Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => Food & Drink => Topic started by: Manotea on 21 February, 2013, 11:27:13 pm

Title: The Bread Thread
Post by: Manotea on 21 February, 2013, 11:27:13 pm
I've fired up the Panasonic  for the first time in ages to make a stonking great big seeded white loaf. I'm looking forward to the morning when it's cooled down.

Looks like the ketogenic diet is going to be on hold for a while...   
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 22 February, 2013, 09:35:55 pm
We've been firing up our Panasonic three or four times every week for at least 9 years. It's one of the best investments we've ever made. The bread is invariably excellent and costs a fraction of the inferior product that you pick up from the supermarket or baker's shop. The best thing to complement this bread, in my view, is the Seville orange marmalade that I make. I just wish I had the wherewithal to keep and milk a cow so that I could make my own butter.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: dasmoth on 23 February, 2013, 11:59:29 am
My first attempt at a sourdough loaf is currently rising!  Finger crossed...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: orienteer on 23 February, 2013, 02:56:05 pm
Crossed with what?

Usually bake a half wholemeal/half seeded white loaf, but currently trying 25/75 mixture for a change. 40 min to go...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 February, 2013, 11:22:42 am
I got a bread machine a couple of weeks ago. Having mulled it over for some time and dismissed it on grounds of space (small kitchen) and having that rare thing, a nearby bakery that sells decent bread, I found by chance a machine for only £12 in a charity shop. Bargain! And indeed it is. So far I'm making white loaves in the week (cos that what Little Cudzo likes in his sandwiches) and wholemeal at the weekend (cos that what his parents like), nothing more ambitious yet, but I've noticed an oddity: the wholemeal loaves rise at the sides but not in the middle - at first I thought this was due to old yeast, but it's not - and the white ones rise ok, but the mixing hook always gets stuck inside the loaf! I can't work out why this happens with white loaves only, but in any case, both types taste pretty good.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: jogler on 24 February, 2013, 12:05:49 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mflw8-BZdV0
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: clarion on 24 February, 2013, 12:29:42 pm
Is he wearing a cottage loaf on his head?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 24 February, 2013, 01:12:32 pm
Cudzo, try adding a little vitamin c to your wholemeal loaves.
Science - http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2007/nov/24/foodanddrink.baking13
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 February, 2013, 07:19:52 pm
Thanks - I'll add vit C to my shopping list.

I think I'll try warmer water too. I see that recipe says "warm water", the instructions with my machine say "cool water, 20C" which was puzzling me since 20C doesn't seem like cool water to me (unless I was having a bath in it...).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gaston Lagaffe on 25 February, 2013, 08:22:51 pm
I got a bread machine a couple of weeks ago. Having mulled it over for some time and dismissed it on grounds of space (small kitchen) and having that rare thing, a nearby bakery that sells decent bread, I found by chance a machine for only £12 in a charity shop. Bargain! And indeed it is. So far I'm making white loaves in the week (cos that what Little Cudzo likes in his sandwiches) and wholemeal at the weekend (cos that what his parents like), nothing more ambitious yet, but I've noticed an oddity: the wholemeal loaves rise at the sides but not in the middle - at first I thought this was due to old yeast, but it's not - and the white ones rise ok, but the mixing hook always gets stuck inside the loaf! I can't work out why this happens with white loaves only, but in any case, both types taste pretty good.


We've got a Panasonic, and it started doing this intermittently at first, especially on the timer function.  A google suggests it's a not an uncommon phenomenon.  Panasonic blame the flour. I make a 50/50 mix on the basic program.  It's really annoying as it made perfect HUGE loaves for about 2 years, now they are either dense but a nice small shape, or sunk in the middle.  The wholemeal program is a disaster!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: dasmoth on 27 February, 2013, 01:07:21 pm
My first attempt at a sourdough loaf is currently rising!  Finger crossed...

The first one ended up slightly under-baked and doughy.  But had another go yesterday and 'twas nommy.  This may have to become a regular occurrence (especially if I want to keep the bowl of yeast in the airing cupboard under control!)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pickled Onion on 27 February, 2013, 01:21:35 pm
My first attempt at a sourdough loaf is currently rising!  Finger crossed...

The first one ended up slightly under-baked and doughy.  But had another go yesterday and 'twas nommy.  This may have to become a regular occurrence (especially if I want to keep the bowl of yeast in the airing cupboard under control!)
It gets even better over the first few loaves. And yes, you have to bake mostly daily, unless you want to do the throw away half and replenish thing, which seems a bit wasteful.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pickled Onion on 27 February, 2013, 01:25:37 pm
We've got a Panasonic, and it started doing this intermittently at first, especially on the timer function.  A google suggests it's a not an uncommon phenomenon.  Panasonic blame the flour. I make a 50/50 mix on the basic program.  It's really annoying as it made perfect HUGE loaves for about 2 years, now they are either dense but a nice small shape, or sunk in the middle.  The wholemeal program is a disaster!

I don't own a panasonic, but of the machines I've had the wholemeal program has been rubbish, and had better results for wholemeal bread from the standard white setting (+ darker setting). Sinking in the middle can also be from having too much water in the mix.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pickled Onion on 27 February, 2013, 01:32:09 pm
Thanks - I'll add vit C to my shopping list.

I think I'll try warmer water too. I see that recipe says "warm water", the instructions with my machine say "cool water, 20C" which was puzzling me since 20C doesn't seem like cool water to me (unless I was having a bath in it...).

You can get vitamin C powder - pure ascorbic acid - but it's sold "under the counter" as it were, you have to be looked up and down by the pharmacist because apparently it's used as a cutting agent by drug dealers.

The tablets contain all sorts of other stuff as well as ascorbic acid, but probably not enough to worry about in a whole loaf.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gaston Lagaffe on 27 February, 2013, 01:34:39 pm
We've got a Panasonic, and it started doing this intermittently at first, especially on the timer function.  A google suggests it's a not an uncommon phenomenon.  Panasonic blame the flour. I make a 50/50 mix on the basic program.  It's really annoying as it made perfect HUGE loaves for about 2 years, now they are either dense but a nice small shape, or sunk in the middle.  The wholemeal program is a disaster!

I don't own a panasonic, but of the machines I've had the wholemeal program has been rubbish, and had better results for wholemeal bread from the standard white setting (+ darker setting). Sinking in the middle can also be from having too much water in the mix.

Thanks I'll give that a go
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 27 February, 2013, 01:47:40 pm
Thanks - I'll add vit C to my shopping list.

I think I'll try warmer water too. I see that recipe says "warm water", the instructions with my machine say "cool water, 20C" which was puzzling me since 20C doesn't seem like cool water to me (unless I was having a bath in it...).

You can get vitamin C powder - pure ascorbic acid - but it's sold "under the counter" as it were, you have to be looked up and down by the pharmacist because apparently it's used as a cutting agent by drug dealers.

The tablets contain all sorts of other stuff as well as ascorbic acid, but probably not enough to worry about in a whole loaf.
Holland & Barrett do jars of Vit C without having to ask for it.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 February, 2013, 10:31:14 pm
Thanks - I'll add vit C to my shopping list.

I think I'll try warmer water too. I see that recipe says "warm water", the instructions with my machine say "cool water, 20C" which was puzzling me since 20C doesn't seem like cool water to me (unless I was having a bath in it...).

You can get vitamin C powder - pure ascorbic acid - but it's sold "under the counter" as it were, you have to be looked up and down by the pharmacist because apparently it's used as a cutting agent by drug dealers.

The tablets contain all sorts of other stuff as well as ascorbic acid, but probably not enough to worry about in a whole loaf.
Holland & Barrett do jars of Vit C without having to ask for it.
But that's a health food shop, none of those hippies would be doing drugs, surely?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: dasmoth on 03 March, 2013, 07:35:17 pm
I've just discovered BakeryBits (http://bakerybits.co.uk/).  Do NOT click that link if you're already short of storage space in the kitchen.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 12 March, 2013, 09:38:45 pm
Proving baskets - discuss....
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: dasmoth on 12 March, 2013, 11:45:09 pm
Proving baskets - discuss....

I'm kind-of after one...

Emily (rightly) asks where we'll keep it, though!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 12 March, 2013, 11:54:42 pm
We do half-and=half loaves mostly: 25 grammes while flour, 250 of wholemeal. Occasionally w do granary.

Our paddle (panasonic) gets stuck in the bread every time now, but we must have made more than 1500 loaves now. I don't mind. It usually tears a bit out of the middle o the loaf, but I eat that bit hot.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 13 March, 2013, 07:36:35 am
Proving baskets - discuss....

Rather spherical.

What is it that it achieves that a plastic bowl covered with a lightly oiled piece of cling film does not? 

I always used to cover with cloth because that's what I always did, but there is no detectable difference. (For the last 10 years I haven't had to cover with anything, thanks to my oven, but that's another story)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Russell on 13 March, 2013, 11:10:28 am
We bake several loaves a week and have done for many many years.  We mainly bake the recipe from the Panasonic book that uses 350 wholemeal and 150 strong white.  The paddle rarely gets stuck with that recipe.

R
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 March, 2013, 11:24:10 am
We do half-and=half loaves mostly: 25 grammes while flour, 250 of wholemeal. Occasionally w do granary.

Our paddle (panasonic) gets stuck in the bread every time now, but we must have made more than 1500 loaves now. I don't mind. It usually tears a bit out of the middle o the loaf, but I eat that bit hot.
25 grammes while the flour does what?  :D
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 March, 2013, 10:53:24 pm
Tonight's loaf is the best bread so far. Because: more than enough yeast and a little bit of Vit C!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: RJ on 14 March, 2013, 01:18:56 pm
I've stopped using our bread machine.

Instead, I mix 1000g of flour's worth of dough in a big mixing bowl using a hand mixer and dough hooks, and then use Dan Lepard's 3-x-10-second-kneads-in-half-an-hour method (do just that; leave another 40 minutes or so to rise; knock-back and shape*; leave to prove another 40-60 minutes**; bake ~20 minutes @240°C (220°C fan), then reduce the heat to 200°C (180°C) for another ~20 minutes until done***).

* - I divide between 2 large loaf tins, lightly greased and with a spinkle of semolina in the bottom; and shape by flattening each portion of dough into a rough rectangle and roll like a swiss roll

** - I slash the top of the dough with a serrated knife; not just decorative - it seems to help the bread bake and rise evenly in the oven

*** - until it looks done, basically.  In our oven, set at those temperatures, 18 minutes + 18 minutes works


This is a really easy way to make bread - and less faff than the bread machine because you get 2 big loaves for one lot of effort.  If you have a big oven, you could get even more bang for your minimal kneading buck.

50:50 white:wholemeal is my basic everyday mix, sometimes substituting some rye or spelt for some of the wholemeal.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: ferret on 14 March, 2013, 01:26:17 pm
I've just managed to get my sourdough starter started, it took several attempts but "Stanley" is now bubbling away quite contentedly, now just have to make a bit of time to do my first sourdough loaf :) 
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 14 March, 2013, 03:17:04 pm
I too do the 'Lepard method', although it's usually lucky if it gets 2 sets of 20 kneads these days, and I've not noticed much difference.

Re: the proving baskets, I was wondering if it would help with my sourdough which doesn't have any pockets in it. However it's already left to prove in a bowl, but maybe baking it on a sheet instead of in a loaf tin would help generate some air pockets?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 14 March, 2013, 07:45:13 pm
Re: the proving baskets, I was wondering if it would help with my sourdough which doesn't have any pockets in it. However it's already left to prove in a bowl, but maybe baking it on a sheet instead of in a loaf tin would help generate some air pockets?

Is the dough wet enough?  I think the 'holey' breads usually have a lot more water than normal breads. 
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 23 March, 2013, 11:48:55 am
At some point this weekend, I'll bake my first loaf. Perusing a few recipes, it seems that a strong flour is best. Whereas my cupboard contains not-strong but good quality white flour, and some nice wholemeal flour, also not strong. Safe to proceed, or would I be better getting some strong?

I also haz ascorbic acid.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: dasmoth on 23 March, 2013, 11:52:24 am
Strong == high gluten content.  I think a loaf made without any strong flour will be, at best, "close textured".  50% strong, 50% normal is probably workable (indeed, I think that works better for pizzas than all-strong).

You could probably make a decent loaf of soda-bread with not-strong flour.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 23 March, 2013, 11:59:50 am
I've made wholemeal only before now and it was edible, it'll just be a bit bigger and springier if you use strong too.
I like Felicity Cloake's articles where she's done all the experimentation for you.... http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2010/jun/10/how-to-bake-wholemeal-bread?INTCMP=SRCH
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 23 March, 2013, 01:33:19 pm
I am currently making this http://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/recipes/black-rye-bread/ to use up the rye flour that I've had sitting around for a while. The treacle was well out of date and I completely ignored the 'dispose of at end date' instructions on the lid but I'm sure it'll be fine...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 23 March, 2013, 04:55:04 pm
Thanks dasmoth & Mrs. Pingu.

