Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => The Sporting Life => Topic started by: Jaded on 09 September, 2023, 09:47:26 am

Title: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 09 September, 2023, 09:47:26 am
So, the Hosts do something never done before - beat the All Blacks in a pool match.

For tonight's match I have carefully prepared a hiding place behind the sofa. Although, apparently, the predictions are that England will surprise everyone and play above all expectations at this World Cup.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 09 September, 2023, 11:58:01 am
They could play a long way above expectations and still lose!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Basil on 09 September, 2023, 08:05:32 pm
Why are England pretending to be France?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 09 September, 2023, 08:21:27 pm
First Red Card in a World Cup…
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 09 September, 2023, 08:43:38 pm
Shades of Jannie de Beer
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 09 September, 2023, 08:56:40 pm
Nice to see that my preference for Ford over 'Red' Farrell was justified.

Wonderful kicking.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 09 September, 2023, 09:45:06 pm
Both England scrum halves having monster games as well
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 09 September, 2023, 09:59:13 pm
Hmm, odd that the best England performance in a long time comes without their captain
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 09 September, 2023, 10:58:04 pm
If wanted to watch people kick goals, I'd watch the 11 man game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 09 September, 2023, 11:27:13 pm
I watched a bit of it and thought the commentary was rubbish.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 09 September, 2023, 11:32:26 pm
Yes, at one point they announced it was 27-3 when it was only 24-3. Mind you, The Guardian had that score too…
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 09 September, 2023, 11:34:40 pm
If wanted to watch people kick goals, I'd watch the 11 man game.

Going for the long penalty, and then the drop goals were masterstrokes. Designed to put the team that should have though it was on top onto the back foot instead.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 10 September, 2023, 12:22:33 am
Watching paint dry...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 10 September, 2023, 01:55:43 am
Bloody USAnians want me to pay Actual Cash Money to watch it  >:(  I'm FUMMIN!

(FUMMS)

Still, the French, Italians and Aussies hereabouts will be happy too.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 10 September, 2023, 06:03:37 am
If wanted to watch people kick goals, I'd watch the 11 man game.

That was an absolute masterclass, George Fords job application, showing why Owen Farrell has absolutely no place at fly half, or even in this team. There's no chance of him being adaptable enough to flip to that strategy.

If you can't appreciate that genius, yes, you should be watching football, or maybe tiddlywinks
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: T42 on 10 September, 2023, 08:16:44 am
Points difference notwithstanding, Ireland could have shown a little bit of mercy to Rumania.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 10 September, 2023, 11:06:33 am
If wanted to watch people kick goals, I'd watch the 11 man game.

That was an absolute masterclass, George Fords job application, showing why Owen Farrell has absolutely no place at fly half, or even in this team. There's no chance of him being adaptable enough to flip to that strategy.

If you can't appreciate that genius, yes, you should be watching football, or maybe tiddlywinks
Yeah, I don't appreciate it.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 10 September, 2023, 04:49:14 pm
A general comment.

I played a lot of rugby. I started out at flanker, moved to wing due to my speed, back to flanker and then to prop. Each role has its skills and its own flavour of excitement. The problem for so many non-players is that back play is relatively easy to understand, whereas a lot of forward play is obscure, in more than one way.

Watch how the pack reacts to a prop who has just outplayed his opposite in the scrum. Most people outside the game won't have spotted the detail, much less understood it, but they can see and enjoy spectacular running and tackling.

That dichotomy is why I prefer Union to League, because League is so much more one-dimensional. RL has its moments, but there is much more variety in RU.

On a far more basic factor, the backs don't get to do all that pretty-pretty running unless that dark and obscure work by the forwards is done. And drop-goals are far from boring.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 10 September, 2023, 04:51:52 pm
I've personally not had a lot of experience of [referee] Angus Gardner but watching him, he seems like a referee who goes with the team with power.

Talk about get your (possibly actionable) bleating in early.  This is from a Scottish international "pundit" before the game has even started.  Probably going to be a regular pundit because he has the gift of making contradictory statements.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 10 September, 2023, 05:49:13 pm
Further to my last comment, Scotland's pack has just demolished the Sarffrickans in a scrum. Technique, power, control, and all without moving more than three yards. Result: three points on the scoreboard.

Re Peter's comment on the ref, I am enjoying his style. In a way, He reminds me of Norling--talking to all the players, clear about what he wants, eloquent in communicating it and done with a decent helping of smiles. I would like to see the Scots win this one, and can't really call myself fully neutral (I don't believe in the silly "I will always support two teams" stuff)

On another note (and avoiding that head-to-head business) I was actually unsurprised when Russell  was penalised for a no-arms challenge.

This game is either going to go to a sudden explosion of running scores or a much nastier explosion of violence.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 10 September, 2023, 06:33:19 pm
A general comment.

I played a lot of rugby. I started out at flanker, moved to wing due to my speed, back to flanker and then to prop. Each role has its skills and its own flavour of excitement. The problem for so many non-players is that back play is relatively easy to understand, whereas a lot of forward play is obscure, in more than one way.

Watch how the pack reacts to a prop who has just outplayed his opposite in the scrum. Most people outside the game won't have spotted the detail, much less understood it, but they can see and enjoy spectacular running and tackling.

That dichotomy is why I prefer Union to League, because League is so much more one-dimensional. RL has its moments, but there is much more variety in RU.

On a far more basic factor, the backs don't get to do all that pretty-pretty running unless that dark and obscure work by the forwards is done. And drop-goals are far from boring.

Similar background here, started at flanker, moved to centre, a few odd games at full back and scrum half thrown in as well. I then switched to refereeing, but gave it up when I started travelling with work.

So far the refereeing has been good for me, in the main, most giving very clear comms on the decisions. Have to agree on you RU over RL every time, I once tried to explain to a RL referee why the tactical kicking actually had a relevance, because line-out and scrum are actual contests
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 10 September, 2023, 06:48:31 pm
Well, neither the points deluge nor the violence came along, so ignore my punditry! I was expecting something like the old Springbok attitude.

The head-to-head thing looks like becoming a real issue. As far as I could see, there was no malice in Curry's clash (though I do suspect his subsequent bandage was more for effect than necessity), but that clash in the last game was pretty much the same thing. And no card...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Basil on 10 September, 2023, 08:11:04 pm
All the pubs in Llandysul have ordered in loads of extra sofas for us to watch the game from behind.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 10 September, 2023, 09:17:10 pm
There's a new word: "recognisation".
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 10 September, 2023, 10:02:19 pm
That was close.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 10 September, 2023, 10:04:04 pm
And the technicians are fast asleep as well. They just showed the final score with the title "half-time".
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 10 September, 2023, 10:13:55 pm
Ooh, Fiji  :-\
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 10 September, 2023, 10:21:40 pm
There's a new word: "recognisation".

Is the Saffer pundit Bryan Habana?  I bet it was he who came up with "recognisation".  That opinion is based on a cracker he came up with later - such a cracker that I can't remember it at the moment - it fused my bryan.

In other news, I thought Fiji, whose rugby is far superior to that of Wales, were very lucky to get away with a neck tackle that didn't even get a yellow, never mind a red.  But generally, I agree with the earlier comments on the good standard of refereeing.  almost as good as rugby league, which is, admittedly, a much easier game to referee.

Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Nuncio on 10 September, 2023, 10:24:27 pm
If anyone's near Llandyssul can they let Basil know he can come out from behind the sofa now.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Basil on 10 September, 2023, 10:28:18 pm
Thanks Nuncio.  :)
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 10 September, 2023, 10:36:52 pm
If that was Semi Radadra, how much better would Fiji be if they had a whole one?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 10 September, 2023, 10:52:19 pm
He's called semi after the truck ...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 10 September, 2023, 10:56:04 pm
According to Wiki, Semi is part of his full name, not a nickname. Up to googling him, I'd never heard of a "semi-trailer", although that is his nickname apparently.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 10 September, 2023, 11:09:37 pm
I was just making stuff up, Wow.  I didn't know about the half-name or the nickname.  I don't know how it's pronounced in his case (I watch with the sound off) but the truck is pronounced "sem-eye", as you might expect!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 10 September, 2023, 11:27:53 pm
The problem is that I am a bear of little brain and don't know any of this stuff. So I can't tell from the body language of your facetious posts whether or not you are being serious.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 11 September, 2023, 12:55:40 am
You're not alone, Wow.  Often 'tis I who miscue and not the reader!  But I mean well (usually)!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 11 September, 2023, 01:00:16 am
I watched it in my local pub, a family from Mon-with-a-circumflex, heading for the airport, joining me. We confused some Spanish travellers with our conversation...

That was a thriller. We may have become a little vocal at the final knock-on.

I was actually touched by the way both teams came together after it ended.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: T42 on 11 September, 2023, 08:29:05 am
There's a new word: "recognisation".

Uh-oh. That's so plausible it'll replace recognition before long. In the media, stoopid always wins.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 11 September, 2023, 11:35:42 pm
In addition to Aussies, French, Italians and a solitary English we also have a Seth Efrican here in Battle Mountain, albeit one that lives in Denver.  I have to be polite to him, though, coz he's going to let me ride shotgun in his Shelby Mustang GT 500 this evening.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: T42 on 12 September, 2023, 08:29:53 am
Any last words?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 12 September, 2023, 01:52:39 pm
Rained off.  Will try again this morning.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 13 September, 2023, 01:22:30 pm
Last night I went onto catch-up to watch the Ireland-Romania match. Saving France-NZ for tonight.

Given the scoreline, I was expecting to see a re-run of that first Italian appearance in the WC, when John Kirwan slaughtered them almost by himself*, but I was pleasantly surprised to see that Romania were actually playing quite well. I assume that is a side-effect of so many players now under contract abroad, as with the Georgians. There has been a lot of discussion over the years about the 'meaninglessness' of 'minor countries' coming to the WC, and that is surely what it is about. 'Minnows' get a chance at an amazing experience, even if it involves being flattened by the Irish pack.

I will be honest, though, in saying that I somehow don't anticipate Portugal being in the next game for us.

*Yes, I know, but to those who don't understand the importance of forwards, he looked like it was all his own work.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 13 September, 2023, 07:16:56 pm
Well, yeah. Clearly union is a better sport for people who have played it and makes less sense to people who are just spectators.
Hence why League, indeed.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 13 September, 2023, 07:32:01 pm
League is tedious to watch, two flat lines of blokes running into each other until someone breaks, and scrums where they just lean on each other whilst stood up
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 13 September, 2023, 09:11:28 pm
People, opinions are fine but I think it's quite possible to appreciate both codes and the people who play them.  You'll never catch me complaining that League players don't argue with the ref, or wear shorts that are too tight, or that Union players have hugely silly beards and have usually been South Africans at some stage.  Have to say that I do like the attempts by the Union authorities to speed the game up, partly or maybe even wholly influenced by the time Sexton and Farrell take over kicking.  I'd also like to see a drop goal worth more than a penalty.  And I also have a more bizarre suggestion which is only partly tongue-in-cheek:  the basic premise of Rugby (of either code) is to get the ball across your opponents' line.  So, it doesn't matter how many points you kick, if the other team scored a try and you didn't, they win!

I will be coming up with more ideas later and would like to see others' ideas ...! ;D
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 13 September, 2023, 10:20:37 pm
People, opinions are fine but I think it's quite possible to appreciate both codes and the people who play them.  You'll never catch me complaining that League players don't argue with the ref, or wear shorts that are too tight, or that Union players have hugely silly beards and have usually been South Africans at some stage.  Have to say that I do like the attempts by the Union authorities to speed the game up, partly or maybe even wholly influenced by the time Sexton and Farrell take over kicking.  I'd also like to see a drop goal worth more than a penalty.  And I also have a more bizarre suggestion which is only partly tongue-in-cheek:  the basic premise of Rugby (of either code) is to get the ball across your opponents' line.  So, it doesn't matter how many points you kick, if the other team scored a try and you didn't, they win!

I will be coming up with more ideas later and would like to see others' ideas ...! ;D

Tries have been subject to ever increasing inflation in points of course, from the original meaning that it earned you a try at goal, and it was only goals and penalty goals that counted. I successfully won the sweepstake as a young pso when I went to watch SA vs England when the points per try first went up to 5.

And it seems you don't like the rugby league premise that the one point drop goal can win the tight match?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 13 September, 2023, 11:21:24 pm
I deprecate this modern fashion for referring to a "drop goal". It's a dropped goal. "Barry John dropped a goal."

Edit: I have to refer to the D. Telegraph to prove my point, but...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/09/11/england-drop-goal-rugby-world-cup-fashion-george-ford/ headline.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 14 September, 2023, 12:55:55 am
And it seems you don't like the rugby league premise that the one point drop goal can win the tight match?

Not quite sure how you get that.  As things stand I haven't got any problem with that - but a one-point dropped goal can only win a tight match if the scores are level.  In Union a current 3 point dropped goal can win a tight match when you are behind.  My point was that a dropped goal is much harder to achieve than most penalties and is worthy of more points.

