Author Topic: Di2 Failure mode  (Read 45532 times)

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #300 on: 31 May, 2018, 10:38:56 pm »
Brucey, your argument seems to be "Di2 isn't as reliable as X, therefore no one should ever ride it." ..
not quite; what I'm saying is that it would be easy to be swayed by the alleged benefits of such a system without taking full account of the downsides, or if there is really much benefit to be had.  For a good number of cycling uses, simple is good.

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No one can win this argument, it can only ever go round in circles.

Isn't that what we do on our bikes? How fitting.

But if it makes folk consider their priorities rather more carefully, maybe it has done no harm.

cheers

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #301 on: 31 May, 2018, 10:46:39 pm »
For those that have not been paying attention; this equipment is not as reliable  as it should be, and there is little you can do in the way of pro-active maintenance to improve that, or to fix many of the problems by the roadside.

Get it in the right gear, disconnect cable. Ride in a single gear, or maybe 2 gears (front only)...

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as usual that is not quite what I said. Amongst other things I came up with a perfectly reasonable suggestion as to why it might work OK on the workstand and not when you were actually riding the bike. Have another read why not.

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All we have really had is folk saying " I bought it and it hasn't broken yet" on the pro side.

But that's all that matters, isn't it? Whether it works for each individual?


there are plenty of users for whom the system has not worked at all well.  Like I have said before, a few happy people does not a good and reliable system make....I got bored of recording those professional cycle event in which the race was ruined by an avoidable failure of electronic shifting. Maybe I  would have been better off listing those in which it definitely wasn't.

Chris Froome has won three grand tours with Di2 gears...

Tom Dumoulin won a Giro with Di2 gears...

Simon Yates won 3 stages and and spent a long time in Pink... with Di2 gears...

But yeah, Di2 ruins races...

Please share your data on riders who have had their grand tour rides ruined by Di2.

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I said in most cases, for most users the benefits are slight. Which does nor excludes the possibility that for some folk that is not the case. You seem to  have extrapolated your interpretation of it to mean something different. BTW the fact that some folk are happy may have little to do with any real benefits the system might have; that is the way "the emperor's new gears" will work...

Oh I dunno. Working gears is quite a benefit for many. Let's face it, for a substantial proportion of the bike market, they don't touch the workings of the bike, if there's a problem, they take it to the LBS, drink coffee and wait for magic to be done. They don't care about the rest. For them the benefits like sync shifting, satellite shifters, and having something shiny are real tangible benefits.

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Yes, and you have completely ignored *MY* reasoning for thinking of going for Di2, and the advantages it gives to *ME* in my use case.

Not ignored, just not made comment on every aspect. If you look I think you will find that I made a potentially very helpful suggestion regarding brake couplings which is relevant if you want to go down the hydro route. Thank you very much. You're welcome.... 

Except I gave a detailed explanation why I wasn't going down the hydro brakes route.

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1) re shifter position. If you spend most of your time on tri-bars, I would suggest that you put your shifters on them, even if they are your only set of shifters (BTW there is more than one way of skinning this particular cat).  Pardon me for stating the b.obvious, but you could get yourself another (quite nice) bike with the shifters exactly where you like, for the cost of a Di2 system.

I could, but that would defeat the idea of what I want this bike to do. The bike I am building is my 2nd bike, for a defined purpose. I already have a fully cable operated commuter/hack bike, the equivalent of a subaru impressa...

But now I have that, and it works, I am looking at my next bike, something like a Mclaren...

Putting the shifters only on the tribars is nice, when I cross afsluitdijk, as I follow across the plains. But when I hit the bottom of the alps, it starts to lose practicality. Then I want to be able to shift gears when on the hoods... or the tops...

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2) re separable bikes. Yes with Di2 you get one wire for the gears at the break in the frame. Instead of two. Big whup. The reality of packing a bike that is separable is that the couplings for the gear wires are a bit annoying but  usually not a very big deal; there are plenty of other things to worry about.

If I'm reassembling a bike in the middle of an airport or train station, I don't want to be faffing indexing gears...

The cable operated gears can be quite sensitive to changes in cable length. I'd rather not fettle that. Especially without a proper work stand.

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Upthread you asked about Di2 failure modes and I pointed out very early on that, being a complex system, there are very many potential failure modes on offer, few of which can be dealt with by the roadside.