Can you point me to a simple Dan Lepard recipe that requires only white flour - I have now acquired strong. As above I do also have wholemeal flour but it's not the strong variety. I have all the other stuff, yeast (Allinson's quick variety) etc.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 23 March, 2013, 05:14:19 pm
Not Dan Lepard but this is probably worth a look

http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/paul_hollywoods_bloomer_84636

I've not tried his methods but intend to.  I have all the ingredients for the his malt loaf recipe downstairs.  If I have time tomorrow evening   :D
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 23 March, 2013, 05:33:47 pm
Thanks - I see that I'm low on olive oil so I'll try this one I think - linked to from yours - that uses butter instead:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/paul_hollywoods_crusty_83536

They both use rather a lot of salt! What function does that serve in baking?

I like the idea of kneading with oil rather than flour, might give that a go too.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 23 March, 2013, 05:49:21 pm
For my wholemeal I use normal wholemeal with strong white,  you don't have to have strong w/meal.
My everyday bread uses Sainsburys Seeded Wholemeal bread flour. To this I add yeast, Vit c and about 40 ml oil (i have hazelnut & walnut oil for baking).
I don't use as much salt as is in the recipes, I have always assumed it's a chef thing.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pickled Onion on 23 March, 2013, 08:10:43 pm
If you use soft white flour, ie not strong flour, the bread tends to taste like stale biscuits. Wholemeal has a lot more flavour so it doesn't seem to affect how it tastes, just how well it rises.

The function of the salt is to temper the action of the yeast so that it rises enough but doesn't get carried away. I forgot the yeast salt recently and the dough rose right up and lifted the lid of the bread machine - managed to rescue it but the bread tasted pretty crap. Two teaspoons of salt sounds like a lot but that's for a kilogram loaf so there's not actually much per slice.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: orienteer on 24 March, 2013, 10:13:50 am
Presumably you mean you forgot the salt rather than the yeast.

I forgot the yeast once, although the result was edible it was pretty solid.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pickled Onion on 24 March, 2013, 10:18:47 am
Opps! yes, the salt!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 24 March, 2013, 09:35:21 pm
Still haven't made a loaf - had difficulty settling on a recipe so put it off. However, I did make nommy maple and blueberry scones. And more brownies...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Eccentrica Gallumbits on 25 March, 2013, 02:13:12 pm
One of my colleagues has just opened a deli, with her husband. Today she brought in a dozen of the weekend's unsold loaves and sold them to us for £1 each. I bought an onion loaf and a French wholemeal. Half the onion loaf is gone already.  :smug:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: ferret on 25 March, 2013, 05:36:39 pm
Oh deary me, my sour dough bread was a complete disaster it failed miserably and tasted disgusting, still the dogs liked it :)
think I'll stick to normal yeast in future   
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 March, 2013, 11:29:40 am
The white loaf that's in the machine right now has risen almost over the top! I did add a whole sachet of dried yeast, which is (at least) what they recommend for a wholemeal, and white always rises a bit more. Should keep us fed!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 26 March, 2013, 01:10:31 pm
Hmmm. I bought some Allinsons Seeded flour when Sainsbury's Seeded Wholemeal was out of stock, not realising the Allinsons was white flour.
The Sainsburys states 1 tsp of yeast whereas the Allinsons quoted a whole sachet, which I thought was a bit much, so I went for 1.5tsp being as I mixed with 50% wholemeal flour.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: ferret on 28 March, 2013, 02:29:46 pm
Does any body have a good used recipe for dairy free bread,preferably one for the machine.  I know they're out there but it's knowing which ones work, thought I might be able to save some time and money if some one one here has one that works, TIA :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pickled Onion on 28 March, 2013, 02:35:47 pm
Isn't bread normally dairy free?

Standard bread-machine recipe:
300g liquid 500g flour 2tsp yeast 2tsp salt
where the liquid is either all water or includes 10-20g of oil (olive or sunflower)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: ferret on 28 March, 2013, 02:57:47 pm
the recipe I follow includes milk powder and butter, I already use olive oil instead of the butter but not sure what to replace the milk powder with,
actually just looking at the book it's there to enhance the flavour, increase nutritional value, so looks like I could leave it out.
All this lactose free stuff is new to me one of our boys is intolerant, steep learning curve ahead:)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 28 March, 2013, 03:14:42 pm
Just omit the milk powder.
There was a fad for adding milk powder to breads in the early days of home baking in the US. I've not found that it makes that much difference to a standard loaf.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 April, 2013, 12:10:24 pm
I made my first rye bread at Easter. Actually it's only 3/7 rye, the rest is white wheat flour. It looked strangely lumpy on top but the texture inside, and the taste, are good. I'll try another one with more rye.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: JonBuoy on 05 April, 2013, 05:49:58 pm
I have had a couple of goes at making rye bread and it has not been all that successful.  Which recipe did you use ?

Last weekend I made Dark Ale and Walnut Bread (http://www.bakingmad.com/recipes/breadmaker/dark-ale-and-walnut-bread) - it was very tasty.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 05 April, 2013, 06:40:16 pm
I just used the standard recipe for my bread machine, replacing some of the wheat flour with rye. Nothing else. I've since made another which was 4/7 rye (funny proportions cos of the way the recipe is measured, in cups - provided with the machine - I think it must be a Leftpondian manufacture, but it works). The 4/7 actually came out a bit better.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ewan Houzami on 06 April, 2013, 12:12:21 am
I've also decided to ditch the bread machine as 1) I can pretty much 'do' a machine-sized loaf in one hit 2) the cuboid shape doesn't satisfy my rustic sensibilities, and 3) I don't have enough room to keep that many kitchen gadgets. (My homebrew kit now takes up an entire cupboard...) So today, I made my first 1kg Lepard inspired 50% white/50% wholemeal loaf, with a couple of short kneads and a 2 hour rise. Not having a suitable bread tin, it went in my fake Le Creuset casserole pot. Turned out lovely, all stretchy gluten patterns in the wonderfully wobbly and mis-shapen crust, and just right for having the remains of Monday's roast lamb slammed between some slices with some mayo and tomato.

Wanting to make a rye loaf next, and I've discovered that my local supermarkets no longer stock rye flour (and my local Lidl no longer sells their spectacularly-valued and humungously-sized rye loaves). It's always the way isn't it? As soon as I find something interesting or tasty in a supermarket they stop selling it. I'm sure I can track down some Doves Farm rye flour from somewhere, but sometimes the faff involved outweighs the point of making your own.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 06 April, 2013, 08:58:33 am
I found some interesting flour I wanted to try on the internet but they only sell through Amazon, and I don't really want to buy 4 x 1.5kg bags at a time.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ewan Houzami on 21 April, 2013, 05:45:01 pm
Oh Happy Day! My local Tesco is now stocking Doves Farm organic rye flour. Must be the Hollywood effect.

I've been reading a bit about sourdough, and have just made my 'levain' (or 'starter'). Seems like it's the bread equivalent of brewing lambic ales, in that both use airborne yeasts. Does the lactobacillus that gives the sour taste do good things for your gut also - like natural yogurt does?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: sas on 21 April, 2013, 07:46:12 pm
Does the lactobacillus that gives the sour taste do good things for your gut also - like natural yogurt does?
I think it's safe to say they won't be alive after being baked in an oven at 200C.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ewan Houzami on 21 April, 2013, 08:14:48 pm
Aaah yes...  ;D
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 April, 2013, 01:26:00 am
After a couple of days of commercial bread and takeaway sandwiches, it's so good to get home and eat my own bread.  :thumbsup: Hmm - not so long ago I'd have been perfectly happy with supermarket bread - I've spoiled myself.  :-\ Still, it is good to eat it. And bake it. Oh dear, that's why I'm still up at this silly hour. Bed now!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pickled Onion on 26 April, 2013, 03:23:52 pm
Forgot to put the machine on last night, enough homemade bread from yesterday for the shallot's sarnies, crap plastic bread from tesco for me  :(
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 27 April, 2013, 10:23:33 pm
I made an ale and oat loaf but replaced the pale ale with stout. Overcooked it a little bit and the taste is quite strong (it uses black treacle aswell) but it's delicious. The recipe was from the Paul Hollywood book I've been given. I don't use as much salt as he says though.
Like Goldilocks I don't use a bread machine but prefer the thumping/ workout the kneading gives me.
I'm the only one who eats bread in my house so I get it all to myself  :thumbsup:(although this isn't always a good thing).  :hand:

Anyone else make soda bread? Must be one of the easiest things to make and to be honest I can't tell the difference between using "proper" buttermilk or vinegar and milk substitute. Great if you're in a hurry. 
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ewan Houzami on 04 May, 2013, 12:35:43 am
All in it's taken nearly two weeks from start to finish  :o, but I've just had the first slice cut from a great big, domed and crusty slab of airy loveliness, that's my first rye and white sourdough loaf. The starter is quite vinegary which I don't mind, and I probably need to rebalance it somehow to get more of a lactic taste, but I think I'm finally getting the hang of this breadmaking lark.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 04 May, 2013, 03:43:21 am
What method did you use to make the sourdough bread?  Am using a few internet versions and can seem to get the bread to be fluffy and light.  The only thing I can think is that I use flour on my hands and worktop to keep the bread from sticking.  Have tried proving the dough at room temp, the airing cupboard and the fridge.

Any hints?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ewan Houzami on 04 May, 2013, 11:48:53 am
What method did you use to make the sourdough bread?  Am using a few internet versions and can seem to get the bread to be fluffy and light.  The only thing I can think is that I use flour on my hands and worktop to keep the bread from sticking.  Have tried proving the dough at room temp, the airing cupboard and the fridge.

typo for 'can't' ? Maybe it's all relative as a rye loaf is never going to be as light as a white, but it compared to stuff I'd bought.

I reckon it was about 200g of pure rye starter, 300g rye, 300g strong white, 2tsp salt, a bit of sugar and enough water to make a kneading consistency (scales are bust, so I'm estimating!) I omitted Vit C as my thinking was that there are enough acids present in the starter to feed the yeast. kneaded for fiveish minutes using the occasional teaspoon of extra virgin smeared on the worktop to prevent sticking, as my understanding is that having a fat in the mix helps the bread keep for longer, and I like the glossiness it gives the dough. Proofed for a couple of hours, folded and then shaped into a zeppelin, and put onto an oiled baking tray as I don't have a suitably sized receptacle. Not being the firmest of doughs it spread outwards, but still gained height (warmish kitchen for a couple of hours). I bunged it in the oven when I saw big bubbles opening near the surface, and I possibly could have left it even longer but it was nearing bedtime!

So maybe a mish-mash of techniques, but I'm happy to experiment.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 04 May, 2013, 02:19:25 pm
Ah this is not a rye loaf just usually bread flour either white or wholemeal.

What I have found in the worktop that I use in lightly dimpled so seems to attract the dough.  The amount of oil I use seems to be alots as the surface is forever sticky.  Also I suspect that I'm under kneading the dough.  Am kneding by hand and trying to get the window paneing but seem to get the bread tearing when I get a fingerful of dough.

I suspect things might be better with a smooth surface.  I have a brushed stainless steel surround that I should flatten out and see if I can use that.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 04 May, 2013, 08:53:11 pm
Have found an unused stainless chimney hood.

(http://fotcad.com/image/cache/data/extrafile_24513-500x500.jpg)

Quick soak in bleach and tomorrow it will be ready to be used, well after I straightened it.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pickled Onion on 05 May, 2013, 01:49:19 pm
Just took my kenwood machine back under guarantee, the third one to fail in three years so I said no thank you to a direct replacement. I guess most people only use them once a week, they are just not built for daily use.

I have now just "fired up the panasonic" and await the results.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 06 May, 2013, 01:07:59 am
Done a quick wholemeal sourdough mix and have just noticed that I forgot the salt.  Oh well.

Did the kneading, but seem to tear the dough more than the window paining.  Decided to try the knead it a bit, leave it for 5 mins the knead again.  Its now in a cling film covered bowl till either tomorrow morning or if I stay up till the bread has grown to twice its size.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 06 May, 2013, 12:58:52 pm
The bread rose and was knocked back.  Have separated the dough in to two balls and cut chris cross in the top, and placed them in a pie tin.  The dough is still wet and has spread across the pan.

Will see what happens in several hours.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ewan Houzami on 07 May, 2013, 04:58:32 pm
My experience so far is like yours, in that sourdough comes out wetter hance gives a flatter loaf. I'll try another later this week, and see how dry I can make the dough.

Now I've had a look here (http://sourdough.com/forum/my-dough-too-wet-soft-and-doesnt-rise) I wonder if your starter is overripe. That said, the loaves in the pics look fine to me.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 07 May, 2013, 06:13:07 pm
Dumped the starter today.  maybe I'll make another but not for a while.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 26 May, 2013, 08:05:32 pm
I had a go at a sourdough loaf recently. Used rhubarb to start the starter and after three days it smelled foul. Continued with it and made the loaf and let it prove overnight (much longer than the recipe said). It was a wet dough, so I used a tin to bake it in to contain it. The loaf is a bit heavy and tastes cheesy but it's palatable enough. The semolina dusting tastes good.
Think next time I need to be more careful with the starter to make sure there's enough ooomph to make the air holes.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 04 June, 2013, 06:19:52 pm
Another go at a sourdough loaf and similar results to the first (ie a bit heavy). Don't really understand as the sourdough cakes I made a while back (using exactly the same method of starting) were fine.  Think I will start from scratch again, but not for a while as soda bread is so much easier.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 17 June, 2013, 11:58:52 pm
Today's bread rose and rose till it was pushing up the lid of the machine! I don't know why it rose so much, I didn't (consciously) do anything different...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 23 June, 2013, 10:54:15 am
Continuing to bake loaves a couple of times a week - current favourite is Dan Leppard's walnut loaf, with varying proportions of wholemeal and plain flour. Most excellent, esp the nommy roasted walnuts in the crust. Fancy trying spelt flour next. I also need to get it together to freeze some part-baked dough or even freeze some loaves, whatever is best.

