Yet Another Cycling Forum
Off Topic => The Pub => Topic started by: hellymedic on 06 August, 2023, 01:03:22 pm
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-66421163 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-66421163)
Oprah Flash reports this hostelry are gutted.
So am I!
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That strikes me as a bit dodgy.
It only changed hands very recently to be used as something other than a pub.
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Cough cough insewerants job cough.
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The ultimate listed building?
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Listing, not listed, unfortunately :(
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Definitely dodgy.
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Crooked end to Crooked House is what I posted elsewhere.
Crooked Usage is another story but houses there are around £3,000,000 now…
https://www.martyngerrard.co.uk/property-for-sale/n3/fin230119/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=cct&utm_medium=social&utm_term=212369%2BMRE37071&fbclid=IwAR0pm68s27sNE0yRUkNVx_tPXTDBqtxlxBvnyWrgyonwVVqbrCKYuMYRnj0 (https://www.martyngerrard.co.uk/property-for-sale/n3/fin230119/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=cct&utm_medium=social&utm_term=212369%2BMRE37071&fbclid=IwAR0pm68s27sNE0yRUkNVx_tPXTDBqtxlxBvnyWrgyonwVVqbrCKYuMYRnj0)
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5917737,-0.2105688,3a,37.5y,109.94h,89.81t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOVwsRhAIo91fYarz1-tbnA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DOVwsRhAIo91fYarz1-tbnA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D101.25822%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5917737,-0.2105688,3a,37.5y,109.94h,89.81t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOVwsRhAIo91fYarz1-tbnA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DOVwsRhAIo91fYarz1-tbnA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D101.25822%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
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Listing, not listed, unfortunately :(
I believe it is, a Grade II listing. Insurance seems a bit blatant, more likely IMO a disgruntled yokel doing the new purchaser out of their gain.
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From what I gather, the building's Listing was open to some debate but I've not read a lot...
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Not listed as listed on the Historic England website.
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Apparently, the band that was due to play there the night it burnt down was called Gasoline & Matches.
Spooky coincidence... OR IS IT???
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Crooked end to Crooked House is what I posted elsewhere.
Crooked Usage is another story but houses there are around £3,000,000 now…
https://www.martyngerrard.co.uk/property-for-sale/n3/fin230119/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=cct&utm_medium=social&utm_term=212369%2BMRE37071&fbclid=IwAR0pm68s27sNE0yRUkNVx_tPXTDBqtxlxBvnyWrgyonwVVqbrCKYuMYRnj0 (https://www.martyngerrard.co.uk/property-for-sale/n3/fin230119/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=cct&utm_medium=social&utm_term=212369%2BMRE37071&fbclid=IwAR0pm68s27sNE0yRUkNVx_tPXTDBqtxlxBvnyWrgyonwVVqbrCKYuMYRnj0)
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5917737,-0.2105688,3a,37.5y,109.94h,89.81t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOVwsRhAIo91fYarz1-tbnA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DOVwsRhAIo91fYarz1-tbnA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D101.25822%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5917737,-0.2105688,3a,37.5y,109.94h,89.81t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOVwsRhAIo91fYarz1-tbnA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DOVwsRhAIo91fYarz1-tbnA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D101.25822%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)
More like 30p in Dudley. You could buy it by skipping one meal.
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At £3m a pop you would think that they would know when and when not to install grey windows.
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It's uncanny how many buildings with difficult planning conditions burn down shortly after being purchased by developers. I can't explain it. Maybe it's aliens.
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Spooky!
All credit to Westminster Council, who insisted a pub was rebuilt brick by brick, when some developers thought they could unmolish a pub under cover of darkness and got Found Out.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-64895756
Norty family knocked a pub down. Have to rebuild it, plus got a fine.
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The Greyhound in Sydenham was oopsy demolished by the developers, who evidently thought no one would notice. Lewisham did and they had to rebuild in its entirety.
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https://www.ourwarwickshire.org.uk/content/article/farewell-great-western-arms-warwick (https://www.ourwarwickshire.org.uk/content/article/farewell-great-western-arms-warwick)
Rather a naïve view. Developers started work to convert it, ran into problems, then left it to deteriorate until scrotes burned it down. It's now a row of mediocre houses in a location that regularly exceeds WHO safe limits on air pollution because of traffic. It was a so-so pub in a very striking building.
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Apparently, the band that was due to play there the night it burnt down was called Gasoline & Matches.
Spooky coincidence... OR IS IT???
Article from local rag here: https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/dudley/2023/08/07/band-with-unfortunate-name-responds-to-awful-coincidence-over-cancelled-crooked-house-gig/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/dudley/2023/08/07/band-with-unfortunate-name-responds-to-awful-coincidence-over-cancelled-crooked-house-gig/)
In another coincidence the morris side featured further down is the one my wife dances with, she is on the far right of the picture.
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BBC Midlands Today had an item this evening where the Fire Brigade chap said that newly tipped mounds of earth were in the lane and driveway leading to the pub, preventing his trucks getting nearer than about 800yards - so much unrolling of hoses and presumably delay in getting the water there.
