Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: nuttycyclist on 08 June, 2009, 05:16:31 pm
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Yes I know I should find this in the FAQ or on the Audax site, but after a lot of searching I'm struggling. :-\
I have the routesheet for the Raid Essex 200 which I couldn't ride. The organiser has said it's fine for me to use it but a couple of controls are tricky (roadsign infos). I was thinking of marking it up on the PC, then adjusting the route south from Chelmsford towards Southend so that I can make some controls easier (I'll start from home, so the nearer it is to home the shorter my ride to the start).
I haven't done a DIY before.
All I can seem to find on the net is that I need to email Andy Uttley, but I can't find an email address. Can somebody PM me an address and note in this thread that they have done so so that I don't get swamped.
But what do I need to email? Is it just the control points, then the start date prior to riding?
Is it correct to do this as a DIY as it's based loosely on an existing ride? (I noted when I started using the mesh map to plan a different ride the website said it wasn't a DIY for Andy but a mesh ride for Daniel to authenticate :-\)
What about Brevet cards? Do I need to use one? Where can I get it from? Is it sufficient to just collect receipts/ATM slips?
Why am I seeming to make this look so complicated?
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You have checked the AUK website for info, haven't you? ;)
This document may help - and also includes contact info:
http://www.aukweb.net/cal/perms/diy.pdf
As I may have mentioned somewhere else - the Raid Essex route is a more difficult one to ride as a DIY because it had four (I think) info controls and only one "actual" control, and even that was the boot of someone's car. I don't know what you'll do for a control at Bradwell On Sea - the place seems to consist of a marsh, a car-park and a nuclear power station (not known for their Brevet stamping duties).
Would a DIY from Southend to <somewhere via somewhere else> not be an easier approach?
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You have checked the AUK website for info, haven't you? ;)
This document may help - and also includes contact info:
http://www.aukweb.net/cal/perms/diy.pdf
I notice that has two wrong email addresses. PM to Mr Nutty.
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You have checked the AUK website for info, haven't you? ;)
Yes I know I should find this in the FAQ or on the Audax site, but after a lot of searching I'm struggling. :-\
...
Couldn't find a sodding thing. Thanks for the link to the pdf
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Couldn't find a sodding thing. Thanks for the link to the pdf
It's in the Audax FAQs sticky - has been for a while ;)
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All I can seem to find on the net is that I need to email Andy Uttley, but I can't find an email address.
The one listed here is correct: AU06 (http://www.aukweb.net/cal/perms/calsolo.php?Ride=AU06)
But what do I need to email? Is it just the control points, then the start date prior to riding?
A list of control towns (where you'll get proof-of-passage), in order to agree the controls and check the distance. The DIY organiser doesn't care about the route you'll take, only the total shortest (reasonable) distance between controls.
When that's agreed you print out, fill in and sign an entry form (blank forms on the AUK website) including the agreed controls, date of your proposed ride, etc and send it to the DIY organiser. The 2 quid entry fee will get you a Brevet card as long as you remember to include an SAE.
You then do the ride collecting the proof-of-passage (including one at the start). Info control answers from other rides aren't acceptable, you'll need something with time, date and location. Fill in the brevet card appropriately, sign it, attach the proofs-of-passage (photocopy it all if you're paranoid) and submit to the DIY organiser with another SAE.
If you post your proposed control towns on here then a few of us can check for you, knowing how the DIY organisers do it themselves. That'll save them some work.
Why am I seeming to make this look so complicated?
Because it is quite complicated, and you've not done one before, and not many people do them. I seem to remember a stat along the lines of fewer than 200 individuals did DIY rides last year.
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Another approach might be to team up with some like minded souls, at least one of whom has done it before, and learn the ropes from them. Finding it all out for yourself can take some digging; and digging only really works if you have some good ideas as to what you are digging for.
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Couldn't find a sodding thing. Thanks for the link to the pdf
It's in the Audax FAQs sticky - has been for a while ;)
I shall have to take more care over my searching. The sticky was one of the places I made sure I looked before asking stupid questions.
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I seem to remember a stat along the lines of fewer than 200 individuals did DIY rides last year.
That's actually quite a high proportion of the active AUK membership. Probably around 25% to 50%.
DIYs look complicated at first but are wonderfully straightforward when you are familiar with them.
Be prepared to ride around 10% more than the shortest distance route. I can't remember the last time I submitted a DIY 200 that didn't turn out to be 215km or so long, despite the shortest distance being pretty much bang on 200km. As a result, you'll have to pedal faster.
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Weirdy Bikeman speaks Words of Power; overdistance is the name of the game with DIYs.
