Powered Two wheelers in Cycle Lanes

[Mr Larrington]

Personally, I want a MD670F. 

Linky no worky

[PhilO]

Personally, I want a MD670F. 

Linky no worky

Sorry! 

Try it now. 

[Mrs Pingu]

To that I say, what do you think happens in bus lanes?  Do you honestly think that the lemming pedestrian suddenly becomes less lemming-link? That they don't step out from between two parked buses?  Are you honestly suggesting that because they are in a bus lane, motorcyclists will ride more carefully and defensively - 'cos if you are then I'm afraid I simply don't believe you.

It's not just about the peds (or motorcyclists, for that matter) being less lemming-like - it's also about making that behaviour easier to manage. Wider lanes with better sight lines make the peds easier to avoid and increases the margin for error of the PTW rider - yes, even if they're being silly. But, yes, peds will be more careful. When crossing between two lanes of stationary traffic, they don't expect anything to move and think they can cross without looking - right up to the point at which a filtering motorcyclist (or cyclist) hits them. With an empty lane, they are far more likely to check first - especially given that the next vehicle might weigh 40 tonnes. Also, the fact that motorcyclists also use the lane will make them more likely to look for two-wheelers - which is to the benefit of cyclists.

I don't agree that peds will be any more careful at crossing bus/bike/whatever lanes than they are already. There will also be the added difference that where peds and m/c's come into conflict when filtering the m/c's are generally going quite slowly out of necessity, whereas if m/c's have the breadth of a full lane they are more likely to be travelling at significantly higher speed.

[TimO]

... I don't agree that peds will be any more careful at crossing bus/bike/whatever lanes than they are already. There will also be the added difference that where peds and m/c's come into conflict when filtering the m/c's are generally going quite slowly out of necessity, whereas if m/c's have the breadth of a full lane they are more likely to be travelling at significantly higher speed.

That was one thought that occured to me earlier when reading Spikey's post:

Do you have any solid evidence against PTWs in bus lanes? I.e. not anecdotal stories of ocasional idiots.

So likewise, is there solid evidence for motorcycles in bus lanes?  The information I've seen in some of the TFL documents appears to suggest that there is little statistically significant comparative data showing that things improve (or get worse) for any group.  Of course it's difficult and expensive to do these sort of studies, which is why there is only poor information available.

Incidentally, why "Powered Two Wheelers" ?  Isn't motorcycle a good enough term, or are moped, or other classes of vehicle distinct from motorcycles?  Arguably Power Two Wheeler is ambiguous since that could be said to cover Electrically Assisted Bicycles, which are generally considered to be Pedal Bicycles aside from the specific elements of legislation written with them in mind.

[PhilO]

I don't agree that peds will be any more careful at crossing bus/bike/whatever lanes than they are already.

Perhaps, perhaps not. But that was a minor part of the discussion. Do you at least agree that they'll be more careful crossing a clear lane than moving between two clogged lanes? Because that's where the major benefit appears to lie.

Do you have any solid evidence against PTWs in bus lanes? I.e. not anecdotal stories of ocasional idiots.

So likewise, is there solid evidence for motorcycles in bus lanes?  The information I've seen in some of the TFL documents appears to suggest that there is little statistically significant comparative data showing that things improve (or get worse) for any group.  Of course it's difficult and expensive to do these sort of studies, which is why there is only poor information available.

Well, there's (as already repeatedly mentioned) the fact that many cities around the country already do this, without an obvious increase in casualties. Whether any robust statistics have been/could be generated from those cities is not something I'm qualified to comment on, though.

Incidentally, why "Powered Two Wheelers" ?  Isn't motorcycle a good enough term, or are moped, or other classes of vehicle distinct from motorcycles? 

Yes - a moped is a PTW which is restricted to <=50kph, a scooter is any PTW other than a moped which has its engine and transmission incorporated into the rear suspension swing arm, and a motorcycle is a cycle which has an IC engine incorporated into its main frame.

(Having said that, amongst motorcyclists the destinction is really only made as a consequence of snobbery - in much the same way as 'cyclists' are seen here as distinct from 'PoBs')

Electric bikes are, strictly speaking, power-assisted, not powered, since they also have pedals. An electric bike without pedals would most likely be classed as a moped.

[Spikey]

I don't agree that peds will be any more careful at crossing bus/bike/whatever lanes than they are already. There will also be the added difference that where peds and m/c's come into conflict when filtering the m/c's are generally going quite slowly out of necessity, whereas if m/c's have the breadth of a full lane they are more likely to be travelling at significantly higher speed.

I disagree. From experience (in Bristol) pedestrians are more careful of bus lanes where they expect buses, taxis and PTWs. I think they see it as another lane of traffic, which is not the case when filtering in cycle lanes or  between traffic lanes. Banning PTWs from bus lanes would make them much emptier (less traffic) and pedestrians would become correspondingly less careful of crossing them, resulting in more bike/pedestrian collisions. Essentially a pedestrian who is looking out for PTWs is much more likely to see a bike than one that is only looking for buses and taxis.

And back to the original topic! Although I am infavour of PTWs in bus lanes (which are much wider) I have yet to be convinced (either way) of the merits of allowing PTWs in cycle lanes. While it might make pedestrians more careful of them, thus reducing cycle/pedestrian collisions, it  could also create conflict between PTWs wanting to overtake bikes in narrow bike lanes.

PS. For the record I don't own and have never used a PTW.