what 3 words

[Jaded]

When I said it had a roundabout, I may have mispoken.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Sorry for possibly being dim, but why not? What's the point in sharing a photo without revealing its location?

"Hey, YACF:  Here's a photo of the widget on my $expensive_new_ebike ..is the metal bit supposed to be loose like that?"

AKA: "Badly locked $expensive_new_ebike at these coordinates"


Or just letting your abusive family / stalker /etc  know where you live now because it's in the EXIF of all the in-progress photos of the art project you've been working on.


Personally, I'd like a geofence option.  If I'm on a cycle tour or collecting evidence of fly-tipping or water leaks or something, the EXIF location data is useful.  But if I'm at home, it probably isn't.

But you've got your phone no. and/or email address on the start-up screen of your GPS. I know you have because it was you who alerted me to the possibility of doing this. Which means anyone who finds your Garmin could not only trace routes back to your house but also has your phone no and/or email and could, if they so wish, send you abusive messages and/or hack your ID. But you said, on this very point, that "most people are honest", which I agree with but seems to contradict your first point above.

Obviously no one intends to lose their Garmin. But then no one's intending to stumble across hare coursers and badger baiters either.

[FifeingEejit]

Wouldn't it be more that the chances of a garmin finder being dishonest are relativley low, while persons actively scoping out bikes to nick from GPS coords in publicly published photos are 100% likely to be neer dae weels?

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[Cudzoziemiec]

That plus the chances of any individual finding the Garmin are random, whereas if you're a scrote looking for bikes to steal, you might be hanging out on cycle-tastic places to find them. There have been cases of people being followed home from trail centres too and later burgled.

[JellyLegs]

I started reading this thread from the beginning and soon got incredibly frustrated.  As a member of the emergency services, W3W just gives me an EXTRA tool in my toolbox of lifesaving kit.  I couldn’t give a flying duck if it’s proprietary, nobody is saying you have to use it above all other methods of locating yourself if you object to that.  I am happy to use lat and lon if you have them, or 12 figure grid refs, or “1km south of High Roding on the B184” or SarLoc or local knowledge or just about any other method.  All methods have pros and cons.  Control room staff need to dispatch the right resources as fast as possible, they don’t have time to teach someone how to read a map if they don’t already know and if you go with “I am in a field 1km east of the junction of the A12 and A120” then you could be in either of two areas several miles apart.  You would be amazed sometimes how unaware of their location some people are even before the panic of an emergency situation.  I recall one incident we went to where all the caller knew was they were somewhere on the B184, had gone through town 1 but not yet reached town 5 some 20 miles south.  They had absolutely no clue if they had passed various landmarks or gone through Towns 2, 3 or 4 on route so it took the resources of 6 fire engines about 20 minutes to try and locate them.

[Kim]

I don't think any of us would object to "Emergency services now accept W3W locations, in addition to grid refs, addresses, postcodes, etc".  That's entirely reasonable, as it seems to be gaining enough popularity to be a thing people might have available (because it's obviously useful for programming satnavs and addressing parcels), and could therefore save lives.

The objection is the emergency services being complicit in promoting it as if it's the only/best way to obtain your location using a smartphone.  That's actively dangerous, because it's not actually a very good way of doing it, for all the reasons discussed.  Which raises the question of why they're doing it.

I'd guess one or more of:
-Emergency services managed by people who don't know anything about map coordinates, smartphones etc. and think it's a genuinely good idea.
-Tactical decision that all publicity is good publicity, especially if it might make people more prepared for emergencies or result in more funding.
-W3W marketing department writing press releases without sufficient emergency services input.
-Bad journalism.
-Financial shenannigans.

[Diver300]

Before W3W, I once tried to report an accident and the emergency operator couldn't accept either lat/long or the A and B numbers of the roads involved. They wanted the road names or the postcode. The roads involved changed names several times along their length, and their names were quite common so were repeated in lots of places, and I didn't know their names at every place, even though I drove them quite often. I found it very stressful.

The problem with W3W is when emergency operators won't accept other methods and demand that someone in crisis downloads an app, and then tells the app the numbers that they could have told the emergency services. It's a non-trivial download, that users may have to pay for the data for, when actually anyone can go to the W3W website and convert any lat/long, postcode, address etc to a W3W code.

There are also systems built into any phone that should allow the emergency services to see where a smartphone call is coming from, but those don't seem to be used.

It's good if W3W can be added to existing methods of location, but it seems to be being added at the expense of other systems.

[Polar Bear]

I have just been reminding myself just how good OS Locate is as an app.  The best bit for me is just how large the lat long numbers are and how big the compass is.  A brilliant tool for me.

[grams]

If I were an emergency services operator I would mostly be outraged that the system to get the device location to the operator’s screen automatically doesn’t function. Getting excited about a total hack seems perverse.

[quixoticgeek]

If I were an emergency services operator I would mostly be outraged that the system to get the device location to the operator’s screen automatically doesn’t function. Getting excited about a total hack seems perverse.

Agreed.