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The Greyhound in Sydenham was oopsy demolished by the developers, who evidently thought no one would notice. Lewisham did and they had to rebuild in its entirety.
I went past that in a mini-cab whilst it was burning.
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BBC Midlands Today had an item this evening where the Fire Brigade chap said that newly tipped mounds of earth were in the lane and driveway leading to the pub, preventing his trucks getting nearer than about 800yards - so much unrolling of hoses and presumably delay in getting the water there.
Big delay. The despatched response to a bog standard building fire would be 2 trucks here unless there were special circumstances. The compliment of hose on a standard truck in my neck of the woods is 9x25m lengths so you would need at least 4 trucks there before you can even reach 800m. The person in charge of the first two pumps will have requested extra as soon as they arrived and had a few seconds to scope out the problem, but add to that delay the fact that truck 3 and 4 will be coming from further away you presume.
Don’t even ask about issues with pressure loss due to friction over that distance if you can’t get a second and even third pump in the middle of the run somewhere to boost the pressure again. In that situation, you are going to be struggling to get an effective firefighting effort in place in anything like a quick time if all the hose and portable pumps had to be lugged in from 800m away. I have run a water supply in over that kind of distance a couple of times in the past and blowing out of my arse and frothing at the mouth explains the physical result best. No wonder it was a total loss. The fire investigation report will make interesting reading me thinks.
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The Maypole at the end of our street in Brockley disappeared quite quickly. I don't think anyone cried, the one time we went in there, conversation really did stop dead and everyone looked at us. The average prison is probably more welcoming to sex offenders. We left quickly. Some friends of ours made the same mistake and the barman told them the pub was 'full' even though it had two customers. The one thing they didn't need was more bitter. Not that the main trade seemed to be beer, more class A, which meant there was a perma-beef going on between them and the Jamaican Jerk Chicken and Drugs shack under the train bridge. I figured those machetes weren't there for conveniently deboning chicken pieces. Their jerk chicken was very good though and they were cheerful and chatty. Even the police would partake, post the business-as-usual raids (National Rail would demolish their illegal shack every two months or so and it would back within a day, owing to the fact their entire business consisted of some plywood, an oil-drum bbq, and a blackboard for the price list).
Being among the early gentrifiers of SE4 was interesting. Now it's all middle-class mums and dad's with their indulged children, eeking that period of their family lives before they head out for the better schools of the home counties.
If I recall, the Greyhold was already closed, hence the developers chancing it (I didn't realise it had burned, thought they had just demolished it).
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No. It was toast. Onna Xmas eve if I recall. I was on my way home from my Mum's.
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I liked that pub, and when they served Banks' Bitter.
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BBC Midlands Today had an item this evening where the Fire Brigade chap said that newly tipped mounds of earth were in the lane and driveway leading to the pub, preventing his trucks getting nearer than about 800yards - so much unrolling of hoses and presumably delay in getting the water there.
Big delay. The despatched response to a bog standard building fire would be 2 trucks here unless there were special circumstances. The compliment of hose on a standard truck in my neck of the woods is 9x25m lengths so you would need at least 4 trucks there before you can even reach 800m. The person in charge of the first two pumps will have requested extra as soon as they arrived and had a few seconds to scope out the problem, but add to that delay the fact that truck 3 and 4 will be coming from further away you presume.
Don’t even ask about issues with pressure loss due to friction over that distance if you can’t get a second and even third pump in the middle of the run somewhere to boost the pressure again. In that situation, you are going to be struggling to get an effective firefighting effort in place in anything like a quick time if all the hose and portable pumps had to be lugged in from 800m away. I have run a water supply in over that kind of distance a couple of times in the past and blowing out of my arse and frothing at the mouth explains the physical result best. No wonder it was a total loss. The fire investigation report will make interesting reading me thinks.
Hmm. How good are fire hoses at reducing freshly tipped mounds of earth to the sort of muddy puddle you can drive a large vehicle through?
Would still take time, though.
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BBC Midlands Today had an item this evening where the Fire Brigade chap said that newly tipped mounds of earth were in the lane and driveway leading to the pub, preventing his trucks getting nearer than about 800yards - so much unrolling of hoses and presumably delay in getting the water there.
Big delay. The despatched response to a bog standard building fire would be 2 trucks here unless there were special circumstances. The compliment of hose on a standard truck in my neck of the woods is 9x25m lengths so you would need at least 4 trucks there before you can even reach 800m. The person in charge of the first two pumps will have requested extra as soon as they arrived and had a few seconds to scope out the problem, but add to that delay the fact that truck 3 and 4 will be coming from further away you presume.
Don’t even ask about issues with pressure loss due to friction over that distance if you can’t get a second and even third pump in the middle of the run somewhere to boost the pressure again. In that situation, you are going to be struggling to get an effective firefighting effort in place in anything like a quick time if all the hose and portable pumps had to be lugged in from 800m away. I have run a water supply in over that kind of distance a couple of times in the past and blowing out of my arse and frothing at the mouth explains the physical result best. No wonder it was a total loss. The fire investigation report will make interesting reading me thinks.