However - I consider it part of the challenge to minimise the effect. The shortest distance for the 600 I made out of the Raid Essex 200 was 603km - I managed it in 615km which is rather good I think... :smug:
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I seem to remember a stat along the lines of fewer than 200 individuals did DIY rides last year.
That's actually quite a high proportion of the active AUK membership. Probably around 25% to 50%.
That's huge! Is the 200 figure right?
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Roughly 50% of auk members ride events, so that's about 2200, so it's more like only 10%
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Nutty planning DIY... bandages, germolene, eyepatch, chloroform. ;)
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Roughly 50% of auk members ride events, so that's about 2200, so it's more like only 10%
Ah, I forgot there is a large rump of the membership who stick to 100km rides. When I said active, I meant those who do BR events - it would be very unusual for those who do 100km rides to bother with DIY events.
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OK, it's prompted me to check for sure from the real figures. From the 2008 Progress Graph page (http://www.aukweb.net/results/2008/champs3.php)
50.2% did not ride any events, so that's 49.8% that did, it says that 50.2% is 2107 members so we'll assume 4197 members in total, and therefore 2090 did ride events.
1039 only rode populaires this year, so that leaves 1051 members who did ride something more than a populaire.
*scrapes results list of DIY rides*
464 DIY rides (not including 50s or 100s) by 132 individual riders. That's 12.6% of Randonneurs.
551 DIY rides (including 50s and 100s) by 153 individual riders. Or 7.3% if you're counting populaires (153/2090). (The extra 21 individuals who DIY'd only populaires represent only 2% of the people who only ride populaires).
So it is between 25% and 50%, but only for suitably large values of 12.6%.
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;D
Facts vs Intuition.
Facts win.
Nice analysis.
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... in order to agree the controls and check the distance.... When that's agreed you print out, fill in and sign an entry form (blank forms on the AUK website) including the agreed controls, date of your proposed ride, etc and send it to the DIY organiser...
Greenbank, do the controls have to be agreed beforehand? Its only been 5 days since I emailed Andy Uttley, but I'm thinking, could I send an entry form, ride the ride and complete the brevet card (I once bought 6). I'm pretty sure of the route, since its out and back and over distance by 20km.
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The DIY guidelines are specific - you are responsible for the route:-
"D. Organisers cannot enter into
correspondence concerning routes and
distances."
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I guess, I didn't mean 'the route', rather, the 'controls'. But its probably all the same, my conclusion is that you don't have to get anything validated beforehand (but you can). Thanks IanH, for your reply.
The DIY guidelines are specific - you are responsible for the route:-
"D. Organisers cannot enter into
correspondence concerning routes and
distances."
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I guess, I didn't mean 'the route', rather, the 'controls'. But its probably all the same, my conclusion is that you don't have to get anything validated beforehand (but you can). Thanks IanH, for your reply.
The DIY guidelines are specific - you are responsible for the route:-
"D. Organisers cannot enter into
correspondence concerning routes and
distances."
You have to enter the ride beforehand. Without an advance entry you aren't doing the event, just the ride, so can't get points awarded for completing it.
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But, an entry form is just a formality (for insurance purposes mostly) and validation of the distance is a different thing.
AFAIK you don't need prior validation of distance before you enter and ride a DIY, but if the route is questioned and found to be underdistance, you won't get the points.
To be safe, I usually get Danial to check my distances.
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I was just about to type this:
But, an entry form is just a formality (for insurance purposes mostly) and validation of the distance is a different thing.
AFAIK you don't need prior validation of distance before you enter and ride a DIY, but if the route is questioned and found to be underdistance, you won't get the points.
To be safe, I usually get Danial to check my distances.
... so if I was going to ride anyway (i.e. the points were not the point of the ride!), I'd take a chance and not wait for confirmation.
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But, an entry form is just a formality (for insurance purposes mostly) and validation of the distance is a different thing.
AFAIK you don't need prior validation of distance before you enter and ride a DIY, but if the route is questioned and found to be underdistance, you won't get the points.
To be safe, I usually get Danial to check my distances.
You can't get points for a ride you haven't entered.
Joe tells me in advance if he considers my submitted route under distance.
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I was just about to type this:
But, an entry form is just a formality (for insurance purposes mostly) and validation of the distance is a different thing.
AFAIK you don't need prior validation of distance before you enter and ride a DIY, but if the route is questioned and found to be underdistance, you won't get the points.
To be safe, I usually get Danial to check my distances.
... so if I was going to ride anyway (i.e. the points were not the point of the ride!), I'd take a chance and not wait for confirmation.
If I was going to ride anyway and the points were not the point (!), I'd probably not enter it as a DIY and relieve myself of the burden of speed limits and predefined stopping points, gather receipts and stamps. Just ride.
