I've seen someone get very very ill on a ketosis-based diet. Going into ketosis is fine for a short period but not long-term.
'calories' is a poor way to measure the energy content of food anyway, since it takes no account of the processes and wastage in the digestive system. Nothing wrong with first law of thermodynamics, just people applying it in an overly simplistic way.
I am wondering if this isn't a slightly "re-packed" version of the Atkins diet?
However, the risks associated with Atkins are pretty well known.
I suspect that the diet you are
To make exercise work for weight loss you also need to be exercising at the right intensity.Er, yeah. So a combination of easy commutes, hard cross training, turbo/intervals and a fair old wodge of audaxing doesn't contain 'the right intensity'? I'd beg to differ.
Out of interest, what does this ketonogenic diet recommend for breakfast? I only ask as I have found this is a make or break for all diets. Poor or no breakfast will always make it difficult to lose weight.Eggs, mostly. Or bacon and eggs. You can eat whatever you like- as long as you limit the amount of carbohydrates you have, and try to keep protein consumption moderate.
Today we did our first ketogenic audax. Calorie consumption: 1400kcal. 204k, 10hr 50 (inc stops) 20+mph winds and gusts over 30mph. And most importantly: I'm not hungry.
I think I'm sold.
Did you feel bonked out?Not at all helly, it was a revelation.
I really never rode at more than 8mph on the flat if I was low on carbs.
There is No Such Thing as an essential carbohydrate!
ETA: mrcharly - nearly all the vitamins and minerals we need can be found in meat, so as long as your're not veggie, you shouldn't need to supplement. Veggies may need to.
Another winner this weekend - Cauliflower Mash. It's more like couscous in texture, but really filling - masses of fibre, and very low carb.
My reading to date has suggested to me that about 25% of the brain's energy needs must come in the form of glucose, the other 75% can come from ketones (once adapted). The missing 25% is provided by the liver, which converts dietary protein into glucose through gluconeogenesis.
Another winner this weekend - Cauliflower Mash. It's more like couscous in texture, but really filling - masses of fibre, and very low carb.
I also turn out to be a carb burner rather than a fat burner, which I'm taking as licence to eat more toast.
It is interesting to hear how different people get on with the low carb approach. I've tried it a couple of times and both times lost weight but felt absolutely awful - dizzy and run down and generally a bit crap. My dad OTOH gets on with it really well and has stuck to it for protracted periods of time (until he is tempted away by a roast potato). Anyway, there was an article in the guardian today exploring the use of lab fitness tests to determine what sport you are most suited to (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/jan/28/got-what-it-takes-olympic-athlete). The following comment caught my eye:QuoteI also turn out to be a carb burner rather than a fat burner, which I'm taking as licence to eat more toast.
I wonder if this might explain why for example I don't get on very well with low carb but my dad does.....? Unfortunately the article didn't seem to expand on the concept....
Any suggestions for vegetarians in your paleo diet books?Forget it.
I remain sceptical as to the long-term health benefits of the ketogenic diet.We're all going to die of something.
That's a paraphrase of nonsense, then, I'm afraid. Silly unscientific book, I have to conclude.They're big on inuits, native american tribes of various descriptions and african nomads- all of whom eat masses of meat.
On my brief reading of info about the diet, one slight disadvantage is a huge increase in cholesterol in the body. Not a problem for some, but for those coming from genetic history with a predisposition to cholesterol problems, I think I'd give this diet a miss.I don't know where you get that from, the evidence I've seen is that it lowers cholesterol? Although, obviously, from biased sources.
In adults, common side effects include weight loss, constipation, raised cholesterol levels
Besides its role in the synthesis of ketone bodies, HMG-CoA is also an intermediate in the synthesis of cholesterol.
Prospective studies indicate that VLCDs improve the lipoprotein profile independently of weight loss. Although not as effective at lowering LDL cholesterol (LDL-C), VLCDs consistently improve postabsorptive and postprandial triacylglycerols (TAGs), HDL cholesterol (HDL-C), and the distribution of LDL-C subfractions to a greater extent than low-fat diets.
Just throwing in a curveball. I'd much rather 7 teaspoons of sugar than a man made chemical called aspartame to sweeten!
Writing & all that came much, much later. There was a longer time of agriculture without writing than there has been of writing.That's a paraphrase of nonsense, then, I'm afraid. Silly unscientific book, I have to conclude.They're big on inuits, native american tribes of various descriptions and african nomads- all of whom eat masses of meat.
Having said that, gathering enough nuts, vegetables and fruits takes a long long time. 'We' didn't eat much carbs till we got agriculture. About the same time we developed writing, reading and all those other modern fads. There's also a seasonality- we eat fruits in autumn>the carbs make us fat>we need the fat for the winter.....
I just like to add that I'm not automatically against the diet, just think that all things need considering
http://weightology.net/?p=265
Haters? Odd choice of word. It was a reasonable critique.
Haters? Odd choice of word. It was a reasonable critique.Very reasonable. On first glance I was preparing to dismiss it (I have an irrational dislike and distrust of overly polished and smug looking young americans). But it is a reasoned and reasonable article, carefully backed by cross-references to fact sources.
I'm not saying he's right. But he prompted me to think more about the problem.
I'm wondering if the reduction of carbs in my diet is making me more sympathetic to conspiracy theories.
There's an awful lot of money being made from carbohydrates. It's not in the interests of global conglomerates for fat people to stop eating sugar. Who funds the research? Gatorade?
I find it very hard to understand why we evolved such a crappy fueling scheme as the carbohydrate/insulin/glycogen model - that at best gives you a few hours of activity before you have to eat again, or fall over - whilst sidelining a much more efficient, cleaner, and longer lasting fuel supply - in the lipid/ketone model.Two things:
Which leads me to think - perhaps our fixation with carbohydrate has in fact flipped us all around. That in fact, we evolved to primarily use the lipid/ketone system and subsist on minimal quantities of carbs (berries, nuts and leafy stuff - perhaps tubers), and our carb/insulin/glycogen fuel supply is actually an emergency supply for rapid response such as flight or fight, which requires fast acting energy input that only anerobic chemistry (glycogen) can provide.
The large quantities of carbs in the typical western diet has to be processed by insulin. If it's not used immediately for fuel, it's stored in the fat cells for later, and we get a bit fatter. Whilst this is going on, stored fat is preserved and you are fueled mainly by dietary fat and glycogen.
If you've got obese, and want to lose body fat, you need to sideline insulin as much as possible, so as to free up the mobilisation of stored fat. Several forms of diet do this indirectly - even just cutting calories does, because proportionately you cut more carbs than anything else. Removing sugar and refined carbs also helps, as these give the biggest insulin response.
The problem with cutting calories but still eating a high carb diet is, you get hungry. Equally, if you exercise more - you get hungry.
In a time when we didn't have heating, quick energy sources that either got used or stored as fat are a great thing..
Very poor choice of words indeed. Perhaps you should think about why you wrote it.Haters? Odd choice of word. It was a reasonable critique.
Poor choice of words. Taubes is a science journalist. He looks for inconsistencies in research - and quite possibly makes his own as the critique alludes to - and this doesn't win you any friends.
I think there's a lot of mileage in what Taubes has to say. It's why I'm experimenting...
I didn't in any way wish to cast aspersions on your family, mrcharly.That would apply to the family. My father, having lost Mum, Dad, brother (and another brother with serious heart disease), was terrified of obesity and horribly critical of people who were fat. His immediate family were all huge people - and on the whole, physically inactive (so entirely unlike you and boab). My first wife was (and is) a 'substantial' lady and my father was very critical of this.
But by and large and genetics aside, CVD is mostly avoidable. Drug intervention does wonders for keeping people alive and well.
My doctor once said to me "Chris, two thirds of the people in my waiting room are there because of their lifestyle choices."
Surely, obesity isn't an evolutionary advantage. It makes you less fertile, less able to escape, less fit for survival and reproduction. I can't think of any wild mammals, no matter how as lib their feeding regime who get fat unless there is a specific reason for it. Hibernation, starvation they're 'planning for', insulation against cold water, desert water storage.I'm afraid you've missed the point. Of course obesity isn't an evolutionary advantage - but that doesn't matter to evolution. Wild animals don't have the opportunity to become obese, so they don't become obese. Therefore, they don't evolve internal mechanisms for preventing it. They don't need such mechanisms. There is no evolutionary pressure to evolve them, no way in which they can evolve. There are external mechanisms which work perfectly well, some of which you allude to.
Ever such a lot of fad diets (the one where you cut out gluten, the one where you can't have carbs, the one where you can only squirt lemon juice in your eyes and beat your head against a wall in place of meals) have a whole lot of hokum surrounding the one detail of "stop eating processed food."
I've lost count of the number of colleagues who have brightly told me that they learned they were gluten intolerant after losing half a stone. The idea that it might just be the loss of their daily Krispy Kreme rather than an actual food intolerance didn't seem to have occurred. Ditto people who have ascertained that their blood group doesn't permit Krispy Kremes, or found that carbs disagree with them via Atkins, and people who are trying to eat a stone age diet, or even the ones on the Maple Bloody Syrup Diet or the ones who are quite possibly picking through sheep entrails to divine their perfect diet: they all have the one thing in common. Step away from the lovely delicious processed cake.
Until you realise that some of us are ditching the calories from that lovely delicious processed cake, to the same calories from lovely delicious processed double cream. And losing weight.You do make me wonder if the real EvilSubstance here is sugar, in its many forms.
If I could eat butter with butter on it, I would.
Until you realise that some of us are ditching the calories from that lovely delicious processed cake, to the same calories from lovely delicious processed double cream. And losing weight.
Until you realise that some of us are ditching the calories from that lovely delicious processed cake, to the same calories from lovely delicious processed double cream. And losing weight.You do make me wonder if the real EvilSubstance here is sugar, in its many forms.
If I could eat butter with butter on it, I would.
Ever such a lot of fad diets (the one where you cut out gluten, the one where you can't have carbs, the one where you can only squirt lemon juice in your eyes and beat your head against a wall in place of meals) have a whole lot of hokum surrounding the one detail of "stop eating processed food."
I've lost count of the number of colleagues who have brightly told me that they learned they were gluten intolerant after losing half a stone. The idea that it might just be the loss of their daily Krispy Kreme rather than an actual food intolerance didn't seem to have occurred. Ditto people who have ascertained that their blood group doesn't permit Krispy Kremes, or found that carbs disagree with them via Atkins, and people who are trying to eat a stone age diet, or even the ones on the Maple Bloody Syrup Diet or the ones who are quite possibly picking through sheep entrails to divine their perfect diet: they all have the one thing in common. Step away from the lovely delicious processed cake.
Julian's posted this -> over there somewhere. Sounds really reasonable, doesn't it?
Until you realise that some of us are ditching the calories from that lovely delicious processed cake, to the same calories from lovely delicious processed double cream. And losing weight.
Flour isn't necessarily any more refined than just being ground up. And that's not what we've been discussing, is it? Cutting out refined sugar & refined starch isn't the same as a ketogenic diet.
Flour isn't necessarily any more refined than just being ground up. And that's not what we've been discussing, is it? Cutting out refined sugar & refined starch isn't the same as a ketogenic diet.
I think one key is the assumption that one has to eat as soon as one feels hungry. If I feel hungry half way between meals, I'll eat only if I feel that the hunger will become distracting. I think that slight hunger means "I can eat", not "I should eat".
Well, unless you're riding an audax, or the like. ;)
Today we did our first ketogenic audax. Calorie consumption: 1400kcal. 204k, 10hr 50 (inc stops) 20+mph winds and gusts over 30mph. And most importantly: I'm not hungry.
Stop inventing attitudes & attributing them to me! This isn't (at least on my part) either personal, or about you!I think one key is the assumption that one has to eat as soon as one feels hungry. If I feel hungry half way between meals, I'll eat only if I feel that the hunger will become distracting. I think that slight hunger means "I can eat", not "I should eat".Assuming that people eat as soon as they're even slightly hungry and that's what makes them fat is making out they're weak willed and lazy. Thanks.
Well, unless you're riding an audax, or the like. ;)
The main principles of this diet seem to be to reduce calorie intake, increase (or maintain) activity, and reduce processed food consumption.
Curiously close to vegan and vegetarian principles. ;D
With respect, I commented and I was borderline obese once. I'm not anymore and I didn't try any fad diets. I ate the same foods less often, in smaller portions and increased exercise.
ETA: sorry, that's really defensive. But really, smug thin people lecturing to the fatties is almost as bad as the childless telling you how to raise your children...
...the same foods less often, in smaller portions and increased exercise.But I think the point that boabacca may have been making, if she'll forgive me for putting words in her mouth (now that I no longer fill her gob with caik), is that for _her_ that mechanism didn't work. It wasn't a failing of willpower, and she is consuming the same amount of calories now as when she was not experimenting with the ketogenic diet but with, in _her_ case, less hunger and more weight loss.
It's a simple and well accepted mechanism.
We all know why people gain weight, I gained half a stone in the three months before Christmas. I lost my willpower.
...
There was a documentary on the BBC a few months back which you can find on YouTube "The men who made us fat".
I find when eating those foods I get what he describes and feel hungry in a lot shorter time than I do when eating unprocessed food.
By the "feeling hungry" I just get the empty feeling. Probably not really hungry but just a blood sugar drop that my body wants more sugar.
Is that by the BMI scale? Load of bollocks is that scale. According to it I am overweight now and was borderline obese when I did the easter arrow last year. People who meet me generally say I'm skinny.Quote from: boabaccaWith respect, I commented and I was borderline obese once.
ETA: sorry, that's really defensive. But really, smug thin people lecturing to the fatties is almost as bad as the childless telling you how to raise your children...
.... she is consuming the same amount of calories now as when she was not experimenting with the ketogenic diet but with, in _her_ case, less hunger and more weight loss.This is probably the last word that needs saying on the subject.
I was well aware of the study at the time, but chose not to write about it because, as I explain below, I believe it really is a rubbish piece of ‘research’ which tells us essentially nothing about the impact of low carbohydrate diets on health
This is a good video about Paleo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U36XJaETbh8&feature=youtu.be
<pedant> Weren't potatoes brought to Europe from America only 400 years ago?
Our caveman ancestors would never have eaten them!
Further our ancestors were much more likely to be physical active (less automation) and as such didn't *need* to work-out.
I do like (and mostly believe in) the paleo diet, but some of the preaching is bullshit.
I'm racking my brains here (and it hurts!) but isn't there some 'xyz paradox theory' that addresses the question 'why are' the Chinese/Italians not fat when they eat so much rice/pasta'?
Yeah. Except..Asian diets usually rely very heavily on white rice, one of the big no-no's in the Paleo diet, yet they have traditionally been slim?
Yeah. Except..Asian diets usually rely very heavily on white rice, one of the big no-no's in the Paleo diet, yet they have traditionally been slim?
The trouble is, is that the Asian diet is evolving, along with rice, we're eating more meat and fat, and now they think white rice is what's causing the boom in diabetes.
You could say people everywhere, regardless of their diet, have been "traditionally" slim,. It's only in the last few generations that people in the west have got overweight. So for thousands of years, grain based diets have been fine but suddenly we're told actually grain based diets are the causes of obesity. It just happens that this is at the same as people move to a sedentary life style and being able to eat unlimited amounts of food. Also note the amount of low cost but rich energy dense foods (actually snacks) now available.Absolutely right. The equation carbohydrate rich diet=obesity does not add up.
It's a "disease of affluence". Just look at the average person in developing countries with their grain and rice (carb) based diets, are they overweight?
I think it is the way grains and starch are processed in modern food that is the problem. Processed sugar, white flour, refined fats, etc.
See that makes it tempting, the lack of bonkitude. But then you say it cuts the top end out a bit and frankly even my top end is slow so not sure I can lose any of it.
*Ponders*
Second 200 audax done on keto today. We pushed a wee bit harder than last time - first 30k at 29kph in fact; and overall, 25kph moving average. We also rode it as 2x100 non-stop stints.Indeed, but I wonder if it is the lack of carbs or rather the reduction of eating episodes and/or portion sizes that are the reason for this?
As previously, no hunger bonks and no lack of energy. We stopped half way for some low carb/high fat lunch, but TBH neither of us were particularly hungry. It's liberating not having that empty feeling when you're running low on carbs.
Interesting stuff!
Indeed, but I wonder if it is the lack of carbs or rather the reduction of eating episodes and/or portion sizes that are the reason for this?
I find when I consciously try to lose weight that I do not snack, whether that be on nuts, fruit, chocolate whatever. A massive consequence is that I am hungry less often and at meal times I fill up quicker.
It's great that you have found something that works well for you, but on a wider scale it could well be consequential. :)
Indeed, but I wonder if it is the lack of carbs or rather the reduction of eating episodes and/or portion sizes that are the reason for this?Definitely not. You make out we've never tried to lose weight before. O how I wish that were true.
I find when I consciously try to lose weight that I do not snack, whether that be on nuts, fruit, chocolate whatever. A massive consequence is that I am hungry less often and at meal times I fill up quicker.
Yeah. Except..Asian diets usually rely very heavily on white rice, one of the big no-no's in the Paleo diet, yet they have traditionally been slim?
The trouble is, is that the Asian diet is evolving, along with rice, we're eating more meat and fat, and now they think white rice is what's causing the boom in diabetes.
"The Asian diet"? Perhaps you mean the southern Chinese diet, rather than the Indian, Central Asian, Mongolian, South East Asian etc diet.
Eg, white floor. You could use white flour and make it into pasta. Then add a tomato sauce, with a little meat for flavouring. Add a side dish of say vegetable/potato salad and you have a healthy, nutritious and filling meal.
If anyone catches fire, let us know ;D
"The Asian diet"? Perhaps you mean the southern Chinese diet, rather than the Indian, Central Asian, Mongolian, South East Asian etc diet.
The biggest problem is that if you want a quick snack and have nothing prepared, sugar/grain filled snacks are way easier to get hold of.
I know some riders find fatty food on the bike a Real Problem - horror stories of audaxers parking their chips in the hedge soon after a control stop :sick:.
I've also experimented with cheesy versions, and my new favourite, Marmite & Cheese :)
I know some riders find fatty food on the bike a Real Problem - horror stories of audaxers parking their chips in the hedge soon after a control stop :sick:.
Worst for that IME was the climb out of New Quay after lunch at the Mariners' Café on the Brevet Cymru...
I've also experimented with cheesy versions, and my new favourite, Marmite & Cheese :)
I've tried the recipe myself (thanks Chris :thumbsup:) and can confirm that it's incredibly simple. I can see that some might want to experiment as the olive oil taste of the basic recipe might not be to everyone's liking!
lunch at the Mariners' Café on the Brevet Cymru...
I know some riders find fatty food on the bike a Real Problem - horror stories of audaxers parking their chips in the hedge soon after a control stop :sick:.
Worst for that IME was the climb out of New Quay after lunch at the Mariners' Café on the Brevet Cymru...
Curiously enough, that's exactly the one I had in mind :D.
ISTR hearing some retching noises coming from behind the hedge near the top, when I rode it!
I've just remembered boab telling me my flapjacks had too much fat in them. I used to find them very good. :)I know. I was just thinking about that the other day.
Diets don't work. All the research, on every kind of diet, shows that 5 years later the number of people who have kept the weight off is tiny. We lose weight, and we put it all back on. We put it all back on because the food is still there, and we're hungry. It's nice.
So, ketonauts, what's for breakfast on audax day?
I've also experimented with cheesy versions, and my new favourite, Marmite & Cheese :)
I've tried the recipe myself (thanks Chris :thumbsup:) and can confirm that it's incredibly simple. I can see that some might want to experiment as the olive oil taste of the basic recipe might not be to everyone's liking!
So, ketonauts, what's for breakfast on audax day?I used to love cereal for breakfast and this was a big doubt in my ability to keep to the paleo diet. I now make Paleo Granola (http://paleomg.com/paleo-granola/) which is easy to make and very convenient to have in the morning or even taking in to work.
That's a lot like the mix for our paleo bars we tried this weekend.So, ketonauts, what's for breakfast on audax day?I used to love cereal for breakfast and this was a big doubt in my ability to keep to the paleo diet. I now make Paleo Granola (http://paleomg.com/paleo-granola/) which is easy to make and very convenient to have in the morning or even taking in to work.
So, ketonauts, what's for breakfast on audax day?I used to love cereal for breakfast and this was a big doubt in my ability to keep to the paleo diet. I now make Paleo Granola (http://paleomg.com/paleo-granola/) which is easy to make and very convenient to have in the morning or even taking in to work.
So, ketonauts, what's for breakfast on audax day?When I have an O*clock start - and inevitable get up at the very last minute - I often just grab a handful of peanuts. That seems to fuel me quite a long way, tastes nice, easily digested. Not as far as my preferred massive bowl of yog+muesli but still good.
I have seen the future, and it is... Kippers for breakfast.Sorry. Toast & jam is a BIG no-no.
Back in the day I used to travel on business by train, I'd always breakfast on the train (the poor man's first class ticket), and have Kippersand lashings of jammy toast and tea.Perfect.
Kippers on the train?
I have seen the future, and it is... Kippers for breakfast.
Back in the day I used to travel on business by train, I'd always breakfast on the train (the poor man's first class ticket), and have Kippers and lashings of jammy toast and tea. Perfect.
Presuming I last on this diet until LEL, I'm wondering what on earth I'll eat during the ride.We were thinking the same. We've paid upfront for an all in ride, where we'll want to sleep off route and
Considering that most of the food available at controls will be rather carb heavy, might it be a question of bouncing the controls and consuming other food on the journey instead?
I'm considering an experiment; essentially - eat as I would normally have done; so embrace the Apple Pie and Custard, and wallow in the Beans on Toast. And then see what happens to my keto-state. Will it break my ketosis, or will the fact that I'm exercising soak up all the insulin/glycogen, with the resumption of ketosis soon after we've finished?
I'm considering an experiment; essentially - eat as I would normally have done; so embrace the Apple Pie and Custard, and wallow in the Beans on Toast. And then see what happens to my keto-state. Will it break my ketosis, or will the fact that I'm exercising soak up all the insulin/glycogen, with the resumption of ketosis soon after we've finished?
Good luck!
I'm mainly thinking of the chances of you surving while tucking into cake in front of boab if she's not having any ;D
Nuts. Amazing wee storehouses of nutrients, very calorie dense.
...then see what happens to my keto-state. Will it break my ketosis, or will the fact that I'm exercising soak up all the insulin/glycogen, with the resumption of ketosis soon after we've finished?.As a fellow keto-adapted cyclist... DON'T DO IT!
...... Blood ketones before the ride: 0.4mmol (so only just "in ketosis"). When I got home from the ride, it was 2.9mmol which is pretty high, and a good sign. ETA: Sunday a.m.: 1.2mmol :thumbsup:Chris - how exactly are you measuring your ketones - are you doing the pricking-your-finger thing?
What, pray, does "VAM" refer to?VAM: 344. Rubbish.
Out of interest, what do you think is good?
Well, we did 526 on the same ride last year
...... Blood ketones before the ride: 0.4mmol (so only just "in ketosis"). When I got home from the ride, it was 2.9mmol which is pretty high, and a good sign. ETA: Sunday a.m.: 1.2mmol :thumbsup:Chris - how exactly are you measuring your ketones - are you doing the pricking-your-finger thing?
And from the 'Uts thread .....VAM: 344. Rubbish.What, pray, does "VAM" refer to?
............There are two ways to measure ketones at home. .....I guess you're doing the latter then; OK if you can tolerate needles!
You live and learn - fascinating. I should have made the connection, having read about the infamous Dr. Ferrari and his hill tests. That'll be yet another self-evaluation tool I'll be avoiding using - there's only so much humiliation a fellow can stand!