And for every one of them someone has pointed out that either cable operated gears share a similar failure mode, or that failure mode can be bodged/worked around...

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It doesn't really matter how many people say "well I like it" and "mine hasn't broken yet"; it takes many thousands of such to be statistically significant or to counter just a few known failures, if you want to be sure of buying a properly reliable system.

The plural of anecdote is Data.

The singular of data is anecdote. You have provided an Anecdote, everyone else has given me data.

In fact This thread can be summed up as you saying Di2 is the devils work, and everyone else saying "I like it".

James Hayden rode across Europe in 8 days, 23 hours, 14 minutes, he had Di2 shifters.
Froome won 3 grand tours in a row, he had Di2 shifters.
Mark Beaumont rode around the world in 78 days, he had Di2 Shifters.
Hippy of this parish rode both TABR, and TCR last year, he used Di2 shifters. He's just arrived in .us for this years TABR. He has Di2 shifters.

Do I need to go on?

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 You may have heard of "Occam's razor"; this (in essence) suggests that the most simple hypothesis that explains the known facts is most likely to be the correct one.  I would propose that we employ "Occam's bike selector" as a principle, which suggests that the simplest touring bike that will do the job properly is likely to be the best one to use.

Occams razor, yes, very familiar with the concept. So basically you're saying a fixed gear bike... or is that too complex and I should use a Unicycle?

As covered in this post on this thread:
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=107971.msg2286610;topicseen#msg2286610


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This means choosing your priorities carefully; for example being able to get where you are going with your bike is likely to be a deal breaker, so a separable bike makes sense if there really are no other options (NB rinko works well....). Having to move your hands 6" on the minority of your gear shifts... meh... perhaps not so much.

Rinko would be way too much faff for getting on an ICE... or the Eurostar... or flying. Sod that for a game of soldiers.

Moving my hands to change gears is pissing me off. This annoys me on most rides. Di2 fixes this. Makes me less annoyed, sounds good to me...

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In arguing this particular corner I have had to put up with being mocked, derided, misquoted, misunderstood and countless other things besides. It is all rather tiresome and suggests to me that those arguing the other corner are finding it difficult to provide a decent counter-argument.

You have failed to cite actual cases of who has had Di2 fail on them in ways that have been show stoppers. You have failed to give a solid argument that doesn't come across as anything more than some grumpy old fart who doesn't like this new fangled stuff...

I've listed a number of riders who have done awe inspiring rides on bikes with Di2. I've given my reasons, for my use case, for why I am thinking that Di2 may be the thing for me.

Please provide evidence to back up your assertions.

or to put it bluntly. [Citation Needed]

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #302 on: 31 May, 2018, 10:56:11 pm »
People are getting this wound up because 'somebody is wrong on the internet'?

Ride whatever you like. Why the hell should I care what you ride? I might feel free to smile if your choice (whatever it is) stops you from finishing an event but that is still your choice.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #303 on: 31 May, 2018, 11:27:47 pm »
if you want to see Di2 systems breaking, just watch any live professional cycle event.  On their way to their tour wins all those riders mentioned above experienced Di2 system failures. If you have a back up vehicle with a spare bike, or like sitting by the side of the road/in the bike shop as your companions ride off, great, otherwise I suggest you choose something different.

BTW if you have separable cables, with joiners, you don't need to do any adjustments to indexed gears when putting your bike back together. This is a non-problem which you are trying to 'solve' by spending a small fortune on a system that is not a good match for most people's touring needs.

I could go on but I'm very, very bored with this wrong-headed discussion  indeed.

 BTW I usually stop and help people with broken bikes, but I am disinclined to do so if they have a broken Di2 system. Why? Well leaving aside that (with few exceptions) they have a poorly adjusted set of priorities if they bought it in the first place, in contrast to most other gearing systems if it stops working there usually is f***-all you can do about it.



Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #304 on: 31 May, 2018, 11:39:56 pm »
OMG! I have just read this thread- reason being I am seriously considering building a Di2 bike.
I have several of my own reasons for this- not least is that I can afford it LOL.
The end result of reading all this is I think I might need to also order an electric can opener to go with it  ;D

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #305 on: 31 May, 2018, 11:46:54 pm »
if you want to see Di2 systems breaking, just watch any live professional cycle event.  On their way to their tour wins all those riders mentioned above experienced Di2 system failures. If you have a back up vehicle with a spare bike, or like sitting by the side of the road/in the bike shop as your companions ride off, great, otherwise I suggest you choose something different.

