What is Audax?

[teethgrinder]

Is there a rule against motor pacing on Audax events? It wouldn't be any different whether it's an electric, petrol or diesel engine.
Audax riding hasn't changed really. If electric bikes take off, they'd probably have their own niche like the mods on scooters riding down to Brighton.
If I wanted a motorbike, I'd get a proper one.
Isn't this just a storm in a teacup? Why would someone spend £thousands on claiming AUK points on an electric bike? Doing it on a bike cost me everything I had and I've done it cheaper than most. At least £7000.

I've yet to have had my bike checke d on a UK Audax since a National 400 in the 1990s. All those permanents etc that I've ridden could have been on geared bikes. Nobody ever checked.
Even bike checks aren't infallible and easy to cheat. What would stop someone bringing a normal bike for the bike check and an electric bike to ride?

Most people are honest about this sort of thing and the dishonest will soon be discovered. When someone is frequently seen freewheeling up the Devils Staircase, wouldn't that arouse suspicion?

Someone needing electric assistance and struggling to finish a ride would get more kudos than a seasoned AUK completing the same event. That wold be worth much more than a validated brevet. Why would they cheat and lie?

[Veloman]

So if AUK is getting rid of all competitive elements are they going to get rid of points, results tables, controls, awards, medals, trophy's?  What will Audax be without these?  I'll still enjoy riding my bike without those things, but I can do that without AUK membership and without paying entry fees for rides.

The same as audax represents in the many other countries where they celebrate achievement rather than winners that are generated by a having a competition in a non-competitive pastime.  You can still have points and medals to reflect achievement, such as R5000 award etc, but you don't need the competitive elements that AUK currently support.  The majority of people pay their entry fee and ride their bike for reasons of what audax means to them and for the vast majority of people it becomes a competition against themselves to achieve something and not a competition against others.  I think this would continue whether or not you have championships with the winners and, by default, losers.

I'm with Marcus and will hold the blow torch for him!

He also makes a valid point regards pacing and taking pace from a tandem, or anyone else using only human (or super-human) power should also be banned.  Oooops, guilty as charged!

[Andrew]

So if AUK is getting rid of all competitive elements are they going to get rid of points, results tables, controls, awards, medals, trophy's?  What will Audax be without these?  I'll still enjoy riding my bike without those things, but I can do that without AUK membership and without paying entry fees for rides.

I have considered that very point frequently, believe me. Truth is (for me anyway), I wouldn't. I wouldn't do a 400/600/+ audax-style ride informally. I need the framework of an organised event. I pay my membership for that alone. As long as Audax UK etc continues to provide that core framework then I really don't mind how they might expand it.

[Cudzoziemiec]

there are plenty of rides outside Audax that I enjoy. 

This muchly. Since I first became aware of Audax but before I was at all into it (to the small extent that I am), I realised that there are some people for whom Audax is the be all and end all of cycling. They are probably a vocal minority rather than a majority (and some prominent audaxers are notable exceptions) but there is a certain tendency that refuses to contemplate a ride that doesn't get them some points.

Well, whatever kicks your stick. I don't get the points are all attitude, but it's better to ride for points alone than spend your weekend visiting Ikea. Probably!

I do agree with the slippery slope argument though. Not so much for Audax itself, but for electric bikes generally - just as mopeds developed from something like a Velo Solex, a motor-assisted bicycle, through a pedal-assisted motorcycle to being simply a small motorbike, so it's inevitable that electric bikes will do the same.

[Andrew]

Why would they cheat and lie?

Must be honest, whenever I do start thinking about regs etc, this is my conclusion. Given I see audax as a personal challenge, such a person would only be cheating themselves. Admittedly, some will see me as naïve and I have had it explained to me as to WHY someone might cheat, and why it matters, but tbh I don't think it up there on the scale of things. It'd perhaps surprise nobody if I said I don't care if someone cheats.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Get homologated for riding a Ducati round a BP. How is this situation different to all of the arguments for allowing electric bikes to be homologated on a BP?

Well, a Ducati is likely to prove a far greater mechanical challenge... 

[Exit Stage Left]

The origins of Audax lie in bicycle makers proving the practicality of their machines. There've been various schisms along the way, largely around commercialisation. We see occasional minor ripples of that around novel machines, the kick-bike, row bike, velomobiles and the elliptigo come to mind.

Audax serves as a good proving and promotional tool, especially at PBP where the press get a list of unusual machines to look at. Electric bikes are probably a step too far, but I do like the idea of aiding their development. The early PBP bikes were sealed to avoid replacement parts, as they were reliability trials.

So I'd be happy enough for EAPC's to be used on the condition that they can only use the battery they start with, and that some additional funding comes from somewhere to enforce those conditions. People swapping batteries in lay-bys would prove nothing.

[JamesBradbury]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

For me, I see audax as somewhere between touring and racing. I like that it's non-competitive and inclusive. It's already a long way from one-design. We see a wide variety of bikes and technologies, electronic shifting, recumbents, eliptigos. Varying ages and abilities, both in terms of pedalling, navigating and repairing, all of which I have discovered can affect the outcome! So we are all kind of in a league of our own already.