A direct translation of "velocità ascensionale media" is "mean (average) ascent velocity" leading to an expansion of the acronym in English as Velocity, Ascent, Mean.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_ascent_velocity
I have an uneasy feeling that since the low carb proponents admit that "it doesn't work for everyone" I'm going to find once again that I'm in that category where nothing seems to work! (Or am I just being defeatist!?)I think I'm in that category too, PP. We committed to this for 3 months and that's just about up, and having lost a bit in the first couple or three weeks, since then I've lost nothing, and my weight graphs give a really pretty pattern of water retention through the week:
I have an uneasy feeling that since the low carb proponents admit that "it doesn't work for everyone" I'm going to find once again that I'm in that category where nothing seems to work! (Or am I just being defeatist!?)I think I'm in that category too, PP. We committed to this for 3 months and that's just about up, .........
This blog post (from a scary looking guy with a Truck and a compound bow - clearly a Good 'Ol Boy) has some interesting stuff, that I think Vintagesteel was alluding to: Clickity (http://primalnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/keto-adaptation-vs-low-carb-limbo.html).Crikey, yes - scary!
This blog post (from a scary looking guy with a Truck and a compound bow - clearly a Good 'Ol Boy) has some interesting stuff, that I think Vintagesteel was alluding to: Clickity (http://primalnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/keto-adaptation-vs-low-carb-limbo.html).
The 'Paleo for Athletes' book says that you should eat Paleo except immediately before, during and after exercise when it's ok to eat carbs.
Pros:+1
Steady energy flow all day.
No need for bonk rations on audaxes. In fact, food for fuel is a complete non-issue on rides.
Improved appetite management: An end to feeling at the mercy of food.
Currently, I can forget about food for hours at a time. I can eat only at mealtimes and be fine with that, whatever I'm doing. Keeping under 2,000 calories eaten is easy. I eat breakfast, or not. I can skip breakfast, lunch, or tea, if I'm not hungry, and sometimes I'm not hungry :o. There's no compensatory eating later if I do eat less at a meal.
I generally eat more protein than is recommended and this is probably a contributory factor to the lack-of-weightloss, but I can't bring myself to eat cream or butter rather than cheese. The bodybuilders reckon you need more protein if you're to build muscle and lose fat, and I'd rather do that than not. :shrug:I hear you. My experience though is that FAT is the key to success. Avoiding things like cream and butter may be closing a door that, if open, could kick-start and maintain your weight loss?
I also have the slowest metabolism in the world- me & the Galapogas Giant Tortoises, and I'm starting to wonder if there's anything I could do to attain the weightloss that should be theoretically possible given the calories in/calories out I process.
I'll be sticking to it for the foreseeable. Doing without cake, biscuits and bread is much easier than you think it'll be. And alcohol hasn't been a regular feature of my diet for years, so I barely notice that's gone.
This blog post (from a scary looking guy with a Truck and a compound bow - clearly a Good 'Ol Boy) has some interesting stuff, that I think Vintagesteel was alluding to: Clickity (http://primalnorth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/keto-adaptation-vs-low-carb-limbo.html).
I have an uneasy feeling that since the low carb proponents admit that "it doesn't work for everyone" I'm going to find once again that I'm in that category where nothing seems to work! (Or am I just being defeatist!?)I think I'm in that category too, PP. We committed to this for 3 months and that's just about up, and having lost a bit in the first couple or three weeks, since then I've lost nothing, and my weight graphs give a really pretty pattern of water retention through the week:
(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae7/fboab/th_Libra_2013-03-18.png)
The dips are pre-audax, not post.
I've been pretty demoralised about it, but, the big win for me is hunger management. Here we are post-audax, traditionally Teh Hunger Zone and I haven't eaten the entire contents of my shelves.
I've stopped counting calories/carbs/exercise as it was just making me miserable- whatever my supposed deficit it made/makes no difference on the scale. Bollocks to that.
I suppose I'm looking for a way of eating where my weight is managed without willpower, and unless I ride about 100k/day I don't think I'll ever find it. Willpower is a really bad way of doing anything; it's tiring and doomed to failure.
In the meantime, I'll stay at 85kg and eat whatever I fancy- as long as it doesn't have carbs- and at least I won't feel too deprived?
I was losing weight before Christmas, and in January but not in Feb & March. My graphs have more data points than Simon's, so it's more obvious that the trend is only because of Dec & Jan. I appear to be losing again now, but we'll see.
Don't get too demoralised. Look at the trend line on the yacf graphs, and yours is firmly pointing down.
http://www.simonproven.me.uk/yacf-weight-graphs/yacf-weights-BMI-graph.0.png
My fiancée has joined me in this diet, and is starting to wish she'd waited. She's lost so much weight that the wedding dress she was fitted for no longer fits, and needed to be adjusted again.
She's had to introduce some carbs back into her diet again to try and maintain her current weight, so that the dress will still fit in 3 weeks time.
And she's hating being back on the carbs again. She feels so hungry, it was something that had gone away while on the keto diet, and wasn't missed.
She'll be back on it again as soon as the Wedding is over :)
.......... It's nice to know that mid-audax cake is not a complete disaster keto-wise, ...........................That's encouraging ....... not as much as the beer bit though ......... ;D
I thought sweat became less salty as heat adaptation improved anyway...
What are almond buns? These sound tasty.
Have any of you HFLC dieters had a blood cholesterol test done since starting this diet? I try to follow a Paleo lifestyle and my total cholesterol was recently measured to be 7.7 mmol (NHS recomend <5). My HDL (good cholesterol) had also gone up so the ratio of total/hdl had gone down since my cholesterol was last checked in '09 when I ate a pescatarian (fish and veg) diet. So although this ratio of total/hdl has gone down and I am less risk of a heart attack my GP still wants to see my total cholesterol figure lower. I wondered what your experiences were?What is - or was - a Paleo lifestyle? Presumably most of it can only be conjecture.
I'd quite like a full blood check, but it's not something you can just turn up at your GP and demand.
Y'know, the very concept of Bullet-proof Coffee sounds revolting:
1. Strong black coffee
+
2. 25g Organic grass-fed unsalted butter
+
3. 2 Tsps Coconut oil
+
4. A blender
But it's actually quite yummy - and makes a great substitute for breakfast.
Have any of you HFLC dieters had a blood cholesterol test done since starting this diet? I try to follow a Paleo lifestyle and my total cholesterol was recently measured to be 7.7 mmol (NHS recomend <5). My HDL (good cholesterol) had also gone up so the ratio of total/hdl had gone down since my cholesterol was last checked in '09 when I ate a pescatarian (fish and veg) diet. So although this ratio of total/hdl has gone down and I am less risk of a heart attack my GP still wants to see my total cholesterol figure lower. I wondered what your experiences were?What is - or was - a Paleo lifestyle? Presumably most of it can only be conjecture.
Maybe I shouldn't worry about my cholesterol. See this Aus programme (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/lipid-hypothesis/5257/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+drmikenutritionblog+%28The+Blog+of+Michael+R.+Eades%2C+M.D.%29).
Quoting Eades "arteriosclerosis is both an inflammatory disease and caused by cholesterol"
BTW - I've lost 1.5Kg this week. Fat doesn't make you fat, it would seem.Sounds like you're just eating less fat than you were.
Best article I've read on the Paleo Diet (http://hells-ditch.com/2012/08/archaeologists-officially-declare-collective-sigh-over-paleo-diet/).
Summing up what many considered to be the main point of the entire conference, she told reporters:
“Look, the diet itself is sound; it’s the philosophy that’s bullshit. Eat what you want. Just leave the damn cavemen out of it.”
I think it's a very reasonable thing to say "Our diet has to be good enough to get us to breeding age, and no better." And in that, we are pretty adaptable. We can eat pretty much anything it would seem, and subsist in some way. [...]Yes, that's the part of the article that grated with me. He (they?) seemed so obsessed with getting the evolution facts right, they'd lost sight of the bigger picture!
But surely the modern take on this is not just to get to breeding age, bang out a few rug-rats and then peg it? We're looking for a diet/way of life that can (a) co-exist with our modern "busy" lives, and (b) allow us (within the limitations of our genes, damn them) to live as long and healthful life as possible.
..................... I have learned that if I want to lose body fat, cutting carbs, not calories, is what works.Yeah but.... that seems to work for you, as you appear to be lucky insofar as you are a 'responder' perhaps - for others among us (i.e. specifically me!) it seems there has to be more to it. (And besides, are you really sure that as well as cutting carbs, you were not also running on a reduced calorie intake as well and it was THIS factor that caused your weight loss?)
Best article I've read on the Paleo Diet (http://hells-ditch.com/2012/08/archaeologists-officially-declare-collective-sigh-over-paleo-diet/).Brilliant. Satire, but true.
That's a good graph btw did you produce that on a specific program/website?The data is from Libra (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.cachapa.libra&hl=en_GB), an android app.
Here you go PP, my year (nearly) on Low Carb High Fat. (Except where I wasn't, and gained weight)
That is interesting.
Shame he didn't include more details of his diet. From the one-sentence description, it sounds like he had a high proportion of low-saturation fats. There have been mountain climbers who accustomed their bodies to intake large quantities of veg oil, then drank straight veg oil when on the mountain.
Boab breakfast:
Diet whey protein powder+ full fat milk + hot water + coconut oil.
Much better than shreddies for staving off hunger in the morning.
Satiety from fat is massive.
When they reached Northumbria, the locals had no defence against the strength of the Vikings.Stamford bridge
The most valuable piece of equipment in a Viking village was the butter churn.
On a longship, each member of the crew would have a barrel of butter. There would be a few fishing lines over the side all the time.
Buttered Herring??
If it was the case that there were no fish, the crew and men would just eat their butter ration.
When they reached Northumbria, the locals had no defence against the strength of the Vikings.
What happened to the descendants of the Vikings?
They won lots of gold medals at the 2012 Olympics.
There are quite a few powerlifters/bodybuilders that are on keto diets, Mark Bell is one and he's one huge strong guy!!
The only negative to report is the odd dizzy spell when I stand up after a bit of inactivity (blood pressure? lack of salt?)
If I partake of rice and beer (oh the horror) do you think I'll have a major set back on the adaptation path?
''Chicken stir fry for dinner and I'm still hungry'' that could be because part of the stir fry is ....noodles....eg carbs. maybe a Chicken stir fry, without noodles, but with added nuts, grated carrot, and a couple of fried eggs and grated cheese on top. That should keep you going till tomorrow lunchtime, with a 50km fasted ride for breakfast.
are you eating Ketogenic or Paleo? With both there is an adaptation stage to go through for the first 2/3 wks. The Paleo Diet for athletes book recommends introducing carbs before, during and after exercise.
Been trying to have at go at this for a couple of weeks and to be honest i'm struggling a bit, especially on the bike and with hunger too. I find i'm worrying about where the energy's going to come from when on the bike, out today for 80k and struggled badly, not with the hunger but lack of energy. About 50k stopped at shop and had one those pepparami things :sick: and a pint of full fat milk :thumbsup: managed ok but despite having chicken stir fry for dinner i'm still hungry, not eaten bread, pasta, potatoes or rice for 2 weeks or more, no processed food either, plenty of eggs, fish,cheese, meat and vegetables. I'm actually wondering if i've reduced the carbs enough to make a difference, can't be arsed with the counting though.
Hello WCTD :)
There are lots of possibilities as to why you're struggling. First and foremost, a couple of weeks isn't that long - it might take a couple of months to fully adapt.
The good news is, there's lots you can do to ease the path to adaptation. Firstly, re-read this thread - follow the links various of us have posted; there's lots of info out there but it takes some digging to find it.
Don't be afraid to eat more fat. Fat helps satiety - which will reduce your hunger issues.
Drink plenty of water - and put salt on everything! Turns out, salt is really only a problem (hypertension) when it's in conjunction with carbs. Once you reduce carbs enough, your body will dump salt (and also potassium, and magnesium) and this loss of electrolytes can make you feel pretty crappy ( so called "keto flu" ) so keep your electrolytes coming.
Don't stress the loss of performance. It does come back - your body will learn, it will adapt. I've been low carb since New Year, and after a month of being pretty rubbish, I'm now happily lifting weights, and riding longer distances.
As they say on reddit/keto - "Keep calm and Keto on"
Thanks Chris, i've had a read back and it has some really good info, couple of things i couldn't quite see though, how to tell when you've adapted ? by that i mean how do you know that your body is burning fat from, in my case, a quite large store, and matters relating to no longer being regular in the bowel dept,it's been quite a while :-[
Toast - its a basic Human Right. Marmite or Jam, or just butter - not bovvered
''Chicken stir fry for dinner and I'm still hungry'' that could be because part of the stir fry is ....noodles....eg carbs. maybe a Chicken stir fry, without noodles, but with added nuts, grated carrot, and a couple of fried eggs and grated cheese on top. That should keep you going till tomorrow lunchtime, with a 50km fasted ride for breakfast.
No noodles involved, chicken and veg only.
So how much carb is TOO much per day? I mean if you say have fish and chips but only have say 10 chips, will this undo all that has gone before. Likewise 1 slice of bread?? (toast).
so you think that on this keto regime, a 'little' carbs is ok, or should one stay well clear.
Cereal Killers II - Run on Fat is available to watch for free for a limited time:
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During those seven years, eat collagen rich foods, meats AND vegetables, which goes against a Ketogenic diet.
During those seven years, eat collagen rich foods, meats AND vegetables, which goes against a Ketogenic diet.
Have to challenge you there. You can (and should) have plenty of vegetables on a Keto diet; all the above ground veggies are fine - best served with butter. And bacon :thumbsup:.
During those seven years, eat collagen rich foods, meats AND vegetables, which goes against a Ketogenic diet.
Have to challenge you there. You can (and should) have plenty of vegetables on a Keto diet; all the above ground veggies are fine - best served with butter. And bacon :thumbsup:.
Yep while my diet isn't ketogenic at moment, with too much fruit and no restriction on veg it is very high fat.
Most guy I know eating HFLC eat more veg than your average vegetarian. On a volume basis veg dominates the plate of anyone eating a well formulated HFLC diet.
As I understand, the 'low calorie' alternative to CHO, is H2O.
;D
I've seen someone get very very ill on a ketosis-based diet. Going into ketosis is fine for a short period but not long-term.
It's a bad idea if you are diabetic or have a history of kidney problems. Also, it's easy to over-do the protein, which can stress the kidneys. My diet is based on 1.5g/Kg LBM of protein, so about 100g a day. A properly formulated low-carb, high-fat diet is pretty benign, and nutritious. It's meat/dairy/fish + salads and veg.
so after the sugar felt better but not perfect so had half a stockpot and now feel very warm!!
A *really* skinny person still has 5-10% of body weight as fat; that's around 4kg or more...
I wonder if a strict keto diet is compatible with endurance-type activities, such as audax, in the longer term.
Am I a changed man? Yes...well I was. As the year drew to a close and I didn't have any firm goals and events planned I eased off a bit: I don't miss beer, bread, pasta, potatoes, etc, but I have a real weakness for chocolate!
Am I a changed man? Yes...well I was. As the year drew to a close and I didn't have any firm goals and events planned I eased off a bit: I don't miss beer, bread, pasta, potatoes, etc, but I have a real weakness for chocolate!
Truffles are easy to make, 100%-85% cocoa solids chocolate, double cream. Make a ganache, add flavourings, nuts etc, roll in cocoa, cover in more dark choc etc and off you go.
I'd like to try some Pemmican as trail food for long rides. It's not a readily available thing in the UK, but there are lots of recipes available online. Sadly, once it says stuff like "render the fat for the next 6 hours" my CBA-fu drains away. I don't even know (or care, TBH) what rendering is, but it seems to be a key step in the process.
I'd like to try some Pemmican as trail food for long rides. It's not a readily available thing in the UK, but there are lots of recipes available online. Sadly, once it says stuff like "render the fat for the next 6 hours" my CBA-fu drains away. I don't even know (or care, TBH) what rendering is, but it seems to be a key step in the process.simmer down
Is it where you smear it on a wall then throw small stones at it?
BTW Chris- if you get pemmican out on a ride and expect me to eat it, you know what I'll be saying...
Would your wife share the recipe if we asked nicely? Please.
On the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese
On the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese
So no carbs at all when you're on a ride?
What distances can you go on this?
On the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese
So no carbs at all when you're on a ride?
What distances can you go on this?
Almonds are 22% carbohydrateOn the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese
So no carbs at all when you're on a ride?
What distances can you go on this?
Almonds are 22% carbohydrateOn the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese
So no carbs at all when you're on a ride?
What distances can you go on this?
On the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese
So no carbs at all when you're on a ride?
What distances can you go on this?
In addition to the "snacks" of droëwors, almonds (https://flic.kr/p/xjvz6M) and cheese for longer rides I take "food" ("Banting bread" made with ground seeds, eggs, with added cheese & bacon (https://flic.kr/p/xjvCt8) - all very high fat, low carb)
Nuun or High 5 Zero electrolyte in the bottles.
I've found I can go pretty much as far as required. On the 24hr TT pretty much only the above items - the exception was half a sweet potato.
On PBP I carried and ate those same items. I ate my own food until Carhaix - 500ish km. I then started supplementing it with control food (trying to be as low carb as the selection allowed, which admittedly was at times not very). The reason for this was solely the quantity of food I was carrying was not enough for the complete trip. In hindsight I think I would have gotten a better result if I'd carried even more of my own food and avoided the control food stops.
When I was a carb eater I couldn't make it to the front door without breakfast. At my ketosis peak 100km fasted rides were no problem.
On the bike snacks:
Droëwors, almonds and few cubes of mild cheddar cheese
So no carbs at all when you're on a ride?
What distances can you go on this?
Speaking for myself - audax distances (and speeds); so typically 10 hour 200s, 15 hour 300s, that kind of thing. No need for carbs, although they're sometimes a nice treat (ice cream on a hot day?).
Racing speeds might need more adaptation, but 200W steady output seems possible at 90%+ fat burning for some, at least.
To low. I've typically seen up to around 5MJ output over 200km. More like 150W given 8.5h moving time.
Source was powertap wheel - output at the wheel hub. Consistently between 4MJ and 5MJ for a 200k.
Power output varies a lot dependent on terrain. With that wheel I've seen as high as around 295W for 5 minutes on a steep climb. That kind of effort is above threshold for me and would probably be entirely carb dependent.
My session on Monday was 3x9x50s at 349W. 135% FTP. Anyone following LCHF able to comment on how that kind of session goes for them?
Source was powertap wheel - output at the wheel hub. Consistently between 4MJ and 5MJ for a 200k.
Power output varies a lot dependent on terrain. With that wheel I've seen as high as around 295W for 5 minutes on a steep climb. That kind of effort is above threshold for me and would probably be entirely carb dependent.
My session on Monday was 3x9x50s at 349W. 135% FTP. Anyone following LCHF able to comment on how that kind of session goes for them?
Source was powertap wheel - output at the wheel hub. Consistently between 4MJ and 5MJ for a 200k.
Power output varies a lot dependent on terrain. With that wheel I've seen as high as around 295W for 5 minutes on a steep climb. That kind of effort is above threshold for me and would probably be entirely carb dependent.
My session on Monday was 3x9x50s at 349W. 135% FTP. Anyone following LCHF able to comment on how that kind of session goes for them?
Not that directly in terms of bike efforts.
Experience of intense weights sessions for strength endurance is that my blood sugar rises with them 5.2 to 7.0 recently
A 1-2-3-4-3-2-1 minute pyramid on the indoor rower, equal rest saw my BG go from 4.4 to 5.8
Running intervals sees a similar sort of rise.
The main reason is adrenaline, which causes a dump of the stored glycogens from the liver, to fund what is essentially the fight or flight primitive response i.e. a short intense burst of energy, rather than the fat fuelled steady plodding. The released glycogen can then be re-absorbed causing a later BG crash.
As long as you have that adrenaline response you can do those short bursts, and I would not say my erg pyramid was slower than expected based on curent level of training in that. The pre-Christmas running intervals were where they should have been.
Hello WCTD :)
There are lots of possibilities as to why you're struggling. First and foremost, a couple of weeks isn't that long - it might take a couple of months to fully adapt.
The good news is, there's lots you can do to ease the path to adaptation. Firstly, re-read this thread - follow the links various of us have posted; there's lots of info out there but it takes some digging to find it.
Don't be afraid to eat more fat. Fat helps satiety - which will reduce your hunger issues.
Drink plenty of water - and put salt on everything! Turns out, salt is really only a problem (hypertension) when it's in conjunction with carbs. Once you reduce carbs enough, your body will dump salt (and also potassium, and magnesium) and this loss of electrolytes can make you feel pretty crappy ( so called "keto flu" ) so keep your electrolytes coming.
Don't stress the loss of performance. It does come back - your body will learn, it will adapt. I've been low carb since New Year, and after a month of being pretty rubbish, I'm now happily lifting weights, and riding longer distances.
As they say on reddit/keto - "Keep calm and Keto on"
Fad
Look at the blood values of those that are on this diet - high in cholesterol and saturated fat.
We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.
Ketosis is not a healthy state to be in, the vast majority of people I've seen need stimulants to help them through their day as they cannot function, the body is designed for glucose consumption. Don't confuse weight loss with your body dumping a shit load of water because you are not taking on carbs which need water in order to metabolise (roughly 3g to every 1g of carbs)
Look at those that advocate this piece of shit diet that rapes the natural world, contributes to global warming, world hunger and results in a billion + animals needlessly being killed a year. We grow enough grain to feed 10+ billion people yet half of this is given to livestock, which we then kill and eat - nice one.
Prof Tim Noakes - diabetic
Dr Loren Cordain - Fat, looks ill.
Jimmy Moore - Fat, blood values are shocking.
Mark Sisson - Heart Attack
I am not going to argue with you about the meat, but actually our protein is decreasing as we eat the diet. as you become less hungry you naturally eat less and that specifically includes protein which can lead to gluconeogenesis.
Your comment about ketosis being unnatural and most people needing stimulants is just wrong and is the exact opposite of the reality.
My understanding is that Tim noakes was either pre diabetic or type 2 diabetic and has now reversed that with his diet.
You need to read a bit more about cholesterol. Cholesterol is not 'bad', it is the ratio of LDL and HDL. This normalises on LCHF diet.
Anyway we will have to agree to differ on this one.
Fad
Look at the blood values of those that are on this diet - high in cholesterol and saturated fat.
We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.
Ketosis is not a healthy state to be in, the vast majority of people I've seen need stimulants to help them through their day as they cannot function, the body is designed for glucose consumption. Don't confuse weight loss with your body dumping a shit load of water because you are not taking on carbs which need water in order to metabolise (roughly 3g to every 1g of carbs)
Look at those that advocate this piece of shit diet that rapes the natural world, contributes to global warming, world hunger and results in a billion + animals needlessly being killed a year. We grow enough grain to feed 10+ billion people yet half of this is given to livestock, which we then kill and eat - nice one.
Prof Tim Noakes - diabetic
Dr Loren Cordain - Fat, looks ill.
Jimmy Moore - Fat, blood values are shocking.
Mark Sisson - Heart Attack
What a load of unscientific rubbish. Humans have only been cultivating crops since about 7,000 BC, so our digestive systems haven't had nearly enough time to evolve to deal with such a diet properly. Bearing in mind the body can only store a very limited amount of glycogen, it's clearly not evolved to handle glucose or any form of sugar properly. Ketosis is a perfectly normal and natural state to be in, and is what humans survived on for hundreds of thousands of years.
