Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Topic started by: zigzag on 28 February, 2019, 08:54:45 am
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so.. i had to take public transport and get back home after 1am last night, because someone locked their bike to mine. i hope they(she) will be gone by the time i get there with appropriate tools, but if not, what's the best course of action, provided that i need to be able to use my bike again today?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190228/4773e6a8191a882f1b7734937f2d139e.jpg)
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Easier to cut through the seat tube than to remove the lock (unless you have lock-removing tools and skills)?
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^ Seems a bit harsh for what was probably done by accident.
I'd cut through / remove the offending lock and use my own lock on the other bike and leave a phone number.
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I thought that this is sometimes done in order to steal the attached bike at a later time.
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I thought that this is sometimes done in order to steal the attached bike at a later time.
I think sometimes it is, but that might have been a genuine mistake due to the colour of the bike combined with the weird shape of the rack.
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I thought that this is sometimes done in order to steal the attached bike at a later time.
I think sometimes it is, but that might have been a genuine mistake due to the colour of the bike combined with the weird shape of the rack.
You are both right! (I think)
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ziggy, I suggest that you change your forum profile personal text from "unfuckwithable", because this has clearly happened. Otherwise, I can offer you no help or guidance.
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So some approaches:
a) Add your own lock, put a phone number on, wait for them to call, negotiate unlocking of both bikes, educate them
b) Battery powered angle grinder - Gonna be noisy, you will attract attention, if the police are called you're gonna have to explain that you are doing criminal damage to someone's lock to get your own bike out
c) biggest bolt croppers you can get, I've had the same lock as that D lock, bolt croppers didn't really even shrug when they went through it (I'd lost the key), slightly bulkier than the angle grinder, but less noisy. You may have issues with people calling police still.
d) These locks have a pretty simple disk detainer lock core, they are eminently pickable with the right tools, if you have the right skills. Track down your local lock sport club and offer them some beer!
e) something I've forgotten
What ever you do, if you go the route of destructive removal of their lock, I'd call the local police and get them to supervise, it avoids having to explain after the fact that you're basically stealing your own bike.
Good luck!
J
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ziggy, I suggest that you change your forum profile personal text from "unfuckwithable", because this has clearly happened. Otherwise, I can offer you no help or guidance.
i haven't given up yet!! :D i was also kind enough not to carry and hide both bikes elsewhere before i returned with the "tools".
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So some approaches:
a) Add your own lock, put a phone number on, wait for them to call, negotiate unlocking of both bikes, educate them
b) Battery powered angle grinder - Gonna be noisy, you will attract attention, if the police are called you're gonna have to explain that you are doing criminal damage to someone's lock to get your own bike out
c) biggest bolt croppers you can get, I've had the same lock as that D lock, bolt croppers didn't really even shrug when they went through it (I'd lost the key), slightly bulkier than the angle grinder, but less noisy. You may have issues with people calling police still.
d) These locks have a pretty simple disk detainer lock core, they are eminently pickable with the right tools, if you have the right skills. Track down your local lock sport club and offer them some beer!
e) something I've forgotten
What ever you do, if you go the route of destructive removal of their lock, I'd call the local police and get them to supervise, it avoids having to explain after the fact that you're basically stealing your own bike.
Good luck!
J
cheers, i've left them a note on their lock. i thought about locking both bikes together and around the stand with my lock, but that would create more hassle. i'll be travelling there again this evening and am pretty sure my bike will be free. however, if not, i'll have to damage their bike to free mine..
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cheers, i've left them a note on their lock. i thought about locking both bikes together and around the stand with my lock, but that would create more hassle. i'll be travelling there again this evening and am pretty sure my bike will be free. however, if not, i'll have to damage their bike to free mine..
No need to damage their bike, that lock is really easy to cut through. Rent/borrow a pair of 48" bolt croppers and you'll be depressed by how easy you chomp through it.
J
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Snip (https://www.hss.com/hire/p/bolt-cropper)
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thanks but i have meetings in town and not prepared to haul bulky and heavy croppers around with me for (hopefully) no reason..
battery mini grinder with a diamond disc or perhaps a simple mini hacksaw would do the job
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Snip (https://www.hss.com/hire/p/bolt-cropper)
Presumably can also be used if a cyclist had locked his bike up and forgotten to bring the key.
