Author Topic: Are bar-end shifters acceptable for pre-87 and how are the cables run if so?  (Read 4324 times)

I am building my Moser as a pseudo pre-87 machine (it's a budget 51.151 in Matrix tubing which means it is post-85 but Matrix went out of production about 1987 so I reckon it should be OK for our local ride). It was going to have Campag mechs and downtube shifters but I have discovered that the rear mech is out of line so it will now have an early Shimano 600. I don't have Shimano dt levers but I do have a pair of Shimano non-indexed bar-ends that must be about the right vintage.

So the question is are bar-ends accepted under Eroica style rules? If so how are the cables run bearing in mind that under bar tape is supposed to be not allowed? Can I just copy 1970's style cyclo-cross routing? Anyone know of a good photo of a roadman using them in the 60's or 70's? All I know is crossmen.

Of course it may be irrelevant if I can find suitable dt levers in a bike jumble but there are only two of those per year in striking distance so I am not holding my breath. The project is not particularly serious, it's just something to do with a frame that otherwise I don't have any real use for.

According to the Eroica website, only pre-1980 non-indexed bar-end shifters are allowed.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Walter Godefoot was a top Belgian sprinter in the Merckx era and he often raced with bar end shifters. The 'cables under bar tape' ban only relates to brake levers, not bar end shifters.
https://www.le-livre.fr/journaux-revues/fiche-ro30214518.html
https://www.nokerekoerse.be/nl/vorige-edities/erelijst-elite/1967-walter-godefroot-op-zijn-sterkst
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

According to the Eroica website, only pre-1980 non-indexed bar-end shifters are allowed.

Yes I have been looking at the Eroica site. Limousin ancient vehicles aren't as serious and strict as that; I think my pre-87 vintage Shimanos would not be questioned too seriously (and the chance of finding pre-1980 bar-ends in this region is pretty small; mine are the only ones that I know, although there must be some ancient cyclo-cross ones lurking somewhere, this being cyclo-cross territory). So how do I run the cables, as I would do usually (I don't put them all the way under bar tape any way)?

Walter Godefoot was a top Belgian sprinter in the Merckx era and he often raced with bar end shifters.
https://www.le-livre.fr/journaux-revues/fiche-ro30214518.html


Walter Godefroot

BE's were used by a few road riders and rather more CX riders, BITD.  It wasn't uncommon for riders with them to be messed with; it is the easiest thing in the world to flick someone else's BE lever as you ride past.... I guess no-one messed with Walter though, he was a bit of a hard case.... ;)

Routing BITD was usually to run the outer cable along the horizontal part of the drops under the bar tape and then to loop directly into a band-on cable stop where the DT levers usually go.  [Although I note that in the photo above, the gear cables run all the way to the stem, which usually resulted in a mushy shift with the then available linerless housing]. Band on levers were more the thing than braze-on bosses back then, and 'Ergo bosses' hadn't really been invented, but some folk improvised by screwing a  barrel adjuster/ M5 threaded mounting (eg from a weinmann brake) directly into a braze-on lever boss.

Sometimes the drops were shortened slightly to accommodate the BE shifters. Used Campag BE shifters (of which there are several slightly different types) used to be readily available for reasonable money but these days prices are a bit mental.

If you take the levers off the BE bosses you have, you may find a way of fitting a set of braze-on type levers and making something that looks more 'period correct'.

cheers

Phil W

I run my bar end outer under the horizontal part of the bar tape. It works well and means the cables are not in the way when holding drops.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
I run my bar end cables under the tape until just below the brake levers. The exposed cables aren't in the way, no matter where I grip the bars or levers.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

BTW dia compe friction BEs like these;



are still made

cheers

Walter Godefoot was a top Belgian sprinter in the Merckx era and he often raced with bar end shifters.
https://www.le-livre.fr/journaux-revues/fiche-ro30214518.html


Walter Godefroot

BE's were used by a few road riders and rather more CX riders, BITD.  It wasn't uncommon for riders with them to be messed with; it is the easiest thing in the world to flick someone else's BE lever as you ride past.... I guess no-one messed with Walter though, he was a bit of a hard case.... ;)

Routing BITD was usually to run the outer cable along the horizontal part of the drops under the bar tape and then to loop directly into a band-on cable stop where the DT levers usually go.  [Although I note that in the photo above, the gear cables run all the way to the stem, which usually resulted in a mushy shift with the then available linerless housing]. Band on levers were more the thing than braze-on bosses back then, and 'Ergo bosses' hadn't really been invented, but some folk improvised by screwing a  barrel adjuster/ M5 threaded mounting (eg from a weinmann brake) directly into a braze-on lever boss.

Sometimes the drops were shortened slightly to accommodate the BE shifters. Used Campag BE shifters (of which there are several slightly different types) used to be readily available for reasonable money but these days prices are a bit mental.

