Author Topic: "private excursion"  (Read 4834 times)

"private excursion"
« on: 12 September, 2017, 08:48:43 am »
Split from the Flatlander's thread...

I'm more concerned about the repeated references to "an organised bike ride" when our documentation (and, I imagine, our insurance cover) makes it very clear that as participants we are on a private excursion.

No matter what the documentation says, it is an organised bike ride. One cannot just pretend it isn't by stating on a website that it isn't.

Of course, it being an organised bike ride had no bearing on the incident itself.

The "private excursion" wording is more to do with setting the expectation levels between the participant and the organiser (i.e. no closed roads, no sag wagon, no event specific signage at each junction, etc) and reminding the participant that they bear the brunt of the responsibility (especially for their conduct w.r.t. traffic laws).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #1 on: 12 September, 2017, 09:28:11 am »
I was discussing this with my wife last night. It's interesting because I was taking Redlights stance and she was seeing it more from your stance. I do agree that there is no way of escaping it being an organised bike ride just because as piece of paper or something you agree to online says it is not.

That said, I think the reporting (or the research behind it) is bad in this case. When people read 'organised event' I guess they think a signed sportive and I can't imagine it's going to be easy to explain Audax in the article they want to write in this case. The reality is with Free Routing there is no case of, they should not have been there.

I see a comment on one of the updates where the guy has said, 'What were the authorities doing allowing an event at that time'. How would you explain to someone who is likely to have made his mind up that a cyclist is not restricted to riding in daylight hours!

Following my comments from Saturday when I was very tired I have since realised that local knowledge would suggest the A15 is a perfectly viable option at that time of the night and as some pointed out this could just as well have been the B1188.


menthel

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Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #2 on: 12 September, 2017, 10:35:43 am »
I have to agree (not that anyone would care) that an Audax is an organised event. I think the differentiation to be made though is that it is not a fixed route sportive. I wonder if more people would understand it as orienteering but on bikes?

Karla

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Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #3 on: 12 September, 2017, 10:49:43 am »

That said, I think the reporting (or the research behind it) is bad in this case. When people read 'organised event' I guess they think a signed sportive and I can't imagine it's going to be easy to explain Audax in the article they want to write in this case. The reality is with Free Routing there is no case of, they should not have been there.

How would you have reported it differently?  In a way that doesn't spend lengthy column inches informing people about the niceties of a minority sport they don't care about?

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #4 on: 12 September, 2017, 10:59:46 am »
"Although the A999 was not part of the recommended route, riders were free to take whatever route they chose between the start and finish points."
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Karla

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Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #5 on: 12 September, 2017, 11:11:22 am »
What would be the point of putting that in the article, and do you really expect the journos to read the fine detail of the AUK regs? 

paul851

Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #6 on: 12 September, 2017, 11:13:39 am »
You did ask how it could be reported differently  ???


Paul

Karla

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Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #7 on: 12 September, 2017, 11:16:25 am »
Yes, in a way that you might expect from generalist journos to a general readership.  Expecting them to delve into that sort of stuff isn't realistic at all.

jiberjaber

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Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #8 on: 12 September, 2017, 11:17:56 am »
I was discussing this with my wife last night. It's interesting because I was taking Redlights stance and she was seeing it more from your stance. I do agree that there is no way of escaping it being an organised bike ride just because as piece of paper or something you agree to online says it is not.

That said, I think the reporting (or the research behind it) is bad in this case. When people read 'organised event' I guess they think a signed sportive and I can't imagine it's going to be easy to explain Audax in the article they want to write in this case. The reality is with Free Routing there is no case of, they should not have been there.

I see a comment on one of the updates where the guy has said, 'What were the authorities doing allowing an event at that time'. How would you explain to someone who is likely to have made his mind up that a cyclist is not restricted to riding in daylight hours!

Following my comments from Saturday when I was very tired I have since realised that local knowledge would suggest the A15 is a perfectly viable option at that time of the night and as some pointed out this could just as well have been the B1188.