How are you all storing your bread? We currently lack a bread bin but I think I need to get one.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 23 June, 2013, 11:05:43 am
Sliced into the freezer, usable instantly.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: woollypigs on 23 June, 2013, 12:44:24 pm
I'm on a mission to bake my mum's(well rather my dad's since it is he who bakes it) rye bread that has fed the family for over 25 years. The sour dough has been passed to many friends and family over the year. Sadly it will be too hard to transport a "starter pack" of sour dough over here from Denmark, without it starting to do its job.

The main problem is to find the right rye and flour over here. Getting the right cream and a cream that behaves like the cream in Denmark has caused a few not so good batches of my mums home made ice cream. So getting the right stuff is rather important.

I have asked over here on Ham flour power (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=73052.0) thread about it.

Multi grain bread is probably my starter to get used to the dough and our oven, which one would the panel recommend as a starter ?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 June, 2013, 01:17:49 pm
In what way is the cream in Denmark different? Perhaps you might find something similar in a polskish sklep - I've no idea if it will be what you're looking for, but their dairy products are certainly a bit different (and more various) than English ones.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: woollypigs on 23 June, 2013, 01:30:33 pm
I'm not a dairy specialist but it didn't fluff up right and didn't behave the way I'm used to in DK.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 23 June, 2013, 02:13:50 pm
Does anyone use a food mixer / dough maker for their bread?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: woollypigs on 23 June, 2013, 02:29:50 pm
My mum does and its call dad :-) I might do it for the rye bread since I'm told it is a good old workout. But I do like get my fingers dirty and doing the kneading.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 25 June, 2013, 07:15:24 pm
I think I've got a duff batch of yeast. This is the 2nd loaf of bread I've made that isn't rising properly the 2nd time :(
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 29 June, 2013, 04:47:30 pm
I've got a wholegrain sourdough starter but not enough wholemeal flour to make a loaf. I do have a bag of Wholegrain rye flour. Any good rye sourdough recipes I might be able to get away with?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pancho on 29 June, 2013, 04:54:21 pm
I bought two loaves from my daughters' school today. The pupils make bread every week and in the last week of the year do all night baking sessions so there's plenty to take home.

All fully hand made in an ancient old bake house with, I hadn't realised, a wood-fired oven. Tastes absolutely delicious. And the bakery smells gorgeous; wood smokey and bready.

The little ones spend a lot of Wednesdays collecting and chopping firewood. But it's well worth it.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 29 June, 2013, 10:00:26 pm
My local bakery used to use a charcoal oven till recently, then the father retired and I guess the son didn't fancy getting up so early each day and it was replaced with either electric or gas (not sure which). The bread doesn't taste the same, the charcoal loaves were fantastic.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: renard on 02 July, 2013, 11:08:43 am
Does anyone use a food mixer / dough maker for their bread?

We got a Kenwood Prospero food mixer at christmas and  I use it to make bread.  Still experimenting, but it does a grand job of kneading the dough with a dough hook.

The breads seem to rise a lot more than one I made with hand kneading, although I have switched to trying Paul Hollywood's recipes which seem to use a bit more yeast.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 02 July, 2013, 12:50:48 pm
So....I made my sourdough with a w/meal starter and 1:2 w/meal to rye flour for the dough. After reading the blog I posted on the flour power thread I thought that possibly the reason my sourdough never has holes in it was a)high protein flour 15%!! and/or b) not enough water.

Obviously because I used a different recipe with the rye flour I didn't know how much water to put in so I did it by feel and tried to go for the wet side.
The dough was very nicely full of holes after the first rise but I think I might have lost most of it when I tried to get it in the tin.
The resulting loaf - a few tiny holes, but nothing like sourdough typically looks like.

Oh, and stupidly when I made the dough I forgot to keep back some of the starter, so now I don't have a starter anymore  :'(
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 06 July, 2013, 01:42:46 pm
Too hot out there for me today. I'm staying mostly in until normality resumes. I've acquired some spelt flour. Any good recipes? Is it really as easy as my first couple of googlings suggest - hardly any kneading required? I also haz walnuts - would a walnut spelt loaf be nice?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 06 July, 2013, 02:01:16 pm
Actually I fancy this one:


http://www.sharphampark.com/about-spelt/spelt-recipes/sour-dough-with-dates-and-walnuts

But how do I make a leaven?

Quote
150g of a 50/50 spelt/wheat leaven

Edit: Oh. I see that if I wanted a leaven, I'd have had to start making it about a week ago. Bah.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 09 July, 2013, 10:49:50 pm
A bit of a success! Tried again at a sourdough loaf. Just mixed 25g of rye flour with 50g of water each day for five days and then used the starter (which had bubbled up nicely) to make the loaf. Used stoneground flour in the final part. The dough was quite wet and I think next time I'll use a tin, as this time it flattened a bit too much and the tin would help it keep shape. Tasty all the same, but the crust is a little too thick.
Onwards and upwards!!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 23 July, 2013, 08:41:08 am
Another success, this time with soda bread, adding a tbsp of black treacle to the mix. Absolutely superb taste and it went well with cheese (Leigh toaster) and a glass of stout. I could live on that!!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 23 July, 2013, 02:55:03 pm
soda bread

Ooh. Recipe?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: woollypigs on 23 July, 2013, 03:19:18 pm
I know its a sin to mention it here and I'm ready for the hounds.

But, I baked a loaf today with pre mixed flour packs where you just add a bit of water, throw it in the oven and then eat.  It is rather nice sure truly home made from scratch can only be better.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 23 July, 2013, 05:46:47 pm
OK Sergeant pluck (and anyone else), soda bread recipe I use.

500g flour (I use stoneground wholemeal, but have had good results with wholemeal and white mixed)
1 tsp bicarb of soda
1 tsp salt
420ml buttermilk (in place of buttermilk I put three tbsps of lemon juice in the jug and fill up to the 420ml mark. Leave five minutes for it to curdle, then use)

1. Mix  flour, bicarb and salt
2. Add buttermilk (or substitute), mix with wooden spoon to form a sticky dough
3. Flour a work surface, tip the dough out and roll it around to form it into a ball (not kneading it)
4. Flatten top slightly
5. Put on non stick baking tray and cut a cross into the flattened ball, cutting deep and opening the cross out a bit (this is so the inside bakes properly)
6. Leave for 30 minutes
7. Heat oven to 200C and cook for 30 minutes
8. Leave to cool completely

As an extra speciality, add 1 generous tbsp of black treacle to the dough at number 2, and mix well, you will need to add a small amount of extra flour. This is superb with stout and cheese.
I've also made variations with added honey and walnuts.
 
I would say it's a piece of cake to make but it's even easier than that!!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 23 July, 2013, 09:08:01 pm
I know its a sin to mention it here and I'm ready for the hounds.

But, I baked a loaf today with pre mixed flour packs where you just add a bit of water, throw it in the oven and then eat.  It is rather nice sure truly home made from scratch can only be better.

The Waitrose bread mixes are said to be very good although I haven't tried one.

OK Sergeant pluck (and anyone else), soda bread recipe I use.
/
I would say it's a piece of cake to make but it's even easier than that!!


Thanks! I'll be giving that a go in due course. And that reminds me, I still haven't made a cake.

5. Put on non stick baking tray and cut a cross into the flattened ball, cutting deep and opening the cross out a bit (this is so the inside bakes properly)

Interesting - I always do some cuts on my loaves (my latest ones are a mix of rye and white, getting a bit bored with my usual walnut / olives / dates variations) and I thought they were purely decorative. 
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 23 July, 2013, 09:19:15 pm
Anyone made hazelnut bread?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 27 July, 2013, 10:22:18 am
Anyone made hazelnut bread?

Mrs P, the thing is with adding nuts to dough is that it can be a little painful when kneading if done by hand so take care when doing so. I finely crush half the amount of nuts I am using (to give the dough the flavour) and keep the other half in big chunks (for the texture). For hazelnuts I'd toast the nuts first, gives a lovely flavour.
An advantage to using the soda bread recipe above is that, as no kneading is required, the problem doesn't exist in that type of loaf. I'd use a bit of honey aswell.
I've made both sorts of loaf and can recommend both.

Most important thing is ....... let us know how you get on       :thumbsup: 
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 27 July, 2013, 10:40:10 am
I know its a sin to mention it here and I'm ready for the hounds.

But, I baked a loaf today with pre mixed flour packs where you just add a bit of water, throw it in the oven and then eat.  It is rather nice sure truly home made from scratch can only be better.
I've not used one for decades, but we used to bake bread when we were on canal boat holidays using those. When our most experienced bread maker had her turn, she was generally impressed but decided to add some oil to the mix. I seem to remember the results were pretty good all week but the beer before hand might have helped! Our routine was to make the bread after breakfast with the aim of getting it cooked by about twelve, then go to the pub and return for bread and cheese lunch with the fresh loaf.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 27 July, 2013, 10:59:23 am
When I add nuts to bread, usually walnuts, I add them after I've kneaded the bread and left it to rest for an hour. Then I just knock the air out, flatten it, scatter walnuts, roll it up, flatten again, add more nuts, repeat maybe twice more. Then form the loaves and rest again before putting into the oven. So I don't knead with the nuts in.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 27 July, 2013, 07:06:01 pm
Nice tip, Sgt P, will try that way. My problem is that years ago I managed to draw blood on a viciously sharpened pumpkin seed whilst kneading and the memory has stuck with me since !!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 27 July, 2013, 07:27:37 pm
I did the same last time I made my walnut & raisin bread. I didn't find any hazelnut bread recipes that weren't more like a dessert so I'll take TEC's advice and try just bunging them in a wholemeal loaf...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 02 September, 2013, 03:51:36 pm
Back from hollybobs with a sneaky extra day and have researched sourdough again, I am determined to get it properly holey this year!
After reading Whitley, Lepard and the aforementioned blog I have this afternoon started a Rye starter and once that's going I'm going to try Whitely's Cromarty Cob recipe. If I don't get on with that I might try something else. And now I'm off to see about getting some fancy flours....
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 07 September, 2013, 11:40:11 am
That did not go particularly well. I decided to keep to my usual bake in a tin method. However, once I'd left the production leaven for a bit I then stuck it in the tin and left it in a carrier bag for a few hours.
I then had a few gin and tonics. Come the end of the night it didn't appear to have risen at all, certainly nowhere near the top of the tin, but I thought 'sod it' and baked it anyway.
It's a bit like a brick, and having sawed it open this morning it's not been baked long enough either. :(

I must admit, that despite all his protestations of simplicity I'm finding Andrew Whitely's method rather enlongated and confusing. My previous method involved feeding a small starter for a few days and then using all of that to create the final dough. Whitely's method of making a starter and then fermenting a leaven and then making a dough I don't really get....
Confused of Furrybootoon.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 09 September, 2013, 07:50:06 am
I bring you The Wedgie Roll tm (c) Ham 2013 all rights reserved

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dT1iLVnX3bk/Ui1tqnLTXaI/AAAAAAAAq3E/DiKIvwYZtIY/s800/DSCN0232.JPG)

Cooking for a  dinner party on Saturday night, I thought I would experiment, and now can't understand why this isn't more common (I've never seen this suggested before, have you?). Baking up 500g of flour into rolls, after the first prove I formed into a round and sliced into 1/4 then each into into 3 wedges, with a knife sharp enough to cut. The result is a roll with an extra crusty bit, and they stack up well in a bread basket.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 20 October, 2013, 09:27:57 pm
A great success with a sourdough loaf. I'd made the starter and left it in the fridge and to be honest forgot about it. This would be in July. Anyway I decided to risk using it two days ago as it had the appearance which my book suggested (a dark film across the top) and the book said it would be good and it made a really tasty loaf. Holes and everything  :thumbsup: I've now started another lot.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 October, 2013, 02:37:44 pm
Recently I've been leaving the oil out of my bread. The first time was an accident, I mentioned it and Mrs Cudzo said it seemed a bit dry, but I tried it again and it seemed ok to me - didn't mention it and she hasn't commented. So now I've stopped putting the oil in and it doesn't seem at all dry. In fact it doesn't really seem any different, except perhaps it rises a tiny bit more. So what role does the oil actually play?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 21 October, 2013, 02:43:20 pm
I think it helps with the consistency and slightly with the flavour. I think it is also easier to get a crust without oil, but it doesn't keep. Why leave it out?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 October, 2013, 06:22:10 pm
The first time was an accident, I was in a hurry and just forgot.  :facepalm: But then I thought I'd try it deliberately to see how it turned out - and as it turns out well, I don't see any point adding it. It's probably the largest single use of oil in our kitchen recently so it should cut the grocery bills a tad too, but tbh that only just occurred to me!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 22 October, 2013, 06:44:49 pm
How much do you put in? How do you get by without using oil in the kitchen?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 22 October, 2013, 07:01:13 pm
One tablespoon in a medium sized loaf. I didn't say we don't use oil in the kitchen, just that three or four loaves a week seems to be the largest single usage - no, I haven't measured this!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 01 November, 2013, 06:03:16 pm
My latest bread has been a couple of loaves with raisins and black treacle. The book I got it from calls it "Maritimer's Bread". The oats, raisins, treacle, bit of butter and water are left to soak overnight then added to the flour, yeast, salt and kneading and proved in the normal way. It is a very sticky dough to work with but the results are excellent.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 13 November, 2013, 01:52:43 am
Am deciding to restart my sour dough again.  This time no yoghurt or rhubarb just 50g of wholemeal bread flour and some tap water at room temperature and see what happens.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 13 November, 2013, 05:50:44 pm
That's what I do to start the sourdough. 50g of flour and same of water each day for five days, then use it, if it is frothing up, (it might need an extra day). I tried with rhubarb and apple and it didn't really work.
If I'm not ready to use straightaway, I put in the fridge and leave it till I am ready. After a while it looks like this
(http://i41.tinypic.com/i724w6.jpg)

I left some on the fridge for months like this (actually I had forgotten about it) and it made a great loaf. Apparently it'll keep like this for years.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 13 November, 2013, 08:19:57 pm
Will see how it goes but adding every 24 hours is going to be what I'm going to do.  All I'm doing is that making sure the tap water is at room temperature and living in a glass for a few hours.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: ran doner on 13 November, 2013, 08:34:58 pm
I'll be trying my first go at sourdough bread tomorrow. The starter is a couple of weeks old and based on Paul Hollywood orangic apple method.