<insert whistling innocently yellow face thing here>
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thanks but i have meetings in town and not prepared to haul bulky and heavy croppers around with me for (hopefully) no reason..
battery mini grinder with a diamond disc or perhaps a simple mini hacksaw would do the job
Hacksaw is gonna take you a while, maybe multiple blades, but you should be ok with the grinder...
J
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The chances of anyone calling the police are quite slim I’d expect.
Ditto the chances of the police coming out to help you sort it.
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hacksaw through seatstays would take a minute or so, then ride to an auto repair shop at convenient time and have the dangling lock removed from my frame with either croppers or mains angle grinder
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The chances of anyone calling the police are quite slim I’d expect.
Ditto the chances of the police coming out to help you sort it.
Indeed. Unless you're in a pseudo-public space where private security (or British Transport Police) are hanging around as a matter of course. I called the police on somebody boltcuttering a bike lock last year, and they were descended on by Bullring Security within about a minute.
The way I see it, if police do appear, then you can give your details and demonstrate that it's your bike: "Here's my ID. You can check that serial number with the national property register. Here's a picture of the bike looking suspiciously clean in my kitchen - don't worry about the jar of marmite. And here's a picture of me riding the bike up a Welsh mountain in the rain. Or, if you really care, we can go to a bike shop and have them pull the bottom bracket, which has my name and address wrapped around it..."
Also applies if you get caught changing your brake pads while black or similar. Always a good idea to be able to prove it's your bike.
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^ Seems a bit harsh for what was probably done by accident.
I know. But even if it was an accident, it’s at the top end of the careless scale, and I wouldn’t have the patience at that time of night to pay the price for someone else’s thoughtlessness.
Thinking about it, I might have tried to prise the seat stays away from the seat tube with something.
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The chances of anyone calling the police are quite slim I’d expect.
Ditto the chances of the police coming out to help you sort it.
Indeed. Unless you're in a pseudo-public space where private security (or British Transport Police) are hanging around as a matter of course. I called the police on somebody boltcuttering a bike lock last year, and they were descended on by Bullring Security within about a minute.
The way I see it, if police do appear, then you can give your details and demonstrate that it's your bike: "Here's my ID. You can check that serial number with the national property register. Here's a picture of the bike looking suspiciously clean in my kitchen - don't worry about the jar of marmite. And here's a picture of me riding the bike up a Welsh mountain in the rain. Or, if you really care, we can go to a bike shop and have them pull the bottom bracket, which has my name and address wrapped around it..."
"I've been on a ride with Titus Halliwell"
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The chances of anyone calling the police are quite slim I’d expect.
Ditto the chances of the police coming out to help you sort it.
Indeed. Unless you're in a pseudo-public space where private security (or British Transport Police) are hanging around as a matter of course. I called the police on somebody boltcuttering a bike lock last year, and they were descended on by Bullring Security within about a minute.
The way I see it, if police do appear, then you can give your details and demonstrate that it's your bike: "Here's my ID. You can check that serial number with the national property register. Here's a picture of the bike looking suspiciously clean in my kitchen - don't worry about the jar of marmite. And here's a picture of me riding the bike up a Welsh mountain in the rain. Or, if you really care, we can go to a bike shop and have them pull the bottom bracket, which has my name and address wrapped around it..."
"I've been on a ride with Titus Halliwell"
And look how that ended.... :(
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Need to go on a ride with Hudson and/or Hodson for the full set.
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Meanwhile on another forum:
I accidentally locked my bike to someone else's rather than the stand and I've gone away for a long weekend. Do you think it will be alright?
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Meanwhile on another forum:
I accidentally locked my bike to someone else's rather than the stand and I've gone away for a long weekend. Do you think it will be alright?
Makes me wonder how they know.
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(I think) It's entirely theoretical.
However, a friend of mine with anxiety issues takes photos of things (gas hobs switched off, fridge door shut, etc) so that he can reassure himself later on that he did remember to do whatever it was.