Hmm. How good are fire hoses at reducing freshly tipped mounds of earth to the sort of muddy puddle you can drive a large vehicle through?
Would still take time, though.
I want to say I have not tested that but I am pretty confident the answer is they would be totally ineffective. It would be very very messy and probably great comedic value unless it was your property that was on fire.
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BBC Midlands Today had an item this evening where the Fire Brigade chap said that newly tipped mounds of earth were in the lane and driveway leading to the pub, preventing his trucks getting nearer than about 800yards - so much unrolling of hoses and presumably delay in getting the water there.
Big delay. The despatched response to a bog standard building fire would be 2 trucks here unless there were special circumstances. The compliment of hose on a standard truck in my neck of the woods is 9x25m lengths so you would need at least 4 trucks there before you can even reach 800m. The person in charge of the first two pumps will have requested extra as soon as they arrived and had a few seconds to scope out the problem, but add to that delay the fact that truck 3 and 4 will be coming from further away you presume.
Don’t even ask about issues with pressure loss due to friction over that distance if you can’t get a second and even third pump in the middle of the run somewhere to boost the pressure again. In that situation, you are going to be struggling to get an effective firefighting effort in place in anything like a quick time if all the hose and portable pumps had to be lugged in from 800m away. I have run a water supply in over that kind of distance a couple of times in the past and blowing out of my arse and frothing at the mouth explains the physical result best. No wonder it was a total loss. The fire investigation report will make interesting reading me thinks.
Hmm. How good are fire hoses at reducing freshly tipped mounds of earth to the sort of muddy puddle you can drive a large vehicle through?
Would still take time, though.
I want to say I have not tested that but I am pretty confident the answer is they would be totally ineffective. It would be very very messy and probably great comedic value unless it was your property that was on fire.
Sounds like it's worth testing, for SCIENCE. Preferably in the front garden of whoever turns out to be responsible...
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Sounds like it's worth testing, for SCIENCE. Preferably in the front garden of whoever turns out to be responsible...
Lack of imagination.
Living room of whoever is responsible...
J
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Sounds like it's worth testing, for SCIENCE. Preferably in the front garden of whoever turns out to be responsible...
Lack of imagination.
Living room of whoever is responsible...
Give the firefighters some credit. I'm sure they'd be perfectly capable of a) sandblasting any wankpanzers etc. in the driveway b) ensuring plenty of run-off into the living room.
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Give the firefighters some credit. I'm sure they'd be perfectly capable of a) sandblasting any wankpanzers etc. in the driveway b) ensuring plenty of run-off into the living room.
Fair.
J
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The pub has now been demolished.
We don't know by whom...
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A handy way of getting rid of any evidence of how the fire was started.
This whole thing stinks.
And not just of smoke.
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It's already been demolished. All very suspicious.
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BBC Midlands Today had an item this evening where the Fire Brigade chap said that newly tipped mounds of earth were in the lane and driveway leading to the pub, preventing his trucks getting nearer than about 800yards - so much unrolling of hoses and presumably delay in getting the water there.
Big delay. The despatched response to a bog standard building fire would be 2 trucks here unless there were special circumstances. The compliment of hose on a standard truck in my neck of the woods is 9x25m lengths so you would need at least 4 trucks there before you can even reach 800m. The person in charge of the first two pumps will have requested extra as soon as they arrived and had a few seconds to scope out the problem, but add to that delay the fact that truck 3 and 4 will be coming from further away you presume.
Don’t even ask about issues with pressure loss due to friction over that distance if you can’t get a second and even third pump in the middle of the run somewhere to boost the pressure again. In that situation, you are going to be struggling to get an effective firefighting effort in place in anything like a quick time if all the hose and portable pumps had to be lugged in from 800m away. I have run a water supply in over that kind of distance a couple of times in the past and blowing out of my arse and frothing at the mouth explains the physical result best. No wonder it was a total loss. The fire investigation report will make interesting reading me thinks.
Hmm. How good are fire hoses at reducing freshly tipped mounds of earth to the sort of muddy puddle you can drive a large vehicle through?
Would still take time, though.
From the TV pix the pile you saw was about 4' high and 10' wide - so substantial (and probably contained bricks and other solid materials?)
Update on the BBC news this morning shows that the burnt out shell has now been completely demolished - ironically the drone shot I saw had 3 of the ubiquitous IKEA high chairs standing by the building!
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It appears that listed building protection doesn't apply if the structure is too far gone to save, which is why it's so suspicious. My guess is that a planning application for a large development is on its way. Hopefully whatever is built subsides like the pub did.
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I don’t think it was listed.
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I don’t think it was listed.
Grade II, apparently.
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Well, if it is Listed it has been done very recently.
Image showing Listed Buildings (I and II) Yellow and Green circles
(http://www.alfiecat.co.uk/yetacf/Listed%20Himley.png)
Image showing the pub
(http://www.alfiecat.co.uk/yetacf/Crooked%20House.png)
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and an aerial shot shows how isolated it is. With landfill to the south and a sewage works to the East. Surrounded by trees. Odd place for a development.
(http://www.alfiecat.co.uk/yetacf/Crooked%20House%20aerial.jpg)
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Golf course?
