Female Friendly Audax.

[frankly frankie]

"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?

It's not an audax thing - it's a yacf thing.

[Karla]

It's notable that JBB was complaining of people being patronising to her while at the same time being disparaging and patronising to younger people, those on carbon bikes and those with decent clothing.  Beams and motes eh?

[JBB]

It's notable that JBB was complaining of people being patronising to her while at the same time being disparaging and patronising to younger people, those on carbon bikes and those with decent clothing.  Beams and motes eh?

Hmm, I think you're jumping to conclusions here. I was attempting to define the subgroups that exist in the audax world at 2 distances. I don't believe I defined which group I belong too, although it varies from time to time depending on weather and circumstance. I just wish I could ride a bit faster!

[jsabine]

It's notable that JBB was complaining of people being patronising to her while at the same time being disparaging and patronising to younger people, those on carbon bikes and those with decent clothing.  Beams and motes eh?

I think that's a stretch. I took her to be using 'carbon bling' as a shorthand, maybe a clumsy one, for the sorts of riders who feel that their expensive kit not only validates them as a person, but also aren't shy of indicating that they think people without the same sort of kit are thereby diminished.

They're not common, but they do exist.




(Then again, I do think JBB does jolly well for a girl.)

[JBB]

It's notable that JBB was complaining of people being patronising to her while at the same time being disparaging and patronising to younger people, those on carbon bikes and those with decent clothing.  Beams and motes eh?

I think that's a stretch. I took her to be using 'carbon bling' as a shorthand, maybe a clumsy one, for the sorts of riders who feel that their expensive kit not only validates them as a person, but also aren't shy of indicating that they think people without the same sort of kit are thereby diminished.

They're not common, but they do exist.




(Then again, I do think JBB does jolly well for a girl.)

Git 

[Peter]

Yes, but that's miles (kilometres) after your original complaint!

So I know I'm on the same page. What is my original complaint?

J

J, I was referring to post 127, which is where I came in, I think.  We seem to have come a long way since then.  I'd be more likely to be addressed with, "This your first hip replacement, then?2

peter

[Karla]

It's notable that JBB was complaining of people being patronising to her while at the same time being disparaging and patronising to younger people, those on carbon bikes and those with decent clothing.  Beams and motes eh?

Hmm, I think you're jumping to conclusions here. I was attempting to define the subgroups that exist in the audax world at 2 distances. I don't believe I defined which group I belong too, although it varies from time to time depending on weather and circumstance. I just wish I could ride a bit faster!

Well I felt targeted and someone else on the thread also felt targeted by your comments, so perhaps leave off the clumsy characterisations if you want to carry on complaining when other people make them about you.

[quixoticgeek]

J, I was referring to post 127, which is where I came in, I think.  We seem to have come a long way since then.  I'd be more likely to be addressed with, "This your first hip replacement, then?2

Ah, that makes more sense.

I had to ask, as if you read all the way back to the start, my first negative post on this thread was:

The form on the randonneurs NL site is not exactly well designed. I'd entered 3 events before I noticed that there was a symbol I could click on and change from a male symbol to a female symbol. It's a pretty poor UI choice. I don't know if my gender has been corrected on the rides that I did do, before I realised that was on the form. I really should feedback this to who ever it is that sorts the website, but seeing as I've sent far too many naggy emails to the board recently, I'd like to give it a while before opening yet another can or worms...

Then there is the fact this thread came out of another couple of threads on the subject of diversity, which I think all started with the AUK website money wasting exercise.

J

[Peter]

Ah, ok!

[Kim]

"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?

It's not an audax thing - it's a yacf thing.

I think I'll agree with that, though obviously there's plenty of overlap.

See also:
Skinny road tyres
Hipster fixie
BSOist
Clown bike
Upwrongs
'Special needs'
Gnarly MTBer
Kitchen-sink tourist
Beard and sandals recumbent
Magic hats
Mildly Inappropriate Bikes™
Brooks and Carradice
Bikepackers who haven't discovered panniers
Skip bike and bodge it
Eating chemicals (gels, etc. as opposed to Real Food)
Steel is real
Various forms of electrical and aerodynamic 'cheating'
Getting a lift on somebody else's bike
Anything judgemental about other people's mudguards
FRIKKIN LAZERS and anaemic glowworms
Motorised morons, lemmings, and zombies^[1]
Silly Sustrans Gates™^[1]

Stereotypes are sometimes useful, and around here tend to be used in a tongue-in-cheek manner.  (For reference, at least half of that list could apply to me in different cycling contexts.)

That said, I reckon carbon bling is considered fair game in a way that, say, clown bikes aren't.  Personally that's out of a general sense of awe at people willingly doing things like audaxes on a Brompton.  I think YACF (and audax) has a culture of appreciating less mainstream forms of cycling, though not to the extent of say the HPV community^[2].