About the only vaguely accurate thing you've stated is about feeding grain to fatten animals. However if someone wants to be a vegetarian in ketosis, it's perfectly possible.
I'd be far more concerned about the waste of resources in producing High Fructose Corn Syrup.
I am not going to argue with you about the meat, but actually our protein is decreasing as we eat the diet. as you become less hungry you naturally eat less and that specifically includes protein which can lead to gluconeogenesis.
Your comment about ketosis being unnatural and most people needing stimulants is just wrong and is the exact opposite of the reality.
My understanding is that Tim noakes was either pre diabetic or type 2 diabetic and has now reversed that with his diet.
You need to read a bit more about cholesterol. Cholesterol is not 'bad', it is the ratio of LDL and HDL. This normalises on LCHF diet.
Anyway we will have to agree to differ on this one.
Eating less meat still contributes to the undue suffering of a billion + animals every year. 'Eating less meat' with all due respect is some half measure bullshit.
Ketosis is an unhealthy state to be in, why you would think otherwise I'm not quite sure. I'll state my point again, the body, i.e the trillion + cells run on glucose - not fat. So why an earth would you want to substitute giving your body whole foods carbs (which it desires) in exchange for fat.
Choloresterol is not bad?!?! :facepalm:
And I don't see how Noakes can reverse this, when it has been proven with medical science that meat has the same insulin load as eating pure glucose.
And we won't agree to disagree at all. Your ignorance regarding what is essentially the atkins diet reworked is contributing to climate change, world hunger, and the unnecessary killing of animals.
You crack on though and be your like your 'hunter gatherer' ancestors hunting meat - as you drive down the local supermarket to buy some more animals products.
Question:
When was the last time you actually hunted for meat, are have you just been suckered/socially engineered in to an utterly bullshit fad diet?
I am not going to argue with you about the meat, but actually our protein is decreasing as we eat the diet. as you become less hungry you naturally eat less and that specifically includes protein which can lead to gluconeogenesis.
Your comment about ketosis being unnatural and most people needing stimulants is just wrong and is the exact opposite of the reality.
My understanding is that Tim noakes was either pre diabetic or type 2 diabetic and has now reversed that with his diet.
You need to read a bit more about cholesterol. Cholesterol is not 'bad', it is the ratio of LDL and HDL. This normalises on LCHF diet.
Anyway we will have to agree to differ on this one.
Eating less meat still contributes to the undue suffering of a billion + animals every year. 'Eating less meat' with all due respect is some half measure bullshit.
Ketosis is an unhealthy state to be in, why you would think otherwise I'm not quite sure. I'll state my point again, the body, i.e the trillion + cells run on glucose - not fat. So why an earth would you want to substitute giving your body whole foods carbs (which it desires) in exchange for fat.
Choloresterol is not bad?!?! :facepalm:
And I don't see how Noakes can reverse this, when it has been proven with medical science that meat has the same insulin load as eating pure glucose.
And we won't agree to disagree at all. Your ignorance regarding what is essentially the atkins diet reworked is contributing to climate change, world hunger, and the unnecessary killing of animals.
You crack on though and be your like your 'hunter gatherer' ancestors hunting meat - as you drive down the local supermarket to buy some more animals products.
Question:
When was the last time you actually hunted for meat, are have you just been suckered/socially engineered in to an utterly bullshit fad diet?
Because a lchf diet, not high protein has been clinically shown to improve glycaemic control and reduce complications in type 1 diabetics.
Or do you also object to coconut oil in my coffee and rapeseed or olive oil on my salads?
I don't have insulin resistance, I have one of the lowest insulin doses I know of per g of carb ingested.
You are showing your ignorance here by conflating Type 2 where insulin resistance is a feature with Type 1 which is auto immune and essentially is zero or very little endogenous insulin production.
As for the rest of your post, that is entirely highly opiniated and intended to insult. Again, show me a scientific study that shows better clinical outcomes for TYPE 1 diabetics on a hight refined carbohydrate diet.
Please explain to me why you think you should be allowed to condemn me to a higher risk of diabetic complications due to your moral stance?
I think it is clear LMT is simply trolling for the sake of trolling.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens are omnivore. They'll eat anything they can find or catch.
Cooking helps, as our ancestors found.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens are omnivore. They'll eat anything they can find or catch.
Cooking helps, as our ancestors found.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens are omnivore. They'll eat anything they can find or catch.
Cooking helps, as our ancestors found.
+1
We are super adaptable.
Our main system for producing energy (ATP) for our cells is the aerobic system; it's a pretty complicated pathway but our bodies can use carbs, fat & protein for this using The Krebs Cycle. At higher power outputs the higher oxygen demand for burning fat makes glucose/glycogen a preferable choice where power matters. (There are other means of producing energy Phospo Creatine system, Cori Cycle etc).
Once your source is real whole food possible to construct a healthy diet with all types of macros.
On ketosis (which I've tried but don't practice) not sure how one can say definitely that it's unhealthy; how could we have evolved without it? During periods of starvation, winter with low plant supply etc where would our brain get the necessary 600 cals a day or so for the 1kg organ on top of our shoulders that will only run on glucose or glucose/ketones. Without the adaption to enter ketosis (or some other back up system) how could we have survived times of scarcity?
While a love of nature/animals is an admirable quality, using it as a basis for asserting what is the correct way for all people to eat all of the time leaves one a little vulnerable to an accusation of bias.
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT :thumbsup:.
I particularly like:QuoteCarbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.
What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?
"Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast."
Need we say more?
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT :thumbsup:.
I particularly like:QuoteCarbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.
What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?
PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT :thumbsup:.
I particularly like:QuoteCarbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.
What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?
PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...
Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).
If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT :thumbsup:.
I particularly like:QuoteCarbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.
What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?
PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...
Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).
If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.
Other than religion is bunk?
I'm a happy omnivore and likely to stay that way. Whilst breakfast involved eggs and smoked salmon, lunch was entirely plant based.
The real problem of "earth raping" is chronic, uncontrolled overpopulation and fuelling that entirely (almost) by carbon.
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT :thumbsup:.
I particularly like:QuoteCarbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.
What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?
PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...
Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).
If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.
So the odd billion + people in Asia and Africa on a diet consisting of Rice, Beans, Potatoes, Lentils, Fruits & veg are fat and sick?!? Really?!? And you think I'm trolling?
Other than religion is bunk?Which reinforces my view that there are too many humans
I'm a happy omnivore and likely to stay that way. Whilst breakfast involved eggs and smoked salmon, lunch was entirely plant based.
The real problem of "earth raping" is chronic, uncontrolled overpopulation and fuelling that entirely (almost) by carbon.
And before you start moralising, I prefer fish and game.
Look up the amount of grain fed to animals (but could be given to humans) who we then kill and eat...look up the amount of CO2 emissions given off by livestock agriculture...look at the amount of water we use for said industry...look at the programmes which document the amount of pain that we inflict on animals for no good reason.
All of this is completely unnecessary, apart from Vitamin B12 there is nothing you cannot get from a diet which excludes animal products.
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT :thumbsup:.
I particularly like:QuoteCarbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.
What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?
PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...
Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).
If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.
So the odd billion + people in Asia and Africa on a diet consisting of Rice, Beans, Potatoes, Lentils, Fruits & veg are fat and sick?!? Really?!? And you think I'm trolling?
T2 diabetes is extremely prevalent amongst the South Asian population exactly because of that diet
Other than religion is bunk?Which reinforces my view that there are too many humans
I'm a happy omnivore and likely to stay that way. Whilst breakfast involved eggs and smoked salmon, lunch was entirely plant based.
The real problem of "earth raping" is chronic, uncontrolled overpopulation and fuelling that entirely (almost) by carbon.
And before you start moralising, I prefer fish and game.
Look up the amount of grain fed to animals (but could be given to humans) who we then kill and eat...look up the amount of CO2 emissions given off by livestock agriculture...look at the amount of water we use for said industry...look at the programmes which document the amount of pain that we inflict on animals for no good reason.
All of this is completely unnecessary, apart from Vitamin B12 there is nothing you cannot get from a diet which excludes animal products.
"Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast."Yebbut Cain killed Abel. Therefore we are all descended from the tiller of the soil. This and the story of Esau and Jacob are taken by some to indicate the greater advancement of agriculture over pastoralism or hunting, by others to show the original superiority of hunting over growing food, and by still others to be a distant memory of the Neanderthals.
Need we say more?
There are human haplatypes who don't eat plant derived starches. Inuit Indians for example who survive on seal, walrus and fish. They got an obesity problem when European R1b haplatypes brought corn, wheat and chocolate filled foods to Alaska.
It's certainly unscientific to believe that humans have only been consuming grains for 7,000 years. Evidence goes back as far as at least 100,000 years ago (and even before that was discovered, 23,000 years).
It's also unscientific to believe that humans aren't adapted to consuming carbohydrates. Or did we end up with 3x the copies of the AMY1 gene as the chimpanzee by accident?
It's certainly unscientific to believe that humans have only been consuming grains for 7,000 years. Evidence goes back as far as at least 100,000 years ago (and even before that was discovered, 23,000 years).
It's also unscientific to believe that humans aren't adapted to consuming carbohydrates. Or did we end up with 3x the copies of the AMY1 gene as the chimpanzee by accident?
I didn't actually say humans have only been consuming grains for 7,000 years. And if humans have adapted to consuming carbs, it's certainly not very efficient.
It's been proven that the fat in animal products is what contributes to insulin resistance.
You read the China Study yet?
IIRC, Dr Atkins’ caveat was he advised his followers to take sufficient amounts of vitamin and mineral supplements on a daily basis alongside a reduced carb diet.
IIRC, he also advised taking regular physical exercise.
I did, joined Audax UK and had a great time.
Twenty years later, still having a great time. :thumbsup:
You read the China Study yet?
All 350 pages? No. I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.
You read the China Study yet?
All 350 pages? No. I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.
No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?
IIRC, Dr Atkins’ caveat was he advised his followers to take sufficient amounts of vitamin and mineral supplements on a daily basis alongside a reduced carb diet.
IIRC, he also advised taking regular physical exercise.
I did, joined Audax UK and had a great time.
Twenty years later, still having a great time. :thumbsup:
This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.
Dr Atkins was over 250lbs when he died, and when they cut him open they found all manner of issues regarding his vascular system. The story about how he died was that he hit his head on an icy pavement, the general consensus is though that he suffered a heart attack.
IIRC, Dr Atkins’ caveat was he advised his followers to take sufficient amounts of vitamin and mineral supplements on a daily basis alongside a reduced carb diet.
IIRC, he also advised taking regular physical exercise.
I did, joined Audax UK and had a great time.
Twenty years later, still having a great time. :thumbsup:
This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.
Dr Atkins was over 250lbs when he died, and when they cut him open they found all manner of issues regarding his vascular system. The story about how he died was that he hit his head on an icy pavement, the general consensus is though that he suffered a heart attack.
Slightly ingenuous there, as that's not spelling out the actual facts. At the time of his accident, he was only 195 lbs - due to being hospitalised in intensive care for 2 weeks, he gained weight due to fluid retention, and they found he had cardiomyopathy, a heart muscle disease that was probably caused by a virus, not by what he ate.
http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp
This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.
You read the China Study yet?
All 350 pages? No. I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.
No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?
No - none at all.
There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.
You read the China Study yet?
All 350 pages? No. I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.
No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?
No - none at all.
There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.
So you agree that there is there is a correlation between animal products and cancer - thanks for clearing that up.
This to me just shows that the diet is lacking in the aforementioned vits and mins.
You can follow Atkins without the supplements - he tended to advocate them to ward off certain conditions. In any event, Atkins is far from unique as realistically you can't be a vegan and survive without supplements, whilst I could live perfectly happily as a vegetarian and not also have to worry about missing out on some obscure amino acid or similar.
You read the China Study yet?
All 350 pages? No. I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.
No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?
No - none at all.
There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.
So you agree that there is there is a correlation between animal products and cancer - thanks for clearing that up.
No - as I stated it's down to the manufacturing process. If you eat deep fried, nitrate infused, courgettes in sunflower oil you're increasing your cancer risk.
You read the China Study yet?
All 350 pages? No. I have however read a number of summaries pointing out the massive discrepancies in the data presented by Dr Campbell, and the fact the actual study itself, rather than his book, doesn't actually show a correlation with cancer.
No correlation with cancer regarding eating animal products?
No - none at all.
There is of course the potential issue cancer from processed meats but that's due to the manufacturing process itself.
So you agree that there is there is a correlation between animal products and cancer - thanks for clearing that up.
No - as I stated it's down to the manufacturing process. If you eat deep fried, nitrate infused, courgettes in sunflower oil you're increasing your cancer risk.
:facepalm:
So, I've been following a Keto diet this year. As to whether I shall live longer (ref recent posts) I don't know but I'm enjoying being out of the insulin cycle.
The flipside of this though is a loss of appetite; I just don't feel hungry any more. I enjoy eating and I'm generally eating better quality food than I was previously but life definitely feels a bit greyer, a bit like how being on prozac/valium is described.
I've also lost a pyschological crutch, in that when riding I'd occasionally have a carb based snack - anything from a jelly baby on up - as a pickmeup, but with Keto (a) there is no need and (b) no point, as the nutritional benefit/effect of anything eaten is not felt for several hours. The old mantra of 'just keep eating' no longer applies.
So yesterday, I had breakfast about 7am, rode the KVR100 (well, most of it), eyed the toast and cakes at the arrivee which looked very nice and normally I'd have been 'all over' but passed,. I eventually had a light snack at home around 5pm because I felt I ought to eat something but I still wasn't 'hungry'.
This loss of appetite is useful when living a sedentry lifestyle, but how do you ensure you get enough to eat when the workload cranks up? Is it simply a matter of keeping an eye on the scales and ensuring you eat enough to maintain your target body weight?
15-20 million years of human evolution has taught us that glucose is the primary source of fuel for the body and brain. When someone falls off the wagon by eating carb then they are only doing what is natural. No need to fret.
15-20 million years of human evolution has taught us that glucose is the primary source of fuel for the body and brain. When someone falls off the wagon by eating carb then they are only doing what is natural. No need to fret.
Er, no it isn't
Muscles can work very well on lipolysis, and the brain can utilise ketones very effectively
for reference, i had four bananas at roughly 70, 110, 150, 180km of 204km audax and nothing else apart from 800ml of water. average speed 29kph, diet type - balanced :)
15-20 million years of human evolution has taught us that glucose is the primary source of fuel for the body and brain. When someone falls off the wagon by eating carb then they are only doing what is natural. No need to fret.
Er, no it isn't
Muscles can work very well on lipolysis, and the brain can utilise ketones very effectively
Er yes it is. Me thinks you have misinterpreted my post, nay bother I'll bold the bit that you misread.
Someone on the Keto would have crashed and burned if they tried to keep up with you on a sustained climb. :thumbsup:
15-20 million years of human evolution has taught us that glucose is the primary source of fuel for the body and brain. When someone falls off the wagon by eating carb then they are only doing what is natural. No need to fret.
Er, no it isn't
Muscles can work very well on lipolysis, and the brain can utilise ketones very effectively
Er yes it is. Me thinks you have misinterpreted my post, nay bother I'll bold the bit that you misread.
I suppose it depends what you mean by "primary". If you mean - it's what the body will use first given a choice, then yes it is - a carbohydrate rich meal will trigger an insulin response in order to moderate blood sugar, and any excess will be burned (if you're active) or converted to fat and stored (if you're binge-watching Netflix).
But once you are no longer in a recently fed state, fat is the primary "background" source of fuel for aerobic activity. The brain can mostly function on either glucose or ketone bodies; only a few tissue types have an absolute requirement for glucose as energy - including: red blood cells, some cells in the brain, oh - and cancer cells it would seem (Ref: Warburg). Once you get into a ketogenic state, your liver will create any glucose the body needs (which is really not very much), and the rest of your energy needs are met by fat and ketones.QuoteSomeone on the Keto would have crashed and burned if they tried to keep up with you on a sustained climb. :thumbsup:
Hehe - the very idea of keeping up with Zigzag on any terrain is fantasy to me! ;D
Before my fat burning test in April I ate a high carb, moderate fat, moderate protein breakfast. Yet during aerobic exercise, I got most of my calories from fat. The reason for this isn't my diet, it's a lot of aerobic base training. The mitochondria in the muscles respond to training, and I doubt that sitting on your arse eating avocados and coconut oil will have anything like the same effect as drinking a black coffee and turning the pedals for a couple of hours.
If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.
If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.
But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.
Bollocks.If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.
But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.
Bollocks.If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.
But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.
EDIT: And as for the whole cancer thing, cancer cells thrive in an acidic environment. Answers on a postcard please for what diet will make your blood the most acidic?
Clue: It involves eating a dead animal, eating the menstrual cycle of an animal, or drinking the product of an animal.
We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.
If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.
But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.
Tell that to this guy: http://www.samiinkinen.com/post/86875777832/becoming-a-bonk-proof-triathlete-fat-chance
We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.
Where do you get this stuff from.
*sigh*Bollocks.If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.
But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.
I'll await your 20 mins Z4 effort then.... :)
We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.
Where do you get this stuff from. All mammals have roughly similar blood pH. The cat which is about as carnivorous a creature as you can get has a blood pH of 7.3-7.4 very close to ours and very definitely slightly alkaline not acidic.
*sigh*Bollocks.If you want to be trained, you need to train - pfft, no one is arguing that.
But on low carb you cannot train beyond a certain threshold.
I'll await your 20 mins Z4 effort then.... :)
They're right there in my training log from last autumn when I was righteously keto, rigorously training, losing weight and generally kicking butt.
You can't view these because they're not in the public domain. I'm fairly sure that there are real athletes out there willing to show their numbers though, you don't have to look at the stats for a fat middle aged woman to see that people who limit the carbohydrates in their diet are perfectly capable of doing high end training.
I'd have a lot more respect for your dietary choices if you stopped trying to justify them with pseudo scientific rubbish - but then- you think that about my diet choices, too.
We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.
Where do you get this stuff from. All mammals have roughly similar blood pH. The cat which is about as carnivorous a creature as you can get has a blood pH of 7.3-7.4 very close to ours and very definitely slightly alkaline not acidic.
And on a secondary note you do know that most people of Northern Europeans ancestry and and some Africans have a gene that specifically allows for lactose consumption after babyhood ? So some of us at least are evolved to consume dairy products.
As Ben Goldacre said in Bad Science: The most important take-home message with diet and health is that anyone who ever expresses anything with certainty is basically wrong, because the evidence for cause and effect in this area is almost always weak and circumstantial…
Because you posted that eating meat made your blood acidic.
The following is from sciencebasedmedicine.org. (https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/)
QuoteAs Ben Goldacre said in Bad Science: The most important take-home message with diet and health is that anyone who ever expresses anything with certainty is basically wrong, because the evidence for cause and effect in this area is almost always weak and circumstantial…
I hear that all the time from people who have been overwhelmed by the information presented in a video that supports their beliefs. They assume that the evidence presented is incontrovertible, and that anyone who agreed to watch it would necessarily be converted to their beliefs. These videos tend to fall into an easily recognizable pattern. They feature a charismatic scientist with an agenda who makes sweeping statements that go beyond the evidence, makes unwarranted assumptions about the meaning of studies, and omits any reference to contradictory evidence.
>the enzymes used to break down food are acidic<
No they aren't and don't argue -
15-20 million years of human evolution has taught us that glucose is the primary source of fuel for the body and brain. When someone falls off the wagon by eating carb then they are only doing what is natural. No need to fret.
Er, no it isn't
Muscles can work very well on lipolysis, and the brain can utilise ketones very effectively
Er yes it is. Me thinks you have misinterpreted my post, nay bother I'll bold the bit that you misread.
We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.
Where do you get this stuff from. All mammals have roughly similar blood pH. The cat which is about as carnivorous a creature as you can get has a blood pH of 7.3-7.4 very close to ours and very definitely slightly alkaline not acidic.
And on a secondary note you do know that most people of Northern Europeans ancestry and and some Africans have a gene that specifically allows for lactose consumption after babyhood ? So some of us at least are evolved to consume dairy products.
Not quite sure where you get blood from, the enzymes used to break down food are acidic, the acid in the stomach is typically 20 times stronger than that of a human being. Why do you think that the rate of heart disease and diabetes is on the up?
<Anecdata> My erstwhile insulin-dependent diabetic uncle (late onset) is off insulin and has normal blood sugars on a red meat-free, dairy-free, low-carb diet.
<Anecdata> My erstwhile insulin-dependent diabetic uncle (late onset) is off insulin and has normal blood sugars on a red meat-free, dairy-free, low-carb diet.
Not all meats are red or fish e.g. chicken is quite cheaply and easily available.
Not all meats are red or fish e.g. chicken is quite cheaply and easily available.
You don't say? ;D
The following is from sciencebasedmedicine.org. (https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/)
Diabetes can be treated and controlled with diet, weight loss, medication, obesity surgery, and even islet cell transplants. The symptoms subside, the blood sugar normalizes, and some patients no longer need their medication after they lose weight and make other lifestyle changes. But we don’t consider it “cured.”
<Anecdata> My erstwhile insulin-dependent diabetic uncle (late onset) is off insulin and has normal blood sugars on a red meat-free, dairy-free, low-carb diet.
Good for him, I'm on average using 6-8 units a day, right at the bottom of the scale. I think this is due to a combination of low carb diet and general fitness prolonging the honeymoon period. I suspect some residual pancreatic function.
<Anecdata> My erstwhile insulin-dependent diabetic uncle (late onset) is off insulin and has normal blood sugars on a red meat-free, dairy-free, low-carb diet.
No (OK, little) meat, no dairy, low carbs. Isn't that called just not eating? ??? :P Avocado, eggs, nuts and mackerel, over and over and over again?
Diabetes is a condition where a lack of insulin leads to loss of control of blood sugar and death.
It is therefore assumed that the primary object of insulin is to control Blood sugar.
HOWEVER
if we did not have problems with type 1 diabetes then insulin would probably have been seen as an evolutionary hormone designed to drive glucose into lipogenesis and into fat cells for the winter. (What it actually does).
our understanding of the function of insulin in popular science is skewed by how it was first discovered.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36345768
Other experts have also criticised the recommendation to eat more fat, saying the report cherry-picked evidence.
Naveed Sattar, a professor of metabolic medicine at the University of Glasgow, said the report was "good, bad and ugly".
He backed calls to cut snacking, but said eating more fat as a cure for obesity and type 2 diabetes was "not warranted" by the evidence and would have "adverse" consequences.
He said the authors had been selective in their choice of evidence and had ignored "an abundant literature which goes against their conclusions"
We know a diet that works, one that let's you eat cake and sausages, pasta and curry, and whatever you really want without having to worry.
But all that dietary complexity is illusory. We weirded food. It started with the obsession with fat, then low calorie, now it's low carb, and who knows what's next. We dress it up with appeals to evolution, physiology, biochemistry, and metabolism. None of this is necessary. We know a diet that works, one that let's you eat cake and sausages, pasta and curry, and whatever you really want without having to worry.
We know a diet that works, one that let's you eat cake and sausages, pasta and curry, and whatever you really want without having to worry.
Who do you mean by "we" and what do you mean by a diet "that works"? Because I'm not sure I follow you.
I accept and see your point that food has become weirded but I don't see that the public at large know how to eat healthily and I'm sure that we both see everyday examples of people that are struggling (and I say that without attributing blame or scorn). When I talk of a healthy diet, I recognise peoples motivations for eating - the mental health aspect if you will. I feel it's one thing to know that eating cake all day long doesn't work but putting into practice is another matter entirely. People eat for many reasons.
