Author Topic: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do  (Read 41452 times)

Paul

  • L'enfer, c'est les autos.
Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #175 on: 08 June, 2019, 12:49:05 am »
It's almost 3 years since those first, horrible posts. I'm so glad you're so recovered.

Who's the guy in the photo with you?
What's so funny about peace, love and understanding?

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #176 on: 08 June, 2019, 07:10:25 am »
That's great, looking confident.   :thumbsup:

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #177 on: 08 June, 2019, 12:22:29 pm »
It's almost 3 years since those first, horrible posts. I'm so glad you're so recovered.

Who's the guy in the photo with you?
Dr Shash Bhakta. He's a consultant restorative dentistry a Leeds Dental Institute. He did all my surgery after the initial surgery on the day of the accident.

His PhD is in managing bone loss following trauma, so I feel very lucky to have had him looking after me. At every stage, it seemed like good enough wasn't good enough for him. I recall early on I told him how sad I was to have lost my smile. He grinned and said he'd make me look beautiful.

I'm very grateful to him and the whole team at LDI.

Sent from my LLD-L31 using Tapatalk


ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #178 on: 16 June, 2019, 09:02:24 am »
Great news DrM, looking good.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Phil W

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #179 on: 16 June, 2019, 06:02:21 pm »
Great news, the beard suits you.

Last few weeks I've been watching Surgeons: Edge of Life and am frankly astonished at what they are able to do at the cutting edge.

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #180 on: 06 September, 2021, 10:52:11 am »
Just going back through all my old records about this - court case this week. All being done via MS Teams. Can't talk about it now, but definitely have some experiences to share for anyone else who finds themselves in this situation.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #181 on: 06 September, 2021, 11:43:15 am »
Good luck, Dr M, hope you get the outcome you deserve.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Paul

  • L'enfer, c'est les autos.
Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #182 on: 06 September, 2021, 02:53:52 pm »
That’s disappointing, but these things sometimes have to go in front of a judge.

I hope it’s a fair hearing.
What's so funny about peace, love and understanding?

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #183 on: 06 September, 2021, 10:13:36 pm »
I hope all goes as well as these things can and you can talk more freely soon and get best possible outcome. MS Teams is less bad than the court's own video system which is atrocious.

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #184 on: 09 September, 2021, 12:56:21 pm »
The claim failed. These are my immediate impressions.

The judge said it was 80% my fault. The circumstance was that I was travelling with traffic from an ASL towards a cycle lane through a crossroad when the car next to me braked, and apparently flashed the driver attempting to turn, which then hit me at the side of my front wheel as I rode through the junction. The judge said it would be a "counsel of perfection" to expect the driver turning across the path of traffic to take account of the likelihood of unsighted cyclists and motorcyclists emerging (even at the speed I was travelling which was accepted as between 7 and 13mph). I should have perceived the car slowing beside me as a warning to expect danger and adjusted accordingly.

The judge refused my barrister permission to appeal the finding of fault on the grounds that it represented the same counsel of perfection to me when I had the right of way and was in the main flow of traffic on the main road.

My solicitor is waiting to hear from the barrister, but his first impression was that it sounded like a "very harsh decision"

I don't find this unbelievable. I have pretty much entirely given up cycling in favour of running since completing LEL2017. There's no joy in cycling alone for me anymore. The infrastructure and attitudes, both generally and as I see in the judge's finding, convey a sense that the risk in the environment is all on me. That risk resulted in significant consequences for me, and the rewards don't justify exposing myself to them.

I came away with useful experience from the court. I think cyclists could do with a repository of those experiences of court so they can be prepared - my solicitor was good, but there were things I would do differently in preparing, and in the submission.

This was the judge - https://3newsquare.co.uk/barristers/geoffrey-pritchard/
This was my barrister - https://www.orielchambers.co.uk/barrister/deirdre-purcell
This was the defendent's barrister - https://www.12kbw.co.uk/barristers/lois-aldred/

My solicitor was  Aidan at Bikeline - https://www.bikeline.co.uk/content/about-us

arabella

  • عربللا
  • onwendeð wyrda gesceaft weoruld under heofonum
Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #185 on: 09 September, 2021, 01:50:04 pm »
Sympathies. That doesn't make comfortable reading.

I'm wondering whether, had you been a motorist in a lane of motor traffic when the vehicle in the lane (presumably) outside you had slowed down, there would still have been the expectation that because the driver in the inside lane had slowed down then you in your motor car should take this as a warning to expect danger and adjusted accordingly?
And is it really reasonable to think that a car to your outside is slowing down to let somebody through (regardless of anyone being on their inside) as opposed to car to your outside slowing down because it is turning right.  The latter is far more likely.
Is there no requirement that if you are crossing 2 lanes of traffic you need to be sure they are both clear rather than just the lane nearest to you?????

