GPX OR NOT GPX?

[Exit Stage Left]

I suppose the end result will be an AUK app, from where you can buy ID marked Audax routes.

There seems to be a demand for pre-prepared routes from the 'everything for nothing' generation, who expect only to ask, and to receive for free, with all the spadework done by someone else.

[FifeingEejit]

I suppose the end result will be an AUK app, from where you can buy ID marked Audax routes.

There seems to be a demand for pre-prepared routes from the 'everything for nothing' generation, who expect only to ask, and to receive for free, with all the spadework done by someone else.

A GPS file is just another format of route sheet, one that works with a modern technology that is becoming ubiquitous rather than in the previously ubiquitous paper form*.
If you take away the route sheet you have a navigational challenge event.


* Some people like to claim they are saving trees by not using paper, but apparently there's very little paper not made from 100% recycled pulp these days.

[FifeingEejit]

Bikehike was brilliant. RWGPS is where it is at now. Not found a better one.

RWGPS was launched in 2007
Bikehike was launched in 2008

Anyone else remember Bikely? I used that before RWGPS, and I was using RWGPS to plan rides long before I had a GPS device.

[grams]

There seems to be a demand for pre-prepared routes from the 'everything for nothing' generation, who expect only to ask, and to receive for free, with all the spadework done by someone else.

There’s one generation that expects organisers to manually go through every turning on the route, laboriously describing what the junction looks like, what might be on the sign post, how far along the route it is, mark any dangers on the route, and flatly refuses to use a GPS device that would make all this redudant. Can you imagine the entitlement of these people?

[postie]

VERY WRONG. Grams, its the monden day spoon fed i need everything done for me rider  that are the problem! !  Thing with routesheets is they are are great as a back up to a gps( which unbelievably  can fail) .

Many riders like both and as a organizer i am help to provide both.

Personally i like to read the route sheet before the event ,i find it gives me a feel for the ride, contols etc

On my 400km couple of weeks ,only one ride had no gps unit ( or old fashioned cycle computer as it happened)  he just used a routesheet , he was also first rider back!!

[grams]

That'll teach me to breach Poe's Law.

[Phil W]

Speaking of track point limits the GPX track I have been sent for next weekends 400 has 17780 track points. No guesses as to which site (mentioned unthread) is the source of such a track Now downsampled to 2,500 track points which still accurately follows the roads.

[quixoticgeek]

... many entrants don't have the means to mount a routesheet ...

I find that hard to believe.  I attach the route sheet, in a plastic bag (supplied free of charge at most event start controls), to my left wrist using an elastic band (supplied free by Royal Mail).  As a back up, I also take my right wrist along on the ride, and there's usually a spare elastic band around my spare inner tube.

But I would welcome some guidelines for what constitutes a universally useful GPX file.  I have evolved the following personal guidelines for when I'm creating GPX files for my own events:

• provide in separate legs rather than one big file (to reduce file size)

Ugh, I find that really annoying. I want one file, for the whole thing, so I can see the whole route. I've loaded 10+ meg gpx files into my device it doesn't complain. Separating it out into legs just adds work load to the rider.

• plot on BikeHike to allow plotting off-road stretches
• save as "gpx track"
• title of file must be identical with the <name> tags
• don't use multiple <trkseg> tags

The not using multple trksegs is however a Good Thing™.


J

[De Sisti]

If you don't want to ............ cycling is not the sport activity for you.

FTFY

[quixoticgeek]

I'm confused how this is even a debate, it's 2019.

Generating a GPX file is really simple, if you are riding the route yourself to test it, and have a GPS. Ride route, take track from your route, share. Done. It may not be the most elegantly crafted track file, it may not be the smallest number of points needed to convey the route, but it will be the route that you rode, as you want it to be ridden.

Now it may be that me being someone who's not done an AUK calendar event, but given the wiggly nature of some of the events I've done here, the route sheet would be multiple pages long, and quite frankly, my arm ain't big enough for that.

I won't do a calendar event that doesn't provide a GPX file, and the GPX file provided, I do expect to contain the full route, in as much detail as possible (if that's 100k track points, that's fine by me). I don't consider this an everything being provided for me kinda thing, I consider this a getting what I paid for kind of thing. I'm giving the org x amount of euros to do the ride, and part of that x is getting the route information in a sensible format. It's 2019, and I consider a GPX file to be the sensible format. If people want to provide a route sheet as well, that's great, but to me, the GPX is the more useful.

