Author Topic: Home Energy Smart Meters  (Read 22239 times)

citoyen

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #75 on: 10 October, 2018, 03:55:48 pm »
The difference is that domestic users now have more reactive loads (typically capacitive things like DC power supplies, rather than inductive motors), and - critically - with an electronic meter, it's possible to measure apparent power cheaply at point-of-use.

Right. So this is why you shouldn't leave phone chargers plugged in and switched on when not actually in use?

Will the current generation of smart meters actually measure reactive power?
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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #76 on: 10 October, 2018, 04:18:48 pm »
an estimation algorithm that includes i

On which note, I expect that once modern electronic meters are sufficiently rolled out, energy companies will start billing domestic customers for reactive power.

Which is fair enough in my book - the only reason they aren't is that traditional electromechanical meters only measure real power, and in the days when most domestic loads were resisitve it made a vanishingly small difference.  But it's going to come as a bit of a shock when people discover how nasty the power factor of their cheap shitty LED lighting from China is.  Expect power-factor correction to be the new eco ratings.

Could you translate this into English for those of us who only got a B in GCSE physics?

We're getting a smart meter installed next week. Not entirely sure why.

Here's another question: if a smart meter works by sending signals over the mobile cell network or wifi, presumably that means it is itself using power, so am I getting charged for that power use? If so... Chiz!

Ours has a battery and is permanently plugged into the mains via an adapter.

That's not the smart meter. The smart meter is the thing in the cupboard/elsewhere that you incoming electricity/gas supply comes through. It'll be about 30x15x12cm with an LED display and/or other blinkenlights.

The little monitoring thing that you plug in to get a reading of things is a completely separate item and isn't responsible for uploading any of your readings. Mine went to the small electrical items recycling area at the local tip.
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Kim

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #77 on: 10 October, 2018, 04:20:34 pm »
The difference is that domestic users now have more reactive loads (typically capacitive things like DC power supplies, rather than inductive motors), and - critically - with an electronic meter, it's possible to measure apparent power cheaply at point-of-use.

Right. So this is why you shouldn't leave phone chargers plugged in and switched on when not actually in use?

The main reason for doing that is so they don't catch fire.  (Top tip: Don't buy cheap shitty pink USB chargers from China)

But also because energy saving advice gets oversimplified.  "Turn appliances off when not in use." is a catchier message than "Caclulate the tradeoff between your device's standby load, the increased wear on the switch[1], and the inconvenience of having to cold boot it each time you use it.", especially when most people have no idea what the standby load of a given appliance actually is.

You can run a lot of idle phone chargers for the energy wasted boiling a full kettle when you only need one cup.


Quote
Will the current generation of smart meters actually measure reactive power?

I'm sure some of them can (It's been a while since I flipped through the menus on ours).  They'll be using real power for billing purposes, though.


[1] Cooker and shower isolator switches are a favourite here - they're designed to be a safety isolator, not a service switch, and wear out relatively quickly if frobbed on a daily basis.  How much power do you have to save not running that little neon light before you've covered the cost (monetary or environmental) of a replacement switch?

hellymedic

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #78 on: 10 October, 2018, 05:32:14 pm »
an estimation algorithm that includes i

On which note, I expect that once modern electronic meters are sufficiently rolled out, energy companies will start billing domestic customers for reactive power.

Which is fair enough in my book - the only reason they aren't is that traditional electromechanical meters only measure real power, and in the days when most domestic loads were resisitve it made a vanishingly small difference.  But it's going to come as a bit of a shock when people discover how nasty the power factor of their cheap shitty LED lighting from China is.  Expect power-factor correction to be the new eco ratings.

Could you translate this into English for those of us who only got a B in GCSE physics?

We're getting a smart meter installed next week. Not entirely sure why.

Here's another question: if a smart meter works by sending signals over the mobile cell network or wifi, presumably that means it is itself using power, so am I getting charged for that power use? If so... Chiz!