But all that dietary complexity is illusory. We weirded food. It started with the obsession with fat, then low calorie, now it's low carb, and who knows what's next. We dress it up with appeals to evolution, physiology, biochemistry, and metabolism. None of this is necessary. We know a diet that works, one that let's you eat cake and sausages, pasta and curry, and whatever you really want without having to worry.
But all that dietary complexity is illusory. We weirded food. It started with the obsession with fat, then low calorie, now it's low carb, and who knows what's next. We dress it up with appeals to evolution, physiology, biochemistry, and metabolism. None of this is necessary. We know a diet that works, one that let's you eat cake and sausages, pasta and curry, and whatever you really want without having to worry.
The diet that gets a woman of 5'3" to more than 80kg while cycling 10,000 miles a year.
:facepalm:
It's really not that straightforward, otherwise there wouldn't be an epidemic of obesity. We're not (us fatties) actually all stupid, greedy and lazy.
Good job I keep mine to the minimum then
Yet I can function on 10% of that, with no weight problems and am having a great time on the bike this year. My only issue is needing to artificially manage carbs vs insulin.
Fat, fat, fat, all the way.
Mark Sisson's Primal Movements might be a good start - including Progression Videos:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/a-fitness-plan-so-easy-a-caveman-did-it/
I wasn't consciously engaging in fat shaming, otherCL. Merely making the point that there are many obese folk doing precisely what the "primal" or "paleo" approach suggests will be a surefire way of looking like Bruce Lee/Lara Croft, and not making headway. The flip side is that there are many skinny and healthy vegans around who can't by definition "eat primally".
However, if you still feel that the post is inappropriate, I'll take that bit down.
It's very easy to get caught up in the hype about it, and that might well lead you to think it's a fad.
If I said to you that most of the time, I choose not to eat grains or sugar, or any processed foods made from them, but instead eat lots of fruit, vegetables and healthy meats and fats, would it still sound "extreme"? If so, is it more or less extreme than the modern Western diet based on huge amounts of processed food, especially sugar?
I have been doing kept since january. i have cycled about the same as previous years but have far more endurance and can go much further without needing to eat. as with anything, if you train the body to burn fat then it will do and i personally think that gives more endurance than burning very limited amounts of glycogen.
for reference, i had four bananas at roughly 70, 110, 150, 180km of 204km audax and nothing else apart from 800ml of water. average speed 29kph, diet type - balanced :)
On the face of it and taking into account the average speed and power needed for said speed. I'd say a sound aerobic system, with plant based carbs to top up the energy levels that you would have burned pedalling up some hills or just 'giving it some' on the flats.
That's a thumbs up from me.
Someone on the Keto would have crashed and burned if they tried to keep up with you on a sustained climb. :thumbsup:
it's difficult to ascertain someone else's fitness for comparison. a proper study of keto and non-keto athletes would be interesting.
I think that we all need to find our own diet. Can the veto sustain you for a longish climb - yes. Two very intense sessions yesterday. the a 500m climb in8.6km today. No carbs at all. Now I was not first to the top as I am unfit at the moment but I had no need for anything to eat. I think kept works for me.
Quite
I'm getting rather sick of the anti-vegan jokes (I'm not vegan) I keep seeing. Posted on facebook, pictures here and there.
Eat a varied diet, exercise well, you'll probably be fit and healthy.
I think that bit is age.Quite
I'm getting rather sick of the anti-vegan jokes (I'm not vegan) I keep seeing. Posted on facebook, pictures here and there.
Eat a varied diet, exercise well, you'll probably be fit and healthy.
Equally, I'm getting pretty sick of vegan scare mongering.
Eat a varied diet, exercise well, and you might end up fat and unhealthy anyway.
Have you been reading the Telegraph, mr Charly? A week ago they had a feature of "ten amazing athletes you never knew were vegan" from Mike Tyson to people I'd never heard of and can't remember (but they might still be famous!). This week they had some bloke saying "I'm vegetarian and it's made me healthier but vegans are weird and unhealthy". Where has this sudden interest in veganism come from?
He probably just needs some carbs.
#LMT
He probably just needs some carbs.
#LMT
Finally Chris talks some sense, the primary fuel for the brain is glucose, although preferred from non refined plant based sources. Bananas, apples, etc.
He probably just needs some carbs.
#LMT
Finally Chris talks some sense, the primary fuel for the brain is glucose, although preferred from non refined plant based sources. Bananas, apples, etc.
(My Bold).
I'm not sure the brain has a primary fuel - most brain tissue works equally well on ketones or glucose. The remaining tissues that are actually glucose dependent (those cells that lack mitochondria) can easily be supplied by glucose manufactured in the liver.
Some children with intractable epilepsy find their brains work much better on ketones - or at least, malfunction less.
A wholly unethical piece of research was done in the early 70s to prove that brains work fine on ketones. They took several diabetics, adapted them to a ketogenic diet, then pumped them so full of insulin, their blood glucose level was somewhere around 1mmol - a level which should have at the very least rendered them comatose. Not only were they still alive, they seemed completely unaffected, proving that their brains could work just fine without glucose.
Most tissue types can use ketones for fuel. Skeletal muscle prefers to burn free fatty acid over ketones, but requires increasing amounts of glucose in order to work anaerobically; FFAs just don't burn hot enough when you're doing your birthday squats.
Sorry to bring the debate to down to a really trivial question but does the "Keto Breath" go away after a while or do you simply stop noticing it? I've been in full ketosis a few times now and not noticed the breath, but others did. I'm pondering going back to keto but if it means my wife has to live with a stinky husband for more than a week or so then it might not be a goer.
It has, it's called glucose.
Moral superiority is not an objective viewpoint, anyone can (and has) claimed that and gone on to commit what others would consider atrocitics. Somebody once tried to tell me I could get all my daily protein needs from broccoli, until I pointed out their g/kg confusion rendering their argument possible, but wholly impractical.
It has, it's called glucose.
Er, yeah OK. Whatevs.
Meanwhile - we haven't had a gratuitous keto food picture for AGES, so here's a picture of my lunch.
Macros: 15% Carbs, 15% Protein, 70% Fat, and just for LMT - 0% Animal :thumbsup:
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7058/27759872061_69f3c8585d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Ji3APP)
ETA: You know what, he's right - I am feeling morally higher.
But slightly less flippantly now: doesn't look very much food to me. That's simply calorie restriction; just in a way that works for you. Adding some chick peas in place of the nuts would drastically change the macronutrient composition but you'd still lose weight. It's still calories in < out. (Of course, your particular satiety pathways may work better with fat, in which case crack on. I need protein and bulk, fat doesn't do it for me.)
Nuts have a surprising amount of calories, the vast majority of the energy in that meal comes from the nuts unless there's added fats or oils.
A 758kCal lunch would be a bit light for me unless I was on a rest day.
It doesn't matter, if you're running on fat.
Given that any excess protein is converted to carb by the liver, eating more energy in the form of protein is an expensive way of upping carbs...
Given that any excess protein is converted to carb by the liver, eating more energy in the form of protein is an expensive way of upping carbs...
Given that any excess protein is converted to carb by the liver, eating more energy in the form of protein is an expensive way of upping carbs...
But can be pleasant from time to time. No?
I have discovered Keto Chocolate Mugcakes. With whipped cream.
Some really interesting (and some not so) reading in this thread.
I started my LCHF/Banting/Keto/wevs journey almost a week ago now and have been blown away by results so far. Obviously early days yet, but still.
One of the reasons I jumped on the bandwagon was reading this a while back - http://julianabuhring.com/keto-baby/
Hmm, dunno, ''Fourth, I sleep better. My average is 7-8 hours a night, and I wake up feeling sharp and energetic'' yet ''I get up in the morning and have a coffee or two''
''Things like bacon and salami are great sources of protein and fat, and while absolutely delicious, I have stopped eating anything from pigs. They are just too intelligent, I think about eating my dog and it just hurts. Yeah, conscientious objector. I am feeling that way about most animals these days. So, eggs. Lotsa eggs.''
They are also sources of cholesterol, and whilst it is good that she has made the connection between Porky the Pig and bacon, instead she is consuming eggs which have been shown to be one of the highest causes of saturated fat and cholesterol. I wonder if she knows how many baby male chicks are killed within hours of birth?
Hmm, dunno, ''Fourth, I sleep better. My average is 7-8 hours a night, and I wake up feeling sharp and energetic'' yet ''I get up in the morning and have a coffee or two''
''Things like bacon and salami are great sources of protein and fat, and while absolutely delicious, I have stopped eating anything from pigs. They are just too intelligent, I think about eating my dog and it just hurts. Yeah, conscientious objector. I am feeling that way about most animals these days. So, eggs. Lotsa eggs.''
They are also sources of cholesterol, and whilst it is good that she has made the connection between Porky the Pig and bacon, instead she is consuming eggs which have been shown to be one of the highest causes of saturated fat and cholesterol. I wonder if she knows how many baby male chicks are killed within hours of birth?
Why do you think the only reason people drinking coffee = an energy boost? That's not why I drink it. Peculiar.
Cholesterol = https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/eggs-fats-and-the-new-dietary-guidelines/
I come here to hear about peoples experiences, advice & opinions (positive & negative) of low carb eating.
...as an aside I understand that is possible to eat vegan and be ketogenic. That would be interesting to hear about.
...as an aside I understand that is possible to eat vegan and be ketogenic. That would be interesting to hear about.
Not reeeeally. Vegetarian is easy, but not vegan.
It's in Politics and Other Big Issues (POBI) in the pub.
As debate there can be 'lively', you will need to ask rogerzilla to enable you to enter.
There be DRAGONS!
It's in Politics and Other Big Issues (POBI) in the pub.
As debate there can be 'lively', you will need to ask rogerzilla to enable you to enter.
There be DRAGONS!
Oh, I'm not /that/ arsed tbh. Shame.
I'm 10lbs down at the weigh in this morning. Which is nice. All water like, but nice still.
I sit corrected.
There be DRAGONS thobut!
Anyone got any advice on drinks? Water is great and all, but I'd love to mix it up a bit...
Anyone got any advice on drinks? Water is great and all, but I'd love to mix it up a bit...
Water + Zero (Electrolytes)
Tesco no added sugar cloudy lemonade (you have to be able to put up with Sucralose if you want this).
Diet Coke (Aspartame - not as bad as the Permanently Paranoid would make out - but not "real").
Tea
Coffee
Green Tea
Bullet Proof coffee (Google it, and get ready to try the Hug inna Mug that is coffee + butter... Mmmm)
Vodka
Dry red wine
Beer is liquid bread, and is verboten if you're being strict - proof if you need it, there is no god.
Everything I've read has warned me off fizzy drinks? Especially diet coke/zero. Is it actually OK?
Earlier in this thread, I think someone had queried just how viable a ketogenic diet would be for going fast.
I had an interesting experience on the Whitstable FNRttC at the weekend. As I wasn't TECing, nor leading the ride for a change, I got to do a lot of waymarking involving zooming around a lot, as well as partaking in the traditional 7 mile sprint for the finish to the Waterfront Cafe.
On going through my GPS data for the final stretch, which included setting off from a stop, I found I averaged 24.7 mph with a peak of 32.3 mph and found I could do with some higher gearing than 50x11. Also, I wasn't particularly out of breath (unlike everyone I'd overtaken) and felt I could easily have carried on going, which certainly wasn't the case the last time I raced that section before I went keto, when despite doing similar riding, was completely wasted before the end.
So, totally unscientific, but I certainly felt being keto has improved my top end as well as my endurance.
Earlier in this thread, I think someone had queried just how viable a ketogenic diet would be for going fast.If you're not really out of breath, it's hardly a measure of your "top end", is it?
I had an interesting experience on the Whitstable FNRttC at the weekend. As I wasn't TECing, nor leading the ride for a change, I got to do a lot of waymarking involving zooming around a lot, as well as partaking in the traditional 7 mile sprint for the finish to the Waterfront Cafe.
On going through my GPS data for the final stretch, which included setting off from a stop, I found I averaged 24.7 mph with a peak of 32.3 mph and found I could do with some higher gearing than 50x11. Also, I wasn't particularly out of breath (unlike everyone I'd overtaken) and felt I could easily have carried on going, which certainly wasn't the case the last time I raced that section before I went keto, when despite doing similar riding, was completely wasted before the end.
So, totally unscientific, but I certainly felt being keto has improved my top end as well as my endurance.
I got a KOM the other day. Keto baby!
I got a KOM the other day. Keto baby!
I got six on one ride - plant based all the way.
Earlier in this thread, I think someone had queried just how viable a ketogenic diet would be for going fast.
I had an interesting experience on the Whitstable FNRttC at the weekend. As I wasn't TECing, nor leading the ride for a change, I got to do a lot of waymarking involving zooming around a lot, as well as partaking in the traditional 7 mile sprint for the finish to the Waterfront Cafe.
On going through my GPS data for the final stretch, which included setting off from a stop, I found I averaged 24.7 mph with a peak of 32.3 mph and found I could do with some higher gearing than 50x11. Also, I wasn't particularly out of breath (unlike everyone I'd overtaken) and felt I could easily have carried on going, which certainly wasn't the case the last time I raced that section before I went keto, when despite doing similar riding, was completely wasted before the end.
So, totally unscientific, but I certainly felt being keto has improved my top end as well as my endurance.
For balance you perhaps should have added the strong SW wind that you had behind you?
Thanks Chris. I did take a protein supplement and then did an hour of zone 1 cycling yesterday just to keep moving. May be a larger helping of protein next time.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2016/07/05/ajcn.116.133561.abstract
Study funded by organization set up by Taubes and Attia, but with independent researchers. Not the answer they were hoping for I would think.
Discussion here from Stephan Gueynet
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ie/2016/07/nusi-funded-study-serves-up_6.html?m=1
Just wondering if i can get some input from People doing significant formal training on a keto diet.
I have been following the keto diet for about 8 months now and my endurance is great.
I recently started working with a coach with more structured intense efforts.
Monday evening I did (for me) a very big set of out of the saddle power climbs, 4 strava PBs and a new power record. Tuesday ate standard keto meals. relatively poor sleep last night
This morning went to do my turbo session and legs barely managed the warmup!.
It may be that I am not recovering as well, I am 58.
It may be that I just have not recovered.
But I wondered if those doing formal training find they need to up the carbs after very intense efforts to replenish the glycogen fast enough?
Thanks for the advice.
Mike and Ely
Thank you for the input. I saw that paper and I must say that I was not overly impressed by it. I would be interested to know who designed it as it does not look much better than the majority of previous nutrition research. I certainly do not think that would be passed by any of the funding streams I apply to!!
However it does seem to suggest that, as one would expect, the situation is more complex than we simplistically think. hopefully at some point we will have get a synthesis of the various views and can move away from the bullying rhetoric of the last 50 years.
I think I will try to measure my ketones on a more regular basis and up my post exercise session carbs and see what happens.
I have no intention of going on a keto diet but I'm curious if those on it follow the 20min guideline (take on board fuel within 20min of ceasing exercise).
When I was doing lots of miles (for me) I found it made a lot of difference to my recovery. My refuelling was usually a drink that was high in protein, probably something you would regard as ok on a keto diet actually. Low carbs, I switched from commercial sports SiS recovery drinks to home-made ones based on milk with large amounts of cocoa powder (not hot chocolate powder, cocoa powder).
The more I read about LCHF diets, the more I think I would like to give it a go. But can anyone point me in the direction of the best resources to come up with meal ideas. Is there a book that could be recommended for this?
I understand your comments about using Keto to reset a bad diet and that may work for you but ... I dunno. Some describe Keto as a 'forever change and whilst there will inevitably be lapses I think that's where I'll be. I find it's exactly like being an alcoholic/drug addict; sugar - which for me includes all carb based foods - is a drug that just screws me up, and it's simpler just to swear off the stuff completely. My only regret is that I didn't find out about the Keto diet 30 years ago.
The more I read about LCHF diets, the more I think I would like to give it a go. But can anyone point me in the direction of the best resources to come up with meal ideas. Is there a book that could be recommended for this?
<...>
Im not convinced being fully Keto allows for explosive efforts or short, hard powerful intervals.
I think Chris S is far more relaxed during a ride and will partake of Cake and other nutrients.
I'm considering entering LEL, it may be my only chance at my age and think I may be better off if I'm adapted to burn fat.
Does the panel think I should reduce my high intensity training days in the gym while I go through cold turkey?
That's an interesting post Chinaski, thanks.
I was wondering if a possible half-way house would work. I've not yet bit the bullet but have gone this week (so far) simply reducing my carb intake and increasing my fat intake with following results:
Fat to carbs seems to be about evens with protein making up quite a bit of my calories. anyhow Monday was feeling a little tired mid afternoon. Tuesday is one of my HIT days in the gym and I have to say I felt somewhat lacking in energy like never before. I couldn't do the session as I was hoping, instead I managed 5 x 3.75 Min @ about 196W with my heart up @165-175. Before Christmas this level was reasonably easy to complete 3 x 10Mins with stable hr 165.
Last year I did a couple of fasted rides early morning, I managed 2.5 Hrs before my legs started feeling they needed some fuel and I stopped and ate some food.
I'm going to try and reduce my carb intake and increase my fat intake further going forwards and see if this helps. By the way my poop was a definite lighter shade of sand this morning, like Aunti Helen reported. Don't know if this means my body is already accepting some changes.
I'm about halfway through this, interesting read
"Evidence that supports the prescription of low-carbohydrate high-fat diets: a narrative review"
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full (http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full)
All very interesting. Is the "fat adaptation" thing thought to be an on/off phenomenon, or continuous? Tim Noakes, for instance, writes about 25-30g carbs/day being necessary to ensure fat burning and ketogenesis, but without necessarily varying that figure according to body mass (whether ideal or actual).
In other words, can one be "fat adapted" at 29g carbs/day and "carb adapted" at (say) 50g/day? Surely it's continuous? I know of few physiological processes that really are on/off (mast cell degranulation being the only one I can think of off-hand).
Thanks Chinaski,
I understand the base science to some degree (at least I think I do). My question was badly phrased - I was asking whether the switch between "traditional" and LCHF diets had been studied in terms of how respiratory quotient changes over a range of carbohydrate intake. Intuitively, would be a relatively easy study to do.
I can fast for three/four days without any lack of energy. Indeed, by day three I'm often bouncing off the walls; and the mental focus that comes is unreal.
I haven't done enough longer fasts to have a view on that one yet. From what I've read, loss of lean mass is not huge, and only lasts until ketosis kicks in - so if you're already on a LCHF diet, that's probably quite promptly after starting the fast.I can fast for three/four days without any lack of energy. Indeed, by day three I'm often bouncing off the walls; and the mental focus that comes is unreal.
Do you notice any loss of muscle mass on 3/4 fasts?
I've no problem doing 24hr fasts, but anything longer and I'm usually thinking about all that heavy lifting for 6 months of the year going to waste ::-)
I can fast for three/four days without any lack of energy. Indeed, by day three I'm often bouncing off the walls; and the mental focus that comes is unreal
I'm about halfway through this, interesting read
"Evidence that supports the prescription of low-carbohydrate high-fat diets: a narrative review"
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full (http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full)
As soon as I saw Noakes name at the top I stopped reading.
I'm about halfway through this, interesting read
"Evidence that supports the prescription of low-carbohydrate high-fat diets: a narrative review"
http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full (http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/2/133.full)
As soon as I saw Noakes name at the top I stopped reading.
No surprise there.
I am just reducing my crap carbs and increasing my fat intake at present and am noticing that when I increase fat the protein also increases. I thought we were supposed to be keeping protein low also, or am I missing something?
You don't need to be in good health to do good science.
Nonsense!You don't need to be in good health to do good science.
You do when you are advocating eating a particular type of diet.
Nonsense!You don't need to be in good health to do good science.
You do when you are advocating eating a particular type of diet.
What if your scientist has specific conditions that stop him/her eating that diet, or made him ill before he started his research? Are you going to ignore him, and listen to some genetically lucky elite athlete who can't spell, let alone understand biochemistry?
Fat is energy dense - so you don't need vast amounts make up the calories - and you'll feel satiated, and the food tastes richer, and yummier.
Not strictly following a keto diet, but we tried to reduce refined sugar as much as possible. There is one very annoying downside for me: everything now seems to have a sugary taste, from beer, to tomato juice. I never realized before that all beers have a sweet taste! Am I the only one to be annoyed by this effect?
I had half a tin of soup recently (Heinz chicken noodle) and couldn't finish it because it was SO sweet
The danger is that rather than being a little bit LCHF you end up HCHF and everyone agrees that's a Bad Thing.
I'm mulling this over a bit too.
I'm 7 weeks into LCHF and have found the last two weeks harder, plus my weight has crept slightly upward over that time (statistical noise I think as I am doing everything the same). I have started to think fondly of a few items with carbs such as apples which I would like to eat
Thank you for the comments.
Interestingly I am almost at my 'natural' weight of 93kg. This is my usual summer weight which I find myself at when riding a lot in the summer and being more outdoorsy. Of course it is a very high weight for a 176cm woman but I have always been overweight. If I forget about food and just enjoy the summer I tend to end up at this weight, so I do wonder if this is somehow my default weight (I've hovered around here for the last 20 years). I would like to get my weight lower as that would make life easier but I am basically pleased to have dropped the extra 8kg that I had put on over winter. I will see where things go - I'm on holiday next week in Tenerife so I am guessing the nice food will be rather a draw, although salads will be more appealing when it's 23 degrees outside...
This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e09wQl1kkCE&feature=youtu.be) is interesting.
The organsations website hasn't updated its guidance yet though.
a table groaning under the weight of pastries, doughnuts, and cakes.
I wouldn't go near that diet, at least not without a monthly cholesterol test. Being a bit fat* isn't as bad as a stroke.
Except they haven't. It is supposition. Very poor 'science'.I wouldn't go near that diet, at least not without a monthly cholesterol test. Being a bit fat* isn't as bad as a stroke.
A quote from Ancel Keys of all people
"There's no connection whatsoever with cholesterol in food and cholesterol in blood. We have known that all along"
https://goo.gl/mmLYtz
I wouldn't go near that diet, at least not without a monthly cholesterol test. Being a bit fat* isn't as bad as a stroke.
As an aside, did anyone else look at the groaning table at the beginning of "Dr" Gillian McKeith's "You Are What You Eat", and think, "Yum!"? ;D
*I can lose weight by eating a bit less crap, e.g. substituting fruit for chocolate. The energy in/energy out balance is muddled by metabolic rate. Walking a substantial distance each day (3 miles or so) is a good way to keep stuff burning.
The problem with all such diets is that people cherry-pick information to suit their choices. Information is unavoidably incomplete, but the consensus amongst dietitians and nutrition scientists based all the available evidence is – as ever – to eat a balanced diet (and yes avoid lots of sugar and lots of fat, but no need to excude), don't smoke, drink in moderation, do regular aerobic exercise, and avoid wrestling tigers. The final one is very important, since it can undo all the others.
Everyone is capable of eating a balanced diet. They either don't to or they're bombarded with information about diet. Don't eat this, don't eat that, eat this, eat that. Etc. Etc. Clean eating. Fasting. Low Carb. Low Fat. Blah blah. No, I'm right, here's a bloke on YouTube or a single scientific paper that proves.
Look, I'm happy for anyone to eat whatever. But I'm against the weirding of what we eat. The subsumption of simple dietary advice into a morass of conflicting information and claims. There's huge industries and careers built around diet. The simple advice gets lost.
I think you'll find that more people over the age 70 aren't endurance athletes than are.
