How long to bend my legs?

[henshaw11]

My impression is that your glutes work more on a recumbent, not less.  I'm pretty sure I remember people posting as such when I first got a recumbent, too.  Certainly I get sore muscles when riding longer/harder than usual (ooh errr), and I've never had that same pain in the glutes from riding an upright.

oops, a bit late, but - yes - it's about halfway down the buttocks and fairly sharp (I'd rather forgotten having not ridden it for a couple of months)

What I meant was being able to target the glutes in preference to the hamstrings/quads on a DF, but the effort feels more distributed through them, if that makes any sense..

[Jedrik]

I’m beginning to feel a bit despondent about my lack of bent legs! 

I think I can relate to that.
I nearly killed myself riding the first 200 and 300 last year on a full suspended SWB, and both rides were about as flat as possible.
Got myself a Fujin (light version, but with fenders, carrier and a disc brake in front) three days before a somewhat scenic 300 and came in about just in time, legs completely shot. Couldn't even sit in the tub without feeling pain in my glutes. I then fought my way through every one of the next two 400s and the 600. Even though I'm most certainly not the fastest chick on wheels, I had always finished comfortably before. Now I didn't. I felt like a complete failure.  I'd never hurt so much on my road bike, either. Not once. And while I hurt, all that crap you get fed about bents goes through your head, again and again. How comfy they are! (I must be doing something wrong, I am hurting) How fast they are! (I am such a looser, riding one of the fastest bents and fighting to make it in time).

Now at least I know that it isn't just me. Being a relatively small, compact person, I was riding pretty efficient on my road bike. Years of experience had taught me how to put myself into the wind and how to get uphill efficiently, using what little strength I have. Now I can put even less power on the pedals due to the position I am riding in and my ride weighs and flexes more. I hardly ever get to experience the aerodynamic advantage, because I would have to ride somewhat fast to make that count. I does not help I that I can go downhill faster. My reference hill (smooth tarmac, wide curves) gives 65 km/h for the road bike, about the same for the trike, 72 km/h for the Fujin - if you risk it. Allowed are 50 km/h. So mostly I just use up the brake pads.

It just feels like every pedal stroke is taking a lot more effort than the equivalent on a normal bike. 

It does not only feel that way, it is true.
For me it even made a difference to get lighter shoes. 

I’ll keep putting the miles in, hoping my body contorts itself into becoming a recumbent power house, and generally see how things progress.  I suppose it might be the wrong machine for the job (or for me) but I’m not confident I’d fare much better on another type of recumbent.

A fast two wheeler might get you into a range where you are starting to feel you might be up to the task of finishing in time. As for becoming a power house: I did the german arrow on my road bike last year: Climbing never felt so easy. But not on the bent.

[Wendy]

Once acclimatised, I've always been a little bit faster on my recumbents than on my uprights.  The difference in my commuting average speed is most noticeable on my fixed wheel (~3-4km/hour), but even with my geared bike there was some (~2-3km/hr).  Totally relate to the muscle pain and the difficulty of climbing on the 'bent though.

Nowadays I'm getting to the point where I can sometimes puff myself out on the recumbent, before this I'd almost always trash my muscles and have to slow down due to pain.  Muscle pain is still the main limiter though.  I'm not a particularly fast or fit rider, so others may have a quite different experience.

[stevedo]

For me, the lightbulb moment came after riding bent more or less exclusively (Nazca and then a Fujin SL) for about three years. I did a local circuit, which has three minor cols, on the Fujin. It was fine. The next week I did it on my old alu Trek road bike - having hardly ridden a road bike in ages - and was 2kph faster for less effort.

I like recumbents - I still use a trike a lot and love it - but I sold the Fujin pretty soon afterwards. What was the point? It wasn't particularly comfortable (a bumpy road and a fast descent gave a real neck-lashing) and it wasn't fast. I can see that if you live in a flat area it makes good sense, but if there are hills you're instantly at a disadvantage.

