Tour de France 2012

[mcshroom]

As an antidote to the coming wave of patriotism, I've been trying to remember who the last stage winner born in Great Britain was, not including prologues. I'm wondering if it was Max Sciandri in 1995, stage 11.

Why some people always so obsessed with trying to decry any British sportsperson who's sucessful as not British or as having learnt everything in Australia (cricketers, rugby players)/Spain (Andy Murray) etc?

For example Cavendish comes from a BOT and is a British Citizen as is any other person born on the IoM (therefore I would contend British born ), Millar was born in Malta because his Dad was stationed there in the RAF. It doesn't really matter about nationality as this is not a national sport anyway, but as much as I find the petty patriotism an annoyance, petty anti-patriotism (as in against the patriotism, not any other meaning) seems to me to be just as annoying.

[LEE]

Strangely the phenomenon of decrying British "winners" as non-British, because of their parentage/place of birth, only seems to target white athletes.

Is this because it would appear racist to use the same arguments against, for example, Linford Christie (born in Jamaica, to Jamaican parents) or Daley Thompson (Nigerian father)?

If someone has a British passport, says they are British and competes for Britain then, in my mind, they are British.

No Aussie is going to say they are British if they aren't (despite Cadel and Lance probably being descended from Brits).

[Somnolent]

I think some of these quieter patches are crying out for viewers to send cake in to David Harmon and Sean Kelly, a la Test Match Special...

[bobb]

...petty anti-patriotism ... seems to me to be just as annoying.

^ That

Strangely the phenomenon of decrying British "winners" as non-British, because of their parentage/place of birth, only seems to target white athletes.

^ And that

I don't know why ESL has such an obbsession with this. No thread about bicycle racing is complete without it being brought up again. And again. And again 

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

I've done nothing but moan about Johnny Hoogerland for the last two weeks, as I have him in the fantasy tour and I was beginning to wonder if he was doing it on foot, but bobb texted me to say he's shown up today and is doing something.

[tiermat]

The racing seems better today, no 10's of minutes gap and attacks for the KOTM etc.

Shame about the crash with Cav, Froome and Porte.

[TimC]

Absolutely fantastic stage! I was on my feet shouting at the telly at the end!

[Tewdric]

Epic stuff- looks like another 18s or so put into Nibali.

Froome could have taken the yellow though as far as I could judge.

[TimC]

Maybe he could, but he's a very loyal man who knows his job. He'll get his chance, I have absolutely no doubt.

[bobb]

They left it too late. The fools!

Who knows what Froome could've done? I hope - to save any embarrassment - Wiggins wins the time trial by an enormous margin...

[LEE]

Epic stuff- looks like another 18s or so put into Nibali.

Froome could have taken the yellow though as far as I could judge.

I never thought they'd break Nibali.  Just shows how dominant Wiggins and Froome have been.

Froome must be odds-on for next year, especially if he stays in a SKY team like this.  Potentially they could tow him up 80% of the big climbs and then let him attack the final 20%.  Hard to imagine anyone staying with him.

[Peter]

It all seems a bit artificial:  there's no denying that Bradley is an exceptional rider, probably even the second best in this year's race.  Obviously, it was decided that, come what may, the team would ride for him.  But I think it would have been a much better spectacle if they had waited to see who seemed stronger (Froome) and gone with that.  He did a good time trial and I think he sould easily have won this tour by at least ten minutes, which would still have been a British victory.  I think they are being a bit hard on the spectators with these tactics.  Maybe the TT will prove me wrong.

What does the team think?

[bobb]

Possibly right. But by ten minutes!? 

We just don't know what would have happened if Froome was allowed to go on the stages where he looked strong. He might've blown up for all we know. And Wiggins may have actually put some effort in and not lost much time....

Edit: Pretty much x-post with above...

[mrcharly-YHT]

I think that given the care that went into preparation, either they knew that Froome is stronger, or in training he wasn't stronger.

Their tactics have been very carefully worked out, down to precise power output on climbs, per rider.

It may be they had to pick one lead rider and stick with them, but are keeping the 'reserve' close enough to yellow that they can take over and still have the team win if Wiggo crashed or cracked.

[citoyen]

What does the team think?

