Author Topic: Electricity Smart Meter  (Read 58736 times)

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #275 on: 21 August, 2022, 12:09:02 pm »
How does it explain long distance rates? I though that was to do with needing booster stations (if we're talking about landlines) and presumably multiple relays for cellphones?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #276 on: 21 August, 2022, 12:54:31 pm »
How does it explain long distance rates? I though that was to do with needing booster stations (if we're talking about landlines) and presumably multiple relays for cellphones?

In the early days a trunk might have been a literal bundle of twisted pairs, with each pair of wires carrying one phone call as baseband audio.  For decades it would be tens of calls multiplexed into a broadband signal on a coaxial cable (or point to point radio link[1]), with regular repeaters.  Either way, more capacity means you need to add more cables, which is expensive.  Now it's all fibre optics, with each fibre being able to carry literally thousands of calls, with fewer repeaters, and a lot less maintenance.  It's not a bottleneck any more; there are only so many people wanting to make phone calls.

You need to have a complete network (with all the expense of digging trenches and such), but the cost of the capacity becomes marginal (indeed, fibre itself is so cheap that it's now standard practice to install additional 'dark' fibres which aren't intended to be used until some non-specific time in the future) so you don't need to manage people's telephonic habits by billing them at different rates.

For cellular, the scarce resource is radio spectrum.  You've got a finite number of channels to play with, and once you start hitting that limit, the only way to win - short of new technology appearing - is to make the cells smaller (so you can re-use the same bit of spectrum in the next cell over), which means more infrastructure (masts, and cables or point-to-point radio links for the back-haul) to cover the same geographic area.  Then at some point you have to connect your network to everyone else's, and suck up *their* charges for completing the call.  Hence mobile calls used to be astronomically expensive.

Now we're living in The Future, and telecoms is all about shifting data around.  Voice calls themselves are such a comparatively small amount of the data that they don't need much special treatment any more.  Unavoidable[2] bottlenecks are usually at the local level, where infrastructure is old or insufficient.

I can imagine a world where electricity generation is increasingly decentralised, and billing might undergo a similar shift as distribution costs begin to dominate.  Maybe we'll be charged according to the current capacity of our supply, rather than the number of kilowatt-hours consumed.  Maybe we'll pay Western Power Distribution by the amp, and then West Midlands Renewables Cooperative by the killowatt-hour?


[1] Hence the Post Office Tower and inferior concrete equivalents up the spine of England, which used to be sprawling with microwave dishes, and are now home to a couple of cellular sites and the occasional family of peregrine falcons.
[2] As opposed to ISPs being cheap about transit capacity.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #277 on: 21 August, 2022, 01:14:44 pm »
Comprehensive and clear.  :thumbsup:
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #278 on: 21 August, 2022, 01:48:08 pm »
If they can't physically fit a meter when requested [recent experience of a house supplied via next door's main coming up through a concrete floor and behind a fitted kitchen) the inspector completes a chit which reduces the unmetered charge by 50%.


They did that to me, when the chap said he couldn't fit a meter in my single occupant top floor flat.  They put me on an assessed charge of £260 per year . 
Not fast & rarely furious

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felstedrider

Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #279 on: 23 August, 2022, 08:04:05 am »
Conversation with our office manager yesterday.   Seems to be paying quite a lot for energy (sits in a room full of energy experts.....).

We got onto smart meters and I spent 15 minutes correcting all of the bad press.   'They can switch your supply whenever they want'.....'They can tell when you are on holiday'....'Just a way to charge you more'......

I, as usual, blame the Daily Mail.

Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #280 on: 27 August, 2022, 08:54:02 am »
'parently most Electricity SM installed are now SMETS2.  What kind of data can you extract from them?  kWh per hour/time of day/day/wk etc?  Do they have apps/PC software assoc'd?
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

felstedrider

Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #281 on: 27 August, 2022, 12:09:24 pm »
'parently most Electricity SM installed are now SMETS2.  What kind of data can you extract from them?  kWh per hour/time of day/day/wk etc?  Do they have apps/PC software assoc'd?

Configured properly they can record half-hourly consumption.   The data you can see via your supplier will depend how clever they are and what their software can offer.  When I just went through the application for Mum I opted for monthly reading, but half-hourly was an option.  She’s with BG.

I believe you can read the data direct and do your own analytics.  Kim seems to have done something like this.

Kim

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #282 on: 27 August, 2022, 12:12:23 pm »
I don't think there's much scope for talking to the meter automagically, unless you can intercept the Zigbee comms to the display thinger.  It's not like the ones in ABROAD that have a standard serial interface for the purpose.  You can see various parameters manually by poking buttons on the meter.

The meter sends, at best, half-hourly data[1] to the supplier.  Which you can access at some point the following day, if your supplier provides an API (or pretty website or app or something) to do that.

If the meter has a blinkenlight (regardless of whether it's smart), you can use a photodiode to count the blinks and do your own arithmetic.  I'm doing this to obtain minutely readings, which gives enough detail to infer something useful about appliance power consumption from the graphs:



(The blue 'power' line is from the blinkenlight on the meter.  The orange 'billing' line shows what's available from the meter via the Octopus API (see posts earlier in this thread), which is much less useful.)


[1] Which I suspect is literally just kWh.  Because anything else would be joined-up thinking[2].
[2] Obviously it would be useful for the distribution company to be able to monitor voltage (and probably current and power factor) trends, but that appears not to be possible.  They have to come out and physically install their own data loggers.

Beardy

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #283 on: 27 August, 2022, 12:18:49 pm »
On telephone call time and distance charges of old, I can go in to much greater detail than Kim is anyone is interested  ;D

On correction, the point to point microwave links connection to the Post Office tower were primarily a fallback network and used for television traffic. The microwave channels were much higher bandwidth than the coax cables used on trunk and junction calls.