I know recumbent riders bang on about how much faster they are on descents (though try persuading Cancellara about that) but the truth is that descents don't matter much. Climbs are what matter, because that's where the time is lost. It seems to me recumbents are playing catch-up all the time when the road goes uphill.

That said, they're great, aren't they?

[nashd]

Thanks, everyone.  That’s very helpful – and a lot to think about!  I’m going through a lot of what Jedrik and Stevedo describe, even down to the excruciatingly painful glutes in the bath syndrome! 

My previous rides have all been done on a track bike, and that’s faster up hills and slower down the steeper ones, but it generally seems to be a lot more efficient.  I think the recumbent has potential, and on the two group rides I’ve done people have mentioned that I’m fast going up the hills.  However, I know if I was on the fixie I’d be much faster, and I’d be ‘dancing’ up the less severe climbs.  In fact, the recumbent makes hills and headwinds appear where none previously existed.

I haven’t ridden a whole lot of audaxes in the past, but apart from a couple where I had mechanical problems and slept too long, I’ve never had to worry about being out of time.  Even on the trike I still had almost 1.5 hours in hand at the end of the 200k, but everybody else (including three 2-wheeled recumbents) finished well ahead of me (the fastest were 3.5 hours ahead).   On a 400k or 600k it means I’m likely to be spending a lot of extra time out on the road.

I’m also seeing what seems to be a reduced heart rate for greater effort.  On a normal bike I can get into the 80-90% of maximum heart rate range without too much effort.  On the trike, getting into the low 80% range feels like I’m doing some sort of time trial.

I’ll try and stick with it for now, and see how things progress.  The main reason I wanted a recumbent was to stop the numb fingers I was suffering from, and that problem has gone away. Now, I just have numb feet, a bruised backside, double vision, and a tremulous voice…

[Kim]

Jedrik's post especially adds weight (pun semi-intended) to my suspicion that the advantages of recumbents are suited to certain types of riders more than others.

I'm too asthmatic to honk.  I have to deliberately limit my climbing rate to avoid over-stressing my lungs, which means sitting and twiddling.  As such, the only real disadvantage to a 'bent while climbing for me is that it's slightly heavier and a bit trickier to get going again if I stop.  I'm not exactly lightweight myself, so the proportional difference in weight isn't that significant.

As my pulmonary performance is massively more limiting than anything muscular, I don't see an obvious difference in power output - it aches for a bit if I've only ridden the other kind of bike for ages, but that soon goes away.

I tend to suffer from hand numbness after a couple of hours on an upright, which means I favour a relatively upright riding position to keep the weight off my wrists.  Which makes the aerodynamic advantage of even a relatively non-aero 'bent quite significant.  Having had a brief go on Charlotte's Baron, and discovering that I could make it go like stink in spite of what I'll euphemistically refer to as 'distinctly suboptimal biomechanics', there are obviously more aero gains to be made.  I expect I'd be similarly faster in the drops on a proper road bike, but I wouldn't want or be able to sustain that position for very long.

Related to this, I tend to have slightly more weight on the saddle than is optimal, and a recumbent seat is the difference between comfort and eventual misery.


So for me it all adds up to: "No worse, and significantly more comfortable (and fun)".  I can see how that changes if you're lighter, actually fast or particularly good at climbing on a DF.

[Tigerbiten]

For me, my recumbent trike is all or nothing.

After my accident I tried riding an upwrong.
But I dont get enough stability/support from the artifical arm to get out of the saddle.
Plus there was no way I could work out how to use both brakes with one hand.
Also all the joints in my right arm are slowly breaking down.

Getting the Trice Q changed all that.
Being a recumbent, you don't get out of the saddle so that problems solved.
I can slam on both front disks from a single lever with no risk of falling off if a front wheel skids.
Having USS there is no weight/strain on my arm.

My major problem on the recumbent is heat loss.
If I can keep around about a +8 mph wind over the trike, then the airflow over me lets me loose enough heat to stop me overheating at max power output.
Once I loose this this airflow, I cook.
At which point I must reduce my power output to match my rate of cooling.
So a lot of the time I'm breathing hard uphill isn't because I running out of breath.
Its because I panting to keep cool.

