Rohloff random loss of drive following oil change

[Neilatclyro]

I've bought a secondhand Roberts Roughstuff with a Rohloff hub, internal shifter.  I rode it a couple of times (say around 40k total, some 10k off road) after buying it and it seemed fine, though it did once find a neutral shifting to a low gear whilst climbing clipped in which dumped me painfully on the road.  I put this down to my inexperience in shifting it.  The previous owner had said he had changed the oil regularly, but didn't specify when the last change was done, so I bought an oil change kit from SJS and did an oil change after the first couple of rides as a precaution and so I knew when to do the next one.  After the oil change (I did the agitating of the cleaning oil as described by Rohloff - spinning for 5 mins on the stand and shifting the gears throughout),  the hub seems to find 'neutrals' with a 'not quite engaged gear noise' at random - usually on a 5/6/5 or 10/11/10 shift, sometimes in 13.  Frequency is about 1 in 20-30 shifts if shifting 10-11-10 all on the workstand.  The 'neutrals' still occur if I disconnect the cables to the handlebar shifter and shift using the tails from the hub shifter pulley loop.   It definitely feels like the occurrence rate is a lot higher after the oil change - I only really remember the one occurrence mentioned above before the oil change. The Rohloff manual does list 'loss of drive following oil change' with a fix of ' change the oil' (presumably 'again').

So... 1) I've ordered a bigger pot of oil and cleaning oil and will do a re-flush and maybe put nearer a full dose of 25ml of oil rather than the 15ml that comes with a single kit.

1) I've also ordered the hub shifting cable and pulley from SJS.  I'll change this if the second oil flush and change doesn't fix it

After that I'm out of ideas-I've checked the QR isn't too tight and the drain plug has a good 1mm sticking out.  It's not that cold here ( 4deg C at worst).

Am I missing something or have I bought a duff secondhand Rohloff - it and the bike don't look that well used? 

Any suggestions gratefully received.  I didn't think the Rohloff would remind me of a Sturmey 4speed

Regards

Neil       

[Phil21]

Can't help with your specific problem I'm afraid, but Thorn do have their own forum at https://www.thorncyclesforum.co.uk/ where it might be worth asking too.

Good luck (my first Rohloff broke and the remedy was "send it back to SJS and get it serviced" - I suspect they just replaced all the inner workings rather than try and find the part that was broken )

[Wowbagger]

I've done over 50,000 miles on different Rohloff hubs, and have changed the oil a reasonably appropriate number of times.

Very occasionally, I've not found the right gear first time, and lost traction briefly when I've been "between gears" as it were. But I've never come close to being dumped in the road.

I do recall an issue quite a few years back when there seemed to be extra pedalling resistance, and this was cured by bashing the spindle with a mallet (described somewhere in the instruction manual. I've forgotten what caused that now, but a site search might reveal the discussion. I recall discussing the issue on here and it caused a number of raised eyebrows and some amusement amongst the kibitzers.

I hope you can get it sorted out quickly, and without great expense.

[hbunnet]

You can eliminate cold às à problem.  When I was in  Norway I used my Rohloff down to -20⁰C without problems and using normal Rohloff oil.

[Paul H]

I assume from your description that it's an internal shift mechanism with cable coming from the hub, rather than an external  with a cable box that unscrews?  If so, it could be that the cable isn't well wrapped on the pulley, take it off and have a look, check for any fraying, it isn't a big job but a bit daunting first time. There should also be some slack in the cable, there's no indexing that requires them to be under tension. There should be a noticeable clunk when you change gear, even more noticeable when pulling the cables with the shifter detached. I'd say there's more chance of it being cable than internals, though anything is possible.
Couple of other things to check:
The oil port drain screw shouldn't be screwed in flush, I don't know what problem it causes, but there's warnings against doing so.
There are a pair of pawl springs under the shifter cap,  these can weaken with age and it's a cheap and easy replacement, though I thought they could only cause slipping in lower gears. You can see them at 1:12 on this vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGNFZjavXcI

Rohloff's advice now is to use 15ml of oil, I can't see how sticking with the original 25ml recommendation does any harm, but 15ml leaves less to leak out. 

Good luck

[Neilatclyro]

Thanks, everyone for your replies and suggestions.  I'll keep you posted.

If the worst comes to the worst I have a nice Roberts Roughstuff that I can rebuild with a derailleur , though part of the motivation for getting it was to experience a Rohloff.

Cheers

Neil

[Paul H]

If the worst comes to the worst I have a nice Roberts Roughstuff that I can rebuild with a derailleur

Hopefully it won't come to that, if you get stumped, you could slide the inners out and have a look, it's pretty simple and there's youtube guides.  You probably can't fix anything, but you might be able to see any breakages, or corrosion, or if it's had water sat in it.  If it doesn't look to be abused, Rohloff have a good reputation for sorting things out economically, IMO you're best going via SJS.  If it does show signs of abuse, I'd still talk to SJS, though I'd be realistic about whether they owed me any favours.
My money is still on it being a cable issue, I wouldn't do anything else till I was sure I'd eliminated that.

[Neilatclyro]

Hi Paul,

I'm going to change the cable first as you advise.  I've ordered the Rohloff hub cable easy set and SJS say its on its way.  I'm crossing my fingers that it's just the cable.

Many thanks

neil

[Neilatclyro]

OK, just an update.  I've changed the (internal mech) hub cable, done an oil change, changed the two little springs, checked cable tensions (tried lots of variations) and done another oil change- with no consistent change in the hub behaviour.  Once in a while (and too often for confidence) the gear just doesn't engage for several spins of the cranks, but always eventually engages.  A back pedal sometimes seems to do the trick.  However, whilst this is tolerable on normal road spins, it is intolerable when climbing a steep back lane hill or even worse when riding Roughstuff tracks with climbs -which is the main use case for this bike.  By comparison my Alfine 8 on my MTB never misses a beat.  It will be hard to persuade me of the 'reliability' of a Rohloff in future and I can see that I will eventually revert the bike to a well known Japanese derailleur.

Many thanks for all the suggestions.

Neil   

[Neilatclyro]

An update to the above posts - I am now not getting the problems of finding neutrals anymore.  I just took the rough stuff out for a ride one day and found I hadn't had any issues.  I've since done a lot more miles on it with no further issues.  I can only think of two possible reasons for this :  1). I got used to the technique for shifting a Rohloff or 2). Usage and the effects of two oil changes removed some internal gum in the Rohloff works  or otherwise free'd up the mechanism (I've since had to do another oil change from riding through local floods that went over hub depth).  Anyway I am now enjoying riding the Rohloff equipped Roberts. Many thanks again for everyone's useful suggestions.