Electricity Smart Meter

[grams]

I can't see much benefit for the end user. I know people who have them fitted. I have yet to observe people changing their energy usage. A 3 kW kettle is a big energy consumer, but that's not going to stand in the way of a nice cuppa.

If they found a way to penalise you (or gamify, as the cool kids say) every time they boil four cuppas worth of water to make one cuppa they'd be on to a winner.

(replacing every 3000W kettle with a Travelodge-spec 600W job that really made you wait would be the low-tech solution)

[rob]

I can't see much benefit for the end user. I know people who have them fitted. I have yet to observe people changing their energy usage. A 3 kW kettle is a big energy consumer, but that's not going to stand in the way of a nice cuppa.

If they found a way to penalise you (or gamify, as the cool kids say) every time they boil four cuppas worth of water to make one cuppa they'd be on to a winner.

(replacing every 3000W kettle with a Travelodge-spec 600W job that really made you wait would be the low-tech solution)

I just don’t think the average energy consumer cares enough.  Fuel poverty is a huge problem but you still don’t get engaged customers.

I don’t think the financial incentives are big enough.  I also don’t think penalising really works if you use petrol pricing or fags as an example.

I suspect that a strategy heading towards net zero would mean physically banning inefficient equipment.  The power sector had changed significantly but heat is a big emitter.  Think how many gas boilers there are out there that will need to be replaced.

[Feanor]

Ovens tend to be 3kw+

Actually, that's not really right.

When it comes to electrically heated cooking appliances, it's the hobs, not the ovens that are the high-power consumers.
Ovens are much more modest, and can usually be provisioned on a standard UK 13A socket, and do not require a special circuit.
Elements are in the 1 to 2 kW range.

Hobs, on the other hand, have four or five elements which might be used simultaneously, and generally require a special circuit.

[Mrs Pingu]

Re: gas boilers - tell me that the energy used to build, ship & install a brand new gas boiler is less than I'm 'wasting' on my current one and I might change it.
Electric - come and fit some EV panels on my roof and the roof of my shed if it's that important.
If it is that important (and it is) have a standardised way of doing it and feeding in instead of all the pissing about.

[rob]

When I replaced the gas boiler at our last but one place my consumption halved.   It was a massive change but the old one was really crap and I suspect it was slightly hooky like a lot of the rest of the stuff in the house.

I suspect we’ll end up banning gas boilers in new build and then bringing a scrappage scheme back in.  There’s quite a lot of interest in ground source and air source heat pumps as well as hydrogen possibly being the next big thing.  Can’t see storage heating being a big thing again.

[FifeingEejit]

I tried that last one about storage heaters on my brother (sparky) earlier.
I got a lecture in how people are pish at controlling storage heaters and how newer ones take control of the bit people were pish at.

I'm not exactly sold.


Best thing I've got out of smart meters is mums shut up about me using all the electricity as when I've got an empty I rarely breech the £1 mark.


Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

[grams]

Gas boilers tend to get ripped out like once a decade anyway, so you can just wait for natural atrophy.

Or you could if there were some non fossil fuel like-for-like replacement, but every ASHP and GSHP I can find is comically large and expensive, even ignoring the outdoor bits.

[perpetual dan]

...snip...

It's 2020, what sort of backwards barbarian colony still burns stuff to cook their dinner?

J

Colony? We’ve taken back control!

As for electric storage heaters for house heating, we had that in the first house we bought. It was expensive enough to make converting back worthwhile. Despite the idiot previous owners squashing all the radiator pipes as they cut them out.

Have the economics of running the thing shifted? Because if not no amount of demand shifting is going to make the low emissions a widespread winner.

[ian]

Re: gas boilers - tell me that the energy used to build, ship & install a brand new gas boiler is less than I'm 'wasting' on my current one and I might change it.
Electric - come and fit some EV panels on my roof and the roof of my shed if it's that important.
If it is that important (and it is) have a standardised way of doing it and feeding in instead of all the pissing about.

This is the real problem, isn't it? Our boiler is over a decade old but runs fine. I've no idea if it's cost-effective to replace it. I'm told we're moving away from gas boilers, but honestly, who knows. I have a big roof, it could be bristling with solar. Would this be an effective investment, who knows that either? We don't really seem to have any policies beyond we might do something, some day.