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Golf course?
There's already one to the North at Himley Hall.
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Often drank in there back in my teens and twenties. A group of us would meet there before going on to other drinking places.
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Golf course?
There's already one to the North at Himley Hall.
The golf course is a social animal, though.
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I'm sure Barratts or Persimmons could rebuild it.
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Wet Midlands mayor has asked to be kept informed of police and fire service investigations; has also asked South Staffs cooncil to make sure it stays a pub.
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The pub has now been demolished.
We don't know by whom...
Yes, on fire very late Saturday, found fully demolished on Monday... :o
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Andy Street calls for Crooked House to be 'rebuilt brick by brick' after Dudley pub demolished
(https://www.itv.com/news/central/2023-08-08/mayor-andy-street-calls-for-crooked-house-pub-to-be-rebuilt-brick-by-brick)
In a separate letter to the Chiefs of Staffordshire Fire and Rescue Service and Staffordshire Police, the duo said they were also "intrigued" by the fact emergency services faced "blocked access when trying to get to the scene" due to a huge pile of dirt in the road and asked to be kept "abreast" of the investigation.
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Andy Street calls for Crooked House to be 'rebuilt brick by brick' after Dudley pub demolished
(https://www.itv.com/news/central/2023-08-08/mayor-andy-street-calls-for-crooked-house-pub-to-be-rebuilt-brick-by-brick)
In a separate letter to the Chiefs of Staffordshire Fire and Rescue Service and Staffordshire Police, the duo said they were also "intrigued" by the fact emergency services faced "blocked access when trying to get to the scene" due to a huge pile of dirt in the road and asked to be kept "abreast" of the investigation.
If they do decide to rebuild it as it was , it'll be quite interesting to see how they manage to rebuild it on the pi$$.
Oh - Did someone mention Barrett's and Persimmons earlier?
Their intervention should do it.
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It's already been demolished. All very suspicious.
Bzzzt!
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Often drank in there back in my teens and twenties. A group of us would meet there before going on to other drinking places.
Visited occasionally when I worked at the Corbett Hospital, Stourbridge & Russells Hall in Dudley. Might have ventured in the neibourhood when my driving instructor had the whim.
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Visited occasionally when I worked at the Corbett Hospital, Stourbridge & Russells Hall in Dudley. .
Those take me back having used them in the 70s, also the Crooked House
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No. It was toast. Onna Xmas eve if I recall. I was on my way home from my Mum's.
I bow to your superior south London lore, that's certainly another mystery, a pub managed to stand empty for several years while not burning down even the once, but soon after it was purchased by a developer, it burnt down and the remains were demolished. What are the odds of that!
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It seems to happen to certain people more than others. Jimmy Godden, god rest his soul, must have been the unluckiest businessman in East Kent - no fewer than three separate theme parks he bought were destroyed by fire leaving him with no option but to redevelop them as housing.
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Visited occasionally when I worked at the Corbett Hospital, Stourbridge & Russells Hall in Dudley. .
Those take me back having used them in the 70s, also the Crooked House
Dudley Health Authority employed me in Autumn 1983 and 1 February 1984 - 31 January 1985.
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It seems to happen to certain people more than others. Jimmy Godden, god rest his soul, must have been the unluckiest businessman in East Kent - no fewer than three separate theme parks he bought were destroyed by fire leaving him with no option but to redevelop them as housing.
[Lady Bracknell] To lose one theme park...
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No. It was toast. Onna Xmas eve if I recall. I was on my way home from my Mum's.
I bow to your superior south London lore, that's certainly another mystery, a pub managed to stand empty for several years while not burning down even the once, but soon after it was purchased by a developer, it burnt down and the remains were demolished. What are the odds of that!
FWIW The Greyhound in Sydenham was rebuilt as a pub, and trades like one to this day. And the Grade II listed bit (some tiles depicting greyhounds) have been re-established in the interior (I thought Grade II applied only to external stuff - but never mind).
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It seems to happen to certain people more than others. Jimmy Godden, god rest his soul, must have been the unluckiest businessman in East Kent - no fewer than three separate theme parks he bought were destroyed by fire leaving him with no option but to redevelop them as housing.
A friend of a friend used to burn cars for a living. If your car had serious mechanical issues or was certain to fail its next MOT, you went to a certain pub at a certain time and your keys were "stolen" by Matt while you were at the bar. He charged £50 for this service, although that was in the late 1980s.
The beauty is that you only needed TPFT insurance.
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On the BBC News right now, complete with small girl pinching bits of b0rked masonry as souvenirs.
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It’s arson
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-65141057
What a surprise!
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It seems to happen to certain people more than others. Jimmy Godden, god rest his soul, must have been the unluckiest businessman in East Kent - no fewer than three separate theme parks he bought were destroyed by fire leaving him with no option but to redevelop them as housing.
A friend of a friend used to burn cars for a living. If your car had serious mechanical issues or was certain to fail its next MOT, you went to a certain pub at a certain time and your keys were "stolen" by Matt while you were at the bar. He charged £50 for this service, although that was in the late 1980s.
The beauty is that you only needed TPFT insurance.