I was talking to a grizzled old fart of the Dutch Randoneuring community, and he was explaining to me that since 99% of riders are using GPS devices and thus the GPX files for navigation, the routes have become a lot more complex in their twistyness, They go into towns, rather than round them, because with electronic navigation it's easier. Else trying to get through Liege on a 300 would require a single A4 sheet of directions, and cover a distance of about 4km. In fact when you look at the route sheets provided for the Dutch events, it's basically a list of villages, and a distance. Sure you could try to navigate based on it, but it's going to be a pain.

RatN had something in the region of 35000 track points, is 3.1MB in size, and works just fine with a 2 year old wahoo... For anything run to an ACP distance, there should be no excuses about file size and number of points.

J

PS This of course does side step the utter fuckwits at Garmin who seem to think that the route you want to follow is made up of track points, where as the route points, (a much smaller number), is just, well, um, What ever garmin were smoking when they created this stuff I've got no clue, it makes no bloody sense.

[Exit Stage Left]

There seems to be a demand for pre-prepared routes from the 'everything for nothing' generation, who expect only to ask, and to receive for free, with all the spadework done by someone else.

There’s one generation that expects organisers to manually go through every turning on the route, laboriously describing what the junction looks like, what might be on the sign post, how far along the route it is, mark any dangers on the route, and flatly refuses to use a GPS device that would make all this redudant. Can you imagine the entitlement of these people?

Routes didn't come free in the old days, they were part of the package which came in your stamped A5 envelope. That's when AUK was a shoestring operation, with minimal overheads, thanks to its volunteer ethos, which stretched to IT.

But times change, and routes are intellectual property, which can help cover overheads. Paywall technology marches on too.

There are lots of routes on Strava. I'm not too familiar with their pricing model though. As I said, an integrated app, straight to your device is the obvious way ahead. There's no need to be an IT hobbyist these days, and the coming generation are used to paying. It's the generation in the middle who are out of step with progress.

[Kim]

• provide in separate legs rather than one big file (to reduce file size)

Ugh, I find that really annoying. I want one file, for the whole thing, so I can see the whole route. I've loaded 10+ meg gpx files into my device it doesn't complain. Separating it out into legs just adds work load to the rider.

Personally, I'm happy with a single massive track *unless* the route is cyclic, at which point splitting it up serves as insurance against GPS receivers trying (or failing) to be clever.  I'm also happy to split or merge tracks to suit as part of my pre-audax homework; it's a fraction of the time I'm likely to spend studying the map generally.

(I don't think the GPS manufacturers are right or wrong about what they do when you're off-route and the nearest part of the route is further along than the n+1th point.  It's an inherently arbitrary decision, and which is best depends on whether you're more interested in the destination or the journey.  The smart solution would be to make it configurable.)

[quixoticgeek]

Personally, I'm happy with a single massive track *unless* the route is cyclic, at which point splitting it up serves as insurance against GPS receivers trying (or failing) to be clever.  I'm also happy to split or merge tracks to suit as part of my pre-audax homework; it's a fraction of the time I'm likely to spend studying the map generally.

I'm not sure what there is to be clever about. It's drawing a line on the screen, you follow the line. A good device shows the next x km (say 2.5km), as one colour/shade/style, and the rest of the route as a different shade/colour/style. You can then see which bit you're following.

(I don't think the GPS manufacturers are right or wrong about what they do when you're off-route and the nearest part of the route is further along than the n+1th point.  It's an inherently arbitrary decision, and which is best depends on whether you're more interested in the destination or the journey.  The smart solution would be to make it configurable.)

It beeps, or flashes a light, and does nothing else. Your device is drawing a line on a screen, with a "YOU ARE HERE" marker. If "YOU ARE HERE" is not on top of the route line, then it's up to you to work out the best way to get it to match up. What the bloody hell else can it do?

J

[Kim]

It beeps, or flashes a light, and does nothing else. Your device is drawing a line on a screen, with a "YOU ARE HERE" marker. If "YOU ARE HERE" is not on top of the route line, then it's up to you to work out the best way to get it to match up. What the bloody hell else can it do?

It can show you a series of roads / a next turn instruction / a simple direction arrow to take to get you back to the route you're following, or calculate the true on-road distance to something (the next turn, the next instruction, the next control, the destination, whatever) and derived average speeds, arrival time or whatever.

I've yet to meet one that's satisfactorily good at this.  You can coax Garmin's on-road routing to approximate it, but Garmin's piss-poor implementation (which has actually got worse since the HCx models) doesn't make the concept a bad idea, particularly for riders who for whatever reason struggle with interpreting a graphical display while riding a bike.