But yeah, I can get a smart meter (whether I want one or not) and fret about the kettle. Precisely no people will do this. We're dealing with people who run their car to charge their mobile.

[quixoticgeek]

Colony? We’ve taken back control!

I'm glad you put the smiley on there...

As for electric storage heaters for house heating, we had that in the first house we bought. It was expensive enough to make converting back worthwhile. Despite the idiot previous owners squashing all the radiator pipes as they cut them out.

Electric storage heaters are a bloody stupid idea. There is a reason they are banned in some countries.

I hope that in the event of any boiler scrappage scheme, they include getting rid of storage heaters too...

Have the economics of running the thing shifted? Because if not no amount of demand shifting is going to make the low emissions a widespread winner.

What thing?

We can replace gas fired boilers for hot water with an electric heated water tank. These are very efficient, and also coming down in price quite nicely.

For space heating, the answer is heat pumps. Ground source would be preferred, but air source is still good too. The big problem with heat pumps is they are seriously fscking expensive. Considerably more so than a gas boiler. But that is largely due to economies of scale. When the demand goes up, the production costs should come down a bit. They also have the issue that they produce a low grade heat, which can be an issue with radiators that were designed for gas boiler supplied hot water. There are ways round this, in a new build, underfloor heating is the way forward, but there are modern heat pumps coming onto the market that sacrifice a little in efficiency, for being able to feed into traditional radiators, making for a reasonably effective plug and pray system.

In cities tho, the thing to also consider is district heating. Where I live we joke about having heated cycle lanes. The reason for this is the waste heat from the nearby MSW fired power station is used to heat the homes in this area. Cycle paths are cheaper to dig up, so when they ran the pipes, they did so under the cycle lanes. Result, they cycle lanes freeze slower. In the basement of this building we have a huge heat exchanger that takes the hot water from the MSW plant, and uses it to heat the water in the circuit that supplies the building. The result is that all 7 units on my stair are connected together, and when one of them fucks up and gets air in the system, it all collects in my living room radiator... not bitter and annoyed about this... honest... There are plans to get rid of the MSW fired power plant, not least because it was originally a coal plant, and the whole air quality thing. But when they do so, I'm not sure what they will do about the district heat. I wonder if we'll see neighbourhood scale heat pumps...

NL has already banned gas boilers for new builds I believe, and the UK has a ban coming in, tho I am not sure when it will come into effect. 2024 rings a bell, but it could be something pointless like 2030.

J

[rob]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/gone-with-the-wind-why-electricity-shortages-are-becoming-the-norm

Sorry for the Spectator linky.   

[Cudzoziemiec]

Colony? We’ve taken back control!

I'm glad you put the smiley on there...

As for electric storage heaters for house heating, we had that in the first house we bought. It was expensive enough to make converting back worthwhile. Despite the idiot previous owners squashing all the radiator pipes as they cut them out.

Electric storage heaters are a bloody stupid idea. There is a reason they are banned in some countries.

House I grew up in had electric storage heaters. It was always cold and without Economy 7 it would have been v expensive to run. Also, the heaters themselves contained asbestos.

In cities tho, the thing to also consider is district heating. Where I live we joke about having heated cycle lanes. The reason for this is the waste heat from the nearby MSW fired power station is used to heat the homes in this area. Cycle paths are cheaper to dig up, so when they ran the pipes, they did so under the cycle lanes. Result, they cycle lanes freeze slower. In the basement of this building we have a huge heat exchanger that takes the hot water from the MSW plant, and uses it to heat the water in the circuit that supplies the building. The result is that all 7 units on my stair are connected together, and when one of them fucks up and gets air in the system, it all collects in my living room radiator... not bitter and annoyed about this... honest... There are plans to get rid of the MSW fired power plant, not least because it was originally a coal plant, and the whole air quality thing. But when they do so, I'm not sure what they will do about the district heat. I wonder if we'll see neighbourhood scale heat pumps...

This is pretty standard in Poland. I lived in several places with district heating and they were all very warm at very low cost. Mind you they were also blocks of flats, so inherently much warmer than a house, unless you're on the ground floor (which ironically commands higher prices). Most out there are still coal fired, of course. Never experienced any break downs.