It's quite possible someone could have similar anxieties about whether they locked their bike up and then only realise later when looking at their photos that they bitchlocked someone else's bike.
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red bike is still there, hmm..
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Cut off the existing lock.
Having liberated your bike, lock the rogue one with your own lock.
Leave a note with a phone number stating that the rogue bike can be liberated for 2x, 3x, whatever, the cost of your rescue lock.
As J said upthread - teach them.
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(I think) It's entirely theoretical.
However, a friend of mine with anxiety issues takes photos of things (gas hobs switched off, fridge door shut, etc) so that he can reassure himself later on that he did remember to do whatever it was.
Going off-topic here, but I'm glad I'm not the only weirdo who does that (I actually take a video when going away for a holiday etc. to reassure myself :-[).
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(I think) It's entirely theoretical.
However, a friend of mine with anxiety issues takes photos of things (gas hobs switched off, fridge door shut, etc) so that he can reassure himself later on that he did remember to do whatever it was.
Going off-topic here, but I'm glad I'm not the only weirdo who does that (I actually take a video when going away for a holiday etc. to reassure myself :-[).
I have a friend who does this[1] who's recently expanded to using it as a food/medication diary, as it's more reliable to take a quick photo that you can scroll back through the timeline of later than to faff around forgetting to write things down.
Seems like an excellent use of mainstream technology for assistive purposes :thumbsup:
[1] Previous system (which I also think is quite clever) was to think of a random animal every time they locked the door, so they could know they were remembering locking it today and not some previous occasion.
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The trick is to recognise that the human brain doesn't remember states, it remembers actions.
I can't remember "that the door is locked", because that is a state, but I can remember "locking the door", because that is an action.
I can thus reassure myself with that if I locked it, it will be locked.
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The trick is to recognise that the human brain doesn't remember states, it remembers actions.
I can't remember "that the door is locked", because that is a state, but I can remember "locking the door", because that is an action.
Similar when swimming and you want to count lengths. You don't count lengths, you count the turns.
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I can thus reassure myself with that if I locked it, it will be locked.
Well yes. But the action of locking a door is about as memorable as the previous dozen actions of locking the door. Yes you remember locking the door, but was that today or yesterday? Hence the animals to make each locking a pseudo-unique event.
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did the best i could with what i had. cutting the lock with the grinder was generating too much noise, sparks and attention for my comfort, so i hacksawed the chainstays to liberate my bike. spent another ten minutes munching through the cable lock with my inadequate snippers so i could leave their bike looking like it's locked. chainstays can be easily welded, but i don't think it's worth it for a bso like that. anyway, that's the end of this story.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/abf15d4fece4d3719c8787afe1b08a04.jpg)
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You're a bad man Zigzag! O:-)
I hope you were wearing gloves :demon:
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Blimey!
That's someone's bike fucked.
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Blimey!
That's someone's bike fucked.
Quite. :-\ I wouldn't really call it a BSO, either (I think it's a Raleigh Pioneer? Used to have one, good solid commuting bike). I hope it's not someone's main/only means of transport.
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so in case of you being somewhat inconvenienced, you destroy their bike? Lock seems fair game, but the bike seems OTT to me
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easy guys, the stays can be welded back together again, nothing else was damaged or "destroyed".
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No one is going to pay (or even think) to get that welded. You’ve completely fucked that bike. Congratulations!
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Looking back at the original photo, I just don't believe that's an accident. Old bike, but good lock, which just 'happens' to be straight onto the other bike and doesn't even touch the stand. And then not touched the whole of the next day, during the working week. I think you've done right.
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No one is going to pay (or even think) to get that welded. You’ve completely fucked that bike. Congratulations!
it's their choice (provided the bike wasn't just abandoned, which might have been the case judging by non functioning brakes). cheers!
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Looking back at the original photo, I just don't believe that's an accident. Old bike, but good lock, which just 'happens' to be straight onto the other bike and doesn't even touch the stand. And then not touched the whole of the next day, during the working week. I think you've done right.
i still think it's 50/50, but either way i didn't have much choice. it took me good ten minutes to grind the lock off my bike this morning, which i wouldn't have been able to do in the dark, cold and rain last night.