Following a line isn't the only way to use a GPS receiver.  But even then, if you want to do the line-colouring you describe, the device has to make a decision about which part of the route is 'next'.  If you stick to the route, that's trivial, but what should it do if you deviate and rejoin the route further ahead?  Does it pick up and carry on, or does it direct you back along the route so you cover the missed section?  Either could be correct behaviour.

[Dai P]

As someone of an older generation I used route sheets until this year, did try a Garmin once but couldn’t make it work.  I was bought a Wahoo Bolt and wow what a difference!  I still have the route sheet as it gives me comfort but the ease of navigation with the Bolt is awesome.  Riding at night, the last two 300’s has been a super, so enjoyed.  Using rwgps for touring over Easter eased the use of more minor roads, loved it.  I will always have a route sheet and carry a map but the ‘go to’ Will now be electronic...... an old fart converted.

[quixoticgeek]

It beeps, or flashes a light, and does nothing else. Your device is drawing a line on a screen, with a "YOU ARE HERE" marker. If "YOU ARE HERE" is not on top of the route line, then it's up to you to work out the best way to get it to match up. What the bloody hell else can it do?

It can show you a series of roads to take to get you back to the route you're following, or calculate the true on-road distance to something (the next turn, the next instruction, the next control, the destination, whatever) and derived average speeds, arrival time or whatever.

Please tell me what ever device it is that does this, so I can make sure never to buy one.

I've yet to meet one that's satisfactorily good at this.  You can coax Garmin's on-road routing to approximate it, but Garmin's piss-poor implementation doesn't make the concept a bad idea, particularly for riders who for whatever reason struggle with interpreting a graphical display while riding a bike.

Following a line isn't the only way to use a GPS receiver.

Weird...

To me a GPSr on a bike is basically the same as a map bungeed to the handlebars with a dot saying You Are Here™, and your route drawn on the map. As a navigational aid, I want nothing else from the GPSr.

From a computer function, I want it to record my ride, give me speed, cadence, and log all my funky data. I don't want it to be thinking about routing or any other crap like that.

As someone of an older generation I used route sheets until this year, did try a Garmin once but couldn’t make it work.  I was bought a Wahoo Bolt and wow what a difference!  I still have the route sheet as it gives me comfort but the ease of navigation with the Bolt is awesome.  Riding at night, the last two 300’s has been a super, so enjoyed.  Using rwgps for touring over Easter eased the use of more minor roads, loved it.  I will always have a route sheet and carry a map but the ‘go to’ Will now be electronic...... an old fart converted.

I have two Wahoo Elemnt Bolt's. One died on day 7 of RatN, so I bought another one. The original one seems to have since recovered. I needed a backup nav device anyway, but it's €239 I hadn't budgeted on. It's just so bloody simple to use. Love it.

J

[Kim]

Weird...

To me a GPSr on a bike is basically the same as a map bungeed to the handlebars with a dot saying You Are Here™, and your route drawn on the map. As a navigational aid, I want nothing else from the GPSr.

That's fine (indeed, that's mostly how I use mine).  Someone with a visual impairment, lack of map-reading skills, poor mental arithmetic or preference for routesheet-style prompting may have a different opinion.  I'm sure you're familiar with the type of prompting and journey time estimation features ubiquitous in car sat-navs.  It doesn't seem unreasonable to want a device that can provide similar UI features while sticking to a pre-programmed route - and is practical to use on a long bicycle ride.
 Particularly when navigation isn't actually part of the challenge.

[quixoticgeek]

That's fine (indeed, that's mostly how I use mine).  Someone with a visual impairment, lack of map-reading skills, poor mental arithmetic or preference for routesheet-style prompting may have a different opinion.  I'm sure you're familiar with the type of prompting and journey time estimation features ubiquitous in car sat-navs.  It doesn't seem unreasonable to want a device that can provide similar UI features while sticking to a pre-programmed route. and is practical to use on a long bicycle ride.
 Particularly when navigation isn't actually part of the challenge.

All lovely features, but that's gonna need a huuuge screen to fit it all...

J

[Kim]

That's fine (indeed, that's mostly how I use mine).  Someone with a visual impairment, lack of map-reading skills, poor mental arithmetic or preference for routesheet-style prompting may have a different opinion.  I'm sure you're familiar with the type of prompting and journey time estimation features ubiquitous in car sat-navs.  It doesn't seem unreasonable to want a device that can provide similar UI features while sticking to a pre-programmed route. and is practical to use on a long bicycle ride.
 Particularly when navigation isn't actually part of the challenge.

All lovely features, but that's gonna need a huuuge screen to fit it all...