OTOH, assisted propulsion rather than human power alone does seem to be a significant difference.

But yeah, until someone brings a Ducati, I doubt it will affect my enjoyment.

[T42]

Audax is quite simply a physical-endurance discipline. Human endurance.  Allow motors and it's not Audax any more - call it Para-Audax or Paradox or whatever, but it's not real Audax.

[trekker12]

I'm new to Audax, I've not collected any points or awards but the appeal is an organised framework in which I can push myself and see how far that takes me.

I've competed in rally cars at international and national level and attempted to win championships against others for what is in reality nothing more than a silver cup and the kudos of saying we were the best crew in that championship. Very few championship wins result in prize money or the holy grail of professional drives at the very top of the sport.

In order to win just a silver cup I've seen enormous lengths (and cost) taken to beat all others and for many people it was a win at all costs attitude. I maybe didn't get further into the sport because I don't have that in-built attitude but I am very proud of my achievements and my modest collection of silver cups. My attitude to those who were taking the rule book as far as they could was it's their choice and good luck to them.

I feel the same about Audax but to a greater extent. It's a personal challenge and for me finishing an event is enough. If someone cruises past me on a hill in electric mode then I'll feel better about myself when I get to the top for doing it under my own steam.

Of course if it gives someone with a disability a way into our fascinating hobby (does it?) then I'm all for it.

[Ivan]

For me Audax is about riding long distances. I haven't ridden a BP for about 5 years, have no intentions to do any until I can no longer complete a BR, so I chose to abstain from the EAPC vote at the AGM as it has no effect on me or the events I'm involved in. The fact that the majority of riders on some BP events aren't even members of AUK shows how non-audax these really are, and that two tier system seems to work fine.

I find it hard to believe anyone would ride a BR calendar event with electric assistance and get away with it - there may not be official bike inspections, but I, like all the other riders I know, waste considerable time at every opportunity checking out all the bikes I come across.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The recent Irish 1200km brevet had a starter using an electric bike, with the full knowledge of the organisers. They rode knowing that, if they'd finished the event, their brevet would not be homologated.

I have no problems with that approach. I would not have ridden the Irish 1200 if that rider was homologated.

[Andrew]

I would not have ridden the Irish 1200 if that rider was homologated.

Seriously? Forgive me, I don't doubt your passion/belief/conviction and admire it in many ways, but that really does seem cutting off the nose to spite the face.. though I'm sure there's a more apt, cycling related metaphor!

[The Seldom Killer]

What does Audax mean to you?

What direction is Audax UK going in?

I see two very distinctly different questions here.

Audaxing to me is about, primarily, cycling long distances and the challenge thereof. I think that's going to be true of all audaxers, regardless of what their steed is. But there is this secondary side to it. It's about seeing parts of the countryside, enjoying the company of similarly minded people. That's going to be true for a majority of riders too as well as things like visiting a certain cafe, keeping fit and active and so on. You can't have audaxing without the first, but you probably wouldn't want it without the second.

As for which direction is Audax UK is going in? Well to me the organisation isn't sport itself. It's the body that governs, facilitates and supports a necessary structure to our activities, but without it we could still go out and ride those same long distances and maybe even organise ourselves into groups of likeminded people to do it with. So, to me, the crunch really comes around those long distances. We have a definition of that, which is quite important here. We're also happy (democratically speaking) for Audax UK to govern, support and facilitate events that fall outside of that definition. So if that in itself is acceptable to us, then I would hope that it's equally acceptable to make those other events accessible to a wider cycling audience. They aren't going to be meeting that long distance criteria, but I can't see a good enough reason to exclude them from those other facets of audaxing that we unassisted riders also see as enjoyable. It's not really incumbent on Audax UK to go out and seek to be more inclusive and accessible  to people who aren't going to reach that primary definition, but once the question has been asked then say yes, with reasonable restrictions, seems the only reasonable answer. For me, it's absolutely the right direction for AUK to be going in because they're the governing body, not the sport.

[marcusjb]

The recent Irish 1200km brevet had a starter using an electric bike, with the full knowledge of the organisers. They rode knowing that, if they'd finished the event, their brevet would not be homologated.

I have no problems with that approach. I would not have ridden the Irish 1200 if that rider was homologated.

And what of those riders who might have sat in behind the rider on this bike? 

I know the EAPC regs in this country only allow the motor to be propelling the machine at speeds of under 15 (soon to be 15.5?) mph - but imagine, if you will, a stern headwind on a flat section where 15mph would be a fine speed to reach, surely anyone sat behind this cyclist who is part of the event, but isn't, would be being paced?

(I totally understand and respect your viewpoint on the change to the regulation, but I struggle with your insistence that there is another way to deal with the situation)

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I would not have ridden the Irish 1200 if that rider was homologated.

Seriously? Forgive me, I don't doubt your passion/belief/conviction and admire it in many ways, but that really does seem cutting off the nose to spite the face.. though I'm sure there's a more apt, cycling related metaphor!