Luck .........

[Wendy]

I must admit I'm quite amazed at how many people are reporting they are slower on something like a Fujin!  I guess if the rides are super hilly, or you ride at relatively low speeds then there is more lost in the drive train and lower metabolic power than is gained by aerodynamics?

Look at these two young and fast roadies chasing Mark on a Baron, which is similar to a Fujin.  Mark is over 45 years old at the time of this clip:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZfF69QyM9UQ&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/ZfF69QyM9UQ&rel=1</a>

I'm nowhere near as fast as he is, pretty slow actually, but look at these two vids for a good example of when the aero advantage really starts to show - basically I have to pass 25mph before there's a strong effect.  Both the upright cyclists in these videos are much fitter and stronger cyclists than I am:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/RIgg0NGGjKk&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/RIgg0NGGjKk&rel=1</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/f4agfZMkqlY&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/f4agfZMkqlY&rel=1</a>

[stevedo]

I must admit I'm quite amazed at how many people are reporting they are slower on something like a Fujin!  I guess if the rides are super hilly, or you ride at relatively low speeds then there is more lost in the drive train and lower metabolic power than is gained by aerodynamics?

That'll be it, then - I mainly rode the Fujin at sub-25 mph speeds, due to rough roads, hills and me being generally crap. One thing it was brilliant for was when the tramontane wind was blowing (though the ICE is still pretty good at that, of course).

[Wendy]

Oh don't you worry, I don't spend much time at 25mph either, LOL!  I'm crap enough that my full year average speed is just 15mph, almost purely commuting.

My point was really that there is a small aerodynamic improvement over a road bike at 15mph, but you probably only get a strong and immediately noticeable effect at 25mph and above.

[Wendy]

A recumbent isn't going to help much when you're looking at a rider like this one, with some fairly impressive speed:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/qT7xTsHIaHQ&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/qT7xTsHIaHQ&rel=1</a>

He's probably making several hundred watts more than I can, and the extra 80-100w of efficiency from my bike isn't going to help a great deal.  LOL!

[EdinburghFixed]

@nashd - I borrowed a QNT to ride the Border Raid 600 last year and finished with 20 minutes to spare (one bank receipt from around the 450km mark was just two minutes inside time!) - it was really agonising in parts.

For my part, I'm not sure it's ever very competitive to ride a recumbent speed-wise. The problem is that what you gain from being aerodynamic is more than offset by what you lose in power output.

To add to this, on any ride like an audax, you are not comparing recumbent and upright but recumbent and upright paceline - on many locals, a paceline being pulled by a tandem at that! I often think that riding the Raptobike is a bit like having an invisibile draft - so when everybody else does have a physical draft, you're only level pegging.

I find it interesting that you also describe the problem I have on the Rapto - my heart rate just doesn't get that high, indicating that I'm not putting out anything like the same power. For example, a random archive GPX trace from my old commute put me at 166bpm for 63 minutes - in the short term I can sustain much more - an *average* of 172bpm riding the MTB to the station over ten minutes.

On the Raptobike this morning I rode a similar route to the old commute and my heart rate was averaging out at about 155bpm. That's an extra 11% blood flow on the upright bike... and it's right where it hurts, like digging in for a short but vicious climb for a mile.

You can see the difference at higher speeds though. On our local club 10 mile TT, I can go about as fast on the Raptobike (riding 4 miles through traffic to work and back) as I used to on the road bike with aero clip-ons (riding 17 miles each way through countryside, and 6 mile / 20 minute sprints across the hills & Forth Bridge to get the train at Dalmeny...).

The aero benefit is so big that it has made my years-ago awesome form PB achievable without any training. And that's on a rough course which isn't flat, too (not that I am that fast anyway - on the Kirkliston course I can manage a long 24).

[Kim]

To add to this, on any ride like an audax, you are not comparing recumbent and upright but recumbent and upright paceline - on many locals, a paceline being pulled by a tandem at that! I often think that riding the Raptobike is a bit like having an invisibile draft - so when everybody else does have a physical draft, you're only level pegging.