J

[MikeFromLFE]

The objection is the emergency services being complicit in promoting it as if it's the only/best way to obtain your location using a smartphone.  That's actively dangerous, because it's not actually a very good way of doing it, for all the reasons discussed.  Which raises the question of why they're doing it.
.

This
A thousand times


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[Cudzoziemiec]

If I were an emergency services operator I would mostly be outraged that the system to get the device location to the operator’s screen automatically doesn’t function. Getting excited about a total hack seems perverse.

And for landlines too, I'd hope.

[Kim]

If I were an emergency services operator I would mostly be outraged that the system to get the device location to the operator’s screen automatically doesn’t function. Getting excited about a total hack seems perverse.

And for landlines too, I'd hope.

For landlines (and now VOIP, if it's registered for the purpose) it should just be a database lookup.  Much less technically involved than getting an arbitrary location from the handset or its user, and AIUI something they've been able to do for yonks.  Historically when I've had to call the emergency services, I've done so from a landline when available for this reason.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've never called emergency services from a landline but have known a neighbour call the police about some "rowdy teenagers" on the stairwell and give our address. First we knew was the police knocking on our door (later we saw, and smelt, the evidence).

[Jaded]

There are also systems built into any phone that should allow the emergency services to see where a smartphone call is coming from, but those don't seem to be used.

Indeed.

Hooefully Apple and Google are working at making this an emergency thing (as they do with emergency calls already) and the w3w attempted money making machine will attract less noise.

I was passing a Scottish Water establishment thing the other day and was dismayed to see “WTW” on the information board. It was confusing as there weren’t three words following it. Until I realised it was a Water Treatment Works…

[FifeingEejit]

Mountain rescue use SARloc, they regularly rip the piss out of W3W...

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[De Sisti]

I hope I'm not the only one, but I just don't understand it. Looked at my own address, and it said: 'bollocks, knob, cheese'.

I still don't get it.

[JellyLegs]

To try and answer a few of the above comments

1 Certainly for my service, we are all taught how to read maps, use lat/Lon and grid references.  You want to pass me a national grid reference such as that returned by SarLoc and I will get my firefighters to you. W3W is just an alternative and won’t even be mentioned in a 999 call unless you are unable to locate yourself when it might be suggested as a possible solution.

2 Yes, it’s a closed commercial system and their marketing tries to make a problem where one shouldn’t exist in the UK as we have perfectly good mapping / addressing systems already, if only people knew how to use them.  I dislike that too.

3 There are lots of claims out there about automatic phone location.  Only handsets sold after March 2022 have to offer the capability of sending handset derived location data to the emergency services though many did before this.  It requires an SMS or data connection afaik.  It’s a European directive that we make use of this I think so … brexit….hmmm who knows.

Also it will no doubt require systems upgrades in control centres that will be expensive and probably unfunded so may take time.

4 W3W has its technical failings but they are mostly irrelevant to UK emergency service use.  I don’t care that they can’t locate the South Pole properly, I won’t be going to a fire there.  I don’t care their 3m squares are smaller than the accuracy of most phone GPS systems so the same spot can give multiple addresses.  I will find you from within 25m.  I don’t care that their “unchanging” claim re addresses is crap.  Plate tectonics and earthquakes have little impact on locating an RTC in the UK. The one I do care about is the evidence that in a few cases their closed algorithm has assigned almost identical 3 word addresses to geographically very close locations.

5 I don’t know why my service decided against SarLoc but it was looked at.  Possibly just lost out to a slicker marketing campaign as a quick Google found minimal info on SarLoc.  Possibly just want to use W3W internally for a slightly wider use case than SarLoc supports.

6 The benefit of W3W imho is that it he majority of people who wouldn’t know an Easting from their elbow find it easy to use.  No need to know about grid refs or gps coordinates.  No long string of numbers with decimals, commas and negatives.  Yes, words can be misheard / misread but so can numbers and phonetic alphabet ( even B Bertie A Apple versions) get spellings across without confusion. That’s a failure of our education and a failure of the current methods to make themselves more relevant so that people see the benefit of learning them.  That’s only going to get worse with phone navigation making paper maps a thing of the past for many.

Anyway, having just read the latest update on automatic phone location, hopefully we don’t throw that out with the brexit bath water and it makes W3W a historical irrelevance inside a year or two.  Then all I need to worry about is what Google / FruitCo do with the knowledge that I called 999 from a particular location last Tuesday.

[JellyLegs]

Before W3W, I once tried to report an accident and the emergency operator couldn't accept either lat/long or the A and B numbers of the roads involved. They wanted the road names or the postcode. The roads involved changed names several times along their length, and their names were quite common so were repeated in lots of places, and I didn't know their names at every place, even though I drove them quite often. I found it very stressful.

The problem with W3W is when emergency operators won't accept other methods and demand that someone in crisis downloads an app, and then tells the app the numbers that they could have told the emergency services. It's a non-trivial download, that users may have to pay for the data for, when actually anyone can go to the W3W website and convert any lat/long, postcode, address etc to a W3W code.

