Author Topic: BCM (and other classic brevets) record  (Read 6164 times)

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #50 on: 22 April, 2021, 12:44:40 pm »
Why? It's not a sportive with a wanky medal.  Not everything in life has to be a competition.

How do you then justify PBP having two (three?) separate standards?

If the standards are not a good idea, then how about 2 different brevets, say for a 400 the first group starts at 6 AM with 27 hours, the second group starts at 12 with 19 hours, or something like that...

That would also be quite handy for those who are not keen to set off before they even had the chance of having a poo...  :P

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #51 on: 22 April, 2021, 12:47:11 pm »
For clarity. I don't feel there should be any element of standards or grading finishes, but if someone is inclined to challenge themselves to ride x distance in x time all power to them if thats how they derive pleasure or a sense of achievement. As already noted there is already the scope for a range of riders completing the task as suits them.

There is, but it's meaningless... if you set off to do a 400 in 16 hours and you end up doing 18, you still get your brevet validated... whereas it would be nice if you didn't... like PBP
Call it a reliability audax, if you like

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #52 on: 22 April, 2021, 01:19:14 pm »
The seeds in group A still got a medal if they arrived at 89:59, didn't they? And AFAIK they got exactly the same medal as me if they arrived 40 hours earlier.

You seem to be trying to invent a different discipline.

arabella

  • no se porque yo no lo se
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #53 on: 22 April, 2021, 01:26:40 pm »
One of the beauties of audax is that it ranks all finishers as equal.

There are lots of ways you can challenge yourself without audax changing.  Or is it the additional recognition you're really after?  Have you thought about whether, longer term, said extra recognition (grammar school) might perhaps put off those of us who aren't going to achieve it (secondary modern) by creating a 'more exclusive' group? 

There is, but it's meaningless... if you set off to do a 400 in 16 hours and you end up doing 18, you still get your brevet validated... whereas it would be nice if you didn't... like PBP
Call it a reliability audax, if you like
No-one's forcing you to sign & hand in your brevet card at the end (though you should check back in as courtesy to the organiser).

(If you want to know more, see eg Tyranny of Merit, Sandel)
In the dark, all views are the same.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #54 on: 22 April, 2021, 01:42:23 pm »
The seeds in group A still got a medal if they arrived at 89:59, didn't they? And AFAIK they got exactly the same medal as me if they arrived 40 hours earlier.


Don't know... I was always told if you sign up for the 80 hours, you have to complete in 80 hours (aren't they called Vedettes?), otherwise you get no validation.
Otherwise, what's the point?

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #55 on: 22 April, 2021, 01:49:05 pm »
You could ask what's the point of adding a time element to Audax. It is what it is. Plenty of other opportunities to race, if that's what you want to do.
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #56 on: 22 April, 2021, 01:53:12 pm »
You could ask what's the point of adding a time element to Audax. It is what it is. Plenty of other opportunities to race, if that's what you want to do.

Not really... there are already time limits... 15-30 km/h... it's just a question of narrowing the range to make the challenge more interesting... maybe 25-30 km/h or something. Doesn't have to affect others.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #57 on: 22 April, 2021, 02:12:44 pm »
There are lots of ways you can challenge yourself without audax changing. 

In which way?

Leaving out the Mille+  things, which are not for me... I think the only current event that would be an interesting challenge is the Pendle 600. I almost pressed the button to enter twice... just been deterred by Hardknott and Wrynose, not much the ascent, but the idea of descending after 24 hours in the saddle... it was scary enough with a functioning brain

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #58 on: 22 April, 2021, 02:17:42 pm »
PBP comes from a different tradition.  It was a race.  It doesn't come under either BRM or LRM regulations.

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #59 on: 22 April, 2021, 02:23:27 pm »
You could ask what's the point of adding a time element to Audax. It is what it is. Plenty of other opportunities to race, if that's what you want to do.

Not really... there are already time limits... 15-30 km/h... it's just a question of narrowing the range to make the challenge more interesting... maybe 25-30 km/h or something. Doesn't have to affect others.
So do it. Challenge yourself. No need to change audax.
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Hot Flatus

  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #60 on: 22 April, 2021, 02:43:36 pm »
There are lots of ways you can challenge yourself without audax changing. 

In which way?

Leaving out the Mille+  things, which are not for me... I think the only current event that would be an interesting challenge is the Pendle 600. I almost pressed the button to enter twice... just been deterred by Hardknott and Wrynose, not much the ascent, but the idea of descending after 24 hours in the saddle... it was scary enough with a functioning brain

OK, so you now know your limits. In audax terms, a firm bronze.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #61 on: 22 April, 2021, 02:54:39 pm »
There are lots of ways you can challenge yourself without audax changing. 