Wow - 3 dropped goals for you there.  9 points at the current rate!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 14 September, 2023, 08:31:21 am
That’s better!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 15 September, 2023, 04:34:39 am
Uruguay: another 'minnow' that came to play!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: John Stonebridge on 15 September, 2023, 01:08:11 pm
Its been good so far of what I've seen of it.

- Wales showing that they will give anybody a game and are as tough as teak
- England showing pleasing persistence and a hitherto unseen ability to adopt a plan B.     
- Scotland showing why there is a fairly firm upper limit to their ambitions (style of play appears easily countered by the really top teams, cant see anything other than 3rd place)

I had a look earlier at the world rankings (cause of much debate with 1-3-5 immediately pre tournament all in the same pool)

https://www.world.rugby/tournaments/rankings/mru

The rankings have now been updated as at 11th Sep and England, Wales & Australia have all moved up two places to leapfrog Argentina & Fiji (the victories for England & Wales were both officially "shocks" in terms of those rankings).  Australia were previously ranked 9th presumably due to the Eddie Jones "Midas-touch-in-reverse" effect. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 15 September, 2023, 01:22:19 pm
Poor old American Samoa still propping up the foundations of the tower of sporting excellence...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 September, 2023, 08:47:23 pm
A bit moist in Toulouse this evening...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 September, 2023, 09:10:10 pm
One would have thought that commentators' preparation for this event would have included the ability to pronounce the team names correctly.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 September, 2023, 09:20:01 pm
I've never seen a goal kicker look as sneeringly supercilious as Damian McKenzie...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 16 September, 2023, 05:17:13 pm
I can't really understand why Wales are mostly wearing black when their opponents are in white tops and pale green shorts...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 16 September, 2023, 05:58:48 pm
I'm sure I've got something better to do than watch this dross...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 16 September, 2023, 06:58:03 pm
I can't really understand why Wales are mostly wearing black when their opponents are in white tops and pale green shorts...

It's possibly to do with sponsorship requirements.  Years ago it might have been because of the level of TV technology.  I was once asked to change a predominately white shirt because it was "too bright" for the cameras.  However, I'm sure things have moved on and anyway, nothing about the current Wales set-up could be considered too bright, I would have thought.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 16 September, 2023, 07:09:19 pm
I do not know why the teams can’t play in their own colours, unless there is a clash. Although do Portugal wear red?

I’d vote for shirt selling as the main reason…
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 16 September, 2023, 07:21:41 pm
I think you would normally be right but I imagine Portugal play in red - their football team certainly does (for versions of red) and their athletes ath in red with green trimmings.  So I imagine a coin was tossed.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 16 September, 2023, 07:22:31 pm
I do not know why the teams can’t play in their own colours, unless there is a clash. Although do Portugal wear red?

I’d vote for shirt selling as the main reason…

Lots of the Portuguese in the crowd did seem to be wearing red, but their players weren't.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 16 September, 2023, 07:31:08 pm
Ah!  I've been checking on text and hadn't seen the visuals.  Yes, shirt sales seems likely, unless there are separate sponsors for the different strips.  I think teams should play in their main colour, wherever possible - except England.  White is the most boring colour imaginable, being one of the definitions of no colour. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 16 September, 2023, 08:28:34 pm
Ireland v New Zealand OB shaping up nicely!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 16 September, 2023, 08:50:51 pm
I need the beeb to help me with maffs obviously.
Wales "struggle" to a 28-8 win.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: farfetched on 16 September, 2023, 09:06:53 pm
The kit rules have been changed to accomodate colour blind TV spectators.

https://www.reuters.com/sports/world-rugby-breaks-with-kit-tradition-assist-colour-blind-fans-2023-09-15 (https://www.reuters.com/sports/world-rugby-breaks-with-kit-tradition-assist-colour-blind-fans-2023-09-15)
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 16 September, 2023, 09:12:10 pm
I need the beeb to help me with maffs obviously.
Wales "struggle" to a 28-8 win.

I thought the result massively flattered Wales - it did seem to be a struggle for a lot of the game.

Edit: there was a spell in which Wales lost 4 of their own line-outs consecutively.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 16 September, 2023, 09:20:20 pm
Ireland have a player yellow-carded since late in the 1st half. If he received his card at 38 minutes, does he come back on at 48 minutes, despite the fact that the first half was about 46 minutes long?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 16 September, 2023, 09:33:25 pm
The kit rules have been changed to accomodate colour blind TV spectators.

https://www.reuters.com/sports/world-rugby-breaks-with-kit-tradition-assist-colour-blind-fans-2023-09-15 (https://www.reuters.com/sports/world-rugby-breaks-with-kit-tradition-assist-colour-blind-fans-2023-09-15)

Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 17 September, 2023, 12:34:13 pm
I need the beeb to help me with maffs obviously.
Wales "struggle" to a 28-8 win.

I thought the result massively flattered Wales - it did seem to be a struggle for a lot of the game.

Edit: there was a spell in which Wales lost 4 of their own line-outs consecutively.

I think that the view suffer from sport reporters who don't necessarily understand the sport. 
Sure, if Portugal were semi pro you would expect any pro team to post a cricket score against them.  But anyone who has watched cup Rugby (of either code) knows that a superior team (say a division higher) can be kept honest for 30-35 minutes of the half by a hard working weaker side.  It's pretty common that the weaker side can compete for much of the time because they know how to play the game, pass, tackle etc.  But in the last 5-10 mins of a half they tire and then ship a couple trys.
Title: Re: Rugby Union World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: De Sisti on 17 September, 2023, 03:23:06 pm
Ireland v New Zealand OB shaping up nicely!
That's a game I'd definitely watch.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 17 September, 2023, 05:59:54 pm
Who is the awful ref for Fiji-Aus?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 17 September, 2023, 06:45:09 pm
YES!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 17 September, 2023, 07:40:46 pm
^that, but bigglier
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 17 September, 2023, 09:39:50 pm
Well, that makes the Wales v Aus game quite a prospect.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 17 September, 2023, 10:32:53 pm
Who is the awful ref for Fiji-Aus?

I'm not sure to what you are referring because I didn't watch the match, or at least not closely.  But in the England-Japan match (watching on a small screen), it seemed to me that both England's 2nd and 4th tries contained elements of forward pass.  But we don't see it the way the man on the pitch does, unless it's glaringly obvious, so it must be very difficult for referees, I think.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 17 September, 2023, 10:57:48 pm
Did England just "edge" past Japan?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 17 September, 2023, 11:13:26 pm
Not by the scoresheet, obviously, but Japan gave them a lot of trouble I think and played some nice stuff.  Or are you alluding to a pundit's comment?!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 18 September, 2023, 12:22:46 am
I posted earlier about how the 'minnows' seem to have turned up ready and willing to play. As I watched the England-Japan game earlier, along with other games involving 'Big' nations, I found myself surprised at how much is wrong with their basics. Nobody seems to be able to catch the ball. for examples. It's almost as if none of them has prepared for the Cup.

I can only see three teams really up for it thus far, France, Ireland and ZAF. And France wobbled badly.
Title: Re: Rugby Union World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: De Sisti on 18 September, 2023, 07:23:38 am
Who is the awful ref for Fiji-Aus?

I'm not sure to what you are referring because I didn't watch the match, or at least not closely.  But in the England-Japan match (watching on a small screen), it seemed to me that both England's 2nd and 4th tries contained elements of forward pass.  But we don't see it the way the man on the pitch does, unless it's glaringly obvious, so it must be very difficult for referees, I think.
The TMO could sort that out?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 18 September, 2023, 09:39:40 am
Do they watch the whole match on the "VAR", or just incidents?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 18 September, 2023, 09:15:52 pm
I assume they watch the whole match, at least now, because they are now ringing up the referee to tell him what he's missed, which I am ambivalent about.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: farfetched on 18 September, 2023, 09:42:54 pm
AFAIK they are only intervening for foul play and the passage of play leading to a try.
Sometimes the ref asks but I guess they review all try situations regardless.

Edit:  by foul play I mean red/yellow card offences
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 18 September, 2023, 09:50:41 pm
The tmo never ruled on forward passes, so not sure how they could do it with the new system.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 18 September, 2023, 10:23:56 pm
The camera really does change the apparent angles, I've not seen a referee behind the game yet, though I've not seen all of the matches.

I was reading the text on the Aus v Fiji game, commentary by an ex RL International, of the view that Aus basically didn't turn up.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 19 September, 2023, 11:37:33 am
That's a little ungracious.  They turned up all right, to be beaten by a better side.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 21 September, 2023, 08:22:41 pm
Crikey! That's one of the best tries I've seen for years. Mercurial stuff.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 21 September, 2023, 08:47:14 pm
Good grief! France are playing outrageous rugby - and it's all coming off.

If you are not watching this match, you should be.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 21 September, 2023, 11:28:02 pm
I watched it for a while, then fell asleep when France had reached 500 points, or something.  I know there are arguments against, but does anyone else feel queasy about these huge thrashings of minnows?  I'm musing about the possibilities of minnows being put into separate groups so at least their supporters, who have travelled and paid for accommodation just as the others have, could see some games they have a stake in and some closer encounters.  Certainly, that would pit the better sides against each other earlier than they would like but they have to beat them to win eventually anyway.  I expect the bean-counters will have worked out what's the most profitable way and that's how it will continue but I actually find it a bit distasteful.

 Or maybe we could have a rule that says people who are no longer good enough to turn out for the All-Blacks or South Africa have to be evenly spread out amongst the minnows.  That way, Scotland would still get theirs and Namibia and other teams could have a few! 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 22 September, 2023, 11:31:39 am
I know what you mean, but it happens in "real" rugby as well.

I have mentioned elsewhere that my college team was beaten 108 - 0 in a match in the 1970s, when a try was only 3 points. The Daily Telegraph published a brief report about it, because of its one-sided nature. I have to confess that I wasn't playing (it sounds as though none of the others was either). I was the following week, when we were beaten 66-0, so my presence made a difference of 42 points.

There were some moves played in that game (France v Namibia) which I think would have torn any team apart. As the pundits said a few times, "How do you defend against that?"

It seems that Dupont is out for at least two games, with a fractured cheekbone, after a head clash which saw the Namibian captain receive a red card. That is a great pity because he's a wonderful player.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 22 September, 2023, 04:36:38 pm
Good grief! France are playing outrageous rugby - and it's all coming off.

If you are not watching this match, you should be.

GIT!

Not home until tomorrow evening chiz >:(
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 22 September, 2023, 06:27:30 pm
Lots of thud & blunder in the Argentina - Samoa match.

Edit: and is Samoa really pronounced "Sarmur". as the commentator seems to think?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 September, 2023, 06:48:47 pm
The stress is on the first syllable, if you're Samoan. But if you're Samoan, you also know where to put the unwritten letters and the glottal stops and so on.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 22 September, 2023, 10:32:04 pm
@peter, RL tried that about 15 years ago.  Pool of death where the top three go through and then the other pools top out to make up the other qualifiers (it was league so there was some additional complication natch).

To be fair there have been less one sided massacres than there were back when england won it.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 22 September, 2023, 11:21:17 pm
I'd forgotten that!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 23 September, 2023, 02:23:37 pm
Portugal wow
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 23 September, 2023, 06:31:36 pm
Just caught the last 5 minutes or so of the England - Chile match.

Isn't Marcus Smith a bit small for the average international fullback?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: citoyen on 23 September, 2023, 08:13:56 pm
First 10 minutes of SA v Ireland has been more exciting than the whole of the England game.

ETA: also, the referee is superb - you've got to have balls of steel to keep control of a game like this.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 23 September, 2023, 08:48:14 pm
Bloody hell! I'm exhausted watching that first half. I'm not sure I have the energy for another 40 minutes...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 23 September, 2023, 09:46:16 pm
Hmm... I wonder about that penalty kick with so few minutes left. Perhaps a kick to the corner and keep SA under pressure.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 23 September, 2023, 09:49:36 pm
Well done Ireland! Close, but deserved in my view.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 23 September, 2023, 09:50:23 pm
Well fairly clear why they lost that...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 23 September, 2023, 09:51:07 pm
Brilliant from Ireland. What a match
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: citoyen on 23 September, 2023, 09:51:54 pm
Hmm... I wonder about that penalty kick with so few minutes left. Perhaps a kick to the corner and keep SA under pressure.

Thought it took a lot of pressure off them - meant SA were left needing two scores to win.

Anyway, what a game that was. Two proper heavyweights giving it everything. Bloody well done, Ireland.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Clare on 23 September, 2023, 10:11:14 pm
The stress is on the first syllable, if you're Samoan. But if you're Samoan, you also know where to put the unwritten letters and the glottal stops and so on.