My previous attempts have been with pineapple juice which all ended in disaster but this one could be the one !
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 13 November, 2013, 09:32:50 pm
Fingers crossed for you!! I like the taste of sourdough, whereas my wife does not, so more for me! Result!!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 23 December, 2013, 05:17:41 pm
Anyone made hazelnut bread?

Mrs P, the thing is with adding nuts to dough is that it can be a little painful when kneading if done by hand so take care when doing so. I finely crush half the amount of nuts I am using (to give the dough the flavour) and keep the other half in big chunks (for the texture). For hazelnuts I'd toast the nuts first, gives a lovely flavour.
An advantage to using the soda bread recipe above is that, as no kneading is required, the problem doesn't exist in that type of loaf. I'd use a bit of honey aswell.
I've made both sorts of loaf and can recommend both.

Most important thing is ....... let us know how you get on       :thumbsup: 

So, yesterday I made a wholemeal loaf and I chucked in some toasted hazelnuts after I'd knocked it back. Tastes OK :P
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Chris N on 04 January, 2014, 08:57:07 pm
Nothing fancy, just basic white bread:

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7410/11759415704_0825c7cd8f_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26008756@N08/11759415704/)

No photos of the pizzas I made at the same time though, it got eaten too quickly. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: T42 on 04 January, 2014, 09:16:44 pm
Muesli bread, up close:

(http://www.pbase.com/johnewing/image/130690327.jpg) (http://www.pbase.com/johnewing/image/130690327)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 07 January, 2014, 03:36:47 pm
That's gross! Could be used in one of those quizzes which has everyday things taken at strange angles or up close! Can anyone else see the little chicken on the left? It's wearing a hat.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: delthebike on 11 January, 2014, 02:56:09 pm
Tomato bread just out of the oven.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-5e12MprVzD8/UtFbNeHWA3I/AAAAAAAAIF4/VFKEW5y0etQ/s640/p1110026.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 11 January, 2014, 08:59:18 pm
Looks great. Sun dried tomatoes?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: delthebike on 12 January, 2014, 01:51:52 pm
Looks great. Sun dried tomatoes?
Half a tube of puréed toms! 
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 18 January, 2014, 09:53:41 am
Bet it tasted great! My latest was a fig and date wholemeal loaf, which oddly enough tasted great with marmalade. Sorry no pics.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: longers on 01 February, 2014, 08:36:20 am
This is my best ever loaf. (not that many to choose from, yet)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/2mgtp1.jpg)

Thankyou to Daniel Stevens who wrote the River Cottage bread making book which has made the whole process easily understandable.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 27 March, 2014, 04:44:19 pm
I made a milk loaf recently and instead of milk used whey (I had some from making curd cheese, which is another story). It was delicious, made the taste quite acidic, a bit like a sourdough.
Also made some scones using whey in place of milk and they were equally delicious.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 09 May, 2014, 08:59:53 pm
Bought some "oak smoked stoneground" flour from Booths. It was about £2-50 for a kg bag, but I don't mind paying for decent flour (after all I paid that for a cup of crap coffee today). It makes a delicious loaf, I just made a basic one to test the taste and would think that the addition of other things such as nuts or dates would be fantastic. Well worth trying it, if there's a Booths near you.
Actually, have just checked and it's a 1.5 kg bag. Result.

Have looked again at the bag, it's from the Bacheldre watermill in Powys. There is a web-site which lists several stockists in many parts of the country. Can even be bought via Amazon.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 06 July, 2014, 09:24:49 pm
Been experimenting with using cornmeal in place of some flour in my loaves. So far, very impressed, you can tell there's something different in the loaf. I soak the cornmeal overnight with a bit of treacle and water and then make the loaf as normal.

I've also had some more goes with spelt flour, having not been impressed previously. Using it together with rye flour is tricky, but I've had good results with starting a bit of the mix off and letting it ferment overnight and then adding more flour and yeast and making as per normal,  I think this technique is called a sponge method. Again, it makes a tasty loaf with a slightly nutty taste (although I invariably use a load of seeds aswell).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 07 July, 2014, 03:22:03 am
Keep thinking I should try and use chappati flour, or at least a mix of it to make bread.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 07 July, 2014, 10:15:47 am
What is chapatti flour? I thought to make chapattis you used wholemeal, or is it some other type of flour used in Asian cooking? I regularly shop in Asian stores and I know they seem to have many different types of flour. I've used gram flour which makes a delicious snack when hot, but the taste isn't half as good when cold.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 07 July, 2014, 10:26:32 am
Er £4 for 10kg in tesco...maybe £3 http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=271657355

Supposed to be alot of things but might buy a bag....
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pickled Onion on 10 July, 2014, 01:07:26 pm
What is chapatti flour? I thought to make chapattis you used wholemeal, or is it some other type of flour used in Asian cooking? I regularly shop in Asian stores and I know they seem to have many different types of flour. I've used gram flour which makes a delicious snack when hot, but the taste isn't half as good when cold.

Chapati flour is made from durum wheat which is high protein, which is desirable for flat breads. High protein implies high gluten, but the gluten is not as available as other wheat flours, so it is reasonable for baking leavened bread but will not rise as well as standard strong bread flour.

Gram flour is ground chick peas so is not meant for baking at all. It's used for the stick things (sev) in bombay mix which are easy to make if you have a potato ricer. With a bit of experimentation it can also make a passable savoury custard for vegan quiche.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 10 July, 2014, 08:05:51 pm
 Thanks pickled onion, I haven't come across chapatti flour.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pickled Onion on 12 July, 2014, 10:18:31 am
I used to use it a lot as it makes perfect naan bread - it never occurred to me to use for normal bread, but given the price as above I think I'll give it a go!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: levitator on 12 July, 2014, 10:59:34 pm
Lots of mentions up this thread of sourdough, something I've been trying over the past few months.  Very mixed results: the first attempt was overbaked and burnt.  Second batch came out fine.  Then I - errr - lost my starter culture. no need to go into details but accidents WILL happen  :(

OK, made another starter, same flour (organic rye).  Fizzed up much more vigourously than the first batch, but all the loaves made from it have been poorly risen with a big 'cavity' inside.  Threw that starter away, started yet another one.  Same result.  Thrown away starter once again.

I think I need to look around a bit for better recipes.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: levitator on 12 July, 2014, 11:01:47 pm
Incidentally, I'm not using a bread machine (haven't got one).  We have four breadmakers.  My left hand, my right hand, my wife's left hand, my wife's right hand.  Isn't that enough?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 12 July, 2014, 11:33:31 pm
I had the cavity issue as well. I faffed about with different recipes before going back to the original but trying different techniques.
I eventually had success with the folding envelope technique described here http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/apr/14/make-your-own-sourdough
Then I put it in a linen lined banneton to rise, but not for too long or you get the big pocket at the top. I also found that I had to cover the dough with a damp cloth because if I put the banneton in a plastic bag the dough sticks to the linen when I turn it out of the banneton.

There is a lot of black magic spoken about sourdough, I got offered countless 'foolproof' recipes but I reckon it's a bit like cycling shorts - trial and error til you find what works for you.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 13 July, 2014, 04:41:00 pm
Did you use yoghurt or fruit in the starter or just flour and water?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: levitator on 13 July, 2014, 06:26:19 pm
Did you use yoghurt or fruit in the starter or just flour and water?
No, just flour and water.  OK time to look up this yoghurt, fruit idea, never heard of that one.  What I think happened with my second and third batchs, the stuff fizzed up too early and lost its potency before I got around to making the bread, I need to slow it down somehow (send it up the Tourmalet!).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 13 July, 2014, 07:45:25 pm
Did you use yoghurt or fruit in the starter or just flour and water?
No, just flour and water.  OK time to look up this yoghurt, fruit idea, never heard of that one.  What I think happened with my second and third batchs, the stuff fizzed up too early and lost its potency before I got around to making the bread, I need to slow it down somehow (send it up the Tourmalet!).
Make the dough before the starter collapses or put it in the fridge to retard it a bit.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 14 July, 2014, 02:51:09 pm
I have a jar in the fridge. Whenever I want to make a sourdough I take it out 24 hours before I want to start to make the loaf, refresh it (add flour and water and stir) leave it and use half the following day in the loaf. The remainder I put back in the fridge. Sourdough definitely has a different taste, not to everyone's liking (my wife dislikes it) but I love it. It isn't a quick loaf to make though as I find the longer the rising and proving the better the taste.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 17 September, 2014, 08:12:44 am
Ah ha, made another starter from a wholemeal flour, water and bits of rhubarb.

Am making three different loaves today, a rye, a spelt and a normal bread flour dough.  Having added 75g of water and 50 grams of white bread flour roughly I added some 50g of starter to each new pot, then left for 8 or so hours.  Then feeding the starter with 50 grams of flour and 75 grams of water.  This is done as the starter still contains bits of rhubarb and is very active.  The two new yeast will be added complete in to the dough and when mixed I will put both the dough's in to the fridge till the dough's have doubled in size. 

Then knocking the dough back for a second prove at room temperature in the tin that the bread will be baked in.  Lets see what happens.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 17 September, 2014, 11:51:00 pm
Blog post -----gattopardo calling orson come in orson.....gattoaprdo calling orson come in or....

Well the best laid plans of mice and sourdough.  After running around this morning to make sure that I have spelt and rye flour.  Finally I started making the breads, firstly I added the starter to a little water to make up the water content for the rye bread and then added the the rye flour and the same amount of bread flour. then a little salt.  This is a recipe I had misread and didn't see bread flour being added until after along list of differing seeds that I wasn't adding.  Small screen and scim reading... Opps so the first bit was just starter a bit of water and judt rye and salt.  The mix was very wet hence checking and noticing the error.  So once noticed I added the bread flour and then did the process described.  Folding the mix for a few minutes leaving the mix to stand for 15 mins then a couple of minutes folding doing that three times.  Then stuck the whole lot, bowl covered in tin foil, in fridge for the first prove of at least 12+ hours. 

The second experiment was a spelt was once again the starter that was up and active then I added a bit of water to make it up to the required level then, added the spelt flour and salt straight and then folded the mix again doing the few minutes then left for 15 minutes then did some folding again then a third go.  I then left the dough that was quite sticky then left that for a bit on top of the fridge, where the starter lives, but when  came back to it the bread was dry.  Handled the dough with wet hands and then stuck the dough in a jane asher poundland non stick loaf pan.  How much was it do I hear you shout  ;D Cutting the top and stuck the lot in the fridge with a damp tea towel on top of the pan making sure that it doesn't touch the top of the mix.

Then I saw I had some left over fed starter and thought I'add some more water, some atta flour and salt, to see what would happen.  Have used the couple of minutes folding technique then leaving it to sit for 15 minutes three times.  Then stuck the whole lot in to the fridge with a covered over damp tea towel.

Looking back I should have done just one, but got a little fixated and logic went out the window.  Sort think  I had to do it to prove something to myself or the world.  No idea what it was and why, cos that's a hell of alot of bread.  I made sure I kept the flour water salt ratios correct for each bread from the recipes I found. 

The differences from my usual mix was adding the starter to the water and kneading and not folding.  I think keeping the dough in the fridge for at 24 - 36 hours should increase the taste so they say.  So am going to go for either time or till the dough has doubled.  But unsure what will happen as the dough seems to have gained a dry skin.