The problem with all such diets is that people cherry-pick information to suit their choices. Information is unavoidably incomplete, but the consensus amongst dietitians and nutrition scientists based all the available evidence is – as ever – to eat a balanced diet (and yes avoid lots of sugar and lots of fat, but no need to exclude), don't smoke, drink in moderation, do regular aerobic exercise, and avoid wrestling tigers. The final one is very important, since it can undo all the others.
I don't think their parents, three of whom lived well into their 90s, ate or avoided anything very special. They kept Kosher, ate plenty though not excessively and enjoyed life.
http://www.angry-chef.com/blog/the-natural-alternative-part-1/ (http://www.angry-chef.com/blog/the-natural-alternative-part-1/)
Plus - no tigers in the Fens, unless you count Littleport
Plus - no tigers in the Fens, unless you count Littleport
But plenty of Fen Tigers (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fen_Tigers). ;D
Plus - no tigers in the Fens, unless you count Littleport
But plenty of Fen Tigers (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fen_Tigers). ;D
Yep, those.
Also look up Littleport Riots
At least I get to eat bacon.
4 weeks in and down another 0.5st, currently sat at just above 15st (96.2kg) going the right way :)
Legs feel ok until I come to a hill then I slow right down, may be just that I've been riding the recumbent for the 1st time since May as been riding SS and Fixed since the middle of June.
Question for the the long distance riders (yes I may try and get back into it!).
On long rides do you just fuel with fats or use small amounts of carbs? Have read that some trickle glycogen to the muscles by eating smarties every 20 minutes or so.
Don't suppose it really matters at audax speeds.
I don't use twitter but 1.5g/min is 90g per hour which I thought was what non fat adapted people were taking in per hour anyway?
trying to get back on to this, I've let slip for about 8 months, due to work and little cycling, and swmbo insisting that 'fat is bad for you'. Any way regarding carb intake, what would the panel think is an ok max , per day, ie 1 slice of toast, and/or 1 pack crisps, and /or 2 small potatoes, and/or small portion of rice/couscous, not all obviously. :facepalm:
I don't use twitter but 1.5g/min is 90g per hour which I thought was what non fat adapted people were taking in per hour anyway?
I get the impression you need to keep consistently active to keep the ketone generator running. Call that, 'positive reinforcement'...
Having undone most of the good work of last year, I'm back on the straight n narrow.Manotea wrote me a long PM last year before I started my Keto and it was really encouraging and helpful.
Day 10. Got the carbs out of my system by now but still feeling not up to snuff. I blame that more on lack of riding than ketoflu.
Did about 80km yesterday riding hardish but feeling fairly flat today with ~60km mostly at carbobonk speeds.
I get the impression you need to keep consistently active to keep the ketone generator running. Call that, 'positive reinforcement'...
Time will tell
Having undone most of the good work of last year, I'm back on the straight n narrow.Manotea wrote me a long PM last year before I started my Keto and it was really encouraging and helpful.
Day 10. Got the carbs out of my system by now but still feeling not up to snuff. I blame that more on lack of riding than ketoflu.
Did about 80km yesterday riding hardish but feeling fairly flat today with ~60km mostly at carbobonk speeds.
I get the impression you need to keep consistently active to keep the ketone generator running. Call that, 'positive reinforcement'...
Time will tell
I did Keto last year until March when I went on holiday with my Mum and it worried her what I was eating. To calm her fears I ate more normal food... and fell out of the habit.
Klaus my partner and I started proper Keto on 1 January. We are doing it together which makes it much easier - we plan to do it absolutely properly until the end of June (i.e. give it 6 months) and see how we feel afterwards. He only needs to lose 8kg and has already lost 2, I need to lose 30! (but have lost 6).
We're eating some really nice meals and enjoying breakfasting together. I am also doing the 18:6 fasting on Tuesdays and Thursdays and I find that really easy so far as well. Klaus needs food at 10:30 after breakfast at 6:00, so he has a packed lunch from me of nuts, cheese, olives, mini salami and other goodies that he snacks on during the day.
What has been interesting has been to see the different ways our bodies react. I am mostly not hungry, he is still hungry. I went into Ketosis quickly (according to the Ketostix), he took longer. He is apparently completely out of Ketosis (according to Ketostix) and mine is reducing, but as we are eating the same I think this is that we have already stopped secreting ketones in pee. Which is annoying, as we wanted to use the Ketostix to try to find our optimum carbs.
I am eating about 30g net carbs per day, Klaus 40-50.
I forgot how wonderful it is to not always be hungry, but am struggling again with the very poor choice of desserts (Mascarpone mousse or greek yoghurt for us). I have tried two Keto dessert recipes over the past 2 evenings and they were both no good. It's a bit disappointing!
I would do both of those without the sweetener personally.
I like the sound of the cheesecake, essentially as per normal just minus the biscuit crumb base
Klaus my partner and I started proper Keto on 1 January.
slightly different perspective here, but I don't worry about ingesting moderate carbs during exercise as they do not generally contribute too much to blood sugar rise as they are metabolised very quickly and will contribute part of the energy balance without excluding fat burning as well - my understanding is that both will go on in parallel, but we can shift the balance one way or another.
slightly different perspective here, but I don't worry about ingesting moderate carbs during exercise as they do not generally contribute too much to blood sugar rise as they are metabolised very quickly and will contribute part of the energy balance without excluding fat burning as well - my understanding is that both will go on in parallel, but we can shift the balance one way or another.
My approach also is to eat carbs tactically when I think I need some quick access to extra fuel. This really tends to be before and after fast runs.
Otherwise I try to go carb free for exercise, but that is mainly as I am trying really hard to lose fat and weight. If I was at race weight (which will never happen) then I think tactical, drip feeding of carbs during hard exercise is absolutely the way to go. Train low but race high theory.
slightly different perspective here, but I don't worry about ingesting moderate carbs during exercise as they do not generally contribute too much to blood sugar rise as they are metabolised very quickly and will contribute part of the energy balance without excluding fat burning as well - my understanding is that both will go on in parallel, but we can shift the balance one way or another.
My approach also is to eat carbs tactically when I think I need some quick access to extra fuel. This really tends to be before and after fast runs.
Otherwise I try to go carb free for exercise, but that is mainly as I am trying really hard to lose fat and weight. If I was at race weight (which will never happen) then I think tactical, drip feeding of carbs during hard exercise is absolutely the way to go. Train low but race high theory.
Hard sessions should really not need carbs due to the adrenaline causing the liver to dump glycogen, similarly short sessions should not need carbs as this will prevent, or at least limit fat burning significantly
AIUI High dose caffeine is ergogenic and mobilises fat. I believe very high doses are banned under doping regulations.
Simon's lab presumably had reasons for advising against caffeine.
Hard sessions should really not need carbs due to the adrenaline causing the liver to dump glycogen, similarly short sessions should not need carbs as this will prevent, or at least limit fat burning significantly
Hard sessions should really not need carbs due to the adrenaline causing the liver to dump glycogen, similarly short sessions should not need carbs as this will prevent, or at least limit fat burning significantly
Sorry, didn’t make myself clear. Agree that you don’t need to feed carbs before a hard session, assuming it’s not a really long one of course, but you do fuel with carb (glycogen) at high intensity. For an athlete doing this type of session several days a week, say an 800m or 5,000m runner (and possibly sprinters too, not my area) you almost certainly need to consume some carb after the session to replenish stocks. Protein is a very expensive source of the amount of carb you might need, and it may also take a bit too long to replenish.
I suspect we’re agreed in fact, just I wasn’t clear.
Mike
How does the panel on HFLC deal with the need for fibre and roughage?i use a lot of linseed, chuck them in scrambled eggs or on my salads. I get them free from work (food ingredients manufacturer) but they are available in most health food shops and large supermarkets here in Germany.
How does the panel on HFLC deal with the need for fibre and roughage?
How does the panel on HFLC deal with the need for fibre and roughage?
Hey there, Von Broad!
I'm a Ted Naiman fan bois, and I cannot lie.
Diet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzcOz38FjaU&t=26s
Exercise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlYXb1xs86U
I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?
QuoteI assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?
We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.
QuoteI assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?
We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.
Ok. So that period would have naturally 'thrown you out of ketosis'
...according to To, he can sustain 250W at a heart rate of just 115bpm
Looks like Ian To will be keto for his LEJOG attempt:So where does milk (or dilute milk in his case) fit into the Keto spectrum?
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/lands-end-john-o-groats-cycling-record-52241/
Looks like Ian To will be keto for his LEJOG attempt:So where does milk (or dilute milk in his case) fit into the Keto spectrum?
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/lands-end-john-o-groats-cycling-record-52241/
I assumed it had too much sugar in ... :-\
Looks like Ian To will be keto for his LEJOG attempt:So where does milk (or dilute milk in his case) fit into the Keto spectrum?
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/lands-end-john-o-groats-cycling-record-52241/
I assumed it had too much sugar in ... :-\
https://peterattiamd.com/ketones-carbohydrates-can-co-exist/
QuoteI assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?
We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.
QuoteI assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?
We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.
.....A ketogenic diet (or fasting) can train your body to switch to fat burning. Some people find it extremely hard but, as an Audaxer, I think i was well conditioned for ketosis.
Ketones are a more efficient fuel for your brain, that's why people experience a clarity of thought in ketosis. It's assumed that ketosis is evolution's way of making you more efficient at locating your next meal. You think better, you move better, you catch Antelopes better. Why would evolution make you worse at catching Antelopes when you were hungry?
So Ketosis isn't a fad, it's a natural state for us to be in. Think what our eating patterns were when we all lived on the plains of Africa, as hunter-gathers. Hungry...hungry...hungry...hungry... ANTELOPE FOR DINNER!!!!
QuoteI assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?
We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.
.....A ketogenic diet (or fasting) can train your body to switch to fat burning. Some people find it extremely hard but, as an Audaxer, I think i was well conditioned for ketosis.
Ketones are a more efficient fuel for your brain, that's why people experience a clarity of thought in ketosis. It's assumed that ketosis is evolution's way of making you more efficient at locating your next meal. You think better, you move better, you catch Antelopes better. Why would evolution make you worse at catching Antelopes when you were hungry?
So Ketosis isn't a fad, it's a natural state for us to be in. Think what our eating patterns were when we all lived on the plains of Africa, as hunter-gathers. Hungry...hungry...hungry...hungry... ANTELOPE FOR DINNER!!!!
I'm by no means on a keto diet but am fat adapted on a bike ride, longish days spent on a trainer putting out a low endurance power with just water will soon get you fat adapted - you don't need to go into ketosis.
And ketosis is a fad, a diet originally meant to treat epilepsy, it's now Atkins remarketed and rebranded and resold to fools who follow the marketing garb which beings me nicely to my next point:-
We are not hunter gathers, we are not on the plains of Africa, you buy your Elk pre-packed in a supermarket so knock the appeal to nature bullshit on the head eh? You are aware that the hunter gatherers from back in the day only lived until their late 30's (on average).
You are aware that the hunter gatherers from back in the day only lived until their late 30's (on average).That age is low because there were a lot of deaths at birth which will bring the average down.
I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.
QuoteI'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.
Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).
One of the attractions of the Keto diet is that there is no real commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.
In fact it's a bit like riding fixed. It's an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...
QuoteI'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.
Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).
One of the attractions of the Keto diet for me is that there is no commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.
In fact it's a bit like riding fixed, which similarly offers an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...
In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.
QuoteI assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?
We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.
.....A ketogenic diet (or fasting) can train your body to switch to fat burning. Some people find it extremely hard but, as an Audaxer, I think i was well conditioned for ketosis.
Ketones are a more efficient fuel for your brain, that's why people experience a clarity of thought in ketosis. It's assumed that ketosis is evolution's way of making you more efficient at locating your next meal. You think better, you move better, you catch Antelopes better. Why would evolution make you worse at catching Antelopes when you were hungry?
So Ketosis isn't a fad, it's a natural state for us to be in. Think what our eating patterns were when we all lived on the plains of Africa, as hunter-gathers. Hungry...hungry...hungry...hungry... ANTELOPE FOR DINNER!!!!
I'm by no means on a keto diet but am fat adapted on a bike ride, longish days spent on a trainer putting out a low endurance power with just water will soon get you fat adapted - you don't need to go into ketosis.
And ketosis is a fad, a diet originally meant to treat epilepsy, it's now Atkins remarketed and rebranded and resold to fools who follow the marketing garb which beings me nicely to my next point:-
We are not hunter gathers, we are not on the plains of Africa, you buy your Elk pre-packed in a supermarket so knock the appeal to nature bullshit on the head eh? You are aware that the hunter gatherers from back in the day only lived until their late 30's (on average).
Ketosis is basically "running on fat" so, on very long rides, you may find yourself in Ketosis whether you want to be in it or not. It's a physiological condition not a lifestyle choice.
I assumed people died young back then but for a variety of reasons, including Lions, starvation, disease....... but mainly disease I think (as millions of poor Africans still do).
I'm not appealing to nature bullshitting. I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity. We evolved over millions of years to efficiently store and subsequently burn fat reserves (Ketosis) but we've out-accelerated a million years of evolution in about 200 years to the point that all we do is store fat and never access it again.
Here's the problem. We actually still are hunter-gatherers. It just got way too easy to gather.
QuoteI'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.
Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).
One of the attractions of the Keto diet is that there is no real commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.
In fact it's a bit like riding fixed. It's an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...
Intermittent Fasting scares thew shit out of the food industry. Apart from a million books on the subject there's no money in people not eating food.
QuoteI'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.
Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).
One of the attractions of the Keto diet for me is that there is no commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.
In fact it's a bit like riding fixed, which similarly offers an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...
Erm, if you've been to a shop recently you might have noticed that keto/low carb etc. is a hugely commercial proposition. Not to mention the books, blogs, and numerous other cash-ins. It's big money.
Advertising and availability have convinced people to eat too much crap food, that's true. Dietetic and nutritional advice has been consistent: eat a balanced diet, eat your greens, avoid processed food, watch your portion size, and do plenty of exercise. Sadly there's no money or commercial edge in that. No diet or fad that can be packaged up. No dubious and cherry-picked science. No zingy advertising. It's dull, sensible, works, and is probably the easiest 'diet' to adhere to.
QuoteI'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.
Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).
One of the attractions of the Keto diet is that there is no real commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.
In fact it's a bit like riding fixed. It's an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...
Intermittent Fasting scares thew shit out of the food industry. Apart from a million books on the subject there's no money in people not eating food.
:facepalm: I'll bet, the medical profession love it though.
In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.
A lot of folk on plant-based diets would very much concur with that sentiment too of course [at least the ones on Leftpondian You Tube I've been listening too this week :-)] but they just choose to eat different 'real and readily available food stuffs'.
I'm very much on the terraces with this one, but a fascinating game it most definitely is Brian.
Reserch has shown that insulin spikes more from white mash with a tuna steak then the white mash on it's own -which is due to saturated fat which increases insulin resistence hence more insulin is induced which can lead to diabetes.
QuoteReserch has shown that insulin spikes more from white mash with a tuna steak then the white mash on it's own -which is due to saturated fat which increases insulin resistence hence more insulin is induced which can lead to diabetes.
But wasn't it the white mash which caused the insulin spike in the first place? No white mash, no insulin spike.
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..???? And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?
The tuna steak, which is recommended on diabetic diet websites because it is low carb, caused the insulin spike?
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..???? And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..???? And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?
Many high protein foods have a higher insulin response per calorie consumed than high carb foods.
For instant beef and fish both have a higher insulin response than porridge.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_index
Note also that porridge also has a higher satiety score than beef.
The point about standard dietary advice would carry a bit more weight if the average western diet bore any resemblance to the recommended diet.
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..???? And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?
One of the jobs of insulin is to act as a gatekeeper for cells to absorb sugar, sugar being any form of mono or disaccharide. Saturated fat can hinder this process ( a bit like chewing gum being stuck in the lock) so the absoprtion rate goes down and therefore more insulin is released. Not to mention that animal protein ain't a good thing for the body to metabolise.
I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)In my opinion you will never see such a study (nor set of studies!); the reason being the range of our omnivourism (is that a real word?). Humans, their ancestors, and their various sub-tribes have lived in very varied environments. The eskimo-types living mostly on polar-bears and whale blubber being one example (that I'm sure has been talked about somewhere in these 34 pages!)
I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)In my opinion you will never see such a study (nor set of studies!); the reason being the range of our omnivourism (is that a real word?). Humans, their ancestors, and their various sub-tribes have lived in very varied environments. The eskimo-types living mostly on polar-bears and whale blubber being one example (that I'm sure has been talked about somewhere in these 34 pages!)
But I agree with you - refined sugar and alcohol would probably be absent!
LMT appears to speak from a vegetarian/vegan position rather than a neutral fact based position - the use of 'in my opinion' reflects the position exactly.
Lee seeking justification from antelope eating ancestors has ignored the likelihood that a hunter gatherer also gathers and may well subsist on berries, fruit vegetables and honey, with antelope being a rare treat. Plus antelope, in my experience, is usually pretty low in fat (as is tuna!)
Obviously, in the developed west we are able to easily eat far too much of everything and do far too little. Plus we are drawn to do this by ever more tempting treats and a self indulgent culture, encouraged, if not propagated, by the advertising industry. It may even be necessary for our economic model...
I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)
You won't find such a study for the reason that it is potentially immoral.
It's very much why you'll never find a study which conclusively states as a fact that if you smoke you'll get cancer, because forcing someone to smoke (even though they do anyway) in an effort to see if they develop cancer is again morally wrong.
LMT appears to speak from a vegetarian/vegan position rather than a neutral fact based position - the use of 'in my opinion' reflects the position exactly.
Lee seeking justification from antelope eating ancestors has ignored the likelihood that a hunter gatherer also gathers and may well subsist on berries, fruit vegetables and honey, with antelope being a rare treat. Plus antelope, in my experience, is usually pretty low in fat (as is tuna!)
Obviously, in the developed west we are able to easily eat far too much of everything and do far too little. Plus we are drawn to do this by ever more tempting treats and a self indulgent culture, encouraged, if not propagated, by the advertising industry. It may even be necessary for our economic model...
I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)
and most studies are then biased it seems nowadays by the influence of big food and veganism
I can't think of anything worse than a diet based on fat. Other than some eskimos eating seals, I can't quite figure out whether there is some long term evidence of any benefit. There are certainly long term studies on the detrimental effects of animal fats, saturated fats and transfats.
I can't think of anything worse than a diet based on fat. Other than some eskimos eating seals, I can't quite figure out whether there is some long term evidence of any benefit. There are certainly long term studies on the detrimental effects of animal fats, saturated fats and transfats.
I could quote you loads of articles and books to read on this, some think it is a cult science issue I guess.
But in layman's terms Fat for energy is the bodies's preferred energy source. Carbs is used first if available as it is a quick access so for power events etc.
However for us in the Audax world etc we would be mainly riding in our fat burning zones and if you become errficent at these levels (only way to do that is to drop the carbs as a primary food source) then in my example makes massive improvements.
Best example was I did the marmot in 2016 - finished in 11:01 then went Keto, could do 4 hour fasted rides and next year did the Marmotte in 9:02 with no food during the ride.
and the differences int he pictures between the two clear for all to see
My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheeseI'd rather eat n kJ worth of bacon/cheese than from refined sugar. (Alongside some green stuff - or a LOT of green stuff if I am virtuous enough.)
My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheese
Define that bit for me? Preferred in what way?
Fat burning zones don't really exist either, you burn marginally more fat at lower intensities, but it is so minimal that it's almost irrelevant.
Your Marmotte experience, whilst an interesting anecdote, is pretty useless as an example in this discussion.
Basing your diet on this 'keto' for performance gain is clearly not the answer, nor is your physical overall health going to benefit from it when compared to a balanced diet based around vegetables and whole foods.
My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheeseI'd rather eat n kJ worth of bacon/cheese than from refined sugar. (Alongside some green stuff - or a LOT of green stuff if I am virtuous enough.)
That is the (somewhat condensed) point of all this; not "eating just cheese-n-pies is really good for you". ::-)
My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheeseI'd rather eat n kJ worth of bacon/cheese than from refined sugar. (Alongside some green stuff - or a LOT of green stuff if I am virtuous enough.)
That is the (somewhat condensed) point of all this; not "eating just cheese-n-pies is really good for you". ::-)
Yes, probably eating bacon is better than fuelling yourself with full fat coke on the day of your brevet, but as a habit I am not even sure that is the case. Glycemic index is an issue, but overall cholesterol is a bigger issue and it's more likely that you get type 2 diabetes out of being obese than out of screwing your insulin levels on a daily basis... there are many ways of becoming obese, some rely on sugar, some rely on fat.
I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.
What I say is that there is nothing wrong at all in a diet largely based on starch and fiber. There are plenty of long living populations who in essence eat just that (rice or else and vegetables). Long living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine... I'd like to see how the French Paradox fares with a "Tanzanian access to health care"...
Define that bit for me? Preferred in what way?
Fat burning zones don't really exist either, you burn marginally more fat at lower intensities, but it is so minimal that it's almost irrelevant.
Your Marmotte experience, whilst an interesting anecdote, is pretty useless as an example in this discussion.
Basing your diet on this 'keto' for performance gain is clearly not the answer, nor is your physical overall health going to benefit from it when compared to a balanced diet based around vegetables and whole foods.
read the FASTER study and shows when fully fat adapted at low to moderate range of intensity you burn fat at a very high level, if not explain how I could do a 200km ride fasted ?
as for mentioning whole foods, there is no better whole food than Meat, totally unprocessed unlike say any wheat based product you care to mention, try and eat wheat raw or unprocessed
You cannot do better than a balanced diet.
My interest in nutrition is not sport related... I am not particularly fussed about what I eat during an audax 6 times per year... I would like to avoid disease on a daily basis and it seems to me if you want high cholesterol and a life of misery, then high fat diet is the way to go. Of course some will only eat walnuts and mackerel, but I suspect most will fry bacon and eat pie and a lot of cheeseI'd rather eat n kJ worth of bacon/cheese than from refined sugar. (Alongside some green stuff - or a LOT of green stuff if I am virtuous enough.)
That is the (somewhat condensed) point of all this; not "eating just cheese-n-pies is really good for you". ::-)
Yes, probably eating bacon is better than fuelling yourself with full fat coke on the day of your brevet, but as a habit I am not even sure that is the case. Glycemic index is an issue, but overall cholesterol is a bigger issue and it's more likely that you get type 2 diabetes out of being obese than out of screwing your insulin levels on a daily basis... there are many ways of becoming obese, some rely on sugar, some rely on fat.
I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.
What I say is that there is nothing wrong at all in a diet largely based on starch and fiber. There are plenty of long living populations who in essence eat just that (rice or else and vegetables). Long living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine... I'd like to see how the French Paradox fares with a "Tanzanian access to health care"...
you know of no one who eats refined sugar ? not a single person as most processed foods have it in ....
and why fibre ? I eat prob less than 10grams a day and I have never been so regular or fine in that area, in fact on rides as a carb burner I used to get awful stomach issues, no longer.
and you are aware of satiety levels, you can not eat fat past feeling full, you can with carbs. and I believe as many do now in the insulin model of being fat and fat does not cause T2D but the other way round, have you checked out Robert Lustig's video's on sugar etc. Are you aware that carb's turn into sugar in your body, in essence they are no different from eating 200 calories of wheat and 200 calories of sugar.
Clearly you have done a lot of investigations and keep quoting names I have never heard before. I simply stick to the guidelines of NHS and WHO, which might be boring and dated, but are based on solid science... so try to keep a low cholesterol, have reduced salt and steer clear of known carcinogenic... like bacon for instance.