I’ll stop there.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #284 on: 27 August, 2022, 01:11:48 pm »
'parently most Electricity SM installed are now SMETS2.  What kind of data can you extract from them?  kWh per hour/time of day/day/wk etc?  Do they have apps/PC software assoc'd?
There are a number of apps that will give you some easily digestable information.
On Android I can think of Hugo and Bright. Smartthings will show your electricity info.
You might want to think carefully about sharing this data with unknown app purveyors.
Too many angry people - breathe & relax.

rogerzilla

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #285 on: 27 August, 2022, 03:01:11 pm »
I suspect my gas meter is rather inaccurate.  It seems to have a lot of latency (like, a minute or so after turning off the hob) and, more usefully, registers an unrealistically low kW reading (about 30W) if only the small gas ring is in use.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Beardy

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #286 on: 27 August, 2022, 03:07:17 pm »
My supplier has sent me two emails and a text message this week in an attempt to get me to make an appointment for a smart meter install. I’m continuing to ignore them.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

Kim

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #287 on: 27 August, 2022, 03:22:07 pm »
I suspect my gas meter is rather inaccurate.  It seems to have a lot of latency (like, a minute or so after turning off the hob) and, more usefully, registers an unrealistically low kW reading (about 30W) if only the small gas ring is in use.

It's probably good at volume and rubbish at rate.  Presumably the electronics gets a pulse every time the bellows expands, which isn't going to be very often at low flow rates.  The filtering algorithm will then take time to determine when the next pulse hasn't arrived for long enough to qualify as 'off'.  And then there'll be a transmit interval optimised for battery life.

Basil

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #288 on: 27 August, 2022, 03:27:52 pm »
My supplier has sent me two emails and a text message this week in an attempt to get me to make an appointment for a smart meter install. I’m continuing to ignore them.

I ignore them too, and cut short the phone calls.
I'm not sure what it is I have against having one installed.  It's probably the constant nagging has resulted in stubborn negativity on my part.
Admission.  I'm actually not that fussed about cake.

Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #289 on: 27 August, 2022, 04:54:14 pm »
My supplier has sent me two emails and a text message this week in an attempt to get me to make an appointment for a smart meter install. I’m continuing to ignore them.

I ignore them too, and cut short the phone calls.
I'm not sure what it is I have against having one installed.  It's probably the constant nagging has resulted in stubborn negativity on my part.

Snap. Plus we’re in a poor signal area (no matter what the telco’s state) with the meters about 10m apart. And I’ll gain nothing from having one.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

orraloon

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #290 on: 27 August, 2022, 05:28:25 pm »
Alt approach:  smarts x2 due to be fitted on Tuesday.  Depending on whether installer goes 'yebbut...'

Kim

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #291 on: 27 August, 2022, 05:30:44 pm »
Smart meters have worked well for us, in that we haven't had anyone wake us at morning o'clock and require us to dig out the meters from behind a pile of bicycles and camping kit.

Mrs Pingu

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #292 on: 27 August, 2022, 05:50:54 pm »
We got ours fitted in July. Gas in the box outside the front door and electric just inside the front door. So far Octopus have not managed to talk to the electric meter.
 
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Kim

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #293 on: 27 August, 2022, 06:04:11 pm »
Our gas meter remains out of reach of the cephalopod's purple tentacles, though it did work for a while.

Basil

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #294 on: 27 August, 2022, 09:44:18 pm »
Smart meters have worked well for us, in that we haven't had anyone wake us at morning o'clock and require us to dig out the meters from behind a pile of bicycles and camping kit.

We don't get that. I just enter a reading online. They obviously think I'm trustworthy.
But what would be the point of under reporting?  I'd have to settle up eventually, at probably a much higher rate.

Thinks.  Hmm.  Maybe I should over report.  Pay for next year's leccie at this year's price.
Admission.  I'm actually not that fussed about cake.

felstedrider

Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #295 on: 27 August, 2022, 10:14:04 pm »
Mine went in a year ago.  I opted for monthly billing.  The install was quite easy as the house is only 5 years old and the meters are on the outside wall.

Ovo have managed to interface with them both OK and billing is automated.

Basil

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #296 on: 15 September, 2022, 10:01:33 am »
One of the regular Please, Please, Please Have A Smart Meter letters this morning.
With a new angle.
Quote
From 1 October, 100% renewable electricity will only be available to customers with a smart meter

How does that work then?
Admission.  I'm actually not that fussed about cake.

Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #297 on: 15 September, 2022, 10:56:57 am »
AIUI electricity providers buy green energy credits equivalent to the number of customers they’ve promised renewable energy. If only a fraction of customers have smart meters they only have to buy a fraction of the number of credits.

(And of course the credits are kind of a meaningless fiction anyway)

Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #298 on: 15 September, 2022, 11:09:44 am »
We got ours fitted in July. Gas in the box outside the front door and electric just inside the front door. So far Octopus have not managed to talk to the electric meter.

Duff meter?  I thinking about 'registering interest' in an Octopus SM, but not taken the plunge.  Apparently they're pretty busy with installs.
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Mrs Pingu

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Re: Electricity Smart Meter
« Reply #299 on: 15 September, 2022, 12:29:37 pm »
We got ours fitted in July. Gas in the box outside the front door and electric just inside the front door. So far Octopus have not managed to talk to the electric meter.

Duff meter?  I thinking about 'registering interest' in an Octopus SM, but not taken the plunge.  Apparently they're pretty busy with installs.
They tried rebooting it remotely which didn't fix it so am waiting on an engineer coming in November.
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.