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easy guys, the stays can be welded back together again, nothing else was damaged or "destroyed".
If someone had cut through the tubes of my bike due to a mistake on my part I'd be mighty pissed off, and if I knew who might even consider a small claims court.
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I think zigzag's actions are 'robust' but defensible.
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easy guys, the stays can be welded back together again, nothing else was damaged or "destroyed".
If someone had cut through the tubes of my bike due to a mistake on my part I'd be mighty pissed off, and if I knew who might even consider a small claims court.
so, what would be the righteous way of getting your bike back? i've asked here in advance, but no one came up with a suitable solution. i could have resolved it without posting here, but discussion on contentious matters takes us towards clarity and truth (sometimes).
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There's some useful info amongst the chaff over at LFGSS: https://www.lfgss.com/conversations/216638/
The act of bitch-locking itself is criminal damage ("damage includes temporary impairment or temporary loss of use" - CPS - R v. Fiak (2005))
Given this I wouldn't have any problem cutting the bike if I thought it was just being used as a device to steal my bike. Ideally I would prefer to just cut their locks but that may not be possible and so cutting the bike is the last resort.
heard back from the Cycle Task Force just now on the emailer:
"
though we would like to help we do not have the cutting equipment necessary to cut locks as we are pre dominantly a proactive investigation unit.
If the circumstances suggested do occur I suggest you contact the Police to let them know what you are doing and seeing if the Fire Brigade or Local Builders Hire shop can assist with the removal of the locks.
"
Other suggestions included optionally taking the other bike to the local police station if you have cut all of its locks off.
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easy guys, the stays can be welded back together again, nothing else was damaged or "destroyed".
If someone had cut through the tubes of my bike due to a mistake on my part I'd be mighty pissed off, and if I knew who might even consider a small claims court.
so, what would be the righteous way of getting your bike back? i've asked here in advance, but no one came up with a suitable solution. i could have resolved it without posting here, but discussion on contentious matters takes us towards clarity and truth (sometimes).
I'm not going to engage with this any further, I've told you why I think you were wrong to take the action you did, and further discussion will not change that
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I'm not going to engage with this any further, I've told you why I think you were wrong to take the action you did, and further discussion will not change that
thanks for sharing your opinion (i've looked above but couldn't find your advice..)
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The trick is to recognise that the human brain doesn't remember states, it remembers actions.
I can't remember "that the door is locked", because that is a state, but I can remember "locking the door", because that is an action.
Similar when swimming and you want to count lengths. You don't count lengths, you count the turns.
Interesting...! my issue there is I think with premature incrementation of the counter, i.e. after this one, I'll have done 6. Did I say I'd soon have done 6, or I've done 6 already?!
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I can thus reassure myself with that if I locked it, it will be locked.
Well yes. But the action of locking a door is about as memorable as the previous dozen actions of locking the door. Yes you remember locking the door, but was that today or yesterday? Hence the animals to make each locking a pseudo-unique event.
Locking the door was perhaps a bad example as yes you're right, it's so unmemorable... but for me that also means it's automatic, so I rest in the knowledge that I probably did do it because I do it out of instinct.
But still not sure how an animal helps this. If I remember locking it with animal "squirrel", for example, how do I know that "squirrel" relates to today, and not yesterday? Does the animal's name have to begin with the same letter as the day of the week, for example?
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Forgive me for being dim but it appears from the picture that the two bikes were locked together, rather than the same lock being used to lock both bikes to the stand. Was this the case?
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I would guess that Zigzag (black bike owner) had either removed his lock before taking the photo, or his lock (which locks his bike to the stand) is not in the photo.
The lock in the photo belong(ed) to the red bike.
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I would guess that Zigzag (black bike owner) had either removed his lock before taking the photo, or his lock (which locks his bike to the stand) is not in the photo.