It seems to work for me, in the sense that I no longer have weight oscillations and have reduced cholesterol and blood pressure to within the guidelines. If it didn't work, I too might have tried some magic potion from the web :thumbsup:
I hope we can reduce the carbs a bit more next year as I really did feel brilliant in my body.
And where I really disagree is that WHO PHE and others are the proper sources. IMHO they are all compromised by various factions, biog food, Vegan etc ...
And where I really disagree is that WHO PHE and others are the proper sources. IMHO they are all compromised by various factions, biog food, Vegan etc ...
... that sounds a bit conspiracy theory to be honest. I think WHO are pretty radical when they say processed meat IS carcinogenic, probably more radical than some guys on youtube...
...you say meat causes cancer, can you show me the science of that
...you say meat causes cancer, can you show me the science of that
He didn't say exactly that.
https://www.nhs.uk/news/cancer/processed-meat-causes-cancer-warns-who-report/
...you say meat causes cancer, can you show me the science of that
He didn't say exactly that.
https://www.nhs.uk/news/cancer/processed-meat-causes-cancer-warns-who-report/
That’s the report I meant, firstly says processed meat and then was on a correlation report not causation. Some say nitrates but many veggies contain that and the food studies as I said based on recall diaries
This science was known in the 1970s... problem is, the alternative is to NOT use nitrites in processed meats and get botulism instead... grim option if you ask me
Actually, there are alternatives to nitrites in preserved meats (you can buy nitrite-free preserved meats). To be honest, to have a significantly elevated risk of cancer as an individual, you'd probably have to eat a lot of preserved meats, which means you likely have a poor diet anyway, hence a lot of confounding risk factors.
I don't, sadly, think that there's a big conspiracy to foist balanced diets on people. The Radical Spinach Front and the Provision Brocolli Faction only exist in my head. The opposite is unfortunately true. I suspect any radically unbalanced diet will eventually entail problems, excess carbs on the pancreas, fat on the cardiovascular system, and protein on the liver and kidneys.
Actually, there are alternatives to nitrites in preserved meats (you can buy nitrite-free preserved meats). To be honest, to have a significantly elevated risk of cancer as an individual, you'd probably have to eat a lot of preserved meats, which means you likely have a poor diet anyway, hence a lot of confounding risk factors.
When I ate bacon, I used to buy nitrite free from The Fruit Pig Company, although it wasn't clear what they used instead, in order to avoid colonies of clostridium botulinum.
I appreciate the risk is relatively small, but my anecdotal evidence on the topic is quite compelling. I come from an area in northern Italy where many people used to make their own salami... the incidence of bowel cancer (among other cancers of the digestive system) is huge.
The funniest thing is that many blame the plume of radioactive dust from Chernobyl for that. People would go a long way to deny the most obvious evidence...
Really?? It's in pretty much all processed food, and it's the main ingredient of that white powder people put in their tea-n-coffee. (Do you know any real people?? )
I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.
Long living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine.What are you talking about now?? No-one here is suggesting a boycott on vegetables!
I don't often bake a cake, but when I do, it certainly has refined sugar in it.
Last night's effort: 200g butter, 200g sugar, 200g flour, 4 eggs, and about 500g of apples.
Quite a lot of sugar in there and much of what isn't is refined carbs in the flour.
In the US diet, kind of food is the number 1 source of calories. ("Grain based desserts").
I'd like to know which dietary advice the Americans are following that says "let them eat cake".
[/b]I don't often bake a cake, but when I do, it certainly has refined sugar in it.
Last night's effort: 200g butter, 200g sugar, 200g flour, 4 eggs, and about 500g of apples.
Quite a lot of sugar in there and much of what isn't is refined carbs in the flour.
In the US diet, kind of food is the number 1 source of calories. ("Grain based desserts").
I'd like to know which dietary advice the Americans are following that says "let them eat cake".
Also an hell of a lot of sugar in those apples, natural sugar is no different from refined
Also an hell of a lot of sugar in those apples, natural sugar is no different from refined
Also an hell of a lot of sugar in those apples, natural sugar is no different from refined
Don't start with that nonsense. Someone mentioned something equally stupid at work the other day with regards to me eating a banana comparing it to a Mars bar and I just laughed and left the conversation.
I don't know anyone who has gotten fat from eating fruit.
Really?? It's in pretty much all processed food, and it's the main ingredient of that white powder people put in their tea-n-coffee. (Do you know any real people?? )
I don't really know anyone who eats refined sugar, so I can't comment on that.QuoteLong living populations eating mainly animal proteins and fats are only long living because of a large intervention of medicine.What are you talking about now?? No-one here is suggesting a boycott on vegetables!
What next: "Silly vegetarians - living off toffee and chips. They should stick to a balanced diet!"
Oh, there's certainly a known risk factor, but generally, unless you're habitually eating a lot of preserved meat, it's not a big threat.
I'm pretty sure somewhere in the American South they have deep-fried bacon toffee. They have bacon everything. Sprinkled on a bottomless bowl of fries...
Well, you were talking about eating refined sugar and I meant just that. Sugar is in most sweet foods... what can I say? At least it is not a known carcinogenic and if it's bad for kids it's not really something that concerns me
Well, you were talking about eating refined sugar and I meant just that. Sugar is in most sweet foods... what can I say? At least it is not a known carcinogenic and if it's bad for kids it's not really something that concerns me
But it is carcinogenic. According to their latest advertising campaign Cancer Research UK think Obesity is the second largest preventable cause of cancer. I loathe their wording- it's not that obesity causes cancer, but the things that make you fat also give you cancer. And a lot of that is sugar.
Eating cake is fine. Eating it every day less so. The idea of toffee and chips is certainly intriguing but perhaps isn't to be advised. I'm pretty sure somewhere in the American South they have deep-fried bacon toffee. They have bacon everything. Sprinkled on a bottomless bowl of fries...
I'm pretty sure somewhere in the American South they have deep-fried bacon toffee. They have bacon everything. Sprinkled on a bottomless bowl of fries...
They also have the highest rate of diabetes, heart disease and bowel cancer in the western world... west aside, probably only bettered by the Vodka guzzling coutries.
I don't share your optimism on the "low risk" associated with processed meat
Anyway, back to ketogenic... I am not so sure we evolved as "fat eaters", our ancestors (and by that I mean apes rather than Neanderthals) have a diet largely based on sugars (simple and complex) and fibre and our digestive system is not at all dissimilar to that of a chimp BUT a lot different to that of rodents (as an example of fat eaters) or big cats (as an example of pure meat eaters)
Anyway, eating large amounts of fat is well-established to have adverse consequences for cardiovascular health.
Anyway, eating large amounts of fat is well-established to have adverse consequences for cardiovascular health.
This keeps getting thrown out, can you please show me the metabolic science that backs this up ?
I can guide you proper science with metabolic pathways that states this, can you do the same ?
This is from Wiki and of course I can show you keto articles saying the same - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acid_metabolism fat does not become fat.
A calorie is not a calorie - See Robert Lustig easy to understand Youtube articles using proper science
Remember we were once told to stop eating so many eggs as they were large cholesterol foods and that would cause us heart attacks, well that advice has been dropped as eating it does not mean it gets stored as that.
... and if you eat a "large enough amount" of anything it will be bad for you!
Subbing nuts/cheese calories for the bread ones won't by itself give you dangerous amounts of fat.
This keeps getting thrown out,
Slightly OT- Storable carbs gave us literacy and culture. Hunter-gatherers only sit down to chat, draw, read and write until the next meal...They also gave us wars, famines, plagues- larger families, larger settlements and higher infant mortality. A societal boom-bust.
Anyway, eating large amounts of fat is well-established to have adverse consequences for cardiovascular health.
This keeps getting thrown out, can you please show me the metabolic science that backs this up ?
I can guide you proper science with metabolic pathways that states this, can you do the same ?
This is from Wiki and of course I can show you keto articles saying the same - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acid_metabolism fat does not become fat.
A calorie is not a calorie - See Robert Lustig easy to understand Youtube articles using proper science
Remember we were once told to stop eating so many eggs as they were large cholesterol foods and that would cause us heart attacks, well that advice has been dropped as eating it does not mean it gets stored as that.
Just remind me of the three macro nutrients we do not need to eat as we produce it ourselves to live ?
Because since the 70’s all we heard was fat is bad, it causes heart attacks etc so there was a massive shift from fat to carb based meals. At exactly the same time been a massive rise in obesity so there is a correlation and I believe a causation ...
And why ?
Because science shows carbs do fill an hunger gap in the short term but quickly afterwards you become hungry again, whereas fat has a much greater satiety levels and now I never snack between meals as never hungry !
Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could
Because since the 70’s all we heard was fat is bad, it causes heart attacks etc so there was a massive shift from fat to carb based meals. At exactly the same time been a massive rise in obesity so there is a correlation and I believe a causation ...
And why ?
Because science shows carbs do fill an hunger gap in the short term but quickly afterwards you become hungry again, whereas fat has a much greater satiety levels and now I never snack between meals as never hungry !
Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could
You've not answered my question.
And the rise in obesity you blame entirely on carbs? Nothing to do with income, will power, social acceptance?
Because since the 70’s all we heard was fat is bad, it causes heart attacks etc so there was a massive shift from fat to carb based meals. At exactly the same time been a massive rise in obesity so there is a correlation and I believe a causation ...
And why ?
Because science shows carbs do fill an hunger gap in the short term but quickly afterwards you become hungry again, whereas fat has a much greater satiety levels and now I never snack between meals as never hungry !
Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could
Oh, let's be a bit careful with this thread. There is a risk of it becoming somewhat robust or abusive, which doesn't help.
Oh, let's be a bit careful with this thread. There is a risk of it becoming somewhat robust or abusive, which doesn't help.
Because since the 70’s all we heard was fat is bad, it causes heart attacks etc so there was a massive shift from fat to carb based meals. At exactly the same time been a massive rise in obesity so there is a correlation and I believe a causation ...
And why ?
Because science shows carbs do fill an hunger gap in the short term but quickly afterwards you become hungry again, whereas fat has a much greater satiety levels and now I never snack between meals as never hungry !
Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could
So if there was a large drop in sugar/carb intake, then naturally this trend would reverse.
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2015/11/carbohydrate-sugar-and-obesity-in.html
...and what happens to excess protein ? Becomes carbs
Because since the 70’s all we heard was fat is bad, it causes heart attacks etc so there was a massive shift from fat to carb based meals. At exactly the same time been a massive rise in obesity so there is a correlation and I believe a causation ...
And why ?
Because science shows carbs do fill an hunger gap in the short term but quickly afterwards you become hungry again, whereas fat has a much greater satiety levels and now I never snack between meals as never hungry !
Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could
So if there was a large drop in sugar/carb intake, then naturally this trend would reverse.
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2015/11/carbohydrate-sugar-and-obesity-in.html
Interesting read that one .... as it looks purely at sugar intake ... I would try and find similar ones for the three macro nutrients ... I suspect you may find protein intake has gone up and what happens to excess protein ? Becomes carbs
Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could
Meanwhile air pollution levels are associated with diabetes incidence. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpla/article/PIIS2542-5196(18)30140-2/fulltext
Meanwhile air pollution levels are associated with diabetes incidence. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpla/article/PIIS2542-5196(18)30140-2/fulltext
Is that not a correlation though and not causation ? Also likely to be the most polluted places are in inner cities where food quality is much lower. Study was based in the US and lots of inner cities are food deserts
Meanwhile air pollution levels are associated with diabetes incidence. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpla/article/PIIS2542-5196(18)30140-2/fulltext
Is that not a correlation though and not causation ? Also likely to be the most polluted places are in inner cities where food quality is much lower. Study was based in the US and lots of inner cities are food deserts
This is no different to claiming a correlation between carb intake and obesity (which I already pointed out doesn’t hold since carb intake has been dropping for nearly 20 years in the US).
Why is your (non existent) correlation better than mine?
Of course, this is where it gets complicated. The food industry loves all the conflicting advice, of course, those are product opportunities. Low fat becomes low carb, and have you tried our range of gluten-free drinks, and palaeo bars (it's important to keep up those energy levels when chasing a mammoth). They love food weirding. They're not out to sell broccoli (unless it's individually packaged, chocolate dipped, deep-fried Broccoli Bitez™) and that our relationship with food is broke. There's an entire industry that actively doesn't want you going home to chop up some veg and throw it in a pan.
Spot on Ian on all that and been an explosion of Keto and paleo processed stuff the past few years. But the beauty is I can get a piece of rib eye, flash fry it and cover in butter far quicker than cooking any of that.
Regardless of low carb or fat surely the mantra is real food, though I argue that stuff like wheat is not real as has to be highly processed for an human to eat
Spot on Ian on all that and been an explosion of Keto and paleo processed stuff the past few years. But the beauty is I can get a piece of rib eye, flash fry it and cover in butter far quicker than cooking any of that.
Regardless of low carb or fat surely the mantra is real food, though I argue that stuff like wheat is not real as has to be highly processed for an human to eat
For wheat, you just grind it up?
So the question I ask myself is there anything I actually miss by not eating a lot of carbs - honestly nope
Do I believe that low carb harms my body - an emphatic no
Since I started my bloods are excellent when last measured, I do the same exercise I used to and actually calorie intake increased but lost weight ...
Spot on Ian on all that and been an explosion of Keto and paleo processed stuff the past few years. But the beauty is I can get a piece of rib eye, flash fry it and cover in butter far quicker than cooking any of that.
Regardless of low carb or fat surely the mantra is real food, though I argue that stuff like wheat is not real as has to be highly processed for an human to eat
For wheat, you just grind it up?
Yes but then you have to take it, add other ingredients to make bread whatever ... with carrots or meat you don’t need to do that, even eggs can be eaten raw and certainly fish ....
Spot on Ian on all that and been an explosion of Keto and paleo processed stuff the past few years. But the beauty is I can get a piece of rib eye, flash fry it and cover in butter far quicker than cooking any of that.
Regardless of low carb or fat surely the mantra is real food, though I argue that stuff like wheat is not real as has to be highly processed for an human to eat
For wheat, you just grind it up?
Yes but then you have to take it, add other ingredients to make bread whatever ... with carrots or meat you don’t need to do that, even eggs can be eaten raw and certainly fish ....
Bread is just ground-up wheat, water, salt, and yeast. I wouldn't say that is highly processed.
So the question I ask myself is there anything I actually miss by not eating a lot of carbs - honestly nope
Do I believe that low carb harms my body - an emphatic no
Since I started my bloods are excellent when last measured, I do the same exercise I used to and actually calorie intake increased but lost weight ...
That is impossible. Scientifically impossible.
Spot on Ian on all that and been an explosion of Keto and paleo processed stuff the past few years. But the beauty is I can get a piece of rib eye, flash fry it and cover in butter far quicker than cooking any of that.
Regardless of low carb or fat surely the mantra is real food, though I argue that stuff like wheat is not real as has to be highly processed for an human to eat
For wheat, you just grind it up?
Yes but then you have to take it, add other ingredients to make bread whatever ... with carrots or meat you don’t need to do that, even eggs can be eaten raw and certainly fish ....
Bread is just ground-up wheat, water, salt, and yeast. I wouldn't say that is highly processed.
I would as you can not simply get yeast
Read a piece yesterday about everyone now assuming the age of cooking at home is over ... that is a ‘recipe’ for future health disasters
Spot on Ian on all that and been an explosion of Keto and paleo processed stuff the past few years. But the beauty is I can get a piece of rib eye, flash fry it and cover in butter far quicker than cooking any of that.
Regardless of low carb or fat surely the mantra is real food, though I argue that stuff like wheat is not real as has to be highly processed for an human to eat
For wheat, you just grind it up?
Yes but then you have to take it, add other ingredients to make bread whatever ... with carrots or meat you don’t need to do that, even eggs can be eaten raw and certainly fish ....
Bread is just ground-up wheat, water, salt, and yeast. I wouldn't say that is highly processed.
I would as you can not simply get yeast
Sourdough, anyone?
Read a piece yesterday about everyone now assuming the age of cooking at home is over ... that is a ‘recipe’ for future health disasters
sales of kitchens are up too...
Read a piece yesterday about everyone now assuming the age of cooking at home is over ... that is a ‘recipe’ for future health disasters
To be fair, kitchens can be bought to look at rather than to use,
Possible and can count pasta as that but when above we spoke about dense rich foods wheat is one of these as it is pure carbs of which fibre is a carb remeber.
CAKE keeps for weeks, biscuits even longer.
Then there's faddism. I'm not sure when it became normal for kids to 'not to eat' things. But now every parent I know regales me the list of things their children have decided not to eat, or they've gone gluten-free, or some other food-related weirdness. Certainly, when I grew up my mother was happy for me to choose not to eat something provided I didn't mind going hungry because I wasn't getting anything else.
Then there's faddism. I'm not sure when it became normal for kids to 'not to eat' things. But now every parent I know regales me the list of things their children have decided not to eat, or they've gone gluten-free, or some other food-related weirdness. Certainly, when I grew up my mother was happy for me to choose not to eat something provided I didn't mind going hungry because I wasn't getting anything else.
The two are linked... people are weak and pass on their weaknesses to the following generation. It doesn't help that conceiving a child these days is an enterprise worth of the whole department congratulating with lavish contributions for such display of fertility... such is the achievement that the child must be treated like some kind of deity and allowed every caprice.
Meanwhile mental health issues are sky rocketing... as well as obesity
It's just a completely fucked up society
Processing increases palatability, stability and availability of of foodstuffs, especially those that are most energy-dense. It frequently increases energy density too.
CAKE keeps for weeks, biscuits even longer.Now that is news!
The first MrsC and I, who got married in July, saved the top tier of our cake for Christmas that year (there being no firstborn anywhere near being on the sceneCAKE keeps for weeks, biscuits even longer.Now that is news!
[OT] Didn't you know that, traditionally, one tier of the wedding cake was kept to celebrate the emergence of firstborn, a few moths later? ;) ;D
Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could
I think your relationship with science is distorted. I have done science for a living for as long as I can remember.
Science works by critical mass. The days of "a man and his equation" are long gone and even in those days, there were a lot of scientists supporting the views of Newton, so it's not a case of the genius Vs the mass of ignorants. Historically we always liked to attribute discoveries to one individual (occasionally 2, if we really can't split a Watson from a Crick) but discoveries were a product of critical mass, not a moment of genius.
Referring to an "indie" author is always dangerous. There is a reason why there is a "scientific community" and there are "commonly accepted views"... humans like to think it's all a conspiracy to keep us in the dark ages, but it's not.
Without critical mass there is no life saving open heart surgery, there is no Mars Rover, there is no Boeing Dreamliner, there are no solar cells or whatever you think it is an advancement in mankind.
Following the "individual" is what Trump and Putin have based their campaigns upon and it's not good for the advancement of mankind.
Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could
I think your relationship with science is distorted. I have done science for a living for as long as I can remember.
Science works by critical mass. The days of "a man and his equation" are long gone and even in those days, there were a lot of scientists supporting the views of Newton, so it's not a case of the genius Vs the mass of ignorants. Historically we always liked to attribute discoveries to one individual (occasionally 2, if we really can't split a Watson from a Crick) but discoveries were a product of critical mass, not a moment of genius.
Referring to an "indie" author is always dangerous. There is a reason why there is a "scientific community" and there are "commonly accepted views"... humans like to think it's all a conspiracy to keep us in the dark ages, but it's not.
Without critical mass there is no life saving open heart surgery, there is no Mars Rover, there is no Boeing Dreamliner, there are no solar cells or whatever you think it is an advancement in mankind.
Following the "individual" is what Trump and Putin have based their campaigns upon and it's not good for the advancement of mankind.
Whilst the concept of critical mass is reasonable for total acceptance, there is no doubt at all that many things start with one or two people challenging the status quo. The concept that bacteria cause stomach ulcers was nonsense for many years and the researchers were laughed off the platform whenever they tried to present the data.
i remember vividly a professor of surgery reckoning that 5 patients per year would be treated with ranitidine whilst waiting for surgery in the west of scotland. It is now sold over the counter.
in hand surgery the concept of treating dupuytrens with needle aponeurotomy was laughable 12 years ago and colleagues threatened to report me to the GMC for doing it. Even 5 years ago a straw poll found only 10% of surgeons doing it. This autumn the whole audience did the procedure.
i could go on. For me the lack of a critical mass often means the idea is right but the time has not arrived.
By nature in any proper clinical study patients are self selecting as usually they have issues be it treatment for a cancer drug, this or simple hay fever remedies.
Which is why I always remain skeptical if studies etc for that very reason even if I agree with them.
By nature in any proper clinical study patients are self selecting as usually they have issues be it treatment for a cancer drug, this or simple hay fever remedies.
Which is why I always remain skeptical if studies etc for that very reason even if I agree with them.
On what basis might you agree with one?
NHS approach to T2D based on Newcastle Uni research - not keto though
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46363869 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46363869)
NHS approach to T2D based on Newcastle Uni research - not keto though
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46363869 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46363869)
It sounds disgusting. Surely conformance will be an issue?
Intermittent fasting would be less unpleasant!
We were discussing this in the kitchen at work yesterday because my boss is doing something similar as part of a weight loss program. He's not dramatically overweight, so he's just doing the breakfast and lunch and then eating a regular evening meal. He actually likes the shakes he's got. Another colleague said she lost several stone doing the full on 3 shakes a day and nothing else program for 3 months to lose weight for her wedding. I guess compliance depends on how much you want to lose weight.
Personally, I would find it easier to have a "meal replacement" that leaves me feeling fullish than simply fast. It's a different way of thinking about things.
NHS approach to T2D based on Newcastle Uni research - not keto though
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46363869 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46363869)
It sounds disgusting. Surely conformance will be an issue?
Intermittent fasting would be less unpleasant!
I'm not sure what you're saying, but type 2 diabetes had long been known to respond to dietary interventions and weight loss.
I'm not sure what you're saying, but type 2 diabetes had long been known to respond to dietary interventions and weight loss.
so why is it dealt with by insulin and often called a regressive disease as if no cure ?
Controversial but I would severely ration insulin on the NHS for T2D, there is no medical reason for it at all.
I'm not sure what you're saying, but type 2 diabetes had long been known to respond to dietary interventions and weight loss.
so why is it dealt with by insulin and often called a regressive disease as if no cure ?
Controversial but I would severely ration insulin on the NHS for T2D, there is no medical reason for it at all.
Frankly, if someone is as obese as some patients are, a ‘starvation’ diet may be just whatis requiredthe doctor ordered - for their own good.
I'm not sure what you're saying, but type 2 diabetes had long been known to respond to dietary interventions and weight loss.
so why is it dealt with by insulin and often called a regressive disease as if no cure ?
Controversial but I would severely ration insulin on the NHS for T2D, there is no medical reason for it at all.
I think you are confusing type 1 and type 2 diabetes.
Many people, faced with a lifestyle change, will opt for a pill. As said though, that's just creating a larger (and more expensive) problem in the future.
I'm not sure what you're saying, but type 2 diabetes had long been known to respond to dietary interventions and weight loss.
so why is it dealt with by insulin and often called a regressive disease as if no cure ?
Controversial but I would severely ration insulin on the NHS for T2D, there is no medical reason for it at all.
I think you are confusing type 1 and type 2 diabetes.
Many people, faced with a lifestyle change, will opt for a pill. As said though, that's just creating a larger (and more expensive) problem in the future.
nope I am not, T1 is clearly a need for insulin, on a trip in flanders I shared with an ex pro from the Type 1 team in the states and he had one of those monitors. after speaking to him at length and what he eat I saw the impact that just a pint of beer would do ...
for Type 2 it is not just lifestyle at all, thats a cop out reason and again I refer you to Robert Lustig as he very well explains how calling those T2 sloth, gluttons, greedy etc is so wrong.
