Author Topic: DNF rate  (Read 37999 times)

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
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Re: DNF rate
« Reply #150 on: 12 August, 2022, 10:49:43 pm »
Wow!  Before I was forced to stop Audaxing, I'd done over 150 of them.  Never saw a shower at any of them.

Me neither... I mean they are in the shower at home!
Somebody reasonably svelte goes through A 200 in 8 hours, someone on the value side might take 13... plenty of time to go home, have a shower, have dinner and head off to the pub for a couple in 5 hours

It ain't a race!!!

Agree... if it was there would be people finishing in 6 hours or less.
It's just a reasonable pace of 27 kph, which is a far cry from racing or even from being a fast pace, which means roughly 7:20 of riding, add 40 minutes to get receipts and eat a snack and that's your 8 hours.


6 hrs for a 200? Used to finish 120 mile road races in less than 5 hours when I were a lad ;)

I doubt you ever raced over that distance, unless you were a pro...

Anyways, yes on a race course you would expect 5 hours even at amateur level, on an Audax route, even at "race pace" it would be hard to break the 6 hours.

For reference, the very fastest guys doing the Fred Whitton go under 6 hours... that's 180 km with around 3400 mt of ascent, it's open roads, but it's marshalled at junctions, so you can go a bit quicker than you would on an unsupported audax.

Crikey, I'd check someone's credentials before I responded like that.

Ian held records for running, as well as some very impressive time trialling.

I know you are new to this forum, so you probably need a head's up.
Forum members include people from all over the world, some with the right to wear rainbow.

Was there an ex-TdF rider now TV presenter on this forum at one time? I was Joe Average compare to him.

Re: DNF rate
« Reply #151 on: 12 August, 2022, 10:54:26 pm »
Possibly the late Paul Sherwen? Though I'm just guessing, Ian.

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
    • the_dandg_rouleur
Re: DNF rate
« Reply #152 on: 12 August, 2022, 11:08:03 pm »
Possibly the late Paul Sherwen? Though I'm just guessing, Ian.

I was thinking Brian Smith - tho' I may be wrong.

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Re: DNF rate
« Reply #153 on: 12 August, 2022, 11:11:31 pm »
I hope poor dead Paul Sherwen wasn’t on here to see all the Rude Things some people said about the Phil'n'Paul Show, suitcases of courage, V8 twin-turbo Diesel engines ect &, moreover, etc ;)

It probably wasn’t Raymond Poulidor either…
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
    • the_dandg_rouleur
Re: DNF rate
« Reply #154 on: 12 August, 2022, 11:12:50 pm »
I hope poor dead Paul Sherwen wasn’t on here to see all the Rude Things some people said about the Phil'n'Paul Show, suitcases of courage, V8 twin-turbo Diesel engines ect &, moreover, etc ;)

It probably wasn’t Raymond Poulidor either…

 ;D

Re: DNF rate
« Reply #155 on: 12 August, 2022, 11:28:34 pm »
I have been booted from the facebook page for commenting about it.
 

Can I just check who 'Booted you'?

Re: DNF rate
« Reply #156 on: 13 August, 2022, 07:48:24 am »
A couple of thoughts to add to the mix. Working as a volunteer at Innerleithen, it was interesting how many people (including Matt Page) said that they found the stage to there 'the hardest yet'. No doubt the heat was a factor and quite a few specifically commented on that. Indeed, given so many arrived at the back end of Tuesday, quite a few were planning to ride through the night to avoid it. Quite a lot also commented at how slow getting through Edinburgh was. I've not been involved before, but moving the turnaround to Dunfermline seems to likely have made Innerleithen a much more significant control, with a leg before it of a fairly slow 80 km, and 110km to the next sleep point?

Re: DNF rate
« Reply #157 on: 13 August, 2022, 08:14:09 am »
On chevinhawk’s note, I got sent to volunteer at Louth (which I found hugely rewarding, even though I at times felt guilty coz I shoulda been riding). I’ve arrived at Edinburgh ok at night, then slowly made my way through daytime traffic. Like riders like lightning Phil, I carry food between controls, and extra for the longer sections. I felt sorry for the riders who couldn’t get what they needed at our control, but new the experienced ones would stop on/off route to pick up what they needed at other controls or shops. I hope we didn’t have dnfs due to food issues.
Bikes are for riding, not cleaning!

αdαmsκι

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Re: DNF rate
« Reply #158 on: 13 August, 2022, 09:02:44 am »
Now the ride is over do we know the number of starters and finishers/ DNF rate?
What on earth am I doing here on this beautiful day?! This is the only life I've got!!

