Author Topic: The Bread Thread  (Read 107874 times)

Mrs Pingu

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #775 on: 07 May, 2022, 05:02:14 pm »
Managed to find my baking accoutrements from various boxes so tomorrow morning will be the first bread in the shiny! new! improved! oven, hopefully.
In other bread news I am finally down to my last bag of Sainsbos multiseeded soggy bottom flour so I should be back on the proper stoneground wholemeal in a month or so...
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #776 on: 07 May, 2022, 07:04:49 pm »
I had my first really poor loaf earlier this week.

Same 100% sourdough one I've made dozens of times before.
It's the change in overnight temperature that's the issue.
After the overnight bulk ferment at room temperature, it was super lively and sticky, and difficult to shape and put in the banneton for the final proof.
It was threatening to stick to the banneton after the final proof.

On baking, it didn't get half as much 'oven spring' as usual, and was rather flat and dense.
The resulting bread has a very strong malty smell and flavour.

Basically, it had over-proofed.
The fermentation had gone a bit wild overnight since the room temperature was so high.

I'm going to have to adjust my timings for the warmer weather, I think.
And make more effort with the 'finger-poke' test to determine optimal proofing.


Mrs Pingu

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #777 on: 07 May, 2022, 10:54:27 pm »
Managed to find my baking accoutrements from various boxes so tomorrow morning will be the first bread in the shiny! new! improved! oven, hopefully.
In other bread news I am finally down to my last bag of Sainsbos multiseeded soggy bottom flour so I should be back on the proper stoneground wholemeal in a month or so...

So I've been assuming that new (Bosch) oven would do the same as old Bosch oven and allow me to set it to come on at a certain time, thus letting me lie abed a bit longer on baking days, but I don't think it will, unless the instructions are just very poorly explained.
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Mrs Pingu

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #778 on: 08 May, 2022, 02:49:47 pm »
Well, that was not my finest hour. I did manage to get the oven to come on at sparrowfart despite the stupid instructions.
I made 2 of the same loaf. Unfortunately the 1st one I turned into a charcoal biscuit (operator error, I forgot that full blast on this oven is rather higher than the old one, I'm blaming the lurgi), the second one didn't seem to rise well. It was the same sachet of yeast but different packets of flour. I baked it anyway despite it looking a bit weedy.
The charcoal biscuit is ok on the crumb, the crust is just a bit carbonaceous...
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #779 on: 18 May, 2022, 01:29:00 pm »
I made a loaf yesterday morning - just an ordinary bog-standard yeasted loaf (1/3 wholemeal), because we'd run out of bread. Unfortunately, we had a power-cut mid-morning, which meant I couldn't put it in the oven when it was ready to bake. So I took it out of the tin, knocked it back, reshaped it and put it back in for a second prove. Luckily, the power was back on by lunchtime.

What came out at the end was an artist's impression of a perfect loaf:
Loaf by citoyen, on Flickr

And it tastes really good too - I guess the extra proving time allowed the flavour to develop.

Got a sourdough loaf on the go right now. The warm weather means it is rather lively, and it should be ready to bake this afternoon, despite only being started this morning.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #780 on: 18 May, 2022, 03:48:23 pm »
That looks perfect.

My last few loaves have been yeast-leavened too, because they prove overnight in the fridge, so a temperature-controlled environment which is unaffected by the seasons.
Yes, time is an ingredient. It is a main factor in developing flavour, and that's why yeast-based doughs are done in the fridge: you don't want it to be ready to bake in 2 hours.

My woes with sourdough recently are because levain-based doughs are much slower, and generally need overnight at room temperature.  But not so much right now!
Yes, you can reduce the time, but that's not really what I want to do; as I said, time is an ingredient.
I want the fermentation to take the full time.
So I need to manage the temperature better.
I've located what I think is a cool enough room in the house to leave it.  Beyond that, it's going to be in an out-building.  And then, a temperature-controlled cabinet, which I don't have the space for!


I've got the levain refreshing right now, and will attempt one tomorrow morning.

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #781 on: 18 May, 2022, 04:39:38 pm »

Yes, time is an ingredient. It is a main factor in developing flavour, and that's why yeast-based doughs are done in the fridge: you don't want it to be ready to bake in 2 hours.


Too right, 50 minutes before baking is enough ;)

My standard bake uses the raising setting in the oven which delivers consistent results across the seasons: 25 minutes 1st prove, 25 minutes in the tin, turn the oven on 45 minutes, finish out the tin for 5 minutes. Now Citoyen, that loaf does look mighty fine, but mine don't look _that_ different. As it goes, this morning's bake has more variation because (a) I dried the oven out after the 1st prove (lord knows why!) resulting in the surface not being as smooth as normal, and then it ended up being baked for 10 minutes extra so crust is darker. It still has a good texture and excellent flavour. The loaf on the left is Gilchester's unbleached white from bakerybits, picked up short date/reduced and VERY nice.