In which way?

Leaving out the Mille+  things, which are not for me... I think the only current event that would be an interesting challenge is the Pendle 600. I almost pressed the button to enter twice... just been deterred by Hardknott and Wrynose, not much the ascent, but the idea of descending after 24 hours in the saddle... it was scary enough with a functioning brain

OK, so you now know your limits. In audax terms, a firm bronze.

Yes...

I think I need to find a different long distance platform, as it's clear Audax is no longer working for me. I thought about doing 12 h TTs, but they all seem to go up and down the same stretch of dual carriageway for half a day... if only they were a bit more interesting...

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #62 on: 22 April, 2021, 02:56:06 pm »
There are 3 pbp events that are on at the same time, with 80, 84 and 90 hour time limits. There are also multiple start waves. This is to spread out many thousands of riders to reduce demand on controls. Not really an issue with normal audaxes.

There are plenty of other events that are races. It might me more appropriate to enter one of them. They also tend not to have limits on maximum speed.

Any event that involves tea and cake is inherently not a race in my mind. That would be just asking for indigestion.

My suggestions that golf should be won by the person that gets round the course fastest irrespective of the number of shots taken has not proved popular though personally I feel it would be an improvement.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #63 on: 22 April, 2021, 03:07:37 pm »


There are plenty of other events that are races. It might me more appropriate to enter one of them.

Surprisingly not that many. BC categorised racing is basically a ticket to A&E at my level. Everyone I know who has done a bit of Cat 4 racing, has also been involved in a fair share of crashes.
I do a bit of TT, but I tend to enjoy the short stuff... I don't really want to spend more than half an hour on a dual carriageway.
Then there is this new trend for self supported racing, which is appealing, but I have only seen things that last a fortnight, rather than 12-24 hours.


Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #64 on: 22 April, 2021, 03:18:48 pm »
Cancelled due to covid but this sort of thing might interest you: https://www.sientries.co.uk/event.php?event_id=6613

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #65 on: 22 April, 2021, 03:33:19 pm »
Cancelled due to covid but this sort of thing might interest you: https://www.sientries.co.uk/event.php?event_id=6613

We did look into it pre-pandemic, it was a nice idea... I think in the end we didn't sign up because it did seem a bit steep...  maybe they should have charged 40 and leave out the cycling jersey that nobody really wants to wear... but I might do it next year

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #66 on: 22 April, 2021, 04:04:04 pm »
There are 3 pbp events that are on at the same time, with 80, 84 and 90 hour time limits. ...

When I rode PBP (3x) the starts were different and the full-value riders set off at 4am, the 'randonneurs' at 10am and the vedettes at 4pm.  Everyone had to finish by the same cut-off time.  In practice the time differences were more or less ironed out by half distance, and riders from all 3 groups rode the backward 600 all mixed together, all  with the same challenges and concerns - we were very much all in the same event.

Quote
Any event that involves tea and cake is inherently not a race in my mind. That would be just asking for indigestion.

But it's only a particular mindset that associates audax with tea and cake.  For some people it's all about the stops - whereas I always thought it was all about cycling.
you only live but once, and when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #67 on: 22 April, 2021, 04:05:24 pm »


There are plenty of other events that are races. It might me more appropriate to enter one of them.

Surprisingly not that many. BC categorised racing is basically a ticket to A&E at my level. Everyone I know who has done a bit of Cat 4 racing, has also been involved in a fair share of crashes.
I do a bit of TT, but I tend to enjoy the short stuff... I don't really want to spend more than half an hour on a dual carriageway.
Then there is this new trend for self supported racing, which is appealing, but I have only seen things that last a fortnight, rather than 12-24 hours.
Racing is available for older wiser riders too ... https://bmcr.org.uk

.. and there are some fast sportives - e.g tour of Cambridge the group I was with when I did it in 2017 averaged 37km/h for over 3 hours.

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #68 on: 22 April, 2021, 04:28:18 pm »
There are 3 pbp events that are on at the same time, with 80, 84 and 90 hour time limits. ...

When I rode PBP (3x) the starts were different and the full-value riders set off at 4am, the 'randonneurs' at 10am and the vedettes at 4pm.  Everyone had to finish by the same cut-off time.  In practice the time differences were more or less ironed out by half distance, and riders from all 3 groups rode the backward 600 all mixed together, all  with the same challenges and concerns - we were very much all in the same event.

Quote
Any event that involves tea and cake is inherently not a race in my mind. That would be just asking for indigestion.