There are also systems built into any phone that should allow the emergency services to see where a smartphone call is coming from, but those don't seem to be used.

It's good if W3W can be added to existing methods of location, but it seems to be being added at the expense of other systems.

I often get call sheets saying “RTC A12 J15-16 Southbound” or “Fire beside B1256 1km from Stebbing turn off”.  I can’t see why they wouldn’t accept the road numbers. Same goes for the lat Lon although it would be a rarity to be offered that in a 999 call I suspect.

I would fully agree that nobody should be forced to download an app but I don’t in reality believe that happens either.  Control rooms default to normal addresses and if they can’t locate you using that will despatch a best guess set of resources and then work with you to locate you using a variety of methods from local knowledge to technology, of which W3W is only one option you may be offered.

[quixoticgeek]

I would fully agree that nobody should be forced to download an app but I don’t in reality believe that happens either.  Control rooms default to normal addresses and if they can’t locate you using that will despatch a best guess set of resources and then work with you to locate you using a variety of methods from local knowledge to technology, of which W3W is only one option you may be offered.

I've called in with lay/long. It was for a heath fire near Canterbury a few years back. I used latlong as my etrex at the time was set to that mode. And I couldn't change it and talk to 999 at the same time.

The one I do care about is the evidence that in a few cases their closed algorithm has assigned almost identical 3 word addresses to geographically very close locations.

This was the big thing that changed my view. If you read back you'll see I was a great fan of w3w originally. But I am decidedly less impressed now I'm seeing more of it.

The fact they also have too much similarity on some words just feels like bad design.

I find myself wondering if there.their.they're is valid... Or check.cheque.czech...

J

[FifeingEejit]

Hononyms vary by dialect, language and accent.

I'm sure for many here doon and dune sound the same, where as for me the Gaelic infusion of dzh into Scots and then SSE means they don't.

This seems to be one of the causes of W3W seemingly putting people in the North sea when actually they are up Ben ledi.

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[JellyLegs]

I would fully agree that nobody should be forced to download an app but I don’t in reality believe that happens either.  Control rooms default to normal addresses and if they can’t locate you using that will despatch a best guess set of resources and then work with you to locate you using a variety of methods from local knowledge to technology, of which W3W is only one option you may be offered.

I've called in with lay/long. It was for a heath fire near Canterbury a few years back. I used latlong as my etrex at the time was set to that mode. And I couldn't change it and talk to 999 at the same time.

The one I do care about is the evidence that in a few cases their closed algorithm has assigned almost identical 3 word addresses to geographically very close locations.

This was the big thing that changed my view. If you read back you'll see I was a great fan of w3w originally. But I am decidedly less impressed now I'm seeing more of it.

The fact they also have too much similarity on some words just feels like bad design.

I find myself wondering if there.their.they're is valid... Or check.cheque.czech...

J

There had to be one!    I am going to hazard a guess and say we aren’t your average Joe Public sample.  Most, if not all, of us will be familiar with maps and IT and GPS <checks forum title > so we may be the exception that proves the rule when it comes to giving locations in 999 calls.

I am only a fan of the simplicity of W3W and that Joe Public seems to like it.  Rushing to a fire at 3am, I can deal with a radio message that tells me the exact location is tomb.politics.ushering.  Simple, easy to remember and easy to confirm over the radio “I spell Tango Oscar Mike Bravo new word Papa Oscar Lima…..”. Much nicer than being told 51.860595, 0.352136 or 562067, 220616 No easy way to confirm and not at all memorable.  Scramble for pen and paper while bouncing about in the truck and hope you can read the result when you put the handset down.   And TL62062061 isn’t much better.

The use of homonyms, singular/plural and just awkward combinations isn’t at all good and could / should have been avoided with a better algorithm but it can be worked around in 99% of uses.  I have come across this issue once in use and it was easy to spot.  If it happens again then it would be something I would start to flag internally as a risk.

[lissotriton]

3 There are lots of claims out there about automatic phone location.  Only handsets sold after March 2022 have to offer the capability of sending handset derived location data to the emergency services though many did before this.  It requires an SMS or data connection afaik.  It’s a European directive that we make use of this I think so … brexit….hmmm who knows.

Also it will no doubt require systems upgrades in control centres that will be expensive and probably unfunded so may take time.

It was invented by BT in 2014, years before it became an EU standard. Surely that makes it British enough?
And it has been supported since Android version 2, so probably 99% of smartphones in use. I doubt the What 3 words app will work on Android version 2.
The emergency services have had plenty of time to get it implemented and working.

[FifeingEejit]

Thurs a fire gan Doon in Doune by the Dune It's the first o June

It's the speech recognition problem..


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[JellyLegs]

Ok, I have been convinced that use of W3W is undesirable having done a bit of research and won’t personally be recommending it to anyone from now on.  AML certainly looks the way forward as it does away with the need for any intervention by the caller so no app, no nothing and standard across all major platforms.  It does appear to be something that we have been very slow to adopt (way above my pay grade as to why) and implementation should be a priority going forward.

I have also learned a few things in the process.  Thanks for all your input.