Will report once more....Nanu nanu or have I created three mixes of shazbat.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 18 September, 2014, 06:51:30 pm
Interesting write up Gatto, would like to hear how you get on in particular the taste. I find spelt does need a much longer prove to bring out the taste, when I first tried spelt I was a bit underwhelmed, but the longer prove makes it much better.
On a different note I see Aldi have two types of flour as one of their specials and both look like they are worth a go. I'll certainly be giving them a whirl.
Edit.   The flours are specials this Sunday (21/9)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pancho on 19 September, 2014, 08:32:40 pm
My bread maker died a while ago. It's had a tough working life of over a decade of feeding the family.

Rather than buy a new one, I've been doing it the primitive way - by hand. Just googled for an "easy bread recipe" and followed it. No pictures, I'm afraid as the loaves tend to get wolfed PDQ. But it's good stuff - very good. And not too much hassle provided I get cracking as soon as I get home from work (all that rising and proving takes forever and I like to be in bed early).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 20 September, 2014, 09:51:40 pm
I've never had a bread maker, but I love making it by hand, the kneading I find therapeutic and I can think of loads of other things whilst doing it. It does take a little forward planning but things like proving can be delayed by putting in the fridge overnight. I get a kick every time I look at the risen dough.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 21 September, 2014, 06:02:26 pm
Finally got back to the bread, have been a bit busy ;)

The first bread I pulled out of the fridge, there was a bit of cold burn from a bit that wasn't covered with tinfoil.  Left the bread out for a few hours to warm up and to prove some more.  Just now knocked the bread back with wet hands and split the dough in to two balls one in to a silicone tray while the other I placed in to a pyrex bowl lid.

Does any one have any hints and tips to use an unglazed ceramic/clay loaf pan.  Reading on the net I am a bit lost.  Do I coat the inside with oil and heat the pan to season the insdie of the pan.  Thanks for the advice.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 21 September, 2014, 11:40:24 pm
Oven up to temperature and the bread has gone in...Should have baked one from cold oven to temp and then the other when the oven was at temp.

Photos to be added once done
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Kim on 22 September, 2014, 07:22:56 pm
In SCIENCE news, it turns out that the combustible gas sensor[1] that I've installed in our kitchen[2] doubles as a freshly-baked bread detector.  I assume it's responding to the ethanol vapour from the yeast (it exhibits a similar response if you waft a bottle of meths or a freshly baked roll near the sensor).


[1] Catalyst-coated wire in a Wheatstone bridge type thing, so not particularly discriminate where hydrocarbons are concerned.
[2] Useful safety accessory for the hard-of-smelling person[3] who rightly considers electric hobs to be a work of Stan.
[3] Barakta, not I.  My nose is over-sensitive.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 22 September, 2014, 10:52:46 pm
The loaf was a rye and bread flour mixed.  The first knock back revealed an airy dough, the I folded a few times.  The seperated into two different rolls to create two different loaves.  Never know when the bread is ready after the second prove and have to be careful not to knock the dough so there is a loss of the rise.

The bread came out cooked but quite dense, nice flavour and texture but dense.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 23 September, 2014, 06:55:09 pm
Rye flour does tend to make a very dense loaf, hence mixing with other flour. I do like heavy bread but I know many don't.
Re the knocking back stage, I put the dough in whatever I'm going to bake it in and so it is easy to avoid pushing it back by mistake. If not using a loaf tin I just leave it on a baking tray.

I looked at the Aldi flour I mentioned above and third on the list of ingredients is calcium carbonate. Chalk!! What's that all about? Reinforces my belief that it's worth buying decent flour and spending a little extra.

Gatto - I've only used a flower pot for baking, I oiled it and put in the oven to season, but the second loaf I baked cracked it and I've not tried another since. The loaves were ok though and it was only a cheap pot so a better quality one might be better.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 23 September, 2014, 07:17:48 pm
This is my ceramic loaf tray http://www.lakeland.co.uk/16075/Ceramic-2lb-Loaf-Pan

Suspect that I made the mistake of letting the bread spread in a larger pan instead of asmaller pan that rises upwards.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: sojournermike on 26 September, 2014, 12:07:33 am
Excellent, a bread thread.

I've just received the second of two flour parcels and am now happy to have a cupboard full of c40kg of various flours from Shipton and Stoates mills and another 15kg sack of white on the floor nearby:) The new sourdough starter should be in early working order by Saturday and a weekend of happy smells is beckoning.

Last weekend included bakes of white, extra course wholemeal and my every day mixed grain whitish bread. The downside is I seem to bake more than we eat, and then I finish it up...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pancho on 28 September, 2014, 06:32:26 pm
Today I made yet another delicious loaf. However, I'm receiving complaints from the household (Mrs P) about the shape. I do try to shape the dough into sort of rugby ball format - but I always end up with, admittedly well risen and tasty, a cowpat shaped object.

So how do I make something that looks not totally unlike a loaf? Preferably without buying special tins.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: sojournermike on 28 September, 2014, 08:06:36 pm
Today I made yet another delicious loaf. However, I'm receiving complaints from the household (Mrs P) about the shape. I do try to shape the dough into sort of rugby ball format - but I always end up with, admittedly well risen and tasty, a cowpat shaped object.

So how do I make something that looks not totally unlike a loaf? Preferably without buying special tins.


You need tins for tin loaves and, ideally a banneton, for slack dough shaped loves.

You might try baking in a plant pot or letting the loaves prove - well floured with rye -  in a suitable dish.

New sourdough starter first bake is just out of the oven.

Mike
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 29 September, 2014, 02:56:38 am
Have attacked the bread that I had left in the fridge for over a week!  The bread had a bit of a hard skin.  But I mixed up once again, I left the resulting mix above the fridge to warm and grow for a few hours.  Then I will knock back and bake it in the evening.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: rafletcher on 30 September, 2014, 09:21:57 am
Not strictly bread, but dough related. Last weekend I used a new (to me) method (2-day) for making pizza bases. The pizzas were then dry fried then grilled.  Base was that lovely chewy texture that it should be. Result.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pancho on 30 September, 2014, 09:54:08 am
Tonight I shall try plaits.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pancho on 30 September, 2014, 10:30:43 pm
Worked well. Just made normal bread dough but plaited it before the second prove. Didn't bother with egg glazing or scattering poppy seeds. Much closer to a loaf shape than a cow pat shape.

Just need to get better at doing the plaits in bread. It's a bit agricultural - or should that be artisnal. I've only done horses before.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 01 October, 2014, 06:32:30 pm
Bread horses?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 October, 2014, 10:00:30 am
I made brioche last night. Had to tweak the recipe a bit and it didn't rise much but apart from that it tastes quite genuine (ie boring).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 02 October, 2014, 11:52:03 am
Ahh brioche. 5 eggs and 250g of butter in each loaf!! I remember making it for the first time, I was sure I had misread the recipe and then I was convinced the recipe was wrong, I couldn't believe there would be so much fat (not to mention the sugar) in it.
Not sure why yours didn't rise much, mine always does a lot. Do you chill overnight before forming into balls or a plait and then leave for a second rise? I find brioche dough is very good for making interesting shaped loaves using this method, I presume the butter responds well to the bit of chilling.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 October, 2014, 11:59:19 am
No, I should have left it to rise more.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 02 October, 2014, 04:11:29 pm
In Lisbon last week I discovered the joy that is Pao de Deus, a Portuguese speciality bread. Funny, cos I'm not normally a huge fan of coconut, but I think I like them because they're not too sweet.

I've found a recipe online and I think I'm going to have a go at making it myself...
http://portuguesebreads.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/pao-de-deus_1.html
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 18 November, 2014, 04:44:49 pm
Hmm, not much baking going on, or is it peeps are too busy kneading to post?

I've been using cornmeal (polenta to some) mixed with flour for my loaves. It makes for a tasty loaf and you can alter texture by using coarse or fine cornmeal. I prefer coarse  :o, my wife prefers fine. It's dead cheap as well. Needs a long prove which suits me as I tend to leave overnight anyway.

Made some Chelsea buns recently which were ok, but the dough was a bit heavy. I like baking where you roll up the dough with a filling in the middle and then cut or plait or whatever and then bake. 
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 22 November, 2014, 09:26:31 am
Not strictly bread, but dough related. Last weekend I used a new (to me) method (2-day) for making pizza bases. The pizzas were then dry fried then grilled.  Base was that lovely chewy texture that it should be. Result.

How did I miss this, which of the methods did you use?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 11 December, 2014, 12:01:34 pm
Time for a quiz. Hands up if you can guess who de-tinned the loaves and put them back in the oven for a couple of minutes then went on a conference call for 45 minutes? Without removing said loaves first.

Baked Brick, anyone?

 :facepalm:

I SHALL have at least two slices out of this for my lunch. I will report back

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 12 December, 2014, 09:16:25 am
Time for a quiz. Hands up if you can guess who de-tinned the loaves and put them back in the oven for a couple of minutes then went on a conference call for 45 minutes? Without removing said loaves first.

Baked Brick, anyone?

 :facepalm:

I SHALL have at least two slices out of this for my lunch. I will report back

Crusty. Very crusty.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: sojournermike on 02 March, 2015, 01:07:01 pm
back on the sourdough trail at the moment. The starter is good and have made some brad that I've been enjoying. Two stage process, using a wet leavan followed by the main dough at about 75% hydration. Basic bread is 80% white and 20% wholemeal. Variation include white with a bit of yeast as well as natural leavan for kids and spelt based nearly whole meal sourdough.

doesn't fit with low carb lifestyle though.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: sojournermike on 09 March, 2015, 12:35:31 am
Earlier
(https://photosojourner.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/l1000030.jpg)


Later
(https://photosojourner.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/l1000037-2.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 09 March, 2015, 07:15:11 am
Later still

(http://www.fairyist.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/crumbs.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Eccentrica Gallumbits on 14 March, 2015, 07:38:20 pm
I've just started buying the occasional loaf from The Wee Boulangerie in Edinburgh. My favourite so far is the 8 grain rye sourdough, but they do a great fougasse too.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 16 March, 2015, 05:55:48 pm
Bread's the one thing (even above CAIK) that's stopping me from going low-carb; I tend to do a low-knead sourdough loosely based on Dan Lepard's approach (wet dough, long rise with minimal handling). Having finally torn down the mouldering shed in the back garden, I am giving SERIOUS THORT to asking the landlord whether I can build a bread oven in the back garden this summer; if I get the OK I'll have to start scrounging freecycle for bricks and start looking for local clay pits...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 17 March, 2015, 08:29:32 am
A friend of mine has really got into the bread thing over the last couple of years. She has got to the stage of buying a small industrial mixer and bread oven. It's not a business but more like a hobby that she offsets the costs of by selling a small amount of bread. She runs a bread club and every Friday she delivers a random loaf to the members in and around our village. Its lovely and our Friday treat, the sourdough in particular is brilliant.
She made it onto The One Show a few months ago when Jay Raynor ran a little competition about bread making.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: sojournermike on 17 March, 2015, 05:11:19 pm
I bake at least once each week - for me also the main low carb obstacle! Current production is a whitish (c.25% wholemeal or spelt) mixed leaven bread and a full sourdough 50/50 white/wholemeal spelt. BOth are fairly high hydration doughs, with only a limited amount of handling

Mike
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 03 April, 2015, 01:49:24 am
Have just started this year's batch of hot cross buns - following this recipe, which is now my standard one: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/mar/13/spiced-stout-buns-dan-lepard
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 12 April, 2015, 03:02:46 pm
I made a loaf using some mashed potato. Started off a bloomer as normal and then folded in about half as much again mashed potato. Added a little tarragon and I must say it's delicious. Even my son says so and he never eats anything I bake.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 17 July, 2015, 11:38:27 am
And another success - crumpets. Massive great ones, full of holes to soak up loads of melted butter. Have had eggs Benedict for breakfast the last two days, homemade hollandaise sauce, delicious. Will get round to posting pictures.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tail End Charlie on 16 August, 2015, 07:20:41 pm
I've been experimenting with adding various vegetables to my dough. I've tried beetroot, carrot, parsnip and potato in separate loaves. The carrot and beetroot were raw and the other two I cooked. You have to watch the sloppiness of the dough, but they have all been very tasty. I think the parsnip one would do very well with added cheese, not sure about the others.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 28 August, 2015, 03:08:26 pm
I has a breadmaker !!! My wife came back from her mothers yesterday with an unwanted second hand one that someone had given to the Mil who thought I might like it. She's not wrong.
Made a simple white loaf last night. Yeast and flower six months out of date but it still rose really well and the texture was good. Slightly too salty, will add less next time. I can see that this is going to be fun.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 20 September, 2015, 09:41:09 pm
Last night I tried a Spelt & Rye loaf made with buttermilk as liquid, turned out v tasty, not sure why it cracked this way, possibly because I should have waited longer before baking.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xGl5G6_1qno/Vf8ZCXLM5FI/AAAAAAAAy9o/M2e8ZAVkUOw/s640-Ic42/upload_-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: sojournermike on 21 September, 2015, 02:28:59 pm
Last night I tried a Spelt & Rye loaf made with buttermilk as liquid, turned out v tasty, not sure why it cracked this way, possibly because I should have waited longer before baking.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xGl5G6_1qno/Vf8ZCXLM5FI/AAAAAAAAy9o/M2e8ZAVkUOw/s640-Ic42/upload_-1.jpg)

I did spelt and rye (60:40) this weekend too. I think the cracking is, in part, because the gluten in both is 'lower quality' than that in modern wheat. It changes the texture, but the taste is great.

