Hi-viz

[Wendy]

I think I should differentiate between Hi-Viz (flouro yellow/green) and Scotchlite reflective.

Strictly speaking, hiviz is the combination of both fluo and retro-reflectives.  In theory one should compensate for the weaknesses of the other, but there are plenty of common situations where neither work well.

My own experience of driving round here at night is that Scotchlite, in headlights, is brighter than any rear LED light.  It's more noticeable at any distance amd any angle.  

That might be the case in your experience, but have you seen said cyclists with modern super bright LEDs?  I think that a proper light will so seriously outcompete hiviz that the hiviz will no longer be visible.

Retroflectives (aka scotchlite) are also not visible at any distance and any angle.  One example where they are rendered useless is when a driver is waiting at the minor road in a T-junction, and a cyclist comes along the main road.  Because there's no light shining from the driver towards the cyclist and inline with the driver and the cyclist, there's no return from the retro-reflector. 

[RW]

Yellow's the last colour people lose before going blind - I read that in some research findings on bus design & colour of hand rails.  Of course yellow's not much cop if you're riding through fields of sunflowers or OSR.

[Wendy]

It's also useless without UV, and turns the same colour as the road under sodium streetlights.

[simonp]

I was wearing my yellow Freestyle jacket the one time I've been in a SMIDSY.  Visibility was perfect and it was daylight.

There is research that suggests cyclists having "the kit" (this includes HiVis, helmets, and lycra) makes drivers "more confident" that the behaviour of the cyclist will be predictable, and this will probably lead to less caution.

[LEE]

Yellow's the last colour people lose before going blind - I read that in some research findings on bus design & colour of hand rails.  Of course yellow's not much cop if you're riding through fields of sunflowers or OSR.

Now you tell me

[Kim]

It's all about the conditions.  Fluoro's probably beneficial if it's like this:



As I posted above, those sort of conditions aren't actually that common, unless you're commuting in winter.

[oncemore]

I simply reckon that 1. I notice a cyclist (or a pedestrian or a road-worker) in full yellow/scotchlite safety jacket further away/sooner than one in dark clothing in dark/gloomy conditions and 2. if I am taken out then the initial reaction of the first cop on the scene is less likely to be "serve 'im right" if I have attempted to be "visible". This reaction will work its way right through to Court/insurance judgements.

I used to work outdoors p/t for a major retailer - they supplied GOOD jackets and for reasons now forgotten I still have the jacket and I wear it all winter. When it wears out I'll splash 25 quid and buy another.

It has the added bonus that at 7 a.m. it makes me look like a poor old bloke who still has to go to work and can only afford a bicycle. This I think tends to attract sympathy rather than anti-cyclist hatred.

[Jaded]

Does it make you notice non-hi-viz people less though?

[oncemore]

Yes, I think it does. I do not see them until I am nearer. And before you ask, I wear prescription lenses for riding/driving (altho' without I can still meet the standard driving test sight requirements - which are very low IMO). I do however have poor night vision - I doubt that I'm the only road user who does and I've never heard of any available corrective. I have avoided driving at night other than on lit urban roads for quite a few years.

[Jaded]

Night vision declines with age too, but it isn't tested for, afaik.

[teethgrinder]

I used to commute by cycle wearing a hi-viz work coat, with the reflective strips etc. It got some respect from drivers, but got even even more when I stuck a 12"x3" blue patch on the back.

Sounds like a good experiment.
I also have plastic Bikebin panniers on my hybrid, which look like they probably contain police-y sort of things. Maybe I should stich some police-y looking reflective livery on those too.

[EdinburghFixed]

Yes, I think it does. I do not see them until I am nearer.

Indeed, but isn't this the great question- Joe Public is motoring along when he sees a cyclist 30 seconds up the road. Superficially you'd think this is an improvement over him seeing someone 15 seconds up the road, but I'm not sure how it's guaranteed (or even likely) to lead to the driver making a better choice about how to pass.

To me it's just the same as fitting extra rear lights. Yes, the more photons are streaming from the back of your bike, the further away someone will be able to see you, and the more you'll stand out from anything competing in the background. But, provided you are visible from sufficient distance I'm not sure that increasing photons will actually cause the driver to behave differently, which is what we're really after.

Unlike Wendy I agree that Scotchlite can be very effective - even in the presence of an uber light - because it reflects pure white and so causes uncertainty and fear in the approaching driver. I don't think it's necessary, but I don't think it hurts, and some kind of scotchlite patch on a whip extension 3 feet to the right would definitely be on my test list for a video camera night overtaking study if one was ever done.

[Jaded]

Reflexives only work if the car lights are on. In conditions when light levels vary considerably rear lights are better than hi-vis 

[Wendy]

Hiviz with a bright torch pointed at it:




The same but now totally invisible hiviz behind my bike light, still with the torch pointed at it:



The light is active, visible all the time, and works from multiple angles, whilst the hiviz does none of these.  The light is also *much* better, and much more visible.