But I'm not sure exactly what the junction looked like so the above mayn't be relevant.
Your experience doesn't exactly recommend the use of cycle lanes to me if I am going to have to assume that anything outside of me slowing down means I should slow down etc..  I may as well stick to the main carriageway.

The judge's comments could just about make sense if you were filtering on the inside rather than having your own lane. 
Any fool can admire a mountain.  It takes real discernment to appreciate the fens.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #186 on: 09 September, 2021, 01:59:18 pm »
I'm appalled and angry on your behalf, DrM, but not entirely surprised. Yet another case of a judge needing to be introduced to the clue bat.

Is there no requirement that if you are crossing 2 lanes of traffic you need to be sure they are both clear rather than just the lane nearest to you?????

Exactly this.

The onus is surely on the turning driver to ensure the way ahead is clear, not just take it on trust that it's clear because another driver has flashed him through? I'm sure that's what I was taught when learning to drive - you don't pull out just because someone else has flashed you.

If you accept what the judge says as true, the driver doing the flashing then becomes culpable for indicating the road was clear when it wasn't - the flashing driver should have been aware of your presence.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #187 on: 09 September, 2021, 02:13:44 pm »
So riding in a straight line in the carriageway and getting hit by someone turning across the lane is 80% your fault.  ::-) So says a specialist in intellectual property law.  :-X
Commiserations on the ruling.

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #188 on: 09 September, 2021, 02:54:41 pm »
...
The judge said it was 80% my fault. The circumstance was that I was travelling with traffic from an ASL towards a cycle lane through a crossroad when the car next to me braked, and apparently flashed the driver attempting to turn, which then hit me at the side of my front wheel as I rode through the junction. The judge said it would be a "counsel of perfection" to expect the driver turning across the path of traffic to take account of the likelihood of unsighted cyclists and motorcyclists emerging (even at the speed I was travelling which was accepted as between 7 and 13mph). I should have perceived the car slowing beside me as a warning to expect danger and adjusted accordingly.

....

Commiserations.

This is one of the reasons I have a detest and hatred of cycle lanes and cycle infrastructure.  It puts the cyclist at risk.   I have been lucky more than once when I was riding past the stationary traffic in the cycle lane and a car pulled through the queue to turn right (as I understand your situation was).  The driver I was passing hit the horn and both I and the turning driver reacted - missing each other by inches.  Had the cycle lane not been there then the cars would have been nearer the kerb and I'd have been overtaking with the motorbikes in complete safety.  I only took the cycle lane as there wasn't enough room in the centre of the road due to the cycle lane >:( >:( >:( >:(

I have also been in court once after a car on the wrong side of the road (passing parked vehicles) hit me head on, and that case was also dismissed as not the driver's fault.

Bottom line is that if we cycle, we have no rights and the magistrates/judges will always side by the motorist.  I swore after that court ruling that I'd not bother reporting any accident again or relying on the justice system.   If the driver damages their vehicle driving into me, hard cheese.

Your case differs from mine in that you had serious injuries and family issues, and long term issues (worst I've had is a damaged bike, and a long standing injury that still pains me when I stupidly used a cycle path), so I really feel sorry for you that this case also collapsed.


The bit I've put in bold is on purpose.   Flashing of headlights is a "warning" and not the accepted norm of being courteous.  So if one driver flashed and the other moved, that's in contradiction to the highway code so how on earth could it be 80% your fault?

I am not telling you what to do, but I'd be appealing.

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #189 on: 09 September, 2021, 02:56:47 pm »
I'm appalled and angry on your behalf, DrM, but not entirely surprised. Yet another case of a judge needing to be introduced to the clue bat.

Is there no requirement that if you are crossing 2 lanes of traffic you need to be sure they are both clear rather than just the lane nearest to you?????

Exactly this.

The onus is surely on the turning driver to ensure the way ahead is clear, not just take it on trust that it's clear because another driver has flashed him through? I'm sure that's what I was taught when learning to drive - you don't pull out just because someone else has flashed you.

If you accept what the judge says as true, the driver doing the flashing then becomes culpable for indicating the road was clear when it wasn't - the flashing driver should have been aware of your presence.

I'm equally appalled, that judge needs to be introduced to Highway code rule 211:

Quote
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/road-users-requiring-extra-care-204-to-225

It is often difficult to see motorcyclists and cyclists, especially when they are coming up from behind, coming out of junctions, at roundabouts, overtaking you or filtering through traffic. Always look out for them before you emerge from a junction; they could be approaching faster than you think. When turning right across a line of slow-moving or stationary traffic, look out for cyclists or motorcyclists on the inside of the traffic you are crossing. Be especially careful when turning, and when changing direction or lane. Be sure to check mirrors and blind spots carefully.


my bold, if it is a council of perfection then it is one given by the highway code and therefore the standard of driving that all road users should aspire to. If a Judge is going to dismiss the guidance of the highway code why has it been written.  ???

