Woman Taking Different Knees?

[Peter]

Have a look at this:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/disability-sport/57887715

Now have a look at this - and also a look at the crowd.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/handball/57890430

both on BBC News online today

[citoyen]

The problem is fundamentally the same in both cases: telling women what to wear.

[Mr Larrington]

[nikki]

There'll be some good long-form essays somewhere on how some cultures require women to simultaneously live up to expectations of being modest and slutty.

[Beardy]

This.

[fd3]

The problem is fundamentally the same in both cases: telling women what to wear.

Though you could extend this to "telling people what to wear".  For example, the Beach handball has it's roots on the beach - hence the requirement to wear swimwear.  If teh rulez required men to wear tiny speedos would the bikini bottom requirement be more acceptable or would it still be wrong?  Then take this same ruling and apply it to swimming pools in France (where men are not allowed to wear shorts in pools and women have similar dress code enforced).
What is the point of a dress code in any walk of life?

[Kim]

What is the point of a dress code in any walk of life?

Quite.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Dress codes can have a place, where they have a sensible point. Staying in sports, the requirement for members of each team to wear distinctive uniforms is clearly sensible as is the requirement for goalkeepers in football to wear a different shirt from the other players, but when FIFA tried to fine footballers for not having their shirts tucked into their shorts, that was counterproductive to their playing and did not contribute anything to the game. Perhaps surprisingly, football seems to have relatively sensible attitudes and regulations around clothes: some players have been known to worn long trousers rather than shorts, there seems to be free choice between short and long sleeves and as far as I can make out, women are subject to the same rules and choice as men, including some in hijab.

Some other areas of life are also sensible applications for dress codes, obvious ones being to distinguish certain professions such as police.

The problem with these two examples is that they seem to be micromanaging beyond what makes sense for the sport and that they do so in a demeaning way.

I'm not quite sure what we're meant to see in the crowd for the handball match though. I see shorts, but they're not on players, I see beer bellies on display (which might be a whole separate topic), I also see at least one player or official kneeling but I think that's to do with the game rather than taking the knee? Not that I know much about handball, so maybe it isn't. But what are we meant to see here?

[bobb]

But what are we meant to see here?

The woman in yellow is wearng bikini bottoms, the woman in red is wearing sort of tight shorts (not sure what you'd call them - Hot pants doesn't seem right!)

Edit: This is of course ridiculous, but sometimes you do need some rules on dress in sport (as pointed out above). You couldn't have a boxer deciding to wear full body armour. Or a swimmer wearing some super streamlined suit (I know they do, but there are rulez). Or indeed any other examples you could think of....

[DuncanM]

Football does enforce having your socks pulled up now though.

The difference between the 2 links is that one of them is an official body mandating "uniform" requirements (IMO in an absurd manner), and one is an official telling a competitor their clothing is inappropriate based on personal taste.

[bobb]

Football does enforce having your socks pulled up now though.

Jack Grealish never got the memo!

[DuncanM]

Football does enforce having your socks pulled up now though.

Jack Grealish never got the memo!

That's after the game. During it, if you roll your socks down, the ref is supposed to get you to roll them up.

[bobb]

That's after the game. During it, if you roll your socks down, the ref is supposed to get you to roll them up.

Ok, during a game:

[Beardy]

What is the point of a dress code in any walk of life?

Quite.

My father is a long time golfist snd he is of the opinion that not dressing properly is the route of all leftism. I won’t play golf in part because their dress code is indicative of the general attitudes I’ve met in other golfists.

[ravenbait]

I'm not quite sure what we're meant to see in the crowd for the handball match though. I see shorts, but they're not on players, I see beer bellies on display (which might be a whole separate topic), I also see at least one player or official kneeling but I think that's to do with the game rather than taking the knee? Not that I know much about handball, so maybe it isn't. But what are we meant to see here?

The point being, I imagine, that the audience comprises a bunch of beer-bellied white men standing up to get a better look at hot girls in bikinis getting sweaty.

This is all about keeping the numbers up for the sponsors in a sport that doesn't attract much of an audience. The fear being that people men will stop watching if the female athletes cover up anything other than the bare minimum of skin.

Here's a shot of the men's and women's teams in their official sanctioned uniforms. Spot the difference.



Make the men wear budgie smugglers, I say. In the hellhole that is twitter, someone made that suggestion, only for a bunch of responses to fly back talking about how they didn't want to see some dude's package, that's gay. 

Sam

[Karla]

Next we'll be told the cyclists' socks go more than halfway up their calves 

[DuncanM]

That's after the game. During it, if you roll your socks down, the ref is supposed to get you to roll them up.

Ok, during a game:

He's not wearing shinpads either.  I guess the 4th official wasn't bothered enforcing the laws.

[Cudzoziemiec]

That's after the game. During it, if you roll your socks down, the ref is supposed to get you to roll them up.

Ok, during a game:

He's not wearing shinpads either.  I guess the 4th official wasn't bothered enforcing the laws.

But just look at those calves!

I'm not quite sure what we're meant to see in the crowd for the handball match though. I see shorts, but they're not on players, I see beer bellies on display (which might be a whole separate topic), I also see at least one player or official kneeling but I think that's to do with the game rather than taking the knee? Not that I know much about handball, so maybe it isn't. But what are we meant to see here?

The point being, I imagine, that the audience comprises a bunch of beer-bellied white men standing up to get a better look at hot girls in bikinis getting sweaty.