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And as long as you notify the Organiser of the date of the ride before you actually start, you can put "date to be notified" on the entry form. (I hope this is correct!)
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... in order to agree the controls and check the distance.... When that's agreed you print out, fill in and sign an entry form (blank forms on the AUK website) including the agreed controls, date of your proposed ride, etc and send it to the DIY organiser...
Greenbank, do the controls have to be agreed beforehand? Its only been 5 days since I emailed Andy Uttley, but I'm thinking, could I send an entry form, ride the ride and complete the brevet card (I once bought 6). I'm pretty sure of the route, since its out and back and over distance by 20km.
Tip:
If you haven't had the controls validated, don't fill out your brevet card! Just collect receipts etc, wait for Andy's confirmation [or until you're convinced he would have replied, whatever ... ]
THEN complete the card and send it off. So you don't waste a card.
... Just ride.
But of course - it's just a bike ride :)
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OK, here's what I do (and it hasn't failed yet).
When planning a ride I come up with a list of controls that, in Autoroute 2001 (£7 on eBay) on "Quickest" with speeds set to 8/8/31/31/31 so that it is at least the required distance. Other people use viamichelin or even google maps on walking mode.
I also manually move the control locations to be close to where I'm going to control. If you just put in "Cheshunt" for example, then it punts you half way down Windmill Road (or whatever it is) so that any route going through Cheshunt gains an extra 0.8km going down that road and back up, so I move it to where I expect to control (like the Tesco on the roundabout).
I then save the .axe file, and email it to Andy U along with a cover note like this:-
"
Putney: 0km
Royal Tunbridge Wells: 59.3km
Haywards Heath: 95.5km
Brighton: 117.3km
Horsham: 150.9km
Putney: 202.6km
That's on Autoroute shortest. On 8/8/31/31/31 Quickest settings in Autoroute it comes out as 209.6km so I assume all will be ok.
"
This is just an email, not an official entry form.
Since the route was 202.6km on "Shortest" mode I'm pretty confident that it will stand up to the distance validation check. The "8/8/31/31/31" settings refer to Autoroute 2001's speed settings for different types of roads, the first two set to 8kph are "Motorways" and the second is "Other restricted access roads", i.e. where bicycles cannot go. The equal weighting of the others should mean it pick the shortest route (but doesn't always).
Anyway, several things can happen.
a) The email can get lost in the ether or spam filters.
b) Andy is on holiday before the ride begins and I get his out of office.
c) Andy responds and says "ok"
d) Andy responds and says "too short"
If all is OK I fill in an entry form with those details (I've got mine as a Word Doc with a scan of my signature embedded). All Andy has to do is print it out. I've sent him one by email two hours before starting a ride once. If I've got time I'll also print one off and post it to him, just in case. If my email entry disappears, or is junked by a spam filter, then I'm out of luck and the ride won't get validated.
If there's no response then I've got a bit of a gamble with a new route. If I'm happy that it is the required distance then I'll email him a form and, if time, post one as a backup.
Only once has a response come back of "too short, only 198km" and I was able to move the middle control to get me the extra 1km (each way). The next suggestion got an "ok". This is a route that I've never done in less than 210km in reality, but such is the fun of DIY.
The DIY organiser may suggest a change to the controls in order to make it up to distance, but you shouldn't expect this, that's all the "no correspondence" bit will mean.
Once the distance has been agreed for a bunch of controls then there's no need to agree them again (unless a new road opens that significantly shortens the route). I've done my DIY up to Cambridge and back a load of times and only agreed the distance once. If I want to ride it I email Andy an filled in entry form with the previously agreed control distances on it.
If you're worried about a route being a certain distance then post the control info on here and a few people here can check (although this won't be official).
And as long as you notify the Organiser of the date of the ride before you actually start, you can put "date to be notified" on the entry form. (I hope this is correct!)
I only send the completed entry form when I know what date I'm going to be doing the DIY ride. Anything sent before that is just an email enquiry regarding distances.
So, yes, if you're confident that the route will be the right distance then make sure Andy's got a filled in signed entry form and go for it. I never bother carrying the actual DIY Brevet card on a DIY where I know that there will be controls with appropriate receipts or ATM receipts.
Perms:
I "entered" the Cheddar Gorge 300 and paid by cheque but put "TBA" in the date part. I got the routesheet and Brevet card as expected. If I want to ride the event I have to let Nik know the date I'm going to attempt it, ideally by sending him a whole new entry form with the date filled in, pretty simple for me to do.
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here's a link to the instructions
http://www.aukweb.net/cal/perms/diy.pdf
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OK, here's what I do (and it hasn't failed yet).
Thanks Greenbank, and now I've received a response from Andy also, its totally making sense.