I watched 2/3rds of the Giro this year. Didn't see that many mechanicals, couple of punctures, nothing else memorable. Could you list all the riders who had Di2 trouble at the Giro?

Which stages of the last 5 TDF's, or last years Vuelta, or this Giro did Froome have Di2 issues?

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BTW if you have separable cables, with joiners, you don't need to do any adjustments to indexed gears when putting your bike back together. This is a non-problem which you are trying to 'solve' by spending a small fortune on a system that is not a good match for most people's touring needs.

Yes, but this thread isn't about most peoples touring needs. This is about my needs. And I'm not touring.

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I could go on but I'm very, very bored with this wrong-headed discussion  indeed.

 BTW I usually stop and help people with broken bikes, but I am disinclined to do so if they have a broken Di2 system. Why? Well leaving aside that (with few exceptions) they have a poorly adjusted set of priorities if they bought it in the first place, in contrast to most other gearing systems if it stops working there usually is f***-all you can do about it.

Depends how it stops working. Which is the whole point of this thread. I tend to slow down and offer to help riders, but I've not had anyone take me up on the offer, most seem to have got it all sorted. I was riding at the weekend in Limburg, and there was a big Sportif going on that shared some of the same roads. I saw a few Pixie visits, but everyone seemed to have company and were fixing. I offered help, everyone declined.

I wouldn't say poorly adjusted priorities. Just different. As stated. For me being able to have multiple shifters is worth the additional risk. Not everyone looks at the world the same way you do.

I am not you (you'd think the boobs are a give away, but hey).

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #306 on: 01 June, 2018, 12:41:28 am »
George Bennet's GC went down the poop chute in this year's giro when his Di2 system went into 'crash mode' at the foot of a major climb. He hadn't crashed, BTW. There were plenty of others too.  If you really want to know all the failures I suggest you do your own research. Like I said I got bored of it; pretty much every race had someone who needed a bike change and quite a few riders have got into such a bate that they have thrown their bike in the bushes. It'd be funny if it were not so sad. It was quite exciting when Froome's Di2 gears stopped working for no good reason on stage 9 of the TdF last year and Aru attacked, but I'd far sooner that stupid bike problems didn't affect race results.



Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #307 on: 01 June, 2018, 06:56:49 am »
OMG! I have just read this thread- reason being I am seriously considering building a Di2 bike.
I have several of my own reasons for this- not least is that I can afford it LOL.
The end result of reading all this is I think I might need to also order an electric can opener to go with it  ;D

It's not absolutely vital, unless you're left-handed LOL ;)

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #308 on: 01 June, 2018, 07:20:55 am »
George Bennet's GC went down the poop chute in this year's giro when his Di2 system went into 'crash mode' at the foot of a major climb. He hadn't crashed, BTW. There were plenty of others too.  If you really want to know all the failures I suggest you do your own research. Like I said I got bored of it; pretty much every race had someone who needed a bike change and quite a few riders have got into such a bate that they have thrown their bike in the bushes. It'd be funny if it were not so sad. It was quite exciting when Froome's Di2 gears stopped working for no good reason on stage 9 of the TdF last year and Aru attacked, but I'd far sooner that stupid bike problems didn't affect race results.

Here's the problem with your argument...

Last year, IIRC, all TdF teams were using electronic shifting. Apparently mechanicals never happened before the introduction of Di2....

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #309 on: 01 June, 2018, 09:54:52 am »
This thread's become quite useful. If Di2 ever comes down to the price of an electric can opener, I'll seriously consider it. And if I ever ended up living with Barakta(!), I'd buy an electric can opener. But at the moment I'm happy without either. (And if Barakta visits, I'll open cans and rig up an extension cable to charge her electric trike, I don't think it'll go through the door.)
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #310 on: 01 June, 2018, 11:41:12 am »
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There were plenty of others too.  If you really want to know all the failures I suggest you do your own research.

So I did the research:  I googled "Di2 failures in major races"  and found reference to two failures on last years TdF stage 9.  One was a crash and the other was Froome.  The suggestion is that he had a specialist home made shift button as there was no other reason for the gears to stop shifting.

I cannot find another story until back in 2013 when Goss and Griepel may have had problems.  That  http://cyclocosm.com/2013/07/can-we-please-stop-ruining-bike-races-with-electronic-shifting/ does seem very reminiscent of Brucey's comments including the high def photos.