By nature in any proper clinical study patients are self selecting as usually they have issues be it treatment for a cancer drug, this or simple hay fever remedies.
Which is why I always remain skeptical if studies etc for that very reason even if I agree with them.
Aside, there's a chap at my work who talks about little but the Keto diet he's on. When asked why he's doing it as it's clearly not to lose weight (he's small in height and waist), he says that it's for health. We highlighted that perhaps getting more than 3 hours sleep a night (his current average) and doing some exercise (he does none and drives <1 mile to work) or perhaps cut the caffeine (around 7 or 8 cups of coffee a day) might be of more benefit. He prefers the Keto diet.
Can these things not come with "don't be that guy" warnings?
Honestly, we can demonize any single foodstuff (be it fat or sugar), it doesn't address the core issue: we eat too much and do too little. That's our developed world lifestyle writ large. The solution is as obvious as the problem. Yes, it's easier to blame sugar or whatever else. And I'm sure it's not entirely innocent, but it's part of the bigger problem.[My bold]
But it in that it's not simple. Of course people like to eat and drink, of course people don't like to exhaust themselves, of course people don't like to be hungry. But we need significant interventions. The cost is otherwise going to be enormous both financially and in quality of life for those affected. Frankly, shit like a small tax on sugar isn't going to do it, nor is letting the food industry water down every proposal.
Honestly, we can demonize any single foodstuff (be it fat or sugar), it doesn't address the core issue: we eat too much and do too little. That's our developed world lifestyle writ large. The solution is as obvious as the problem. Yes, it's easier to blame sugar or whatever else. And I'm sure it's not entirely innocent, but it's part of the bigger problem.[My bold]
But it in that it's not simple. Of course people like to eat and drink, of course people don't like to exhaust themselves, of course people don't like to be hungry. But we need significant interventions. The cost is otherwise going to be enormous both financially and in quality of life for those affected. Frankly, shit like a small tax on sugar isn't going to do it, nor is letting the food industry water down every proposal.
I do agree with all the above.
But just as the NHS sometimes deliberately prescribes "odd" diets for those with specific conditions, or allergies, there are some who for various reasons just CANNOT stick to this idyllic balanced diet, in sensible qualities. Humans are all different, and some have cycologikal problems, instead of / as well as physical ailments.
FOR EXAMPLE; if their main weakness is eating sugary snacks in-between their lovely balanced meals, then cutting those out and subbing in high-fat snacks MIGHT WELL work for them.
[In my experience, a LOT of people fall into the above example category.]
Yes it was which is why the only papers worth quoting are double blinded RCT ones and simply in food science they can not be done
A question Ian in your mind what is a ‘balanced diet’ some suggest as much as 60% carbs. My view would be 40/40/20 carbs/fat/protein but some class that as low carb high fat !
.......... cycologikal problems..........
Just for reference...
A question Ian in your mind what is a ‘balanced diet’ some suggest as much as 60% carbs. My view would be 40/40/20 carbs/fat/protein but some class that as low carb high fat !
The brilliance of a balanced diet is that I don't have to care what the composition of what I eat is. I care that it tastes good. I take care that I cook things that are wholesome, unprocessed, and include a lot of fruit and veg. Beyond that I aim to cook things that'll I enjoy eating. Everything else then, I find, takes care of itself.
Tonight I'll have a curry, a pilau of rice, broccoli (because it's loitering suspiciously in the bottom of the fridge and I suspect close to doom), and some peas from the freezer. I'll probably have some ready-made starters (because I'm too lazy to cook samosas). There will be beer because it's Friday and it wouldn't be otherwise.
And not it's not all down to diet. People really need to exercise. I swim every day, tomorrow we'll probably do a 10-mile hike. And then have some more beer. And probably a pizza.
A question Ian in your mind what is a ‘balanced diet’ some suggest as much as 60% carbs. My view would be 40/40/20 carbs/fat/protein but some class that as low carb high fat !
The brilliance of a balanced diet is that I don't have to care what the composition of what I eat is. I care that it tastes good. I take care that I cook things that are wholesome, unprocessed, and include a lot of fruit and veg. Beyond that I aim to cook things that'll I enjoy eating. Everything else then, I find, takes care of itself.
Tonight I'll have a curry, a pilau of rice, broccoli (because it's loitering suspiciously in the bottom of the fridge and I suspect close to doom), and some peas from the freezer. I'll probably have some ready-made starters (because I'm too lazy to cook samosas). There will be beer because it's Friday and it wouldn't be otherwise.
And not it's not all down to diet. People really need to exercise. I swim every day, tomorrow we'll probably do a 10-mile hike. And then have some more beer. And probably a pizza.
My bold. This.
Just for reference...
Coincidentally, my food intake today included a pie.
But seriously, I don't think one's personal dietary charts (not that I have such a thing) contribute anything much to a discussion. A varied diet, avoiding any excessive consumption of known poisons, seems best to me.
Hic!
Just for reference...
Coincidentally, my food intake today included a pie.
But seriously, I don't think one's personal dietary charts (not that I have such a thing) contribute anything much to a discussion. A varied diet, avoiding any excessive consumption of known poisons, seems best to me.
Hic!
now again you hit on something, key to the whole discussion, what is excessive consumption of known poisons, we can all agree sugar is one of them and then we all disagree on others ....
Are you saying that sugar is a poison?
Are you saying that sugar is a poison?
He's asserting that we all agree it is.
Are you saying that sugar is a poison?
He's asserting that we all agree it is.
Are you saying that sugar is a poison?
He's asserting that we all agree it is.
course not a poison as much but is it good for us at all ? we don't need it to live, too much of it causes Diabetes and it is just a sweetener, thats all.
A question Ian in your mind what is a ‘balanced diet’ some suggest as much as 60% carbs. My view would be 40/40/20 carbs/fat/protein but some class that as low carb high fat !
The brilliance of a balanced diet is that I don't have to care what the composition of what I eat is. I care that it tastes good. I take care that I cook things that are wholesome, unprocessed, and include a lot of fruit and veg. Beyond that I aim to cook things that'll I enjoy eating. Everything else then, I find, takes care of itself.
Tonight I'll have a curry, a pilau of rice, broccoli (because it's loitering suspiciously in the bottom of the fridge and I suspect close to doom), and some peas from the freezer. I'll probably have some ready-made starters (because I'm too lazy to cook samosas). There will be beer because it's Friday and it wouldn't be otherwise.
And not it's not all down to diet. People really need to exercise. I swim every day, tomorrow we'll probably do a 10-mile hike. And then have some more beer. And probably a pizza.
My bold. This.
People should be as active as possible but not all can exercise. I can't.
I try to limit my ingestion of 'naughty' stuff and mostly don't eat between meals. I am not spherical.
I dont even though where to begin with the above, you're either misinformed, stupid, trolling or all of the above - a few points:-
I dont even though where to begin with the above, you're either misinformed, stupid, trolling or all of the above - a few points:-
none of the above, I have very rarely sugar in any form for 2 and half years and in that time the only time off work sick has been for my depression.
Now On Sunday, I will get up and do 100 mile fasted ride, hopefully well under 6 hours, I have said many times this is N=1 but you are misinformed about needing to any form of sugar, I am sure you are fully aware we create enough glucose from protein for ourselves to fuel what our body needs ?
Oh in that time I lost 15kg.
I dont even though where to begin with the above, you're either misinformed, stupid, trolling or all of the above - a few points:-
none of the above, I have very rarely sugar in any form for 2 and half years and in that time the only time off work sick has been for my depression.
Now On Sunday, I will get up and do 100 mile fasted ride, hopefully well under 6 hours, I have said many times this is N=1 but you are misinformed about needing to any form of sugar, I am sure you are fully aware we create enough glucose from protein for ourselves to fuel what our body needs ?
Oh in that time I lost 15kg.
It has been shown that diet and mood are linked.
Weight loss means feck all when it comes to health. I could have cancer and lose 15kg, I could have a sincere and honest drug habit and lose 15kg, this does not mean I, or my diet is healthy. Take a blood test and post your results if you are so sure.
I'm well aware that protein can be broken down in the liver to make glucose, I'm also aware of the increase in IGF-1 levels that come from an increase in protein intake, which is why my daily calories as a % are around 12% which are all plant based. If you or anyone else thinks this is too low then I revert you to the WHO guidelines on protein intake.
The sub 6 hour century is anecdotal and has no point.
I dont even though where to begin with the above, you're either misinformed, stupid, trolling or all of the above - a few points:-
none of the above, I have very rarely sugar in any form for 2 and half years and in that time the only time off work sick has been for my depression.
Now On Sunday, I will get up and do 100 mile fasted ride, hopefully well under 6 hours, I have said many times this is N=1 but you are misinformed about needing to any form of sugar, I am sure you are fully aware we create enough glucose from protein for ourselves to fuel what our body needs ?
Oh in that time I lost 15kg.
It has been shown that diet and mood are linked.
Weight loss means feck all when it comes to health. I could have cancer and lose 15kg, I could have a sincere and honest drug habit and lose 15kg, this does not mean I, or my diet is healthy. Take a blood test and post your results if you are so sure.
I'm well aware that protein can be broken down in the liver to make glucose, I'm also aware of the increase in IGF-1 levels that come from an increase in protein intake, which is why my daily calories as a % are around 12% which are all plant based. If you or anyone else thinks this is too low then I revert you to the WHO guidelines on protein intake.
The sub 6 hour century is anecdotal and has no point.
I said it was N=1 !
Right these are my bloods about 6 months old now and tell me how sick I am from this
(https://i.postimg.cc/rKgDT26x/Screen-Shot-2017-12-30-at-18-07-16.png) (https://postimg.cc/rKgDT26x)
as for any vegan debate that is a pointless debate as I know a few keto vegans who show the same benefits as I in bloods etc
I’m tempted to watch as LMT - ‘the vegan apologist’ - and IanRobo - ‘the keto man’ - slug it out:)
No offense intended.
However, you both tend to be selective in you reading of the science and i think it’s both more complex and simpler than that.
First, let me be clear that my comment about the ‘lifestyle epidemic’ was not calling anyone a glutton or sloth etc. Lifestyle is not just a choice we make, but a consequence of many factors including our social milieu, how we are impacted by advertising and probably our genetics and childhood experiences. However, it’s clear that, as Ian says, as a society we eat too much and move too little.
If we want to stem the epidemic we need to find ways to move the dial on a much wider basis. Keto is neither affordable or sustainable (including environmentally) for our global population. It’s also probably entirely unnecessary for population health. We do need to address the commercial factors at play - freedom to make ‘good choices’ in our environment is somewhat illusory for many - but there are many other factors too.
I don’t have the answer or magic bullet, but I really don’t think the medical profession is part of a conspiracy to make or keep people ill. I do think that commercial businesses are primarily about making money now and every other consideration is subject to that.
Disclosure - my father died of vascular dementia and heart disease alongside poorly controlled T2D after enjoying the good life for many years. He was 8 years younger than his father at death, albeit 82, and dipped under 100kgs in his last 2 or 3 weeks.
Right these are my bloods about 6 months old now and tell me how sick I am from this
(https://i.postimg.cc/rKgDT26x/Screen-Shot-2017-12-30-at-18-07-16.png) (https://postimg.cc/rKgDT26x)
as for any vegan debate that is a pointless debate as I know a few keto vegans who show the same benefits as I in bloods etc
Good article in the guardian about the modern-day obsession with boosting protein intake (particularly the use of protein powders). My younger stepkids use the stuff; they hardly exercise and eat substantial amounts of meat. Ridiculous, they don't need additional protein. They are candidates for rabbit starvation.
I agree with you about the simplicity of supermarket shopping (when on a clear and simple diet), Chris.
I'm much, much better for reducing my refined carbs. Previous (at 'home') diet included a lot of pasta (gluten-free, so worse than standard), rice and potatoes.
I don't eat any pasta now. Rice noodles in small quantities per meal (maybe 1/4 by volume of a meal). Rice ditto. Seldom any potatoes. Some muesli for breakfast.
I don't need my omeprazole anymore. If I stick to the 'reduced' carb diet, then I don't get heartburn. I'm slimmer.
Healthy protein intake is a challenge, as I'm a cheese addict. I love good cheese. Have to consciously make myself shop for fish and cook it or I'd just eat cheese for protein (along with eggs, seeds and pulses).
Should come with a health warning, whey protein has been shown to be as insulinogenic as glucose.
If you read the whole article, it suggests that the elderly and frail (IIRC it said 80s+) do sometimes suffer lack of protein, even on a Western diet, cos they need more g per kg bodyweight. Though it didn't give a figure.
Good article in the guardian about the modern-day obsession with boosting protein intake (particularly the use of protein powders). My younger stepkids use the stuff; they hardly exercise and eat substantial amounts of meat. Ridiculous, they don't need additional protein. They are candidates for rabbit starvation.
I agree with you about the simplicity of supermarket shopping (when on a clear and simple diet), Chris.
I'm much, much better for reducing my refined carbs. Previous (at 'home') diet included a lot of pasta (gluten-free, so worse than standard), rice and potatoes.
I don't eat any pasta now. Rice noodles in small quantities per meal (maybe 1/4 by volume of a meal). Rice ditto. Seldom any potatoes. Some muesli for breakfast.
I don't need my omeprazole anymore. If I stick to the 'reduced' carb diet, then I don't get heartburn. I'm slimmer.
Healthy protein intake is a challenge, as I'm a cheese addict. I love good cheese. Have to consciously make myself shop for fish and cook it or I'd just eat cheese for protein (along with eggs, seeds and pulses).
Should come with a health warning, whey protein has been shown to be as insulinogenic as glucose.
Slicing must have been a good way to make your ration last longer. Doesn't alter the consistency in the same way as squashing though.
Good article in the guardian about the modern-day obsession with boosting protein intake (particularly the use of protein powders). My younger stepkids use the stuff; they hardly exercise and eat substantial amounts of meat. Ridiculous, they don't need additional protein. They are candidates for rabbit starvation.
I agree with you about the simplicity of supermarket shopping (when on a clear and simple diet), Chris.
I'm much, much better for reducing my refined carbs. Previous (at 'home') diet included a lot of pasta (gluten-free, so worse than standard), rice and potatoes.
I don't eat any pasta now. Rice noodles in small quantities per meal (maybe 1/4 by volume of a meal). Rice ditto. Seldom any potatoes. Some muesli for breakfast.
I don't need my omeprazole anymore. If I stick to the 'reduced' carb diet, then I don't get heartburn. I'm slimmer.
Healthy protein intake is a challenge, as I'm a cheese addict. I love good cheese. Have to consciously make myself shop for fish and cook it or I'd just eat cheese for protein (along with eggs, seeds and pulses).
Should come with a health warning, whey protein has been shown to be as insulinogenic as glucose.
In your selective reading that is.
My parents and grandparents all lived to 80 plus, without benefit of gyms or specific diets. They, as Ian recommends, ate a balanced diet. They also, unlike me, didn’t eat or drink too much.
Good article in the guardian about the modern-day obsession with boosting protein intake (particularly the use of protein powders). My younger stepkids use the stuff; they hardly exercise and eat substantial amounts of meat. Ridiculous, they don't need additional protein. They are candidates for rabbit starvation.
I agree with you about the simplicity of supermarket shopping (when on a clear and simple diet), Chris.
I'm much, much better for reducing my refined carbs. Previous (at 'home') diet included a lot of pasta (gluten-free, so worse than standard), rice and potatoes.
I don't eat any pasta now. Rice noodles in small quantities per meal (maybe 1/4 by volume of a meal). Rice ditto. Seldom any potatoes. Some muesli for breakfast.
I don't need my omeprazole anymore. If I stick to the 'reduced' carb diet, then I don't get heartburn. I'm slimmer.
Healthy protein intake is a challenge, as I'm a cheese addict. I love good cheese. Have to consciously make myself shop for fish and cook it or I'd just eat cheese for protein (along with eggs, seeds and pulses).
Should come with a health warning, whey protein has been shown to be as insulinogenic as glucose.
In your selective reading that is.
My parents and grandparents all lived to 80 plus, without benefit of gyms or specific diets. They, as Ian recommends, ate a balanced diet. They also, unlike me, didn’t eat or drink too much.
From an agricultural perspective, whey is pig food. Mix it with grains to mush and they'll lap it up. Makes them lovely and fat. Tasty :)
We both discovered we have about double the poop volume when on carbs,
Nope, it was a bit perturbing at first.
After 7 days on Keto I’m back to regular once per day, after breakfast, nothing too dramatic.
Nope, it was a bit perturbing at first.
After 7 days on Keto I’m back to regular once per day, after breakfast, nothing too dramatic.
We both discovered we have about double the poop volume when on carbs,
I was always led to believe it is a good thing.
We both discovered we have about double the poop volume when on carbs,
I was always led to believe it is a good thing.
Not really. It's poor transit that's bad. Better the bowel is empty than jammed full of hard to shift crap. There's plenty of ways to achieve this; be active, drink plenty of water, eat loads of fibre if you feel the need, or don't eat much at all. One thing keto diets do well is make it easy to reduce down to one/two meals a day. Less input == Less output.
We both discovered we have about double the poop volume when on carbs,
I was always led to believe it is a good thing.
Not really. It's poor transit that's bad. Better the bowel is empty than jammed full of hard to shift crap. There's plenty of ways to achieve this; be active, drink plenty of water, eat loads of fibre if you feel the need, or don't eat much at all. One thing keto diets do well is make it easy to reduce down to one/two meals a day. Less input == Less output.
I had Netflix over the Christmas period and watched a few films about Paleo, which basically is Keto... the principles make sense, but I am still unconvinced that a diet packed with animal saturated fat doesn't lead to high cholesterol...
It certainly didn't work for us. We went black pudding crazy for a while, we were having a slice every morning of the organic/nitrite free/real blood you name it, but with a lot of pig fat. Two months later our cholesterol (both my wife and mine) went through the roof... my wife got up to 6.2, which is way higher that her normal.
We then stopped and cut meat altogether and things went back to normal.
Sounds like one of those conspiracies. There are a lot about.
Sounds like one of those conspiracies. There are a lot about.
No conspiracy, plenty of proper science out there to show what cholesterol actually is. The studies on what the whole thing was built on showed only some correlation but not causation if you do not fractional analysis
Well, it's a concern. My cholesterol is high too; 6.4 when last tested. A lot of it is HDL because I'm active, so that's a good thing. My serum triglycerides are very low, which is also a good thing. I've never had my LDL tested - they rarely do, the quoted LDL figure is a simple subtraction of Total - HDL. If analysed, the LDL would split into fractions according to particle size - big fluffy particles being benign, small dense particles being the bad guys. Guess what makes the small/dense concentration go up? Yes that's right, insulin-spiking carbs (and presumably, excessive protein).
Half of all cardiac-event sufferers though A&E have normal cholesterol. Surely that wouldn't be the case if total cholesterol were the whole story, as in "Low is Good, High is Bad"?
Well, it's a concern. My cholesterol is high too; 6.4 when last tested. A lot of it is HDL because I'm active, so that's a good thing. My serum triglycerides are very low, which is also a good thing. I've never had my LDL tested - they rarely do, the quoted LDL figure is a simple subtraction of Total - HDL. If analysed, the LDL would split into fractions according to particle size - big fluffy particles being benign, small dense particles being the bad guys. Guess what makes the small/dense concentration go up? Yes that's right, insulin-spiking carbs (and presumably, excessive protein).
Half of all cardiac-event sufferers though A&E have normal cholesterol. Surely that wouldn't be the case if total cholesterol were the whole story, as in "Low is Good, High is Bad"?
You'd be right, in particular animal protein, in particular beef has been shown to spike insulin as much as white bread.
That old chestnut, hours upon hours of research done by some of the best medical minds however...'correlation is not causation.'
[Quote
That old chestnut, hours upon hours of research done by some of the best medical minds however...'correlation is not causation.'
It is not .. like saying people eat more ice cream and more drownings in the summer ... correlation but causation is a third party ... the sun
In all those studies and seen plenty there is one measure never mentioned ... CRP the measurement for inflammation .
Inflammation which is made worse by higher carb diets
Remeber once science told us eating eggs was a major cause of high cholesterol ?? Now that has been totally debunked by newer science and the advice is eggs - fill your boots ... btw I eat up to 28 a week
[Quote
That old chestnut, hours upon hours of research done by some of the best medical minds however...'correlation is not causation.'
It is not .. like saying people eat more ice cream and more drownings in the summer ... correlation but causation is a third party ... the sun
In all those studies and seen plenty there is one measure never mentioned ... CRP the measurement for inflammation .
Inflammation which is made worse by higher carb diets
Remeber once science told us eating eggs was a major cause of high cholesterol ?? Now that has been totally debunked by newer science and the advice is eggs - fill your boots ... btw I eat up to 28 a week
Ice creams and the sun.... :-\
If you are talking carbs, you need to make the distinction between refined carbs and plant based carbs, a can of coke will spike my insulin levels - a couple of bananas won't.
IIRC the FDA handed the egg industry in America it's own arse when they tried to promote eggs as a health food. The studies I have read about egg consumption, to show that eggs were healthy were biased. In that the subjects already had high cholesterol, so upping their egg intake would not have a material impact.
Well, it's a concern. My cholesterol is high too; 6.4 when last tested. A lot of it is HDL because I'm active, so that's a good thing. My serum triglycerides are very low, which is also a good thing. I've never had my LDL tested - they rarely do, the quoted LDL figure is a simple subtraction of Total - HDL. If analysed, the LDL would split into fractions according to particle size - big fluffy particles being benign, small dense particles being the bad guys. Guess what makes the small/dense concentration go up? Yes that's right, insulin-spiking carbs (and presumably, excessive protein).
Half of all cardiac-event sufferers though A&E have normal cholesterol. Surely that wouldn't be the case if total cholesterol were the whole story, as in "Low is Good, High is Bad"?
You'd be right, in particular animal protein, in particular beef has been shown to spike insulin as much as white bread.
Any facts to back it up ? And excess would because as you know excess protein converts to carbs and causes blood sugar spike this insulin spike
[Quote
That old chestnut, hours upon hours of research done by some of the best medical minds however...'correlation is not causation.'
It is not .. like saying people eat more ice cream and more drownings in the summer ... correlation but causation is a third party ... the sun
In all those studies and seen plenty there is one measure never mentioned ... CRP the measurement for inflammation .
Inflammation which is made worse by higher carb diets
Remeber once science told us eating eggs was a major cause of high cholesterol ?? Now that has been totally debunked by newer science and the advice is eggs - fill your boots ... btw I eat up to 28 a week
Ice creams and the sun.... :-\
If you are talking carbs, you need to make the distinction between refined carbs and plant based carbs, a can of coke will spike my insulin levels - a couple of bananas won't.
IIRC the FDA handed the egg industry in America it's own arse when they tried to promote eggs as a health food. The studies I have read about egg consumption, to show that eggs were healthy were biased. In that the subjects already had high cholesterol, so upping their egg intake would not have a material impact.
Seriously quoting the FDA one of the most corrupt US govt bodies ??
As for carbs they are all processed through the same metabolic pathway the only difference is real carbs in say fruit and veg have fibre with them to slow down this.
On eggs there is NO metabolic pathway that turns their cholesterol into ours .. if there is please share it.
[OT but...]
Use them for microwaving vegetables. Very good for keto-friendly brassicas...
[Quote
That old chestnut, hours upon hours of research done by some of the best medical minds however...'correlation is not causation.'
It is not .. like saying people eat more ice cream and more drownings in the summer ... correlation but causation is a third party ... the sun
In all those studies and seen plenty there is one measure never mentioned ... CRP the measurement for inflammation .