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remember that DIY + calendar rides are currently all listed as all DIY so that figure may go down once these extended events are listed in their own right
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A couple of addendums to GB's comprehensive response.
You can write"TBC" as the date but Andy likes to be told in a quick email when you plan to do the ride (even if it is the day before).
The route is validated by the controls not by the actual route you intend to take. It is not uncommon for a route validated as bang on 200km based on controls to actually be 210km+ when ridden. It is very rare that a DIY route actually coincides with the theoretical shortest route (mainly because we naturally try to avoid busy A roads, where a feasible B or minor road alternative exists).
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...
Anyway, several things can happen.
a) The email can get lost in the ether or spam filters.
b) Andy is on holiday before the ride begins and I get his out of office.
c) Andy responds and says "ok"
d) Andy responds and says "too short"
...
e) I just get an email receipt from Andy.
Which reminds me, I must add the receipts from July to a brevet card and post it to Andy.
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Which reminds me, I must add the receipts from July to a brevet card and post it to Andy.
Tut tut!
I take mine into work the next working day, photocopy the receipts, fill in the card and post it off ASAP. I like to see my points up there quickly!
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...
Anyway, several things can happen.
a) The email can get lost in the ether or spam filters.
b) Andy is on holiday before the ride begins and I get his out of office.
c) Andy responds and says "ok"
d) Andy responds and says "too short"
...
e) I just get an email receipt from Andy.
Which reminds me, I must add the receipts from July to a brevet card and post it to Andy.
There's a three month deadline isn't there ?
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...
Anyway, several things can happen.
a) The email can get lost in the ether or spam filters.
b) Andy is on holiday before the ride begins and I get his out of office.
c) Andy responds and says "ok"
d) Andy responds and says "too short"
...
e) I just get an email receipt from Andy.
Which reminds me, I must add the receipts from July to a brevet card and post it to Andy.
There's a three month deadline isn't there ?
DIYs are Perms aren't they, so surely you should sign it and then post it to the organiser within 48 hours (http://www.aukweb.net/cal/perms/blogperm.php) ???
(from the "on the day paragraph").
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I was only kidding, but it seems nutty has missed out.
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I was only kidding, but it seems nutty has missed out.
I wouldn't count on that.
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Which reminds me, I must add the receipts from July to a brevet card and post it to Andy.
Tut tut!
I take mine into work the next working day, photocopy the receipts, fill in the card and post it off ASAP. I like to see my points up there quickly!
A reminder to the world to get their perms & DIYs submitted as the Audax year end is imminent....
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I was only kidding, but it seems nutty has missed out.
I wouldn't count on that.
ditto, I was just stating what it says, what it does is another matter.
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I was only kidding, but it seems nutty has missed out.
I wouldn't count on that.
ditto, I was just stating what it says, what it does is another matter.
Bugger.
I emailed Andy before the ride, and made a point of getting the receipts etc. I didn't spot the 48 hour rule though so the receipts have sat on the side waiting for me to get a-round-tuit.
I've decided this week to let my RRtY fail (leg pain and no time next month). So this is probably a good thing as it'll let me save two DIY cards for next year instead of sending them off to claim points (which I don't care about) for two 300km rides.
I had a fantastic two days of riding, and absolutely loved the achievement of those 400 miles in the saddle.
That's what it is all about, not the Audax points.
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I had a fantastic two days of riding, and absolutely loved the achievement of those 400 miles in the saddle.
That's what it is all about, not the Audax points.
It can be about both though.
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True. Which is why I have made a note to email Andy tonight when I have access to my emails and ask him if he'll allow me to submit those rides ;D ;D ;D ;D
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If all is OK I fill in an entry form with those details .
Another small point to add to GB's excellent thoroughness:
If you've done an online entry (which includes using Paypal to buy Mesh cards from Danial online), I think you've bypassed the need to fill in the paper entry form? (You still need to notify him of your intentions of course.)
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If you've done an online entry (which includes using Paypal to buy Mesh cards from Danial online), I think you've bypassed the need to fill in the paper entry form? (You still need to notify him of your intentions of course.)
Are you sure? I was told that I've always got to submit a completed signed paper entry form for any ride attempted.
(You can submit an entry by email, but that's by including a Word or PDF version of the signed completed Audax entry form so that it can be printed off and look just like a normal entry form.)
To put it another way, the only valid notification of intention is a signed completed entry form.
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it has always been my understanding that for DIYs one has to submit and entry form. One has to enter the event and the form is the way of doing this. Buying cards in advance requires a form to be completed before each ride, I have read nowhere that on line entry is any different, though online entry isn't used everywhere and the arrangements seem to vary from on DIY organiser to another. Non of the DIY organisers serving this region, Sheila, Lucy and Joe have accepted online entry when I used them.