Ours has a battery and is permanently plugged into the mains via an adapter.

That's not the smart meter. The smart meter is the thing in the cupboard/elsewhere that you incoming electricity/gas supply comes through. It'll be about 30x15x12cm with an LED display and/or other blinkenlights.

The little monitoring thing that you plug in to get a reading of things is a completely separate item and isn't responsible for uploading any of your readings. Mine went to the small electrical items recycling area at the local tip.

Our main meter is in the cupboard on the outdoor wall by the front door.
The monitor is ignored.

Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #79 on: 11 October, 2018, 07:12:49 am »
Gas smart meter (not that ours is smart any more). No obvious battery replacement, certainly not user serviceable. Does that mean there's an imp inside, who survives on natural gas, or is that a once-in-10-years visit to replace a lithium cell? Also, AIUI, the gas comms go through the electric which means that the energy Cos have to play nice together..... or does it?

Kim

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #80 on: 11 October, 2018, 11:28:27 am »
Yeah, it'll be a 10-year primary lithium battery, like the quantum meters.  It speaks Zigbee (a wireless protocol almost, but not quite entirely, unlike Bluetooth) to the electricity meter, which has mains power available for the cellular comms.  Presumably it's able to smartly ask for a new battery as the voltage drops, though whether that's implemented properly in the back-end is anyone's guess.

When I was a PSO, our quantum gas meter had a bat flattery, and we had to invoke a gas man to come and replace it.  This was complicated by us naughtily not having a gas (or electricity) supplier, after previously nobbling a fraudulent attempt to sign us up as customers by the infamous London Electricity cold-callers.  We'd been happily taking the card/key to the local newsagent to add credit, and the meters had been dispensing overpriced energy, but apparently our supply existed in a superposed state and attempting to get the meter replaced collapsed its wave-function.  Presumably this is why they call them quantum meters.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #81 on: 11 October, 2018, 12:24:10 pm »
So this reactive and resistive power thing: Let's take a washing machine. It has basically two electric components, a heating element and a motor to turn the drum. Let's suppose for ease of stuff that both are 1kW. That means the heating element uses 1kW of electricity and turns it into 1kW of heat (minus inevitable losses)? Whereas the motor uses more than 1kW of electricity to produce 1kW of spinny power (torque?) (minus inevitable losses)? Or not?
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Kim

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #82 on: 11 October, 2018, 01:03:51 pm »
So this reactive and resistive power thing: Let's take a washing machine. It has basically two electric components, a heating element and a motor to turn the drum. Let's suppose for ease of stuff that both are 1kW. That means the heating element uses 1kW of electricity and turns it into 1kW of heat (minus inevitable losses)? Whereas the motor uses more than 1kW of electricity to produce 1kW of spinny power (torque?) (minus inevitable losses)? Or not?

Yes, exactly that.  The power factor will be near as dammit 1 while it's heating the water, but will drop significantly when the motor's doing serious work in the spin cycle.  The domestic electricity meter will magically[1] only record the 1kW of real power, in spite of there being more than the ~4.2A you might expect a 1kW load to draw flowing in the wire.

By convention, apparent power is quoted in VA (Volt-Amperes) rather than Watts.  You're most likely to encounter this on ratings of things that supply AC power, like isolation transformers (the big yellow things for 110V power tools), UPSes, generators and inverters.

A 1kVA inverter, for example, might happily power your washing machine as it heats the water and swishes the drum about during the wash (when the motor is only drawing a fraction of its rated power, albeit at a nasty power factor), and promptly trip out when the washing machine gets to the spin cycle and presents, say, 1.4VA of load.


[1] For simplicity I've been carefully not talking about phase angle, but suffice to say the difference between resistive and reactive current is whether they're in sync with the AC voltage or not.  Inductive loads make the current lag behind the voltage; capacitive loads make the current lead the voltage (hence if you carefully combine the two they can cancel out).  Some loads (typically electronics and fluorescent lighting) are non-linear, with a current waveform that isn't even a sine wave, which causes particular problems for the grid.