Or no screen at all.  I never suggested that you have to do all this stuff at the same time.  You might just want the classic 1990s GPS style compass arrow.  Or an accurate ETA at the next control on your 'bike computer'.  Or a (text and/or audio) routesheet-style turn instruction, without any kind of graphics.

(The prompting displays fine on my eTrex 30 screen - indeed, it's clearer in urban areas than following a line, which is why I tend to use follow-road routing on my tourer, because the device is mounted - by necessity - further away from my eyes.  The problem is it doesn't route consistently.)

[FifeingEejit]

Crude example of where breadcrum navigation and matching can go horribly wrong:



A route "cannons" at a junction;
Leg 1 the black leg approaches from the west, turns side road left, then left at cross.
Leg 2 the red leg approaches from the east, turns side road right, then right at cross.

A well designed device knows you are following Leg 1 and where leg 1 and leg 2 intersect has no interest in placing you on Leg 2 because it isn't wasting battery and CPU cycles trying to match the whole route at once but has loaded up around 1km.
A poorly designed device detects you are matching Leg 1 and then at the intersection shouts Wohahahahahaha WTF. and decides to match Leg 2; thus telling you to go the wrong way.

Where the well designed device may fall over is if you stop at the bus stop and GPS signal is lost and/or it goes to sleep or anything else that will cause it to have to rematch your location to the route


It has now lost the context of what you were doing before the shut down, which route should it navigate for you, Leg 1 or Leg 2?
The obvious solution is for the device to work out what your recorded in the last km or so; but what if the cannon is longer than the algorithm is designed to work out for?


Edit: And then there's the really shit that decides when you're on an out and back to start reading you the cue's backwards...

[quixoticgeek]

Or no screen at all...

Audio queues?

A bug I've found in many audio based navigation systems (cyclestreets, ridewithgps app, komoot app, google maps), is when you get a really long straight section, you get no signs of life from the device, when using cyclestreets a couple of years back, it said follow a road for 10km, after about 30 mins I thought why hasn't it told me anything new, turns out it had crashed 10 minutes ago, and I'd missed my turning. Wish it had a "Keep going for another 8km" "Keep going for 3 more km" etc...

J

[quixoticgeek]

Crude example of where breadcrum navigation and matching can go horribly wrong:



A route "cannons" at a junction;
Leg 1 the black leg approaches from the west, turns side road left, then left at cross.
Leg 2 the red leg approaches from the east, turns side road right, then right at cross.

A well designed device knows you are following Leg 1 and where leg 1 and leg 2 intersect has no interest in placing you on Leg 2 because it isn't wasting battery and CPU cycles trying to match the whole route at once but has loaded up around 1km.
A poorly designed device detects you are matching Leg 1 and then at the intersection shouts Wohahahahahaha WTF. and decides to match Leg 2; thus telling you to go the wrong way.

Where the well designed device may fall over is if you stop at the bus stop and GPS signal is lost and/or it goes to sleep or anything else that will cause it to have to rematch your location to the route


It has now lost the context of what you were doing before the shut down, which route should it navigate for you, Leg 1 or Leg 2?
The obvious solution is for the device to work out what your recorded in the last km or so; but what if the cannon is longer than the algorithm is designed to work out for?

Which ever one the user picks, cos the user remembers they were following the left hand route... And if the user forgets, yeah, it's a mess.

J

[Kim]

Or no screen at all...

Audio queues?

A bug I've found in many audio based navigation systems (cyclestreets, ridewithgps app, komoot app, google maps), is when you get a really long straight section, you get no signs of life from the device, when using cyclestreets a couple of years back, it said follow a road for 10km, after about 30 mins I thought why hasn't it told me anything new, turns out it had crashed 10 minutes ago, and I'd missed my turning. Wish it had a "Keep going for another 8km" "Keep going for 3 more km" etc...

Yeah, I can't be doing with them myself, for much that reason.

But if it's all you can see...

[FifeingEejit]

Which ever one the user picks, cos the user remembers they were following the left hand route... And if the user forgets, yeah, it's a mess.

J

Aye, you turn left and it should eventually work out you're on Leg 1, but this requires you to have been paying attention to the route ahead through the entire sequence of the cannon intersection.

[Kim]

Which ever one the user picks, cos the user remembers they were following the left hand route... And if the user forgets, yeah, it's a mess.

J

Aye, you turn left and it should eventually work out you're on Leg 1, but this requires you to have been paying attention to the route ahead through the entire sequence of the cannon intersection.

I call this the "which way to turn out of the station" problem, and it's surprisingly hard to solve, in wetware as much as in software.

(Ultimately, the whole point in a GPS receiver is to make up for the shortfall in my brain's abilities.)