Group DIY Permanents

[ludwig]

I much prefere to support and ride a calender event when i can but when I'm busy with work I would probably not do audaxes at all if it were not for perms and diy perms. I don't really care about the points but doing a ride as an audax often gives me that bit more incentive when i do manage to find a window. If I could get others to join me it would be great but I emailed all my club members telling them that I had entered LEL and would be doing a series of training rides both calander and diy and would love to share transport etc but I had no takers. They all seem too interested in their bling bikes to consider anything over 200km. In summary I guess that I would probably have given up on LEL without perms and DIY's this year. I nearly did anyway

[mikewigley]

If I could get others to join me it would be great but I emailed all my club members ...

What club is that?  Your YACF profile has you in the middle of Cardigan Bay.   Royal Navy and Marines CC?

[Weirdy Biker]

All audaxes are equal, but some audaxes are more equal than others.

[Chris S]

Living in an area where there are no calendar events is nature's way of saying why don't you organise some!

Or there's no demand.

I've pondered organising one or more events based in mid Norfolk, but it's a long way from the rail network, and connections with the motorway network poor. Also, I perceive an AUK preference for hills - which are in short supply around here. When you read LEL ride reports, everyone wants to get the flatlands over and done with as quickly as possible.

There have been calendar events based around here before, and they died out. Only Keith's excellent rides from Norwich remain - and they're only rarely over 200km. Oh, and Ken's marvellous Garboldisham rides - again, 200km or less, and for those with cars or near enough to ride.

I suspect demand round here is just too low.

[LEE]

All rides are important and have their pros and cons.
People will ride what works best for them and what they prefer, so to try and persuade people to do what they don't want to doesn't make sense to me.
Some chose not to ride permanents, some can only ride permanents, while others do both.
Whatever works best for you. As long as people are doing the long rides under AUK rules, AUK will survive. Even if it means that it has to adapt, as it has allready been doing ever since it began.

Exactly.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Also, I perceive an AUK preference for hills - which are in short supply around here. When you read LEL ride reports, everyone wants to get the flatlands over and done with as quickly as possible.

I didn't write a ride report but I quite enjoyed the LEL flatlands, being built on a suitable scale...

[Manotea]

Living in an area where there are no calendar events is nature's way of saying why don't you organise some!

Or there's no demand.

I've pondered organising one or more events based in mid Norfolk, but it's a long way from the rail network, and connections with the motorway network poor. Also, I perceive an AUK preference for hills - which are in short supply around here. When you read LEL ride reports, everyone wants to get the flatlands over and done with as quickly as possible.

There have been calendar events based around here before, and they died out. Only Keith's excellent rides from Norwich remain - and they're only rarely over 200km. Oh, and Ken's marvellous Garboldisham rides - again, 200km or less, and for those with cars or near enough to ride.

I suspect demand round here is just too low.

I fear you're correct. Given the choice of driving for 2~3hours I'd head for Chepstow in search of scenary rather than the flatlands of Norfolk. Shame there aren't any hills 'oop north...

But seriously, if you find yourself riding DIYs because there are no events in your area, why not look to cook them up as perms to at least get some local routes listed. If nothing else it will save time planning future rides.

[MSeries]

I fear you're correct. Given the choice of driving for 2~3hours I'd head for Chepstow in search of scenary rather than the flatlands of Norfolk. Shame there aren't any hills 'oop north...

What ? He's right, no hills up north. Not real hills anyway, not anymore. Even I have gone on record this year saying "not doing that ride, too flat for me".

[MSeries]

But seriously, if you find yourself riding DIYs because there are no events in your area, why not look to cook them up as perms to at least get some local routes listed. If nothing else it will save time planning future rides.

That is something I intend to do next year. Have a complete Permanent SR Series from Leeds. The route sheets will vary, some will be turn by turn, taken from other routesheets (with permission) some will be relatively less detailed such as follow A168 to junction with A1(M). Just need to design and test a 600 to complete the set, but I may simply merge a 400 and a 200 or two 300s in the short term. Problem with DIYs is that they are nearly always well over distance.

[Tewdric]

I think that the rise of internet forums, this one in particular, will slowly change the way that Audax works.  As it becomes easier for groups of riders to collaborate over communal perms at times that are more convenient for them than calender rides, so more will do it. 

I welcome it, personally. 

There is a risk that the less popular calender events will wither and die, but it might equally lead to an increase in the overall numbers of active AUKs and end up benefitting calender events in the long term. 

[mattc]

I'm in favour - it's the only way I can guarantee a wheel to suck for 600km.

I think that the rise of internet forums, this one in particular, will slowly change the way that Audax works.  As it becomes easier for groups of riders to collaborate over communal perms at times that are more convenient for them than calender rides, so more will do it. 

I welcome it, personally. 

There is a risk that the less popular calender events will wither and die, but it might equally lead to an increase in the overall numbers of active AUKs and end up benefitting calender events in the long term. 