Your traditional spinning-disc electricity meter is effectively an induction motor that mechanically multiplies instantaneous voltage by instantaneous current, hence always measures real power.  An electronic meter will be sampling the voltage and current waveforms independently and performing the calculation in software, so can derive voltage, current, frequency, real power, apparent power, power factor, etc.  Potentially some of this is useful for monitoring the performance of the distribution network, as well as billing.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #83 on: 11 October, 2018, 01:20:17 pm »
By convention, apparent power is quoted in VA (Volt-Amperes) rather than Watts.  You're most likely to encounter this on ratings of things that supply AC power, like isolation transformers (the big yellow things for 110V power tools), UPSes, generators and inverters.
Aha!
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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #84 on: 01 December, 2018, 08:19:17 am »
Big Clive's smart meter teardown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G32NYQpvy8Q

andytheflyer

  • Andytheex-flyer.....
Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #85 on: 01 December, 2018, 08:50:42 am »
A couple of months ago Scottish Power (yes, I know, I live at the bottom end of Cheshire) 'invited' me to have a smart meter fitted, and I declined.  I have an electricity monitor on the wall and I can see when SWMBO has put a fan heater on in her music room, and has left the doors open, so a 3kW heater is trying to heat our whole house...…  I don't need a smart meter that won't work if I change supplier.

This week I had an email from SP inviting me to have a smart meter fitted.  I wondered if this was the start of a campaign to wear me down into having one fitted - if we keep badgering you, you'll give in in the end.  Ha Ha  - we win!

Just had another SP email, apologising for emailing me earlier in the week when I'd already previously declined their kind offer.  Is this some form of subterfuge? Yes, we know you'd told us not to fit a smart meter, but we forgot, so sorry we bothered you.  But, really, would you like one after all?  (There was a link button on their email to book a meter fitting appointment).


I don't normally subscribe to conspiracy theories, but in this case......

Jaded

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #86 on: 01 December, 2018, 09:02:39 am »
I’ve had the same.

The weird thing about the latest emails is that they are coming to fit one next week.
It is simpler than it looks.

Mrs Pingu

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #87 on: 01 December, 2018, 10:50:56 am »
We're supposed supposed to be getting our b0rked electric meter replaced by a smart one on Monday. But it's a dumb smart one so I'll still need to grovel on the floor to read it I suppose.
(Though that's not as much of a pain as having to empty the cupboard under the kitchen sink and grovel on the floor to read the gas meter, which isn't getting replaced becauss it would be a PITA.)
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Feanor

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #88 on: 01 December, 2018, 11:07:07 am »
Ive had the same from SP.
In fact, Ive been getting spammed by txt and email several times a week.

I had to call them and ask them to stop, as its in relation to a rental property we are only in shot term.

They said the could mark the account as 'awaiting landlord approval' and that would stop the spam.

Wombat

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #89 on: 01 December, 2018, 02:25:01 pm »
At last, I am supposed to be getting mine (a proper SMETS2 one) fitted on Tuesday.  Assuming the mobile phone network plays ball at the moment of installation, of course.  I'm on a tariff with SSE which pre-agrees that I'm OK to have a smart meter, but I held off on it because we had an old meter (this is a new house to us, we moved in during Feb) that went backwards when the newly installed solar PV was generating.  It took them months to twig I wasn't lying in the meter readings I gave them, so they wanted to fit a new meter as soon as they realised what was happening.  I got awkward and insisted on a smart meter, they said they didn't have any that were OK for solar PV (which I knew was bollocks) and a bloke came to install a new dumb meter 2 weeks ago.  He also showed me a message on his phone saying he could now install SMETS2 compliant meters in homes with microgeneration, but he had to fit what he had been told to fit, i.e. a dumb one.  A week ago I got a letter from SSE saying I could have a smart meter, so I phoned, and they're coming on Tuesday.  I didn't worry them like I did the advisor when making the previous appointment, that when we have no electricity, it also means we have no water, as that got her all worried (we have a private borehole, with a pump about 40 metres down the hole).