I suspect there is a case for controlling the narrative from the onset.  Maybe taking onboard some lessons from the recent unfortunate occurrences on other events (IPWR, TCR, etc  :'( )

Perhaps a standard press release could be created that says something like: Audax UK is aware of an incident involving X riders on Y Date. adding in similar 'can't release further details till the relatives have been informed' words to that which the Police used and then explaining what an Audax is in a couple of easy to use paragraphs.  Then the Journos have something to use rather than making it up from a 2 min Google search for 'organised cycle rides'

I know there are a few professionals in the communications area who are active in AUK who perhaps could be persuaded to help draft something which could then be used. 

There are a lot of formal (to a greater or lesser degree) 'audax clubs' who use social media... as the ACME token amature 'social media manager' I've kept a radio silence since hearing the news as I just don't know what might or might not be used associated with the reporting of this.  ???
Regards,

Joergen

Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #9 on: 12 September, 2017, 11:21:03 am »
I simply wouldn't have written the dumb little article. All it has done is sow confusion.

jiberjaber

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Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #10 on: 12 September, 2017, 11:25:44 am »
I simply wouldn't have written the dumb little article. All it has done is sow confusion.

I agree, but if there was something like the excellent LEL press stuff which gave the story LEL wanted published and then a bit of a quick FAQ boiler plate stuff wouldn't that be better than reacting to a dumb article after teh event... perhaps it wouldn't stop the dumb article, but without getting it out first who knows?
Regards,

Joergen

Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #11 on: 12 September, 2017, 11:31:13 am »
Yeah, LiamFitz was superb in getting positive stories out about LEL. We had tremendous and positive local coverage which had prompted some people to come out and watch the event happen.

It's a lot of work though, and much harder when there isn't a specific event to base it on. And you need to do the work beforehand. It's too late once there's a collision. The collision becomes the story; not the cycling.

Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #12 on: 12 September, 2017, 11:32:52 am »

That said, I think the reporting (or the research behind it) is bad in this case. When people read 'organised event' I guess they think a signed sportive and I can't imagine it's going to be easy to explain Audax in the article they want to write in this case. The reality is with Free Routing there is no case of, they should not have been there.

How would you have reported it differently?  In a way that doesn't spend lengthy column inches informing people about the niceties of a minority sport they don't care about?
In my bold I was trying to say that it would not be possible to get it across without an article pretty much dedicated to the subject (although even then people might not really get it, riding at night/tired is dangerous etc).

I'm obviously not the best at getting things across in writing hence I rarely bother offering an opinion.  (I don't mean that to sound as woe is me as it does either :-) )

I have to say that I agree with Alwyn at this point. Most of what I have read is pretty awful reporting but that might just be due to me having a closer association with the incident in this case.

I do often feel that peoples need for instant news means that accuracy and thoroughness are not of any priority and as an example of that I go back to this quote in one of the articles which I have read over a couple of times and I still can't see any value other then a bit of sensationalism in that

'An eyewitness, who was heading to Lincoln to work, said: “It was difficult to see but there appeared to be a few vehicles in the distance. It was hard to make out how many vehicles were involved but I could see a white van, but this could have been a police van.'

Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #13 on: 12 September, 2017, 12:31:25 pm »
I suspect there is a case for controlling the narrative from the onset.  Maybe taking onboard some lessons from the recent unfortunate occurrences on other events (IPWR, TCR, etc  :'( )

Perhaps a standard press release could be created that says something like: Audax UK is aware of an incident involving X riders on Y Date. adding in similar 'can't release further details till the relatives have been informed' words to that which the Police used and then explaining what an Audax is in a couple of easy to use paragraphs.  Then the Journos have something to use rather than making it up from a 2 min Google search for 'organised cycle rides'


This is a sensible suggestion.  Has any public statement been made on behalf of either AUK or Tomsk?  Not doing so is giving busy journalists the opportunity to report badly, to the detriment of audaxing

Martin

Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #14 on: 12 September, 2017, 12:32:14 pm »
The first thing I did when I saw the link was check the description "Easy night navigation on A and B roads" to me that's perfect as that's where I'd prefer to ride but some ill-informed casual reader....