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Re: DNF rate
« Reply #159 on: 13 August, 2022, 09:03:44 am »
I have seen on Facebook pictures of the first people going through the last control... they look like proper cyclists... they don't carry 20 kg of extra fat and they travel light...
Maybe those who complain about the route should look at themselves in the mirror and they will understand why they found the route so hard.

#BMI

seriously?

as my mother said, "If you haven't got anything nice to say, shut your gob"

and that's coming from someone that went from 18 to 12 stone

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
    • the_dandg_rouleur
Re: DNF rate
« Reply #160 on: 13 August, 2022, 09:09:28 am »
Now the ride is over do we know the number of starters and finishers/ DNF rate?

All I know from my time at Brampton is about 1550 starters and about 1150 checked in at Dunfermline

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Re: DNF rate
« Reply #161 on: 13 August, 2022, 09:12:39 am »
Now the ride is over do we know the number of starters and finishers/ DNF rate?

I think you need access to the SCIENCE used for checking riders into controls to get exact numbers, which in my case I have not got.  IIRC ~1400 started of whom ~1500 reached St. Ives.  Yes, you did read that right.  Danial was talking of a 50-50 rate in the early hours of yesterday morning but I expect someone offishul can provide exact numbers when they wake up.

Edit: Just seen a WhatsApp message from Danial saying he has 906 brevets to process so it looks like predictions of 50-50 were somewhat pessimistic.  Approx. 60% finished, unless I've misunderstood.  It wouldn’t be the first time :P
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: DNF rate
« Reply #162 on: 13 August, 2022, 09:17:28 am »
From conversations I had at the finish yesterday evening, I was a volunteer there, it looks like the DNF rate may be over 40%  but not as high as 50%.

Re: DNF rate
« Reply #163 on: 13 August, 2022, 09:25:14 am »
I could be wrong, but it looks like the finish rate was 60%. It this is correct then we have a higher finish rate than 2017.

Re: DNF rate
« Reply #164 on: 13 August, 2022, 09:43:26 am »
On chevinhawk’s note, I got sent to volunteer at Louth (which I found hugely rewarding, even though I at times felt guilty coz I shoulda been riding). I’ve arrived at Edinburgh ok at night, then slowly made my way through daytime traffic. Like riders like lightning Phil, I carry food between controls, and extra for the longer sections. I felt sorry for the riders who couldn’t get what they needed at our control, but new the experienced ones would stop on/off route to pick up what they needed at other controls or shops. I hope we didn’t have dnfs due to food issues.

Mid control snacks you say?  ;D










Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Re: DNF rate
« Reply #165 on: 13 August, 2022, 09:45:44 am »
Hurrah!  Hurrah for chips'n'gravy!
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Wycombewheeler

  • PBP-2019 LEL-2022
Re: DNF rate
« Reply #166 on: 13 August, 2022, 09:59:20 am »
Riders need to make the most of the cool of the next three nights to give them time to stay out of the serious heat of the afternoon on Thursday and Friday. Still it'll make a change from people whimpering about how cold it is overnight. Will the conditions mean a better finish rate from those acclimatised to such high (for England) temperatures, I wonder?


People were seeing 4 degrees just before dawn, so it was both cold overnight and hot during the day.

I remember at Innerleithen arriving feeling cold coming off tge Hill and emerging from the control 45 minutes later it was suddenly hot. The window of comfortable temperatures was probably only from 6am to10am and 6pm to midnight.

I don't mind travelling on the flat in the best or the cold,  but climbing in the heat and descending in the cold were tough.

Eddington  127miles, 170km

P.P.

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Re: DNF rate
« Reply #167 on: 13 August, 2022, 10:00:02 am »
I could be wrong, but it looks like the finish rate was 60%. It this is correct then we have a higher finish rate than 2017.

Having just read through this entire thread, It's nice to see from that, that the previous numerous pages of general unpleasantness and predictions of the world ending were probably totally unnecessary.

I'll agree that it was a hard ride, and I'll agree that it was hot, but that's beyond anyone, and especially the organisers control. I'd consider myself no more han a middle of the road, average cyclist, but I don't personally think that there was anything in this year's route that I wasn't expecting or forewarned about.

Most importantly from my perspective the entire event was well managed, slickly organised and each and every volunteer I encountered went way beyond my expectations to make my ride as easy and enjoyable as possible, for which I am eternaly grateful.