Mike
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 24 September, 2015, 12:32:40 pm
First bread machine failure today. Organic local strong white flour and it didn't rise as much as it should and was soggy in the middle :(
Made the same loaf yesterday and it was fine. The only difference was switching to Hovis fast action yeast instead of Sainsbury's and actual weighing out 5g of yeast rather than chucking in the whole 7g sachet. Trying again now with a whole sachet of Hovis yeast. We will see if that's better in a couple of hours.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 25 September, 2015, 09:29:19 am
I reckon the quantity of yeast is critical and the temperature of the room seems to affect things as well. Warmer room - slightly (and really only slightly) less yeast.

I use a carefully levelled teaspoon measure as my datum.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 25 September, 2015, 09:47:03 am
Second loaf was a bit better than the first but not as good as usual. I will try using the Sainsbury's yeast again to see if that's better. Run out of flour now though so will have to wait until I can get some more on Saturday.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 01 October, 2015, 08:21:19 am
Switches to Doves Farm quick yeast on a recommendation from a friend who bakes a lot of bread and all is well with the world again.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 10 October, 2015, 06:42:16 pm
Much better this time,

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VIGgnJOfKEI/VhlAEFzXEkI/AAAAAAAAy_M/Umi7HGl1Ct8/s640-Ic42/upload_-1.jpg)

A little more fluid and more gentle proving.

(The one on the back is not the same, that was lunch - 50% Rye/Spelt, 50% White, added walnuts)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 13 November, 2015, 07:22:56 pm
Having received my handed-down Kenwood Chef back from the workshop with a new juiced up motor and go-faster stripes, I am going to utilise it to try making wet dough breads. First experiment will be ciabatta.

Here is the biga making itself ready....
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/769/22598459069_5fb686af78_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/AqX1yD)One biga, preparing for action tomorrow.... (https://flic.kr/p/AqX1yD) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: DDCyclist on 13 November, 2015, 07:51:31 pm
I think I noticed at least one mention of a 'bread maker being the best gadget they ever bought for the kitchen' while I was scanning through the thread.

Couldn't agree more. We got one about a year ago and have not bought industrial, supermarket stuff since. Mrs Cyclist even eats the crusts - which she wouldn't touch before. We prefer wholemeal (stone-ground locally) for our toast every morning. I usually make a loaf every other day. We usually have a bag of ready-mix something-or-other in the cupboards in case we fancy something a little different for the weekends. I made stollen last Christmas (and burnt it, but it was still delicious) and will be making it again this year.

An interesting point is that we used to throw a lot of mouldy supermarket stuff away. It's very rare we throw any home-made away. Often, if we know we're going to have spare or we're going away for a few days. we just turn it into breadcrumbs for fishcakes etc.

The only down-side is I have to cut it for the toaster, and Mrs Cyclist's sandwiches, every morning. If I left it to her it'd be like a scene from Zorro. Then again, if she left the ironing to me she'd be going to work looking like an extra from The Towering Inferno.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 13 November, 2015, 09:23:05 pm
We are lost without our bread maker. It went back to John Lewis on Monday under warranty and I was expecting a straight swap, instead they are repairing it. We're having to buy shop bread. Dearie me. Far from ideal.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 14 November, 2015, 01:01:12 pm
I'm quite pleased with these, hope they are as good inside....
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/707/22589656408_51e94c0bff_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/AqaTQC)Ciabatta! (https://flic.kr/p/AqaTQC) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: lou boutin on 14 November, 2015, 02:46:53 pm
They look very yum MrsP
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 15 November, 2015, 03:57:49 pm
They turned out nicely, though they tasted a bit 'white' for me, despite having stuck a bit of unrefreshed rye/wholemeal starter in there.
Next time I've got a bit more time I might try Andrew Whiteley's sourdough/country bread version.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5758/23019595381_7b436ae393_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/B5arHx)Seems ciabatta-esque (https://flic.kr/p/B5arHx) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Dibdib on 29 January, 2016, 10:15:15 pm
First attempt at a brown loaf this evening, after a few partially-successful attempts at soda bread. I should have taken some pictures before it went in the oven, but oh well. Fingers crossed it's edible!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Dibdib on 30 January, 2016, 11:11:02 am
So here's the result. It's not much but I'm pretty chuffed!

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23853117/YACF/20160130%20Bread.jpeg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 30 January, 2016, 05:14:20 pm
So here's the result. It's not much but I'm pretty chuffed!

(https://photos-4.dropbox.com/t/2/AABv8hIjHeolOUKCc7pVX6GS6DmTYwq4SrqJGG_k1fJLog/12/23853117/jpeg/32x32/3/1454169600/0/2/20160130%20Bread.jpeg/EJaM-REYhjAgAigC/bzlV-r3rjTXNIr2uUIcSzjxngPEL9SQf9rFlv4plYLg?size_mode=3&size=1024x768)

Error 410..... you've eaten it  ;D
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Dibdib on 30 January, 2016, 05:20:40 pm
Error 410..... you've eaten it  ;D

Thanks, fixed. Worked on my iPad, strangely. Stupid Dropbox software giving me different style URLs.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 05 February, 2016, 02:06:41 pm
I've tried making the last couple of loaves without sugar and salt, seeing if the yeast has enough to feed on just in the flour (and a glob of oil, it must use that to an extent). It's risen as well as ever but tastes somehow bland. Seems the sugar – it seems to be that more than the salt – contributes more flavour than I'd ever imagined.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 05 February, 2016, 02:17:47 pm
It's not the sugar that gives it flavour - it's the salt!

I never use sugar in normal bread, it makes no difference at all. No salt however will turn into a tasteless loaf.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 05 February, 2016, 04:06:19 pm
That would make sense, and is what I would have thought, but experimentation shows that using salt without sugar still results in a bland loaf.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 06 February, 2016, 06:53:47 am
Curious.I've never found that, at least not for standard bread, maybe it's a proportion thing? I normally bake 1.5Kg of wholemeal flour at a time (not always) and certainly 1 tsp sugar makes no difference, being wholemeal it is anything but bland.

Baking smaller quantity loaves as I often do, mixing up all sorts of flours and additions (nuts etc) again never seems to lack flavour and compare very well to commercial product from speciality bakers, although I rarely bake a plain white loaf. The nearest I get is white rolls occasionally, which mostly end up as poppy seed knots.

What I do use on occasion for these loaves (loves?) is added malt or molasses or both, which I recommend to the house and are available in jars.

Coming back to your original point, yeast doesn't need added sugar (or oil) to work, ultimately the flavour of the loaf needs to be to your taste, there's not going to be One True Way.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 07 February, 2016, 11:24:54 am
Last night I set the breadmaker off to make a wholemeal loaf. I didn't add sugar. I did put a little extra yeast in. It has risen beautifully - more than I normally expect a loaf made to that recipe to do! I shall have some in a moment with my home-made marmalade.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 07 February, 2016, 07:48:54 pm
Sugar just speeds up the initial yeast ferment - unless you're trying to activate dried (not instant) yeast it's not needed (and even with dried you can just whisk in some flour). Salt improves flavour and IIRC also improves gluten formation, but retards yeast action. Fats slow staling and improve moisture retention, but again retard yeast action (at least when used in large quantities for enriched doughs).

For regular bread I tend to use about 1-1.5% of salt as a baker's percentage (i.e. of the weight of flour), and 1% yeast. A glug of oil or knob of butter for fat, and hydration at about 55-60%.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 07 February, 2016, 09:23:53 pm
Sugar just speeds up the initial yeast ferment - unless you're trying to activate dried (not instant) yeast it's not needed (and even with dried you can just whisk in some flour).

....or, not. Just not needed, honest.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 07 February, 2016, 09:31:48 pm
Sugar just speeds up the initial yeast ferment - unless you're trying to activate dried (not instant) yeast it's not needed (and even with dried you can just whisk in some flour).

....or, not. Just not needed, honest.

Indeed, I just bung it all together and knead. No salt, no sugar. The only thing I add besides oil is vitamin c for the wholemeal flour.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 20 February, 2016, 06:23:09 pm
The experiments with buttermilk continue

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RhYmSnhf-qc/Xp7BnbJZSOI/AAAAAAADOa0/QUY-PH-eAlkFq7ka9P8Zac459ZC7I9NYQCPcBGAsYHg/s1600/IMG_20160220_144546.jpg)

Left hand one is 40-rye, 40-spelt, 10-white and hasn't cracked. Right hand is pure rye and has. Both kneaded more, which appears to help. Rye might need more liquid.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pickled Onion on 05 March, 2016, 07:30:18 am
Does anyone have a decent recipe for vegan hot cross buns?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 05 March, 2016, 10:56:25 am
Am thinking I might get out the Chef tomorrow and try this challah recipe, or a brioche.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/mar/05/no-knead-bread-focaccia-challah-risen-bread-recipes-yotam-ottolenghi
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pancho on 05 March, 2016, 11:24:41 am
I've just switched to making wholemeal bread our mainstay (rather than white). All the recipes I've seen recommend adding vitamin C to help avoid housebrick style loaves. Am I actually supposed to crush up an orange tablet? Or is there some special bread-vitamin C? I've been making do with a squeeze of lemon juice. It appears to work. OK, the bread isn't the fluffy stuff I've been making previously but, then, wholemeal is always a bit heavier I think.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pickled Onion on 05 March, 2016, 11:34:19 am
You can buy ascorbic acid powder in Boots, you have to ask for it. I tried it but never really noticed the difference. Home made wholemeal is supposed to be chewy, or you can do half-and-half for a lighter loaf.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 05 March, 2016, 12:04:25 pm
Holland and Barrett sell jars of vit c powder too.
I've never tried making it without, I always put it in because SCIENCE.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 05 March, 2016, 01:35:59 pm
Wholemeal is always going to be heavier than white.
Adding vitamin C does make a difference. Many commercial bakeries do so.
I found that the only way to make my 100% wholemeal edible is to use the sponge method.
Add half the flour to all the water, the yeast and the sugar (if you use sugar). Allow to bubble away for at least 45 minutes but can be nearly as long as you want.
Then add the rest of the flour, knead and treat as usual.

I got the recipe from the Tassajara Bread Book many years ago and it has been my standard method for making bread of any sort since then.

(Tassajara was a Californian Zen Buddhist Monastery back in the 60s & 70s (may still exist I suppose) and the book reads like it came from a Californian Zen Buddhist Monastery in the 70s, but the recipes do work.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 05 March, 2016, 02:59:13 pm
Childcare duties mean most of my manual bread-making is confined to the weekend, so I've been experimenting with ways to get more flavour from the breadmaker. I've been pleasantly surprised that the no-knead bread dough works pretty well. Normally the recipe calls for an overnight sponge and then a bake in a preheated cast-iron casserole at very high oven temperatures, but my breadmaker produces a decent rise, if not the great crust of the original method. I mix up the sponge in the machine's pan at lunchtime then turn it off. Before I go to bed I set it to run its normal programme on the delay timer, and when I wake up I've got fresh bread for breakfast and packed lunches.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Pickled Onion on 08 March, 2016, 07:01:42 am
Does anyone have a decent recipe for vegan hot cross buns?

Found one.

(http://handsonit.co.uk/images/photos/2016/HCB.JPG)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 08 March, 2016, 08:05:22 am
http://southendnewsnetwork.com/news/anger-as-southend-bakery-launches-hot-cross-buns-without-offensive-cross/
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 11 March, 2016, 09:51:47 am
http://southendnewsnetwork.com/news/anger-as-southend-bakery-launches-hot-cross-buns-without-offensive-cross/
;D Local news at its best.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 24 March, 2016, 09:05:38 am
Speaking of hot cross buns, I'm going to start making these tonight - has been my standard recipe for the past few years: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/mar/13/spiced-stout-buns-dan-lepard
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Woofage on 11 April, 2016, 10:24:43 pm
Anyone use dried (as opposed to quick) yeast in their bread maker? I've used dried yeast on and off for hand baking but since I bought another bread maker recently I thought I would try it as an experiment. Basically, it works fine. So fine in fact that the loaf from a 2 hour rapid bake (plus the 15 minutes or so to activate the yeast) is just as good as one from the full 4 hour cycle.

Apologies if  has been mentioned before but I didn't read through all 9 pages and a search didn't bring anything up.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 11 April, 2016, 10:30:37 pm
I use Tesco's Fast Action Dried Yeast (http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=259921596) in our breadmaker and it works a treat.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Woofage on 11 April, 2016, 10:48:33 pm
I use Tesco's Fast Action Dried Yeast (http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=259921596) in our breadmaker and it works a treat.

That's what I would term quick - the type you can put directly into the mix (whether machine or hand job). "Dried yeast" has to be activated first in a warm sugar solution that becomes part of the liquid used in the recipe. I wouldn't normally put sugar in my bread recipes but this is an easy method.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 11 April, 2016, 10:59:16 pm
Ah. Got it. Given that it has both the words 'dry' and 'quick' in its name, I wasn't sure which it was.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 12 April, 2016, 09:01:48 am
I've switched to Dove Farm quick yeast for my bread maker on the recommendation of a friend who does a lot of baking (has a proper industrial bread oven and mixer).

https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/flour-and-ingredients/quick-yeast-1x125g/

Its nominally the same as supermarket own brand or Hovis quick yeast but I get much more reliable results with it.
You can buy it on-line or I think I got my last packet from Salisbury,
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Woofage on 12 April, 2016, 09:56:37 am
That's the stuff I normally use too. It's much more convenient and economical than those noddy sachets of quick yeast. My current packet is coming to an end and I have another brand this time (shop didn't have DF) so I'll report back with results.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 12 April, 2016, 10:59:15 am
I would have thought you'd have no problems with dried yeast so long as it was activated before putting in the machine. I used dried instead of fast when making an overnight sponge, which works fine without activation - just stir it in.

