Census thread for discussions about the census

[PhilO]

Being to the West of Offa's Dyke* I had to answer a question about whether I speak Cymreag.  No guidance on fluency, though.  I did the Mynediad (entry) course four or five years ago, and have worked through Say Something in Welsh Course 1, but am about as far from fluent as it gets.

I've provisionally ticked the boxes for 'read' and 'speak' on the basis that I can sort-of-work-it-out-with-a-following-wind-and-and-occasional-dictionary, but not not the 'understand spoken' box as my brain doesn't work that fast or 'write' as I'm not confident with spelling**.  Not sure if that's what they're looking for, though. :-/



*At least, I assume that folks in Ingerlund didn't get this question, much as I wasn't asked about my Gaelic proficiency.
**Spelling should really be easier than English, as the rules are much more consistent.

[Cudzoziemiec]

In Eastofdykeland, if you gave a language other than English as your main language, it asked you how well you know English. But this was just one overall question, no breakdown in speech and writing or active and passive.

[PhilO]

...Eastofdykeland...

I like that! Might have to pinch it... 

[Jasmine]

PhilO - it's partly used for the statistics on how widespread the use of Welsh is. I have been told that you can interpret is as 'can you use Welsh at all' rather than 'are you fluent', so tick as many boxes as you thinks reasonable. The more detailed language stats come from an annual survey.

[hubner]

Completed it yesterday. Interestingly, the online questions are slightly different from those given in the paper form, assuming the pdf link upthread somewheres is actually this year's form. Specifically, online has separate "passport" and "national identity" questions, the latter being absent from the pdf. Being self-employed or freelance significantly cuts down the number of questions you have to answer. Anyways, it didn't complain that we'd skipped a couple of questions. Not yet, anyway!

PDF link upthread:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/census/censustransformationprogramme/questiondevelopment/census2021paperquestionnaires/householdenglandpdf.pdf

page 8 question 14
page 9 question 20

The paper and online questions are the same, it would be illogical if they were different. The online form automatically skips questions that are not applicable.

https://census.gov.uk/help/how-to-answer-questions/paper-questions-help/what-passports-do-you-hold

Why we ask this question

Your answer helps local and central government understand more about the citizens of other countries living in England and Wales.

The information helps your local authority to understand how your community is made up and which services people have access to. They will use it to plan things like housing, education, social services and healthcare in your area.

Your local authority can use this information to understand more about the movement of people in your area now and in the future. They can then assess which services the area may need and the cost of them.

The census first asked this question in 2011.

Select a box for each passport you hold.

I did wonder why they ask for passports held and not citizenship as you can be a UK citizen without having a passport. It seems they're more interested in people with foreign passports, ie foreign citizens.

[hubner]

And the ethnic group and national identity questions are in effect voluntary as you can answer with whatever you like, including "none" or "xyz".

[Mr Larrington]

My b-i-l, the estimable Dr Davis, says I mustn’t call myself “European” as it will mislead future historians.  This is a rare example of him Being Wrong.  Future historians, if they are not aware of the calamitous fuckeroo that is Brexit*, might pause to ponder the sudden influx of “Europeans”.  “What might have happened between 2011 and 2021 to make all those people identify as European, I wonder?  Let us do some further reading!”

Also, he's too late

* and if they’re not, they should jack in the history gig and go on the bins or something.

[Mrs Pingu]

If you're not religious and want to think about how you answer that question and what it could result in, you may find this of interest.
https://twitter.com/Humanists_UK/status/1370676008303534081?s=19

[citoyen]

If you're not religious and want to think about how you answer that question and what it could result in, you may find this of interest.
https://twitter.com/Humanists_UK/status/1370676008303534081?s=19

This raises a very fair point about the census - why is there no "What football team do you support?" question. Careless omission. Football is, after all, the national religion.

In all seriousness, though, everyone please make sure you put 'No religion' unless you are an active practitioner of whatever faith - and as for those clowns who think it's funny to put 'Jedi' on the form, just grow the fuck up will you?

[Cudzoziemiec]

As that question's voluntary, might make more sense to not answer it (if you don't have an answer to give, such as Christian, Hindu, etc). Saying "no religion" could be taken as validating the assumption that everyone has one.

[Polar Bear]

That's an interesting perspective Cudzo.  However, how would you interpret a non-reply?  Does the person  prefer not to share or are they perhaps a member of an illegal sect?  Or are they genuinely not religious at all? 

I am no expert at wording such things but I would have thought this should be a two parter.  Part 1 should ask if you consider yourself to be religious / have a faith or however such wording should be presented.  Part 2 should then be only for people who answered yes to part 1 and offer a comprehensive list and then an "other" option just in case.

I would still expect the Jedi to answer yes and then state that they are Jedi so it doesn't filter all pillocks but then I consider the census to be quite an invasion of privacy so if people wish to dick around, so be it.

[hubner]

We need more dicking around!

At least they put "no religion" at the top of the list of answers.

The access code/paper form should be automatically separate for each member of a household. You should not have to request individual codes/forms. Believe it or not, house/flat shares are classed as one household.

For those who consider the census to be an invasion of privacy, I suggest being as vague as possible with your answers, although there's not much room for that. You could even answer with "wrong" answers where there is plausible deniability.