Here's hoping they get a mobile signal, as it comes and goes randomly.  Sometimes its 4G, sometimes there's nothing, but luckily the meter is outside, so it gets a slightly better chance.

I'm puzzled by the folk who are anti-smart meter.  What do they think its going to do, steal their children and ravage their spouses?  Even if you resolutely refuse to make use of the helpful information it gives you, and aren't interested in not getting any estimated bills, what possible harm can it do?  OK, so it raises the distant possibility of demand side regulation, but if that ever comes to pass, I'd rather have my electricity supply throttled, than have it cut out because everyone was being too greedy.  Energy is a precious and limited resource, we need to use it carefully and wisely.  And before anyone points out that I could just have an energy monitor, OK, just tell me of one that works properly with microgeneration, because as far as I can tell, there aren't any.  I have no idea, why, but none of them actually seem to be able to tell me clearly my status, whether I'm in credit or debit, on the consumption versus generation, front.
Wombat

andytheflyer

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #90 on: 01 December, 2018, 05:30:26 pm »
I'm puzzled by the folk who are anti-smart meter. 

I don't have one, and don't currently want one: unless I'm given a SMETS2, it doesn't work if I change supplier.  What idiot allowed the suppliers to install meters that can't be used by any supplier.  Big lack of application of brain by someone in Govt/Regulation which we, the consumer, are paying for.

I already have a monitor on the wall for my electricity - so I soon know if our consumption is not what I'd expect given the time of day.

I pay by quarterly DD, based upon my previous consumption, and I almost always send in my quarterly meter readings and doing that allows me a quick check to see if our consumption for the quarter is what I'd expect.  Occasionally they'll owe me something, or I owe them something.  It balances out.

Agreed, a Smart meter would obviate the need for me to spend 10 minutes 4 times a year reading the meters.  And, yes, a Smart meter would also show me the gas consumption - but it's only used for CH/HW and that consumption doesn't vary much - it doesn't get 'left on' like a fan heater or hob ring can, which drink electricity.

And  finally, in our corner of our rural village, only one mobile provider seems to work - when I worked from home, my work mobiles only worked if I went to the upstairs front of the house.  The meter cupboard is downstairs, around the back.  I'd be surprised if it gets a signal.  Inevitably, they'll use a provider that can't 'see 'my Smart meter's modem, so I'll still have to email my meter readings.

When the idiots who specified the Smart meter system get their act together, and install meters that do what they should do, then I'll have one.  Until then I'll help out all of the UK's energy consumers by saving them the cost of installing a semi-useless bit of technology in my house.

And breathe.

I thank you all.

Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #91 on: 01 December, 2018, 05:40:15 pm »
Ah, that's interesting, Wombat.  I've been trying to get SSE to fit a smart meter for ages but was told they couldn't because of my PV FIT set-up.  From what you say they are now able to do this.  Let me know how it goes.
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Kim

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #92 on: 01 December, 2018, 06:03:26 pm »
The main objection to smart meters (other than them being badly implemented) seems to be that they allow your electricity company to cut your electricity off.  As if they couldn't do that already.

Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #93 on: 01 December, 2018, 07:17:11 pm »
The main objection to smart meters (other than them being badly implemented) seems to be that they allow your electricity company to cut your electricity off.  As if they couldn't do that already.

Well they can, but as things are lots of others would be cut off too - every third house in our case. Individual smart meters = individual disconnections.
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Kim

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #94 on: 01 December, 2018, 07:21:40 pm »
The main objection to smart meters (other than them being badly implemented) seems to be that they allow your electricity company to cut your electricity off.  As if they couldn't do that already.

Well they can, but as things are lots of others would be cut off too - every third house in our case. Individual smart meters = individual disconnections.