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I've always sent a scanned copy of the entry form with the autoroute file set at shortest route to Andy by email.
I've sent one the night before a ride once and had no trouble. Andy once replied that he's not at work but as mine are usually ok and as long as it is over 200km etc it should be fine to ride.
A quick email before you leave to let him or your organiser know you are going is always good also.
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Are you sure?
No I'm not sure. But I think Danial has indicated on here that his online card sales work that way (ie without entry form). Can't find it though, sorry. And I won't have used an entry form for the Transporter 200, 7/11, which I entered online.
A quick email before you leave to let him or your organiser know you are going is always good also.
And that's official.
(quote from tonyh on 28/01/09:)
Arrivee number 100 (Spring 2008), page 2, about a quarter of the way down Richard's report on the minutes:
"AUKs riding Perms are requested to confirm actual dates to organisers before the start of the ride, if not previously given. (Text,e-mail or voicemail will suffice.)"
That was presumably the result of discussion at the 12 March meeting... the actual Minutes of 12 March 08 are on the website:
"OFFICERS’ REPORTS. JW reported on a couple of new events and queried whether on DIY Perms riders should specify the distance in advance. It was generally agreed that any pre-agreed distance must be completed in full, and JW is to issue a reminder to riders to notify the Org of the intended date and distance of the ride to ensure the spirit of Audax is obeyed."
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Are you sure?
No I'm not sure. But I think Danial has indicated on here that his online card sales work that way (ie without entry form). Can't find it though, sorry. And I won't have used an entry form for the Transporter 200, 7/11, which I entered online.
Ah yes, for Perms I can see that online-entry works fine (as online entry works fine for Calendar events without a visible paper entry form). I thought we were still talking about DIYs.
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I thought we were still talking about DIYs.
Oh yes, sorry! I drifted onto the Mesh because Danial deals with both.
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Just to confirm, folks, if you buy DIY or Mesh cards from me online, then you need to send me a paper or electronic entry form before you ride.
You also need to tell me the date before you set off.
If you haven't before, make sure you do so in future. I've refused to validate rides before on this basis, so be warned!
(grrrrrrrrrrr!)
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I'm getting steadily more confused about all this. Why can't we have one set of detailed, definitive rules, procedures, protocols, whatever, for this subject?
When I do my DIY rides for my RRTY, I send a scanned image of an entry form, by e-mail, to Andy Uttley beforehand, with only the date of the month e.g. " ... October 2009" filled in. The ride is a route I've done previously, many times, and I got it approved by Andy before I rode it the first ever time. I've never sent in a paper copy of the entry form, nor have I ever advised him before the ride of the precise date I've intended to actually ride it. I just ride it when I'm ready - wake up, yawn, look out window: yup, not raining or blowing a gale, I'll go ride - I fill in the Brevet afterwards and post it. So far, this has worked OK, no problem.
Now I read that I'm supposed to nominate a precise day of the ride and inform someone in advance and get the Brevet in the post within 48 hours. Is this for both DIY and Permanent rides? Is this supposed to be the same for every Organiser/validator? Why? Why not? We should be told.
Yours, grumpily!
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I'm getting steadily more confused about all this. Why can't we have one set of detailed, definitive rules, procedures, protocols, whatever, for this subject?
You can. And I'm sure one day, someone will write them.
Why not volunteer? We can always find work for new volunteers.
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Why can't we have one set of detailed, definitive rules, procedures, protocols, whatever, for this subject?
Because people would pick holes in them anyway, and being cyclists (who generally seem to have - ahem - nonconformist tendencies) would bend and abuse them.
For example, you have to fill in an Entry Form, and the Entry Form includes a line for 'Date'.
Therefore (it seems obvious to me) one detailed, definitive rule is you have to specify the date you intend to ride, when you enter.
The fact that many people don't, or see Permanents as a carte-blanche to change their plans on the day, is because ... well, because they're cyclists. And the Organisers (and AUK officials) turn a blind eye because they're cyclists too.
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My view is that the rules are very clear, as printed in the handbook (also online).
However, some organisers have very kindly 'extended' the rules to make things easier for us, for which I'm sure we are all grateful. It's an unfortunate side-effect that not all such extensions are well documented, and vary between organisers. But you can always do a ride by sticking to the published rules.
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I'm getting steadily more confused about all this. Why can't we have one set of detailed, definitive rules, procedures, protocols, whatever, for this subject?
When I do my DIY rides for my RRTY, I send a scanned image of an entry form, by e-mail, to Andy Uttley beforehand, with only the date of the month e.g. " ... October 2009" filled in. The ride is a route I've done previously, many times, and I got it approved by Andy before I rode it the first ever time. I've never sent in a paper copy of the entry form, nor have I ever advised him before the ride of the precise date I've intended to actually ride it. I just ride it when I'm ready - wake up, yawn, look out window: yup, not raining or blowing a gale, I'll go ride - I fill in the Brevet afterwards and post it. So far, this has worked OK, no problem.
Now I read that I'm supposed to nominate a precise day of the ride and inform someone in advance and get the Brevet in the post within 48 hours. Is this for both DIY and Permanent rides? Is this supposed to be the same for every Organiser/validator? Why? Why not? We should be told.
Yours, grumpily!
Andy it seems is extending a courtesy to you and others. Not all DIY organisers operate this way, Joe, who looks after me doesn't. (as mattc said)
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I'm getting steadily more confused about all this. Why can't we have one set of detailed, definitive rules, procedures, protocols, whatever, for this subject?
When I do my DIY rides for my RRTY, I send a scanned image of an entry form, by e-mail, to Andy Uttley beforehand, with only the date of the month e.g. " ... October 2009" filled in. The ride is a route I've done previously, many times, and I got it approved by Andy before I rode it the first ever time. I've never sent in a paper copy of the entry form, nor have I ever advised him before the ride of the precise date I've intended to actually ride it. I just ride it when I'm ready - wake up, yawn, look out window: yup, not raining or blowing a gale, I'll go ride - I fill in the Brevet afterwards and post it. So far, this has worked OK, no problem.
Now I read that I'm supposed to nominate a precise day of the ride and inform someone in advance and get the Brevet in the post within 48 hours. Is this for both DIY and Permanent rides? Is this supposed to be the same for every Organiser/validator? Why? Why not? We should be told.
Yours, grumpily!
If you're scanning an entry form in advance, why not do that on the day you actually ride? 20 minutes before you set off? I've certainly emailed a scan the day before, though don't recall doing one on the day yet.
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Bridget?
Deirdre more like, with those glasses.
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Just to confirm, folks, if you buy DIY or Mesh cards from me online, then you need to send me a paper or electronic entry form before you ride.
You also need to tell me the date before you set off.
I always do O:-)
;D
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However, some organisers have very kindly 'extended' the rules to make things easier for us, for which I'm sure we are all grateful. It's an unfortunate side-effect that not all such extensions are well documented, and vary between organisers.
Well if that is indeed the case, perhaps I should keep quiet and leave sleeping dogs lie! But it seems a shame that some riders should benefit from the generous interpretation afforded by some organisers/validators and others shouldn't.
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It's generally the riders with whom I build a rapport, that I leave to it a lot more.
If I'm confident that a rider knows how to use Autoroute, I rarely check their routes, for example.
I don't think this is a shame at all, as it's the sort of benefit that anyone can enjoy, if they make the initial effort.
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It's generally the riders with whom I build a rapport, that I leave to it a lot more.
If I'm confident that a rider knows how to use Autoroute, I rarely check their routes, for example.
I don't think this is a shame at all, as it's the sort of benefit that anyone can enjoy, if they make the initial effort.
I totally agree with that - I was thinking more of the "date the entry form for the day you intend to ride" point. I find it very useful to be able to leave this vague and choose which day to ride without having to "commit" by nominating a specific day. If I had to date the form, and then I couldn't ride on that day, I'd have to send the entry form in again with a fresh date when I next could. A waste of everyone's time. The only reason I can think of for such a rigid procedure would be if the insurance company had stipulated it. Again, I can't see why they should, but you know what they're like .....
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It's generally the riders with whom I build a rapport, that I leave to it a lot more.
If I'm confident that a rider knows how to use Autoroute, I rarely check their routes, for example.
I don't think this is a shame at all, as it's the sort of benefit that anyone can enjoy, if they make the initial effort.
Only riders in your area can benefit, not anyone.
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So I have a friend asking me about DIYs and I try to point him at the diy.pdf and the link contains a PDF which says "the old document was out of date, so we're not going to tell you anything" (my paraphrasing).
I suppose I can point him here, but it would be nice if someone could've at least left the document available. :facepalm:
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I have a copy if you want it, I'm not sure if you're just having a moan though.
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I have a copy if you want it, I'm not sure if you're just having a moan though.
You're right, I made it all up.
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What are the recommended settings for viaMichelin?
[If you pick shortest, you can still get a motorway route; a motorway route is usually not the shortest route on the ground.
Whereas "bike" may be picking scenic-over-shortest, for all I know.]
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What are the recommended settings for viaMichelin?
[If you pick shortest, you can still get a motorway route; a motorway route is usually not the shortest route on the ground.
Whereas "bike" may be picking scenic-over-shortest, for all I know.]
I try several options until I get the shortest non-motorway route. Usually, it's "bike".