But heated cycle lanes? It might work in Netherlands but in Poland and other colder places it would and did (on pavements and roads – no cycle lanes when I was there in the '00s) result in lethal ice, as the snow melts then refreezes.

[perpetual dan]

Colony? We’ve taken back control!

I'm glad you put the smiley on there...

You'll have seen too the bits I didn't contest as well    </pobi>

As for electric storage heaters for house heating, we had that in the first house we bought. It was expensive enough to make converting back worthwhile. Despite the idiot previous owners squashing all the radiator pipes as they cut them out.

Electric storage heaters are a bloody stupid idea. There is a reason they are banned in some countries.

I hope that in the event of any boiler scrappage scheme, they include getting rid of storage heaters too...

Have the economics of running the thing shifted? Because if not no amount of demand shifting is going to make the low emissions a widespread winner.

What thing?

Space heating with not-gas. As you said: Gas is too cheap to make the up-front cost of some other system, plus any running costs, economic in the time before people move house. When selling the house, it's only an advantage by the amount of the running costs. And while there's a lot of talk of needing more houses, we're mostly in places that aren't going to be replaced any time soon.

...
In cities tho, the thing to also consider is district heating. Where I live we joke about having heated cycle lanes. The reason for this is the waste heat from the nearby MSW fired power station is used to heat the homes in this area. Cycle paths are cheaper to dig up, so when they ran the pipes, they did so under the cycle lanes. Result, they cycle lanes freeze slower. In the basement of this building we have a huge heat exchanger that takes the hot water from the MSW plant, and uses it to heat the water in the circuit that supplies the building. The result is that all 7 units on my stair are connected together, and when one of them fucks up and gets air in the system, it all collects in my living room radiator... not bitter and annoyed about this... honest... There are plans to get rid of the MSW fired power plant, not least because it was originally a coal plant, and the whole air quality thing. But when they do so, I'm not sure what they will do about the district heat. I wonder if we'll see neighbourhood scale heat pumps...

NL has already banned gas boilers for new builds I believe, and the UK has a ban coming in, tho I am not sure when it will come into effect. 2024 rings a bell, but it could be something pointless like 2030.

J

We used to have district heating in some parts of London. Back in the mists of time, my Mum worked for the council housing department and they had blocks that were heated from the local power station.

And, circling back to load shedding and off-peak pricing, I'd use our tumbler at night (on cheaper electricity) more often if it didn't have a history of tripping the earth leakage breaker. Given that it needed an after-sales fix because of a tendency of that model to catch fire because of water + electricity, I'm not that optimistic about them designing a secure and safe power management controller.

[grams]

We used to have district heating in some parts of London. Back in the mists of time, my Mum worked for the council housing department and they had blocks that were heated from the local power station.

We have brand new district heating here in communist Islington:
https://www.theade.co.uk/case-studies/visionary/islington-councils-bunhill-heat-and-power

(although building a brand new fossil fuel power station is pretty lame)

[rob]

Been scanning the 10 point plan details that have come out this week.

On the domestic heating front it looks like they are pushing heat pumps with a target of 600,000 installations per year.  There's nothing very clear on gas boilers but there will be a requirement on builders to produce low carbon homes.   It seems this will be a push towards better insulation rather than an outright ban on boilers.   Probably carrot rather than stick, again.

Smart meters don't seem to get a mention.

[Quisling]

Been scanning the 10 point plan details that have come out this week.

On the domestic heating front it looks like they are pushing heat pumps with a target of 600,000 installations per year.  There's nothing very clear on gas boilers but there will be a requirement on builders to produce low carbon homes.   It seems this will be a push towards better insulation rather than an outright ban on boilers.   Probably carrot rather than stick, again.

Smart meters don't seem to get a mention.

Fossil fuel boilers have already been outlawed on new homes from 2025.  I'd like to see electricity submetering on all heat pumps for homeowners to separate heat input power from other electricity usage in the home.
The latest proposed building regs unfortunately favour technology bells and whistles rather than a "fabric first" approach to minimising demand.  Arse about face obviously 

[Mrs Pingu]

While I think the idea of heat pumps etc is a good one, I remain very sceptical that they would produce enough heat to make a 'normal' old British house (e.g. with solid walls that need to breathe, that is hard to insulate without completely blocking off all ventilation that we're now told we actually need,  etc) feel a comfortable temperature in the winter.
I'm sure they are great in well designed modern homes with lots of insulation etc and I don't think there's any excuse for not using in new builds assuming they are built to a decent standard..

