Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 856949 times)

nicknack

  • Hornblower
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1775 on: 01 November, 2011, 11:16:20 am »
I can't either.
There's no vibrations, but wait.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1776 on: 01 November, 2011, 11:26:23 am »
In this way new words are created - a new-for-me-ism!

Funny you should say that - oranges were originally noranges, doncha know (from the Spanish "naranja").

I wonder if "new phemism" counts as an eggcorn? Hmm, maybe not.

d.
And adders were nadders, nicknames were eeknames, and doubtless many others.

Though I thought oranges were named after the town in the south of France. Maybe not.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1777 on: 01 November, 2011, 11:27:13 am »
The pronounced H in hotel and similar words derived from French is quite new in that there are probably still speakers alive who, correctly, wouldn't pronounce it.

It's only correct if you're speaking French. We'd be in a right old pickle if we decided we had to pronounce all the English words that are derived from a foreign language (all of them?) in the manner of that language. Hotel, when spoken in English is not French, it is English, and to not pronounce the aitch is just poncy.

No, the old-fashioned English way of pronouncing them was sans H, and that goes back way beyond modern French.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1778 on: 01 November, 2011, 12:37:05 pm »
Yes, but the pronunciation of initial H in words which came into English via French has never been consistent. Initial H of any Latin word would originally have been pronounced. French dropped it, but if it came into English when Latin was still commonly known among the literate, Latin might have been used as a model even if the word came via French, & the H pronounced.

There are some words which came into English from French which are derived from old Germanic words, where the French silent H was pronounced in the original, & has always been pronounced in related English words.

We could either drop the H from all words we got via French where the H was silent when we got it, or pronounce it in all cases where it was originally, i.e. every one. I prefer the latter. It requires much less modification of the language, as there are far more words where we reintroduced the H long before anyone now alive can remember than there are where it was silent within living memory.

BTW, hostage is a word where English added an H which was not in the original. If we're going to insist on original pronunciation we should drop it.
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Pingu

  • Put away those fiery biscuits!
  • Mrs Pingu's domestique
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1779 on: 01 November, 2011, 01:13:58 pm »
This sounds ghastly to me:

Quote
This list will require to be amended...

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1780 on: 01 November, 2011, 01:19:54 pm »
In hotels in Essex, we drop the h, the t and the l. It's just vowel sounds with pursed lips at the end of the word - possibly with a hint of w.
Quote from: Dez
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1781 on: 01 November, 2011, 02:42:59 pm »
Yes, but the pronunciation of initial H in words which came into English via French has never been consistent...
We could either drop the H from all words we got via French where the H was silent when we got it, or pronounce it in all cases where it was originally...

That's a bit like arguing for a consistent pronunciation of --ough.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1782 on: 01 November, 2011, 02:48:44 pm »
Quote
can never keep a straight face when I hear an American pronounce "herbs" like the French herbes.

Me too! For some reason it's sounds far more quaint and affected than just about any other american usage. I wonder why this is?

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1783 on: 01 November, 2011, 03:12:21 pm »
We could either drop the H from all words we got via French where the H was silent when we got it, or pronounce it in all cases where it was originally, i.e. every one.
That line of argument is the error. English does not appear to submit to such logic. In trying to change it to make one thing consistent, you usually create another inconsistency somewhere else.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1784 on: 01 November, 2011, 03:21:44 pm »
I like the way the French (usually) sound the 'silent' letters whenever it results in a better flow. that seems like a better rule than the mess we have.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1785 on: 01 November, 2011, 05:01:21 pm »
But effectively we do have a version of the same rule/practice by alternating 'a' with 'an' according to the following word beginning with a consonant or vowel.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1786 on: 01 November, 2011, 07:43:33 pm »
Quote
can never keep a straight face when I hear an American pronounce "herbs" like the French herbes.

Me too! For some reason it's sounds far more quaint and affected than just about any other american usage. I wonder why this is?

Perhaps it's combination of "erb" being a funny sounding word, juxtaposition of high class associations of french cuisine and herbs with the low class H dropping, and "de erb" when said in an West Indian accent.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1787 on: 01 November, 2011, 07:58:06 pm »
I can never keep a straight face when I hear an American pronounce "herbs" like the French herbes.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/9IzDbNFDdP4&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/9IzDbNFDdP4&rel=1</a>

:D

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1788 on: 10 November, 2011, 02:46:14 pm »
have just explained to colleagues the difference between 'barter' and 'haggle'

Pingu

  • Put away those fiery biscuits!
  • Mrs Pingu's domestique
    • the Igloo
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1789 on: 14 November, 2011, 02:21:24 pm »
Suction as a verb  ???

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1790 on: 14 November, 2011, 02:31:34 pm »
I hate it when the BBC weather reporters give an estimate of the temperature for the forthcoming
weather.

"...and the temperature will be nineteen to twenty two degrees".

Why can't they say...

"...and the temperature will be between nineteen and twenty two degrees".

Very petty, I know, but it just makes me cringe.

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1791 on: 14 November, 2011, 04:47:52 pm »
Worst than that, I've heard weatherpersons referring to "hot" and "cold" temperatures.
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1792 on: 16 November, 2011, 12:36:04 pm »
Quote
Meanwhile a group of MPs called for a public consultation on how to reduce the harms from smoking in cars.

This doesn't make me cringe, but it does make me wonder how it came about. Is it a simple typo, a careless editing from "harmful effects" or is it a deliberate use of harm as a countable noun?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1793 on: 16 November, 2011, 12:40:48 pm »
A few paragraphs further on, we read:

Quote
The group concluded that the government should conduct a systematic review of the evidence of the harms of cmoking in cars and the effects on adults as well as children.

So I presume we are talking about the harm of smocking in cars. It would be nasty to get a needle in the eye.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1794 on: 16 November, 2011, 04:13:09 pm »
I saw this in a BBC news website article t'other day:

Quote
Mr Shkaplerov and fellow Russian Anatoly Ivanishin, 42, are making their first maiden space voyages

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15715260
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1795 on: 16 November, 2011, 11:00:12 pm »
A maiden at 42, wasn't there a film with a title like that?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1796 on: 17 November, 2011, 11:16:27 am »
While perusing car insurance comparison sites, I came across this gem:

You won't find this price cheaper anywhere else.

 ??? :facepalm:



Rhys W

  • I'm single, bilingual
    • Cardiff Ajax
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1797 on: 21 November, 2011, 12:37:19 pm »
"Top draw"

Unless used in praising the high quality of say, an artist's sketchbook.

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1798 on: 24 November, 2011, 08:23:53 pm »
So, do you start a sentence with "So"?
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

eck

  • Gonna ride my bike until I get home...
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1799 on: 24 November, 2011, 08:37:16 pm »
And what's wrong with that?
It's a bit weird, but actually quite wonderful.