Validation outside time limits wasRe: The Dean

[citoyen]

The results sheet only shows the bare facts. Epic failures sometimes make for better stories that can be recorded for posterity in other forms.

For example, the time Mr Larrington failed to finish PBP because he was too busy taking up a position in local government.

[mattc]

If I was making the rules, I'd be in favour of allowing some extra time for finishers in those conditions. But not just because it was cold/windy.

Then exactly why? If it hadn't

Why partially quote me? It's not like my post was all that long 

[mattc]

<blah blah ...>
 For events like PBP and LEL other considerations may apply, but everybody who started the Dean had a very clear idea of what they were getting into.

Why are they different?

[mattc]

The results sheet only shows the bare facts. Epic failures sometimes make for better stories that can be recorded for posterity in other forms.

For example, the time Mr Larrington failed to finish PBP because he was too busy taking up a position in local government.

Totally agree 

[Manotea]

If I was making the rules, I'd be in favour of allowing some extra time for finishers in those conditions. But not just because it was cold/windy.

Then exactly why? If it hadn't

Why partially quote me? It's not like my post was all that long 

Because thats the point I was responding to?

I wasn't going to get into closed roads...

[mattc]

If I was making the rules, I'd be in favour of allowing some extra time for finishers in those conditions. But not just because it was cold/windy.

Then exactly why? If it hadn't

Why partially quote me? It's not like my post was all that long 

Because thats the point I was responding to?

I wasn't going to get into closed roads...

So you're asking:
"Why aren't you asking for extra time on cold/windy rides?"
Is that right?

Well, I'm not. I've never heard of this happening, and I'm not asking for it. (Nor have I stopped beating my wife ) Or have I misunderstood your question?

(I don't think those 2 sentences make much sense taken in isolation like that. So it seems odd for you to respond to them.)

[Whitedown Man]

Pretty much everyone who’s completed an RRtY or two in the UK has had to ride through snow and ice, walk up ascents or down descents because of those conditions, etc. That’s why RRtY is hard, and that’s why serial RRtYers take pride in their achievement. Start giving free passes for extreme weather and we’ll have to find a new name that isn’t based on the “audacious” root.

[mattc]

I think crediting riders for making it to the finish safely but out-of-time despite difficult (unplanned) obstacles
is very different to crediting riders who didn't make it back, or who wisely stayed in bed..

Also, I'm only commenting on one specific calendar event - RRTY is a sideshow.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Audax is a pass/ fail test for riders regarding the conditions on that route on that day. Finish out of time and earn a well-deserved "Hard luck but good show, old chap!" but that isn't the same as finishing within time.

[Manotea]

I agree with all the previous speakers

If I ruled the world... not only would every day be the first day of spring (just like on the Dean, obvs!) but I'd include Starters and "Out of Hours" finishers in the officially recorded event results, because as is, if you don't complete within the allotted time you officially 'don't exist', which I think is a shame whereas recording Starters and OOH Finishers would at least provide some 'I was there' recognition for posterity.

[mattc]

Audax is a pass/ fail test for riders regarding the conditions on that route on that day. Finish out of time and earn a well-deserved "Hard luck but good show, old chap!" but that isn't the same as finishing within time.

... except for PBP*. A precedent exists. Each situation can be judged on its merits.

*ask Damon Peacock.

[mattc]

I agree with all the previous speakers

If I ruled the world... not only would every day be the first day of spring (just like on the Dean, obvs!) but I'd include Starters and "Out of Hours" finishers in the officially recorded event results, because as is, if you don't complete within the allotted time you officially 'don't exist', which I think is a shame whereas recording Starters and OOH Finishers would at least provide some 'I was there' recognition for posterity.

+1

(apart from the bit about agreeing with everyone, of course)

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I can recite a whole heap of PBP oddities but receiving extra time for law/ medical interactions during a brevet is in their rules. PBP99 had a couple of extra hours allowance because of a long roadworks diversion that started during the event! Snowfall doesn't count towards overall finishing time, except for gaining some respect.

[mattc]

Can you show me a PBP where heavy snowfall delayed riders, but no allowance was made by ACP?

Can you? Hmm??

[LittleWheelsandBig]

PBP07 didn't give extra time at the finish, despite quite a bit of rain.

[Somnolent]

Audax is a pass/ fail test for riders regarding the conditions on that route on that day. Finish out of time and earn a well-deserved "Hard luck but good show, old chap!" but that isn't the same as finishing within time.

... except for PBP*. A precedent exists. Each situation can be judged on its merits.

*ask Damon Peacock.

I can recite a whole heap of PBP oddities....

Which rather invalidates the idea of PBP being useful as precedent.

For once, I agree with Manotea:

.... include Starters and "Out of Hours" finishers in the officially recorded event results, because as is, if you don't complete within the allotted time you officially 'don't exist', which I think is a shame whereas recording Starters and OOH Finishers would at least provide some 'I was there' recognition for posterity.