[Cudzoziemiec]

That's an interesting perspective Cudzo.  However, how would you interpret a non-reply?  Does the person  prefer not to share or are they perhaps a member of an illegal sect?  Or are they genuinely not religious at all? 

Don't know! Quite a lot of the questions are fairly loose and open to an amount of interpretation. I suppose ONS have official guidance for this but doubtless when historians or genealogists etc come to look at it in a hundred years' time, their interpretations will vary.

[citoyen]

As that question's voluntary, might make more sense to not answer it (if you don't have an answer to give, such as Christian, Hindu, etc). Saying "no religion" could be taken as validating the assumption that everyone has one.

I want to take the opportunity to assert my non-religious status.

If they want to draw spurious inferences from that, there's not much I can do about that.

Leaving it blank wouldn't accurately reflect my feelings on the matter.

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

My b-i-l, the estimable Dr Davis, says I mustn’t call myself “European” as it will mislead future historians.  This is a rare example of him Being Wrong.  Future historians, if they are not aware of the calamitous fuckeroo that is Brexit*, might pause to ponder the sudden influx of “Europeans”.  “What might have happened between 2011 and 2021 to make all those people identify as European, I wonder?  Let us do some further reading!”

Also, he's too late

* and if they’re not, they should jack in the history gig and go on the bins or something.

I have been doing history stuff concerning matters in the early 20th century.  It was a time of non-conformist revolt over the attempt by the CofE to control schools among other matters.

Looking at the census in 1901 it's clear that one or two prominent people misdeclared their whereabouts and their parish.  It's not hard to detect and seems to have been part of their 'passive resistance' campaign.

120 years later their actions are recorded.

[citoyen]

The census has always been a means of expressing dissent.

I feel it's important for me to assert my status as a non-religious European.

Only twats call themselves Jedis though. That's not dissent, it's being a child.

[offcumden]

The census has always been a means of expressing dissent.

I feel it's important for me to assert my status as a non-religious European.

Only twats call themselves Jedis though. That's not dissent, it's being a child.

And not a very bright child, at that.  I put a link to the Humanists' material on a WhatsApp group, and a nine-year old commented that in school RE lessons they don’t talk about people with no religion. She said “for example, I don’t have a religion, which I don’t mind.  In fact I’m quite happy about it!”.  Stand up and be counted.

I'm still mulling over what to put for nationality. I guess I'm expected to put British, but I feel European . . . or perhaps 'citoyen du monde'?

[Cudzoziemiec]

Yes, there could be a hundred reasons for not answering the religion question (or various other questions) from accident to protest to incomprehension to...

[barakta]

I've been noting the transphobes being transphobic about the sex question while completely failing to recognise that for at least the 1911 census many women responded with "No votes, no census" or variations on that theme. Again something that we can see umpty hundred years later.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've been noting the transphobes being transphobic about the sex question

I presume this means objecting to the "is your gender now the same as that recorded at birth?" question (I can't remember the precise wording)? Because if people answer "yes" that means transgender people exist? So by analogy answering "no religion" to that question makes more sense than skipping it. Though it could make the ethnicity question rather dodgy...

[giropaul]

Being to the West of Offa's Dyke* I had to answer a question about whether I speak Cymreag.  No guidance on fluency, though.  I did the Mynediad (entry) course four or five years ago, and have worked through Say Something in Welsh Course 1, but am about as far from fluent as it gets.

I've provisionally ticked the boxes for 'read' and 'speak' on the basis that I can sort-of-work-it-out-with-a-following-wind-and-and-occasional-dictionary, but not not the 'understand spoken' box as my brain doesn't work that fast or 'write' as I'm not confident with spelling**.  Not sure if that's what they're looking for, though. :-/



*At least, I assume that folks in Ingerlund didn't get this question, much as I wasn't asked about my Gaelic proficiency.
**Spelling should really be easier than English, as the rules are much more consistent.

The form online has a Welsh button at the top ( and I logged on with my code relating to a central England address)

[perpetual dan]

We did ours over lunch. I considered Jedi, but I don’t think my POBI contributions have quite reached the level of changing the minds of stormtroopers. European though.

[PhilO]

One of my fears is that there will be fewer people declaring 'European' than claimed to be Jedi ten years ago. What would that say about us as a population? 😕

[Beardy]

It occurs to me that the form is generally (supposed to be?) filled in by one person, usually the deaf to ‘head of the household’* yet a number of the questions are asking what do YOU consider YOU are. I put down European for nationality for all of us, assumed that Dr Beardy (Mrs) considers herself hetro and asked Ms Beardy the smaller what she considered herself (Bi). The census as a whole then is unlikely to give a true picture of peoples beliefs when it can be filled in by others on their behalf.

[fuaran]

It occurs to me that the form is generally (supposed to be?) filled in by one person, usually the deaf to ‘head of the household’* yet a number of the questions are asking what do YOU consider YOU are. I put down European for nationality for all of us, assumed that Dr Beardy (Mrs) considers herself hetro and asked Ms Beardy the smaller what she considered herself (Bi). The census as a whole then is unlikely to give a true picture of peoples beliefs when it can be filled in by others on their behalf.

You can request an individual access code if you want to fill it yourself. Then your own answers will override those from the household form.