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So I have a friend asking me about DIYs and I try to point him at the diy.pdf and the link contains a PDF which says "the old document was out of date, so we're not going to tell you anything" (my paraphrasing).
I suppose I can point him here, but it would be nice if someone could've at least left the document available. :facepalm:
Does this refer to my website?
I'm afraid my website has gone to a health farm for a month or so. It would be back earlier, but I'm too bust with LEL2013 to go and pick it up.
The DIY details are all on the AUK website, which is where I got them from in the first place.
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So I have a friend asking me about DIYs and I try to point him at the diy.pdf and the link contains a PDF which says "the old document was out of date, so we're not going to tell you anything" (my paraphrasing).
I suppose I can point him here, but it would be nice if someone could've at least left the document available. :facepalm:
The DIY details are all on the AUK website, which is where I got them from in the first place.
I believe Simon is referring to the aukweb page - which was giving a similar message when I tried this morning.
I'd agree with him - it would be good to have something there so that people can get on with planning their spring/summer rides.
M
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So I have a friend asking me about DIYs and I try to point him at the diy.pdf and the link contains a PDF which says "the old document was out of date, so we're not going to tell you anything" (my paraphrasing).
I suppose I can point him here, but it would be nice if someone could've at least left the document available. :facepalm:
Does this refer to my website?
I'm afraid my website has gone to a health farm for a month or so. It would be back earlier, but I'm too bust with LEL2013 to go and pick it up.
The DIY details are all on the AUK website, which is where I got them from in the first place.
This link:
http://www.aukweb.net/cal/perms/diy.pdf
About DIY Perms.
This page is in the process of being updated. The previous information was out of date. A new
revised version should be available soon.
My mate hasn't replied to my email apologising for the info being missing and offering to answer any questions, yet. I pointed him at this thread, but this thread refers to that doc. :facepalm:
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For now you can look at AUK DIY events (http://www.ukcyclist.co.uk/diy) if that's any help.
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What are the recommended settings for viaMichelin?
[If you pick shortest, you can still get a motorway route; a motorway route is usually not the shortest route on the ground.
Whereas "bike" may be picking scenic-over-shortest, for all I know.]
I try several options until I get the shortest non-motorway route. Usually, it's "bike".
I submitted some routes to my local DIY org recently where I measured using ViaMichelin, 'by bike' instead of my version of Autoroute. The reason being that I have a different version or Autoroute to my DIY Org. The routes were still rejected. So now it's down to guess work.
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Need more cards after yesterday's sortie, but I can't find the current bulk purchase deal:
For now you can look at AUK DIY events (http://www.ukcyclist.co.uk/diy) if that's any help.
The above page gives these prices:
Prices for payment by post or in person: £3.00 per card, £15.00 for six cards.
Prices increased 19th Nov 2009 in line with other suppliers.
Are other franchise holders suppliers exactly the same? I can't find the info on aukweb ...
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...So now it's down to guess work.
Wherever I've rejected routes it's been obvious, looking at the map, that there's a dog-leg. It should only be a question of visually assessing whether each section is a straight line. All the mapping programs seem to do odd things now and again; a bit of human intervention is still sometimes necessary.
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The above page gives these prices:
Prices for payment by post or in person: £3.00 per card, £15.00 for six cards.
Prices increased 19th Nov 2009 in line with other suppliers.
Are other franchise holders suppliers exactly the same? I can't find the info on aukweb ...
We should all be the same, except that Danial (if and when his website's back up) and I are also offering Paypal with P&P thrown in (no SAEs required), at a slightly different price and with an extra option.
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...So now it's down to guess work.
Wherever I've rejected routes it's been obvious, looking at the map, that there's a dog-leg. It should only be a question of visually assessing whether each section is a straight line. All the mapping programs seem to do odd things now and again; a bit of human intervention is still sometimes necessary.
It's due to the different options in the different versions of Autoroute used and hence the variance in what is the 'minimum' distance. The AUK instructions for 2004 were to calculate the fastest but set to slow speeds for roads that we'd not ride on, i.e. motorways.
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And Autoroute on "Shortest" doesn't even give the absolute shortest route. It still tries to keep turns to a relative minimum.
This is an example of a section of route on shortest:-
(http://www.greenbank.org/misc/autorouteshortest.jpg)
It's blindingly obvious that it's not the absolute shortest route.
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Prices for payment by post or in person: £3.00 per card, £15.00 for six cards.
...
We should all be the same,
Merci buckets.
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I'm trying to plan my first DIY, which'll be from Nottingham to London. As this will mostly be through the Midlands, I assume Danial Webb is the guy I need to submit the details to?