But it's only a particular mindset that associates audax with tea and cake.  For some people it's all about the stops - whereas I always thought it was all about cycling.
It was probably a smaller field then, not 7000+. Now the 80hr vedettes set off ahead of the 90hr riders so the finish is spread over days.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #69 on: 22 April, 2021, 04:46:14 pm »
Can I be the first to say on this thread that...

I came 4th on an audax once. 🥴

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #70 on: 22 April, 2021, 04:51:26 pm »
For clarity. I don't feel there should be any element of standards or grading finishes, but if someone is inclined to challenge themselves to ride x distance in x time all power to them if thats how they derive pleasure or a sense of achievement. As already noted there is already the scope for a range of riders completing the task as suits them.

There is, but it's meaningless... if you set off to do a 400 in 16 hours and you end up doing 18, you still get your brevet validated... whereas it would be nice if you didn't... like PBP
Call it a reliability audax, if you like

There's an easy way to fix that: instead of riding faster than the time limit to finish early, start late so you have to ride at target pace to finish on time.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #71 on: 22 April, 2021, 05:57:28 pm »
For clarity. I don't feel there should be any element of standards or grading finishes, but if someone is inclined to challenge themselves to ride x distance in x time all power to them if thats how they derive pleasure or a sense of achievement. As already noted there is already the scope for a range of riders completing the task as suits them.

There is, but it's meaningless... if you set off to do a 400 in 16 hours and you end up doing 18, you still get your brevet validated... whereas it would be nice if you didn't... like PBP
Call it a reliability audax, if you like

There's an easy way to fix that: instead of riding faster than the time limit to finish early, start late so you have to ride at target pace to finish on time.

I did think about that, to be honest, especially for those brevets starting at 6 AM, I would rather start at 9 or 10 AM, even more so in spring, when mornings are cold. But generally you are expected to collect your card on time... then it leaves you with hours to fill.
Besides, if the organiser sticks to the rules, you're out of time at the first few controls

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #72 on: 22 April, 2021, 08:28:48 pm »
It was myself that originally devised the Castleton Classic 200k route.  Before it became an Audax event it was the North Birmingham CTC's annual 140 in 12 with a slightly different start and finish point.  That was around 1982 if I remember correctly and it became an Audax around 1995.

Andy Wilkinson and Lynn Taylor rode it on a tandem as training for their upcoming end-to-end record in 1995(?) and finished in just over 7-hours I think.

I do know that Mick Potts rode and completed it in under 8 hours.
Having known Mick, I can imagine him dryly commenting “ if I knew it was timed I’d have made an effort”

Seriously though, Audax cannot, and should not, time individuals or publish times. To do so would make the event a race within the Cycle Racing on the Highway definition, and would also change the whole character and ethos of Audax.
I can’t begin to imagine the work in organising a 200km race, for of course a much reduced field; probably 60 maximum. Police permissions, risk assessments, accredited marshalls at every junction etc etc.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #73 on: 23 April, 2021, 06:32:10 am »
It was myself that originally devised the Castleton Classic 200k route.  Before it became an Audax event it was the North Birmingham CTC's annual 140 in 12 with a slightly different start and finish point.  That was around 1982 if I remember correctly and it became an Audax around 1995.

Andy Wilkinson and Lynn Taylor rode it on a tandem as training for their upcoming end-to-end record in 1995(?) and finished in just over 7-hours I think.

I do know that Mick Potts rode and completed it in under 8 hours.
Having known Mick, I can imagine him dryly commenting “ if I knew it was timed I’d have made an effort”

Seriously though, Audax cannot, and should not, time individuals or publish times. To do so would make the event a race within the Cycle Racing on the Highway definition, and would also change the whole character and ethos of Audax.
I can’t begin to imagine the work in organising a 200km race, for of course a much reduced field; probably 60 maximum. Police permissions, risk assessments, accredited marshalls at every junction etc etc.

Lots of events seem to get away with publishing times and not being a race, anyway, that's not the point. Nobody cares for times to be published, just as nobody cares about sportive times to be published... there is Strava for that.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #74 on: 23 April, 2021, 09:46:57 am »
And - oddly - AUK do publish some 'winning' Arrows distance achievements.  See here (click on either of the Arrow headings):
https://audax.uk/results/annual-awards/arrows-darts-trails/

To address a much earlier point:
Bryan Chapman memorial is a BRM, so all times will have been submitted to and recorded by ACP. I know I could see all my brevet times when entering PBP
Whether someone would be inclined to retrieve that information is another matter.

All times that have been submitted to AUK** have been recorded by AUK and are retained, right back to the mid-1970s.  Just not published.

** times are only required for BRMs, for other events BRs and Populaires, it's about a 50-50 split whether the Organiser passes the times on, or not.  Where they are passed on, they are recorded.
you only live but once, and when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll