PayPal entry

[frankly frankie]

Paypal only seems to allow 2 user-defined fields in addition to the standard name, address, item, quantity, price etc fields which is insufficient for replicating the full entry form for non-members.

You can kludge round that by concatenating the form fields into those two fields, though.
Not great for data handling but most Organisers still go through an 'analogue' stage somewhere along the line anyway ...

Frustratingly, if you make up additional fields, these are correctly included on the paypal confirmation email to the entrant but omitted from the email to the organiser

Something wrong there - those two fields are included in the emails that Orgs receive from Paypal as a result of AUK's routines - they appear as rider_name and rider_address

[Martin]

I get this in the email; (details XXX'd out to protect the innocent)

Payment Details

Total amount:  £5.50 GBP
Currency:  British Pounds
Item/Product Number:  08-434 / C8941
Transaction ID:  XXXXXXXXXXXX
Quantity:  1
Item/Product Name:  AUK Event Entry: Mid Sussex Hilly 110 / Fred Bloggs
The following options were included with this payment:  rider_name: AUK no and Name
rider_address: XXXXXXXXXXXXX
 
Buyer:  XXXXXXXXXXX

[saturn]

Paypal only seems to allow 2 user-defined fields in addition to the standard name, address, item, quantity, price etc fields which is insufficient for replicating the full entry form for non-members.

You can kludge round that by concatenating the form fields into those two fields, though.

Interesting, I'd have to see if I can figure out the code to do that.

Frustratingly, if you make up additional fields, these are correctly included on the paypal confirmation email to the entrant but omitted from the email to the organiser

Something wrong there - those two fields are included in the emails that Orgs receive from Paypal as a result of AUK's routines - they appear as rider_name and rider_address

That's what I mean, those 2 fields use the allowed user defined fields for on0/os0 & on1/on1

What I described is what happens if you make additional fields up on2/os2, on3/os3 etc

[StanThomas]

This is about online entry in general but I've tagged it on here because a number of points have already been mentioned. It follows on from comments from the 'promoting audax events' thread, my own experiences and discussions with AUK officials, principally Francis Cooke.

Online entry can simply be registering with an event online then putting a cheque in the mail with the AUK entry form. And yes, some people do exactly this, maybe they don't have credit/debit cards, maybe they don't like Paypal.
But I'd like to talk about the full monty: online entry with online payment.

For:

• It's quick and easy for the rider. They get immediate confirmation of their entry.
• If it's done right, it saves stamps, envelopes and trips to the mailbox.
• Good for the organiser: don't have to type in rider details, bank cheques, print&post route sheets.
• Avoids the risk of a dud cheque - bank charges for which could wipe out any profits from an event.
• Because rider details are in a database, it facilitates production start/finisher list etc.
• Generic online entry services are available for organisers who do not want the cost and effort of setting up an event website.
• May attract more entries.

Against:

• There is a cost. For a £5 entry fee, Paypal charges will be 37p.
• Generic online entry services usually charge more than taking payments direct - typically £1.00 per entry.
• Paypal is not perceived to be as trustworth as HSBC or Barclays, say, and some people are reluctant to use it. Major banks do provide similar payment services but they have considerable overhead making them unaffordable for small volumes.
• The online entry system currently available through AUK is for AUK members only.
• Riders still need to complete the AUK entry form.
• Riders still need to supply an s.a.e. for return of the validated Brevet card - so we can't eliminate the Post Office altogether.
• May encourage late entry.

Issues:

• Do organisers absorb the online entry cost or pass it on to riders? Not an easy question when there's a mix of online/postal entries.
• Can a simple 'sign-on' at the start replace the AUK entry form?
• Should AUK provide a common online entry system for all riders in all events (this is under discussion by AUK)?
• What's the problem with Paypal?
• Can organisers validate and return Brevet cards on the day?

[Martin]

For
1.May attract more entries.

Against:
2.There is a cost. For a £5 entry fee, Paypal charges will be 37p.[/li][/list]
3.Generic online entry services usually charge more than taking payments direct - typically £1.00 per entry.
4.Riders still need to supply an s.a.e. for return of the validated Brevet card - so we can't eliminate the Post Office altogether.
5.May encourage late entry.[/li][/list]
6.Do organisers absorb the online entry cost or pass it on to riders? Not an easy question when there's a mix of online/postal entries.
7.Route sheets
8.Entry Forms
9.Can organisers validate and return Brevet cards on the day?

