Electricity Smart Meter

[rafletcher]

To replace a meter I would expect them to pull the main fuse on the incoming cable to the property, the one with a wire and lead seal (in our case) which is before the meter, and that of cousre is before the consumer unit/fuse box. So, the fuse box isolatioin is irrelevant.

[Little Jim]

I've not seen them doing a meter change recently but at out last house we had the meter moved and the man doing it just wore a pair of orange industrial Marigolds.  I did comment to him afterwards that he must need to keep his mind focused on the job.

[Kim]

Since we've lived in this house we've had a couple of replacement meters and a new cut-out installed.  For meter changes they just pull the cut-out fuse.  Indeed, when one of the meter tails came out of the bottom of the meter without unscrewing, I suggested that checking they were done up properly at the consumer unit end, and the engineer remarked that they weren't allowed to touch that side of things.

Replacing the cut-out is another matter entirely, with linesman's gloves and knowing where your limbs are taking the place of safe isolation.

[sojournermike]

Since we've lived in this house we've had a couple of replacement meters and a new cut-out installed.  For meter changes they just pull the cut-out fuse.  Indeed, when one of the meter tails came out of the bottom of the meter without unscrewing, I suggested that checking they were done up properly at the consumer unit end, and the engineer remarked that they weren't allowed to touch that side of things.

Replacing the cut-out is another matter entirely, with linesman's gloves and knowing where your limbs are taking the place of safe isolation.

When we had a cutout replaced they dug a hole in the garden and cut the incoming cable while they replaced the cutout in our house and next door - originally shared the supply and fuse, but now just the supply and have our own fuses. The supply runs from our cutout before the fuse, through the shared wall in the under stairs cupboard and into next doors fuse.

After doing all the work they went back to garden and reconnected the supply (with linesman’s gloves), filled in the hole and put the square of turf back very neatly.

[Kim]

Yes, they did that too (digging up the road and swapping our incoming cable to a different phase) after replacing the cutout did nothing to improve our low voltage problems.

I suppose you can get quite "it's only low voltage" about 240/415V if your day job also involves the spicier stuff with a nasty habit of jumping gaps.

[aidan.f]

I suppose you can get quite "it's only low voltage" about 240/415V if your day job also involves the spicier stuff with a nasty habit of jumping gaps.

When I worked in TV broadcasting our voltage defenitions were conservative by network power distribution standards. The 25 kV DC klystron supplies was alway referred to as a 'High Voltage'  - but then they contained some rather large capacitors and we did have take everything apart quite a bit to fix it. Isolation (apart from a big incoming 3 phase switch) was observing  the Voltmeters* then operating a row of moving earth connectors inside the cabinet to with a  window to confirm operation - and strategic points should be discharged.  Interlocked keys ensured cabinet front doors could only then be opened.

Around the back the panels were just secured with sheet metal screws. If you had to remove these a key in pocket was your security.

On occasions we had panels off and stood back (with the lights off) to see which part was flashing over (usually the filament transformer). A later improvement was a portable HV tester. Using that required defeating the interlocks and isolation of the knarly capacitors from the bit you thought could be faulty.

I have not yet mentioned the instrument of last resort - an earthing wand, this  was applied as a final check before approaching said capacitors with your spanners.

All this was spiced up by the Klystron collector cooling, a big copper slug in a water jacket sitting on top of the klystron assembly and boiling off the energy left over from electrons that had not done something useful generating 25 Kw of RF in the output cavity. The gravity return from the steam condensors reguarly used to leak into the cabinets until I did something imaginative with convoluted copper pipe.

*Occasionally the Klystron bias resistor chain would fail  - this also acted as HV capacitor bleed. If the HV meter did not drop you went for a long tea break before discharging the final few kV with the earth switch.

[mrcharly-YHT]

We finally have a smart meter.

Engineer who fitted it said that it uses longwave radio to communicate with the supplier - he had major problems at one customer site, couldn't get a signal (ironically, it was at one of the places on the island that has Gb broadband and a good 4G signal).

The little display is interesting; prompted us running around switching things on/off. Yes, we have a lot on standby, but they really don't consume much power.

We'd casually ignored the old fluorescent tubes; they turn out to be 90W each. 5 of them in the barn! Well, we were intending on replacing them anyway . . .

[Feanor]

Smart Meters call home using the DCC network.
https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/
( The DCC was set up by the gubbinsment to centralise smart-meter communications to overcome the old proprietery systems operated by individual energy providers, in order to help make switching suppliers work whilst maintaining the Smart capability.)