Back in the 80s (before I knew her) my ex and her then husband had a Peugeot 205 that was in no way going to pass its next MOT.
They had it stolen to order.
To this day the 205 is in the concrete, propping up one of the bridges over the M25.
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It’s arson
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-65141057
What a surprise!
Even the PLOD think it's arson; coo, that's QUICK!
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Will they be checking donations to the Police Benevolent fund?
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I can't imagine the evidence trail behind the bulldozer which demolished the ruins will be long & complicated.
Working backwards from there ought to be simple.
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Cough cough insewerants job cough.
Or just remove for redevelopment without the hassle of fighting the council, public protests, etc. Blocking the access road to keep out fire engines was a bit of a giveaway, I think, as was total destruction of what was left almost immediately, making investigation of the cause very difficult.
Stinks to high heaven. And looks very amateurish. Too bloody obvious! And as Helly said.
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There is video of the machinery doing the down-knocking. Even without Hollywood-OS it ought not to be too hard to read the name of the demolition company operating the big yellow thing.
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"Glamorous jet setting business woman, with boobies ! " https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12389385/EXCLUSIVE-Pictured-Glamorous-businesswoman-bought-Britains-wonkiest-pub-just-days-destroyed-fire-demolished-locals-claim-purchase-followed-rows-road-access-neighbouring-land-site-run-husband.html
:sick:
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"The Taylors live in a gated compound between Hinckley and Lutterworth in Leicestershire."
Some people will think they know what that means...
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There is video of the machinery doing the down-knocking. Even without Hollywood-OS it ought not to be too hard to read the name of the demolition company operating the big yellow thing.
Bets on it being owned by the plant hire firm owned by the husband of the woman whose firm bought the pub, & whose landfill firm had a dispute with the pub about the access road . . . . . ?
Which soap opera is this a plot from?
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I had ecology lectures/practicals at Himley Hall during my degree studies. Always headed to the Crooked House for a pint of Banks's Mild and a pie :'(
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Apart from all this innuendo and supposition...
What were Marstons thinking they were doing?!
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"Glamorous jet setting business woman, with boobies ! " https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12389385/EXCLUSIVE-Pictured-Glamorous-businesswoman-bought-Britains-wonkiest-pub-just-days-destroyed-fire-demolished-locals-claim-purchase-followed-rows-road-access-neighbouring-land-site-run-husband.html
:sick:
Any excuse for a massive cleavage shot. Good old Heil.
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Apart from all this innuendo and supposition...
What were Marstons thinking they were doing?!
Making money the best way they know how. Which obviously isn’t beer.
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Apart from all this innuendo and supposition...
It rings pretty much every single alarm bell for it being arson, in fact if it were the plot of a book I would say it was far far too obvious. It’s either dodgy as fook or it is total serial incompetence and bad luck on behalf of the new owner. New owner who wants to guarantee access to an unpopular local business (landfill site), building bought for lots of money and then apparently left totally insecure, access for emergency services blocked, demolished without permission before the investigation was complete and an ownership structure that isn’t transparent with no comment at all from the new owners with regard to their intentions. What doesn’t make sense to me though is if there is any suspicion that a fire might be suspicious then there needs to be chain of custody maintained until all on site investigation is complete which means that there will be a 24 hour police scene guard in place. How did the demolition take place if that was done? Something doesn’t add up.
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Bribery & Corruption - Bent cops? NEVER!
Remote location, August weekend, everyone's away, can't get the staff…
Comical how folk are told not to speculate about all this, mind!
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Has a crime actually been committed? It seems on the face of it that the property may have belonged to the people who set fire to it and also demolished it. Are you allowed to burn your own house down? Probably there was no insurance, anyway. And the house wasn't listed, only listing. Yes, it all stinks to high Heaven but I'll be surprised if any serious prosecutions are brought. Do you need planning permission to demolish a house? Probably, yes, so there might be a retrospective case for the council but that might be about it. I suspect this outfit knows very well what it is doing. That's why they live in a gated establishment. Be nice if they were in a different gated establishment, perhaps, with no matches.
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I'm pretty sure arson is a crime even of your own property and even if no fraud is involved. And for good reason: fire spreads.
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Yes, of course. Hence the need to destroy the evidence quickly. That was silly of me. Still not sure about prosecutions (or at least successful ones), though.
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Arson is a pretty serious crime, not many crimes have longer sentences.
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Yes, I was just being thick, J. I've had a lot of practice!
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Yes, of course. Hence the need to destroy the evidence quickly. That was silly of me. Still not sure about prosecutions (or at least successful ones), though.
The building containing a former colleague's office was torched by its owners as an insurance scam. The perps were convicted on mobile phone location evidence :thumbsup:.
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Note to self: leave phone at home before setting out to burn down the D**ly M**l's HQ.
Omnes: Is that why Bethany got away with it?
