Choosing an E-Bike

[ElyDave]

Paging Mr Wowbagger to the white courtesy phone, and anyone else who might help, of course.

My dad, now 75 is looking to get he and mum some e-bikes.  He's been looking around the £1500 mark I think at the moment which I said was probably very low end in terms of spec of batteries and control systems, adn he needed to probably double the budget.  Mum will need a step through/sit up and beg type frame for sure, dad is also probably past getting his leg over the top tube to be honest.

So any suggestions of brands/models and ideally dealers as well.  They are in Kirkby Stephen, Cumbria, so Kendal, Penrith both well in range, also places like Newcastle, Durham, Carlisle and so on.

Also interested in things like range and so on as well as cost.  I think Wow has mentioned 70 miles or so off a charge depending on how hard you are pushing those voles?

Cheers
Dave

[robgul]

I have a "road" e-bike so not suitable - having had 2 e-bikes one with charge in-situ battery (Orbea) and one with removable battery (Boardman) go for the latter - obviously more convenient for charging AND it's a good idea to keep the battery in a warmish place when not in use to extend its life.

The mid-motor models are in my view the best but are the priciest - for in-wheel motors go for rear wheel, not front wheel as steering gets a bit heavy.

Wheelbase at Staveley (Kendal) is a BIG shop and worth a look - last time I was there you could ride bikes around in the shop!

[Paul H]

Bosch have a range calculator on the website which I've found to be reasonably accurate, it's probably compatible with other similar mid drive motors:
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant

Then for hybrid style bikes I'd suggest first choosing the motor and battery capacity.  When I was looking I fond there to be more difference between those than between the bikes. I chose a Bosch CX motor and the cheapest bike I could find with it, at a time of low stock that was a Trek Allant.  I've been very happy with it, though I expect I'd have been equally happy with any of a dozen alternatives around the same price. I only use mine for urban riding, mostly delivering, I can eke out 70 miles from a battery or burn through one in 30.
Some Halfords stores offer E-bikes on a day loan, they might not have the specific bike you're interested in, but they might have enough variety to get a feel for the differences.

[rr]

I refer the gentleman to my for sale link, ideal for your mum.
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyacf%2Eco%2Euk%2Fforum%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D125931%2E0&share_tid=125931&share_fid=25936&share_type=t&link_source=app

Forme Morley 2e e-bike

[rr]

I refer the gentleman to my for sale link, ideal for your mum.
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?url=https%3A%2F%2Fyacf%2Eco%2Euk%2Fforum%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D125931%2E0&share_tid=125931&share_fid=25936&share_type=t&link_source=app

Forme Morley 2e e-bike

Photos and full description here
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1403700610424693/

[Canardly]

I very nearly bought a reduced price Whyte 506 as a do everything bike. They have quite a good spec including a Bosch CX 85nm motor but a somewhat limited battery at 500w and a limited rear rack capacity of 20kg. Whyte is out of stock and appears to have stopped listing them for future orders. Several retailers including Evans are heavily discounting at £1,000 below MSRP, so it appears they are not moving or are end of line.  I have now changed my mind as the Bosch calculator indicates a fairly limited range for distance riding for this combination which I suspect is behind the sale price. Batteries are around £900 so that is not an upgrade option for me.

[hubner]

https://www.evanscycles.com/brand/raleigh/raleigh-motus-lowstep-electric-hybrid-bike-713904#colcode=71390415
Raleigh Motus LowStep Electric Hybrid Bike
£1,539.00 £2,200.00 (30% OFF)

Also this cheaper one:
https://www.evanscycles.com/raleigh-raleigh-array-low-step-exclusive-electric-hybrid-bike-917891#colcode=91789118

both have 400wh batteries.

[S1966W]

I fitted a front hub conversion to a tandem with 17AH  battery about 5 years ago (circa £500). Admittedly it has only done about 3000 miles in the succeeding 5 years but it has given no problems and, should I require any spares they are readily available and still compatible.

The company I purchased from was WOOSH bikes of Southend on Sea: https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?bikes and all dealings with them during and after the purchase were ace!!

They offer a limited range of complete e-bikes (including stepthrough) plus the conversion kits (hub and BB). Maybe worth a look?

I would really consider buying a half decent bike and retrofitting an electric conversion kit, it's not hard and you tend to get a much cheaper and more practical machine for your endeavours.

Some of these new bespoke ebikes certainly look the business, but you are paying a huge amount for something which when it goes wrong in the future may be quite difficult to source spares for and you're left with a bit of a Frankenbike.

[Kim]

That's a fair point.  Conversion kits seem to be the only way to properly future-proof the bike (in as much that you can replace all the electrickery, if necessary).  The flip side of that is that most conversions don't do torque/cadence sensing, which makes the experience more like riding a motorbike than cycling with a massive tailwind, and it won't be as neatly integrated as a factory-built ebike.  How much that matters is one of those YMMV things.