Rob,
I agree, and I think TG wrote much the same after the AGM.

He also suggested fewer Cal events, with more riders, better controls, etc. These would act as flagship events, social centres for existing members, and good 'beginner' rides.

(I would love to see this extended to mini-'festivals' with a wide range of distances.)

[Manotea]

But seriously, if you find yourself riding DIYs because there are no events in your area, why not look to cook them up as perms to at least get some local routes listed. If nothing else it will save time planning future rides.

That is something I intend to do next year. Have a complete Permanent SR Series from Leeds. The route sheets will vary, some will be turn by turn, taken from other routesheets (with permission) some will be relatively less detailed such as follow A168 to junction with A1(M). Just need to design and test a 600 to complete the set, but I may simply merge a 400 and a 200 or two 300s in the short term. Problem with DIYs is that they are nearly always well over distance.

I've got a nice London-Brighton-London 200km DIY route which I've ridden several times. Swiss Hat has ridden it both clockwise and anticlockwise. I was planning to permify though I fear its appeal may be limited by the fact that the arrivee is the garage on Chiswick Roundabout (eff. M4 J1) and the outrun unavoidably routes through south london. Dead handy for me though!

[Greenbank]

(I would love to see this extended to mini-'festivals' with a wide range of distances.)

Like the Fairies Flat rides; a 300, 200, 150, 100 and a 50 all on the same day with staggered starts. Last year they got 22, 15, 25, 59 and 15 finishers respectively.

I was hoping someone would take on running/promoting the National Series, that used to be a way of selecting/promoting flagship events...

[MSeries]

I think that the rise of internet forums, this one in particular, will slowly change the way that Audax works.  As it becomes easier for groups of riders to collaborate over communal perms at times that are more convenient for them than calender rides, so more will do it. 

I welcome it, personally. 

There is a risk that the less popular calender events will wither and die, but it might equally lead to an increase in the overall numbers of active AUKs and end up benefitting calender events in the long term. 

I agree. I think it is likely that groups of friends who do DIY Perms and Perms together will make a special effort once or twice a year to do some of the 'monument' calendar events. Personally I'd like to see more calendar events starting at times that make it possible to get there and home using public transport such as this weekends Humber Bridge 400, midday start on a Saturday, perfect. Or The Cambrian 300 and 400. Being able to get to the event within my budget (of time and money) is the only real decider for me. I have been very grateful this year to various friends who have let me sleep at their homes or given me lifts, without such help I'd not have been able to do some calendar events and thus would have done more DIYs or maybe less cycling.

[Rob]

I think my record in permanents is something like :-

1999 - 2 * 200k
2007 - 1 * 300k
2008 - 2 * 200k, 1 * 300k, 1 * 400k, 1 * 600k (the only events I did)
2009 - 3 * 200k, 1 * 300k, 2 * 400k

I never really enjoyed permanents previously and only used them to top up points if it was more convenient.

As you can see in the last couple of years, as real life takes hold, perms have become much more useful.   The advantages for me are :-

- I can leave whenever I like to manage the finish times (i.e. 400k started at 2am Sat to be home by midnight, allowing Sunday at home).
- I can start from home which saves 2-3hrs of driving or train.
- I choose the route and can use known roads.   On my 400k I only got the map out once on some Surrey lanes that I didn't know.

I like the company and controls on calendar events, but perms (DIYs in particular) have contributed massively to my change in riding the last couple of years.  

I don't believe that perms detract from calendar events and wouldn't support a move to ban perms if there is a suitable local event.


Rob

[mattc]

(I would love to see this extended to mini-'festivals' with a wide range of distances.)

Like the Fairies Flat rides; a 300, 200, 150, 100 and a 50 ...

There's a few of these sort of things (Rural South is 100 .. 300 in my area), but they seem to get stuck at 300k.

I guess there is a simple timings issue: once you send off your 400 (or 600) riders you have 14 hours to go home/tidy up/sleep before you are needed again. It would be no fun to spend those hours running  200 + 100 events, and THEN start receiving the 400/600 finishers.

[MSeries]

If anyone said to me I couldn't do a DIY on a given date because there is a calendar event on that date that I 'should' do, I would certainly not do either on that date. I'd do the DIY on another date and probably just go cycling on the date in question. No organiser has a right to decide when people can or can not do event and I really doubt that any would attempt to.

[Greenbank]

You have a right to ride whatever/whenever you want, but you don't have an automatic right to have everything you do validated by AUK if you don't follow their rules/advice.

I believe the DIY organisers have advice to discourage people to ride DIYs when there is a *local and suitable* calendar ride on the same day. Obviously, doing a DIY because you need to be finished and elsewhere by 6pm means that doing a local calendar 200 with a 9am start time is unsuitable. So would a ride that's 30 mins drive away if you don't have a car (or don't have access to a car that day). Or you may be looking for a nice flat ride as part of recovery and the local event is a 4000m climbing super grimpeur monster. The definitions of "local" and "suitable" are up for discussion between you and the DIY organiser. It's not a simple case of "there's a calendar event 20km from you so do that instead."