This is all about keeping the numbers up for the sponsors in a sport that doesn't attract much of an audience. The fear being that people men will stop watching if the female athletes cover up anything other than the bare minimum of skin.

Here's a shot of the men's and women's teams in their official sanctioned uniforms. Spot the difference.



Make the men wear budgie smugglers, I say. In the hellhole that is twitter, someone made that suggestion, only for a bunch of responses to fly back talking about how they didn't want to see some dude's package, that's gay. 

Sam

Said to be also behind the popularity of women's football in the early 20th century, though what they wore wouldn't be considered revealing nowadays.

It's "taking the knee" I'm unclear about in this context though.

[bobb]

My father is a long time golfist snd he is of the opinion that not dressing properly is the route of all leftism. I won’t play golf in part because their dress code is indicative of the general attitudes I’ve met in other golfists.

Very few golf clubs have strict dress codes these days. Only really stuffy places. Although I have on occassion played at such places, I'm not really interested in playing anywhere like that now. And even they aren't that strict. Golf shoes, trousers and a collared shirt. That's hardly strict.

Most places might say no jeans, no football shirts etc, but so do plenty of bars, pubs and clubs etc. And everybdy knows the only people who go out dressed in jeans and a football shirt are twats.

Maybe your dad is just old skool. Tyrell Hatton even started wearing a hoodie at pro tournaments and the R&A were fine with it. It was only a few old men who complained - from their armchairs of course.

As this thread is really about women, it should be noted that golf allows women to dress pretty much as they please. Trousers (of any cut or length), skirt/skort (of any length) and no restriction on shirt sleeve length (or lack of) or indeed collars.

Actually, maybe rocking up in a bikini would be frowned upon....

[citoyen]

Actually, maybe rocking up in a bikini would be frowned upon....

You should try it and see what happens.

[citoyen]

Though you could extend this to "telling people what to wear".

Classic deflection. Focus on the issue at hand.

[quixoticgeek]

Here's a shot of the men's and women's teams in their official sanctioned uniforms. Spot the difference.



Make the men wear budgie smugglers, I say. In the hellhole that is twitter, someone made that suggestion, only for a bunch of responses to fly back talking about how they didn't want to see some dude's package, that's gay. 

That's such a powerful photo for showing sexism in sport.

If the women are required to dress like this, then the whole sport is saying: we do not want you to play this sport if you are not thin, attractive, and non religious. What happens if a conservative christian woman wants to play? or a Muslim woman? Or simply, a fat woman. I would be incredibly self conscious of my rather abundant kummerspek being on display like this. I know it's internalised fat shaming to say that noone wants to see my 100kg of fat dyke wallowing around in the sand.

The fact that the men can wear such baggy clothing is just adding insult to injury. There are sports where the clothing you wear can actively improve your performance (cycling, skating, swimming come to mind). But I'm pretty sure that is not the case for handball.

At risk of bringing this into cycling, something that some people find off putting about cycling is the belief that you need to be wearing skin tight lycra to be able to take part. I know I've cycle past groups of teenage boys who have laughed at my ample mass bulging from the largest size shorts I could buy. There was a really interesting post from one of the rapha 100 women women yesterday about what she wears to ride. She doesn't wear rapha tights, or assos, or any of the big names, but some unnamed brand off ebay, cos they are the only company she's found that make very light summer cycling tights that she can wear. I'll let you work out which of the 100 women this was. Interestingly, while they did take the preformative act of making a colour coordinated Hijab to wear, they didn't follow through by making it available as a product for general public to purchase (or if they did, I can't find it on their website).

We talk a lot about how to encourage more women to partake in cycling and in sports in general. And you know what? it's bullshit like this that's stopping them. Girls play sports almost as much as boys do right up to about the point they become teenagers, and then it drops off dramatically. Bullshit dress code rules for many sports are part of that. Even netball requires skimpy dresses... As for Tennis whites... ARGH.

Remember, every woman responding to this thread on this forum is cycling not because of the environment the cycling community and sport has created, but in spite of it.

J

[Beardy]

I don’t watch the beach volleyball (nor will I watch the hand ball it seems) because it seems far to much like sanctioned voyeurism and I just don’t feel comfortable with that. There’s no sporting need to insist on bikinis for the women* and to do so is far too 1950s. 

*indeed, the beach volleyball crowd allow Muslim women to dress modestly in line with their religious beliefs. I’m not sure if anyone can choose to do so nor if the handball federation allows it.

[ravenbait]

Remember, every woman responding to this any thread on this forum is cycling not because of the environment the cycling community and sport has created, but in spite of it.

I just wanted this to be louder. In case anyone missed it.

Sam

[Peter]

Ravenbait, Quixoticgeek and Beardy are echoing my thoughts - not that I think all other posts are wrong but they (R, Q and B) are where I am coming from.  I think Olivia Breen has a right to wear what she does but the picture she shows on the BBC news page is not the one that is presumably what gave rise to the official's comment, ill-advised though that may (or beer-belly-wise) may not have been.  Have a look at the slew of you tube videos of female athletes leaving the long-jump pit from non-descript athletic meetings to see where the beer-bellies are coming from.  Yes, I have seen some of them - but I've always kept my shirt on.

Jack Grealish's "violation" of the socks code is nowhere near as heinous as Foden's hairdressing stupidity.

I'd much rather be a Norwegian than a long-jumper.

PS sorry, Sam - what was that again?