[T42]

That's a fair point.  Conversion kits seem to be the only way to properly future-proof the bike (in as much that you can replace all the electrickery, if necessary).  The flip side of that is that most conversions don't do torque/cadence sensing, which makes the experience more like riding a motorbike than cycling with a massive tailwind, and it won't be as neatly integrated as a factory-built ebike.  How much that matters is one of those YMMV things.

As I've observed before, there are two ways to ride an electric bike: sack-o'spuds mode and battery-conservation mode.  In the former you put the thing in a biggish gear and turn the pedals sedatedly while the motor whines its guts out and the battery level does down like O'Slattery's leaden Y-fronts, but in the latter you pedal as hard as necessary to keep the charge indicator looking happy.  I can drain* a 250 Wh battery in 50 km or get 100 km out of it depending.

* to about 10% of capacity to stay safe.  El Prez's Bosch motor cuts out at 5%.

[Kim]

Indeed.  And if you're only going to be doing the former, the advantages of posh mid-drive systems with their controlled application of power are moot.

[Cudzoziemiec]

In terms of conversion kits, someone I know ordered a Swytch kit in November. Delivery time: in May. Your patience might vary, ect ect.

[CAMRAMan]

Woosh are very helpful, should you go down the conversion route. I converted two bikes in a day last summer, so it's not tricky. The main hurdles weren't related to the kits either.

I've had FWD, RWD and mid-drive bikes and much prefer the latter. As pointed out elsewhere though, Bosch and Yamaha batteries are very expensive, so if offered an option when buying a bike, go for the highest capacity available.

www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum might be another place to seek guidance.

[Paul H]

you are paying a huge amount for something which when it goes wrong in the future may be quite difficult to source spares for and you're left with a bit of a Frankenbike.

This is often highlighted as an issue, but I'm skeptical that it matches the reality.  Bosch have said they intend to keep spares available for ten years after production ceases, though it falls short of a guarantee. A full motor re-build is around £130, battery life is expected to be at least 500 cycles before it's degraded to 80% and replacements are around £500.  How much of a future are people expecting from these machines?  I've had mine three years and the model was already a couple of years old, though I got the latest software update, it's already a bit dated.  If it lasts another five years I'll consider I've had good value and I doubt I'd want to replace like with like.

[hubner]

My cheapo ebike with a rear hub motor has a cadence sensor and three assist modes. I can ride it as if it were a low powered motor bike by soft pedalling (turning the pedals slowly without pressing down) and the bike would go almost up to the cut out speeds, maybe around 13-14mph on the high mode. At least on the flat with no wind.

That's how I rode it for a few months because the chain and sprockets were completely worn out, the chain was jumping with only a gentle push down on the pedals, I also had to walk up steep hills as the motor doesn't have enough torque. Yes the battery drains really quickly compared to even gentle pedalling.

I haven't ridden a bike with a torque sensor but apparently the harder you pedal the more assist you get, although I don't know how hard you have to pedal to get the full assist, I suppose it varies with different bike, and could be adjusted with an app like some bikes have.

I'm happy with the cadence sensor as I treat riding my ebike on my 13 mile each way commute as a "rest day". The other days I ride my normal bikes.

[Blade]

I recently converted my recumbent trike using a Bafang mid-drive motor and have currently done 350 miles using the system.

As others have said, it can be a bit like riding a motor bike should you choose to do it. But by tuning the motor with an app to set the amount of assistance given for each assist level it can feel more like riding a normal bike.

I sometimes refer to riding an e-assist machine as 'seductive', as sometimes it's quite tempting to ride with such a high level of assist that it  makes climbing steep hills a pleasurable experience.

I recently viewed a Youtube video where the presenter talked about the incompatibility between e-bike brands and equipment. There doesn't seem to be a standard for batteries and connectors between brands and new models are often not backwards compatible. That's probably to tie a purchaser to a particular manufacturer.

[Kim]

My cheapo ebike with a rear hub motor has a cadence sensor and three assist modes. I can ride it as if it were a low powered motor bike by soft pedalling (turning the pedals slowly without pressing down) and the bike would go almost up to the cut out speeds, maybe around 13-14mph on the high mode. At least on the flat with no wind.

This is probably just a boolean pedal-rotation-in-the-forwards-direction sensor, in terms of the signal it sends to the controller.

I haven't ridden a bike with a torque sensor but apparently the harder you pedal the more assist you get, although I don't know how hard you have to pedal to get the full assist, I suppose it varies with different bike, and could be adjusted with an app like some bikes have.