As far as I can see there are a couple of non-crash related problems in the last 5 years in major races.  That seems pretty good to me considering the abuse these guys give their bikes (ie. power through the chainline)

Of course, the real reason there are no reports is that Shimano, SRAM and Campagnolo have bought off the cycling press with launch junkets in nice places. Nothing to do with a very high MTBF.

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #311 on: 01 June, 2018, 11:59:41 am »
there have been many, many more than that; 'tip of the iceberg' stuff, possibly. Most of the incidents have not been greatly publicised, presumably for the reasons you say.  Others are just not of great interest, in the same way as if a domestique gets a puncture and goes out the back.  You might see it on live coverage but not otherwise, unless it happens to a leading rider, and even then it might not make the highlights.

Just off the top of my head another couple of incidents; in the UK RR championships (three?) years ago one of the leading contenders was sidelined because his Di2 system just stopped working. In the ToB last year (or the year before) one of the favourites for the TT stage had to ride the whole thing in one gear; his Di2 rear mech failed about half an hour before his start. He scrounged another RD from another team (team sky IIRC) but it didn't work because they were using the latest generation of parts and he wasn't, so much to everyone's infuriation, they couldn't make his system talk the RD in the right way, not in the time available.  He was very well placed on the stage, despite riding the course (strong headwind out, tailwind home) in one gear and would have had a pretty good chance of winning it had he had working gears.

cheers

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #312 on: 01 June, 2018, 12:14:01 pm »
As I said, electronic has replaced mechanical in the peloton. It's poor logic going on about di2 failures causing issues in races whilst ignoring all the issues caused by mechanical gears prior to the ubiquity of di2. You understand this, yes?

Schleck lost a Tour de France due to a poor shift and a subsequent dropped chain (On mechanical). David Millar has a tale to tell also.

I can't recall anybody losing a Tour due to Di2.

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #313 on: 01 June, 2018, 12:14:31 pm »
I am sorry but I thought you had a dossier of hundreds of such failures.  You have come up with 2.  Again this suggests the MTBF is actually pretty good.

i agree that the early systems were temperamental mainly because people played with them.  Shimano were quite clear that the plugs were pushed in and then left undisturbed.  A lot of people fiddles and each time you unclipped the cable the sealing reduced and water got in. very similar to multiple adjustments of cables leading to damage.

I accept that failure of the electronic brain is likely to be terminal for my gear changing and leave me stuck in the middle of the range.  this is no different to a cable failure where with no spare it can be bodged into a get me home gear.  On the other hand I strongly suspect that the reliability is much higher than cable in everyday life.  I have not checked my gear cables for over 5 years.  i give the Rd an occasional drop of chain lube at the same time as the chain.

I am afraid that i just do not accept the frequency of problems you claim.  Even if they were as common as you claim without the total number of miles ridden on Di2 the figure is meaningless.

The adoption by unsponsored ultra distance riders suggests that at the really sharp end of reliability and ease of use Di2 is worth the money

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #314 on: 01 June, 2018, 12:16:46 pm »
Pre-di2 mechanical systems broke in races.

We shouldn't use them either.

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #315 on: 01 June, 2018, 04:12:39 pm »
as I have repeatedly said, I soon got very bored of noting when Di2 systems clapped out in races. I mention the ones I did because they stuck in my mind, and others might recall them.  It seems to me that the number of races I have watched in which electronic shifting fails and potentially alters the race result greatly exceeds those in which this doesn't happen.

I paid attention to this because

a) I was a bit interested and
b) I was wondering if a system this complex by its very nature could be made reliable enough to be worth thinking about buying for my uses.

Well on the latter point I soon came to the conclusion 'no' it wasn't and I didn't watch or note as carefully any more.

I don't watch that much cycle sport these days; just a fairly small percentage of that available. Yet I constantly see these things happen.  It is of no real benefit to anyone (not even me) to collect this information, (with the possible exception of pointless bloody arguments like this one), so I don't bother. Most teams etc who use it in the public eye are effectively being paid to use it (whether they admit it or not) and they are hardly likely to dwell on any failures.  I don't have any special axe to grind except to point out that if you think this kind of system is a panacea for all ills, it isn't; frankly I think that many on the other side of this discussion must be half blind, delusional, or both.

