Author Topic: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?  (Read 3322 times)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« on: September 07, 2020, 12:33:14 pm »
One of our metro mayoral* candidates (and ex-MP) has just come up with this as a suggestion.
Quote
An ambitious plan to take up space meant for cars in multi-storey car parks with space to lock bicycles will be one of the manifesto pledges of a metro mayor candidate.

As there is currently lots of unused space in the multi-storeys with many people still working from home, Stephen Williams said that “now would be a good time for a conversation” about switching over space from four wheels to two.

The former MP thinks that this could be free in council-owned car parks, with the likes of NCP perhaps levying a small fee for a lockable bike dock.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/bike-parks-could-replace-cars-in-some-car-parks/

Personally, I wouldn't, for three reasons: security, convenience and aesthetics.
Theft of cars might be rare nowadays but theft from vehicles is very common. Car parks give thieves the time and cover to work uninterrupted.
Car parks are largely in the wrong places. I want to park near my destination, not in the place it was convenient to build something fifty years ago.
Multistorey car parks are the ugliest type of building ever devised. Furthermore, they stink of exhaust fumes, spilt oil and piss, with the added thrill of possibly finding needles in the stairwell.

Nevertheless, I think it's great that a politician is even talking about the need for cycle parking.

*Metro mayor is directly elected mayor of a region consisting of several unitary authorities. Need not be metrosexual!
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2020, 12:58:06 pm »
Yes, if it was a convenient location for whatever I was visiting, which seems generally unlikely for shops and similar, but might be for a railway station.  Bike thieves work with impunity anyway, and at least it would be out of the rain.

Of course, a multistorey car park might be a cheap location to install some 'bike hub' style secure cycle parking, which becomes somewhat more attractive.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2020, 01:14:51 pm »
Yes, if it was a convenient location for whatever I was visiting, which seems generally unlikely for shops and similar, but might be for a railway station.  Bike thieves work with impunity anyway, and at least it would be out of the rain.

Of course, a multistorey car park might be a cheap location to install some 'bike hub' style secure cycle parking, which becomes somewhat more attractive.

Dutch station parking these days tends to be big multi story affairs, but they are a) staffed, b) very well lit and designed for it.

The concrete monstrosity that is the modern multi story carpark is somewhere I would try to avoid at all costs, especially if alone.

Part of the joy of cycling to somewhere is that you can park very close. If I goto the shops with a city bike, I'll park it outside each shop I goto, then move onto the next. When people take the carparking idea and apply it to cycle parking you end up with parking installed that noone uses because it's in the wrong place, and just badly designed. It always made me laugh that Canterbury had some bike parking that you couldn't actually cycle to.

For cycling to work, and not just the shops, then the standard for cycle parking can be judged more simply:

Would you lock your handbag/backpack with your phone, and/or laptop there?

if the answer to the above is no, it's not somewhere I am willing to store my bike.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2020, 01:16:15 pm »
Of course, a multistorey car park might be a cheap location to install some 'bike hub' style secure cycle parking, which becomes somewhat more attractive.
He uses the phrase "lockable bike dock" which sounds like it's taken straight from hire schemes but is unspecific. I agree a locker-style "cupboard" would be more attractive for long term parking, as well as worth many commuters paying for.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2020, 01:27:31 pm »
Yes, if it was a convenient location for whatever I was visiting, which seems generally unlikely for shops and similar

One of the few bits of infrastructure councils and capitalism did a decent job at providing in the 20th century is massive multistoreys bang in the middle of every town. If you're doing the version of shopping that involves walking around on your own two feet then I can see it being viable... if they made them secure and easy to find and pleasant and well maintained, which you know they're not going to.

Though there are a few that exist already. I've left my bike in one in Cambridge town centre and some of the NCPs in Soho have fenced off bike areas.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2020, 01:29:13 pm »
Of course, a multistorey car park might be a cheap location to install some 'bike hub' style secure cycle parking, which becomes somewhat more attractive.
He uses the phrase "lockable bike dock" which sounds like it's taken straight from hire schemes but is unspecific. I agree a locker-style "cupboard" would be more attractive for long term parking, as well as worth many commuters paying for people with the right shape bikes.

FTFY.

And, I'm not even thinking about the weird stuff.

When my friend got their shiny Kalkhoff e-bike we too the opportunity to ride to several of their regular lockered destinations and see if I could work out how to make the bike fit before they attempted it themselves (they have a condition that precludes too much heavy lifting).

Naturally, we were comprehensively defeated by the bike having 'Dutch' style handlebars, except in one case where the locker was actually wide enough for the bars, but couldn't cope with the height of the stem (the bike being designed for an rider of average height for a BRITISH man, and an upright riding position).

Much as I like the idea of lockers, they don't seem to be designed for proper bikes.  The secure room with standard cycle parking approach (Sheffield stands, or those double-decker things) seems to be something that people are more inclined to get right.

Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2020, 01:30:36 pm »
Yes, if it was a convenient location for whatever I was visiting, which seems generally unlikely for shops and similar

One of the few bits of infrastructure councils and capitalism did a decent job at providing in the 20th century is massive multistoreys bang in the middle of every town. If you're doing the version of shopping that involves walking around on your own two feet then I can see it being viable... if they made them secure and easy to find and pleasant and well maintained, which you know they're not going to.

Fair point.  I tend to cycle because my knee objects to that sort of traipsey wandering, so it wouldn't occur to me to use it that way.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2020, 01:31:37 pm »
Westfield (Stratford) have secure bike areas in some car parks, with dual level parking, rather like they do in foreigns like Dutchland. Seem to work well.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2020, 01:31:49 pm »
Of course, a multistorey car park might be a cheap location to install some 'bike hub' style secure cycle parking, which becomes somewhat more attractive.
He uses the phrase "lockable bike dock" which sounds like it's taken straight from hire schemes but is unspecific. I agree a locker-style "cupboard" would be more attractive for long term parking, as well as worth many commuters paying for people with the right shape bikes.

FTFY.

And, I'm not even thinking about the weird stuff.

When my friend got their shiny Kalkhoff e-bike we too the opportunity to ride to several of their regular lockered destinations and see if I could work out how to make the bike fit before they attempted it themselves (they have a condition that precludes too much heavy lifting).

Naturally, we were comprehensively defeated by the bike having 'Dutch' style handlebars, except in one case where the locker was actually wide enough for the bars, but couldn't cope with the height of the stem (the bike being designed for an rider of average height for a BRITISH man, and an upright riding position).

Much as I like the idea of lockers, they don't seem to be designed for proper bikes.  The secure room with standard cycle parking approach (Sheffield stands, or those double-decker things) seems to be something that people are more inclined to get right.
Actually, the same thought had occurred to me about Sheffield stands. They don't cope terribly well with tandems, Dutch/North Road handlebars or even modern MTB bars, not to mention trikes, recumbents, trailers...
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2020, 01:34:40 pm »
The secure room with standard cycle parking approach (Sheffield stands, or those double-decker things) seems to be something that people are more inclined to get right.
These sexist double decker things?
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/new-bike-storage-at-temple-meads-branded-sexist-infrastructure/
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2020, 01:39:02 pm »
Actually, the same thought had occurred to me about Sheffield stands. They don't cope terribly well with tandems, Dutch/North Road handlebars or even modern MTB bars, not to mention trikes, recumbents, trailers...

The 'M' shaped ones are an improvement for some of the non-diamond-framed bicycles, particularly small-wheeled bikes, and they're just the thing for USS recumbents.

Trikes and trailers are relatively non-fussy about what you secure them too, as they're free-standing.  The main issue is whether there's room to do it without causing an obstruction.  (My usual method of locking the bike with trailer to Sheffield stands at the shops involves parking the bike in the usual manner, then lifting the back of the trailer and rotating it about the hitch to bring it in front of an adjacent stand, to lock its wheel too.  This takes up 2-3 stands, which I'll start worrying about when I see the cycle parking even close to half full.

I believe there's a standards document somewhere that recommends a sort of super-low Sheffield stand for securing things like recumbent trikes and cargo cycles to.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2020, 01:42:33 pm »
The secure room with standard cycle parking approach (Sheffield stands, or those double-decker things) seems to be something that people are more inclined to get right.
These sexist double decker things?
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/new-bike-storage-at-temple-meads-branded-sexist-infrastructure/

Yeah.  I'm not really a fan, but they're okay if the people with height, strength and lightweight bikes use the top level and leave the lower free for those who can't lift.  Best installed alongside a few Sheffield stands for those with non-standard cycles.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2020, 01:43:14 pm »
As regards trikes, I was thinking of the width between stands. I don't see many, here at least, that are wide enough for a trike plus another bike. And most of the Sheffield stands in central Bristol are in use most of the time. At least the ones I want to use are!
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2020, 01:45:10 pm »
For cycling to work, and not just the shops, then the standard for cycle parking can be judged more simply:

Would you lock your handbag/backpack with your phone, and/or laptop there?

if the answer to the above is no, it's not somewhere I am willing to store my bike.

J
Well, I wouldn't leave any of those items in a parked car either!
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2020, 01:46:43 pm »
And, I'm not even thinking about the weird stuff.

When my friend got their shiny Kalkhoff e-bike we too the opportunity to ride to several of their regular lockered destinations and see if I could work out how to make the bike fit before they attempted it themselves (they have a condition that precludes too much heavy lifting).

Naturally, we were comprehensively defeated by the bike having 'Dutch' style handlebars, except in one case where the locker was actually wide enough for the bars, but couldn't cope with the height of the stem (the bike being designed for an rider of average height for a BRITISH man, and an upright riding position).

Much as I like the idea of lockers, they don't seem to be designed for proper bikes.  The secure room with standard cycle parking approach (Sheffield stands, or those double-decker things) seems to be something that people are more inclined to get right.