Inflammation which is made worse by higher carb diets
Remeber once science told us eating eggs was a major cause of high cholesterol ?? Now that has been totally debunked by newer science and the advice is eggs - fill your boots ... btw I eat up to 28 a week
Ice creams and the sun.... :-\
If you are talking carbs, you need to make the distinction between refined carbs and plant based carbs, a can of coke will spike my insulin levels - a couple of bananas won't.
IIRC the FDA handed the egg industry in America it's own arse when they tried to promote eggs as a health food. The studies I have read about egg consumption, to show that eggs were healthy were biased. In that the subjects already had high cholesterol, so upping their egg intake would not have a material impact.
Seriously quoting the FDA one of the most corrupt US govt bodies ??
As for carbs they are all processed through the same metabolic pathway the only difference is real carbs in say fruit and veg have fibre with them to slow down this.
On eggs there is NO metabolic pathway that turns their cholesterol into ours .. if there is please share it.
You need to cite regarding the eggs and the FDA.
And if you know this about carbs and fibre then why not make this distintion before hand or have you got an agenda?
Sounds like one of those conspiracies. There are a lot about.Got any evidence of that?
The lizard people told me.Sounds like one of those conspiracies. There are a lot about.Got any evidence of that?
I'm now three months into another go at Keto, and this time sticking to it much better.
Oh, and I found having double the recommended protein per day didn’t affect my ketosis either - I eat around 150-200g protein per day.
Cheese, yum!
The app is easy to use - it's more stripped back than MFP and I'd like to have the ability to save foods by meal as you can do with MFP but OTOH when you go via your web browser it provides a *lot* more detailed information.You can create 'recipes'. Go to web browser, select food tab, click + Add Recipe.
The app is easy to use - it's more stripped back than MFP and I'd like to have the ability to save foods by meal as you can do with MFP but OTOH when you go via your web browser it provides a *lot* more detailed information.You can create 'recipes'. Go to web browser, select food tab, click + Add Recipe.
The added recipe then appears as an item when you +Food.
Oh, and I found having double the recommended protein per day didn’t affect my ketosis either - I eat around 150-200g protein per day.
Cheese, yum!
my habit of eating spoonfuls of peanut butter out of the jar and nibbling on hunks of cheese.Blimey, I'm almost keto and I didn't know it! If you ignore bread, jam, chocolate etc...
I'm increasingly looking at trying this...partly weightloss, but also that there's some suggestions that it may help people with chronic migraines.DietDoctor.com is a very good place to start.
Is there any convenient guides/websites for meal plans?
I'm increasingly looking at trying this...partly weightloss, but also that there's some suggestions that it may help people with chronic migraines.DietDoctor.com is a very good place to start.
Is there any convenient guides/websites for meal plans?
So, one negative aspect is that I will soon need to spend money on replacing my wardrobe. My favourite trousers are now decidedly too baggy and the rest are stating to lo look too loose as well.
Mind you, I'm not complaining :D.
(Although replacing my motorcycle jeans will hurt....they're rather expensive).
I've been diagnosed with hip dysplasia and wonky femurs (in rare orientations) and my mobility is terrible. The book my surgeon asked me to read says that for every Kg weight loss it saves 6Kg of forces off the hip biomechanic bits. The sensible hip dysplasia communities seem to suggest the more weight you can lose the better.
I am not overweight but at ~63-65Kg depending on scales my BMI is bang on 25, I'm heavier than I've ever been (poor mobility does that) and I reckon I could lose 2 stone (13ishKg) and still be a healthy for me weight. I've been trying cutting down portions but struggling with being hungry - I think I did lose 1/2 a stone in 6 months like that which was a tad slow.
I'm not going full-blown keto, but I am logging what I eat and basically 'avoiding' carbohydrates where possible. 5 days in and I do notice I am less hungry with fewer carbs. And if it helps my sodding migraines then that is also a bonus (altho had a proper optical one today).
Had my blood work done and got called back into the doctors and not surprisingly my cholestorol is a bit high. The ratio is still very good, but we both agreed that it wouldn't hurt bringing it down. I did lean heavily on the bacon in the December, so more avocado and mackerel and less bacon.
Thanks Regulator, I am not sure I'd feel able to ask my GP for Our Path as I probably don't "need" it either on paper or in practice. I did a bit of research of my own, and basically spreadsheeted my food to see what it had in terms of calories, carbs, protein and fat amounts so I got an idea of what I could eat and in what quantities.Congratulations.
I've got very limited cooking ability so my recent diet has been a bit repetitive. On 1st December I started doing lower carb and tracking then full-Keto. I'm not 100% sure how long I've been in Ketosis (I'm not measuring tbh) but I am probably in ketosis now. It's been a bit boring, but also useful to look foods up and compare them (good old fashioned spreadsheets). Getting high enough fats and low enough protein can be difficult. Eggs and mushrooms are my new best friends along with avocados in the microsecond they're not too hard or post-ripe! I'm largely lactose intolerant but can manage certain cheese (the lowest carbs as sugars ones) and lactofree milk/cream have lower carbs than the regular ones.
I reckon I weighed about 10.5 stone (67 Kg) at my heaviest last summer. As our home scales are shit (and haven't yet been replaced as planned) I think I've lost between 5 and 7Kg since 21st November which I'm happy with. I've definitely lost 3Kg between 22nd Dec and 6th Jan cos I used stepdad's allegedly calibrated aviation medical examiner's scales on both those dates...
Specialist hip physio was impressed with my weight loss but stressed he didn't want me to lose too much so I'll call it at 8.5 stone (about 54Kg) and relax the keto to see if I can maintain that weight on a lower carb diet but still allowed 'nice things' from time to time.
What doing this has taught me is that it can be done, I am less hungry on lower carbs and I know what lower-carb foods are easy to access and eat.
Having to cheat on a lifestyle shows that in the long term its unsustainable.
Having to cheat on a lifestyle shows that in the long term its unsustainable.
Having to cheat on a lifestyle shows that in the long term its unsustainable.
Ok, call it an indulgence, then. Don't tell me you never occasionally eat stuff that you know isn't good for you?.
Look at it like booze. It's bad for you and it can ruin your next day, but you still drink it, right?
Not at all. It shows that you can keep to it but also not inconvenience friends when eating with them without any significantly negative effects. We are happy to go back to eating keto at home, but have no problems when on holiday or with friends eating normally.
I don’t know what your problem is with keto LMT. I am a lifelong fattie but this way of eating suits me and helped me to shed 20kg last year - and keep it off. Would you rather I was obese but at least eating pasta, potatoes and bread regularly?
And the difference is?
That's not my point, sure from time to time I eat junk food, but this is within my diet and lifestyle.
But if you are keto than you're keto, so why cheat with upping your carb intake?
Having to cheat on a lifestyle shows that in the long term its unsustainable.
Having to cheat on a lifestyle shows that in the long term its unsustainable.
You may be right. Couldn't get through veganuary without a steak day most weeks;)
I tend to think of myself as omnivorous, and I do occasionally eat omnivores.
Sundays don't count as part of Lent in some traditions.Having to cheat on a lifestyle shows that in the long term its unsustainable.
You may be right. Couldn't get through veganuary without a steak day most weeks;)
And the difference is?
That's not my point, sure from time to time I eat junk food, but this is within my diet and lifestyle.But if you are keto than you're keto, so why cheat with upping your carb intake?
Because it's nice to have a croissant, htodog, milkshake, slice of pizza, etc occasionally...or even just some rice.
Sometimes it's just simply more convenient.
We had a lunch time screening yesterday, so the office provided pizza. Do I grab a slice of pizza or do I sit hungry for the next 2 hours?.
Ok, just a troll, I get it. If you dislike keto so much, why are you posting here?
Yep, just a troll - suggesting I should be a drug addict to lose the weight rather than eating a healthy diet of fresh food.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/mar/06/low-carb-diet-may-reverse-age-related-brain-deterioration-study-finds
I wrote yesterday that my blood test results all showed excellent health, including cholesterol.Yep, just a troll - suggesting I should be a drug addict to lose the weight rather than eating a healthy diet of fresh food.
I don't recall suggesting you should be a drug addict.
What I do recall is addressing the issue where by a lot of people nowadays seem to associate weight loss as the number one priority when it comes to a certain lifestyle. This is incorrect, it should be health, i.e someone with a class a drug habit could lose a lot of weight but won't necessarily be healthy.
Ok, just a troll, I get it. If you dislike keto so much, why are you posting here?
In a nutshell, because I can.
If you wish to label me a troll then fine - I won't lose any sleep over it.
My point still stands though. Why increase a macro which, if you are getting all you need from a lifestyle, you should not be increasing.
And regarding the pizza, I was asking an honest question. Folks on here and elsewhere extol the virtues of a Keto diet, one of these being that you are never hungry or only need to eat one meal a day - yet you could not go 2 hours without food?
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/mar/06/low-carb-diet-may-reverse-age-related-brain-deterioration-study-finds
I wrote yesterday that my blood test results all showed excellent health, including cholesterol.Yep, just a troll - suggesting I should be a drug addict to lose the weight rather than eating a healthy diet of fresh food.
I don't recall suggesting you should be a drug addict.
What I do recall is addressing the issue where by a lot of people nowadays seem to associate weight loss as the number one priority when it comes to a certain lifestyle. This is incorrect, it should be health, i.e someone with a class a drug habit could lose a lot of weight but won't necessarily be healthy.
I lost 20kg last year through changing what I ate, not dieting. Because I am not hungry I can eat less and lose weight the correct way, naturally without counting anything. I am keeping that weight off.
I eat fresh meat (organic, highest animal welfare option) and fresh vegetables. I buy locally-sourced milk and eggs. I do not buy prepackaged biscuits or cake nonsense but make my own when I want them - from fresh ingredients.
I drink tea or tap water, nothing else.
Tell me why eating pasta, potatoes and bread would be a good option for me? Do you really think I should do that
Is that the right choice for me? My mother is type 2 diabetic, is it really wise for me to switch from ketone burning to glycogen? Is it better for me to be constantly hungry and snacking and 20kg more? Really?
I wrote yesterday that my blood test results all showed excellent health, including cholesterol.Yep, just a troll - suggesting I should be a drug addict to lose the weight rather than eating a healthy diet of fresh food.
I don't recall suggesting you should be a drug addict.
What I do recall is addressing the issue where by a lot of people nowadays seem to associate weight loss as the number one priority when it comes to a certain lifestyle. This is incorrect, it should be health, i.e someone with a class a drug habit could lose a lot of weight but won't necessarily be healthy.
I lost 20kg last year through changing what I ate, not dieting. Because I am not hungry I can eat less and lose weight the correct way, naturally without counting anything. I am keeping that weight off.
I eat fresh meat (organic, highest animal welfare option) and fresh vegetables. I buy locally-sourced milk and eggs. I do not buy prepackaged biscuits or cake nonsense but make my own when I want them - from fresh ingredients.
I drink tea or tap water, nothing else.
Tell me why eating pasta, potatoes and bread would be a good option for me? Do you really think I should do that
Is that the right choice for me? My mother is type 2 diabetic, is it really wise for me to switch from ketone burning to glycogen? Is it better for me to be constantly hungry and snacking and 20kg more? Really?
It's an oxymoron about highest animal welfare option. The above reply which goes on and asks for my opinion about what you should eat tells me tht there is an underlying issue here that I don't want to get into.
I don’t know what your problem is with keto LMT.
To be clear, my original response in ‘cheating’ was a bit of a tease for LMT, as he always approaches this thread with a vegan agenda. I have no issue with his food choices, but he should be clear on where he comes from I think. Plus a bit of banter is normal in my family.
Also, I didn’t try to do veganuary and set out to invert dry January - almost completely successfully, but my daily alcohol consumption was still pitifully low.
...The most recent being people talking about Keto yet cheating on it.
something is wrongor that they
are weakI wonder what macro they are needing to increase that is missing from their lifestyle?
I know vegetarians who cheat for bacon and vegans who cheat for cheese.... does that mean thatsomething is wrongor that theyare weakI wonder what macro they are needing to increase that is missing from their lifestyle?
There's loads of people on here who actually eat keto and who find it really works for them. I kind of figure they are rather more expert about it than I am since I've never tried keto and an unlikely ever to do so - I personally don't think that keto would be a good fit for me. I reckon good luck to them, occasionally look in this thread out of curiosity and for some reason or nother don't really feel the need to tell people they are doing it 'wrong'. A bit like I don't feel the need to tell barrow-riders and the darksiders to get onto two wheels or to do it upwrong.
...The most recent being people talking about Keto yet cheating on it.
Pragmatism in pursuit of a little pleasure. How utterly awful!
I know vegetarians who cheat for bacon and vegans who cheat for cheese.... does that mean thatsomething is wrongor that theyare weakI wonder what macro they are needing to increase that is missing from their lifestyle?
There's loads of people on here who actually eat keto and who find it really works for them. I kind of figure they are rather more expert about it than I am since I've never tried keto and an unlikely ever to do so - I personally don't think that keto would be a good fit for me. I reckon good luck to them, occasionally look in this thread out of curiosity and for some reason or nother don't really feel the need to tell people they are doing it 'wrong'. A bit like I don't feel the need to tell barrow-riders and the darksiders to get onto two wheels or to do it upwrong.
That's up to you.
You either commit to a lifestyle or you don't. But (and I mean this in a general sense) extol the virtues of a diet/lifestyle and not be pulled up on it.
I know vegetarians who cheat for bacon and vegans who cheat for cheese.... does that mean thatsomething is wrongor that theyare weakI wonder what macro they are needing to increase that is missing from their lifestyle?
There's loads of people on here who actually eat keto and who find it really works for them. I kind of figure they are rather more expert about it than I am since I've never tried keto and an unlikely ever to do so - I personally don't think that keto would be a good fit for me. I reckon good luck to them, occasionally look in this thread out of curiosity and for some reason or nother don't really feel the need to tell people they are doing it 'wrong'. A bit like I don't feel the need to tell barrow-riders and the darksiders to get onto two wheels or to do it upwrong.
That's up to you.
You either commit to a lifestyle or you don't. But (and I mean this in a general sense) extol the virtues of a diet/lifestyle and not be pulled up on it.
You know, we. pr I at least, are not dioing out of some misguided religious/moral philosophy, but to improve our health and wellbeing...which, for me, it certainly has. Now, you admitted yourself to eating junk food from time to time and it's no different that when we talk about 'cheating'
No food types, groups are 'banned'. I could eat raw sugar and still be on a strict keto diet...I just couldn't eat very much of it.
Misguided religeous/moral philosophy? Is that you having a pop at Veganism?
Misguided religeous/moral philosophy? Is that you having a pop at Veganism? Laughable if it is as this is not what Veganism is about at all. All it is, is extending the social contract that humans partake in to other non humans and sentient beings.
And the junk food thing I've rebutted a few posts ago.
Misguided religeous/moral philosophy? Is that you having a pop at Veganism? Laughable if it is as this is not what Veganism is about at all. All it is, is extending the social contract that humans partake in to other non humans and sentient beings.
And the junk food thing I've rebutted a few posts ago.
No, I'm having a pop at your zealousness....heck, you even capitalized veganism. Once you start trying to impose your -ism on other people, yeah, it's misguided.
I still don't get why you've chosen to shit all over what is essentially a helpful support thread.
And, no , you didn't rebutt it at all.
I think the issue with diets is that they are diets and, as such, follow a schema of proscriptions, and we introduce the concept of 'cheating' and then there are cycles of guilt and recrimination for breaking those proscriptions. It's a fundamentally toxic approach to eating and weirds our relationship with food. Most diets ultimately fail.What about cutting out nuts?
I have not 'shit' over anything as you put it. Upon Perusing this Thread I saw that people were Increasing their CHO intake Beyond what is acceptable for Keto and made a comment. If you Cannot take that - than tough.
And I did rebut your post. Me having the odd bit of Vegan junk food is not the same as yourself upping your CHO intake beyond what is acceptable if you are on the Keto lifestyle. If I cheated by consuming some animal products then by all means you can say it is the same thing.
I think the issue with diets is that they are diets and, as such, follow a schema of proscriptions, and we introduce the concept of 'cheating' and then there are cycles of guilt and recrimination for breaking those proscriptions. It's a fundamentally toxic approach to eating and weirds our relationship with food. Most diets ultimately fail.What about cutting out nuts?
I have not 'shit' over anything as you put it. Upon Perusing this Thread I saw that people were Increasing their CHO intake Beyond what is acceptable for Keto and made a comment. If you Cannot take that - than tough.
And I did rebut your post. Me having the odd bit of Vegan junk food is not the same as yourself upping your CHO intake beyond what is acceptable if you are on the Keto lifestyle. If I cheated by consuming some animal products then by all means you can say it is the same thing.
What on earth are you on about? Having an icecream or a piece of bread is not increasing the cholesterol beyond what's acceptable. Cholesterol levels only factor in if you fail to eat a balanced diet and have nothing to do with 'cheat' days.
Maybe that's just how you view it? There seem to be people here proscribing things because they will be healthier and happier.I think the issue with diets is that they are diets and, as such, follow a schema of proscriptions, and we introduce the concept of 'cheating' and then there are cycles of guilt and recrimination for breaking those proscriptions. It's a fundamentally toxic approach to eating and weirds our relationship with food. Most diets ultimately fail.What about cutting out nuts?
I don't think avoiding a product that you're allergic to is a diet. It becomes odd, of course, when you start proscribing things for peculiar reasons.
Well, losing weight somo in itself is very difficult. the main thing is to maintain a calorie deficit. but I think whatever diet is, it just needs to be healthy. it is most importantAll of the red lights on the wall behind me have started flashing.
Well, losing weight somo in itself is very difficult. the main thing is to maintain a calorie deficit. but I think whatever diet is, it just needs to be healthy. it is most importantAll of the red lights on the wall behind me have started flashing.
And a number of buzzers have gone off.
I could be wrong.
Jus' sayin'.
All I hear is this (https://bigsoundbank.com/detail-0451-iphone-ringtone-alarm.html).
Well, losing weight somo in itself is very difficult. the main thing is to maintain a calorie deficit. but I think whatever diet is, it just needs to be healthy. it is most importantAll of the red lights on the wall behind me have started flashing.
And a number of buzzers have gone off.
I could be wrong.
Jus' sayin'.
All I hear is this (https://bigsoundbank.com/detail-0451-iphone-ringtone-alarm.html).
Seems to be happening a lot lately. Have you recalibrated your bullshit sensors or something? ;D
Due to many reasons I've been off the bike this year. Since getting into cycling my weight bounces between 12 and 15 stone so now I'm at my upper weight. I've been reading about riders not fueling with carbs instead cutting carbs right down in their diet so they are in effect fueling on body fat.
Does this really work? If so how long does it take for the body to adapt?
Does this really work? If so how long does it take for the body to adapt?
I have a good blueberry Soufflee which works within my macros.Please share :D
I had to look up Erythrit. By the Google page hits I assume it's the sweetener Erythritol. You may need to proof-read the original before translation - the "Zutaten für Streusel" include "1 voller Esslöffel Xylit (Süßstoff) oder Zucker" but the "Zubereitung Streusel" says "...und Erythrit in eine Schüssel geben...". That looks like a mistake.I changed the text from Xylitol to Erythrit myself as Xylitol is dangerous to dogs. I missed one in the text. Yes, erythrit is erythritol.
Yes, translate please, I can get a rough gist of it, but my German is pretty rustyLow Carb Apple Streusel
Also Canderel is not Keto - erythritol, stevia and xylitol (if you have no dogs) are the recommended sweeteners. They don’t spike your insulin levels.
Also Canderel is not Keto - erythritol, stevia and xylitol (if you have no dogs) are the recommended sweeteners. They don’t spike your insulin levels.
I find that they do affect blood sugar, quite strongly in the case of xylitol as I found out after accidentally purchasing a tube of sugar free mints for POP on an audax. I'm fairly sure they were xylitol. I was quite surprised.
I'd probably just make the streusel with sugar, but use less of it, and go for a ride.
Sugar alcohols are nearly 100% carb but they are not absorbed somehow so function as 0 carbs.? I might have misunderstood but alcohol (ethanol) is not a carbohydrate but it is metabolised by the body and has a calorific value.
Sugar alcohols are nearly 100% carb but they are not absorbed somehow so function as 0 carbs.
Please don't hate me for sharing a Daily Mail article...but its very topical to the subject at hand.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9314239/Growing-army-doctors-helping-patients-REVERSE-DIABETES.html?fbclid=IwAR0C5hAybMh45rIm86FkmVKLMroY8mssVAF4H19tr8BeUe8RPNxC3UOijUs
For the record, any weight loss will impact type 2 diabetes (and this has long been the recommendation).
I dunno, go eat out in a restaurant in Kigali, then do the same in Atlanta. I guess those Rwandans have better hormones than the good people of Georgia.
(Of course, it's more complicated, and of course, how we respond to the food – and the type of food – we eat is important, but jeezus, the US is the land of bottomless fries and 32-ounce sodas.)
Please don't hate me for sharing a Daily Mail article...but its very topical to the subject at hand.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9314239/Growing-army-doctors-helping-patients-REVERSE-DIABETES.html?fbclid=IwAR0C5hAybMh45rIm86FkmVKLMroY8mssVAF4H19tr8BeUe8RPNxC3UOijUs
No hate on you, but I’ll go out on a limb and point out that a significant proportion of the visible low carb evangelists have managed to combine some form of Covid denial with climate change denial.
That’s not to say the approach is without merit, but the team at Newcastle Uni have achieved similar results for T2 diabetes in peer reviewed studies using very low calorie, but sugar based, diets to support significant weight loss.
Please don't hate me for sharing a Daily Mail article...but its very topical to the subject at hand.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9314239/Growing-army-doctors-helping-patients-REVERSE-DIABETES.html?fbclid=IwAR0C5hAybMh45rIm86FkmVKLMroY8mssVAF4H19tr8BeUe8RPNxC3UOijUs
No hate on you, but I’ll go out on a limb and point out that a significant proportion of the visible low carb evangelists have managed to combine some form of Covid denial with climate change denial.
That’s not to say the approach is without merit, but the team at Newcastle Uni have achieved similar results for T2 diabetes in peer reviewed studies using very low calorie, but sugar based, diets to support significant weight loss.
Really?
Low carb evangelist T1D, double vaccinated because having had flu while diabetic, the idea of COVID for me and my disabled son is fucking scary.
And BTW, my career has been built on helping organisations with how they deal with climate change.
Seems I contradict every element of that?
Huh, none of the keto people I know are covid/vaccine/climate change deniers.
The concept that insulin is a fat storing enzyme used to ready people for times of hardship by storing fat during times of plenty is really key to a lot of this...
Cara B Ebbeling et al, Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on insulin-resistant dyslipoproteinemia—a randomized controlled feeding trial, The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2021). DOI: 10.1093/ajcn/nqab287Interesting paper suggesting low carb diets improve a variety of cardiac risk factors.
I wonder why??? :)I know, who would have guessed?
I wonder why??? :)I know, who would have guessed?
I have found it fine maintaining my weight but I continue to track my food when at home using the YAZIO app.
I am now in the Uk visiting Mum for four days and not tracking food (too fussy, difficult, awkward) and although I’m eating salad lunches as usual I am definitely helping myself to more cheese etc as I am not tracking.
I have a feeling that I will need to continue tracking my food intake pretty much indefinitely as if I don’t then I just go mad eating too much. There’s a reason I’ve been obese my whole life!
Tracking food is Ok, it’s only a few minutes a day, but it does show my lack of self control is never far away…
Tracking food is Ok, it’s only a few minutes a day, but it does show my lack of self control is never far away…