No nose cutting needed. I typically ride three events each year of 1000km or longer, including one in July and a 1200 a fortnight ago. There are lots of events in the calendar and each year I have to choose which ones I ride. I'll support the events that do things 'properly'. Homologating electric bikes isn't proper Audaxing.

[jsabine]

I'm not sure I especially care either way about this change. For me, like Andrew, audax provides a framework which helps motivate me to get out on specific rides, and undoubtedly to ride further and longer than I would ever have contemplated without such a framework. It gives me a framework in which to challenge myself, and it gives others a framework to challenge themselves in ways which I can simultaneously respect yet not be personally interested in - at the moment.

I support the idea of widening access to that challenge, to recognise that for some people getting round any sort of route with assistance is an equally audacious outing, and I'm happy enough to be naive and believe that anyone doing enough miles on an EAPC to be potentially in the running for an award i) has achieved a pretty big feat anyway, ii) will only be cheating themselves if they're trying to conceal the assistance aspect, and iii) would be very rapidly found out anyway if they were trying to be dishonest.

In terms of homologation, was there any consideration of a separate category? BP-E or similar could presumably be made available at any distance, without necessarily opening the can of worms that points or BR might be.

(On a legalistic note, how would the anti-EAPC bunch respond to a legal challenge from a cyclist with an impairment, who contends that their electrical assistance is no more than a reasonable adjustment for disability, and as such should be accepted in any event? Hypothetical and vanishingly unlikely, I grant you, but not impossible.)

[Veloman]

(On a legalistic note, how would the anti-EAPC bunch respond to a legal challenge from a cyclist with an impairment, who contends that their electrical assistance is no more than a reasonable adjustment for disability, and as such should be accepted in any event? Hypothetical and vanishingly unlikely, I grant you, but not impossible.)

Not something we have to consider as the regulations are currently the regulations and we do not have to take account of adjustments for disability in terms of speeds.  Also, if you need assistance then sit on the back of a tandem.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

All of this discussion relates to homologation, being the official recognition of having 'achieved the standard'.

What prevents electric bike riders from riding without a brevet card in their pocket? They can ride along public roads at any time. They can ride along public roads when an Audax uses those roads. They can ride with their friends during an Audax, enjoying the scenery and company.

The only real dispute is whether they get homologated. What is it about collecting a homologation number on a brevet card that is so necessary in getting an electric bike rider out on the road?

[LMT]

Audax riding to me is about riding your bike under your own power following a pre-defined route. The way it has been and the way it always should be.

Allowing E bikes to ride is the start of a very slippery slope imo.

Where do you draw the line??

[Andrew]

Ok, yes, I see your motivation Lwb, and respect it.

For me, I'd ride the MF12 (or whichever other) because of it's parcours as much as anything else. So there is only one such ride in my eyes.

We all make decisions according to our own criteria obvously. I think my stumbling block is that I don't have the reverence (if that's the word) to the regulation that others have. I don't see that the actions of others (in this arena/respect) impact on, nor diminish, my own personal challenge whatsoever. I accept of course that I might feel differently if having a blue bike barred me from entry (a flippant example but a serious point).

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I can ride the route of the Irish ride any time I want to and at any speed I like. The reason to ride the brevet is to take part in a shared challenge (a big reason why I dislike riding solo perms).

[Andrew]

What is it about collecting a homologation number on a brevet card that is so necessary in getting an electric bike rider out on the road?

A good point and one that made me think.

Allow me to flip it around and ask 'does it matter?' Why should the motivation of the electric bike rider concern me?

I'm easy with the answer BTW. If Audax UK allows electric bikes or no, whether it allows homologation or no - it's the same to me. As a general principle, I like inclusivity. And, like most people, where that general principle doesn't compromise me then I can be a bit 'meh' on a subject. Maybe I ought shut up and let myself be guided by people that are more passionate. After all, I depend on such people.

[Carlosfandango]

I think that this is just Audax coming to terms with a changing world and changing technology.

What complicates the matter I think is that there are different reasons for riding Audax.
One reason may be to complete a pleasant but challenging ride in good company and electrical assistance allows those with limited fitness to enjoy this pastime and is to be lauded.
Another reason for Audax is to push the mind and body to acrue points and compete with others over a season or many seasons. This is a sport and I can see why Marcus and others are a bit peeved, reading between the lines of Marcus's post I suspect he rides an Audax without any advantage such as slipstreaming to test himself fully and fairly.
I would have thought that allowing electric bikes is about inclusivity, I really don't think it would diminish the achievements of athletes like Marcus or Audax as a sport.

I expect there'll be another vote next year.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Again, I am happy for an electric bike rider to enter and ride round an Audax. They are held on public roads and every rider has the right to ride them whenever they like. The problem is the homologation. Why is getting official recognition of having 'achieved the standard' so necessary in whether an electric bike rider rides an event?

The person that asked whether he could ride an electric bike is a Super Randonneur and he didn't want his rides to be homologated. He just wanted to ride with his friends.

Audax isn't a sport but even pub darts has rules and one of them requires you to throw the darts from behind the line.

There absolutely will be a vote next year.