_{[1] I know these aren't actually referring to cyclists, but they're common, ostensibly derogatory terms, that tend to get used with a degree of irony.  For example, I think most of us accept that pedestrians have a right to wander about without looking properly, and acknowledge that Sustrans aren't actually responsible for the anti-cycling barriers on the NCN.
[2] I recall a BHPC race where I was doing unexpectedly well, and suddenly found various [male] riders trying to pace me in the hope that I might beat the woman in 1st position, purely on the basis that she was riding a conventional diamond-framed road bike.}

[hellymedic]

"Carbon Bling" - from the posts above, I'm a bit lost as to why/if this is a negative characteristic ?

It's not an audax thing - it's a yacf thing.

It's a Trigger's broom thing.

It's a Sheddi thing.

Some old guard are happy and successful using ancient gear that has been nurtured over the years.

Who can belittle their nostalgic 'retro' pride?

Getting maximum mileage from old kit is commendable.

Being judgemental about new stuff might not be.

[Exit Stage Left]

I started the thread because I was concerned that most attention was focused on 'willy-waving' rides. I'm complicit in that, as I've filmed the most 'macho' rides, in the Pendle 600 and Mille Pennines. That's because it's easiest to film climbing. The single best location to convey machismo in Audax is Hardknott Pass.

This film features Hardknott, and the Browns climbing it on a tandem. That's obviously a massively skewed sample, riding a tandem up a 33% climb is a considerable athletic feat. The whole film is about sampling rates, and the female representation is closer to overall female participation in Audax, rather than that in the difficult, but spectacular, rides shown. Another 'over-sampled' group is riders who have perished on Audaxes, there are a couple in there, and that's one reason for the religious overtones at the end, another being Aidan's then recent bereavement.

The more difficult the rides become, the lower the female completion rates will be. The same is true of higher BMI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FlblL27Ydc

I'd be quite interested to know female participation rates in Audax, and the rates of validation.

The most accessible statistics are from PBP with a Female DNF rate of 28.5% in 2015, and a Male DNF rate of 18.4%. I did wonder if those DNF rates were representative of DNF rates in the qualifiers.

In notional cohorts of 100 women and 100 men starting in the 200 qualifiers. How many men and how many women would be left if those relative DNF rates applied throughout the qualifying SR series?

I've actually no idea of what the gendered representation and DNF rates are. I'm assuming that relative representation and validation rates will vary with the 'difficulty' of the rides.

The PBP course is a 'given'. But weather conditions aren't, nor are the conditions in the home countries of the participants. It's interesting to think what 'equal' representation would consist of.

[telstarbox]

Upwrongs
 

is pretty tedious to read five times a day.

[Kim]

Upwrongs
 

is pretty tedious to read five times a day.

Outside of Darkside^[1] contexts, I find it a useful shorthand for having brought a less-than-ideal-bike, without having to go into tedious detail about contact points or aerodynamics or whatever happens to be the issue.  See also Comedy Off-Roading, which is frequently the opposite case.

But my use of the term amongst fellow recumbentists is definitely tongue-in-cheek: I own three upright bikes, and do about half my total mileage on them because they're frequently the best bike for the job.  I probably talk about that less on YACF, simply because it's less interesting.


_{[1] There's another one.}

[Exit Stage Left]

If we view PBP as an experiment in participation rates for different groupings, we can chart those rates from the first 200 qualifier, through to completion of PBP itself.

PBP was unusual in having weather conditions that varied widely, depending on where you were between 3am and 8am. But that's a 'given'. If we postulate that 'female friendly' rides are flatter rides. Does that prepare participants sufficiently for PBP?

I'd be quite interested to know female participation rates in Audax, and the rates of validation.

The most accessible statistics are from PBP with a Female DNF rate of 28.5% in 2015, and a Male DNF rate of 18.4%. I did wonder if those DNF rates were representative of DNF rates in the qualifiers.

In notional cohorts of 100 women and 100 men starting in the 200 qualifiers. How many men and how many women would be left if those relative DNF rates applied throughout the qualifying SR series?

I've actually no idea of what the gendered representation and DNF rates are. I'm assuming that relative representation and validation rates will vary with the 'difficulty' of the rides.

The PBP course is a 'given'. But weather conditions aren't, nor are the conditions in the home countries of the participants. It's interesting to think what 'equal' representation would consist of.

[1000yardstare]

Personally I think the best thing we could have, is a mentor scheme. Wanna try an Audax, not sure what's involved? Join our mentor scheme. An experienced rider, offers to ride with the newbie, showing them the ropes, explaining what it all involves, answering questions, etc... Make it voluntary on both sides.