I also learned last night that a cast iron casserole lid coming out of a 250°C oven (having baked bread in it) is hot enough to set fire to a cloth oven glove if you leave it perched on top of said lid - albeit slowly enough that you only notice once you've left the room and the smoke alarm goes off... My kitchen now smells of burnt plastic, and I need to scrub melted oven glove off the casserole lid  :sick: :hand: :facepalm:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Woofage on 12 April, 2016, 12:51:18 pm
I would have thought you'd have no problems with dried yeast so long as it was activated before putting in the machine.

What surprised me though was how well it worked. Same quality of loaf that I'd get from a 4 hour cycle but in a little over 2 hours (the normal 2 hour loaf with quick/instant yeast is nice, but a little too dense).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: rafletcher on 26 April, 2016, 03:47:56 pm
Well I've been trying the Ciabatta recioe that Mrs P uses. Fisrt try was ok, but I thought the dough a little dry. Next time I added a bit more water and liked the results.  This time I have to use a different flour (Doves Farm strong white, as opposed to Allinsons very strong white). The result was somewhat more wet than I intended.... so much so that I poured it straight onto the baking tray.

(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k87/rafletcher/IMG_1269.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/rafletcher/media/IMG_1269.jpg.html)

Still it cooked ok

(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k87/rafletcher/IMG_1271.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/rafletcher/media/IMG_1271.jpg.html)

And wasn't too bad (though a little soft, as opposed to chewy) when eaten.

(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k87/rafletcher/IMG_1272.jpg) (http://s86.photobucket.com/user/rafletcher/media/IMG_1272.jpg.html)

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: numbnuts on 23 May, 2016, 03:21:17 pm
Just made my first sour dough bread and it came out all right too yeah, I normally use a bread maker, but I thought I'd make a change to do it by hand, but I didn't like the idea of kneading it for 10 minutes so I did it in my Kenwood with the dough hook. Well pleased with the results have to make it again that's for sure.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob on 03 January, 2017, 08:04:51 am
Decided that the only bread I'm going to eat (at home anyway) shall be home made, so I dug out Peter Reinharts book again and got baking. His methods are super easy and I've always had great success with them, except this time, I could not get the dough to raise..at all. (overnight, in the fridge).
Ok, so I only stretched it twice and probably didn't wait long enough, so I tried again..Wonderfully smooth dough, but would it raise? Nope.
Checked the date on the yeast; Best before 2010!!!.
Bought some new yeast and it was almost bubbling before I could get it in the fridge. and had risen more than 3x after 4 hours, which is the minimum he recommends leaving it. It was a little too wet to shape properly and would probably have benefited from staying in the fridge over night, but man, it's still good.
(http://i.imgur.com/T6dw4yll.jpg)

I highly recommend trying cold fermentation and Reinhart's methods. Very little active work (no kneading!), but the stretch & fold techniques still sucks up time, as you have to do it 3-4 times with 10 minutes intervals.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 03 January, 2017, 12:58:16 pm
What recipe did you make Jakob? Have you tried any of his stuff with sprouted flour? (Didn't realise this was a thing until about 30 mins ago).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob on 03 January, 2017, 06:09:54 pm
This was his basic lean/french bread. Never heard of sprouted flour :)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 04 January, 2017, 07:28:44 pm
This was his basic lean/french bread. Never heard of sprouted flour :)

It appears to be 5 times the price of unsprouted so I think I'll give it a miss...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Kim on 04 January, 2017, 07:58:52 pm
Bet it makes you fart, too.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 05 January, 2017, 07:23:53 am
I got a Panasonic bread maker for Christmas to replace the ancient no brand second hand one that was given to me by my MiL. The old one only made a semi decent load about one in 5 attempts. The new Panasonic one has so far made three perfect loafs out of four attempts. They are much much better than the loaves made by the old one I am very chuffed. The only failure was one loaf that looked like it hadn't mixed properly and was completely unrisen, I presume I hadn't attached the mixing blade properly.
I will now attempt something more adventurous than a standard white or wholemeal loaf. Cheese and bacon bread will be first (the Panasonic has a hopper to dipense seeds, nuts or bacon at the required time into the mix).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 05 January, 2017, 09:31:11 am
We have a Kenwood BM450 and it is amazingly reliable at knocking out consistent quality loaves.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Legs on 05 January, 2017, 02:00:44 pm
I bought my father a Morphy Richards 48280 Fastbake for Christmas two years ago and he's only needed to buy bread on a handful of occasions since.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: orienteer on 05 January, 2017, 04:53:05 pm
Been using a Panasonic bread maker for years. Like all their stuff, very reliable. Although the manual says you can just chuck all the ingredients in, I always mix them well before finally adding fat and water. I use olive oil rather than butter.

If the bread hasn't risen you probably forgot the yeast.

DAHIKT
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 06 January, 2017, 10:20:32 am
Made a really nice wholemeal loaf yesterday. Today I am trying a rapid brown loaf, slightly more yeast and a two hour process rather than four. I will have to buy more flour at the weekend as I have nearly run out !
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 07 January, 2017, 04:54:21 pm
After waiting all week for my sourdough starter to come back from the dead, I had rather a lot of it left after I'd made the levain,  so I've made some experimental dough using the starter, a tonne of Shipton Mill Smoked Stoneground Wholemeal and a dod of plain white strong. Made it up with a splash of walnut oil and guessed at the water. Hopefully it will be edible being as I made a kilo of the stuff...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 07 January, 2017, 05:17:43 pm
Rye bread today. 75% rye, 25% plain (soft) flour, with added lard and black treacle.
Not had a chance to taste it yet but it looks pretty good. Heavy for the size but that's what I would expect from rye.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: campagman on 07 January, 2017, 06:17:27 pm
Rye bread today. 75% rye, 25% plain (soft) flour, with added lard and black treacle.
Not had a chance to taste it yet but it looks pretty good. Heavy for the size but that's what I would expect from rye.
Light or dark Rye? I have been making Rye bread lately. Started off using dark Rye and Strong Plain Flour but when I'd used that up I tried some light Rye with Strong Wholemeal Flour. This later combo was harder to knead (I always make bread by hand).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 07 January, 2017, 08:06:29 pm
Light or dark Rye?
Not sure! To be honest I'd forgotten there were two sorts. I just saw the flour somewhere before Christmas, remembered a recipe I wanted to try (that's for a cake and we are still well stocked from Christmas) and bought it on spec. I've just been downstairs to check and the pack doesn't specify either. However, from the colour it's light.
Quote
I have been making Rye bread lately. Started off using dark Rye and Strong Plain Flour but when I'd used that up I tried some light Rye with Strong Wholemeal Flour. This later combo was harder to knead (I always make bread by hand).
I only make by hand as well. This mix wasn't too bad to knead, if a bit sticky.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob on 08 January, 2017, 12:26:03 am
(http://i.imgur.com/yjLGK5Zl.jpg)

More Peter Reinhart stuff, this time bagels. Under estimated how much they would rise 2nd time around, so I'll divide it into 8 bagels rather than 6 next time.   They're a little too much 'bread like' as supposed to 'bagel like', but supposedly you just need to poach them a bit longer. I'll experiment next time.
(They're still very good!)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 08 January, 2017, 12:34:34 am
I almost made cinnamon rolls this weekend but fortunately Pumpkin came and sat on my lap and saved me from bored baking-come-eating.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 08 January, 2017, 05:02:03 pm
First sourdough of the winter turned out quite pleasingly :)
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/727/31347140614_d48d67950c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PL3hMC)2017-01-08_04-58-13 (https://flic.kr/p/PL3hMC) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob on 08 January, 2017, 06:36:48 pm
That looks promising!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob on 24 January, 2017, 07:07:58 am
Peter Reinharts "Lean Bread"
Dough raised so much over night that it popped the lid of the bowl and actually had a muffin top! (which was dried out and removed before I took this picture)
(http://i.imgur.com/JGQUngl.jpg)

As always,I put the loaves too close together in the oven, but then you get to tear them apart and get this:
(http://i.imgur.com/Zppd4yL.jpg)

This is seriously the fluffiest bread I've ever made. I want to slice it up and put it my pillow case and sleep on it.
(http://i.imgur.com/1Z0HroP.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: rafletcher on 30 January, 2017, 02:44:16 pm
I attempted cornbread for the fist time. Except the bicarb was, umm, 9 years old, and I put 80% too much flour in (doing a half quantity and misread 140g as 240g). Still, it was tasty, but rather stodgy.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 22 March, 2017, 07:43:54 pm
Anyone made brioche burger rolls?
Worth it?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 22 March, 2017, 11:32:32 pm
Haven't ever tried brioche buns, as I've found brioche a bit faffy, and tbh supermarket brioche buns are good enough for me. I've had good results from these though, which are also an enriched dough: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/may/28/burger-buns-poppyseed-barbecue-recipe

Worth it for special occasions IMO.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 27 July, 2018, 09:43:10 am
Interested in people's views on yeast types. Since it has become nigh impossible to find fresh yeast (Tesco instore bakery used to hand it out for free if you asked, not sue if they still do because that would involve going into Tesco) And I've been using Alison's standard dried as long as I can remember. A while back they re-worked their production resulting in smaller granules that took longer to reconstitute, I assume that change is around making it longer lasting or summat.

Anyhoo, I used "instant" dried yeast recently while in Portugal (he sort you mix dry into flour), and to be honest I would be hard put to tell the difference. I suspect the only reason I haven't used it is that Real Men Bakers Don't Use Instant, or some prejudice like that. Anyone found any difference?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 27 July, 2018, 10:16:22 am
If you've a Morrisons near you, they may sell fresh yeast, whether in packets on the shelves (seems variable), or by asking at the bakery counter; or is there a proper baker's anywhere local to you?

OTOH, I consider myself a Real Baker*, and I use Allinson's easy bake all the time†. I haven't noticed any real difference with fresh yeast, and the convenience is hard to beat - it means I can pretty much always have pizza on the table in just over an hour. Note that Campaign for Real Bread ultra-purists may want to steer clear of instant, as most have additives (The Allinson's has an emulsifying agent and some vitamin C - I think the former is for the production process, and the latter helps kick-start the dough proving) - IIRC even some of the organic brands have these.

*My sourdough starter's well over a decade old, etc. etc.
†But then I also use my bread maker lots, and even make quiche...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 27 July, 2018, 12:44:10 pm
I've only ever used dried/easy. Life's too short.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 11 September, 2019, 09:07:32 am
Prompted by the sourdough thread, I was wandering around Bakery Bits, interested in their selection of flour. The Matthews Organic Wholemeal seemed interesting, 16Kg for £15 seems very good value. Let's see how strong....12% not bad. Where's it from? Have a guess before clicking

(click to show/hide)


Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 12 April, 2020, 09:44:52 pm
One of the only breads I ever buy is the par-baked stuff, for convenience.

I got me to thinking, if they can par-bake bread, why can't I? I tend not to make rolls because of the number to get through before they get uninteresting, but if I was to par-bake......

Anyhoo, it works well. I followed my normal practice of using the oven to raise them, then letting the oven heat up to temperature with them inside. I gave them a milk glaze, so used the first sign of browning to take them out, otherwise I'd say about 5 - 10 minutes before they are finished. Then, a few hours later back in the oven for 10 min at 180, pretty much as good as straight out of a normal bake. Tomorrow will be an experiment baking them from the fridge and at some point in the future, try from the freezer.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 14 April, 2020, 09:16:22 am
.... and the fridge experiment worked well, now just the freezer one, there's no reason not to expect it to do the same.

In separate news I'm thinking of trying the Matthews French flour (https://www.fwpmatthews.co.uk/product/matthews-t55-french-bread-flour/) ....but, 9.5% protein!! That chimes with when I was experimenting year ago, trying to copy a baguette without French flour, the best results I got were from plain (not strong) flour. They may have been "best" but they still weren't up to much.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 20 April, 2020, 08:14:39 pm
..... and the freezer 'speriment was even better. Defrosted for a minute in the microwave then into a 200 oven for 10, perfection with the milk glaze working well. No idea why I thought there was some mystery about the shop bought par-baked stuff, although readying it for non-frozen packaging is likely to have some tech around it.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 21 April, 2020, 07:57:59 am
The Matthews Organic Wholemeal seemed interesting, 16Kg for £15 seems very good value. Let's see how strong....12% not bad. Where's it from? Have a guess before clicking

I would have guessed Canada, which seems to be where most of the strong flour comes from. Apparently, we can't grow the right type of wheat in the UK climate. (I expect you knew this already.)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 24 April, 2020, 09:37:22 am
MrsC  has perfected making sourdough gluten free loaves, with real crust and flavour.