Bethany (13): >:(
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Has a crime actually been committed? It seems on the face of it that the property may have belonged to the people who set fire to it and also demolished it. Are you allowed to burn your own house down? Probably there was no insurance, anyway. And the house wasn't listed, only listing. Yes, it all stinks to high Heaven but I'll be surprised if any serious prosecutions are brought. Do you need planning permission to demolish a house? Probably, yes, so there might be a retrospective case for the council but that might be about it. I suspect this outfit knows very well what it is doing. That's why they live in a gated establishment. Be nice if they were in a different gated establishment, perhaps, with no matches.
Have to say that's some of my thinking - if you own a building can you destroy it? (ignore the method for a moment) - provided it's done safely. If it was subject to an insurance claim that's obviously fraud . . but if it isn't? When I had a small farm back in the 1980s I demolished an old barn, nobody seemed bothered.
I guess the question is "do you need unplanning permission to demolish something you own" and whether arson is a crime.
As an aside Clarkson blew up his old house as a stunt on Top Gear, did he have permission?
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Rob, I think I was probably being careless. I imagine arson is a very serious crime partly because of the fact that you can't be certain whether there was anyone in the building when it went up, at least not in every case. I'm doubly surprised at myself because some scrotes set fire to a mill in Rochdale and unintentionally burned a rough sleeper to death. I even wrote a song about it because I was so upset (and I was still writing). It's probably the capital angle that kept arson up with murder and treason as capital offences after the death penalty was abolished for other offences. There was one more, was it piracy?
Either way, this is really shady.
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Have to say that's some of my thinking - if you own a building can you destroy it? (ignore the method for a moment) - provided it's done safely. If it was subject to an insurance claim that's obviously fraud . . but if it isn't? When I had a small farm back in the 1980s I demolished an old barn, nobody seemed bothered.
You need the local authority to grant a demolition notice. I don't know what that involves, other than receiving a copy before they knocked down a neighboring property (Nursing home) some years ago.
Whatever the story here, I suspect it's easier to get planning permission for what's now just land, than to replace a building.
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Torygraph is reporting that the owners hired the demolition equipment days before the fire. Not that bright, then.
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Rob, I think I was probably being careless. I imagine arson is a very serious crime partly because of the fact that you can't be certain whether there was anyone in the building when it went up, at least not in every case. I'm doubly surprised at myself because some scrotes set fire to a mill in Rochdale and unintentionally burned a rough sleeper to death. I even wrote a song about it because I was so upset (and I was still writing). It's probably the capital angle that kept arson up with murder and treason as capital offences after the death penalty was abolished for other offences. There was one more, was it piracy?
IIRC it was high treason, piracy on the high seas and arson in a Royal Navy dockyard. And in Scotland, apparently, unauthorised use of the Royal Standard. Which meant that in theory the Edinburgh chap nicked a few decades back for selling Royal Standard bedspreads without Missis Kwin's permission could have been hanged by the neck utterly to DETH ;D
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Another One Bites The Dust!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-66458716 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-66458716)
I'm no great Harvester fan but wonder what's in the air...
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It seems on the face of it that the property may have belonged to the people who set fire to it and also demolished it.
First, are we assuming they do actually own it outright and don't have any mortgages or suchlike?
Second, I believe a bonfire of that size would need a licence regardless of what is being burned and who owns it.
Rob, I think I was probably being careless. I imagine arson is a very serious crime partly because of the fact that you can't be certain whether there was anyone in the building when it went up, at least not in every case.
It's a fair question though - and like any question you ask on the internet, you are liable to receive multiple definitive and conflicting answers from self-proclaimed experts, so you have to be careful who you believe.
Either way, this is really shady.
Indeed!
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At least the clock seems to have escaped..
(https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/clock-removed-from-crooked-house-fire/)
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According to the legal definition of arson (https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/criminal-damage#:~:text=Section%201(1)%20and%20(,would%20be%20destroyed%20or%20damaged.), it makes as much sense as any other legal definition where in the space of two paragraphs it contradicts from any property to property of another. Bonzer.
Anyway, you can't just have a big bonfire without getting permission from someone more authorative than your mum.
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I imagine the waste site owner and his trophy wife will find their business suffers. Everyone in the West Midlands hates their guts now. The plant hire firm, apparently innocent in all this, has had death threats.
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According to the legal definition of arson (https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/criminal-damage#:~:text=Section%201(1)%20and%20(,would%20be%20destroyed%20or%20damaged.), it makes as much sense as any other legal definition where in the space of two paragraphs it contradicts from any property to property of another. Bonzer.
Anyway, you can't just have a big bonfire without getting permission from someone more authorative than your mum.
It’s the introductory paragraph to arson in general being in the simple arson section.
Simple arson - property of another.
Aggravated arson - any property.
This would almost certainly be charged as aggravated as it was reckless as to whether life would be endangered - it’s not beyond the wit of man to foresee an insecure building attracting squatters or that firefighters might have made entry to the building on fire to check and then be injured or worse.
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Yes, I wasn't clear where 'simple arson' came from, as it wasn't defined. But your interpretation makes sense.
Indeed, aggravated would seem the case, at a minimum, in starting such a fire you endanger the lives of the firefighters and emergency responders.
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/11/crooked-house-burnt-out-pub-historic-landmark
Marina Hyde's take on the whole squalid affair.
