Electricity Smart Meter

[felstedrider]

In my ‘two major aspects’ for electricity I include generation and transmission in the supply side, and also the sourcing of extra energy from outwith the UK when need, what used to be the preview of the CEGB. Distribution in my split to include local delivery of voles to users as well as collecting moneys from the same. This may have been split into extra segments to make it more palatable to capitalists to cherry pick the profitable bits, but that doesn’t make them any less of a false breakdown.

You're free to use whatever terms you like and to make whatever accusations about the financial motives of the industry you feel like.   I only seek to help forum members understand the industry.

The problem I have had with the press is the rhetoric of 'energy companies making billions while customers freeze'.   My question is usually 'what do you mean by an energy company ?'.   A lot of people don't know about the range of roles and responsibilities and where the margin, if any, sits.

Roughly :-

Gas production - extremely profitable after a few bad years
Power production - reasonably profitable after lots of bad years but now about to be taxed to the eyeballs
Transmission - profitable but regulated returns
Distribution - profitable but regulated returns
Supply - complete basket case of an industry - if you manage your business properly there's a chance you'll make 1-2% gross margin

[Kim]

Out of interest, where does metering come in?  I assumed they were historically the responsibility of the DNO, but my recent adventures in smart metering suggests they're managed by the supplier, presumably by outsourcing to a third party?

And presumably there's some other company that operates the comms infrastructure and unwieldy database that collects readings from smart meters and delivers it to suppliers a day later...

[felstedrider]

Out of interest, where does metering come in?  I assumed they were historically the responsibility of the DNO, but my recent adventures in smart metering suggests they're managed by the supplier, presumably by outsourcing to a third party?

And presumably there's some other company that operates the comms infrastructure and unwieldy database that collects readings from smart meters and delivers it to suppliers a day later...

Ah, yes.   Metering was originally part of the RECs.   I think it was part of the DNO business.   Ofgem were keen to introduce competition in metering as well so they were carved out, sold or closed down.   Some suppliers have their own metering businesses whilst others outsource.   As a domestic customer you still contact your supplier to get the meter fixed.   Large businesses can negotiate their own metering contracts so, if they change supplier, they just need to let them know who to appoint as the meter operator when they register the site.

[giropaul]

Returning to an earlier discussion about “ smart” meters

We have a smart meter, supported by promises
The house monitor failed - “it will be ££ for a replacement sir” (refused)
Bills arrive, using, presumably, the signals from the smart meter on the outside wall.
Man appears to read meter - I didn’t catch him this time.
More bills, using a reading, I guess from the smart meter on the wall
Correspondence from supplier that “ it is x time since you provided a reading “
Me - “ but you’re getting one from the smart meter, and billing me on these readings”
“ But we need a reading”
OK, easy enough, send reading. Am told that I am significantly in credit.

Today man arrives to read meter. He’s a lovely chap. I won’t use his exact terminology, but basically he says that the whole setup, across a lot of companies, is a total mess.
I said that I was pleased that he was making a living from the mess. He agreed, and said that he’d even put his price up.
Great chap, but what a fiasco of a system.

[Kim]

Bills arrive, using, presumably, the signals from the smart meter on the outside wall.

I made this assumption for a couple of years after Robin Hood installed our smart meters.  It was not correct.

Octopus eventually got them to work, which I could confirm on account of their website/API providing access to the data.


In normal countries, the DNO does the metering, has an incentive to specify equipment that actually works, and upgrades equipment with a fraction of the faffing about.  I'm betting some of them can even use the smart meters to monitor performance parameters of the distribution network when needed, rather than going and installing their own temporary monitoring hardware.

[Adam]

Octopus had also sent someone round to read the meter for me.  Even though they have all the data. 

[felstedrider]

There used to be a requirement to physically check the meter every couple of years.  It was definitely the case with gas due to the safety issues.  I’m not sure what happened to this with the smart meter rollout but it wouldn’t surprise me if the metering company didn’t have to eyeball them every now and again.

[hellymedic]

There used to be a requirement to physically check the meter every couple of years.  It was definitely the case with gas due to the safety issues.  I’m not sure what happened to this with the smart meter rollout but it wouldn’t surprise me if the metering company didn’t have to eyeball them every now and again.

I think they do.
They've definitely physically read my meter within the last year, during which time the outside display had been blank for several months and the smart meter had not been transmitting to the mothership.

[cygnet]

I moved 2 1/2 years ago. Smart meters were already fitted. No visits. (Both are internal, so they can't unless I let them in)

[robgul]

There used to be a requirement to physically check the meter every couple of years.  It was definitely the case with gas due to the safety issues.  I’m not sure what happened to this with the smart meter rollout but it wouldn’t surprise me if the metering company didn’t have to eyeball them every now and again.