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #190 on: 09 September, 2021, 03:21:41 pm »
Hypothetical question:

If a driver is waiting at a junction and then pulls out in front of a car which is indicating left to take that junction, but isn't actually turning as they have left their indicator on, is it the fault of the driver who is incorrectly indicating, or the driver who has pulled out into moving traffic based on a signal from a flashing light?   (I never pull out until the vehicle has started turning, even if that compromises my ability to take the gap and pull out.)




I am extremely angry on DrMekon behalf.    This sucks.

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #191 on: 09 September, 2021, 03:26:11 pm »
Nutty this is again covered in the highway code where you are specifically advised

Rule 170
Take extra care at junctions. You should
...
not assume, when waiting at a junction, that a vehicle coming from the right and signalling left will actually turn. Wait and make sure
...


Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #192 on: 09 September, 2021, 03:53:56 pm »
Would it be worth contacting the CDF (Cyclists' Defence Fund) ?

This is atrocious, and a complete mis-reading of the law and the HC.

Judge is a nincompoop.
Rust never sleeps

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #193 on: 09 September, 2021, 04:29:48 pm »
Would it be worth contacting the CDF (Cyclists' Defence Fund) ?

This is atrocious, and a complete mis-reading of the law and the HC.

Judge is a nincompoop.
That is my thought.

Need precedence where a car has been hit when someone turned across traffic in similar circumstances.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #194 on: 09 September, 2021, 04:44:03 pm »
Hypothetical question:

If a driver is waiting at a junction and then pulls out in front of a car which is indicating left to take that junction, but isn't actually turning as they have left their indicator on, is it the fault of the driver who is incorrectly indicating, or the driver who has pulled out into moving traffic based on a signal from a flashing light?   (I never pull out until the vehicle has started turning, even if that compromises my ability to take the gap and pull out.)

Same principle - signals are never to be taken as definitive, whether it's an indicator light or someone flashing you. You are always responsible for ensuring the way ahead is safe for you to proceed, regardless of any signals made by other road users.

I'm exactly the same as you when turning right out of side roads - wait until it's absolutely clear the approaching driver really is turning before assuming it's safe to pull out.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #195 on: 09 September, 2021, 04:50:30 pm »
As my dad always used to quiz me : -
Q  "What does that indicator flashing mean?"
A  "It means the bulb works."
Rust never sleeps

ian

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #196 on: 09 September, 2021, 05:10:27 pm »
Many, many, many years ago in a land far, far, far away I was in a serious accident that had legal repercussions. The upshot was while everyone was clear that it wasn't technically my fault (I hadn't cycled backwards at 60mph into the front of a slow-moving car, after all), had I done a, b, and c through z, it wouldn't have happened would it?

Sadly, not much has changed. It's still that terrible logic that says yes, he shouldn't have hit you in the face, but then but you were nagging him, love.

This will continue while there's no real concept of a hierarchy of vulnerability and a higher duty of care applies to the top than the bottom and that all parties aren't somehow always equal.

One of the reasons I don't cycle very much on the roads is simply that I know I have no protection from the police or the legal system. If someone knocks me off, either accidentally or on purpose, I have zero faith anything at all will be done and that it somehow be a fate that I invited. It's an atrocious situation.

ETA: it wasn't an accident, of course. How easily we slip into this discourse.

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #197 on: 09 September, 2021, 05:59:08 pm »
to both responders to my hypothetical question, you are correct and hence why I stated that I'd wait.  However in context of how I understand the thread the opposite occurred here in that the OP was going straight ahead, another driver "flashed/indicated" and a turning driver pulled across a moving traffic lane.

If it wasn't a moving lane, or I have misunderstood,  I stand corrected.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #198 on: 09 September, 2021, 06:34:44 pm »
to both responders to my hypothetical question, you are correct and hence why I stated that I'd wait.  However in context of how I understand the thread the opposite occurred here in that the OP was going straight ahead, another driver "flashed/indicated" and a turning driver pulled across a moving traffic lane.

In either case, the principle is that you never take signals made by other road users on trust. You are always responsible for your own actions.

I've had drivers take umbrage with me because they've flashed to give way and I refused to move, because I didn't consider it safe to proceed, or wasn't 100% confident that it was safe. But I'd always rather piss them off than knock a cyclist off his bike who I didn't see.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Knocked off - tell me what I need to do
« Reply #199 on: 09 September, 2021, 07:33:09 pm »
Ah that's shit, DrM. They really are holding you to a higher standard than the driver. Hope you appeal, but I'd understand of not.