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I think the Taylors have totally failed to read the room about The Crooked House.
Loads of pubs go up in smoke after sale, with scant publicity and my partner thinks the reactions have been OTT.
I pointed out I had been there and it's something of a local legend/treasure there's not much else in the Black Country.
Outsiders just don't get the affection the locals hold in their hearts for The Crooked House.
At all.
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Did people actually go there though? You can predict the future of most pubs by visiting at 9pm on a Tuesday evening. I know plenty of people who gripe about their village pub closing but admit they went in about once a year.
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Did people actually go there though? You can predict the future of most pubs by visiting at 9pm on a Tuesday evening. I know plenty of people who gripe about their village pub closing but admit they went in about once a year.
Exactly. Marstons don’t sell profitable pubs.
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At least the clock seems to have escaped..
(https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/clock-removed-from-crooked-house-fire/)
They may have worried about their ability to protect that cherished symbol of the pub's old days after the pub became empty. That could also explain the blocking of the access road, presumable using the digger they'd hired. How silly of the operator to box it in! Nobody could have expected its continued presence to become fortuitous soon afterwards.
Post-fire pictures show outbuildings on the site which appear completely undamaged. Flattened now. Obviously, the Taylors found it too upsetting to be reminded of the sad fate of their pride & joy by seeing its associated buildings.
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Did people actually go there though? You can predict the future of most pubs by visiting at 9pm on a Tuesday evening. I know plenty of people who gripe about their village pub closing but admit they went in about once a year.
Exactly. When our village pub went bust about ten years ago the owners held a big last night do. It was rammed with people who I had never seen in the pub before. The owners had a right laugh charging them well over the odds for drinks whilst charging everyone who had supported the pub about 10p a pint. At 11:00pm they gave a speech about use it or lose it then kicked out those who never drank there, locked the doors and then all drinks were free for those who had been regulars.
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Puncbbowl Inn MUST be rebuilt..
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-66498496.amp)
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It’s now reported that security has had to stepped up in the vicinity of a well known tall building in Pisa.
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More cultural vandalism getting its comeuppance:
“Great Musgrave Bridge: 'Steady progress' in concrete removal
The infilling is estimated to have cost NH £124,000 with a further amount of up to £431,000 said to have been allocated for the removal works.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cumbria-66498947
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They've infilled dozens of old railway bridges, often ones that had planned conversions to cycle-walk paths.
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Latest… https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-66514759?fbclid=IwAR0RlM3cwZ_VqfIVYJMbHa910qCgBTlFArLM8jLCfs3ZXmRWEoh0OsQji6c (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-66514759?fbclid=IwAR0RlM3cwZ_VqfIVYJMbHa910qCgBTlFArLM8jLCfs3ZXmRWEoh0OsQji6c)
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Mr Bond, they have a saying in Chicago…
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Has a crime actually been committed? It seems on the face of it that the property may have belonged to the people who set fire to it and also demolished it. Are you allowed to burn your own house down? Probably there was no insurance, anyway. And the house wasn't listed, only listing. Yes, it all stinks to high Heaven but I'll be surprised if any serious prosecutions are brought. Do you need planning permission to demolish a house? Probably, yes, so there might be a retrospective case for the council but that might be about it. I suspect this outfit knows very well what it is doing. That's why they live in a gated establishment. Be nice if they were in a different gated establishment, perhaps, with no matches.
Have to say that's some of my thinking - if you own a building can you destroy it? (ignore the method for a moment) - provided it's done safely. If it was subject to an insurance claim that's obviously fraud . . but if it isn't? When I had a small farm back in the 1980s I demolished an old barn, nobody seemed bothered.
I guess the question is "do you need unplanning permission to demolish something you own" and whether arson is a crime.
According to C4 News just now there are special rules for pubs, which need permission for demolition or change of use. Which in their case they had not got.
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Latest… Bit careless with the matches? (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-66514759)
Is this whole thing based on some little known and even more rarely screened 1950s Ealing Films comedy? If it's not, it ought to be.
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According to C4 News just now there are special rules for pubs, which need permission for demolition or change of use. Which in their case they had not got.
This has long been a campaigning issue for CAMRA, who are of the view that it's far too easy for permission to be granted for change of use for pubs - witness the number of pubs that are closing all the time.
Interesting that the owners of the CH had failed in that.
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Paranormal society keeps night’s watch on Crooked House pub site
(https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/22/paranormal-society-nights-watch-crooked-house-pub-site)
As large building machinery started arriving on the site of the Crooked House pub on Monday night, fears for the remains of the much-loved building grew – with locals wondering what might happen to it under the cover of darkness.
But one group of people used to staying up all night – the Black Country Paranormal Society – stepped in to guard the site perimeter and make sure all remaining bricks made it to the morning.
“We did some paranormal investigating, and we did capture some stuff. But my main purpose here right now is to make sure there is no further destruction because if we’re trying to get this rebuilt, we don’t want these bricks here being turned to dust,” said Pearkes.
“The wanton destruction we’ve seen has angered me so much, and the people around here are very robust, very honest, we don’t take any nonsense.”
