Author Topic: PBP - Reflective vests?  (Read 99301 times)

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #150 on: 21 October, 2010, 09:15:37 am »
You could just... align your rear light :P

On the whole though I think reflectives are not too shabby, as it allows some leeway for the unexpected (like, your rear light bounces off and smashes and you are miles from home on an unlit road). It's just a shame to make people wear dustbin suits when there are quite servicable alternatives (I saw a guy the other day whose rear mudguard had been lined with an unbelievably bright reflective material, but that wouldn't be legal for all that the surface area was larger than many high-viz tops).

Although it looks good, the eBay one linked above doesn't say it's marked with either applicable EN standard. I'd be wary of turning up with such a garment just because, for simplicity, they might have told the officials to check for garments which fulfill the French law requirement, without a "we're going to spend 5 minutes arguing that it's just as good" phase to fall back on.

Clandy

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #151 on: 21 October, 2010, 09:20:02 am »
(I saw a guy the other day whose rear mudguard had been lined with an unbelievably bright reflective material, but that wouldn't be legal for all that the surface area was larger than many high-viz tops).

I have also done this. I was unaware it was illegal though?

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #152 on: 21 October, 2010, 09:29:18 am »
(I saw a guy the other day whose rear mudguard had been lined with an unbelievably bright reflective material, but that wouldn't be legal for all that the surface area was larger than many high-viz tops).

I have also done this. I was unaware it was illegal though?

Sloppy language by EF:
I assume he meant your reflective would not be sufficient to make you and your bike legal i.e. it wouldn't match the EN-whatevers.


... I suppose I'd better make the point that this is all anecdotal and based on riding mostly in totally dark rural areas.  It does not apply to brightly illuminated London where camouflage clothes are better to be seen, helmets kill small children and brakes are instruments of the anti-christ.
I think PBP will be more like the former than the latter (unless they've spent a lot on streetlights since '07)!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Panoramix

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Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #153 on: 21 October, 2010, 10:52:10 am »

 I suppose I'd better make the point that this is all anecdotal and based on riding mostly in totally dark rural areas.  It does not apply to brightly illuminated London where camouflage clothes are better to be seen, helmets kill small children and brakes are instruments of the anti-christ.

POTD
Chief cat entertainer.

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
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Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #154 on: 21 October, 2010, 11:22:11 am »
My own experience of driving a car around here is that I see "Scotchlite" reflected in my headlights from further away than some of the inadequate rear lights in use.

+1
But a Superflash is visible in daylight from 200 metres away
Caught someone at night with two on their bike and it was "nuclear"
I would assume the same goes for any of the current 1/2 W rear lights

So if you ride a BSO with no lights or a £2.99 set from Tescos then Scotchlite is better
Most audax riders have spent more than £10 on their rear light(s) so the lights beat the reflectives

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #155 on: 21 October, 2010, 11:31:26 am »
(I saw a guy the other day whose rear mudguard had been lined with an unbelievably bright reflective material, but that wouldn't be legal for all that the surface area was larger than many high-viz tops).

I have also done this. I was unaware it was illegal though?

Sloppy language by EF:
I assume he meant your reflective would not be sufficient to make you and your bike legal i.e. it wouldn't match the EN-whatevers.

Thanks - that is precisely what I meant.

The irony is that of two riders, the one with the larger area of reflective material (and also the one who can't lose it, forget to put it on, or whatever) might get a ticket, while the one who didn't bother with any of that but has a small amount of reflective on a jacket would be fine.

AFAIK the lower EN standard requires 25 square cm of reflectives. Realistically you could match this with a 5cm strip on a mudguard, and all the rest is pure bonus. Now as it happens, I think somebody will either be looking out of the front of their car, in which case they'll see you just fine, or they won't be, and then it doesn't matter what you've done. But, things do always get up my nose when they make no sense.

For whatever it's worth, I've ridden extensively from Edinburgh to Dunfermline and back (including the A90, immediately after the cycle ban comes off), as I worked out there for three years. For most of that time I didn't have anything except lights and I have to say, the problems only started once I got into the streetlit areas (where people could see me more easily?) - out on the open road it was pure joy, even though it was rush hour I can't really remember *any* close passes at night.

At PBP you'd especially anticipate that drivers might notice bikes, given that there are about 5,000 of them on the road.

Clandy

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #156 on: 21 October, 2010, 11:37:15 am »
They can be looking straight at you, you can be wearing hi-vis, in broad clear-blue-sky sunshine, and they <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/140C2FsB2J4&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/140C2FsB2J4&rel=1</a>.

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #157 on: 21 October, 2010, 12:48:44 pm »
(I saw a guy the other day whose rear mudguard had been lined with an unbelievably bright reflective material, but that wouldn't be legal for all that the surface area was larger than many high-viz tops).

I have also done this. I was unaware it was illegal though?

Sloppy language by EF:
I assume he meant your reflective would not be sufficient to make you and your bike legal i.e. it wouldn't match the EN-whatevers.