There's a definite logic to highracers for that reason.

Having done some experiments, I can certainly get a useful draft from upright riders on the SMGT (admittedly not built for speed, but a similar aero profile with no luggage and the seat fully reclined), to the point where I can easily keep up with real cyclists on road bikes, and they can get a semi-useful draft from me.  Whereas there's no obvious aero gain from hanging around with low recumbents in any formation.

[ruggtomcat]

I really want to inprove my strength and hill climbing for the bent, I have heavy luggage and hills ahead and i hate getting off. However I also really want to protect my knees, They are not that weak but I know from experience that my guns are stronger.

As for drafting, I need some lowracer friends but im not really in it for racing, more distance and comfort and fun. I really like going round corners with my arse right on the road.... feels as close as I will get to a Ferrari

[nashd]

@EdinburghFixed - You rode with me at the start of the Nippy Sweetie – thanks for the chat and the company!  Subsequent to my first roadside stop I was pretty much on my own all day until the last few miles.  After St David’s the pain really set in!

The aerodynamic advantage seems to be less than I’d been led to believe, especially when set against the extra rolling resistance, additional weight, and (possibly) less powerful riding position.  On a 20mile loop which I rode this morning (not aiming for a fast time) I’m around 4mph slower than I would be on my fixie.  I lose a fair bit of time on one longish hill (5-8mph on the trike, 8-12mph on the bike), and it takes me longer to reach the hill.  Despite riding the last five miles at 25mph+ I didn’t make up much time.  I think what’s hard is that my legs don’t get a break – it’s just relentless.  Even on a short ride like that, and when I wasn’t riding flat out, there were a couple of times when I felt like rolling off the trike and falling asleep in the ditch – riding it takes a lot out of me.

The other thing I’m beginning to notice is that it doesn’t carry speed gained on a descent up a following hill particularly well.  On my fixie if I hammer down the final part of a (suitable) hill I can gain enough momentum to get up the other side without really putting in any effort.  I just can’t power the trike up the climb, and usually have to resort to changing down a few gears which really kills the speed.

I’d been planning on entering Reiver Fever 300k and Nae Bother to Us 400k, but I’ve ridden the latter twice on my fixie (86” gear) and it’s not a particularly easy ride, so I don’t think I’ll be up to it on the Windcheetah.  However, maybe things will feel different a few weeks from now!  In addition to some ‘speed’ work I think I need to try and fit in some 100k steady rides, and a DIY 200k before deciding. Perhaps I’ll have to give up audaxing and try something else – maybe slow and relaxed touring on an SMGT…

 

[tonycollinet]

When I was buying the trike, Kevin made it clear it'd never be as fast as a bike. This is not a major problem to me, as I never ride competitively, and group rides are only ever social (and normally with people who are slower in any case).

I think a trike is simply more suited to leisure rides - preferably without clock watching.

I am hoping it will become less like hard work though somewhere between now and the first 1 or 2k miles. I've now done around 430 and it has become easier - more importantly, the pain has stopped. And I am going further before numb feet syndrome starts.

So all in all I'm heading in the right direction.

And it IS the most fun you can have....er....lying down. 

[Wothill]

Lots of very interesting comments and experiences - amazing to me what a range of experiences there are comparing bents to DFs. It's certainly true that aero advantages only really become significant at higher speeds (I think the M5 website has some figures on it) but the slow speeds and pain suffered by nashd and jedrik (and some others) go beyond what others, including me, have experienced, and it may well be as Kim said that individual differences have a big part in it. That said, nashd, I reckon that the extra weight, and wind drag of a trike compared to a bike are also relevant factors in your case, particularly in view of your comparisons with your speed on the fixie.

I have probably always overestimated the importance of weight but it's definitely a factor. I get the impression that most bent riders agree though that they remain slower uphill than they were on a DF even once they have adapted. I would agree with the figures quoted above - something like 12mph becomes 8 on a bent. That's a big power reduction (far more than about 3 kg extra bike weight could explain in my my case). So perhaps some people take longer to adapt to the difference in muscle loading that implies than others.