“I think people are worried about what is going to happen to the foundations and the footings – as soon as they touch them, there’s no chance of a rebuild here,” added Kerry Goodman, 36, a fellow protester. “Whatever they do, we want them to do it with care, we don’t want them flinging bricks about.”
While local people carried out their round-the-clock guard of the pub perimeter, the building’s new owner, Carly Taylor, and her husband, Adam Taylor, who is closely linked to the sale, were pictured on holiday at a luxury villa in Corfu, where they allegedly told reporters they were trying to get away from the “lies and bullshit in England”.
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Two people arrested:
Two men have been arrested on suspicion of arson over a fire that tore through the Crooked House pub.
...
A 66-year-old man from Dudley and a 33-year-old man from Milton Keynes are being questioned over the fire.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-66608279
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Reminds me - I must watch "Nice Work" again.
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And a 51 year-old man now. Here is a 51 year-old man.
https://m.sundayworld.com/crime/world-crime/convicted-irish-drug-smuggler-linked-to-demolition-of-britains-wonkiest-pub/a2000179660.html
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And a 51 year-old man now. Here is a 51 year-old man.
https://m.sundayworld.com/crime/world-crime/convicted-irish-drug-smuggler-linked-to-demolition-of-britains-wonkiest-pub/a2000179660.html
Nice fellow
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I drove by the owner's house a couple of days ago.
Sadly, it wasn't on fire.
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Yet............... ;)
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I drove by the owner's house a couple of days ago.
Sadly, it wasn't on fire.
100% it will have a sex pond and an outdoor TV.
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I drove by the owner's house a couple of days ago.
Sadly, it wasn't on fire.
100% it will have a sex pond and an outdoor TV.
And two Range Rovers.
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Torygraph is reporting that the owners hired the demolition equipment days before the fire. Not that bright, then.
Not when Mr Scum owns a company allegedly hiring and selling heavy plant machinery.
The funny thing is, no one around here ever sees these alleged vehicles being moved down the tiny lane from their compound at Lutterworth.
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And the latest instalment in the saga: Man held after violence at Crooked House site (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-66812448)
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Crooked House, crooked people.
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More arrests:
https://www.expressandstar.com/news/crime/2023/09/28/man-and-woman-arrested-in-connection-with-suspected-crooked-house-arson/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/crime/2023/09/28/man-and-woman-arrested-in-connection-with-suspected-crooked-house-arson/)
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More arrests:
https://www.expressandstar.com/news/crime/2023/09/28/man-and-woman-arrested-in-connection-with-suspected-crooked-house-arson/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/crime/2023/09/28/man-and-woman-arrested-in-connection-with-suspected-crooked-house-arson/)
Coincidentally the director of the pubs owners, ATE Farms, was born in 1988, making her approxinately 34.
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https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/23411896/crooked-house-carly-taylor-bought-pub-jetsetter/
Ages both fit. What a remarkable coincidence.
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https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/23910157.arsonist-jailed-setting-fire-home-penhill/
Evidence that it is arson if you burn your own home.
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That contract did you a lot of good..
https://www.expressandstar.com/news/property/2023/11/13/plant-hire-firm-that-supplied-excavator-for-crooked-house-demolition-enters-liquidation/ (https://www.expressandstar.com/news/property/2023/11/13/plant-hire-firm-that-supplied-excavator-for-crooked-house-demolition-enters-liquidation/)
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Looks like they're going to have to rebuild it https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-68414524
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It requires the building to be built back to what it was prior to the fire.
I would imagine that it would be quite tricky to construct.
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How easy will it be to enforce the rebuild? What if ATE Farms finds itself having to declare bankruptcy?
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It requires the building to be built back to what it was prior to the fire.
I would imagine that it would be quite tricky to construct.
I'm sure Barratt or Persimmon could fall to the occasion....
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How easy will it be to enforce the rebuild? What if ATE Farms finds itself having to declare bankruptcy?
That seems extremely likely, but hopefully it will give the scrotes a suitably uncomfortable time.
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How easy will it be to enforce the rebuild? What if ATE Farms finds itself having to declare bankruptcy?
Has one of the directors already distanced themselves
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Looks like they're going to have to rebuild it https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-68414524
Hahahaha hahahaha
J
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxx8wpgnk78o
I'm guessing that'll be a firm "No!" from Mr Prosser
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The owners also said they were "not in any way responsible" for the fire which broke out on 5 August and destroyed a substantial part of the pub structure.
Yeah right!
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It requires the building to be built back to what it was prior to the fire.
I would imagine that it would be quite tricky to construct.
I'm sure Barratt or Persimmon could fall to the occasion....
It's an interesting problem since it's probable the structure was crooked from side to side and also front to back. A set of carefully adapted spirit levels would probably be the answer. And of course the plumbing and guttering...
The whole project could make an excellent tourist attraction.
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The request to rebuild it in a better location is, IMO, reasonable. I've known, one way or another, of too many businesses failing due to initial interest followed by 'can't be bothered to go there'.
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If it’s rebuilt in another location, it will be just another ticky-tacky plastic pub, lacking authenticity.
Getting out of Dudley to the Crooked House, made the trip a real outing.