I don't expect any material difference if this headlight was replaced by a modern bright tailight.  Weak old technology bicycle lights, fair enough, you might see reflectives behind that, but I doubt it'll make any difference to driver behaviour anyway.

[MattH]

I used to commute by cycle wearing a hi-viz work coat, with the reflective strips etc. It got some respect from drivers, but got even even more when I stuck a 12"x3" blue patch on the back.

Sounds like a good experiment.

I think something like this would help to identify us to each other on commutes...



The reflective print adds £3.31 to the cost of the vest at hivis.net

[perpetual dan]

It's all about the conditions.  Fluoro's probably beneficial if it's like this:

...

As I posted above, those sort of conditions aren't actually that common, unless you're commuting in winter.

Or (the fog, not the snow) if you live up the first big hill damp air off the sea hits. Not being able to see the end of the street is routine here.

I have a two colour fluoro + reflective vest for these days. The rest of the time I go for mainly red tops and hi-viz ankle bands (movement helps I think) and keep the black for off road.
A decent light helps as Wendy demonstrates, but I think decent involves a broad beam and largish surface area at least as much as brightness. I run a separate light for seeing with on dark roads.

[mattc]

Yes, I think it does. I do not see them until I am nearer.

Indeed, but isn't this the great question- Joe Public is motoring along when he sees a cyclist 30 seconds up the road. Superficially you'd think this is an improvement over him seeing someone 15 seconds up the road, but I'm not sure how it's guaranteed (or even likely) to lead to the driver making a better choice about how to pass.

To me it's just the same as fitting extra rear lights. Yes, the more photons are streaming from the back of your bike, the further away someone will be able to see you, and the more you'll stand out from anything competing in the background. But, provided you are visible from sufficient distance I'm not sure that increasing photons will actually cause the driver to behave differently, which is what we're really after.

Another good post. How do we know that being "more visible" will make us safer?

Motorists drive into each other every day/night - despite having loads of lights and travelling at similar speeds to each other.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Hiviz with a bright torch pointed at it:

It's visible, but looking at the photo I didn't actively see it until I compared with the second photo to see what wasn't on that. It's not something that looks like a bike or indeed anything particular a driver should take notice of - it looks to me like a random bit of reflective road sign. Could be a reflective advert, for instance. This, I think, is a good argument for lights!

I also agree with the other point above about visibility and behaviour - I think there is some effect, but it's not always at all clear cut.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I think I've posted this 3 times.

HiViz yellow or orange has a role in foggy conditions.

One foggy morning (daylight) I could see a yellow shape coming towards me. As it got closer, I saw it was a bloke on a scooter, with his lights on. The important thing to note is that the yellow jacket showed up in the fog *before* the lights. These were modern, large, bright scooter lights.

In clear dark conditions, of course a headlight is going to help more. Apart from visibility from the side . . .

[Kim]

It's visible, but looking at the photo I didn't actively see it until I compared with the second photo to see what wasn't on that. It's not something that looks like a bike or indeed anything particular a driver should take notice of - it looks to me like a random bit of reflective road sign. Could be a reflective advert, for instance. This, I think, is a good argument for lights!

The great thing about retroreflectives (and indeed fluro) is that they're lightweight and two-dimensional.  Which means you can put them in places where it's difficult or largely impractical to fit lights.  Helmets, gloves, arms, legs, ankles, pedals, cranks, tyres, rims for example - places with a distinctive motion pattern that not only identifies you as a human on a bicycle, but can usefully convey some idea about what you're intending to do next.  Not just hand signals - changes in pedalling motion can be equally informative.

Not the same as lights for being seen (though the wobble of a steering-mounted front light has a similarly distinctive pattern), but I still believe they can be genuinely useful in some circumstances.  The distinctive sinusoidal motion of a bike ninja's remaining pedal reflector often makes them apparent as a cyclist even against background clutter.  That effect's not to be sneezed at.

[mattc]

The distinctive sinusoidal motion of a bike ninja's remaining pedal reflector often makes them apparent as a cyclist even against background clutter.  That effect's not to be sneezed at.

They should put it in the Highway Code:

Look out for bright objects with a sinusoidal motion

[Wendy]

To repeat, being seen as a cyclist is not necessarily a good thing for our safety.

[Kim]

To repeat, being seen as a cyclist is not necessarily a good thing for our safety.

Fair point.  It's better than being seen as a piece of furniture, though.

[Wendy]

Street furniture?  I feel that's something drivers are much more likely to take avoiding action around than cyclists, surely?

I want to look like something unknown, with lights bright enough to leave drivers thinking stuff like "What if that's an HGV trailer?".  That or look a little like a policeman as posted above.  These are all things drivers give more time and space.

[Kim]

Street furniture?  I feel that's something drivers are much more likely to take avoiding action around than cyclists, surely?

Well any random stationary object.  But you can't win that one, because as all drivers know, a bicycle is a stationary object of zero width.