Bike lockers exist here, I most recently found some next to the bus top in Holwerd in Friesland. I would hope that lockers installed in .NL would be big enough for a typical omafiets...

Thus I propose that lockers themselves aren't inherently shit, but that as implemented in .UK, the probably are.

Yes, if it was a convenient location for whatever I was visiting, which seems generally unlikely for shops and similar

One of the few bits of infrastructure councils and capitalism did a decent job at providing in the 20th century is massive multistoreys bang in the middle of every town. If you're doing the version of shopping that involves walking around on your own two feet then I can see it being viable... if they made them secure and easy to find and pleasant and well maintained, which you know they're not going to.

Fair point.  I tend to cycle because my knee objects to that sort of traipsey wandering, so it wouldn't occur to me to use it that way.

We have different ideas of centre. In the towns/cities I've lived in in the UK, they have not been close enough IMHO to be suitable for bike parking.

Actually, the same thought had occurred to me about Sheffield stands. They don't cope terribly well with tandems, Dutch/North Road handlebars or even modern MTB bars, not to mention trikes, recumbents, trailers...

They handle it better than pretty much all other designs. When you consider the tightly packed wheel benders, or the ablest crappy double decker things, if implemented properly, Sheffield stands are the least worst design for general "bike parking" They don't meet my requirements for security in terms of the handbag test as above. But for general parking at the shops on the highstreet, they are the best option.

Well, I wouldn't leave any of those items in a parked car either!

Locked in the boot of a car, many people would outside their place of work...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2020, 01:50:05 pm »
Agree that Sheffields are the best form of public bike parking, it's just the spacing (laterally but also sometimes longitudinally) and general siting is often sub-par.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2020, 02:00:19 pm »
Also, sometimes people make inferior wanky variations in the name of aesthetics.  My local Sainsbury's Emporium of Toothy Comestibles has stands with a curve on one side, which might be a useful innovation in terms of accepting a wide variety of handlebar height, but they've installed them with the curved side outwards (ie. the opposite way round to what you'd want in order to wheel your bike in easily and faff with loading panniers) and - originally - too close to the wall.

Mr Tesco's Emporium of Slightly Cheaper Comestibles has a national policy of crappy 3-bike 'toast rack' stands, secured with a couple of loose M10 bolts.

Supermarkets in general like to hide the cycle parking somewhere daft.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2020, 02:23:30 pm »
Supermarkets in general like to hide the cycle parking somewhere daft.

This is one of the things that bugs me about much of UK bike parking "Round the back by the bins" is the best description in far too many cases.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2020, 02:40:15 pm »
"Round the back by the bins" is the best description in far too many cases.

J
I fear that cycle parking in a multistorey car park is also "round the back by the bins".

Nevertheless, as I said earlier, it's really quite impressive that a politician is talking about this stuff at all.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

simonp

Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2020, 02:46:30 pm »
I've parked my bike in a multi-storey car park in Cambridge before. There are at least two with bike parking on their lower levels. One had a bike shop, the other a small bike repair service operating out of a container, last time I was there.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2020, 02:46:48 pm »
I fear that cycle parking in a multistorey car park is also "round the back by the bins".

Nevertheless, as I said earlier, it's really quite impressive that a politician is talking about this stuff at all.

Well yes, there is that too...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2020, 02:58:12 pm »
I fear that cycle parking in a multistorey car park is also "round the back by the bins".

Nevertheless, as I said earlier, it's really quite impressive that a politician is talking about this stuff at all.

Well yes, there is that too...

J
Having said that, I don't recall him doing anything in favour of cycling when he was MP.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2020, 03:06:35 pm »
Coming down would be fun

Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2020, 03:11:53 pm »
Nevertheless, as I said earlier, it's really quite impressive that a politician is talking about this stuff at all.

Politicians *love* to talk about cycling when presented with an idea that won't inconvenience the car-owning public at all.

When he's talking about whether the multistoreys should exist for cars at all, we can be impressed.

Coming down would be fun

If you're in London you can enjoy the world's most elaborate taxi dropoff layby with very little risk of encountering a vehicle.

(Both those spirals serve no other purpose)

Re: Would you park your bike in a multistorey car park?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2020, 03:12:40 pm »
The secure room with standard cycle parking approach (Sheffield stands, or those double-decker things) seems to be something that people are more inclined to get right.
These sexist double decker things?
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/new-bike-storage-at-temple-meads-branded-sexist-infrastructure/

Why does it have to be sexist? I'm male, 5'4" with zero upper body strength. Last time we were at a station and the lifts weren't working Mrs Trekker helped me get my loaded touring bike up the stairs.

On Topic. In the same town as the above reference about the lifts not working in Mestre, Italy they have a two level 'Bici park' with security on site. You pay a few euros per day to keep it there or buy a season ticket. Proper bike stands, plenty of space between bikes so you don't clash handlebars. I had no concerns leaving the bikes there for three days despite the s***hole that is Mestre outside the bike storage 'bici park'.

If we really are reducing car usage then one floor of a MS could be allocated to such an enterprise.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped