What books are we reading at the moment ?

[Flying_Monkey]

Odd is it not that even in this enlightened age the J word is still mostly accepted as ok while (quite rightly) the N or P word is not.
    Having said that I still do not understand how a religion transformed itself into a nationality (maybe I should start a thread on this one)

That's the thing. And 'Jew' is not a term like either 'Nigger' or 'Paki' (which I presume is what you mean by your coy capitals). It is a term used by Jewish people (Jews) and has been as long as Jews have been using the English language. Read some Howard Jacobson and you'll soon get over your problem with the word! It's all about context...

[Quint]

Why on earth are you being so offensive toward me and my comments, the word Jew has very often been used as an offensive term, the word Jewish not, also there is nothing "coy" about using initials for words that most civilised people find completely offensive, just ask any Pakistani their opinion on the matter.
     I have no problem with authors or for that matter people who use terms or words that I find racially or for that matter sexually offensive(ie bitch or whore used in so called normal speech to descibe someones wife/girlfriend) I just steer as clear from that sort of oafish behaviour as possible.
      I obviously must censor my comments or those of a  fascist mind set will take even more offence
 

Odd is it not that even in this enlightened age the J word is still mostly accepted as ok while (quite rightly) the N or P word is not.
    Having said that I still do not understand how a religion transformed itself into a nationality (maybe I should start a thread on this one)

That's the thing. And 'Jew' is not a term like either 'Nigger' or 'Paki' (which I presume is what you mean by your coy capitals). It is a term used by Jewish people (Jews) and has been as long as Jews have been using the English language. Read some Howard Jacobson and you'll soon get over your problem with the word! It's all about context...

[Flying_Monkey]

Why on earth are you being so offensive toward me and my comments

eh?

[Quint]

         Well, I didn't think the capitals (P and N) were "coy" and I don't feel "I have a problem with the (Jew) word" I feel these comments made the  style of writing quite sneering and attacking.
          I notice by the way that Paul Daniels (show biz) has got in very deep water for use of the "P" (not meant coyly) word in the press today, all comments are quite condemming.
          I obviously touched a raw nerve somewhere or your style of writing is to abrasive, anyway, back to the books, anyone tried  "A simples Life"   the story of Alexander Orlov

[pcolbeck]

The War of Wars - Robert Harvey

A history of what was the first global war that between Britain and France 1789-1815. A hell of a long war.
I'm about half way through and it's very good. Covers the politics well not just the famous battles. It doesn't spare the famous "hero's". Nelson is described as a strange, vindictive, depressive and harsh man as well as a genius seaman for example.
Well worth it for a good overview of the whole war.

[Bledlow]

Odd is it not that even in this enlightened age the J word is still mostly accepted as ok while (quite rightly) the N or P word is not.

A label for a religious or ethnic group is not inherently offensive, & is rarely seen as such, unless invented for that purpose. It can be used rudely, but that merely shows the attitudes of the person using the word, not how it is generally perceived.

Jew is no more a term of abuse than Spaniard or Hindu. As already said, it is commonly perceived as neutral by Jews, & routinely used by them to reference themselves.

The words Paki & Nigger began as insults, & were always used mostly by those who wished to insult. These words carry an emotional weight which has never been attached to 'Jew', but only to such unambiguously offensive (& meant to be) words as Yid & Kike.

I fear you are suffering from the same mistaken perceptions as those sad people who get het up at the mention of blackboards.

[Quint]

Yes, I read that article and no I do not subscribe to that sort of PC patheticness (sorry bout the made up word) I can speak from first hand experience that the word "Jew" is indeed often used in an extremely offensive and hateful way. Jew, has been used through history and in literature to denote a racially inferior race/group and mainly used by those with a smaller capacity brain, it however does not make it any better when it is spat at you by people with hate in their eyes, I do not suffer from mistaken perceptions on this.
      And for those on topic back to The Queasy Mongoose, (read A Simples Life)

Odd is it not that even in this enlightened age the J word is still mostly accepted as ok while (quite rightly) the N or P word is not.

A label for a religious or ethnic group is not inherently offensive, & is rarely seen as such, unless invented for that purpose. It can be used rudely, but that merely shows the attitudes of the person using the word, not how it is generally perceived.

Jew is no more a term of abuse than Spaniard or Hindu. As already said, it is commonly perceived as neutral by Jews, & routinely used by them to reference themselves.

The words Paki & Nigger began as insults, & were always used mostly by those who wished to insult. These words carry an emotional weight which has never been attached to 'Jew', but only to such unambiguously offensive (& meant to be) words as Yid & Kike.

I fear you are suffering from the same mistaken perceptions as those sad people who get het up at the mention of blackboards.

[LindaG]

Oh, dear.

This all springs from a misconception.

As I recall 'The devil rides out' is about Satanism.

The characters in the book, who worship the devil, refer to Jesus Christ as 'the Jew' but do not refer to other people in this way. 

This appears to be a way of expressing their contempt for this particular person.  The contempt is expressed in their refusal to say his name.   It's part of the plot of the novel, rather than an extension of any widely used form of abuse.

That's not to say people won't refer to one's ethnic or religious background when attempting to bully or intimidate, of course.   The terms 'Jew-boy' 'Paki' 'Nigger' were in everyday use when I was at school.  Children can be such a joy.

It's a horrible book anyway.

[Quint]

You are perfectly right. Queasy Mongoose anyone ? (my local landlord is adamant he won't change the pubs name to this, shame,

Oh, dear.

This all springs from a misconception.

As I recall 'The devil rides out' is about Satanism.

The characters in the book, who worship the devil, refer to Jesus Christ as 'the Jew' but do not refer to other people in this way. 

This appears to be a way of expressing their contempt for this particular person.  The contempt is expressed in their refusal to say his name.   It's part of the plot of the novel, rather than an extension of any widely used form of abuse.

That's not to say people won't refer to one's ethnic or religious background when attempting to bully or intimidate, of course.   The terms 'Jew-boy' 'Paki' 'Nigger' were in everyday use when I was at school.  Children can be such a joy.

It's a horrible book anyway.

[Flying_Monkey]

I obviously touched a raw nerve somewhere or your style of writing is to abrasive

Neither. You just got completely the wrong end of the stick. I was just commenting on your post and you went off on one for reasons best known to yourself.

The point is that it really isn't the same kind of word in itself as Nigger or Paki, although in certain contexts gets used as an insult, because being Jewish both historically and still today, is enough in itself to be a locus of hate. You say you know about this. About a quarter of my family* ended up in the UK because of it. They, by the way, were Jews.

And you really should read some Howard Jacobson. All about Jews who don't like being Jews, Goyim who secretly want to be Jews... anyway, you get the idea. Very much about Jews and being Jewish, by a Jew.

*the rest of us were Scots, French, and American music-hall entertainers. We certainly learned how to laugh at ourselves...

[Flying_Monkey]

Having finished the excellent Known to Evil, I am now taking a trip back in time in terms of Black American crime fiction, and reading Chester Himes's The Big Gold Dream. I hope it is the better recent versions which have stopped replacing the word 'motherfucker' with 'mother-raper'... apparently white audiences were too sensitive to read it how he wanted it.

[Regulator]

'I Shall Wear Midnight' (again)

I'm a bit of a Terry Pratchett fan...

[microphonie]

About a third of the way through Richard Dawkins' - The Greatest Show on Earth: the Evidence For Evolution.

Very clear and concise explanation of the evidence for evolution & rebuttals of the opinions of followers of creationism/ID. Recommended.

[Deano]

Weaveworld - Clive Barker

It was recommended to me about 13 years ago, and rightly so, I think.  The good characters were a bit weak, but the baad characters were enjoyably gruesome, and there was enough of a sense of wonder to make the central tenet plausible. 

Also, not knowing Liverpool, I wondered how accurate the descriptions were, as they seemed quite detailed.

[Flying_Monkey]

Now reading A Tranquil Star, a recently released collection of the late, great Primo Levi's short stories.

[Simonb]

The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov again. I've forgotten so much of it!

[Captain Zep]

Most of the way through "The Bonfire of the Vanities".  Very interesting - I do most of my reading over lunch at work.  I've spent a fair bit of the time looking at Google Maps of New York City looking for the book's locations.  Every character in the book is obsessed with percieved race - everyone has to be "Jewish" or "Irish" or "a WASP".  None of them seems to think that they're all Americans.  Is a fair reflection of American/NYC society?

[clarion]

...I'm reading Denis Wheatley's The Devil Rides Out.

Good grief.  That was crappy.  Utterly inconsistent characters, impossible timelines, and pages 236 to 306 turn out to have been all a dream (sort of).  Hope that hasn't spoiled it for anyone.

The holes in the plot should have been collected together to make a wide open space.

Can't wait to see the film

[citoyen]

Most of the way through "The Bonfire of the Vanities".

I need to read that again. I was discussing it with my wife recently and she mentioned how funny she thought it was. But I don't remember it being funny at all... However, I was about 16-17 first time I read it, so I probably didn't fully appreciate it.

Same with Evelyn Waugh - I was 14 when I first tried to read his Sword of Honour trilogy, on my dad's recommendation. He'd said it was hilarious but I found it dull. Put me off Waugh for ages. Then when I tried Scoop in my mid-20s, I thought it was the funniest book I'd ever read...

d.

[citoyen]

Neither. You just got completely the wrong end of the stick. I was just commenting on your post and you went off on one for reasons best known to yourself.

While I personally agree with you that context is everything, it's a simple fact that some people find the mere mention of certain words grossly offensive. Whether they are right or wrong to be offended, it doesn't hurt to show some sensitivity towards them.

For that reason, I think we need to be careful when in conversation with such people to avoid unnecessary use of potentially offensive words such as nigger, paki, arsehole, wanker, spastic, whore, motherfucker and cunt.

d.

[Nuncio]

The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov again. I've forgotten so much of it!

I'm not going to read it again.  I'm still disturbed from the last time.

[Quisling]

Father Frank by Paul Burke. V good so far. Basic plot - priest doesn't believe in God, drives taxi part time and falls in love. Hilarity ensues etc.

[Quint]

Have just looked on Amazon and shall get this, it pays to be on this thread

Father Frank by Paul Burke. V good so far. Basic plot - priest doesn't believe in God, drives taxi part time and falls in love. Hilarity ensues etc.

[citoyen]

Down & Out In Paris & London.

After finally getting round to Nineteen Eighty-Four last year and absolutely loving it, I've decided it's high time George Orwell featured more prominently in my reading. Such an elegant writer. I've also dipped into some of his essays recently and no matter what the subject, he's always captivating. Can't believe it's taken me this long in life to realise what a fine prose stylist he is.

d.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Metro 2033

Russian TEOTWAWKI novel, set in the Moscow Metro.

Bad translation. Slightly leaden speech. Wierdly very very russian (comparing it to Cancer Ward and A Day in the life of ivan). Hated it at first and persisted for lord knows what reason. It's growing on me and I'm starting to think it is more of a political commentary on the current state of Russia, rather than a zombie novel.

<irrelevant aside> While picking up Metro 2033, I noticed that a large percentage of the libraries sf section has been taken over by vampire fiction. The most stupendously terrific title was 'Some Girls Bite'. That's almost as good as that film called Bikini Zombie Strippers or somesuch thing.