The lock in the photo belong(ed) to the red bike.
yes, i had my bike locked to a stand with my d-lock around the seat tube and rear wheel. my d-lock is unlocked and visible attached to the bike onto it's seat tube pointing forwards, and photo was taken during the time i was pondering what to do next. spent the next hour in a nearby pub asking people around if it's anyone's bike until the pub closed and i took the last tube home.
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I would guess that Zigzag (black bike owner) had either removed his lock before taking the photo, or his lock (which locks his bike to the stand) is not in the photo.
The lock in the photo belong(ed) to the red bike.
yes, i had my bike locked to a stand with my d-lock around the seat tube and rear wheel. my d-lock is unlocked and visible attached to the bike onto it's seat tube pointing forwards, and photo was taken during the time i was pondering what to do next. spent the next hour in a nearby pub asking people around if it's anyone's bike until the pub closed and i took the last tube home.
If the other persons lock had been around the stand and your bike I might have understood the possibility of drastic measures... but otherwise I have to agree with @ElyDave and @grams. I would think other options that fundamentally wrecking someone else's bike were available.
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If the other persons lock had been around the stand and your bike I might have understood the possibility of drastic measures... but otherwise I have to agree with @ElyDave and @grams. I would think other options that fundamentally wrecking someone else's bike were available.
given enough time and disproportionate expense - yes, i agree. their bike however can be easily and cheaply repaired, it's not been wrecked.
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I'd be interested to see how many of the moral righteous thou shalt not destroy a bike brigade would be pointing and laughing if the offender was a selfishly parked car. :)
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If the other persons lock had been around the stand and your bike I might have understood the possibility of drastic measures... but otherwise I have to agree with @ElyDave and @grams. I would think other options that fundamentally wrecking someone else's bike were available.
given enough time and disproportionate expense - yes, i agree. their bike however can be easily and cheaply repaired, it's not been wrecked.
So you keep saying... sounds like post hoc rationalisation to me.
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If the other persons lock had been around the stand and your bike I might have understood the possibility of drastic measures... but otherwise I have to agree with @ElyDave and @grams. I would think other options that fundamentally wrecking someone else's bike were available.
given enough time and disproportionate expense - yes, i agree. their bike however can be easily and cheaply repaired, it's not been wrecked.
So you keep saying... sounds like post hoc rationalisation to me.
it's not, i chose the place to cut for the least amount of damage and easiest repair. same with the d-lock, it can be repaired if the owner found this thread and got in touch (provided my bike was locked without malicious intent). i always strive for a win-win solution, wherever possible. O:-)
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given enough time and disproportionate expense - yes, i agree.
You said you already had a grinder and were cutting the lock?
their bike however can be easily and cheaply repaired, it's not been wrecked.
Bollocks! No normal person would see that and think it could be repaired. And I can’t see a professional doing it “cheaply”. That bike will never be ridden again.
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i started cutting the lock, but the mini-grinder tool was not powerful enough, plus i couldn't see properly in the dark and rain. it also generated noise, sparks and attention. if you are brave to do this in busy public space i encourage you to go and try that. easy to be righteous keyboard warrior, i'm interested what would be your course of action (it doesn't mean it would be suitable for me, but i'd still like to hear)?
many normal people have repaired their broken bikes by welding, just ask some seasoned tourists or audaxers who use steel bikes for their travels. no drama there whatsoever.
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What did the cop who you consulted before say? I assume you told them what your plans were?
And I wouldn’t call a seasoned tourist or audaxer normal...
I can’t see that bike ever being ridden again. Or worse the rider not realising what happened and trying to ride it.
Cutting the lock could be justified. Cutting the frame though? Criminal Damage.
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Cutting the lock could be justified.
that's what i did :thumbsup:
Cutting the frame though? Criminal Damage.
oops. what's next?
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If that happened in London (and presumably the same would apply in many other cities and towns), my immediate thought would be that this was a deliberate act. I would then work to find a way to retrieve my bike as quickly as possible, knowing the longer it is left the greater the chance it wouldn't be there when I returned.
Personally I wouldn't have the courage to extract it the way zigzag has, but I do see this as a viable route.
One option I might have taken would be to leave my details and an explanation of what I was doing at that local pub, and then wheel both bikes to the tube station and take them both home. Then look to break the lock, and return the other bike. But I appreciate I'm making this suggestion without full knowledge of the circumstances, and obviously outside the time window that zigzag had to act.
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Judging by the sticker on the dowtube, it looks like the bike was on one of the bike registers. That would suggest it's more than a clunker to the owner. Sorry, cutting the frame is too far. As described earlier, contacting the police and then cutting the lock would be OK in my book, but I think you've just written off someone's bike. Imagine how you would feel the other way round.
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I can thus reassure myself with that if I locked it, it will be locked.
Well yes. But the action of locking a door is about as memorable as the previous dozen actions of locking the door. Yes you remember locking the door, but was that today or yesterday? Hence the animals to make each locking a pseudo-unique event.
Locking the door was perhaps a bad example as yes you're right, it's so unmemorable... but for me that also means it's automatic, so I rest in the knowledge that I probably did do it because I do it out of instinct.
But still not sure how an animal helps this. If I remember locking it with animal "squirrel", for example, how do I know that "squirrel" relates to today, and not yesterday? Does the animal's name have to begin with the same letter as the day of the week, for example?
I'm thinking as BenT on this. In order to think of an animal when locking the door, you have to remember that you're supposed to remember it. So it works, but you can't be sure after the event that it did work.
I have a lovely but scatterbrained (perhaps lovely because scatterbrained?) friend in Warsaw who used to have a list, written in bold marker pen on poster-sized paper, on the back of her door:
HAVE YOU GOT?
KEYS
PHONE
WALLET
SEASON TICKET
BAG
MONEY
BOOKS
(probably not an exhaustive list, but not separate occurrence of wallet and money)
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You gave them 24 hours and tried to cut the lock off before doing what you had to do to get your bike bike.
Fair enough.
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Other than your lock, was anything actually attached to the stand?
I think I’d have lifted them both over the top and dealt with it elsewhere.
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<...>
One option I might have taken would be to leave my details and an explanation of what I was doing at that local pub, and then wheel both bikes to the tube station and take them both home. Then look to break the lock, and return the other bike. But I appreciate I'm making this suggestion without full knowledge of the circumstances, and obviously outside the time window that zigzag had to act.
i've carried them few metres away but they were too heavy (30kg+) to carry any considerable distance and bikes are not allowed in the tube anyway. i've talked to a pub lady the night before and told that i might be back tomorrow to rescue my bike if the other one is still there. also tried to wave down a passing police car, but they were going somewhere else and didn't have time to stop (or didn't notice me?).
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Judging by the sticker on the dowtube, it looks like the bike was on one of the bike registers. That would suggest it's more than a clunker to the owner. Sorry, cutting the frame is too far. As described earlier, contacting the police and then cutting the lock would be OK in my book, but I think you've just written off someone's bike. Imagine how you would feel the other way round.
thanks for your input; who would do the cutting in a public place, police or me? i've tried cutting the lock initially, but it wasn't working with the tool i had. their bike can be repaired if they want to. i'd feel fine, had three bikes stolen in london over the years, no negative emotions. i'd feel different if one of my "nice" bikes was stolen, but i try not to leave them unattended.
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Other than your lock, was anything actually attached to the stand?
I think I’d have lifted them both over the top and dealt with it elsewhere.
i've carried them for few metres to a more convenient place under the street light but they were too heavy to carry for any considerable distance.
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Other than your lock, was anything actually attached to the stand?
I think I’d have lifted them both over the top and dealt with it elsewhere.
i've carried them for few metres to a more convenient place under the street light but they were too heavy to carry for any considerable distance.
Yeah I’d imagine it’d be difficult to move them. It’d have probably involved a second set of hands and probably a large car or a van to get it anywhere useful.
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If the owner ever returns it’s going to look like someone cut through the bike to steal their lock.
A surreal theft.
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I once got blocked into a car park after dark with two screaming kids in the car. I had to do a bit of touch-parking to escape. I did not leave a note on the car. It was their fault.