[MikeFromLFE]

I'm told that heat pumps can be noisy when running.
Can anyone confirm this?
Any louder than an air conditioning unit?

I'm thinking that if in a typical 1930s semi - like ours - a heat pump unit in the drive (between the houses) would severely hack off the neighbour, until they put one in too and we are both suffering equally.

In this sort of situation - an old semi +heat pump at the moment the top up heating would be with the gas boiler, but in future the top up might well be electric space heating of some sort.

[Quisling]

I'm told that heat pumps can be noisy when running.
Can anyone confirm this?
Any louder than an air conditioning unit?

I'm thinking that if in a typical 1930s semi - like ours - a heat pump unit in the drive (between the houses) would severely hack off the neighbour, until they put one in too and we are both suffering equally.

In this sort of situation - an old semi +heat pump at the moment the top up heating would be with the gas boiler, but in future the top up might well be electric space heating of some sort.

Lots of good points here:
* Heat pumps are pretty quiet but you wouldn't want one whirring away right under your bungalow bedroom window necessarily.  But MCS accredited installers should undertake a noise design and ensure this is not problematic for neighbours in order to meet the building regs/planning requirements.
* a "bivalent" solution (two heat sources) with a heat pump running as lead boiler up to say 50 degrees, and a gas/oil boiler topping up heat on the coldest days is a more sensible interim solution that trying to shoehorn an air source heat pump into every application like old leaking properties with cast iron radiators etc.  There are plenty of ASHPs that can output at up to 90C, but the efficiency above 55C is poor and running costs will be higher than a gas boiler until such time as gas emissions are taxed more heavily.

Heatpumps are ideally matched to underfloor heating with flow temperatures of 30-35C where they will get excellent efficiencies.  Trying to retrofit with existing radiators as heat emitters banging out 60C or more is likely to result in seasonal coefficients of performance in the order of 2 to 2.5 (i.e. 1kWh electricity in = 2 kWh of heat out).  With electricity costing 3-4x gas per kWh, you therefore need to design schemes that deliver more efficient performance, although this equation changes a bit if you're currently on Calor Gas or oil.  Compared to direct electric heating, an ASHP wins hands down, as electric panel heaters are only ever 100% efficient.  The maths skew further if you have economy 7 and storage heaters....

I faced this whole challenge when I wanted to get rid of my oil boiler 7 years ago in a part Victorian house.  In the end I put in a wood pellet boiler + solar hot water.  It was probably the right decision at the time, but if I was doing it again I'd do an ASHP + small oil boiler for top-up on coldest days, but select the ASHP to be capable of high output temperatures so I'd have the option of running it harder if the boiler failed.

[rafletcher]

How much real estate is required for an ASHP? (yeah, and tell me how long that piece of string needs to be too )  Say for a typical 70's 3 bed semi.

[quixoticgeek]

How much real estate is required for an ASHP? (yeah, and tell me how long that piece of string needs to be too )  Say for a typical 70's 3 bed semi.

About the same as a small fridge. Give or take.

J

[grams]

How much real estate is required for an ASHP? (yeah, and tell me how long that piece of string needs to be too )  Say for a typical 70's 3 bed semi.

You need an outdoor thing that looks a lot like an oversize air conditioner (because it is) and assuming you're interfacing with central heating pipes or underfloor heating you need a heat exchanger indoors which seem to vary in size from "oversize boiler" to "massive fridge freezer".

[Zipperhead]

We used to have district heating in some parts of London. Back in the mists of time, my Mum worked for the council housing department and they had blocks that were heated from the local power station.

Churchill Gardens in Pimlico used to be heated by waste heat from Battersea power station. There's a tunnel under the river for the pipes. When the power station was shut down a boiler house was built, on the south side of the river, to heat the estate, on the north side.

Here's the hot water tank

[cygnet]

Bunhill and Citigen aslo provide district heating in the Farringdon/Barbican/Old St area

[rob]

Bunhill and Citigen aslo provide district heating in the Farringdon/Barbican/Old St area

I used to look after the Citigen contract when I worked for London Electricity 20 years ago.