If you take the levers off the BE bosses you have, you may find a way of fitting a set of braze-on type levers and making something that looks more 'period correct'.

cheers

Most of the cross riders and photos that I have seen have the cables exiting on the lower part of the bar so I have always had mine like that. Looking at the photos of WG I can see how a roadman would find that all under the tape routing much neater. He was finishing his career when I did tts as a spotty teenager!

Since I have the Shimano be shifters and a working 600 series mech and the Campag mech is apparently bent (I did think of the hanger but the Shimano mech runs fine so the Campag mech is suspect, although I had used it on the Gitane and don't remember any problems) I don't think I will try to bodge something. If I had a working Campag mech I would use the dt shifters!


the most common routing


another variant

As a spotty irk in about 1978 I lost an argument with one of my contemporaries; he reckoned the only way to do the cable routing  was as per the Witcomb above and I couldn't remember which of our cycling heroes used to do it different to that. Godefroot.... should have known..... ::-)

cheers

Re: Are bar-end shifters acceptable for pre-87 and how are the cables run if so?
« Reply #10 on: 03 September, 2018, 07:26:39 am »
Mathieu Hermans (an ex crosser) won a few Vuelta stages using bar-end shifters.

Re: Are bar-end shifters acceptable for pre-87 and how are the cables run if so?
« Reply #11 on: 03 September, 2018, 07:39:37 am »
I used bar end levers extensively from about 1969 to 1985.  Mostly I used Campag until Suntour appeared probably about 1980.  Suntour were much nicer to use.  Shimano made bar ends as long ago as the early 70s.  Cable routing - I ran the cable only under the horizontal part of the drops, the first 6 inches, or all the way to the centre of the tops like modern Ergo lever cables.  Just under the first 6 inches probably gave the best results.  I never had the cables leaving almost vertically by the lever hoods, and I never saw anybody who did  so.   You can see in the picture that the bike is a Schwinn and we know that in the 70s Americans had some very strange ideas as they rediscovered cycling.

Re: Are bar-end shifters acceptable for pre-87 and how are the cables run if so?
« Reply #12 on: 03 September, 2018, 09:01:10 am »
BTW the Dia Compe BEs above have a similar mechanism within them as found in the old Sun Tour 'powershift' levers.


bar end version

Band-on versions were available to fit quill stems (usually with a weird bracket) or down tubes


band-on

as well as braze-on versions of course.

Reputedly the powershift lever design dates back at least to 1975 (although Ron Kitching may not have imported every new Sun Tour model right away); since sun tour stuff is date coded it ought to be possible to make an accurate determination. The powershift design is normally reliable but I have seen the pawl break in one or two cases.

This is from 1985;


I note that even then, the BE version cost over twice as much as the band-on version. I also note that unlike many other BE shifters, the left and right hand SunTour ones are identical, rather than mirror images of one another. This can be seen both in the catalogue illustration and the photo above.

 Pre-indexing (of course) one of my chums used to count clicks on  downshifts; IIRC when powershift levers were  mated to a VX rear mech,  he needed four clicks per sprocket on his 5s block.  I was using 'new winner' compact spaced freewheels and sedisport chains at the time; the shifting was 'not very good' with this setup and IIRC I got on best with some levers that had a built-in overshift to them.

cheers

Re: Are bar-end shifters acceptable for pre-87 and how are the cables run if so?
« Reply #13 on: 04 September, 2018, 09:22:13 pm »
According to the Eroica website, only pre-1980 non-indexed bar-end shifters are allowed.

https://eroica.cc/bicycle
Quote
more recent bikes with gears and derailleurs, such as Simplex, Huret, Campagnolo, Zeus, Shimano, Suntour, etc. must have shift levers on the down tube of the frame; exceptions include pre-1980 non indexed bar-end gear shifters and rod/hand manual operated front derailleurs;

Quote
Vintage Style Bikes with steel frame from new or recent construction with vintage look and characteristics may be used only if they are road racing bikes assembled using vintage components or replicated parts similar to the original as described above. In particular if the bikes are inspired by the design of road racing bicycles of the 1970’s and 1980’s, they must comply with the 3 fundamental rules (a,b,c) regarding shift levers, toe clips and straps, and brake cables.

I'm sure that 1980 year for bar-cons is a typo, I think what they mean is 1987. Because they allow newly made frames and parts as long it's old style, ie non-aero brakes, pedals with toe clips and friction levers, down tube or bar ends.