Over here it is Sar-moa with a long o as in door. Emphasis on the Sar.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 September, 2023, 10:27:21 pm
The stress is on the first syllable, if you're Samoan. But if you're Samoan, you also know where to put the unwritten letters and the glottal stops and so on.

Over here it is Sar-moa with a long o as in door. Emphasis on the Sar.
That would match my memory. But it was, erm, 26 years ago, so memory could be fallible. Pronunciation could even change! And just for clarity, unwritten letters and glottal stops refers to the language generally not "Samoa" the word itself.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 24 September, 2023, 04:12:32 pm
That's a little ungracious.  They turned up all right, to be beaten by a better side.

As I said, I didn't watch it, I was merely repeating the opinion of others
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 24 September, 2023, 04:14:36 pm
@peter, RL tried that about 15 years ago.  Pool of death where the top three go through and then the other pools top out to make up the other qualifiers (it was league so there was some additional complication natch).

To be fair there have been less one sided massacres than there were back when england won it.

I seem to remember at one world cup England putting over 100 points on Kenya, seemed a little unfair
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 24 September, 2023, 07:39:14 pm
Yes, it doesn't seem to have encouraged Kenya very much, does it! 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 24 September, 2023, 09:06:33 pm
Am I the only one who thinks that there is a level of anti Farrell snobbery in the punditry?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 24 September, 2023, 09:42:39 pm
Not sure - I watch with the sound off.  But I do wonder why sides that Eddie Jones coaches give away so many penalties.  England used to give thme away like sweets, even when they were winning.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 24 September, 2023, 09:43:14 pm
Am I the only one who thinks that there is a level of anti Farrell snobbery in the punditry?

Yes
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 24 September, 2023, 09:50:53 pm
Am I the only one who thinks that there is a level of anti Farrell snobbery in the punditry?

Yes

🤣
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 24 September, 2023, 10:00:23 pm
 ;D
On both accounts.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Basil on 24 September, 2023, 10:22:18 pm
Went to the pub to watch tonight's game as it's always better in company.
Bugger.  Most of the guys are in France at the game, one other is dog sitting in Birmingham and another has covid. Only two of us turned out.   :-\

Bar staff person. "Sorry bois, just phoned the boss and he told me to close."

Watched it on my own on our dining room telly.  :(
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 24 September, 2023, 10:27:00 pm
That's a damned shame, Basil.

I missed it as I was at the local theatre watching Fascinating Aida. Very, very good, but I shall be hunting highlights very soon.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 24 September, 2023, 10:40:51 pm
I just got home from my local pub, where they had assumed I would turn up and reserved a table for me right in front of the big screen.

I went in the hope we might win. That result was certainly not what I expected, nor such an inspirational young captain. Summed up by the sight of so many alleged supporters of Oz leaving the ground early.

The pub closes in a couple of weeks so it can be torn down for a new Lidl.

As for Owen Farrell, it's not snobbery. He is an arrogant, entitled dirty player.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 24 September, 2023, 10:47:10 pm
The ITV news said that it was the biggest Welsh victory ever over Australia. I was there for a previous one of those - 1973 in Cardiff, 24 - 0, and the first time that the Pontypool Front Row were picked en masse.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 24 September, 2023, 10:53:08 pm
I agree with Steph re Farrell. I was saying as much several years ago, if I can be arsed to look.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 24 September, 2023, 11:05:39 pm
I just got home from my local pub, where they had assumed I would turn up and reserved a table for me right in front of the big screen.

I went in the hope we might win. That result was certainly not what I expected, nor such an inspirational young captain. Summed up by the sight of so many alleged supporters of Oz leaving the ground early.

The pub closes in a couple of weeks so it can be torn down for a new Lidl.

As for Owen Farrell, it's not snobbery. He is an arrogant, entitled dirty player.

Sorry to hear about the pub.  Money wins.  >:(

And Farrell  >:( >:(
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 24 September, 2023, 11:15:13 pm
I agree with Steph re Farrell. I was saying as much several years ago, if I can be arsed to look.

I found this from Basil:

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=114735.msg2468759#msg2468759

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRBLS_vTBug&ab_channel=GuinnessSixNations

3 minutes or so in.

 ;D

But there were earlier examples too - one from 2015 I think.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 25 September, 2023, 12:53:01 am
Was that him trying to pull the Irish player's head off after one try?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 25 September, 2023, 01:10:07 am
To return to the Wales-Australia game, it's come to something when this (let's be honest) not particularly spectacular Welsh team has practically reduced Australia to the level of Namibia or Rumania.  Brighton are doing something similar in the Premier League of round ball.  Sheffield United not so much ...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 25 September, 2023, 04:28:00 am
Not managed to watch any of the tournament so far but WTF has happened to Australia?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: PaulF on 25 September, 2023, 06:20:52 am
Not managed to watch any of the tournament so far but WTF has happened to Australia?

They got Jones’s ;D
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 25 September, 2023, 11:35:24 am
Their Jones didn't keep up with ours
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 25 September, 2023, 12:13:07 pm
Was that him trying to pull the Irish player's head off after one try?

No. The Irish player had fallen out of the back of the ruck and was trying to return to an onside position, but Farrell, in a prone position himself, grabbed the Irishman’s leg and wouldn’t let go. Eventually, after punching Farrell a few time, the Irishman staggered away anyway, wearing Farrell like a gigantic clown shoe.

Edit: the referee gave Farrell a talking to and awarded a penalty against him, but Farrell argued back in a most un-rugby like fashion.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Flâneur on 25 September, 2023, 12:46:25 pm
Am I the only one who thinks that there is a level of anti Farrell snobbery in the punditry?

What would this snobbery be based on?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 25 September, 2023, 01:12:34 pm
Was that him trying to pull the Irish player's head off after one try?

No. The Irish player had fallen out of the back of the ruck and was trying to return to an onside position, but Farrell, in a prone position himself, grabbed the Irishman’s leg and wouldn’t let go. Eventually, after punching Farrell a few time, the Irishman staggered away anyway, wearing Farrell like a gigantic clown shoe.

Edit: the referee gave Farrell a talking to and awarded a penalty against him, but Farrell argued back in a most un-rugby like fashion.

No. Not that bit

Look at the video at 4.08
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 25 September, 2023, 01:22:56 pm
Am I the only one who thinks that there is a level of anti Farrell snobbery in the punditry?

What would this snobbery be based on?

I don't know which "pundits" are referred to but I imagine they will be the usual collection of public school ex-internationals.  The current England team is similarly riddled, always has been (like the Welsh in the past).  Even Vunipola who is a New Zealand Tongan, went to Millfield.  Golden boy Henry Arundell has not long left Harrow.  Owen Farrell is from Wigan and was a league player until his teens.  This may all be irrelevant but I think that unlikely.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 25 September, 2023, 01:35:34 pm
@Steph - I see what you mean. There was an unnecessary movement with his left arm, but it wasn't clear from the angle what he actually did and how much force there was.

Regarding anti-Farrell sentiment, I've held it for a long time because I always thought he was a dirty player and he doesn't seem to have improved. I though exactly the same about Stuart Hogg for Scotland: talented guys who spoiled their game with deliberate foul play. Until Peter mentioned it just now, I had no idea what Farrell's background was, other than that his dad is clearly a very successful head coach for Ireland. If the television pundits hold the same opinion, maybe it's because he's a dirty player and that his background has nothing whatever to do with it.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 25 September, 2023, 01:42:07 pm
Oh, yes, that's quite possible.  But, as I said, I don't know what the complaint was based on so was just wagging my King Charles's Head!  Farrell's dad, Farrell, was a very successful player of both codes.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 25 September, 2023, 01:44:07 pm
His tackling has been, interesting… Armless, even.

I think his game choices are limited, and this was shown up by Ford being in his place.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 25 September, 2023, 02:03:53 pm
Yes, exactly.

Ford: calm, almost flawless kicking, responds to the ref.

Farrell: 'interesting ' tackling, which has resulted in a red card already. Argues with the ref. Hectors the ref about play by the other team. Clearly has a massive ego, but then so does Faf de Klerk. He, however, doesn't push back against the ref like that.

What is perceived  to be 'anti-Farrell snobbery' in my view is likely to be a consensus among the ref community: "Oh. Him again"

The England team are superb, as individuals. They don't yet mesh as a team. Ford does that, Farrell doesn't. More importantly, the next set of matches after the Pool are going to be hard-fought knock-out games. Can England risk relying on a previous red-card player in such a crucial position, especially with the TMP being so influential?

With regard to that incident I highlighted from the video, that was a high tackle. It was actually his actions on the ground that I spotted. He still has his arm around the Irish player's throat, and you can see his head tilt backwards after the try. I was reminded of the Jamie Joseph deliberate stamp to the back of Kyran Bracken's knee many years ago. Deliberate, off the ball/stoppage foul play intended to injure.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 25 September, 2023, 02:05:31 pm
On a very different note, Pelegrini.

Italian extraction, obvs. From Sevenoaks. Playing for Tonga.

Intrigued!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Flâneur on 25 September, 2023, 02:28:01 pm
Thanks. Snobbery would indicate there's something in his background that doesn't fit but most of the suggestions I'm seeing are individual traits such as attitude, reliability and of course the tackling  ::-)

AFAIK Jones made Farrell captain and the pair seemed pretty loyal to each other so I do wonder if some of it is settling of scores from la ancien regime

Owen Farrell is from Wigan and was a league player until his teens.

George Ford's background is similar (but with some public school thrown in later).
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fimm on 25 September, 2023, 02:35:03 pm
Me: I'm going to phone my Mum.
Husband: check the rugby before you do.
Me: Wales <whatever it was at the time>, Australia <less than that>. Maybe I won't ring them right now.
Later:
Me, on phone to Mum: I was going to phone you earlier but I waited until the match had ended.
Mum: you should have rung, it was boring!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: John Stonebridge on 25 September, 2023, 03:12:12 pm
Watched both the Scotland and Wales games with friends in Bridge of Allan yesterday.  Lots of ill fitting kilts and legs that would have been better not to have seen the light of day.   

I'm now finding myself drawn to the world rugby rankings which I've learned are updated weekly on a Monday.  Im fascinated by the methodology, I'm like a moth to a flame. 

The latest version is here https://www.world.rugby/tournaments/rankings/mru

Australia down to 10th and with very little room to improve as even a thumping victory v Portugal wont achieve a great deal. 

Ireland seriously out in front as world #1

Wales & England breathing down Scotland's neck and I imagine that both will overtake the Scots before the World Cup is out, both have a reasonable path to the last four. 

A couple of very serious quarter finals in NZ v. Ire and Fra v. Sth Africa loom large on 14th / 15th Oct.   I shall have to make sure I can watch. 



 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Psychler on 25 September, 2023, 05:05:39 pm

Owen Farrell is from Wigan and was a league player until his teens.

George Ford's background is similar (but with some public school thrown in later).

Ford and Farrell both went to the same school, St George's Harpenden, as did Maro Itoje.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Psychler on 25 September, 2023, 05:11:17 pm
Ford: calm, almost flawless kicking, responds to the ref.

Farrell: 'interesting ' tackling, which has resulted in a red card already. Argues with the ref. Hectors the ref about play by the other team. Clearly has a massive ego, but then so does Faf de Klerk. He, however, doesn't push back against the ref like that.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/my-favourite-player-nigel-owens-reveals-his-five-top-current-rugby-players/
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 25 September, 2023, 06:46:39 pm
Moving away from Farrell for a moment...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2023/sep/25/rugby-world-cup-2023-wallabies-exit-fallout-loss-wales

Seems to be a bit of an obituary to Australian rugby. Probably an exaggeration, but written by an Aussie journalist.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 25 September, 2023, 07:27:32 pm

Owen Farrell is from Wigan and was a league player until his teens.

George Ford's background is similar (but with some public school thrown in later).

Ford and Farrell both went to the same school, St George's Harpenden, as did Maro Itoje.

Yes, I knew that.  George is from Oldham but went to Rishworth School near Ripponden.  It's private and as close as you can get to a public school round here and was (I think) in the Headmasters' Conference.  We do have an embarrassment of riches at stand-off at the moment.  Well, an embarrassment, at least!  My worry is that picking Farrell in a needle match might rsult in playing some of the game with 14 men.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 25 September, 2023, 09:06:55 pm
Exactly my point
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 27 September, 2023, 06:01:15 pm
The Uruguayan scrum half has just scored a try worthy of Mr. Edwards himself.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 27 September, 2023, 07:22:49 pm
It was indeed a thing of beauty - unlike their kit!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 28 September, 2023, 08:03:13 pm
Settling down to watch Japan v Samoa...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 29 September, 2023, 07:33:36 pm
Hmm... They are trying to pretend that Italy have a chance of beating New Zealand.