It might not be obvious but the raise is likely as much as yours, I would have thought the texture would be similar. Don't last long anyhow.

ETA - just to be clear, I am NOT saying mine look as nice as that one!!!


Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #782 on: 19 May, 2022, 07:27:17 pm »
Since I went on a sourdough course (see up thread), I've expanded my repertoire from 1 white sourdough loaf a week.

I've tried:
Seeded rye (baked in a loaf tin)
Porridge (oats and linseed boiled up and incorporated into the dough)
Bagels. O M G.

Ob cycling: Just scoffed a couple of slices of seeded rye with cheese while I watch the Giro highlights.
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #783 on: 03 June, 2022, 10:20:58 am »
Bagels. O M G.

Ooh! That sounds good. I've done yeasted bagels, never sourdough ones. Intriguing.

Have you tried making sourdough croissants yet? Unbelievably good.

In other bread news - I have a couple of old loaf tins that I don't really know the capacity of. I usually just fill them with an amount of dough that looks about right. But I thought I'd try to be a bit more scientific about it, so looked up on that there internet for a way of working out the "correct" quantity. And found this advice - one for the "science that makes you cringe" thread:
Quote
Math is definitely not my best subject. I have come to learn that it's always easier to do the math than just eyeball it.  I typically use grams per cubic inch.
http://www.wholegrain100.com/shaping--scoring-techniques-blog/calculate-bread-dough-to-fit-your-pan

 :facepalm:

As far as I can tell using info from various sources, the "correct" answer is a weight of dough that's roughly half the volume of the tin. My tins are different shapes but both hold around 1.2L water, so need around 600g dough according to this calculation. I know it's not an exact science and will vary according to the type of flour used, but I'm going to use that as a guide and see how I get on.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #784 on: 23 September, 2022, 08:19:32 am »
This belongs in the annals of divvery, but here due to the specialist nature.

I haz a bag of Gilchrist's Einkorn flour, an "ancient grain" apparently. I opens sed bag and tip out 750g. I think to myself, "Interesting, doesn't look look or feel like it will take that much water, probably how they used to prefer it in days gone by". Why, then, in the name of Dog and all that's holy did I then proceed to try to make it at 70%? Yes I know I was thinking to myself they probably used to make it sourdough, but really that's no excuse. In the oven now, anyhow. I'll probably finish cleaning up sometime next week.

ETA it made rather tasty bread

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #785 on: 24 September, 2022, 09:01:47 pm »
I'd offered to make a bread for a friend, so I did a double-quantity.
(Actually, a single-quantity from the Ken Forkish book; it's just that I normally do a half quantity to make one loaf!)

This is actually a hybrid leavened bread, with some 180g of levain and about 1g of yeast, in a 1000g total flour recipe,proved overnight in the fridge.
(The Pain de campagne, if you have the book.)

It's a great recipe, with the predictability of a controlled environment proof.  Has all the qualities of a pure sourdough you want: flavour, density, chew; but less big holes in it, a more consistent bubble distribution.

The one on the left is a bit wonky because the banneton was sitting a bit wonky in the fridge overnight. The polly bag was wrinkled a bit under it, so the banneton was tipped a bit over. So when I came to tip it out of the banneton and plonk it in the oven, the banneton ring-marks were all a bit off-centre!

The bread on the chopping board is an overnight straight yeasted 40% wholemeal, made in a bit of a hurry a couple of days ago.  It's a bit meh.
The more sharp-eyed reader may spot that I am mid-way through a dishoom kejriwal in the background...


Double sourdough by Ron Lowe, on Flickr

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #786 on: 25 September, 2022, 07:46:14 pm »
Branching out from a white loaf a week sourdough, I had a go at wholemeal. I've got a recipe in the pamphlet I picked up from my course at the E5 bakhouse.

Do all the stuffs, even a bit of temperature control for the leaven.

Hmm, as I stretch and fold, this dough is a bit stiff. Never mind, crack on.

Prove it overnight in the fridge. Still somewhat dense.  When it comes to baking it, the loaf is so firm I can pick it up in my hand and place it in the oven.

Looks like bread when it comes out, but small.  Re read the recipe.  375g of water you say?  Not the 275g I put in then. That's a drop from the proposed 85% hydration to 65%.

There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #787 on: 26 September, 2022, 06:10:28 pm »
Back on it.   30% dark rye. Looks like a nice spring.





Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #788 on: 26 September, 2022, 08:15:17 pm »
Back on it.   30% dark rye. Looks like a nice spring.






A nice spring? A nice helmet more like.

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #789 on: 26 September, 2022, 08:22:31 pm »
That was, until your helmet comment, my signature leaf pattern.

Now I can't unsee it.

Bastard.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #790 on: 02 October, 2022, 07:47:25 am »
One of the highlights of breakfast in Austrian hotels used to be Kornspitz rolls, a proprietary crusty roll with (being proprietary) a secret list of ingredients.  This year, no Kornspitz.  At first I thought the hotel was cutting costs but,if anything, the other food was better than before.  So I googled it.

It turns out that there was a very long-running court case ending in 2015 which judged that Kornspitz had become a generic name and the bakery/trademark owner lost its case.  So they stopped making the rolls, presumably because they were being undercut by competitors, and now you don't see Kornspitz anywhere.  Unintended consequences.

Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #791 on: 06 October, 2022, 06:28:00 pm »

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #792 on: 02 November, 2022, 10:38:50 am »
My wife wants to try one of our kids in a gluten free diet, she's bought gluten free flour and I'm going to try making bread. Any tips  when I make normal bread I only use flour yeast water and salt

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #793 on: 02 November, 2022, 12:35:50 pm »
My wife wants to try one of our kids in a gluten free diet, she's bought gluten free flour and I'm going to try making bread. Any tips  when I make normal bread I only use flour yeast water and salt

Gluten is kind of essential in bread making, so if you’re omitting it you will need to replace it with something else - xanthan gum or psyllium husks are good options. I’ve used both with some success. Best way to use them is mix with water and leave to soak for 10 minutes before adding to your flour.

Just don’t expect the results to be as good as proper bread with gluten in it. They will help give the bread structure but the texture won’t be the same.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #794 on: 02 November, 2022, 02:10:13 pm »
We bought a loaf of bread in a small bakery/cafe in Grasmere, Cumbria a couple of weeks ago.   It was sold as a white bloomer or tin (I can't remember which) and was delicious.  It had a very uneven structure (if that is the right word) much like the photo in Feanor's post of 24th September, a slightly rubbery/elastic texture to the bread and almost a glossy finish, especially on the inside of the larger air bubbles (or CO2 to be correct I guess).  We thought it might be sourdough, but it wasn't sold as such.  It was the same bread they used in their sandwiches which were equally delicious.  Any idea what it could have been from my highly detailed description? :facepalm:

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #795 on: 10 November, 2022, 11:42:30 am »
Could be sourdough or could be a regular yeasted dough but slow-fermented, using less yeast and cooler fermentation temperature, which allows the flavour to develop. Larger bubbles suggests higher hydration - 70% and upwards. That would also explain the chewier texture.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #796 on: 20 November, 2022, 06:41:41 pm »
In a moment of weakness I offered to make sourdough bagels for a family sized throng at Christmas.
Making I can do, but I'm not going to be making them on the day but making and freezing.

Key question: Should I make, bake, cool and freeze, thawing on the day or make, freeze, thaw and bake on the dsy?

I guess I could experiment beforehand.
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #797 on: 21 November, 2022, 07:21:03 am »
Almost. Part bake is the answer, I get great results with my baguette bake that way. You're looking to take them out the oven when the bread is set but not yet brown. Defrost before finishing.

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #798 on: 21 November, 2022, 03:02:32 pm »
Could be sourdough or could be a regular yeasted dough but slow-fermented, using less yeast and cooler fermentation temperature, which allows the flavour to develop. Larger bubbles suggests higher hydration - 70% and upwards. That would also explain the chewier texture.

Thank you for taking the trouble to reply and apologies for taking so long to actually get around to looking for the reply...

I will have a look on-line for slow-fermented dough, that could be a project for over the Christmas holidays.  If the dough has a high hydration level does that mean that it will still rise in a tin like a normal loaf would, or would it tend to slump over the edges?  The one we bought looked like a standard tin baked loaf with straight sides and then a slightly mushroom shaped top, with perhaps one quarter to one third of the loaf being above the top of the tin.


citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #799 on: 21 November, 2022, 03:23:44 pm »
I believe the trick to making bread with high hydration that doesn't slump is in how you shape it to create surface tension. It's not something I'm very good at, tbh - my sourdough loaves usually come out flatter than the ones made by experts on youtube, which are always perfect domes.

I would have thought it's less of an issue for tin loaves. I usually put mine in the oven when they're only just poking above the top of the tin, and the last part of the rising happens in the oven. Once the top crust has formed, there's no risk of slumping over the edges.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."