Can we now please return to celebrating what should be a showcase event for UK cycling and stop trying to rip each other to bits?

Re: DNF rate
« Reply #168 on: 13 August, 2022, 10:05:04 am »
There were plenty of places to stop and top up snacks for the bike all the way to Hessle.    There were at least 5 shops  you went straight past on way to St Ives. I counted 4 shops you went straight past between St Ives and Boston, plus the numerous possibilities in Spalding.   Between Boston and Louth it was mostly Horncastle. Between Louth and Hessle there were 4 shops that I noticed, plus three cafes and chippy.  Plus numerous pubs.   These I didn't reach but knew about having looked at the route. Malton to Barnard Castle you've got Helmsley, Cowton services etc. Between Barnard Castle and Brampton you have a shop at Middle in Teesdale, pub at Langdon Beck, 24hr cafe St John's Chapel, the Nook Farm.  I know from 2013 that you pass four shops plus the 24hr cafeteria at the lorry park between Brampton and Moffat. Between Moffat and Dunfermline there are shops and garage at 60 / 70km.  Returning from Dunfermline you pass through Edinburgh.   Innerleithen has shops.  Longtown has shops.   

I'm a bit surprised at lack of resupply comments, and if overnight you expect to be carrying some emergency snacks to keep you going when everything is shut.



Re: DNF rate
« Reply #169 on: 13 August, 2022, 10:19:10 am »

I'll agree that it was a hard ride, and I'll agree that it was hot, but that's beyond anyone, and especially the organisers control. I'd consider myself no more han a middle of the road, average cyclist, but I don't personally think that there was anything in this year's route that I wasn't expecting or forewarned about.

Most importantly from my perspective the entire event was well managed, slickly organised and each and every volunteer I encountered went way beyond my expectations to make my ride as easy and enjoyable as possible, for which I am eternaly grateful.


I’d like to echo this.

As a novice audaxer (only bought a bike in sept 2020, did my first audax es this year (2x200, 2x 300) I thought it was an amazing, spectacular, incredibly well organised event. I’d studied the route in a lot in advance and had a pretty good idea what was coming up, the only two material unexpected challenges were 1) the sheer gruesomeness of flying ant day, approaching eskdalemuir, and 2) the questionable quality road surface in much of Scotland! 

Great work by the organisers and volunteers, both in advance and during the event. If that were a commercial event, I reckon it would be over a grand.

Wycombewheeler

  • PBP-2019 LEL-2022
Re: DNF rate
« Reply #170 on: 13 August, 2022, 10:25:14 am »
My thoughts on this
1) it was a tough ride,  this was always expected. Although not be all. An overseas rider commented he Duffy exist it to be thought tougher than PBP. IMO they are not even comparable. LEL was a real trial.
2) lots of talk about the yad moss closure being the main issue, but while this section was tough, the section from Malton to Barnard Castle was tougher IMO. Although it's fair to say Yad Moss cost everyone (who followed the route) 90 minutes each way over the original intended route.
3) I don't think it was harder than mille pennines which I didn't finish despite better form,  lighter bike and lighter rider at that time. And others report mille cymru being tougher still
4)weather - yes it was hot, but there was no head wind on the ride back across the fens, and no rain. There was an unusual headwind going north, but in previous years with a southerly wind people have wasted the gains on the outward leg  and been caught out on the return

What is the final tally of
A) starters
B) DNF
C) finished hors delays
D) riders finishing between 125 and 128.33 hours
E) riders finishing within 125 hours

Where did the most withdrawals occur?

Eddington  127miles, 170km

Graeme

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Re: DNF rate
« Reply #171 on: 13 August, 2022, 10:30:04 am »
I could be wrong, but it looks like the finish rate was 60%. It this is correct then we have a higher finish rate than 2017.

This is brilliant news! I pretty much spoke to / encouraged / cheered on every rider before they departed. Everyone was nervously optimistic before they headed out. To hear that so many of them made it is the best news I've had this morning.

Re: DNF rate
« Reply #172 on: 13 August, 2022, 10:34:10 am »
LEL needs to think about what it wants to be - for a lot of riders, it's a well supported gateway into ultra distance. The mileage is the challenge and additional scenery really isn't necessary. If it's going down the bigger, harder, tougher route then it needs to be clear about that.

I think this one wins the “armchair general” award for this thread, amidst stiff competition. As if we as a team never discuss this.

We have a very clear sense of what we are. We are already what we want to be.

Re: DNF rate
« Reply #173 on: 13 August, 2022, 10:35:37 am »
I was volunteering at two controls (the Seekrit one and then moved on up to Brampton). My impression is that a lot of the full value riders, novices and old stagers, tend to linger too long at controls and finishing in time rapidly becomes more and more unlikely.

Even if you don't have a ride plan, you MUST keep an eye on average speed (both rolling and by total elapsed time) and MUST have a realistic control plan and stick to it. On this ride if you lingered just 10 minutes longer at each control than planned, a total of over 3 hours is lost - which for full value riders is a game changer.

The other big time loser for some that I saw this time was poor bike preparation and lack of tools/knowledge of how to fix things yourself in the middle of a 100km stage.

P.S. In my 20+ year, R100,000 audaxing career I've never specifically "trained" for an event (hell, I'm no athlete), but there are structured build ups to big rides. For me each ride is training for the next. My DNFs have been due to unresolvable mechanicals or medical matters (mostly heat related). I think I would have been struggling on this ride with the heat had I not had to play the Covid card and reluctantly DNS just a couple of weeks before the start.

Control lingering is ever problematic for for full valve riders. With increased tiredness and lack of sleep there is an understandable yearning to rest-up at controls so time is easily eroded. It's a difficult cycle to break [nice pun there!]. I'm yet to break 89hrs for PBP!!! [with little to no sleep]. An increase in speed is the only answer really.

Qualifying rides are obviously handy in giving you some idea where you're likely to be in relation to finishing in time on a longer event. And Audax is a race - not against anybody else, but it's a race against time. That's the whole point of it. It's a challenge to finish a ride within a designated time frame.

And bike preparation is another important factor.
I worked as a mechanic at Bernard Castle in 2013, and at St Ives in 2017, and I would say, before I say anything else - I had a great time. Always on the go, always busy and loads of mechanical issues all over the place. It was never a problem.
But.....the amount of junk that made it's way onto the bike stand was quite extraordinary sometimes. Mechanicals can happen to most prepared of riders, and sometimes it's just bad luck, but to start a ride like LEL with gears all over the place, worn tyres, crap brakes and fraying cables is just asking for trouble. I remember on more than one occasion, riders standing around waiting for me to get through the back log of mechanicals so they could get back on the road.

Phil Dyson, the big chief at Barnard Castle in 2013 was never comfortable with what was going down. He thanked me at the end [as he did everybody else] but said [in relation to what I was doing] "we've given more than the call of duty here, it's supposed to be about self-reliance".  He had a point. I've no idea what the literature said about bike maintenance this time around about what is expected and what should or shouldn't be provided. Offering mechanical help is a good thing and a ride-saver for some, but it shouldn't be there to pick up the pieces of bad preparation. It's a waste of everybody's time.
Garry Broad

Wycombewheeler

  • PBP-2019 LEL-2022
Re: DNF rate
« Reply #174 on: 13 August, 2022, 10:37:00 am »
There were plenty of places to stop and top up snacks for the bike all the way to Hessle.    There were at least 5 shops  you went straight past on way to St Ives. I counted 4 shops you went straight past between St Ives and Boston, plus the numerous possibilities in Spalding.   Between Boston and Louth it was mostly Horncastle. Between Louth and Hessle there were 4 shops that I noticed, plus three cafes and chippy.  Plus numerous pubs.   These I didn't reach but knew about having looked at the route. Malton to Barnard Castle you've got Helmsley, Cowton services etc. Between Barnard Castle and Brampton you have a shop at Middle in Teesdale, pub at Langdon Beck, 24hr cafe St John's Chapel, the Nook Farm.  I know from 2013 that you pass four shops plus the 24hr cafeteria at the lorry park between Brampton and Moffat. Between Moffat and Dunfermline there are shops and garage at 60 / 70km.  Returning from Dunfermline you pass through Edinburgh.   Innerleithen has shops.  Longtown has shops.   

I'm a bit surprised at lack of resupply comments, and if overnight you expect to be carrying some emergency snacks to keep you going when everything is shut.
Approaching St ives - after the petrol station when crossing some main road (which you advised about previously) there was nothing unil a pub 10km before St ives. (I was looking)
Between Barnard Castle and Malton there was the truck stop, then a long time with nothing,  then a pub that refused to sell drinks even though they were open "I can't open the bar yet,  it's to early,  those cans in that fridge are staff property" until finally a shop 10km from the end (sold out of coke, but the snacks were cheap, I had to get extra to use my card (been a long time since a virus if drink and tray cars off chocolate cost less than£3

Eddington  127miles, 170km