Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 844112 times)

Mr Larrington

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5175 on: 28 February, 2019, 02:02:58 pm »
Not only is it illegal, it's probably impossible.  At least it was in September 2016:


P9090052 by Mr Larrington, on Flickr.  The black thing bottom left is part of the idiot fence.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5176 on: 28 February, 2019, 03:36:29 pm »
I didn't know the Sealed Knot did boats 
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5177 on: 01 March, 2019, 08:00:59 am »
One of the vagaries of working in contract publishing is that the client has final say over content so will sometimes tell you to change things because they know best, even though they have hired you for your expertise in the field.

Yesterday, the client asked us to add a hyphen to “in store” in the cover line “Save £110 in store today”. This is not a hill I would be prepared to die on, and it is perhaps arguable either way (at least, I wouldn’t assert dogmatically that it is incorrect, as the account manager did, in her typically noisy and hysterical fashion), but the main case against is that we’ve never had a hyphen in that cover line (which is on every issue) so bringing it up now is really just an exercise in the client asserting their authority because they have to be seen to justify their existence.

The editor ultimately wrote an email back to the client, taking the “blind them with science” approach by citing complex and wordy grammar rules. And that was the bit that made me cringe.

I think it’s quite simple: a compound modifier is not usually hyphenated when it comes <after> the noun, except where required for clarity.

Although I get why the editor took the approach she did - you’ve got to put the client in their place sometimes. ;D
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5178 on: 01 March, 2019, 08:19:36 am »
Actually, thinking about it some more, I would say the editor’s reply was wrong. She described “in store” as a compound adjective but surely it’s adverbial in this context, ie modifying the verb “save”?

Also, I wonder if a terse explanation carries more authority - long-winded explanations can give the impression you don’t really understand what you’re talking about...
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5179 on: 01 March, 2019, 08:29:04 am »
Definitely adverbiage (sorry, couldn't resist).

Anyway, we had a lot of that when MrsT was translating, particularly from the "-ize is American, -ise is British" crew. Or is it the other way round? I forget.* We used to get orders to translate something from French into American, and every time we knew some in-house moron who spikka good ze Eengleesh would be taking his best red pen to it.

* AIUI it was all -ize before Halitosis Johnson (a.k.a. Doctor) muddied the water with his "it comes from the French so it should be -ise". Eejit.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5180 on: 01 March, 2019, 09:11:56 am »
"It covers a wide variety of everything" has just made me smile.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5181 on: 01 March, 2019, 09:44:15 am »
Definitely adverbiage (sorry, couldn't resist).

Yep. And in fact, I realise now that I didn't read the editor's reply properly (I glossed over it, not really wanting to get involved in fatuous grammar arguments) and what she actually said was that in this context, "in store" is a noun, which is definitely very wrong indeed.

The grammar is so ingrained that sometimes when I actually stop to think of why something is right or wrong, it doesn't always come straight away. I look at "Save £110 in store" and know instinctively that it doesn't need a hyphen but I have to admit it needed a good deal of thought as to why. However, once I twigged that it's an adverb, it all became clear.

ETA I like this: http://www.grammarunderground.com/should-you-hyphenate-compound-adverbs.html
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5182 on: 01 March, 2019, 09:44:26 am »
"It covers a wide variety of everything" has just made me smile.

Love it.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5183 on: 01 March, 2019, 07:22:51 pm »
Lawyers famously avoid commas as far as they possibly can. Some people, equally famously, love commas, and use them, wherever they possibly can.
Quote
And secondly, based on your interaction with the rating agencies and, clearly, they, obviously, give you the benefit in terms of [...]
This takes love of commas into a slavish obsession.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5184 on: 01 March, 2019, 07:25:56 pm »
Definitely adverbiage (sorry, couldn't resist).

Yep. And in fact, I realise now that I didn't read the editor's reply properly (I glossed over it, not really wanting to get involved in fatuous grammar arguments) and what she actually said was that in this context, "in store" is a noun, which is definitely very wrong indeed.

The grammar is so ingrained that sometimes when I actually stop to think of why something is right or wrong, it doesn't always come straight away. I look at "Save £110 in store" and know instinctively that it doesn't need a hyphen but I have to admit it needed a good deal of thought as to why. However, once I twigged that it's an adverb, it all became clear.