I don't know how often DIYs are actually refused but I would hope they are *where appropriate*.

I'm trying to find where I read the advice that you should try and do a calendar event rather than a DIY, but I can't find it right now...

It's not on the DIY PDF although that does have a comment about group DIY rides (getting back on topic):-

"
A group of friends can get together to ride a DIY Permanent - this only works if:

1. You already have the cards
2. The event is a private ride ie not advertised in competition with AUK Calendar events
"

Doesn't get more official than that given that it's a page from Arrivee written, I assume, by Sheila.

[Manotea]

The reality is that the Orgs are an accomodating bunch (and devilishly handsome with it) who will help out where they can. I like to support local events but sometimes I'm simply not available on the appointed hour, in which case whats the option? Reach an accomodation or lose the rider who will wander off and do something else. Its not usually a problem to sort something out.

[Chris S]

One or two auks probably take the piss.
One or two organisers are probably overly tetchy on the matter.

I'm sure the rest of auks, and organisers are completely reasonable about it.

[Grandad]

Also, I perceive an AUK preference for hills - which are in short supply around here. When you read LEL ride reports, everyone wants to get the flatlands over and done with as quickly as possible.

I think that is a comment made in respect of very long rides - I've heard it many times about Bernies Long Flat Ones.

Like the Fairies Flat rides; a 300, 200, 150, 100 and a 50 all on the same day with staggered starts. Last year they got 22, 15, 25, 59 and 15 finishers respectively.

This year the 5 rides attracted a total of 171 entries.  Last year 165 and the year before (the first year of the current format) 124. Many come from London but a number travel a lot further, possibly linking the ride to some other reason for travelling so far.

[Ivo]

I think that the rise of internet forums, this one in particular, will slowly change the way that Audax works.  As it becomes easier for groups of riders to collaborate over communal perms at times that are more convenient for them than calender rides, so more will do it. 

I welcome it, personally. 

There is a risk that the less popular calender events will wither and die, but it might equally lead to an increase in the overall numbers of active AUKs and end up benefitting calender events in the long term. 

The internet also makes it easier for organisers to inform about their events, get assistance at the far end of the route from local riders and create a group feeling passing their usual limits of influence.
I used a few German internet fora to give my events an international touch. Without the internet this would have been a lot harder.
I started revamping some of my event routes to get them accpeted as AUK permanents. And I've allready asked Andy to hand me a stack of DIY cards the day before LEL so the few AUK members in my area can start doing DIY's too.
In short, I don't see any conflicts, it's just a matter of getting people on their bikes and riding.

[Weirdy Biker]

One or two auks probably take the piss.
One or two organisers are probably overly tetchy on the matter.

I'm sure the rest of auks, and organisers are completely reasonable about it.

Bingo.

I like to think there is nobody on this forum that would organise a group DIY in direct competition with a local calendar event on the same date.  Put simply, there is a thread of fairness and egality amongst most randonneurs.  I suspect any transgressors would be condemned heretical and beaten with a bicycle pump until they repented.

All a bit of a storm in a teacup, imo.

[Hummers]

I like to think there is nobody on this forum that would organise a group DIY in direct competition with a local calendar event on the same date.  Put simply, there is a thread of fairness and egality amongst most randonneurs.  I suspect any transgressors would be condemned heretical and beaten with a bicycle pump until they repented.

*raises hand, then drops shorts and bends over top tube, white milky buttocks quivering in anticipaion*

Errrm.... I organised the Porkers 400 on the same weekend as the Denmead 400.

It was the only slot in the diary that I had for the 400 as part of the Wessex SR and three other riders joined me - all on this forum.

In my defence:

1. Me and at least one other rider didn't fancy the early start/finish time of the Denmead 400 calendar event
2. The Denmead ride was an X rated event so only a cup of tea up from a perm IMHO
3. Whilst I'm sure the Demead 400 is a great ride, the Porkers is a legendary ride with those AAA points for extra value
4. There were 15 riders on the Denmead 400. Quite respectable for a 400 judging by the numbers talked about on this thread.
5. Had the Wessex rides: Hardboiled, Porkers and Hellfire been calendar events, I would have made sure my weekends were rearranged for me to ride them.
6. All of the above + I didn't really think my ride would impact attendance on the Denmead event; e.g. nobody I asked to join me on the Porkers turned me down on the basis that they were riding the Denmead 400.

*waits for the first thwack of a Blackburn*

H

[Ian H]

The only prohibition is with regard to organising a DIY on the same route as a calendar event without the organiser's permission - on the day or at another time. However, as with all AUK activities, we rely on the goodwill of the individual members.