There are some words I would be very happy to eat in a couple of hours' time.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 29 September, 2023, 08:24:10 pm
I don't think I'm going to have to.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 29 September, 2023, 08:38:43 pm
Two or three days ago the Italian coach said that other teams have caught NZ up.  Italy doesn't appear to be one of them. 
(click to show/hide)

Edit:  BBC pundits finally caught up with my comment about the Italy coach ...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 29 September, 2023, 09:01:27 pm
Which were? (Sorry, I missed your bons mots...)
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 29 September, 2023, 09:09:19 pm
Easily done.  They start my post.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 29 September, 2023, 09:14:51 pm
Oo I say... !
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 29 September, 2023, 09:20:27 pm
That was just silly from Italy.  All they've done is annoy NZ.  Like hitting Michael Holding for four!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 30 September, 2023, 07:44:28 pm
Flippin' 'eck! A rugby match lasts about 90 minutes, when one takes half-time and stoppage time into consideration. Why does ITV devote more than 3 hours' broadcasting time to each match? Just cut out the bloody prattle!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 30 September, 2023, 09:38:31 pm
Scene: the 5-metre line.

Occasion: attacking penalty.

How is it an advantage for the attacking side to kick for a line-out, rather than running the penalty? The lineout tends to result in a maul. Running the ball would result in a maul. But it seems to me that there is a risk with the lineout that the attacking team might bugger it up and lose the lineout.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: mcshroom on 30 September, 2023, 10:25:06 pm
You suck their entire forward line into defending the lineout so there should be more gaps in the backs
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 30 September, 2023, 10:30:25 pm
Also, if you run it, you run the risk of handling errors preventing you from getting as far forward as the lineout will put you.  I think handling errors are far more prevalent than line-out mistakes.  It has taken coaches over a hundred years to work this out.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: toontra on 30 September, 2023, 10:37:37 pm
Is there any enjoyment in watching Scotland beat Romania 80-0, England beat Chile 71-0 or indeed France beating Namibia 96-0?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 30 September, 2023, 10:40:28 pm
See earlier replies! 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: toontra on 30 September, 2023, 10:50:37 pm
See earlier replies!

I read those but they don't address my question - does anyone get enjoyment watching these games?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 30 September, 2023, 11:02:05 pm
I have to say, "No."  But I suppose (although I haven't watched most of the no-hopers) that there is always the hope that a surprise might be sprung but that quickly evaporates.  I have to say, though, that I thoroughly enjoyed watching the no-hopers Wales walloping the Australian/Samoans.  And I'd have no trouble at all watching South Africa, France or New Zealand getting thrashed by a huge score.  So I suppose it comes back to what good it does for those "small" nations.

But (in short!) - no.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 30 September, 2023, 11:03:27 pm
I will answer as best I can


I have just watched Scotland spank Romania, and watched the other games as well. From an outside viewpoint, they look like a complete waste of everyone's time. From the inside, it is different.

What has impressed me is that every one of the 'minnows' has come fully intending to play. They get to experience a world cup, many of them find their game rising to the occasion. I haven't seen one game yet where said 'minnow' has stopped fighting for points, even Italy V NZ. It lets people in their own countries see what the game is about. It spreads the game wider. It gives the players a sense of pride and accomplishment.

This is a world cup. Don't let it become an insular private party.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: toontra on 30 September, 2023, 11:16:29 pm
Interesting.  Yes - clearly there are wider aspects than just the relative abilities of the two teams on the day.  Personally though, if a team is down by 40 without reply at half time and don't look like offering much resistance I don't bother watching the rest.  It's just difficult to get engaged in the way that competitive sport can engage you.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 01 October, 2023, 03:43:55 am
Italy managed two very good tries v New Zealand, which I think demonstrates progress.  Ok, the pundits were trying to instil some life into a game which I think any moderately seasoned observer will have realised wasn’t going to be much of a contest.

One of those tries conformed to a “type” which seems to have become relatively commonplace: winger launches himself high in the air and succeeds in grounding the ball a fraction of a second before being clattered into the corner flag. I don’t recall seeing tries quite like that in the past, and now everyone is getting in on the act. It seems to me to be an amazing skill.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 01 October, 2023, 07:08:22 pm
Scotland converted every one of their 12 tries yesterday, Ben Healy kicking 11 of them. I don't know what the record is for conversions in a single match, but he never looked like missing.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 01 October, 2023, 07:20:42 pm
His tackling has been, interesting… Armless, even.

I think his game choices are limited, and this was shown up by Ford being in his place.

Exactly, and when he gets found out he acts like petulant toddler
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 01 October, 2023, 07:23:21 pm
I have to say, "No."  But I suppose (although I haven't watched most of the no-hopers) that there is always the hope that a surprise might be sprung but that quickly evaporates.  I have to say, though, that I thoroughly enjoyed watching the no-hopers Wales walloping the Australian/Samoans.  And I'd have no trouble at all watching South Africa, France or New Zealand getting thrashed by a huge score.  So I suppose it comes back to what good it does for those "small" nations.

But (in short!) - no.

Do you now include Portugal  in those no hoper's, or Australia?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 01 October, 2023, 08:42:11 pm
I think before the start of the WC we would have put Japan in the "no hope" pile, which shows what the small sides can do.
But, no, those games are not worth watching.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 01 October, 2023, 09:10:25 pm
I have to say, "No."  But I suppose (although I haven't watched most of the no-hopers) that there is always the hope that a surprise might be sprung but that quickly evaporates.  I have to say, though, that I thoroughly enjoyed watching the no-hopers Wales walloping the Australian/Samoans.  And I'd have no trouble at all watching South Africa, France or New Zealand getting thrashed by a huge score.  So I suppose it comes back to what good it does for those "small" nations.

But (in short!) - no.

Do you now include Portugal  in those no hoper's, or Australia?

?? So who's walloped Portugal, then - I must have missed that.  Fairly acceptable scoreline between them and Australia, I would have thought.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 01 October, 2023, 10:35:46 pm
How one's heart bleeds for Australia! They've finished their matches and are in second place in the group, but have to wait until next Sunday for the Fiji v Portugal match to see whether they are overtaken or not. And of course they are going to be because Fiji only needs 1 point.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 02 October, 2023, 06:02:24 am
I have to say, "No."  But I suppose (although I haven't watched most of the no-hopers) that there is always the hope that a surprise might be sprung but that quickly evaporates.  I have to say, though, that I thoroughly enjoyed watching the no-hopers Wales walloping the Australian/Samoans.  And I'd have no trouble at all watching South Africa, France or New Zealand getting thrashed by a huge score.  So I suppose it comes back to what good it does for those "small" nations.

But (in short!) - no.

Do you now include Portugal  in those no hoper's, or Australia?

?? So who's walloped Portugal, then - I must have missed that.  Fairly acceptable scoreline between them and Australia, I would have thought.

This the point isn't it, ahead of the tournament you'd have put Portugal, mentally, into the no hope category in that group.  What I found, by not ignoring it was a highly engaging game that a nation who has won the WRC more than once struggled to win convincingly
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 05 October, 2023, 08:06:31 pm
Uruguay v NZ.

Decent start by Uruguay.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 05 October, 2023, 09:16:38 pm
In the face (ha!) of some very stiff opposition, I'd like to nominate the Uruguay tight-head prop as the owner of Best Beard for this World Cup.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Diego-arbelo.jpg)
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 06 October, 2023, 12:34:41 am
Tchah! – S Geschke, yesterday
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 06 October, 2023, 11:09:26 am
If a tie-break is required, he’d win with the eyebrow - singular.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 06 October, 2023, 03:37:32 pm
In the face (ha!) of some very stiff opposition, I'd like to nominate the Uruguay tight-head prop as the owner of Best Beard for this World Cup.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Diego-arbelo.jpg)
Can you write to him, enclosing a signed photograph of your good self and a Tilley hat?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 06 October, 2023, 08:03:29 pm
Not going terribly well for plucky little Italy so far :'(
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 06 October, 2023, 08:17:31 pm
I think France have been the most creative attacking side I've seen - even without Dupont. They could well be the overall winners.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 06 October, 2023, 09:33:31 pm
Are the French crowd singing "Eau, Jeremy Corbyn"?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 06 October, 2023, 09:38:19 pm
Are the French crowd singing "Eau, Jeremy Corbyn"?

No.  No, they are not.  The tune is “Seven Nation Army” by now-defunct USAnian popular beat combo The White Stripes.

Consolation try for plucky little Italy.  Only 52-7 down now :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 07 October, 2023, 04:24:24 pm
Let's have Georgia in the "6" Nations instead of Italy.  Italy have had their chance to "catch up" and it hasn't happened.  And all of Georgia's team today against a hugely unconvincing Welsh side were from ... Georgia.  And if this isn't a hugely unconvincing Welsh side, then Georgia are definitely worth a place.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 07 October, 2023, 05:23:13 pm
Wait a second?  England behind to plucky little Samoa :o
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 07 October, 2023, 05:26:59 pm
Ooops.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 07 October, 2023, 05:39:12 pm
Maybe Georgia could replace England?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 07 October, 2023, 05:39:38 pm
England pretty fortunate to be only 6 points behind, methinks.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 07 October, 2023, 05:40:07 pm
Maybe Georgia could replace England?

Don't the two countries share a saint?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 07 October, 2023, 05:43:03 pm
Yes - and I think he was Turkish!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: toontra on 07 October, 2023, 06:28:34 pm
Farrell - what an idiot  :hand:
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 07 October, 2023, 06:28:48 pm
Farrell!  You utter tool :facepalm:
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 07 October, 2023, 06:29:21 pm
Wow.  Out of time! Nil Point.  Not a tricky angle either.  Mind you he has just becomes England RU all time points highest scorer.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: toontra on 07 October, 2023, 06:31:32 pm
Wilkinson started it with his extended "wishy-washy" hands pre-kick routine and things have only got worse.  A very good new rule IMO.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 07 October, 2023, 06:48:25 pm
Well, I don't see either England or Wales getting past the quarter-final.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 07 October, 2023, 06:49:08 pm
(click to show/hide)

Quite a tackle by Danny Care tho'.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 07 October, 2023, 07:07:20 pm
Wilkinson started it with his extended "wishy-washy" hands pre-kick routine and things have only got worse.  A very good new rule IMO.

Certainly.  Is it game-wide or just for the World Cup? (I can imagine the TV company protesting at the time it takes for nothing to happen, although I suppose they could have run commercials during Farrell's preparation).  And let's not forget the other major culprit, Saint Sexton.  He takes as long as Farrell, though we won't have to put up with that for much longer.  I wish we could say the same about Farrell. 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 07 October, 2023, 08:02:33 pm
Have Scotland changed their anthem, or did the French just play it wrong?

I didn't see who the offical crooner was, but the last four notes to the words "to think again" has always had a falling whole tone between "to" and "think", giving it a very modal sound. I'm pretty sure that tonight it was a falling semitone.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 07 October, 2023, 08:05:08 pm
Wilkinson started it with his extended "wishy-washy" hands pre-kick routine and things have only got worse.  A very good new rule IMO.

Certainly.  Is it game-wide or just for the World Cup? (I can imagine the TV company protesting at the time it takes for nothing to happen, although I suppose they could have run commercials during Farrell's preparation).

Everywhere, AIUI.

Quote from: Planet Rugby
Law 8.8d Conversion: (The kicker) takes the kick within 90 seconds (playing time) from the time the try was awarded, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed.

Law 8.21 Penalty Kick: The kick must be taken within 60 seconds (playing time) from the time the team indicated their intention to do so, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed, and a scrum is awarded.

Ireland not wasting any time, I see.  Begorrah and, moreover, bejaysus.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 07 October, 2023, 08:17:24 pm
Can someone please let me know: is it possible for the current game to manufacture a result that will eliminate South Africa?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 07 October, 2023, 08:34:18 pm
Can someone please let me know: is it possible for the current game to manufacture a result that will eliminate South Africa?

A mere academic question, I fear.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: philip on 07 October, 2023, 08:40:13 pm
Can someone please let me know: is it possible for the current game to manufacture a result that will eliminate South Africa?
Yes, a big Scotland win, with Ireland losing but scoring a bonus point would do. Three teams on 15 points, Scotland top on points difference (to break the 3-way tie), Ireland second by virtue of beating SA (to break the remaining 2-way tie).
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 07 October, 2023, 08:41:49 pm
Quote of the tournament:

Quote
Every time I see players like that, I'm so glad I've retired.

Brian O'Driscoll (I think, although it may have been Rory Best), referring to Andrew Porter, the Irish prop.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 07 October, 2023, 09:08:13 pm
Woooooo, handbags!

Edit: Scotlandland lucky not to be down to 13 men.  Rufty-tufty hairy-arsed prop forwards pushing an opposing player over the shitvertising hoardings is surely against the rules?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 07 October, 2023, 09:11:33 pm
Seriously?  A trip?   :facepalm:

Anyway back to the annihilation...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 07 October, 2023, 09:23:14 pm
According to that Wikipedia that they have now, Andrew Porter can squat-lift 350kg. That's a lot.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 07 October, 2023, 09:36:12 pm
Good grief!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 07 October, 2023, 09:57:10 pm
Well, Scotlandrica actually won the second half, but Andy Farrell's changes allowed him to know which is his best XV.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 07 October, 2023, 10:01:07 pm
Hmm... Ireland play New Zealand. That's not easy.