They already have a legal right to enter your property, escorted by a police ossifer and a locksmith as necessary, in order to perform individual disconnections.  The smart meter just means you don't need a new front door.

robgul

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #95 on: 01 December, 2018, 07:37:36 pm »
Interesting this week - I phoned our energy supplier (British Gas for both) about a billing query and tariff change (that's another story of unscrupulous attempts to up the price now instead of when the current fix ends in February - cost to me would have >£100) - it was sort of answered but I lodged a formal complaint.

Five minutes later I got a sales call about fitting a SmartMeter "to save me money on my tariff" .... err, no - all it does is frighten you into turning the heating down and the lights off so any saving is in your realm.

I hovered and said possibly if it's a SMETS 2 .... "we can't guarantee that but we'll be there between nn and nn on nn January"    .... oh no you wont, no Smets 2 = no new meters.

Coincidence with the sales call or what?

Rob


rogerzilla

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #96 on: 01 December, 2018, 08:12:48 pm »
The conspiracy theory is that smart meters are being put in to enable surge pricing, which will allow the suppliers and generators to better match revenue to costs (they have to pay a lot more for energy at certain times, but it's all flat rate to domestic users).  This means it might cost you a quid to boil a kettle at some times of day, when everyone wants to do it.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

rob

Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #97 on: 01 December, 2018, 08:21:59 pm »
The conspiracy theory is that smart meters are being put in to enable surge pricing, which will allow the suppliers and generators to better match revenue to costs (they have to pay a lot more for energy at certain times, but it's all flat rate to domestic users).  This means it might cost you a quid to boil a kettle at some times of day, when everyone wants to do it.

And that is, indeed, just a conspiracy theory. 

A recent trial with smart settlement at a domestic level had consumers saving £150-£300 per year.  The worst off customer was flat.

Kim

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Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #98 on: 01 December, 2018, 08:31:33 pm »
The conspiracy theory is that smart meters are being put in to enable surge pricing, which will allow the suppliers and generators to better match revenue to costs (they have to pay a lot more for energy at certain times, but it's all flat rate to domestic users).  This means it might cost you a quid to boil a kettle at some times of day, when everyone wants to do it.

Which seems like an eminently sensible thing to do, if we want to encourage people to use the cheap clean electricity, rather than the expensive fossil-fuel-based stuff.

Re: Home Energy Smart Meters
« Reply #99 on: 01 December, 2018, 09:03:50 pm »
All this is very interesting. From a french viewpoint I think it is possible to refuse them but the mechanism for doing that is not very clear (read, exceedingly well-hidden for normal mortals). French meters apparently use current carrying  (or whatever CPL is in anglo-saxon), not wi-fi. They are not 100% reliable; I forget who said a member of his family had one catch fire but our neighbour had her tele destroyed by it - liability accepted by the fitting sub-contractor but she now has a hassle dealing with various insurance companies which at 80+ with dodgy health she could do without.
On our case we accepted it, the man came on the due date for the electric one, all cleared to give him access. It took him all of 30 seconds to discover there were no main fuses - no new meter until Engie come to cut the power at the pole ( which will probably cut off the whole neighbourhood). The fitter looked at our 1950's vintage meter and said that the oldest they had changed dated from 1932 and it was still working fine, a record that he didn't think would be the case with the new ones.
Some time later the gas meter was going to be changed as well. Rdv advanced a couple of weeks in this case. Same story, just explaining what he was going to do and which bits to turn off when I show him where the meter is. The container that it's in (for which I have forgotten the right word in french and in english; damn senior's moments) is not "aux normes" and needs to be replaced as well for which a new rdv will have to be arranged in a relatively distant future. I didn't have the heart to point out that they would undoubtedly have to replace the tiny pipe and T-piece that feeds our neighbour and us or the box in the wall that it comes from (but I did tell him that our neighbour's installation was the same as ours!).
Great stuff, these new meters! How on earth we stay alive without them I really don't know :D