[Von Broad]

hummm....always an interesting topic.

After riding 2007 qualifiers and PBP on my homebuilt recumbent, and then taking oit down to Spain in 2008 [best experience ever on a bicycle], I had a yearning to ride the DF again [bog standard 1970's steel frame]. I have no base fitness with cycling [don't commute], so I just get on and ride whenever the mood takes me. I have to say it was a joy to get out of the saddle on the DF again when climbing. Just nice to have that change.

But one thing I've learn about the comparison as far as I'm concerned is this: I'm pretty much the same on both. I did the Kennet Valley 200 in 11 1/2 hours on Saturday on the DF and did it on 11 1/2 hrs 4 years ago on the recumbent. Mind you I wasn't expecting much else really, i'm just not that fast a cyclist. And now I'm getting a hankering to get back on the recumbent again.

But it was interesting to see how much faster Rich Forrest has got over the years on his Bacchetta. He left me for dust pretty much throughout the whole day on his high racer - especially the last 50km, the most 'scenic' part of the ride. You could see how much faster he'd got after all the miles he's put into his riding over the past few years. That's the pay back.

If you want to get faster on a recumbent there's more to it than frame material and aerodynamics [important as they are] - it's the same as any other bike, you've got to get out there, break sweat and push yourself.

[Wendy]

If you want to get faster on a recumbent there's more to it than frame material and aerodynamics [important as they are] - it's the same as any other bike, you've got to get out there, break sweat and push yourself.

Ding ding!  QFT.

When I'm feeling strong and want a play, there's no chance I can sit at 30mph on an ordinary road bike for several miles, it's only on the Fujin that I can do that.  Alright, I'm totally knackered after that, but it's that top end speed that is so addictive and exhilarating on a low racer.

[EdinburghFixed]

Plus, you have to keep it up. The fastest I've been on my Raptobike was immediately after I got it - while I was putting in big miles on the commute and transferring off the back of a year and a half of 175+ mile weeks on the fixie.

Although 3.5k miles down the line now, I'm not as fast on the Raptobike as I was 18 months ago. I remember coming in at the front on a few brevets in 2009 - now I'm firmly in the middle of the pack.

I've started taking a detour to work to build my miles now it's getting lighter. Due to our cunning and devious locale, I rode this 27 mile loop in rush hour yesterday and was only passed by 19 cars. What a win.

[cycleman]

i can ave 7.5mph - 8mph on my trike and 9mph on the thorn . the trike's are ideal for touring and are treated better by traffic than the thorn . when i was able to ride upright cycles i found little different's on the flat but a couple of mph slower uphill and 40mph plus downhill. this was using a early peter ross trice which i had stiffened by having the rear end triangulated 

[Jedrik]

I must admit I'm quite amazed at how many people are reporting they are slower on something like a Fujin!  I guess if the rides are super hilly, or you ride at relatively low speeds then there is more lost in the drive train and lower metabolic power than is gained by aerodynamics?

I would certainly vote this as most probable cause.
And yes, I do know that there are people around who can make bents go faster than I could dream of. In fact, unless they dug in really deep or tried it themselves, the one thing about recumbents people know is: "These things are fast!" And then I sit on them and they are not. Now it is your guess if this makes me happy or can help me in any way.   

Lots of very interesting comments and experiences - amazing to me what a range of experiences there are comparing bents to DFs. It's certainly true that aero advantages only really become significant at higher speeds (I think the M5 website has some figures on it) but the slow speeds and pain suffered by nashd and jedrik (and some others) go beyond what others, including me, have experienced, and it may well be as Kim said that individual differences have a big part in it.

I suppose where nashd and me "differ" is, that we both had been doing long distance riding on upright cycles, were led to believe that the adaption bit would be done after about 1000 km and again went onto long distance rides with our bents. I didn't hurt on my bent when I did something like 100 kms. I needed a windy 200 and then a windy 300 on the SWB to make my glutes hurt.

It was about 320 into a 400 undulating kilometers, when I sat on that bike, sinking into desperation because I realized I could not just get off to push it uphill, as the muscles, that had just given out trying to get me uphill, were exactly the same ones that could not get me out of the seat just now. That had never ever happened to me before.

I just sat crying on that thing after 450 km realizing that the one flat part of that 600 I had been looking forward to was going straight into a headwind and would not give me the respite I had hoped for before the route got hilly again.Even in the flats with a headwind I felt I might have been better of on my audax bike with tri bars. Except for the fact that my shoulder would hurt (accident damage) and my fingers would go numb.

In my opinion getting faster on a bent is not about "adaption", it is about more training, more strength. Why else would I get faster on the audax bike, too?

[Wendy]

I wasn't getting at you guys or doubting your experiences at all, sorry!  It's nothing more than slight amazement that you've found a Fujin to be so much slower.  I'm sure you're a much stronger, faster, and fitter rider than I am too, certainly more of a hardcore cyclist anyway.

I'm not sure that everyone thinks all recumbents are fast, there are many types that are far from fast.  I imagine that most recumbent riders would think that a Fujin is at the somewhat fast end of the scale though.

[nashd]

Glad to hear you’re making progress, Tony. 

I knew a trike would be slower than a 2-wheeler, but I just fancied one.  I tried a few, and the Windcheetah felt like it had the most potential for going fairly quickly.  It has been a struggle, though.  Even though I was expecting to find it tough at first, and tried to ride gently, I wasn’t really prepared for all the pain.  I even had bother standing after the first few rides!  The other thing I found (and sometimes still do) is that it might take a day or two to recover from a ride, which reduces the amount of ‘training’ I can do on it.

I sorted the initial problems by repositioning the seat, and buying some memory foam.  I’ve bought some new cleats for my race shoes, and I’m going to try a slightly different position.

I read a couple of articles today, and one guy seemed to be suffering similar pain to Jedrik and myself.  He seemed to think seat to bottom bracket height might have some bearing on things – there’s not much I can do about that, and anyway the Windcheetah isn’t too extreme in that respect.  The ‘tweak’ which seemed to sort his problem was fitting shorter cranks.  I know that’s a popular change for recumbent cyclists to make, but it’s the first time I’ve heard someone describe standard length cranks causing a constant lactic acid build up in the legs at all speeds. The shorter cranks cured that problem for him, and another effect was that he was then able to increase his heart rate.

I’m going to persevere with the trike.  I’ve got a good level of fitness, and it might not take too much for me to see an improvement, if I continue to ride it regularly.  If I’m still struggling in a few weeks then I might try messing around with crank lengths.

[mattc]

Forgive me butting in here - I'm just really interested in the physics of cycling, and bents are a fascinating aspect of that ...

To add to this, on any ride like an audax, you are not comparing recumbent and upright but recumbent and upright paceline - on many locals, a paceline being pulled by a tandem at that! I often think that riding the Raptobike is a bit like having an invisibile draft - so when everybody else does have a physical draft, you're only level pegging.

There's a definite logic to highracers for that reason.

Having done some experiments, I can certainly get a useful draft from upright riders on the SMGT (admittedly not built for speed, but a similar aero profile with no luggage and the seat fully reclined), to the point where I can easily keep up with real cyclists on road bikes, and they can get a semi-useful draft from me.  Whereas there's no obvious aero gain from hanging around with low recumbents in any formation.

What I would add to that, is that I'm surprised people don't notice benefits under 25mph. On uprights I notice a tow over, say, 15mph. By 20mph I can hang onto much stronger riders. Add a headwind to this ...

... many locals, a paceline being pulled by a tandem at that!
Can I jsut say that this is hardly the norm on most audaxes for most riders! I've hardly ever ridden with tandems, and organised pacelines of any kind are unusual (certainly in the back half of the field).

But yes, I have drafted bents - I reckon when their riders are really pootling, they're at the right speed for me to get a good draft (but it takes effort to hang on). So not useful very often, but it has happened.