That is the case according to the BG meter man that has been (once) since we had SMs in June 21.

[toontra]

Similar to solar FIT meters being physically inspected every couple of years.  Maybe also to check there's no fraudulent stuff going on

[andyoxon]

Interesting, I didn't realise that the govt is now receiving all SM data.  Why would this be?

These personal data will be shared with our data processors Microsoft and Amazon Web Services.
We do not allow third parties to use this data.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electricity-meter-data-collected-through-the-energy-bills-support-scheme-privacy-notice/use-of-electricity-meter-data-collected-through-the-energy-bills-support-scheme-privacy-notice

[Kim]

So they can use it to generate specious DWP and TV Licensing investigations, no doubt.

[felstedrider]

Says consumption data but not the level of granularity.  I can see why they would need ‘amount of energy used during Q1’ as they can validate the amount of subsidy paid to the supplier to be passed to the consumer.  For any smart meters settling half-hourly I can’t see the point of the extra data.

I suspect after the problems with spurious Covid claims they’re looking to be seen to be at least checking the amount being paid out actually tallies.

[andyoxon]

I read that by 2025 SM data will be collected every 30 mins, to allow national grid 'flexibility & efficiency'.

[cygnet]

So they can use it to generate specious DWP and TV Licensing investigations, no doubt.

TBF their current TVL "Revenue Collection Agent" licencee needs no excuse to generate specious "investigations"

[felstedrider]

I read that by 2025 SM data will be collected every 30 mins, to allow national grid 'flexibility & efficiency'.

Industrial and large business consumers are already half-hourly metered.   Domestic smart meters can be switched to half-hourly settlement by the supplier if the customer wants.   Domestic tariffs use an assumed consumption profile to calculate the cost of supply so, if your consumption pattern is flatter or uses much more off-peak power then you would be better off switching.   This is where tariffs like the Octopus Agile product come into their own.

Ofgem are pushing the switch to half-hourly settlement but the industry is resisting.   For a supplier it means going from 3 or 4 data points a year to 17,000+ for every single customer on supply.   I think current systems would likely fail.

On the flexibility point it will start to help.   Grid have been trialing domestic demand turn down for system peaks.   You can only get this to work if you can meter what is used or not used for the hour or two that they are interested in.   Useful, yes, and probably the way forward.   By 2025 ?   The industry has enough issues to deal with at the moment.

[felstedrider]

https://watt-logic.com/2023/02/14/smart-meters-stalled/

[FifeingEejit]

Interesting, I didn't realise that the govt is now receiving all SM data.  Why would this be?

These personal data will be shared with our data processors Microsoft and Amazon Web Services.
We do not allow third parties to use this data.

That could mean anything from being held on a non-private non-self-hosted cloud to something suspicious.

[ian]

Interesting, I didn't realise that the govt is now receiving all SM data.  Why would this be?

These personal data will be shared with our data processors Microsoft and Amazon Web Services.
We do not allow third parties to use this data.

That could mean anything from being held on a non-private non-self-hosted cloud to something suspicious.

It just means it's hosted by AWS or Microsoft. It would be a bit strange to run a scheme like this and not monitor it.

[andyoxon]

Octopus have said our Electricity meter is 'nearing the end of it's certification period', and so 'arrange a smart meter' install.  Any way to check the dates of meter certification?  Looks like the SM looms...

[Kim]

I'd have thought there'd be a sticker or something on the meter...

[lissotriton]

My meter has a sticker on, says certified 06/88. It was made by Ferranti, Dundee.
I've not been offered a smart meter yet, not sure if I have coverage here.

[andyoxon]

Thanks missed the brown sticker: Certified July 06.  So 20 yrs - 2026?  15yrs exp would have passed.

[giropaul]

Resurrection- of thread or Smartmeter  .
As reported previously, I’m regularly asked for a reading - I thought the idea was that this would be done. We also get a regular man in a car who reads them. He’s delightful, and very grateful that despite all the hype, his job is still essential. May it continue for him.
The next chapter is a letter that tells me that we need a new meter, the current one has been superseded. There’s a telephone number to ring.
Eventually getting through, I ask why a new meter is needed. The person doesn’t know, she just makes the bookings
Someone must be at home, for the whole of the day in effect.
I ask if the fitter will need access to the mains isolation switch. She doesn’t understand the question. I keep being told that the electricity in the house will be off, I get that, but does the isolation switch on the fuse box need to be off ( this requires access to a different part of the house. Again, she doesn’t recognise the question.

And - I bet the nice man in his logo’d car will return regularly.