Thanks - that is precisely what I meant.

The irony is that of two riders, the one with the larger area of reflective material (and also the one who can't lose it, forget to put it on, or whatever) might get a ticket, while the one who didn't bother with any of that but has a small amount of reflective on a jacket would be fine.

AFAIK the lower EN standard requires 25 square cm of reflectives. Realistically you could match this with a 5cm strip on a mudguard, and all the rest is pure bonus. Now as it happens, I think somebody will either be looking out of the front of their car, in which case they'll see you just fine, or they won't be, and then it doesn't matter what you've done. But, things do always get up my nose when they make no sense.

But a 5cm strip on a mudguard (like in that picture) isn't visible from all directions, which is part of the EN standards. It's not just 25 square cm of reflectives.

It's not just for people coming up behind you, it's for people coming up to junctions at side roads, infront of you and off to one side, etc.

Recumbents are a different matter as the PBP regulations say that they should just make suitable use of additional reflective material as any gilet/waistcoat would be obscured:-

"
If your reflective gear is obscured (perhaps because you are carrying a backpack or riding a recumbent) ensure you have additional reflective material to ensure you are visible
"
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #158 on: 21 October, 2010, 01:44:22 pm »
But a 5cm strip on a mudguard (like in that picture) isn't visible from all directions, which is part of the EN standards. It's not just 25 square cm of reflectives.

It's not just for people coming up behind you, it's for people coming up to junctions at side roads, infront of you and off to one side, etc.

The problem with this line of thought is that, for example, people coming up to junctions from side-roads will not hit you with their headlights until you are literally in front of them (and nobody coming up to a junction is looking there, rather they look to either side where they expect to see traffic). Of course, that's simply a fundamental problem with all reflectives, not with their position on bike/body, and a good illustration of why lights are more important.

I was once almost caught out by a rider who had pretty much a full luminous body suit on while driving round a right-hand bend. Of course my headlights were hitting the verge, and there was nothing to indicate he was there at all except the faintest of bobby-dodger red LEDs. Sure enough, when I straightened up he blazed into life like a lighthouse. Good job I wasn't doing 60mph though  :sick:

Anyway, to get back to the point at hand, reflectives on the mudguard are at the perfect height and also maximally visible to the traffic which is most likely to nail you. After all, on an open road ultra-distance ride, probably 99% of vehicles interacting with you are following on, and I'd have thought over 99% of accidents too (there can't be too many junction crashes or head-ons at night when your lights are so obvious).

That's not an argument against adding extra reflectives or extra lights, because you never know when you might be the one to get tangled in a freak incident, and it's quite understandable that people who're afraid want to  do anything to feel more comfortable. But I think it probably is an argument against *mandating* extra stuff that isn't likely to make any difference.

Recumbents are a different matter as the PBP regulations say that they should just make suitable use of additional reflective material as any gilet/waistcoat would be obscured:-

"
If your reflective gear is obscured (perhaps because you are carrying a backpack or riding a recumbent) ensure you have additional reflective material to ensure you are visible
"

Yes, but the downside is that this is subjective again. You chaps can simply provide a basic EN-compliant vest and there's no way they can refuse - after all, it's specified in their own law.

As soon as you have a subjective value it becomes troublesome - remember that some people would argue that no amount of reflectives make a recumbent visible. Come to Edinburgh and go for a test ride and you'll find a neverending stream of snivellers to tell you so (curiously, never motorists though - only cyclists have trouble with it).

And that's the thin end of the wedge, next you're onto the stupid flags, and it all gets a bit awkward when you point out that if you can ride through capital city winter rush hour without any trouble, you probably don't need to take emergency precautions to ride on a quiet back road, and yes, you're considerably higher than the lane markings we're navigating by...

bah!  :facepalm: </rant>

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #159 on: 21 October, 2010, 02:07:23 pm »
...I'd have thought over 99% of accidents too (there can't be too many junction crashes or head-ons at night when your lights are so obvious).

Check the actual numbers, you'll be quite surprised.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #160 on: 21 October, 2010, 02:10:46 pm »
You're confusing an discussion about compliance with PBP rules and EN standards with an argument about whether compliance with the standards will actually make anyone any safer.

I'm only interested in the former (here). If you want a discussion on the latter then I'd start a thread outside of the PBP sub-forum.

For an upright bike you can glue whatever you like to your bike but they're going to ask to see your EN 471/whatever-the-other-one-was certified gilet/waistcoat.

For a recumbent you're right, it'll be subjective. Good luck, but sticking an area of 25cm2 of stuff to your bike, visible only from a small range of angles from the rear, and claiming it's broadly equivalent to EN471 is unlikely to satisfy them.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

TOBY

  • hello
Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #161 on: 21 October, 2010, 04:13:44 pm »

My inner pessimist says that most will have nasty coatings that make post-production printing impossible expensive.