Not a crap article by the BBC just not that well informed; how did the driver know "riders shouldn't have been on that road"? there's a difference between shouldn't and weren't supposed.

AUK calendar events are of course organised events, they are advertised, open to the public; risk assessed and insured. Perms maybe drifting more towards a private excursion?

mattc

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Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #15 on: 12 September, 2017, 12:38:51 pm »
I don't know this event, or the route, or the A15; but from every account I've read here (and other social meeja), it's a pretty safe road to cycle on at many times of the week. Certainly so 1am-3am ish.

In which case, does it matter that the organiser may arguably have "sent them" down that particular road? It's definitely legal to ride there. Just as it was legal to ride on the road where Mike Hall was killed.
Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Phil W

Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #16 on: 12 September, 2017, 12:41:27 pm »
I dont think there was any attempt at accuracy in the headline "They shouldn't have been there".  It was a deliberatel sensationalist misleading heading.  I see they've expanded the heading now with a bit more detail. But still, the headline was deliberately meant to be provocative.

The headline "Cyclists were heading down A15 at quiet time of night, as is their right" wouldn't get them quite the same number of clicks.

Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #17 on: 12 September, 2017, 12:43:18 pm »
I dont think there was any attempt at accuracy in the headline "They shouldn't have been there".  It was deliberate sensationalist misleading heading.  I see they've expanded the heading now with a bit more detail. But still, the headline was deliberately meant to be provocative.

Exactly. And the use of quotes makes it sound like a quote from somewhere, however it is not attributed anywhere and neither of the BBC articles contain that text.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #18 on: 12 September, 2017, 12:52:14 pm »
You don't need to explain audax, you just need a press release or similar that prevents "they weren't meant to be there," which most people will read as "cyclists aren't allowed on that road".
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #19 on: 12 September, 2017, 02:20:36 pm »
I don't know this event, or the route, or the A15; but from every account I've read here (and other social meeja), it's a pretty safe road to cycle on at many times of the week. Certainly so 1am-3am ish.

In which case, does it matter that the organiser may arguably have "sent them" down that particular road? It's definitely legal to ride there. Just as it was legal to ride on the road where Mike Hall was killed.

Having ridden on a brevet the road that Mike Hall was killed on and the Flatlands multiple times on trike, the A15 compared to what Mike was riding on is like a super surfaced lane.

It's interesting that there's an assumption that night riding on lands is safe but main roads not. Again my experience of doing a stupid number of out at night brevets is that the main roads are actually safer. Wherever you are riding you can't factor in what other road users may or may not do, hence my fractured clavicle from an RTA before last years Cracker Swamp 1200 in Florida last year.

redfalo

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Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #20 on: 12 September, 2017, 04:19:54 pm »
as you guys are discussing the reporting about the crash, I'm crossreferencing the email I wrote to the author of said article. (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=104712.msg2207455#msg2207455).
Depending on her response, I will write a blog post about the matter.


"Hi Holly,

I’m a colleague of yours working as a journalist with xxx. I’m writing to you with regard to your article on LinconshireLive headlined “They shouldn’t have been there” about the crash on the A15 in the early hours of Sunday morning. (http://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/local-news/they-shouldnt-been-there-cyclists-455755)

I was a participant of the ride, and was probably one of the first cyclists rocking up at the police road block.

You may already be familiar with the event the riders took part. I was a long distance bike ride from Great Dunmow in Essex to Goole and back organized under the auspices of Audax UK and Audax Club Paris (ACP). http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/17-549/   It’s wasn’t a timed race, but an endurance ride with a time limit of 40 hours for 606 kilometers (377 miles). We left Essex at 6am on Saturday, and had to be back by Sunday, 10pm.
Around 100 people had signed up for the ride.