Having looked at the draw, maybe England & Wales do have chances to progress to the semis. Wales ought to beat Argentina or Japan, and England ought to beat Fiji. I fancy France to beat South Africa.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 07 October, 2023, 10:09:14 pm
I wonder if the French will risk Dupont?  If not, then I would expect South Africa to win.  But then, SA didn't pick de Klerk in their last match - is he injured, too?  I think picking Dupont would be seriously irresponsible, if he really has had an operation for a broken cheekbone - really fou.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 07 October, 2023, 10:16:44 pm
I've been very impressed by France, avec ou sans Dupont.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 07 October, 2023, 10:22:52 pm
It's hard to call:  when they beat New Zealand in the opening match, they had Dupont.  Since then, New Zealand have dusted themselves off and ended up as the groups's top scorers - easily.  It's certainly a bit mouth-watering!  I think I'd have like Ireland v New Zealand to be a bit further in.  They are both in the top 4, rather than 2 0f the last 8.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: T42 on 08 October, 2023, 08:20:13 am
Allez les Bleus! made me laugh, les Bleus being Samoan.  ;D

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/07/england-samoa-rugby-world-cup-match-report
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 08 October, 2023, 05:15:42 pm
Rocky Clarke, pundit:-

"You could not have threaded that pass through a needle any better."

I predict a long future.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 08 October, 2023, 06:39:14 pm
In one game a day or two ago, there was a review of a penalty which took a bit of time. In the end, the refereeing committee decided that it was just a penalty and not a yellow card. One of the morons on the commentary team continued to speak as though the offender might have his non-existent yellow card upgraded to a red whilst the player concerned just got on with his game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 08 October, 2023, 07:01:10 pm
I think it's time to introduce mandatory head injury checks for pundits!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 08 October, 2023, 07:08:26 pm
You'd end up with no commentators at all!

A long time ago (Rob Andrew's debut, 1986) a friend of mine gave me a ticket for the press box at Twickenham, England v Wales. I found myself sitting between reporters from the Western Mail and Thames Valley Radio. Both these guys are serving strong rugby-playing areas - most of South Wales and some of the top London clubs. I was astonished that neither of them had a clue about the reasons for the refereeing decisions and I spent most of the match having to provide a commentary just for them.

This was quite frustrating because sitting a couple of rows behind me were Gerald Davies and John Taylor, with whom I would have much rather had a conversation.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 08 October, 2023, 07:56:39 pm
While part of me is rooting for plucky little Portugal I really want Fiji to win just so Australia have to go home early :demon:
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Basil on 08 October, 2023, 08:39:48 pm
While part of me is rooting for plucky little Portugal I really want Fiji to win just so Australia have to go home early :demon:
:thumbsup:

But what on earth has happened to Fiji 🇫🇯?
I'm enjoying this game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 08 October, 2023, 08:48:36 pm
This could go either way.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Basil on 08 October, 2023, 09:17:36 pm
Fiji.  "There are 16 too many players on the field."
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 08 October, 2023, 09:53:46 pm
That'll do! Portugal get their win and Fiji go through.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Basil on 08 October, 2023, 09:55:59 pm
That'll do! Portugal get their win and Fiji go through.
Excellent result all round.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 08 October, 2023, 09:56:46 pm
Jolly well done by ye Portingals.  And jolly well done Fiji too, for sending Australia home :demon:
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 08 October, 2023, 09:57:51 pm
When do we get to witness England balls it all up v Fiji? ;)
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 08 October, 2023, 10:00:01 pm
I hope Eddie Jones didn't run out of Mogadon during that game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 08 October, 2023, 10:13:40 pm
When do we get to witness England balls it all up v Fiji? ;)

Next Sunday afternoon, I think.

Edit: 16:00.  In Marseille, if you happen to be passing.

Note to self: set the Infernal Device to record it.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 08 October, 2023, 11:47:46 pm
Could be a 'Six nations' semi finals...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 09 October, 2023, 12:01:21 am
While part of me is rooting for plucky little Portugal I really want Fiji to win just so Australia have to go home early :demon:
You got what you wanted, on all accounts.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 09 October, 2023, 01:05:22 am
While part of me is rooting for plucky little Portugal I really want Fiji to win just so Australia have to go home early :demon:
You got what you wanted, on all accounts.

Troo, dat.  These “bonus points” confuse me :P
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 09 October, 2023, 10:17:23 am
When do we get to witness England balls it all up v Fiji? ;)

The day after Wales will absolutely thrash Argentina.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 09 October, 2023, 10:40:47 am
When do we get to witness England balls it all up v Fiji? ;)

The day after Wales will absolutely thrash Argentina.

Ha! I'm sorry to say that two of the semifinalsts will be much weaker than the other two. Even if England and Wales do progress, it seems to me that they are so far behind NZ, Ireland, SA and France that it could be an embarrassment.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 09 October, 2023, 12:34:53 pm
I for one look forward to something akin to the 2007 third-place playoff, when Argentina destroyed France in Paris.  Having already beaten them in the opening pool game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 09 October, 2023, 05:56:44 pm
That Fiji - Portugal game last night was the best of the tournament so far. 

Bets for Portugal relegating Italy from the 6-nations?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 09 October, 2023, 06:23:23 pm
My preference is for Ireland to win, followed, I think, by France. I'd rather a Northern Hemisphere side won it, but I'm afraid my realism overcomes my tribal Welshness on this occasion. I think it's very unlikely that Wales will be able to string together consecutive performances to overcome any of the best 4 sides, and if (for example) they beat Argentina and then have to play New Zealand or Ireland, I doubt very much that they could win such a game without one of the opponents being sent off, and that would devalue it for me. I think it was a great shame that England didn't in the Women's RWC as 15 Kiwis managed to over come 14 Englishwomen - just. The sending off was entirely justified by the on-field events, but it just spoiled the final as a spectacle, and the best team came second.

But I echo the congratulations for Portugal. It was possibly the most exciting game, but I wouldn't call it the best. Too many mistakes by both sides.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 09 October, 2023, 06:29:23 pm
That Fiji - Portugal game last night was the best of the tournament so far. 

Bets for Portugal relegating Italy from the 6-nations?

They need a 2-division league.

Div 1: France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales
Div 2. England, Georgia, Italy, Portugal

:demon:
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Basil on 09 October, 2023, 07:11:07 pm
That Fiji - Portugal game last night was the best of the tournament so far. 

Bets for Portugal relegating Italy from the 6-nations?

Probably quite difficult.  Corporate contracts and stuff.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 09 October, 2023, 07:45:24 pm
 :demon: aside, in RL they had a 4 nation format with PR, every other year a PI or European side got a chance at the big three.
It sounds better than it works out to, as you want to build rivalries, history and give teams time to grow.  It wasn't that long ago that Scotland were no better than Italy. 
I think it would make more sense to add Portugal and Argentina (based in Spain) and give it a good 10 years to settle.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: mcshroom on 09 October, 2023, 09:05:23 pm
Argentina seem to have settled into the old Tri-Nations very well, and I can see them getting much stronger with that much exposure to the other three.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 09 October, 2023, 09:10:03 pm
When Argentina were on the verge of joining the big boys they said they’d rather join in the European competition coz all their top players were already plying their trade in Europe.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 09 October, 2023, 09:30:08 pm

But I echo the congratulations for Portugal. It was possibly the most exciting game, but I wouldn't call it the best. Too many mistakes by both sides.

Agree, I meant best as in most spectacular/exciting/skin of the teeth etc, not necessarily best pure rugby on display - that would probably be reserved for a one-sided thrashing of some kind
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: PaulF on 09 October, 2023, 09:39:00 pm
That Fiji - Portugal game last night was the best of the tournament so far. 

Bets for Portugal relegating Italy from the 6-nations?

They need a 2-division league.

Div 1: France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales
Div 2. England, Georgia, Italy, Portugal

:demon:

Seriously?

You think England are good enough for the second tier?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 09 October, 2023, 10:18:36 pm
Some of the most dazzling rugby I saw was in the France - Namibia game. The most emphatic drubbing of a Good Side has to have been Ireland's win over Scotland. I'm not sure which if the Irish players I rate as the most dangerous - it's a team full of superstars. But I think the winger James Lowe is one of the most exciting players I've seen in recent years. He combines strength and speed in a way that very few players have managed. Jonah Lomu was the best of these, I think, but I'm struggling to think of any other winger who has had that combination since John Bevan.

Here is Bevan scoring against the All Blacks 50 years ago. (https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=572016509&sxsrf=AM9HkKlgvLsCBmVPGE1rBcO7QNW1tEs3JQ:1696886093576&q=john+bevan+welsh+rugby+player&tbm=vid&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdxtOm8emBAxXoU0EAHffWDOUQ0pQJegQICxAB&biw=1746&bih=882&dpr=1#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:bea479a9,vid:oneOAvBpSp0,st:0)

Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 09 October, 2023, 11:29:09 pm
Excellent!  Very unfortunate hair and whiskers combo, though!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 10 October, 2023, 12:45:56 am
That Fiji - Portugal game last night was the best of the tournament so far. 

Bets for Portugal relegating Italy from the 6-nations?

They need a 2-division league.

Div 1: France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales
Div 2. England, Georgia, Italy, Portugal

:demon:

Seriously?

You think England are good enough for the second tier?

Just about.  They haven’t contrived to lose to Italy in the Six Nations yet anyway. 🇮🇹
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 10 October, 2023, 05:49:54 am
That Fiji - Portugal game last night was the best of the tournament so far. 

Bets for Portugal relegating Italy from the 6-nations?

They need a 2-division league.

Div 1: France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales
Div 2. England [Team playing Farrell at 10], Georgia, Italy, Portugal

:demon:

FTFY
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 10 October, 2023, 09:15:18 am
I hope Farrell never gets to read this thread. It could turn him into an even more angst ball of fury than he already is.

Mind you. I did laugh when he was out of time taking that penalty the other day. I can’t think of any other player who is a big enough plonker to allow that to happen.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 11 October, 2023, 10:16:17 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/11/steve-borthwick-owen-farrell-george-ford-england-fiji-rugby-world-cup

Borthwick seems set to choose Farrell and drop Ford. An interesting decision...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 11 October, 2023, 10:53:40 pm
Fiji are big blokes.  Farrell is 6' 2" and Ford 5' 9".  Perhaps he thinks Ford is too small.  On the other hand, he's a lot harder to catch than Farrell and is just as good a kicker.  I like having Smith in the team but Steward has been very good at 15.  Hard decisions.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 11 October, 2023, 11:01:51 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/11/steve-borthwick-owen-farrell-george-ford-england-fiji-rugby-world-cup

Borthwick seems set to choose Farrell and drop Ford. An interesting decision...

Maybe Borthwick is tired and wants to go home.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 11 October, 2023, 11:06:03 pm
I rate Smith, but I think he's a bit small for a fullback - especially if he's supposed to keep big Fijians out.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 11 October, 2023, 11:55:26 pm
Well, Ford-Farrell didn't work, so he either chooses to play his captain or not.  If you rate a player as your captain, you got to play them.  If Farrell shouldn't be in the team, should have worked that out before the WC.
Sinfield will have first-hand experience of this, having Captained GB and England in a team where they struggled to fit him in, and he had to play out of position.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fimm on 12 October, 2023, 03:46:45 pm
Have Scotland changed their anthem, or did the French just play it wrong?

I didn't see who the offical crooner was, but the last four notes to the words "to think again" has always had a falling whole tone between "to" and "think", giving it a very modal sound. I'm pretty sure that tonight it was a falling semitone.

I'm guessing (having not heard it) that this is something to do with playing "Flower of Scotland" on bagpipes, which are not fully chromatic. The original tune has a note that the bagpipes can't play, so we are used to hearing the bagpipe-friendly version. However if bagpipes are not being used, you can hear the original version.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 12 October, 2023, 06:10:25 pm
Have Scotland changed their anthem, or did the French just play it wrong?

I didn't see who the offical crooner was, but the last four notes to the words "to think again" has always had a falling whole tone between "to" and "think", giving it a very modal sound. I'm pretty sure that tonight it was a falling semitone.

I'm guessing (having not heard it) that this is something to do with playing "Flower of Scotland" on bagpipes, which are not fully chromatic. The original tune has a note that the bagpipes can't play, so we are used to hearing the bagpipe-friendly version. However if bagpipes are not being used, you can hear the original version.