They contract out the actual comms to two suppliers, one in the North, the other in the Central and Southern Communication Areas:
https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html

In the North, Arquiva (the same company that runs the UHF TV transmitters) uses the Long-Range Radio system, which is UHF at frequencies 412-414 MHz and 453-455 MHz. The Smart Meter Tx has an output power of 1W. Here's an example of the kind of thing that's being used (P7 gives the WAN spec):
https://www.edmi-meters.com/europe/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/EDMI-Variant-450-DB-Comms-Hub-User-Manual-v1.2.pdf
(The Dual-Band that's mentioned refers to the Home-Area Network, which can operate at 2 different frequencies to overcome range issues due to thick walls etc. Nothing to do with the Wide Area Network.)

I don't know if Arquiva are running this entirely out of their existing TV UHF sites, or if they have added infill masts.
But I think your UHF TV coverage will be a better guide than 3G coverage.

In the South, Telefonica (O2) provide the comms over 2G/3G.

In both cases, the meters operate in a Mesh mode, so that if one is out of range of the main infrastructure, it can pass it via others in the mesh.

[aidan.f]

When I was working for Arqiva* I got involved in some smart metering design work. It's been a while but IIRC the broadcast site are not used, as with kilowatts of transmission there are problems receiving low level meter signals.
*When we first got that name the posties used to ask if we could spell properly.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Smart Meters call home using the DCC network.
https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/
( The DCC was set up by the gubbinsment to centralise smart-meter communications to overcome the old proprietery systems operated by individual energy providers, in order to help make switching suppliers work whilst maintaining the Smart capability.)

They contract out the actual comms to two suppliers, one in the North, the other in the Central and Southern Communication Areas:
https://www.smartme.co.uk/smets-2.html

In the North, Arquiva (the same company that runs the UHF TV transmitters) uses the Long-Range Radio system, which is UHF at frequencies 412-414 MHz and 453-455 MHz. The Smart Meter Tx has an output power of 1W. Here's an example of the kind of thing that's being used (P7 gives the WAN spec):
https://www.edmi-meters.com/europe/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/EDMI-Variant-450-DB-Comms-Hub-User-Manual-v1.2.pdf
(The Dual-Band that's mentioned refers to the Home-Area Network, which can operate at 2 different frequencies to overcome range issues due to thick walls etc. Nothing to do with the Wide Area Network.)

I don't know if Arquiva are running this entirely out of their existing TV UHF sites, or if they have added infill masts.
But I think your UHF TV coverage will be a better guide than 3G coverage.

In the South, Telefonica (O2) provide the comms over 2G/3G.

In both cases, the meters operate in a Mesh mode, so that if one is out of range of the main infrastructure, it can pass it via others in the mesh.

Lack of smart meters and 'different' geography (some houses are on little islands, facing the sea) will be causing problems.

AFAIK, OVO/SSEN are installing the meters according to whoever shouts loudest, not according to proximity/signal range of the masts. If they planned it, then coverage wouldn't be a problem.

As it is, some places are getting new smart meters, but there isn't any direct or mesh connection.

[Mrs Pingu]

Got my Octopus mini this week. Just set it up and now I should be able to inspect my gas readings every 30m and my electricity readings every 50 femtoseconds (slight exaggeration there)
https://octopus.energy/blog/octopus-home-mini/#:~:text=from%20your%20phone.-,The%20Octopus%20Home%20Mini%20is%20a%20brand%20new%2C%20cutting%2Dedge,gas%20consumption%20every%2030%20minutes.

[Sergeant Pluck]

Does anyone know if smart meters can now be fitted in blocks of flats where the meters for each floor are all next to each other in  a shared meter cupboard?

[Feanor]

Does anyone know if smart meters can now be fitted in blocks of flats where the meters for each floor are all next to each other in  a shared meter cupboard?

Can't think of any reason why not.
Was it historically a problem?
What exactly was the problem?
Was it just a case of physical space?

[Sergeant Pluck]

At first, I couldn’t remember how I had acquired the notion that one can’t have them in a communal area, but a quick search has reminded me that it arose from something on the Octopus site:

https://octopus.energy/help-and-faqs/articles/what-is-a-smart-meter-and-can-i-have-one/#

Although smart meters will work in most properties, there are a few factors that may mean we can't install one for you just yet:
If you live in a flat with a meter in a communal area (i.e not in your own flat)

I was hoping things had moved on but clearly not.

[SoreTween]

Although smart meters will work in most properties, there are a few factors that may mean we can't install one for you just yet:
If you live in a flat with a meter in a communal area (i.e not in your own flat)

I was hoping things had moved on but clearly not.

I wonder why. I can see that you'd not be able to have a readout widget due to distances but backhaul from the meter to the mothership, I can't think of reason for that not working.
Are the two inseparable now? They can't 'sell' a smart meter without a readout due to customer expectation created through years of slightly tenuous marketing, even to an intelligent customer who can understand the distinction?

[Canardly]

Splitting landlord and tenant areas may be difficult if the building is not wired accordingly and signals seems to be an issue depending upon the design of the flats. Service charges with leaseholders may be another complication.
https://forum.ovoenergy.com/smart-meters-136/smart-meter-in-block-of-flats-is-it-possible-to-have-one-fitted-408

[Sergeant Pluck]

In our case, the meters for each floor (3 flats per floor) are all in (accessible) cupboards on the landing. I can’t see signal strength being an issue. Power for the lift, fire alarms and landing lights are on a separate meter, billing for that is via the service charge and split equally.

I hope that as time goes on there will be solutions to this.

[numbnuts]

I'm in a small block of flats 9 in all, the only trouble I've had was trying to find which room was best.
It would not work in the lounge or bedroom, but it is quite happy in the kitchen by the window

[SoreTween]

In our case, the meters for each floor (3 flats per floor) are all in (accessible) cupboards on the landing. I can’t see signal strength being an issue. Power for the lift, fire alarms and landing lights are on a separate meter, billing for that is via the service charge and split equally.

I hope that as time goes on there will be solutions to this.

Your earlier quote says 'may', it does not say absolutely cannot.  Reading the Ovo forum linked by Canardly the issues are:

• Meters sometimes in a basement with no signal
• Tennants may not have access to the meter space
• If metering gas as well then sometimes separation is a problem as gas smart meters are low power radio linked to the electricity meter

So on the face of it Ovo should be able to give you a smartmeter and would attempt an install.  I'll be surprised in Octopus cannot but best you talk to a human to make the booking.

[Mrs Pingu]

If you are with Octopus try giving them a message on Twitter, I've had better comms with their team on there than by email.

[sojournermike]

If you are with Octopus try giving them a message on Twitter, I've had better comms with their team on there than by email.

Indeed, the CEO is very accessible

Mike

[MikeFromLFE]

My daughter’s block of flats - converted factory - has a ground floor room full of smart meters. The room has a common key. She hasn't got a display and I doubt one would work at the distance.
She's with Octopus

[quixoticgeek]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-65544654

Some are blaming this on the smart meters. It feels more like the company's internals are just fucked up.

J

[Kim]

Got my Octopus mini this week. Just set it up and now I should be able to inspect my gas readings every 30m and my electricity readings every 50 femtoseconds (slight exaggeration there)
https://octopus.energy/blog/octopus-home-mini/#:~:text=from%20your%20phone.-,The%20Octopus%20Home%20Mini%20is%20a%20brand%20new%2C%20cutting%2Dedge,gas%20consumption%20every%2030%20minutes.

A slightly classier bodge than my arduino and a lump of blutack.  Functionality that really ought to be built into the meter, but there's far too much inertia in the industry for that to happen any time soon.  Crucially, it should allow for more meaningful analysis than the instantaneous power and daily/monthly totals you get from the silly display units.

It would be nice if it could speak MQTT or HTTP or something locally instead of sending everything to The Man, maybe they'll add that later.

[mzjo]

Yes, they did that too (digging up the road and swapping our incoming cable to a different phase) after replacing the cutout did nothing to improve our low voltage problems.

I suppose you can get quite "it's only low voltage" about 240/415V if your day job also involves the spicier stuff with a nasty habit of jumping gaps.

I don't know about UK but in France electrical "habilitation" is low voltage ("basse tension") which is up to 1000v and high voltage ("haute tension") which is everything over. Basse tension doesn't mean it won't kill you if you get it wrong, just that the rules about how you do it safely and how much care you take to keep innocent bystanders well out of harm's way are different. The fact of being habilitated high voltage doesn't give you any right to interven on low voltage! The joker in the pack is (or at least was when I did my habilitation tests 8 years ago) was the habilitation for solar panels which has elements of low and high voltage in the same package. (Habilitations vary in purpose, intervening to repair or replace individual components, installing new stuff under the control of a more qualified engineer or being the top man on a new installation).