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Judging by the sticker on the dowtube, it looks like the bike was on one of the bike registers. That would suggest it's more than a clunker to the owner. Sorry, cutting the frame is too far. As described earlier, contacting the police and then cutting the lock would be OK in my book, but I think you've just written off someone's bike. Imagine how you would feel the other way round.
thanks for your input; who would do the cutting in a public place, police or me? i've tried cutting the lock initially, but it wasn't working with the tool i had. their bike can be repaired if they want to. i'd feel fine, had three bikes stolen in london over the years, no negative emotions. i'd feel different if one of my "nice" bikes was stolen, but i try not to leave them unattended.
Exactly.
As pointed out above from the LFGSS thread, bitch-locking a bike is considered as a form of criminal damage as it deprives the owner of access to their property. Whilst this doesn't automatically mean that the bike in question is fair game there needs to be a consideration of how much time and money one is willing to expend to get their bike back, money that will almost certainly not be recoverable.
Consider the extremes...
A solution costing £0, not affecting the other bike, and taking barely any time at all would obviously be ideal. But this wasn't available.
zigzag tried the other £0 route of waiting 24+ hours, leaving notes, etc, but that didn't work.
Having to spend £500 (inflated figure used on purpose) to short notice buy or rent a large set of bolt croppers or portable angle grinder would, hopefully, get your bike back and leave the other bike unaffected (if you dropped it in at the local police station for example). But that's a lot of money, plus the hassle of renting and returning the items, etc.
Given those two extremes the reality of the various options will be somewhere in the middle, and everyone will have a different opinion of the amount they are willing to spend (and time they are willing to wait).
If it was, say, £50 to grind off the lock (and leave the other bike undamaged) and a few hours extra hassle of renting/returning the grinder, but £3 for a junior hacksaw from a nearby hardware shop to cut through the seat stays in 5 minutes then, depending on lots of other circumstances, the latter might seem like the preferred option at that time.
It also comes down to how urgent the need for the bike is. If this was my cheap commuting hackbike that cost me £20 I'd be willing to sit it out with a note on the other bike for much longer than if it was an £2000 bike I needed for an Audax or other ride a day or so later (especially if this could be a targeted theft attempt).
Finally, in this case, the cost of repairing the seatstays is proabably about the same as the cost of the D-lock that would have been cut off. It's just getting the seatstays fixed isn't an item you can order online or buy quite easily on the high street. (EDIT - they're also down the cost of the D-lock too, so this equivalence doesn't quite work here.)
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The frame isn't worth repairing with cut seatstays (£300, I reckon - two new stays - you can't just braze them as material is missing, plus paint). I'd still have cut it. 24 hours is long enough to wait, the authorities won't help and cutting a lock is very difficult plus carries the risk of arrest.
If the owner complained, I'd source a s/h frame and transfer the bits.
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I once got blocked into a car park after dark with two screaming kids in the car. I had to do a bit of touch-parking to escape. I did not leave a note on the car. It was their fault.
That seems like about the best comparison/analogy yet. I don't think anyone would begrudge your behaviour in that situation.
zag's scenario was different, but also in many ways the same - I don't find him guilty of anything; it was the fault of the other bike-owner.
( I do think cyclists - taken as a statistical average - are a lot more forgiving, less selfish, and more likely to give people benefit-of-the-doubt. Drivers are much more territorial, quick to blame others, and generally selfish! )
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I once got blocked into a car park after dark with two screaming kids in the car. I had to do a bit of touch-parking to escape. I did not leave a note on the car. It was their fault.
More extreme my old colleague Garcia who, on finding the exit from his parking space blocked by another somewhat tatty car, drove merrily back into its passenger door then forward across the grass and away.
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What depresses me is how little people seem to know about the strength of a lock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyORzskAkkY
A lock like that pictured, with the right tool, is seconds to destroy. The tools are not expensive, and many can be borrowed or hired.
I'm expecting the owner of that bike came back, got on it, and the bike self destructed on them.
J
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I wouldn’t have a clue about the strength of the lock, or the tools to deal with it.
Why are you depressed about that?