That makes sense. Thanks - I hadn't thought of that. I assume that the French weren't using bagpipes, but I wasn't listening terribly attentively. And, sadly, since Scotland are now out, I won't get another chance.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 12 October, 2023, 10:39:35 pm
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1041999703654451

Another chance! And yes, a semitone between "to" and "think".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YaHlR3jGFg&ab_channel=IanBerwick

A whole tone that time, without bagpipes...

I've found other renditions with bagpipes and a semitone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiyLuv3GSs4&ab_channel=BarryFerguson

The original version, allegedy, and definitely a whole tone.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 13 October, 2023, 08:03:35 am
Yes, that is the original and it was written by Roy Williamson, who is the singer on that recording.  He and Ronnie Browne were The Corries, who were regularly on television in the era just before popular beat combos.  I think you might like this song "Lord Yester" which is set to a poem by George Weir.  It is one of the most beautiful tunes I have heard and was, I think, written again by Roy Williamson, though it is sung by Ronnie Browne.  I have just discovered that Roy died of a brain tumour the day my daughter was born, and I wish I had not noticed that.  He needs no more tenuous claims to fame.  I hope you enjoy it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfjInT5lZn4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfjInT5lZn4)

PS I like Flower of Scotland as a song but I think its use as a "national anthem" is crass - is there any other anthem that actually insults another nation?

Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 13 October, 2023, 08:34:37 am
“O lord, our god, arise!
Scatter our enemies
And make them fall!
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks:
On you our hopes we fix -
God save us all!”

Is that not a rough translation of

“The English, the English, the English are best,
So up with the English and down with the rest!”?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 13 October, 2023, 08:37:52 am
Well, yes. I did think that.

However, when was that last sung?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: tedshred on 13 October, 2023, 09:22:21 am


PS I like Flower of Scotland as a song but I think its use as a "national anthem" is crass - is there any other anthem that actually insults another nation?

"Lord grant that Marshal Wade, may by thy mighty aid, victory bring. May he sedition hush, and like a torrent rush, rebellious Scots to crush. God save the King!"

 :o
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: John Stonebridge on 13 October, 2023, 10:13:23 am
Flower of Scotland is an absolute embarrassment as a national anthem, I reach for the mute button (or head to the fridge if I'm at home) when it comes on. 

I'd have Auld Lang Syne - it's universally recognised and it's a song of fraternity & solidarity.  Better than FOS which is a small minded anti English rant. 
 
The fact that God Save the King is officially the UK national anthem but is used and recognised as the English anthem is far from ideal. 

I thought you lot would have preferred Jerusalem, its been pretty much mandatory at every English wedding I've ever been to and its always been belted out with gusto.   

 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: farfetched on 13 October, 2023, 12:21:54 pm
Back on topic.... it looks like Farrell will play instead of Ford tomorrow.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67095694 (https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67095694)
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 13 October, 2023, 01:26:33 pm
Yes, that has already been dealt with on here!

For the recent discussion, yes, I can't think when I've ever heard the objectionable verses of the English-Germanic anthem sung and I'm old.  You can't sing Flower of Scotland as an anthem, without it being a swipe at the English.  Fine as a folk song, a piece of history which is how it was intended.  I don't know when it started to be sung at sporting occasions but it's composer died in 1990, so he may not have heard it's misappropriation.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 13 October, 2023, 01:33:53 pm
Pretty sure it was sung at Murrayfield in the late 1970's
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 13 October, 2023, 01:35:17 pm
Quite possibly, J.  It had certainly been written by then.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 13 October, 2023, 01:41:10 pm
Pretty sure it was sung at Murrayfield in the late 1970's

1990 according to this: https://www.france24.com/en/20100203-rugby-six-nations-murrayfield-flowers-scotland-england-mark-owen-europe-sport

The only song I remember the Scots crowd singing in the early 1970s, on my only trip to Murrayfield, was a simple ditty calling into question the parentage of the referee, sung to the tune of "Clementine".
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 13 October, 2023, 01:45:44 pm
Pretty sure it was sung at Murrayfield in the late 1970's

1990 according to this: https://www.france24.com/en/20100203-rugby-six-nations-murrayfield-flowers-scotland-england-mark-owen-europe-sport

Well, I went to most internationals at Murrayfield in the late 1970s and something was sung that was suspiciously like Flower of Scotland. Being English the words were pointed out to me by friends.

and this says 1974

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_of_Scotland


I imagine it is a bit like the "Mexican Wave" which actually started some years before people think it did, and not in Mexico.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 13 October, 2023, 03:59:37 pm
Back on topic.... it looks like Farrell will play instead of Ford tomorrow.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67095694 (https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67095694)

So Fiji into the semi's

or Ford to play the last 30-minute-hero?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 13 October, 2023, 06:45:27 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_of_Scotland

Quote
The song was adopted as the pre-game anthem for the 1990 Five Nations Championship, first non-officially for the initial home game against France,[6] then for the deciding match between Scotland and England at Murrayfield, which Scotland won 13–7 to win the Grand Slam.[7][8] The Scottish Football Association adopted "Flower of Scotland" as its pre-game national anthem in 1997[9] although it was first used by them in 1993.

Talking about being adopted as an anthem not a random sing-along in the crowd.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 13 October, 2023, 06:48:01 pm
Jings.

It was NOT a random singalong in the crowd.  ::-)
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 14 October, 2023, 04:20:06 pm
Don't thing I've ever seen a ref sub before...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 14 October, 2023, 05:12:34 pm
Don't thing I've ever seen a ref sub before...

I missed the first half. What happened?

I'm pretty sure there was a ref sub in England v Wales 1970. It was the match where Gareth Edwards went off injured, after he collided with the ref and broke his (the ref's) leg. Chico Hopkins replaced Edwards and played a blinder. Wales recovered from a poor first half to win 17 - 13. Hopkins sonn went to rugby league

The above is all from memory so may not be 100% accurate.

PS Graun coverage confirms England v Wales 1970 ref replacement, but no further details.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 14 October, 2023, 05:15:53 pm
Wales are in trouble.  That is 100% accurate as I write.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 14 October, 2023, 05:20:22 pm
Wales are playing badly and Argentina are struggling to beat them. Whoever gets through ought to be soundly thrashed in the semifinal.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 14 October, 2023, 05:27:52 pm
I don't know the route to the final.  is it not possible that Wales or Argentina could get Fiji or England?  If that is possible then a win would certainly be possible for Wales or Argentina.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 14 October, 2023, 05:43:37 pm
Ireland or New Zealand, apparently.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 14 October, 2023, 05:53:43 pm
Argentina!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 14 October, 2023, 05:56:54 pm
Ooops.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 14 October, 2023, 07:54:01 pm
OK, what is the thinking about tonight's match? I've got a nasty feeling that NZ are going to win.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 14 October, 2023, 07:56:12 pm
Wales are playing badly and Argentina are struggling to beat them. Whoever gets through ought to be soundly thrashed in the semifinal.

I think Argentina played very intelligently

And ref-sub - I'm sure I've seen one involving Spreadbury before, can't remember though whether he went off or was the replacement - groin injury during a sprint.  Same thing happened to me in a 7's tournament, sprinted after a winger and something went twang, luckily he was in the clear and I didn't need to make a decision.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 October, 2023, 08:33:49 pm
Aaaah, Patagonia!  The Welsh Vietnam :demon:
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 14 October, 2023, 09:17:04 pm
Someone said it could be a 6 Nations semi-final lineup.

Could also be a Southern Hemisphere semi-final lineup
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 14 October, 2023, 09:50:32 pm
Oh my.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 14 October, 2023, 09:50:44 pm
Fuck.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 14 October, 2023, 09:53:51 pm
Quite a game that.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: liam_whippet on 14 October, 2023, 09:55:36 pm

And ref-sub - I'm sure I've seen one involving Spreadbury before, can't remember though whether he went off or was the replacement - groin injury during a sprint.  Same thing happened to me in a 7's tournament, sprinted after a winger and something went twang, luckily he was in the clear and I didn't need to make a decision.

"He once took over from an injured Chris White in the Heineken Cup Final."   [Wikipedia..]
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 14 October, 2023, 09:59:25 pm
Fuck.
Ireland and Wales

I did think of posting that

'Arsebollocks' will do

Yes. It was a bloody good game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 14 October, 2023, 10:09:01 pm
I'm not all that disappointed with Wales, because Gatland prepared a makeshift side as well as he could have done, and in the group stages they made the most of their limited/inexperienced resources. They were going to come unstuck at some point, and they always lose to New Zealand.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 14 October, 2023, 10:13:31 pm
I'm knackered just from watching that.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 14 October, 2023, 10:23:35 pm
^ this.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: John Stonebridge on 14 October, 2023, 10:29:23 pm
Great performance & result for NZ

I'm delighted given that my daughter has NZ citizenship and her husbands family are all NZ based.

I'm always perplexed by the seeming love in that UK TV coverage has for Ireland uniquely as a foreign country

Large glass of Springbank 21YO being poured
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 14 October, 2023, 11:28:34 pm
It may be more to do with recognising that Ireland has been the most consistently excellent side from the British Isles in recent years.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 14 October, 2023, 11:37:20 pm
:(
Yabollox to the lot of it.  Fingers crossed for better results tomorrow.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Basil on 14 October, 2023, 11:46:54 pm
So much for my prediction of four  6 nations teams in the semi finals.  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 12:08:45 am
The problem with World Rankings is that they are like opinion polls - a rough guide to what is supposed to happen that has a nasty habit of being bitten in the arse by the cold light of reality.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 15 October, 2023, 12:54:02 am
All the rankings are is what has happened, not what is about to happen.

Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: spesh on 15 October, 2023, 11:58:33 am
All the rankings are is what has happened, not what is about to happen.

Past performance is no guarantee of future results. The value of your emotional over-investment may go down as well as up.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 15 October, 2023, 12:22:32 pm
Great performance & result for NZ

I'm delighted given that my daughter has NZ citizenship and her husbands family are all NZ based.

I'm always perplexed by the seeming love in that UK TV coverage has for Ireland uniquely as a foreign country

Large glass of Springbank 21YO being poured

It will be explained by the fact that the Ireland XV isn't a Republic side but an all-Ireland one. Hence the anthem they sing, written for the team so as to reflect that. They are partly a UK side.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 03:32:23 pm
Great performance & result for NZ

I'm delighted given that my daughter has NZ citizenship and her husbands family are all NZ based.

I'm always perplexed by the seeming love in that UK TV coverage has for Ireland uniquely as a foreign country

Large glass of Springbank 21YO being poured

My daughter has Aussie citizenship, her husband's a kiwi and they live in Auckland. She supports Wales, more avidly than I do, and I think NZ is her second team.

I don't particularly know why others do, but my support for Wales, Ireland & Scotland ahead of England is that the first three have, over centuries, been fucked over by the fourth that there's a certain Celtic solidarity at play.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 15 October, 2023, 04:01:53 pm
Earwiggo...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Basil on 15 October, 2023, 04:04:05 pm
Can't find the Colemanballs thread so here will do.

Colemantator just said that this is a 'must win' game for England.
This is knock out rugby.  All games are 'must win for all teams.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 15 October, 2023, 04:11:58 pm
Bloody hell, Bas - that didn't take long!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 15 October, 2023, 04:43:03 pm
Great performance & result for NZ

I'm delighted given that my daughter has NZ citizenship and her husbands family are all NZ based.

I'm always perplexed by the seeming love in that UK TV coverage has for Ireland uniquely as a foreign country

Large glass of Springbank 21YO being poured

My daughter has Aussie citizenship, her husband's a kiwi and they live in Auckland. She supports Wales, more avidly than I do, and I think NZ is her second team.

I don't particularly know why others do, but my support for Wales, Ireland & Scotland ahead of England is that the first three have, over centuries, been fucked over by the fourth that there's a certain Celtic solidarity at play.

What about some Saxon - Celtic solidarity?  All of us were effectively "fucked over" by the French in 1066.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 15 October, 2023, 05:54:57 pm
Bravo England?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 15 October, 2023, 05:57:58 pm
I shall be serving Humble Pie in the matter of Owen Farrell in a moment or two.  I shall be having a huge slice and I expect several people on here to join me.  I feel very sorry for George Ford but today Owen Farrell has dug England out of a huge hole and thumbed his nose at us all.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 15 October, 2023, 06:01:06 pm
This the same Farrell that very nearly lost the game with that cynical foul right at the end?

Ignoring that bit...

Fuck, what a game! I was struck by one post-match scene, where two of the players were seen exchanging shirts.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 15 October, 2023, 06:09:43 pm
I didn't actually see the game, Steph, but was watching the text-speak on the BBC site.  It seems Marcus took a bit of a hammering?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 15 October, 2023, 06:12:38 pm
Looks set for a long career, but what does any of it actually mean?

Chris Ashton

Former England winger on BBC Radio 5 Live

Ben Earl is everywhere and it is hard to single him out, he had his moments in attack helping create momentum.

