Author Topic: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'  (Read 2906 times)

'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« on: 20 September, 2009, 11:44:23 am »
In today's Times

Despite the headline, a reasonably well-balanced article, I thought

Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #1 on: 20 September, 2009, 11:50:29 am »
Very good article, but I'm not going to hold my breath

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #2 on: 20 September, 2009, 11:54:44 am »
More power to their collective elbows.

But also no breath holding here.

Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #3 on: 20 September, 2009, 11:56:07 am »
Comments are entirely predictable ::-)

I believe this is normal practice on the continent where presumably it works ok

Newspapers have been punting round scare stories of it being introduced in the UK for three or four years at least
“There is no point in using the word 'impossible' to describe something that has clearly happened.”
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border-rider

Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #4 on: 20 September, 2009, 11:58:23 am »
Quote
If a cyclist were hit by a car, the presumption of blame would fall on the driver, while a cyclist would automatically be blamed if he or she knocked down a pedestrian.

That's an interesting and logical part of this.  It may help to make the case, given the tabloid perception of cyclists as granny-flatteners.  It might also be a lever towards introducing some sort of licence/registration for cyclists to "aid their identification in case of accident".  And possibly might lead to a requirement for third party insurance.

Are these necessarily good things ?

Julian

  • samoture
Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #5 on: 20 September, 2009, 12:11:57 pm »
I'd hazard a guess that "cyclists will be blamed for hitting pedestrians" is in there as a sop to angry motorists and would never make it into a final draft.  Registration of cyclists is plain unworkable.

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #6 on: 20 September, 2009, 12:17:46 pm »
I'm also assuming that - like the European system - it is only a presumption of blame.

In the case where the cyclist is clearly to blame, then the presumption can be overturned in the court.

Julian

  • samoture
Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #7 on: 20 September, 2009, 12:24:48 pm »
I've just posted something to that effect on the site. 

In a case where a cyclist is clearly to blame, it won't get as far as court because the cyclist won't sue in the first place.  In a case where it's uncertain (say a motorist goes through an amber-red light at the same time that a cyclist goes through a red light) the blame will fall on the motorist, who has a licence and therefore should know better. 

It's really, really not that radical an idea.

Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #8 on: 20 September, 2009, 01:11:58 pm »
Is this phrase accurate?

"will make the most powerful vehicle involved in a collision automatically liable for insurance and compensation purposes"

If so, and it covers the much more common car-on-car action, it will would add an interesting new twist to the game of motoring top trumps.
[Quote/]Adrian, you're living proof that bandwidth is far too cheap.[/Quote]

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #9 on: 20 September, 2009, 01:49:01 pm »
What - like buy a really low powered car, and drive like a numpty - merrily claiming of everyone else?
 ;D

Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #10 on: 20 September, 2009, 02:35:53 pm »
Something along those lines
[Quote/]Adrian, you're living proof that bandwidth is far too cheap.[/Quote]

ed_o_brain

Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #11 on: 20 September, 2009, 04:09:27 pm »
I thought the write up it was a bit, well, rubbish.

The whole point is that motorists have a duty of care toward more vulnerable road users, just as cyclists have a duty of car toward pedestrians.

If a motorist is involved in an accident with a cyclist, even if the cyclist was in the wrong, the question is whether the motorist was driving up to the required standard and taking the necessary care. In my thinking, this was what the legislation is about.

Instead what we have these days works something like:

1. Motorist collides with cyclist
2. Cyclist writes to the motorist with a bill for loss of earnings, damaged bike etc.
3. Motorist passes the letter on to their insurer
4. Motorist's insurer writes to the cyclist stating they are not entitled to any compensation  unless they can prove they were wearing a helmet, not wearing hi viz, cycling in a safe and courteous manner, yada yada and please cough up for Mr. Motorist's new front bumper + respray.
5. Step 5. depends on whether or not the cyclist has insurance.

A certain Mr. Leg put this more eloquently then myself on CycleChat. Any how, when drivers are to blame for the vast majority of accidents, it's absurd that the legal system leaves cyclist on such a sticky wicket.

I think the comments on that article, if they were from a reasonable cross section of drivers, would give a strong indication that driver training is not up to scratch. However, I will concede that it is probably the usual group of speedophiles and that the general public must have a little more empathy.

gordon taylor

Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #12 on: 20 September, 2009, 06:59:38 pm »
I'm pretty sure that the system works in the Netherlands (and other continental places) where the more vulnerable road user is assumed to be the "victim." I think that is one reason that Dutch cyclists get so annoyed when pedestrian tourists wander into the cycle lanes.

Overall I think it is a good idea - the person who can do the most damage has to take the most care.

nicknack

  • Hornblower
Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #13 on: 20 September, 2009, 07:36:15 pm »
As usual some of the commenters are not living in the same universe as me. They think that you can deliberately throw yourself off a bike in front of a car and not get hurt. I'd love to see them all demonstrate this to me. I'm sure it would be a useful skill.
There's no vibrations, but wait.

simonp

Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #14 on: 20 September, 2009, 07:44:19 pm »
What - like buy a really low powered car, and drive like a numpty - merrily claiming of everyone else?
 ;D


My ears are burning.


rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #15 on: 20 September, 2009, 07:53:15 pm »
Quote from: Provocative Times Article
Such scheme would place the presumption of blame against whoever was driving the most powerful vehicle involved in an accident,

So that means the train driver is presumed to be at fault when a numpty drives their car onto a level crossing, and gets hit by a train?
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

sas

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Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #16 on: 20 September, 2009, 10:06:10 pm »
Quote from: Provocative Times Article
Such scheme would place the presumption of blame against whoever was driving the most powerful vehicle involved in an accident,
So that means the train driver is presumed to be at fault when a numpty drives their car onto a level crossing, and gets hit by a train?
The operative word being presumption... which I'd interpret as in the absence of evidence to the contrary. Anyway, does anyone think the government are seriously considering this? Or is it just another of those stories that gets picked up every now and then as breaking news?
I am nothing and should be everything

mattc

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Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #17 on: 21 September, 2009, 09:08:29 am »
I think this article makes a mistake: although it says:

Similar policies — which would not extend to criminal law — have already been adopted by Germany and Holland,

... it is not made clear that this is about 3rd-party payouts for damages, NOT being imprisoned for dangerous driving because some drunk cyclist RLJs under your Volvo.

If you are driving something that can easily kill, you are already obliged to insure against theese things, so it's no big deal. If you're cycling, the chances of killing someone by accident are teeny-tiny.

As usual, this aspect is completely missed by most critics.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: 'Cycling Plan to Blame Drivers for All Crashes'
« Reply #18 on: 21 September, 2009, 09:18:57 am »
I'd hazard a guess that "cyclists will be blamed for hitting pedestrians" is in there as a sop to angry motorists and would never make it into a final draft.  Registration of cyclists is plain unworkable.

Boris actually wrote a sort piece somewhere describing why registering cyclists is unworkable. I wish I'd bookmarked it, because it was brilliantly written.
The abstract was: cars are supposed to be registered, insured and the drivers traceable. However, drivers still drive badly, still dodge, tax and insurance, drive unlicensed and fake their addresses.
Therefore the system currently doesn't work, so why copy it?