Re: Are bar-end shifters acceptable for pre-87 and how are the cables run if so?
« Reply #14 on: 04 September, 2018, 09:32:44 pm »
sun tour barcons of the type pictured above have been available for over 43 years;


1975 SunTour catalogue

Addendum:  http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=12404&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
is from feb '73 and shows the same shifters too.

cheers



Re: Are bar-end shifters acceptable for pre-87 and how are the cables run if so?
« Reply #16 on: 06 September, 2018, 08:23:57 pm »
yebbut the danger of that routing (esp with old-skool cables) is that the shift is mushy and vague. Mind you Eddy was being forced to use Simplex gears just then, so they were very likely that way anyway.... ::-)



qu'est-ce que c'est, ce 'Simplex?' Espece de merde plastique, n'est pas...? etc etc

with all due apologies for my appalling French grammar...
cheers

Re: Are bar-end shifters acceptable for pre-87 and how are the cables run if so?
« Reply #17 on: 07 September, 2018, 07:28:48 pm »
BTW I guess they have to have a cutoff for eroica rules (and as such it is liable to be somewhat arbitrary) but the rules linked to above are different from those I looked at a few years ago. They mentioned that screw-on freewheels only were allowed and -I think- there was some statement about age correct road racing parts being allowed regardless of type.

Given that aero brakes and levers had been around for quite a few years by 1987, Shimano had launched three 'aero' AX groupsets in late 1981  and mainstream groupsets contained both indexed gears and aero brake levers by 1987 too, 1987 seems an odd date to choose as a cutoff with the caveats that they specify.

cheers

Re: Are bar-end shifters acceptable for pre-87 and how are the cables run if so?
« Reply #18 on: 07 September, 2018, 08:35:00 pm »
Is '87 perhaps the year that Campag caught up with these innovations? Not to suggest that Eroica would be guilty of so base an emotion as national chauvinism...

Re: Are bar-end shifters acceptable for pre-87 and how are the cables run if so?
« Reply #19 on: 07 September, 2018, 09:43:18 pm »
Is '87 perhaps the year that Campag caught up with these innovations? Not to suggest that Eroica would be guilty of so base an emotion as national chauvinism...

Well, I was racing criteriums in 1969 with handlebar controls. Even then, I had a ( then) “old” cycle bare end control with a ball end on my hack bike.

Re: Are bar-end shifters acceptable for pre-87 and how are the cables run if so?
« Reply #20 on: 07 September, 2018, 10:24:38 pm »
http://campybike.com/pdf/1987CampagnoloRecord.pdf

 campag had aero brake levers in their groupsets earlier than 1987; actually they were convertible levers, so that when the cable was aero routed it went over an extra bracket inside the lever (which may have caused the cable to fail sooner than it might have otherwise) and the lever hoods came with a plug that covered the non-aero hole. By 1988 the levers were still convertible in several models but the hoods no longer had holes and plugs; if you wanted to route the cable in the non-aero way, you had to make your own hole.  So if you want to ride your 1986 or 1987 campag record levers in eroica maybe you have to run your cables through the convertible levers in the non-aero way even though they can be routed aero-wise?  If so it seems a bit daft to me.

1986/1987 did see the launch of 'synchro', campag's first go at indexing.

https://campybike.com/pdf/1987CampagnoloSyncro.pdf

I paraphrase , but they rather sniffily say that 'indexing has previously been characteristic of leisure (non competitive) cycling'  and that they are 'appealing to this market sector because it is becoming more important', implying that if you are a real racer, you will neither want nor need indexing.

 [Aside: In the 1987 (C-) Record brochure (available on Velobase), they are very proud of their three-ball one way clutch on the gear levers, which brought them on a par with Simplex retrofriction levers; for about ten years many pros had fitted the Simplex levers to otherwise campag-equipped bikes; this stable door was finally bolted. BTW the same mechanism was briefly, perhaps as a prototype only, available in Nuovo/Super Record format levers, but it isn't listed in any catalogues. In the 1987 C-record brochure, they grudgingly admit that you can have indexed gear levers thusly;  "For those who do not want to use the shift lever of champions, it is possible to....." etc... :o. they really were not keen.....]

   IIRC Synchro levers cost a fortune at the time and although it was in theory a fantastically versatile system (with inserts to match all current and most older mechs to all kinds of freewheels),  as some of my disappointed chums pointed out,  it "didn't actually work" by which they meant that it didn't offer click shifting anywhere near as good as shimano's, even though shimano were still on UG not HG at the time.

 They were right, it didn't; shifting was arguably made more awkward then ever in some cases (eg in a 'two clicks down and then one up' kind of a way) and how could it work well? - the design of their mechs was antediluvian and they were at the mercy of other folk's chains and sprockets too..... but in fairness campag never actually promised that it would; they claimed it was to 'get the derailleur exactly centred over the sprocket' and not that it would throw the chain nicely there in the first place.... ::-).   The small side lever, if pushed forwards, allowed reversion to traditional friction shifting, and BITD  that is how I saw a lot of folk riding their synchro levers....

Anyway if I had a late 1986 or 1987 bike with campag aero levers and Synchro shifting, I'd feel pretty cheesed off if it was deemed to be inadmissible for any, uh, 'non-competitive' ride.... ;)

cheers