my experience having set my event up for Paypal this year;
1. Definitely; there is an "impulse buy" factor that snail mail cannot provide
2. Yes; charge a 50p Paypal surcharge (I still lose out over snail mail but who's counting?)
3. Yes but I's only be interested in one type of online entry and Paypal does the biz.
4. No the org does that (if they really want it back)
5. Good; I'd rather get a late entry 2 days before than a lost in the post 2 weeks before (as long as there is still an official closing date to deter the real fair weather rider)
6. see 2
7. Available online on the calendar page (add a caveat that anybody who just prints it off and rides round without entering is nothing to do with the event)
8. There are none with Paypal; the payment screen tells you everyting you need to know
(you can devise your own version for non-members but it's a lot more fiddly)
9. No; after the finish list is validated stickers are sent out to the org who then attaches to and returns the retained brevet cards. You can take them away on the day if you like but they will only be validated online and you run the risk of them getting lost among the diabolical mess that the finish list invariably becomes.

[phil d]

I have upped the surcharge from 50p to £1 for 2009.  Entrant saves 3 stamps (81p at 2nd class rates) 3 envelopes and loads of effort.  This comfortably covers the PayPal fee and the one envelope and stamp I might have to provide - 50p did not.  Though in fairness I had nearly enough envelopes from DNSs to cover - just had to provide address labels.

I did not find that the later entries at the Upper Thames where on-line.

In 2008 I wasn't sure whether I needed on-line entrants to sign a disclaimer at the start, so I did provide one.  But as using the on-line entry is deemed to be acceptance of the terms this is probably unnecessary.

At present on-line entry probably creates slightly more work than just paper entries, as you have to deal with both, emailing routesheets to the entrants.

[StanThomas]

9. No; after the finish list is validated stickers are sent out to the org who then attaches to and returns the retained brevet cards. You can take them away on the day if you like but they will only be validated online and you run the risk of them getting lost among the diabolical mess that the finish list invariably becomes.

Ok, is that official - if an organiser validates the Brevet card on the day and the rider takes it away with them then, assuming the organiser submits a nice, tidy finisher's list, the card is deemed to have been validated? And the stickers are just a nicety. I'm only talking about Populaires here.

I ask because:
1. I, and many others, like to have something to take away from a ride.
2. We're cheapskates and don't want to pay the postage.
3. It's part of an ongoing discussion I'm having with Sue & Keith.

[Martin]

9. No; after the finish list is validated stickers are sent out to the org who then attaches to and returns the retained brevet cards. You can take them away on the day if you like but they will only be validated online and you run the risk of them getting lost among the diabolical mess that the finish list invariably becomes.

Ok, is that official - if an organiser validates the Brevet card on the day and the rider takes it away with them then, assuming the organiser submits a nice, tidy finisher's list, the card is deemed to have been validated? And the stickers are just a nicety.

I assume so; I've long since stopped asking for my card back; I bin them all religiously anyway once validated in favour of a badge; Metal is good; paper less so

[phil d]

You risk creating major complications here.

For an AUK member there is not really much need for a validated card, as the results list on the website provides effective lists of validated rides.  But this does not always work for non-members (recently non-member names have been added to the results list, but I guess only where organisers have used the on-line start list generator)

But if you have some people taking their card away at the end, others requiring the validated card back, and yet others not caring and not providing the sae, you have an organisers' nightmare.  These events need to conform to the principle of KISS*, which is the main reason to treat all finishers the same.


*Keep it Simple, Stupid.

[Martin]

agreed; as I said; it's all a chaotic mess at the end of a ride and eventually validated cards / medals / badges are married back up with their rider. But a non-member who does not want the card back is entitled to take it away if he/she wants as that will usually be the only proof that they've done the event; I'd personally prefer to keep all the cards as they denote "More Stuff to Do" before you can put the whole lot back up in the loft for another 11 months.

[Ivo]

In my situation I'd probably accept the paypal surcharge, provided that I'd only use paypal for foreign entries. One no show with a paypal payment will create a positive result compared to the foreign entrants (about half my riders) paying on the line.

[StanThomas]

... if you have some people taking their card away at the end, others requiring the validated card back, and yet others not caring and not providing the sae, you have an organisers' nightmare.

That's pretty much what I do now. It doesn't cause me any difficulty, probably because my finishes involve a lot of sitting around waiting. However it's not for me to comment on other events. I wanted to to establish whether there's flexibility in the system and you've answered this part of my question for me. Thank you.

[RichForrest]

If we have to sign in on the day for the online entries how much work would it involve to put an extra box on the PP entry or a sheet at the start for "email me routesheet please" and "brevet card non return"?

I've not got a clue how the paypal set up works so ignore me if a daft idea.

Rich.

[Martin]

If we have to sign in on the day for the online entries how much work would it involve to put an extra box on the PP entry or a sheet at the start for "email me routesheet please" and "brevet card non return"?