He is so fast he got away from everyone, Earl is implementing his own game on the team.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 15 October, 2023, 07:12:04 pm
It's about as easy to say for sure that one England fly half would have been better than the other, as it's to say that a helmet...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 15 October, 2023, 07:48:55 pm
sure - it's easy to say anything!  Unless you are a pundit of, course, in which case it seems to be impossible to say anything.  But I know that's not what you were referring to.  Mostly what we say on here makes grammatical sense, even when it's wrong (which is most of the time).  Chris Ashton doesn't even clear that low bar!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 07:55:28 pm
I've got another nasty feeling about this game...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 07:58:48 pm
At least we've got two damned fine national anthems to enjoy.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 15 October, 2023, 08:01:36 pm
If only the Fijians' place kicking had been up to snuff…

Now, allez les Bleus!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 08:05:37 pm
Well, that was a blazing start.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 15 October, 2023, 08:06:20 pm
Full tilt.  :o
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 15 October, 2023, 08:24:03 pm
What a game.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 08:25:34 pm
We need a try from the other French prop now...

And I've never seen a successful charge-down of a conversion before.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 15 October, 2023, 08:27:47 pm
Can’t see England beating either of these!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 08:32:18 pm
This pace can't last. It'll be won by stamina.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: citoyen on 15 October, 2023, 08:32:19 pm
This is insane
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 15 October, 2023, 08:32:49 pm
Can’t see England beating either of these!
Agreed. Their only chance is to pick an effective interference tactic.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 15 October, 2023, 08:38:35 pm
Another way of looking at it is neither team is very good at defending ...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 15 October, 2023, 08:41:38 pm
That Kolbe's a bit rapid…
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 15 October, 2023, 08:50:12 pm
Can’t see England beating either of these!

Well, that is whoever England plays into the final. This is rugby at a much higher level.

One thing that is wonderful is that every quarter final has been a superb game. This one is already up there with the others. Ignoring the simple fact that I am Welsh, and therefore it is traditional, games like these are why I love this sport.

Football can do one.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 09:55:11 pm
Well, I think I'm going to start watching golf.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 15 October, 2023, 09:55:34 pm
That's gotta hurt.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 15 October, 2023, 09:57:16 pm
Bah!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 15 October, 2023, 10:05:32 pm
More fabulous punditry from meaningless statistics:-

Dupont has made 38 passes in the first half.  The nearest other player has 8.

Dupont is the scrum half, for goodness, sake.  Don't you know ANYTHING?

Was prevented from following the second half but it really seems it was a terrific game and one that will keep you tube busy for many years.  Touching that Etzebeth scored a try after his earlier sin-binning.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 10:07:58 pm
Anyone going to bet against a NZ v SA final?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 15 October, 2023, 10:15:23 pm
Noes!  Just realised I'm seeing Larkin Poe at the Roundhouse next Saturday night!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 15 October, 2023, 10:17:49 pm
If NZ:RSA final - NZ will need to up their game to get near to tonight's level.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 10:20:18 pm
If NZ:RSA final - NZ will need to up their game to get near to tonight's level.

They will.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 10:26:06 pm
As has been pointed out, England are the only unbeaten team left.

 :facepalm:
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 15 October, 2023, 10:33:20 pm
Eh le merde.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 10:35:21 pm
At least Wales won at fupbol...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 10:37:57 pm
Eh le merde.

La merde, monsieur...</pédant>
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 October, 2023, 11:12:18 pm
Quote
The crowd trouble occurred in the first half and a video emerged of scuffling in the stands with one supporter picked up and launched several rows forward. It is believed the unsavoury scenes were sparked because a group of fans in Lord Nelson costumes were wearing hats that obscured other supporters’ views of the pitch. It is understood that stewards swiftly attended to the scuffling and multiple supporters were ejected.

Is it not possibly just a twattish thing to do to turn up to a rugby match in France dressed as Nelson?

From https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/15/steve-borthwick-shrugs-off-england-critics-i-dont-care-what-people-think

Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 16 October, 2023, 07:26:10 am
'parently  Eng v RSA...

November 2021.  England 27-26.
November 2022.  South Africa 27-13.

RSA on current form look a step too far for Eng tho.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: T42 on 16 October, 2023, 08:13:49 am
Quote
The crowd trouble occurred in the first half and a video emerged of scuffling in the stands with one supporter picked up and launched several rows forward. It is believed the unsavoury scenes were sparked because a group of fans in Lord Nelson costumes were wearing hats that obscured other supporters’ views of the pitch. It is understood that stewards swiftly attended to the scuffling and multiple supporters were ejected.

Is it not possibly just a twattish thing to do to turn up to a rugby match in France dressed as Nelson?


I hope they were sufficiently dedicated to remove eyes and arms beforehand. If not, maybe some public benefactor might oblige de façon artisanale.

In other news, bugger: France out, Ireland out, Fiji out.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 16 October, 2023, 11:01:16 am
Quote
The crowd trouble occurred in the first half and a video emerged of scuffling in the stands with one supporter picked up and launched several rows forward. It is believed the unsavoury scenes were sparked because a group of fans in Lord Nelson costumes were wearing hats that obscured other supporters’ views of the pitch. It is understood that stewards swiftly attended to the scuffling and multiple supporters were ejected.

Is it not possibly just a twattish thing to do to turn up to a rugby match in France dressed as Nelson?

From https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/15/steve-borthwick-shrugs-off-england-critics-i-dont-care-what-people-think

Yes.  It's a bit like turning up at every England match and singing Flower of Scotland for 80 minutes.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 16 October, 2023, 11:33:43 am
I shall be serving Humble Pie in the matter of Owen Farrell in a moment or two.  I shall be having a huge slice and I expect several people on here to join me.  I feel very sorry for George Ford but today Owen Farrell has dug England out of a huge hole and thumbed his nose at us all.

Really?  I was listening to it on R5 and thinking "has he fucked it up again with a stupid penalty?"
He just doesn't seem to learn
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 16 October, 2023, 12:00:06 pm
This the same Farrell that very nearly lost the game with that cynical foul right at the end?

Ignoring that bit...

Fuck, what a game! I was struck by one post-match scene, where two of the players were seen exchanging shirts.

Already mentioned that one!

In other news, re the 'Nelson' thing
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/other/ex-wales-star-shows-true-colours-with-bitter-gesture-before-england-s-rugby-world-cup-win/ar-AA1ihcKq?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=HCTS&cvid=8fffca85bb2145b2b47f1a28686d344f&ei=10

Yes I know it's the Heil for even thicker gammons, but who the hell is "Ben" Quinnell?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 16 October, 2023, 12:23:22 pm
Possibly someone the D. Heil made up in order to avoid being sued?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 16 October, 2023, 12:48:32 pm
I shall be serving Humble Pie in the matter of Owen Farrell in a moment or two.  I shall be having a huge slice and I expect several people on here to join me.  I feel very sorry for George Ford but today Owen Farrell has dug England out of a huge hole and thumbed his nose at us all.

Really?  I was listening to it on R5 and thinking "has he fucked it up again with a stupid penalty?"
He just doesn't seem to learn

Don't worry, Dave!  I can manage a whole pie on my own!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: farfetched on 16 October, 2023, 04:25:46 pm
Farrell is a reliable kicker, one of the best - Fiji wasn't and that probably cost them.
You have to feel for France and Ireland but in the end NZ and SA defended slightly better and were able to close them out. Ireland have still never won a world cup knock-out game.

I think that SA are better prospect for England than France. The French with all their flair (at home) would have thumped England by 20-30 points, and would not have let up. SA are not the same, they try to exert control and generally take calculated risks - still think they will win by 10-15 points though.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 16 October, 2023, 05:08:54 pm
Possibly someone the D. Heil made up in order to avoid being sued?

His name is Scott. He and his father and brother are rather famous in our country.

Now, in reply to 'Farfetched', I predict the final as a NZ/SA affair. Both England and Argentina will be thumped.

ETA I forgot Scott's uncle, who is also rather well known, and was King for a while.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 16 October, 2023, 05:46:13 pm
Possibly someone the D. Heil made up in order to avoid being sued?

His name is Scott. He and his father and brother are rather famous in our country.

Now, in reply to 'Farfetched', I predict the final as a NZ/SA affair. Both England and Argentina will be thumped.

ETA I forgot Scott's uncle, who is also rather well known, and was King for a while.
Oh, I recall well the Quinnell family. It was Derek who laid on the scoring pass for Gareth Edwards' "a dramatic start" (C. Morgan, 1973) although I never thought the pass was actually intended for Edwards: there was another Barbarian to his left - I've forgotten who* - and Edwards burst through at tremendous speed.

Scott scored a very fine try against the French in Paris Cardiff.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSzBZqhMu_I&ab_channel=RuddyDarter)

Which, alarmingly, I find was 29 years ago...

*John Bevan, mentioned a few pages back in this thread.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 October, 2023, 10:29:17 pm
I totally forgot that there was a semifinal this evening.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 21 October, 2023, 12:14:48 am
I totally forgot that there was a semifinal this evening.

There wasn't really though.

What a shame for the Argies.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 21 October, 2023, 12:59:59 am
After the first five minutes I thought Johnny Gaucho was going to make a game of it :facepalm:
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 21 October, 2023, 12:28:53 pm
Quote
The crowd trouble occurred in the first half and a video emerged of scuffling in the stands with one supporter picked up and launched several rows forward. It is believed the unsavoury scenes were sparked because a group of fans in Lord Nelson costumes were wearing hats that obscured other supporters’ views of the pitch. It is understood that stewards swiftly attended to the scuffling and multiple supporters were ejected.

Is it not possibly just a twattish thing to do to turn up to a rugby match in France dressed as Nelson?

From https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/15/steve-borthwick-shrugs-off-england-critics-i-dont-care-what-people-think

I bet they were hoping for a French win so that today's semi-final would be France v England - on Trafalgar Day!

The cricket team certainly seem to be playing as if they've got eyes and arms missing at the moment.  But it's still to play for.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 21 October, 2023, 01:43:14 pm
So, Argentina or England for the third place play-off :demon:
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 21 October, 2023, 01:47:52 pm
Sun-y Boy!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 21 October, 2023, 07:25:50 pm
Oh well, let's see what happens. Preparing to be unsurprised...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 21 October, 2023, 08:27:16 pm
OF needs to chill.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 21 October, 2023, 08:30:08 pm
Giving away an extra 10 yards in a WC QF - Borthwick should pull him now, he's a fucking liability

I've advanced penalties like that as a ref and you need players to understand the required discipline, at this level that should not be in question.

Joe Marler by contrast- asking the Q, "OK, next time" - smile from ref.  It's all about the engagement, and OF doesn't have it
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 21 October, 2023, 08:37:10 pm
Even worse in a SF!  But you were accidentally right - he did it in the QF, too.  And I think your conclusion is probably correct, too.  It's not as if England are ahead and clear.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 21 October, 2023, 08:43:01 pm
Even worse in a SF!  But you were accidentally right - he did it in the QF, too.  And I think your conclusion is probably correct, too.  It's not as if England are ahead and clear.

Yes, that was a key point in a pre-game briefing - I'll tell you why I've made a decision, that doens't make it a debate.

And yes, SF, not QF
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 21 October, 2023, 08:49:35 pm
Well I wasn't expecting that score line at 1/2 time.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 21 October, 2023, 08:53:59 pm
Even worse in a SF!  But you were accidentally right - he did it in the QF, too.  And I think your conclusion is probably correct, too.  It's not as if England are ahead and clear.

Yes, that was a key point in a pre-game briefing - I'll tell you why I've made a decision, that doens't make it a debate.

And yes, SF, not QF

I like that - I'm hearing it with a Welsh accent, Nigel Owens-style!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 21 October, 2023, 09:13:50 pm
I had one captain visibly roll his eyes at that, alongside my demand for clear ball on the floor

Let's just say 50/50 decisions became 60/40  ;D
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 21 October, 2023, 09:29:33 pm
Ha!

It has to be said that Owen Farrell is pretty much unflappable (although we worry that that can be the problem!).
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 21 October, 2023, 09:35:29 pm
That said, we seem to be coing to them, what they did to us in Japan, in terms of simply disrupting their game enough.

Can we bring another level to NZ if needed?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 21 October, 2023, 09:55:25 pm
Pah!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: toontra on 21 October, 2023, 09:55:49 pm
Pretty rubbish from both teams, probably at least partly due to the conditions.  I wouldn't have seemed right for a team to have got to the final without scoring a try in the semi, so probably the right result.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 21 October, 2023, 09:59:25 pm
Agreed, can't argue with the outcome. A last minute drop would have been a fairytale, but a fair result overall.

I'd have to wonder how many times we've had two from the same pool meet in the last 4?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 21 October, 2023, 10:14:16 pm
Agreed, can't argue with the outcome. A last minute drop would have been a fairytale, but a fair result overall.

I'd have to wonder how many times we've had two from the same pool meet in the last 4?