ETA I like this: http://www.grammarunderground.com/should-you-hyphenate-compound-adverbs.html
"Store" is a noun, but are you actually saying that both words of "in store" form part of the noun, rather than a preposition and a noun?
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ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5185 on: 01 March, 2019, 09:12:57 pm »
surely to be in store is not a noun?

The store in which you are in is the noun?
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5186 on: 02 March, 2019, 07:23:16 am »
Interesting.

I reckon it's just wrong, but sounds correct because "in store" is a common phrase.

You can have "in-store savings". You can say "Savings are in store for you tomorrow". But "Save in store" means "Save in the store". No-one would say "get in car" or "put this in box".
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that's not science, it's semantics.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5187 on: 02 March, 2019, 08:54:12 am »
ETA I like this: http://www.grammarunderground.com/should-you-hyphenate-compound-adverbs.html

Reading that, my brain goes into a feedback loop where the hyphens flicker in and out of existence and eventually settle to a grey blur.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5188 on: 02 March, 2019, 11:18:09 am »
"Store" is a noun, but are you actually saying that both words of "in store" form part of the noun, rather than a preposition and a noun?

No, I’m not saying it’s a noun - that’s what the editor said but I think she was confusing herself.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5189 on: 02 March, 2019, 11:33:37 am »
But "Save in store" means "Save in the store". No-one would say "get in car" or "put this in box".

But you might say “save online”, right?
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5190 on: 02 March, 2019, 01:19:13 pm »
I probably wouldn't but then I'm an anachronism.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5191 on: 02 March, 2019, 05:41:20 pm »
Save on line! Get your line cheap from us!
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5192 on: 02 March, 2019, 06:33:48 pm »
I've the elders man again. And once again he's confused by the very same word! Partly it's the East African accent baffling him, but he's got to get used to that as he seems to be interviewing dozens of East Africans. I think he's rather linguistically inflexible, as he also doesn't understand the phrase "They would close an eye on it." ("They would what?" "They would – how do you say it? – they would pretend they didn't see it." "Oh, they would turn a blind eye to it.") Still, I'm sure he's good at gathering evidence.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5193 on: 02 March, 2019, 09:15:25 pm »
Overheard on train today - first 6 words of the conversation were:

"So like, I was so, like...", etc. ad nauseam with "like" repeated every 5 words and "so" every 10 (or so). 

It's actually torture to my ears - had to put the headphones in.

There is no longer any doubt that "so" is the new "like" and together they are massacring the language.
The sound of one pannier flapping

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5194 on: 03 March, 2019, 08:26:26 am »
Germans were introducing sentences with so and also* at least 40 years ago, if not 400.  I reckon it spread to the US in the 1850s, permeated the vernacular and returned east via the media, starting with the talkies.  If it has as much sticking power in the UK as it has over there you're in trouble.

* which doesn't mean also.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5195 on: 03 March, 2019, 05:28:03 pm »
Also spoke Zarathustra. Yebbut who else?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5196 on: 04 March, 2019, 04:47:11 pm »
Quote
It does rather look as if whomever made the decision watched Rain Main on Netflix, or something, and thought oo-er, we’d better find out if some of these scary people are out and about on the roads.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/autism-dvla-driving-jess-phillips-a8807096.html

I'd have said it was the curse of pseudoformality, but it's really not a formal sentence.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5197 on: 07 March, 2019, 10:33:37 pm »
Quote
As a company, *** Tankers can essentially go three ways: it can go up, it can go sideways, it can go down.

Nothing wrong with the grammar at all, it just made me smile.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5198 on: 13 March, 2019, 06:18:38 pm »
Today I have a question for this thread!

In the phrase "our anti money laundering systems" where would you place hyphens?
anti-money-laundering systems
anti-money laundering systems
anti money-laundering systems
anti-moneylaundering systems

They all look a bit wrong to me (including leaving them all out).
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hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #5199 on: 13 March, 2019, 06:25:05 pm »
Today I have a question for this thread!

In the phrase "our anti money laundering systems" where would you place hyphens?
anti-money-laundering systems
anti-money laundering systems
anti money-laundering systems
anti-moneylaundering systems

They all look a bit wrong to me (including leaving them all out).

IMO double hyphenating looks wrong and we Brits seldom concatenate words.