Depends on what power level you have the assistance set to, how the torque sensor is calibrated, and some mathematical voodoo in the controller firmware that maps one to another.  Since a torque sensor automatically gives you a cadence signal, they tend to factor that into the mix too.  So you can achieve a high level of assistance by pressing hard or by spinning like a maniac, which is generally what you want.  Not having a 'dead zone' in the middle is the clever bit, along with graceful (or not) application of power when starting off, and backing off sensibly as the speed limit is reached, rather than oscillating around the limit point.  These things all vary a lot between systems and manufacturers, so they can have a very different 'feel'.  And that's before you factor in gearing etc.

My usual advice is to ride a few different systems and see what you like.  For these purposes it doesn't matter too much what bike they're attached to, though you sometimes come across weird gearing choices.

[cycleman]

My bafang system on my trice adventure is a few years old now and I only use it for mainly local rides at level 4 or 5 .around 30 miles range these days. I am thinking about removing it as the battery is old and I keep seeing reports of house fires caused by e bike battery's..decisions decisions 😑

[L CC]

I haven't ridden a bike with a torque sensor but apparently the harder you pedal the more assist you get, although I don't know how hard you have to pedal to get the full assist, I suppose it varies with different bike, and could be adjusted with an app like some bikes have.

Depends on what power level you have the assistance set to, how the torque sensor is calibrated, and some mathematical voodoo in the controller firmware that maps one to another.  Since a torque sensor automatically gives you a cadence signal, they tend to factor that into the mix too.  So you can achieve a high level of assistance by pressing hard or by spinning like a maniac, which is generally what you want.  Not having a 'dead zone' in the middle is the clever bit, along with graceful (or not) application of power when starting off, and backing off sensibly as the speed limit is reached, rather than oscillating around the limit point. 

Mine has a torque sensor and operates by matching that. It feels like I imagine being half my weight with the same power would feel like. The only 'woah!' moment I get is when I reach the top of a hill on max assist and my input which has previously led to 15kph suddenly gives me >25kph and the motor instantly cuts out. It doesn't ease in or ease out- and I don't think there are (m?)any that do? It's a fairly top-of-the-range model I'm operating.
I expect my bike to last another 4 or 5 years. The motor & battery are already out of warranty- but then if I'd bought a new muscle-bike with Di2, that would be too.

[TimO]

It might be worth keeping an eye on Wiggle / ChainReaction, as they have some good discounts in their sale at the moment, and something appropriate may appear, however it does sound like you're more interested in a brick and mortar retailer, so that things can be tried out in person.

At the moment there's an Urban e-bike at 60% off, and I ordered (and have since had delivered) a Vitus e-bike at a mere 40% discount, although that was a gravel bike with drops, which I don't think is close to what you're considering.

[rr]

I was I decathlon yesterday and the staff were trying out the latest model which has an automatic gearbox and motor in the middle, they were impressed.

[TimO]

I was I decathlon yesterday and the staff were trying out the latest model which has an automatic gearbox and motor in the middle, they were impressed.

Interesting, although that's even more non-standard stuff to go wrong, and be hard to replace, potentially leaving you with an extremely non-standard frame.

Mid-motors have that issue far more than front and rear wheel motors. I'm hoping that the easily removable Fazua motor with my Vitus bike, means that at worst I'd have to find some way to repair or replace the special bottom bracket, which may be more feasible than doing that for an entire motor. I could just not use the drivepack, and cycle the 4½kg lighter bike, unmotorised.

[TimO]

... the latest model which has an automatic gearbox and motor in the middle ...

Was it this bike?

  Long-Distance Automatic Owuru Motor High Frame Electric City Bike LD 920 E

I can't help thinking that the manufacturers are getting a bit creative with the specifications. That webpage says:

 250 W nominal power
 600 W peak power

I thought that UK rules said that the motor had to max out at 250W, which that seems to contradict. They appear to be working on the principle that the nominal power is 250W, and that's what cannot be exceeded. Presumably they've carefully read the actual legislation, and think they've found a loophole. Is there a lawyer in the house?

 Electric bikes: licensing, tax and insurance (www.gov.uk).

[rr]

... the latest model which has an automatic gearbox and motor in the middle ...

Was it this bike?

  Long-Distance Automatic Owuru Motor High Frame Electric City Bike LD 920 E

I think so

[Kim]

I thought that UK rules said that the motor had to max out at 250W, which that seems to contradict. They appear to be working on the principle that the nominal power is 250W, and that's what cannot be exceeded. Presumably they've carefully read the actual legislation, and think they've found a loophole. Is there a lawyer in the house?

 Electric bikes: licensing, tax and insurance (www.gov.uk).

The legislation itself refers to "maximum continuous rated power". 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/24/regulation/2/made

Which is just as well, because you can imagine how well it would go if you had to explain things like instantaneous power, inrush current and back-EMF to law enforcement.