AIUI online entry events are supposed to provide an online route sheet; the surcharge is to cover an SAE there's no facility to vary the payment depending on how many stamps you want the organiser to buy; in practice DNS/F's provide a lot of the SAE's anyway 

I do e-mail the route sheet back to all online entrants anyway in case they haven't read that they won't get a mailed copy.

[StanThomas]

...put an extra box on the PP entry or a sheet at the start for "email me routesheet please" and "brevet card non return"?

Yes, I like that idea. Thank you.

To avoid any confusion I should note that:
1. I currently provide my own online entry form for all riders. It re-directs to paypal.com to take the entry fee.
2. I hope to have a hand in the development of the common AUK entry system (if it goes ahead). Any and all comments on what might be nice to have are welcome.

[Ian H]

If the organiser uses the online entry list non-members will be included in the online results.

An online entrant does not need to complete a paper entry form.

Whether to ask for a brevet card SAE is entirely up to the organiser, but I'd suggest a surcharge to cover that cost.

The online option is going to be rolled out to non-members at some point soonish.

Not every organiser is given the option of self-validation.

[Martin]

Not every organiser is given the option of self-validation.

sorry I hadn't realised that; I thought it was trialled last year and rolled out to all organisers this year.

[StanThomas]

From AUK letter of 29 September 2008,

all organisers may self-validate their events provided:

• not BRM
• under 300km
• not a new organiser for season

[Martin]

a really trick new feature is that AUKs who eol are automatically entered on the online start sheet 

so make sure you don't put them in again...

[Ian H]

a really trick new feature is that AUKs who eol are automatically entered on the online start sheet 

so make sure you don't put them in again...

It doesn't always work. They have to return from Paypal to the AUK site to complete the process. If you don't get the second email message they're not on the list.

[Martin]

a really trick new feature is that AUKs who eol are automatically entered on the online start sheet  

so make sure you don't put them in again...

It doesn't always work. They have to return from Paypal to the AUK site to complete the process. If you don't get the second email message they're not on the list.

thanks; just tried it for the Anfractuous; I always double check my PayPal account anyway  

[valkyrie]

Just re-visited this thread as I'm pondering the payment options for my first audax as organiser. It's a 160km BP that I'm expecting to get a lot (mibbe 50 or so) of non-members on. The AUK website says that the PayPal option can't be used for non-members and recommends using EntryCentral or Active Network instead. Anyone here got any experience of using either of these websites? Any recommendations? I've just looked at EntryCentral and they seem to charge £1 per entry, so I think I'd have to charge £1.50 extra for online entry.

[Ian H]

For my permanents I've set up a slightly cumbersome system whereby riders are able to paypal the fee and download the routesheet,  but have to email an entry form. No one's tried it yet. It's on my website.

[Martin]

you can accept Paypal from non-members by just getting them to send you the payment direct (btw Paypal charges 39p on a £5.50 transaction so less than 2 2nd class stamps)

But you have to print out an entry form for them to sign on the day as they don't go through the normal member's gateway where it says Paypal entry assumes they have accepted the usual yada yada

Non-member direct Paypal would be very nice   the biggest problem would seem to be revealing your real email to all and sundry.

BTW for ECE's you also have to send the payment direct as no perms are set up for Paypal but this must be accompanied by details of the ECE either as a separate email or in the message box with the payment.

[saturn]

If you have access to a bit of webspace you can with a very simple form accept paypal entries from all. Unfortunately Paypal only offers 4 bespoke fields (on0, os0, on1, os1) to capture info in addition to what they provide via the payment processing (name, postal address & email address, item (event)).

That's certainly sufficient for a perm (where emergency contact details are not relevant) but it might be a push with a calendar event (although IIRC Danial Webb managed with last year's Cambrian events).

The form at Beacon Roads Cycling Club uses all 4 fields (name & email aren't essential as they come from Paypal but we wanted to allow someone to be able to enter a mate. The yes/no buttons at Beacon Roads Cycling Club define whether the entrant is a AUK/BC/CTC member and lead to a different payment amount.

Other fields you need for a calendar might be: AUK/CTC/BC no, DA/Club (maybe not essential), emergency contact, confirmation > 18yrs, acknowledgement of AUK T&C's. You may also find it useful to have separate parts of name & address in separate fields. If you can't capture what you need in the 4 optional paypal fields you need to have a 2 stage entry where the entrant (a) submits entry details via a form (for which you'll need a script) which are sent to the organiser in one email and (b) is forwarded to paypal to make the payment which is notified to you in a separate email.

A surcharge of £1 should cover paypal processing (20p + 3.4%) and the stamps & envelopes you'll need to provide and shouldn't put anybody off because they save 3 envelopes & stamps as well as a trip to the postbox.