Bikes have and always will break and go wrong in races.  The mere act of unsubtly hurling a chain from one sprocket to another is hardly likely to be 100% reliable under any circumstances; "c'est brutal, mais ca marche...!"  yet the thing that characterises Di2 failures on pro bikes is that there could hardly be more care and attention paid to them yet they still clap out seemingly without warning or just provocation. If a mechanical system goes badly wrong there is usually a reason and the mechanic responsible (if there is one) might be fired if he does the same thing twice. Yet when Di2 systems clap out it is "no-one's fault"...

I am old enough to remember the introduction of both indexed gears and STIs into pro racing and the former was accompanied by a friction mode as backup. In the early days this was commonly brought into play. STIs were accompanied by an index adjuster  on the DT bosses, in many cases with a Quick-action lever, so that the rider could soon make adjustments if it became necessary.  Both were sensible features without which these parts may not have gained much traction in the peloton.Di2 is jolly clever and all that but really if it goes wrong on the road, you could do with a spare bike; good thing race service has improved in the big stage races then.... ::-)

I understand why pro teams might use Di2; it is made worth their while to do so; despite its extra weight it offers a small advantage to those riding bikes that are up against the weight limit anyway, and a spare bike is never far away.  But having said that, I think that if Di2 etc ceased to exist tomorrow it wouldn't have a noticeably adverse effect on racing; quite the reverse. For 'everyone else' it arguably adds weight, complexity where there need not be any, and renders your once simple machine nigh-on unfixable when it goes wrong.  Not the kind of progress that should be welcomed, except by the gullible and gadget-obsessed perhaps....

cheers


Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #316 on: 01 June, 2018, 04:20:11 pm »
I see Di2 as being a bit like smartphones.

I mean, sure, they're a bucket of engineering compromises, and if you literally want a thing that just makes phone calls they're not as good as a trusty Nokia.  But they open up new possibilities.  When's the last time you saw someone using a DAISY player or a taxi meter?

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #317 on: 01 June, 2018, 04:24:08 pm »
Not the kind of progress that should be welcomed, except by the gullible and gadget-obsessed perhaps....

cheers

See, there you go again with personal jibes, Brucey.
Spurious irrelevant arguments about racing, and no actual experience of riding and living with a Di2 bike.

But you know best, of course. About absolutely everything apparently.

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #318 on: 01 June, 2018, 04:27:00 pm »
I see Di2 as being a bit like smartphones.

I mean, sure, they're a bucket of engineering compromises, and if you literally want a thing that just makes phone calls they're not as good as a trusty Nokia.  But they open up new possibilities.  When's the last time you saw someone using a DAISY player or a taxi meter?

Not least that you can change rear gear with your left hand. Or indeed with synchro shift, operate a 22 gear system with one hand of your choice....from several places on your bars

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #319 on: 01 June, 2018, 04:35:23 pm »

 You may have heard of "Occam's razor"; this (in essence) suggests that the most simple hypothesis that explains the known facts is most likely to be the correct one.  I would propose that we employ "Occam's bike selector" as a principle, which suggests that the simplest touring bike that will do the job properly is likely to be the best one to use.


Since when has this thread been about touring bikes? 

Chris N

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #320 on: 01 June, 2018, 04:39:31 pm »
Just how long are you tedious bell ends going to drag this argument out for? :facepalm:

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #321 on: 01 June, 2018, 04:46:49 pm »
Since when has this thread been about touring bikes?

IIRC the OP asked in reference to a planned touring build.

cheers

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #322 on: 01 June, 2018, 04:59:17 pm »
Since when has this thread been about touring bikes?

IIRC the OP asked in reference to a planned touring build.

I thought it was about endurance racing?

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #323 on: 01 June, 2018, 05:13:19 pm »
Since when has this thread been about touring bikes?

IIRC the OP asked in reference to a planned touring build.

I thought it was about endurance racing?

Wasn't the Paris-Roubaix Sportive mentioned at one point - or am I thinking of somewhere else? World Championship Open Can competition? To let the worms out?

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #324 on: 01 June, 2018, 05:19:03 pm »
Since when has this thread been about touring bikes?

IIRC the OP asked in reference to a planned touring build.

I thought it was about endurance racing?

Rumbled... And there was me keeping my endurance racing aspirations quiet, limiting it to only mentioning it in half a dozen threads. Damn... or something...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/