Team... that's definitely the mot juste.

[Peter]

You could all be right,  but I crave excitement! 

[Hillbilly]

It's impossible to know.  Left to his own devices, I suspect Froome would have had at least one bad day in the mountains as he wiped out his reserves of energy through over-enthusiasm.  I also suspect Froome+Wiggins ignores the impact of Rogers + Porte, who would have had split loyalty and so make the overall Sky effort less efficient in the hypothetical scenario.

Once the decision was made to push for Wiggins' win, it was the sensible thing to stick with that sole focus.  Otherwise, it ran the risk of no Brits on the top step of the podium.

All in my opinion.

[matthew]

Wiggins went into the tour as team leader and Froome as number two. Should Wiggins have crashed out Froome would take over. Sky will have agreed this and Froome known this from months before the tour.

As it is Sky have dominated som much they have both No. 1 and No. 2 on the leader board and could have chosen which rider wears yellow.

Instead of critisising Sky for 'holding back' Froome I'm happy to celibrate the British domination.

[TimC]

I think that given the care that went into preparation, either they knew that Froome is stronger, or in training he wasn't stronger.

Their tactics have been very carefully worked out, down to precise power output on climbs, per rider.

It may be they had to pick one lead rider and stick with them, but are keeping the 'reserve' close enough to yellow that they can take over and still have the team win if Wiggo crashed or cracked.

Exactly right. Sky don't do 'let's see what happens'. This is Bradley's Tour because it's heavy on TTs and he's the better TT rider. Froome is - marginally - better in the mountains, but Bradley is over 2 minutes ahead of him for a bloody good reason. If the parcours had favoured climbers, maybe Froome would have been leader. Next time, he might be. But this is Sky's call and Bradley's the selected leader.

[Gus]

D***n it Chris anker sørensen needs surgery after he got two fingers in the front wheel during a decent (another rider dropped a newspaper that got into his wheel and he tried to remove it "Phil- style") . Looks like he is out of the race. 

[Peter]

Matthew, I wasn't criticising Sky at all; they obviously know what they are doing to such an extent that they are completely in charge of the TdeF whereas I am posting on a cycling forum (along with others)!  I'm not sure about the "blowing up" argument unless he was silly.  After all, he's been working for Wiggins rather than the other way round and he's still up there and rearing to go.  The race goes to the person with the smallest aggregate time.  I think Froome could have done that, this year, but again that is not a criticism.  I just think it would have been more exciting.  This in no way diminishes Sky's achievement, it just makes it different.

[rogerzilla]

Is it just me who finds the last stage boring and anti-climactic?  I think they should do a Lemond/Fignon TT on the last day again.  Anyway, Wiggers has it now if he doesn't fall off.

[spesh]

Wiggins admitted to losing concentration once he saw that Nibali was cracking, and temporarily forgot about "all that performance crap". To me, it looked like Froome was trying to egg him on/ keep him going further up the Peyregudes climb, because Wiggo might have slightly overcooked it when they dropped everyone else. Note how Pinot and Nibali were starting to work their way back up to the Sky pair nearer the finish. Wiggins and Froome know what the deal is, this year is probably Wiggins' last best chance for the TdF, and he reiterated that he's happy to ride for Froome, so I'd imagine that Sky will have a plan for La Vuelta, learning from their mistakes last year, when they switched leadership roles too late in the race.

[matthew]

Is it just me who finds the last stage boring and anti-climactic?  I think they should do a Lemond/Fignon TT on the last day again.  Anyway, Wiggers has it now if he doesn't fall off.

Agreed with the exception of the final sprint in Paris, the last stage is a boring lap of honour style ride. However the reason for the TT on the penultimate day is to lengthen the interest unless a TT specialist shows he can also climb with the best. Hence last year Evans took the lead on the final TT.

Also the Sprinters Union would call a strike if it became a regular event to hold a TT on the last day into Paris.

[bobb]

If they did "let's see what happens" then they'd have ended up exactly where they are now: Wiggo would be 2 minutes up by virtue of the TTs

Only 44 seconds of Wiggins' lead over Froome is from the TTs. The rest was due to Froome having a flat near the finish of stage 1!