You can screenprint on to almost anything.
Can you conjure up a per-unit cost of printing the AUK logo (in readable size) on $random-garment ?!? Say 10-50 units?

about £15 per screen setup (one screen per colour), then £2 - £3 per pull depending on no of colours again.

so 1 colour on 30 would be £15 for the screen + £60 = £75/30=£2.50 each plus the cost of the garment
so 2 colours on 30 would be £30 fro 2 screens + £75 = £75/30=£3.50 each plus the cost of the garment

you get the idea

roughly roughly roughly.

alternatively go to an Art College and chip a student in Printmaking a few quid (better than a student get a technician)

Karla

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Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #162 on: 21 October, 2010, 04:45:46 pm »
Anyway, back to reflectives...

Based on my memory of the description I saw of the various standards I'd say "no" given that the standards say that the retro-reflective bands have to continue around the whole body, so a vest like that probably won't do.

(That rema link below says "bands encircling the torso".)

Interestingly enough, the FFCT gilet that was linked earlier on this thread doesn't have bands encircling the body.

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #163 on: 21 October, 2010, 04:57:46 pm »
...I'd have thought over 99% of accidents too (there can't be too many junction crashes or head-ons at night when your lights are so obvious).

Check the actual numbers, you'll be quite surprised.

Don't want to drag the topic aside any further.. But, if you can find stats anywhere which give you a breakdown of car movement for crashes  on rural roads at night, I'd be interested to see it.

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #164 on: 22 October, 2010, 10:06:20 am »
Does anyone actually have copies of the standards 1150 or 471?

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #165 on: 22 October, 2010, 10:22:05 am »
Does anyone actually have copies of the standards 1150 or 471?

*** BS charge to get them, which is why I don't.

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #166 on: 22 October, 2010, 10:29:55 am »
I'm going to go and have a blether at the library today to see if they can help. I know some libraries have subscriptions to the online service.

LEE

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #167 on: 22 October, 2010, 10:40:45 am »
Does anyone actually have copies of the standards 1150 or 471?

*** BS charge to get them, which is why I don't.

That's not why I don't.

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #168 on: 22 October, 2010, 10:45:32 am »
Does anyone actually have copies of the standards 1150 or 471?

I've got access to the British Standards database (BSOL) via the OU but I can't give anyone a copy of any of it:-

"I understand that content may not be forwarded on to non authorised users."

Downloaded them both. EN1150 is only 12 pages, EN471 is 30 pages.

What do you want to know?
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #169 on: 22 October, 2010, 11:12:02 am »
Other than actual volume of retro-reflective material, I'm just wondering, in loose terms, what other properties have to be met and how you go about approved to put the certification label on a garment.

It's a bit of catch 22 situation of trying to work out whether the creating a suitable alternative is acheivable in order to make it worth purchasing the standard in the first place.

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #170 on: 22 October, 2010, 11:29:33 am »
More than you can imagine, i.e.

"
5.2.2 Colour for background and combined performance material after xenon test

The colour after exposure shall be within the areas defined by coordinates given in the relevant Table 2. The luminance factor shall be not less than the values given in Table 2. The light fastness of the test sample shall be determined in accordance with EN 20105-B02. Exposure shall continue until the blue scale control standard number 4 has changed to step 4 of the grey scale.
"

There are sections for:-

Minimum areas of exposed material (based on the height of the garment)
Maximum area sizes of background material
Background material must meet all requirements of EN340.
Background material colours from a certain list.
The above mentioned 'xenon test'
Colour fastness of material
Photometric and physical performance requirements for the retroreflective material and combined performance material
Minimum coefficient of retroreflection for retroreflective material
Retroreflective performance requirements after test exposure
The tests are "abraison", "flexing", "folding at cold temperatures", "temperature variation", "washing", "dry cleaning" and "influence of rainfall". All defined later on in the standard.

It's rammed full of stuff like:-

"
The coefficient of retroreflection R' for retroreflective material shall exceed 100 cd lx-1 m-2 measured at observation angle 12' and entrance angle 5o.
"
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #171 on: 22 October, 2010, 11:53:14 am »
Stuff like that is what made Britain great.

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #172 on: 22 October, 2010, 12:00:33 pm »
Bloody engineers.

I probably shouldn't say that, seeing as my girlfriend is an engineer.

Ah what the heck, bloody engineers.

LEE

Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #173 on: 22 October, 2010, 12:21:37 pm »
Other than actual volume of retro-reflective material, I'm just wondering, in loose terms, what other properties have to be met and how you go about approved to put the certification label on a garment.

It's a bit of catch 22 situation of trying to work out whether the creating a suitable alternative is acheivable in order to make it worth purchasing the standard in the first place.

Let me try to help you.

What alternative are you looking to create (that doesn't exist in the market place)?

Jaded

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Re: PBP - Reflective vests?
« Reply #174 on: 22 October, 2010, 12:22:10 pm »
Spoke reflectors?
It is simpler than it looks.