Can they do that? I thought the pools and knockout stages were always organised that two from the same pool can't meet again until the final/3rd place play off (I don't even know that there is a 3rd place play off).
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 21 October, 2023, 10:16:37 pm
Last 4 = Final and 3rd playoff?

England v Argentina, again - exacty where we began this
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 21 October, 2023, 10:25:14 pm
Last 4 = Final and 3rd playoff?

England v Argentina, again - exacty where we began this

Ah, I misunderstood. I think of the last 4 as teams still in with a chance of the cup. Teams from the same pool can't meet in the semi.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 21 October, 2023, 10:32:53 pm
Last 4 = Final and 3rd playoff?

England v Argentina, again - exacty where we began this

Ah, I misunderstood. I think of the last 4 as teams still in with a chance of the cup. Teams from the same pool can't meet in the semi.

Could have been more specific, still, can you think when it last happened?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Nuncio on 22 October, 2023, 07:26:45 am
(From Wiki, not memory)

In 2007 England and SA played in the same pool and in the final; and France and Argentina played in the same pool and in the 3rd place game.

eta: France/New Zealand 2011, pool and final.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 22 October, 2023, 11:02:58 am
If the Saffers play the first 60’ of the final the way they played yesterday it won’t matter what they do in the last 20, because New Toyland will already be about forty points ahead.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 22 October, 2023, 11:04:39 am
Indeed. It's looking increasingly like a NZ win - but then most of us didn't give England much hope of keeping SA in check for such a long time.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: drgannet on 22 October, 2023, 01:23:24 pm
I was impressed with the SA substitutions yesterday. It wasn't working so replace as many of the pack and players making errors ASAP. England's prop subs, on the other hand, did not go so well.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 22 October, 2023, 01:34:59 pm
Well, they may struggle for a hooker:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67185493)

but it's good to see equal opportunities in the racism field!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 22 October, 2023, 01:55:23 pm
It seemed that when the final whistle went, there was a bit of argie-bargie* between the two sides. I wasn't paying sufficient attention to notice whether there were handshakes or not.

I was quite surprised, as the match went on, how much I wanted England to win. I'm sure I'll get over it, and will do my best not to repeat the mistake... ;)

*this is not a reference to navigators on the river Plate...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: John Stonebridge on 22 October, 2023, 05:14:37 pm
I didn't give England an earthly last night but they went mighty close.  Their plan to try and beat a team that should have won hands down was almost as admirable as NZ out thinking Ireland. 

I wasn't a fan of England's wind up antics - and more importantly neither was the ref who rightly clamped down and it all seemed to stop in the second half coinciding with the momentum swing towards the boks.  Who knows what might have happened had that penalty not been marched forward? 

I have found the French crowds habit of singing their national anthem during games that feature two other countries a tad irksome.  I could just about understand it last night it if France had reached the final and they were using it as something of a "we're waiting in the final" message to both teams but they were already OOT so its just a very strange thing to do imho.   

NZ son in law messaged at FT to say he'd been wanting England to win "as the weaker team".  Cant see SA being that bad again and I suspect that NZ have already played their best game in the quarters - my prediction is for a dull arm wrestle win for SA in the final. 
 
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Von Broad on 22 October, 2023, 06:50:12 pm
Considering I played a lot of Rugby at school [quite a bit of Rugby around in Northamptonshire in the 1970s] I should understand what I was watching last night, but being primarily a football man, I've never really kept a brace with subtle rule modifications over the years, and quite a lot of the penalty decisions left me a bit bemused. I watched the game alone, and would liked to have watched it with somebody else who understood the nuances of the game so I could turn round every so often and ask, 'what's that for'? lol But that didn't affect my enjoyment of the game, although as has been mentioned above, probably not the best game of Rugby you're going to watch, but pretty tense nonetheless. And full credit to England for giving all they had to give. That elusive try always seemed to be so elusive.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Steph on 23 October, 2023, 03:33:17 am
I watched one moment in the game where SA had a penalty. It may have been the one that won the game for ZA. In it, England were peeped for lifting out in the front row. When you see it from the 'spider cam', it is the SA tighthead who is at such an angle he was absolutely illegal, and him who should have been penalised.

I speak as a former prop.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: ElyDave on 23 October, 2023, 07:08:58 am
I watched one moment in the game where SA had a penalty. It may have been the one that won the game for ZA. In it, England were peeped for lifting out in the front row. When you see it from the 'spider cam', it is the SA tighthead who is at such an angle he was absolutely illegal, and him who should have been penalised.

I speak as a former prop.

If you look at the current crop of referees at that level, not many have played in the front row. Nick Berry's not bad around the scrum - ex scrum-half
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: citoyen on 23 October, 2023, 11:12:31 am
If the Saffers play the first 60’ of the final the way they played yesterday it won’t matter what they do in the last 20, because New Toyland will already be about forty points ahead.

Not sure about that.

I was never convinced by the predictions of a big win for SA over England - it was always going to be the case that England would play their spoiling game against SA, as it was the only approach that had a chance of keeping them within sight on the scoreboard. I did even entertain the idea that England might be able to pull off an unlikely win but as in the France game, SA's ability to raise their level in the final 20 minutes was always going to be hard for England to cope with however well they played tactically.

So, in short, nothing about the game surprised me at all.

NZ will be a very different proposition. They'll take the game to SA - I don't think it's in their nature to play similar tactics to England based - so I would expect the final to be much more along the lines of the France game.

SA aren't invincible, as Ireland showed, but I'd make them clear favourites.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 23 October, 2023, 12:00:40 pm
It was SA's inferior kicking against Ireland that lost them the game. They missed a fair few kicks.

Any news on their hooker?
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 23 October, 2023, 12:08:43 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/22/courtney-lawes-england-rugby-world-cup

I see that Courtney Lawes is retiring after a 14-year England career, notching up 105 caps.

I don't want to seem churlish, but I didn't really rate him as a player. He was prepared to give his all, but I thought he was more journeyman than superstar.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: citoyen on 23 October, 2023, 12:31:16 pm
It was SA's inferior kicking against Ireland that lost them the game. They missed a fair few kicks.

Sure, but against France they were willing to turn down a kick at goal because they backed themselves to get the try instead. Which they did.

New Zealand's defensive line will have to be even sharper than it was against Ireland to stop SA.

And if it comes down to kicks being decisive, let's not forget that NZ don't have Dan Carter any more either.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 27 October, 2023, 08:41:28 pm
Hmmm  ... I thought there was a forward pass in that move.

Edit: Well, I'm surprised that one was allowed... Otherwise, a good try.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 27 October, 2023, 08:55:52 pm
It would be poor form for me to cheer on the argies...
Not from an anti-english stance of course, but rather from a neutral, good of the game, stance.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 27 October, 2023, 09:00:58 pm
I suppose if we want the entertainment of a Farrell meltdown, a few more point for Argentina will help.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 27 October, 2023, 09:04:44 pm
I say!  Johnny Gaucho has come out fighting!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 27 October, 2023, 09:09:39 pm
That charge-down try was rather good. I recall Gethin Jenkins doing something similar to Ronan O'Gara quite a few years back. It might even have been Jenkins' debut for Wales.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tX2FR8t-vM&ab_channel=JedBrookes-Lewis

I don't think it was his debut.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 27 October, 2023, 09:58:03 pm
That was a lot less crap than I feared it might have been.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 27 October, 2023, 09:59:48 pm
I thought the second half was a bit of a disappointment. It just seemed to fizzle out.

I think it's fair to say that England probably had the best world cup of all the teams, when you compare their bronze medals to the way they played in the lead-up. I don't think anyone expected that from them.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 27 October, 2023, 10:23:33 pm
Indeed. Despie the ITV commentwats saying that they came for metal and got the wrong colour.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 27 October, 2023, 10:32:02 pm
I thought the commentators were consistently rubbish throughout the tournament. I picked up that forward pass that lead to Argentina's first try during live play. They didn't mention it. Lawrence Dallaglio and Clive Woodward were all over it, and every replay confirmed that it was forward. I was very surprised that the officials allowed the try to stand.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 28 October, 2023, 12:13:22 am
And yet the Argentina coach moaned about the referee.  The radio commentator was pretty poor.  She repeated the same phrase over and over again: "It's a three point game", when what she meant was, "Argentina is only 3 points behind," which we could tell, believe it or not, from the score.  Effortlessly as poor as a male+ commentator.

I think England are better placed for the 6 nations than any of the others.  I do hope Marcus Smith becomes a fixture.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 28 October, 2023, 10:50:23 am
I hope they take him away from full back though. He's not big enough. I said this pages back, and I think it was Clive Woodward who said pretty much the same last night. There was one Argentinian move in which Smith was just knocked back in his attempt to tackle someone who wasn't actually that big, and I think that was the event Woodward was referring to.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 28 October, 2023, 06:43:30 pm
He's only an inch shorter than Leigh Halfpenny and he did all right, possibly by eating more pies.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 28 October, 2023, 07:15:39 pm
Yes, only a 3kg weight difference, but I never saw Halfpenny crumple whilst trying to tackle. Maybe that's a skill thing he would gain if he played at full back more.

I'm trying to find JPR Williams' weight. Wikipedia doesn't give it. ISTR that he was about 14 stones, which is 89kg.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 28 October, 2023, 07:33:36 pm
And most of that was sideburns!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 28 October, 2023, 07:44:50 pm
I am yet to understand a single word that guy in the black suit on ITV1 has said. The subtitles seem to feel the same way.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 28 October, 2023, 07:47:06 pm
I'm making the mistake of watching the preamble. They are talking about goal kicking distance and are claiming that modern kickers kick further than those from yesteryear. They cited Neil Jenkins: I'd offer Paul Thorburn as the the guy who succeeded with the longest kicks I can remember.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6tdn5IGJbs&ab_channel=GuinnessSixNations
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 28 October, 2023, 08:45:23 pm
Well, that's buggered the game as a spectacle - not that it was up to much anyway.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: andyoxon on 28 October, 2023, 08:45:49 pm
Yep, that's probably killed the match...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 28 October, 2023, 08:45:56 pm
I think that’s Game Over for New Toyland.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 28 October, 2023, 09:18:38 pm
"Well, Sam Warburton, what's it like when you lose your no. 7?"

Sam should know - he was sent off very early in the knockout stage of a World Cup match against France for a "spear tackle" a few years ago, and Wales lost by only a handful of points.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 28 October, 2023, 09:52:27 pm
Aha! 14 v 14.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 28 October, 2023, 10:04:52 pm
Bah!  Although South Africa did their best to throw it away in the second half.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 28 October, 2023, 10:05:33 pm
Arse.

Except England were put out by the winners…
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 28 October, 2023, 10:15:39 pm
Really not that impressed by SA in this game. They had an extra player for about 75% of the game but couldn't add to their half-time score. And NZ missed two kicks, either of which would have won it.

France v Ireland would have been a lot more fun.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Jaded on 28 October, 2023, 10:23:54 pm
Fantastic refereeing
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 28 October, 2023, 10:28:26 pm
And no penalties given away in the scrum.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: drgannet on 28 October, 2023, 10:33:04 pm
That has to be in the bottom couple of worst finals!

And Ireland the only team to beat SA...
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 28 October, 2023, 10:35:17 pm
Seeing Bill Beaumont reminds me that Janet, as married to My Mate Terry etc, used to sell BB jock straps at Phillips Sports Shop in Chorley.

(is BB a size of jockstrap?)
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Wowbagger on 29 October, 2023, 11:20:53 am
That has to be in the bottom couple of worst finals!

And Ireland the only team to beat SA...

All-in-all, a very disappointing world cup.
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 29 October, 2023, 11:22:15 am
^ well, France didn't win, so d'uh!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Mr Larrington on 29 October, 2023, 11:24:33 am
Admittedly I missed most of the pool games but Portugal-Fiji, Ireland-New Zealand and England-South Africa were worth the price of admission*.  Albeit mainly for the wrong reasons i.e. ARE BOYS/BHOYS losing to southern hemisphere upstarts.

* Hurrah for FTA television :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: DuncanM on 02 November, 2023, 02:57:01 pm
I could barely bring myself to watch any of this world cup because I think there's something fundamentally wrong with the current version of the rulebook and it's stifling the game. I believe that the in each of the knockout matches* the winner was the team who made the most tackles - that can't be how rugby is supposed to be played. It should be a game about running and passing, not who can manage territory and make the most tackles.
* and most of the pool games involving closely matched teams too
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 02 November, 2023, 07:22:12 pm
Running and passing has got harder, partly because the players take up too much room!
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: fd3 on 02 November, 2023, 09:52:50 pm
They could solve your problem by removing two players (say, the flankers) from each team
While they're at it they could get rid of scrums (coin toss for penalty) and line.outs (run with the ball stop kicking!).
Title: Re: Rugby World Cup 2023 in France
Post by: Peter on 03 November, 2023, 07:49:54 am
 ;D