I think it's a good idea, but the AUK approach to brevets is quite dogmatic and having a "pacer" would be against the "unsupported" approach to a randonnee.
Personally, I would strip Audax down to "it's a ride between control points where you carry a card to validate and you need to finish by xx o'clock", but many like the long list of rules

totally agree

[1000yardstare]

There's a prejudice about 'all the gear and no idea', which criticises those who've got the best kit, but can't ride well. In 1983, Richard DNF'd, but in 1995 he did less than 47 hours on the same bike.

thanks for the reply and I do understand that to an extent, but pretty much *the* reason I've saved and got that gear is as I'm quite a poor rider and struggle and usually only manage 16-20km average on a 200km. I'm not doing it to look flash or brag, I got the kit/bike as I am often riding solo, often in the dark for the end of the day, in all those various weather conditions, often very tired and the bike and the kit just for me help make me get back to the finish (in time or not), as it's a pretty scary place to be all alone in the dark somewhere you've never been before not knowing if you're even going to make it back.

I know you'll all know those feelings too at times, but it's kinda offputting to know some people are disparaging my kit/bike choices.

I def do hope to improve and indeed this year I have - but I bought the bike/kit as I love to ride, and that it is lighter than my previous bikes and helps me to ride with a bit more confidence that I'll be able to manage those (almost always solo) rides is why I saved for them.

in every walk of life there are arseholes; arseholes will be arseholes!  ignoring them is by far the best way of treating them

[jsabine]

If we postulate that 'female friendly' rides are flatter rides, ...

... then we are likely to be accused of sexism, and our accusers are likely to be right.

[Ian H]

...the AUK approach to brevets is quite dogmatic and having a "pacer" would be against the "unsupported" approach to a randonnee.
Personally, I would strip Audax down to "it's a ride between control points where you carry a card to validate and you need to finish by xx o'clock", but many like the long list of rules

totally agree

r
Pacing each other is quite normal and within the rules.  Your comment about changing Audax to suit you is odd.  The logical thing to do would be to find other kinds of events organised in a more congenial way for you.  Cycling covers a huge range of activities.  There's bound to be something already in existence which you'll find acceptable.   

[bludger]

I'm aiming to organise a ride next year and to recruit volunteers who will act as captains for underrepresented-in-audax demographics who would like to be in a larger group - even just to know that 'people like them' will be there. I expect many might split off under their own initiative. I've seen nothing in the organiser's rulebook and the audax rulebook to preclude this.

[Exit Stage Left]

If we postulate that 'female friendly' rides are flatter rides, ...

... then we are likely to be accused of sexism, and our accusers are likely to be right.

I have in front of me the Mersey Roads Club 24 Hour Result 2019 booklet. The new Men's record is 544.32 miles, and the Women's is 478.42 miles. There's actually no lower limit to the 24 hour distance, the lowest was 274.03. which sits within Audax limits, and would yield 4 points. It's possible to get a listed finish in a National TT that falls below Audax time limits.

In the absence of published distances and times the only way to indicate Audax prowess is to add AAA points. The more of those get added, the lower the female representation seems to be. So I'd view AAA points as sexist, as they lead to male-dominated events; 'Willy Wavers', which generate endless 'humble bragging' blogs.

[Ian H]

I'm aiming to organise a ride next year and to recruit volunteers who will act as captains for underrepresented-in-audax demographics who would like to be in a larger group - even just to know that 'people like them' will be there. I expect many might split off under their own initiative. I've seen nothing in the organiser's rulebook and the audax rulebook to preclude this.

Road captains are prohibited.  Informal groups and pacing each other are not.  Pointing a rider out as 'someone you might like to stick with'  is probably allowable.

[bludger]

Maybe the audax police will come and lock me up! I will review the documentation again but I'm sure sensible heads will prevail.


http://www.aukweb.net/_resources/files/official/agm/regs-apps3.pdf

From the handbook: 9. Organisation and Conduct of Brevets de Randonneur

9.9.3 Participants may ride singly or in groups and may pace each other
but may not be paced by any other cyclist.

If 'captain' is particularly contentious then I'd just publicise that riders X Y and Z is doing the ride and welcomes company. They wouldn't be volunteers supporting the ride itself. I can see how concerns over insurance might get in the way.

I wonder how the insurance policy differs when it comes to fleches.

[grams]

I note the regs allow organiser complete control over maximum speed. I’d love to run a, say 20 km/h max event, so people who ride that speed naturally have an advantage.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

‘Pacers’ in ACP parlance are folk who have not entered the brevet but are deliberately pacing folk who are riding the brevet. That is cheating. Riding with fellow entrants and assisting them is absolutely fine.

‘Road captains’ means something quite specific to the ACP. It means UAF - riding as a specific group, to a fixed schedule, not being allowed to ride faster than the road captain and so on. In historical times, there was a great rivalry between UAF and ACP, so any hint of the other side encroaching on their brevets had to be repelled at all costs. That is ancient history now and many riders take part in both forms of brevets. At least one rider has completed 12 x PBP Randonneur and 9 x PBP Audax!