Also, would someone be kind enough to check my distances for me before I submit the route? I've run it through Via Michelin, but I'm aware the Autoroute may give slightly different distances. TIA. The controls I have in mind are:
NG2 3AQ (Nottingham train station)
LE16 7NN (HSBC, High St. Market Harborough)
MK46 4YY (NatWest, Olney)
MK45 1LX (Tesco in Flitwick)
NW1 2ST (HSBC opposite St. Panacras station, London)
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It's always been my understanding that you submit the entry to the DIY Org who looks after the are where you live.
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It's always been my understanding that you submit the entry to the DIY Org who looks after the are where you live.
OK, ta. I did wonder how it worked if your route covered two (or more) regions.
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NG2 3AQ (Nottingham train station)
LE16 7NN (HSBC, High St. Market Harborough) 64
MK46 4YY (NatWest, Olney) 46
MK45 1LX (Tesco in Flitwick) 27
NW1 2ST (HSBC opposite St. Panacras station, London) 67
ViaMichelin (byBike) distances in red. Total 204.
(But I am not your DIY Organiser) ;)
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If I do a DIY entirely in, say, Wales (despite living in the SE area), IIRC I can enter with the Welsh representative. Is that right? It has an element of common sense to it ...
p.s. if ViaMichelin and Google Maps both give sufficient kilometrage (and look like the shortest-ish route) I'd go for it.
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If I do a DIY entirely in, say, Wales (despite living in the SE area), IIRC I can enter with the Welsh representative. Is that right? It has an element of common sense to it ...
It seems to be OK to do either. Lucy once said so. And I agree it seems to have an element of common sense though local knowledge isn't required to use ViaMichelin and/or Autoroute. I don't expect Joe Applegarth has a detailed knowledge of deepest West Yorks since he lives about 100 miles away in my ancestral homeland. Well maybe now he has a knowledge after process all the cards from us !!
However, I buy my cards in advance from Joe Applegarth, it would be wrong to expect another DIY Org to use Joe's card and receive no money for the work they do for me in agreeing the route and processing the card.
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If I do a DIY entirely in, say, Wales (despite living in the SE area), IIRC I can enter with the Welsh representative. Is that right? It has an element of common sense to it ...
Common-sense is to be encouraged. One thing I strive for in AUK is to have no more rules than necessary.
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And Autoroute on "Shortest" doesn't even give the absolute shortest route. It still tries to keep turns to a relative minimum.
This is an example of a section of route on shortest:-
(http://www.greenbank.org/misc/autorouteshortest.jpg)
It's blindingly obvious that it's not the absolute shortest route.
Shurely shome mishtake? On Mappoint2004 (AR+datamapping) I get 183km for Bridgewater-Bugle on your route as quickest and 171km (without the Exeter detour) for shortest but if I want to stay off the M5 then quickest with mway speed set to 0km gives me 175km.
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And Autoroute on "Shortest" doesn't even give the absolute shortest route. It still tries to keep turns to a relative minimum.
This is an example of a section of route on shortest:-
(http://www.greenbank.org/misc/autorouteshortest.jpg)
It's blindingly obvious that it's not the absolute shortest route.
Shurely shome mishtake? On Mappoint2004 (AR+datamapping) I get 183km for Bridgewater-Bugle on your route as quickest and 171km (without the Exeter detour) for shortest but if I want to stay off the M5 then quickest with mway speed set to 0km gives me 175km.
No mistake, but the key was the term "section of route". I get the same as you (no Exeter detour) if I do "Sennen to Bridgwater".
What does your setup give for that section if you do "Sennen to Wick, Scotland" on Shortest?
My point is that AR on "Shortest" is still doing something other than shortest in order to keep the journey relatively simple.
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Well vanilla quickest is 1374, shortest 1318
Taking the traditional quickest plus 0,0,20,20,20 speed profile gives 1108 but that involves taking the ferry from liverpool to Troon via Belfast. Adding Carlisle as a stop keeps us on the mainland for 1395.
Not sure what this proves except that the (any?) system is not perfect....
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I meant, what route through Devon does it give you when you do "Sennen to Wick, Scotland" on shortest?
(I'm guessing that unless there's been a big change since AR2001 it'll give you a similar route via Exeter.)
Put it another way, even on "shortest", it'll give you different routes for:-
"A to B that just so happens to go via C" than it does for "A to C" directly. And they'll be more and more odd the further away B is from A.
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I wonder if it's more down to the heuristics used to limit the search complexity. i.e. if the route is longer then less effort is put into searching for locally optimal routes.
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I wonder if it's more down to the heuristics used to limit the search complexity. i.e. if the route is longer then less effort is put into searching for locally optimal routes.
Yes, hence:-
My point is that AR on "Shortest" is still doing something other than shortest in order to keep the journey relatively simple.