I've previously mooted a "DNV" (Did not validate) which could cover a multitude of cases from being hors délai, through riding an EAPC, to those who CBA to answer all the infos.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Audax is a pass/ fail test for riders regarding the conditions on that route on that day. Finish out of time and earn a well-deserved "Hard luck but good show, old chap!" but that isn't the same as finishing within time.

... except for PBP*. A precedent exists. Each situation can be judged on its merits.

*ask Damon Peacock.

I can recite a whole heap of PBP oddities....

Which rather invalidates the idea of PBP being useful as precedent.

Except if you know what the oddities were and why they were granted.

The discussion was about whether Damon's time extension was outside of the rules. The time extension was explicitly within the rules but it wasn't for weather.

[mattc]

So basically the history of Audax is one of all sorts of pragmatic alterations to a (very simple) set of rules, mostly according to the specific circumstances, and the opinions of those in charge at the time. (see also: 60 day Januarys ) No news there!

That is pretty much how most sport is run, and rightly so. In this PARTICULAR situation, I'd be in favour of considering a rider's appeal for leniency. I'm sure others have the opposite view - no one that has expressed an opinion (so far*) is actually in a position to make this decision, so it's all moot.

(There are very few sports that do not have an appeal process.)

*I think? Happy to be corrected!

[The Seldom Killer]

Pretty much everyone who’s completed an RRtY or two in the UK has had to ride through snow and ice, walk up ascents or down descents because of those conditions, etc. That’s why RRtY is hard, and that’s why serial RRtYers take pride in their achievement. Start giving free passes for extreme weather and we’ll have to find a new name that isn’t based on the “audacious” root.

I've done three RRtYs and never had to ride through snow or walk up a hill due to lack of traction on them. But maybe I chose the only 36 months where that wasn't necessary.

Interestingly, it seems most of the commenters here saying the out of hours finishers don't deserve any consideration are veteran audaxers. Meanwhile, while some of them opted for comfort over challenge, one of those seeking that consideration was a fir st time 300k rider. Perhaps the message needs to be to stick to the nice easy stuff, audacious riding isn't to be rewarded.

[Exit Stage Left]

Oddly enough, in 2003 I wasn't too concerned with finishing PBP for myself. Heather had failed in 1999, and It took the shine off my own finish. When I got knocked off by a scooter at about 900km in 2003, Heather was slightly ahead.

I was only very bruised, and recorded a video message on a camera to send to Heather via the organisation. I then spent three hours sorting out the paperwork, and the two buckled wheels.

I would probably have made the time up, but for an off-route detour. After that, one of the volunteers carried my luggage to help me get a finish, for Heather's benefit mainly. I finished two hours late, but with a note of the three hours delay in my Brevet card. I got 90 hours, rather than 89 hours.

So, I had consulted with the organisation with 300km left to ride, and they were aware of my progress during those 300km. There wasn't a retrospective adjustment. Similarly, the extension to LEL 2009 was decided on at Alston on the return. It's very difficult to implement changes once the event is over, as those who were out of time at intermediate controls, and stopped, are at a disadvantage.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

No SK, the message is "Bravo on finishing but you weren't within the time limit" Most veteran Audaxers have finished out of time or DNFed despite heroic efforts but realise that sometimes 'shit happens'.

[The Seldom Killer]

Are the those efforts "heroic" though? It doesn't seem like it. The very label suggests tackling a task that most of their peers wouldn't or couldn't. Something meritorious and deserving of recognition.

That "bravo" of yours isn't really recognition. Its just a sop to thinking rules are more important than the efforts they're supposed to govern. For a pursuit like audaxing, I'm not convinced thats a good thing. Perhaps that "heroic" label isn't worth anything either.

[j_a_m_e_s_]

But rules is rules?

When would it stop? I got to 252km before the weather was too much for me. Can I be validated?


The way I see it is that half hour late is hard to swallow, I'm sure, but you got there. I didn't. Plenty more didn't even take a single pedal stroke.
I was gutted I packed, possibly more gutted than I would have been coming in at 0201.

You rode 307km in pretty brutal conditions. Knowing that is the only recognition that matters really.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

There is such a thing as a moral victory. Finishing hors delai (particularly in the context of terrible conditions or setbacks) is a moral victory, but not an official one.

[The Seldom Killer]

But rules is rules?

When would it stop? I got to 252km before the weather was too much for me. Can I be validated?

I accept that its not easy to decide when to go beyond the rules. After all, I was the one making the decision five years ago when I organised a 300k that ran through the snow and a rider finished out of the time limit. These things need to be considered on their own circumstances. However, the guideline for me was to consider comparable effort. I can say from a reasonable degree of experience that the riding on this day was comparable to the effort of riding a typical 400k such as the Severn Across.

And WB, the moral victory you're awarding does feel as empty as the bravo. I don't have an issue with you not wanting to recognise the ride as meritorious but this stuff is a bit patronising. If you think the rules are generous enough as they are, regardless of circumstances, fair enough, but don't do that.