Some people may think doing such long bike rides is a bit odd. But in fact it’s an activity with a very long heritage. At the root is a 1200 km (745 miles) ride that is organized every four years by Audax Club Paris. This event runs from Paris to Brest and back to Paris and was first run in 1891. It is older than the modern Olympic games (1896) and the Tour de France (1903). These days, it is run very four years, and about 6000 people from all over the world are on the start line (my account on the 2015 edition is available here: https://cycling-intelligence.com/2015/11/25/87-very-special-hours-my-pbp-2015/) Every year, Audax UK organizes hundreds of rides like the Flatlands 600 , and has thousands of participants. With the growing popularity of cycling, number are increasing.

The ethos of Audax rides is a bit different than bike races or so called “sportives”. Self-sustainability is at the core. The ride is not sign-posted, and riders cannot expect any help or support from the organizer en route.  There is a suggested route, but every participant is free to take any legal road. The only requirement is to visit the pre-defined control points and collect a proof of passage. The route given by the organizer is merely advisory.

Against this backdrop, I’m a bit puzzled by the claim in the article saying “ they should not have been on the road,” which is referenced to the BBC.  It is true that the A15 was not part of the recommended route, and the police suggested it as an alternative to the B road closed after the fatal accident between a car and a pedestrian. But from the organiser’s point of view, every rider who wanted to take the A15 was free to do so. In fact, the organiser’s route notes explicitly mention the road . (“The A15 might be a viable and shorter route in the middle of the night. “ http://www.aukweb.net/routes/549r.zip , in the file dubbed “INFO”)

I, for instance, had long decided to ride on the A15. Under UK law, it is perfectly legal to ride your bike on this road. (Hence the police suggested it as an alternative.)  While it surely not pleasant to ride on it during day time because of many fast cars, it was absolutely deserted at night. I joined it in Lincoln at around 3:45 am and reached the road block 4:23am. Maybe 3 or 4 vehicles passed me, and as there was no oncoming traffic, they easily could use the middle of the road or the other lane without having to slow down at all. The road is straight, and visibility was good at that time, as it was a clear night with no rain. Moreover, it is common practice among long distance cyclists to have at least two really good rear lights, and many wear reflective vests and have reflective tape attached to mudguards and helmets. Like almost all cyclists, I’m also a motorist, and I can’t really comprehend how it is possible to run a group of four cyclists riding as a group – they must have been lighted like a Christmas tree.

I would like to point out these issues to the BBC colleague making the claim that victims of the crash “should not have been on the road”. The problem with this assertion is not  that it is not true. Between the lines, one could also read it as blaming the victims. I’m sure that’s not the intention of the claim, but the cursory reader may still take one the message that it was the cyclist’s own fault, since they should not have been on the road.

I would really appreciate if you sent me a link to the BBC story your claim is based on. I also would highly appreciate if you considered tweaking the headline and the claim in your article.
Many thanks and best regards
Olaf" 
If you can't convince, confuse.

https://cycling-intelligence.com/ - my blog on cycling, long distances and short ones

Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #21 on: 12 September, 2017, 04:31:40 pm »
Well done for taking the time to do that!  Hope she responds favourably.

Karla

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Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #22 on: 12 September, 2017, 05:03:40 pm »
I must admit, half of it's unnecessary and if I were the journo I'd chuck it.  Brevity, people, brevity!

Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #23 on: 12 September, 2017, 05:20:17 pm »
I must admit, half of it's unnecessary and if I were the journo I'd chuck it.  Brevity, people, brevity!

Harsh, but I won't deny that, on one level, I thought the same. 
But he is a top journo in real life so he might know what the best approach is with a comrade.

Tomsk

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Re: "private excursion"
« Reply #24 on: 12 September, 2017, 06:40:04 pm »
Has any public statement been made on behalf of either AUK or Tomsk?  Not doing so is giving busy journalists the opportunity to report badly, to the detriment of audaxing

AUK's General Secretary has put out a very sensibly worded statement yesterday regarding the incident, long distance cycling in general and AUK's ethos. I've sent it to whoever in the media has asked me to comment.