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Surely general ignorance is the mechanism through which most bike locks perform their function? The good ones up the game to 'uncommon tools'.
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I wouldn’t have a clue about the strength of the lock, or the tools to deal with it.
Why are you depressed about that?
Because people trust their bikes to locks that are so easy to compromise.
Surely general ignorance is the mechanism through which most bike locks perform their function? The good ones up the game to 'uncommon tools'.
Yes and no. A simple hacksaw will go through a surprising number of locks, and things like a nut splitter or bolt croppers you can buy at any decent tool shop, there's nothing special to them...
J
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I'd put the blame on the rather silly design of the stand. It's most likely the owner of the other bike genuinely thought they were locking it to the stand. That obviously isn't always the case in these incidents.
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If the owner ever returns it’s going to look like someone cut through the bike to steal their lock.
A surreal theft.
My friend and I locked out bikes together (and to a post) outside a cinema. When we came out someone had nicked the lock! It was only a cheap combination lock in though, and my friend's not mine so was I bothered? ;D
It was a school matinee showing of Zefferelli's Romeo and Juliet and although we never knew until after we married, the future Mrs PC was also there.
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I'd put the blame on the rather silly design of the stand. It's most likely the owner of the other bike genuinely thought they were locking it to the stand. That obviously isn't always the case in these incidents.
I don't think it's particularly silly: A variation on the classic Sheffield design, which provides more locking point options for bikes without a traditional diamond frame that might otherwise end up sticking out or badly supported in order to be properly secured. It likely makes the stand easier to detect with a cane[1], as a side-effect (normally a horizontal plate is fitted to the stands at the ends of a row to achieve this, but the 'M' design is probably easier to manufacture).
Ultimately, locking up a bike securely is one of those visual-spacial tasks that some people are naturally good at, and others have to learn step-by-step. It probably correlates with ability to draw a bicycle. If you've had to learn it as a sequence of steps, you're going to have more difficulty adapting to unusual stand designs, etc. That the OP's bike has a toptube that looks a bit like a bit of bike rack doesn't help.
I'm leaning towards the mistake theory, rather than the secure-as-precursor-to-theft, simply because there's nothing to stop the OP coming along with a suitable vehicle and carting off both bikes.
[1] A traditional Sheffield stand appears to be a pair of posts until you walk into it.
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I once got blocked into a car park after dark with two screaming kids in the car. I had to do a bit of touch-parking to escape. I did not leave a note on the car. It was their fault.
That seems like about the best comparison/analogy yet. I don't think anyone would begrudge your behaviour in that situation.
zag's scenario was different, but also in many ways the same - I don't find him guilty of anything; it was the fault of the other bike-owner.
( I do think cyclists - taken as a statistical average - are a lot more forgiving, less selfish, and more likely to give people benefit-of-the-doubt. Drivers are much more territorial, quick to blame others, and generally selfish! )
I'm along these lines too. If it wasn't deliberate, being careless enough to miss the stand, and lock your bike to someone else's, with all the disruption it potentially causes them, comes with a risk to your bike and/or lock, that the bike extraction may be fully outside of your control or the way you'd want the bikes separated...
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Locking points for bikes of various heights (and whatever height the stand is, it's never ideal) can be provided by having two (or more) horizontals.
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Locking points for bikes of various heights (and whatever height the stand is, it's never ideal) can be provided by having two (or more) horizontals.
Indeed, but that means welding, rather than just making an extra couple of bends in the tube.
Coincidentally, the 'M' stand is by far the best design I've come across for locking a USS recumbent bike to - you can just offer the bike up to it rather than having to slide the handlebars up from underneath or stick the front half of the bike out from the stand. Reasonably sure that wasn't what they were thinking off at the time (unless it's the work of the same guerrilla darkside activist welder who designed those A-frame Silly Sustrans Gates™), but I'm not complaining.
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Back to the OP which I've only just read. I hope you left a note saying "Don't ride this bike until you've rewelded the stays - and take more care what you lock your bike to".
Look at it positively. At least the owner still has the bits, which he or she wouldn't if the two bikes had been carted off to be liberated and the offending one then dumped in the canal or whatever.