I haven't eaten bread that tasted like this in 24 years. I'm going to get very fat.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Russell on 24 April, 2020, 11:49:37 am
Thanks for the suggestion of Mathews, we have just ordered 15kg of 2 types of flour as we are getting a little fed up with loaves made with white flour which is all have been able to buy from supermarkets so far.

Even the addition of spelt, seeds and so on can't really get the body in to them.

Unfortunately sourdough loaves using a starter have not yet worked (well to be precise, the starter has not worked) although the French sponge (poolish) method sourdough does work.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 24 April, 2020, 11:51:29 am
MrsC  has perfected making sourdough gluten free loaves, with real crust and flavour.

I haven't eaten bread that tasted like this in 24 years. I'm going to get very fat.

What flour do you use? I tried making a 100% buckwheat bread but it wasn't exactly a 100% success...

I've done 100% rye successfully but that's low gluten, rather than gluten free.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 24 April, 2020, 01:44:25 pm
MrsC  has perfected making sourdough gluten free loaves, with real crust and flavour.

I haven't eaten bread that tasted like this in 24 years. I'm going to get very fat.

What flour do you use? I tried making a 100% buckwheat bread but it wasn't exactly a 100% success...

I've done 100% rye successfully but that's low gluten, rather than gluten free.
I'll have to ask her. It isn't one flour.

https://www.freshisreal.com/buckwheat-sourdough-loaf-gluten-free-vegan/#tasty-recipes-4516
(I use linseed instead of psyllium husk, ordinary sugar and added 2 tsp of xantham gum. Oats, linseed and sunflower seeds I whizzed up in the herb chopper to make a coarse flour.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Russell on 24 April, 2020, 02:08:24 pm
For lunch we have just cut into a loaf made with courgette and butter milk.  Verr nice!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 24 April, 2020, 02:12:45 pm
https://www.freshisreal.com/buckwheat-sourdough-loaf-gluten-free-vegan/#tasty-recipes-4516
(I use linseed instead of psyllium husk, ordinary sugar and added 2 tsp of xantham gum. Oats, linseed and sunflower seeds I whizzed up in the herb chopper to make a coarse flour.

Interesting, thanks. I tried xanthan gum in my attempt but obviously it wasn't an effective replacement for gluten by itself. Arrowroot and psyllium sound like good additions.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 24 April, 2020, 03:41:55 pm
Given that my stocks of strony white flour are getting far lower than I like, I'm augmenting my bread with the addition of 60g porridge oats. Most days I make a loaf, and the recipe at the moment is 170 strong white, 170g wholemeal, 60g jumbo porridge oats. However, I am hoping to lay my hands on a couple of 16kg bags this evening.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hellymedic on 26 April, 2020, 08:28:14 pm
Just been on the phone to socially-distanced Mum (84).

She said Dad (89.7) fancied a baguette, which was something she had not baked before, so she Googled and baked.

SUCCESS!

Mum has also frozen portions of dough for future baking.

Mum is rather good...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 April, 2020, 07:57:35 pm
Prompted by the sourdough thread, I was wandering around Bakery Bits, interested in their selection of flour. The Matthews Organic Wholemeal seemed interesting, 16Kg for £15 seems very good value. Let's see how strong....12% not bad. Where's it from? Have a guess before clicking

(click to show/hide)
Breadbasket of Europe, traditionally, due to its "black soil". (As Citoyen says, I'm sure you and almost everyone else reading this already knew that, but hey... )
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 28 April, 2020, 08:06:53 pm
Scored 16Kg of Carr's T55 off Amazon at a sensible £1.10/Kg, so Baguettes'R'Us when it arrives.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 02 May, 2020, 12:48:20 pm
First try, none too shabby but still work to do

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/--OfRzuo-VfA/Xq1dyIVSuRI/AAAAAAADOhk/kUE2qcYkb7QX1MlCDoI0bX_2hhdcAX5swCPcBGAsYHg/s1600/IMG_20200502_110417.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 02 May, 2020, 02:11:25 pm
First try, none too shabby but still work to do

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/--OfRzuo-VfA/Xq1dyIVSuRI/AAAAAAADOhk/kUE2qcYkb7QX1MlCDoI0bX_2hhdcAX5swCPcBGAsYHg/s1600/IMG_20200502_110417.jpg)
Looking good. You’re going to have to change your name to Jambon.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hellymedic on 02 May, 2020, 03:53:29 pm
Mum's baguettes were probably made with flour bought from Sainsbury's, as I'm doing much of her procurement.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 02 May, 2020, 08:53:50 pm
I made some baguettes and I thought they were an awful lot of effort for little reward. I've decided that breadmakers exist for a reason.

I now have a lot of flour - I met the excellent Gattopardo near the M25 nd he supplied me with 16kg each of strong white and wholemeal flour, from Wrights mill, Ponders End.

I don think that Ponders End is a really depressing name for a place.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 02 May, 2020, 09:22:54 pm
Anywhere online that has non-industrial quantities of flour and yeast?

Last thing I made was a first attempt at soda bread (no yeast y’see):

(https://dl.dropbox.com/s/5nnzpgx90wmpzp5/2020-04-30%2019.15.09.jpg?dl=0)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: ScumOfTheRoad on 02 May, 2020, 09:40:00 pm
Yum! Send me a slice for my breakfast tomorrow?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 03 May, 2020, 10:31:24 am
I made some baguettes and I thought they were an awful lot of effort for little reward.

No more effort than normal breadmaking, but each to their own.

Anyhow, here's the summary of the first baking.

Making was much as any loaf, with the exception of no oil, no added sugar of any kind, 76% water dough, double yeast
Kneaded a little more, given the low gluten.
Top & bottom heat, with water in the solid oven tray (neff have solid shelf  as well as wire grill- perfect for this)
Baguette holder fashioned by folding two silicone  sheets into the wire grills, forming a V.

Good:
Overall taste and texture was good, still more like a supermarket baguette than an artisan baker, but I'll take that.
Texture was a little close, rather than open and airy. Repeated proving may improve (ha!) this
Strong indications that par-baking will work well

Not so good:
The baguette holder left the bottoms not-crusty. I'll either buy a baguette tray or make one from perforated mild steel.
Shape needs a little work, but actually should be straightforward to improve.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 03 May, 2020, 10:46:34 am


(https://i.ibb.co/KrfKW2P/IMG-20200430-201908-421.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6WTXFHM)

Cheese and green chilli sourdough.

Disappeared within a morning
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 03 May, 2020, 07:43:21 pm
Since everyone is making bread I made soda bread as I have some gone off milk and used french bread flour and t45 flour.

(https://i.imgur.com/zd8lxubl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZpAJsCbl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PkAQVQnl.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 03 May, 2020, 08:23:43 pm
Cheese and green chilli sourdough.

Looks damn good.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 03 May, 2020, 09:35:56 pm
It was like crack....couldnt leave it alone. Just made another one but tripled the chilli content.

Also made a standard pure white sourdough (run out of rye)

(https://i.ibb.co/LxL5ztv/IMG-20200503-212417-709.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5rNFW82)

Also got a sack of 00 flour, our own eggs, so fresh pasta tomorrow,

and...finally....guess what I found in the garden....

(https://i.ibb.co/8YndxVK/IMG-20200503-213822-589.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KKcLsH0)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 03 May, 2020, 09:44:01 pm
Now my standard white sourdough is tasty enough but it doesn't rise anything like that, or at least the bubbles in it are much smaller. I use 500g strong white flour, 350g starter 190ml water. Prove for 2-3 hours, knock back then into a long banneton for around 7 hours, after which it's just nudging the top. Both provings i cover it with a muslin cloth.
Lazy bacteria? Rubbish baker? Other?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 03 May, 2020, 09:45:18 pm
Not enough water, and dont knock it back.  Are you shaping it to get spring?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 03 May, 2020, 09:47:09 pm
I tried wetter but it sort of splurged over the baking sheet when I tipped it out. I'll increase it a bit once I've bought more flour.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 03 May, 2020, 09:49:16 pm
Try this:

200g sourdough starter.
250ml of water @ 28°C (ish) (1/3 boiling 2/3 cold).
400g Canadian Very Strong white flour.

Chuck it all in bowl. Mix with a spatula, leave for 25 mins to ‘autolyse’ (soak up the water properly).
Add 10g salt.
Knead on low speed in mixer for about  10mins.
Cling film over mixing bowl and leave to bulk prove at normal room temp for about 3-4hrs or until the dough has about doubled in size.  Should look like meringue.

Turn out. Shape. Bench rest 15 min.

Fold and shape.
Place into proving basket. 3-4hrs for final rise.

Pre-set cloche or cast iron casserole in oven

Bake in cloche at 240°C for 42min. (Take lid off at 25-30 min).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 03 May, 2020, 09:50:10 pm
I tried wetter but it sort of splurged over the baking sheet when I tipped it out. I'll increase it a bit once I've bought more flour.

Try above recipe. I'll find some youtube vids for shaping


Here you go: https://youtu.be/8uz97MZZmRg
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 03 May, 2020, 09:59:15 pm
I guess this is bread too...

(https://i.ibb.co/0VWd1gm/IMG-20200415-194155-991.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Dg6Smxz)

(https://i.ibb.co/5ctfqDj/IMG-20200424-192804-560.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DKsS3XM)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 03 May, 2020, 10:12:25 pm
C'mon then flatus, let's have the chili bread recipe?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 03 May, 2020, 10:14:04 pm
Bugger the chilli bread - GPS coordinates for truffles, if you please
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 03 May, 2020, 10:17:17 pm
C'mon then flatus, let's have the chili bread recipe?

As per recipe above but stick in 150g of strong cheddar, and finely sliced green finger chillies (indian food type). Add it when when it goes in the mixer
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 03 May, 2020, 10:19:46 pm
Bugger the chilli bread - GPS coordinates for truffles, if you please

Had some truffle shavings on linguine for dinner, with pepper, olive oil and a touch of lemon juice. Verr nice.

Found about £100 worth. Going to leave the area alone now and have another root around in July.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 03 May, 2020, 10:26:39 pm
I tried wetter but it sort of splurged over the baking sheet when I tipped it out. I'll increase it a bit once I've bought more flour.

Try above recipe. I'll find some youtube vids for shaping


Here you go: https://youtu.be/8uz97MZZmRg
Brilliant, thanks. Shaping is what I'm not doing.  I shall learn and experiment.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 03 May, 2020, 10:35:22 pm
It pays to be quite gentle. Don't knock the dough back and dont prove too long. First prove in the mixing bowl 2-3 hours for dough to double. Proving basket 3-4hours
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 03 May, 2020, 11:33:59 pm
Found about £100 worth. Going to leave the area alone now and have another root around in July.

Bloody hell. I thought I was doing well discovering trompettes de mort in the woods next door.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 04 May, 2020, 03:34:52 am
Bugger the chilli bread - GPS coordinates for truffles, if you please

Had some truffle shavings on linguine for dinner, with pepper, olive oil and a touch of lemon juice. Verr nice.

Found about £100 worth. Going to leave the area alone now and have another root around in July.

Did you use a pig/dog or know where to look?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 04 May, 2020, 04:32:57 am
Bugger the chilli bread - GPS coordinates for truffles, if you please

Had some truffle shavings on linguine for dinner, with pepper, olive oil and a touch of lemon juice. Verr nice.

Found about £100 worth. Going to leave the area alone now and have another root around in July.

Did you use a pig/dog or know where to look?

My wife was snuffling around under a tree in the garden.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 04 May, 2020, 08:12:58 am

Did you use a pig/dog or know where to look?


My wife was snuffling around under a tree in the garden.


So that'll be doggie style then (set 'em up, etc)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: The Family Cyclist on 06 May, 2020, 01:50:56 pm
I have a problem in that my kids love my home made bread. Made two loaves Sunday and froze one. It got two days sandwiches before they had eaten the rest

However the youngest was excited as had shop bread today after our weekly shop. Yes the white crap plastic stuff
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: T42 on 06 May, 2020, 02:40:27 pm
Bugger the chilli bread - GPS coordinates for truffles, if you please

Had some truffle shavings on linguine for dinner, with pepper, olive oil and a touch of lemon juice. Verr nice.

Found about £100 worth. Going to leave the area alone now and have another root around in July.

Did you use a pig/dog or know where to look?

My wife was snuffling around under a tree in the garden.

The father of one of the girls in my son's class used to hunt truffles for sale.  One day she turned up with a small basket of them to share round.  They never reached us: the buggers ate them all right there, like buns. "Very nice," said my son.  "Hmnphfffgh," said I.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: T42 on 06 May, 2020, 02:43:50 pm
Anyway, this to say that, MrsT being indisposed, I have just baked my first loaf of bread. Rye bread with lots of seeds for a low glycaemic index.  MrsT, watching from the touchline, says it looks like bread.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 06 May, 2020, 05:34:03 pm
I have a bag of wholemeal spelt flour in the cupboard that I bought ages ago but forgot why... But the bread bin was running low so I made another loaf today, and decided to use 20% spelt flour.

Just tasted a bit.... Mmmm, not bad at all.

Interestingly, it seems noticeably lighter than a loaf made with the same proportion of wholemeal wheat flour.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 06 May, 2020, 06:15:24 pm
When ICBA (ie, not right now) my "standard" mix is 1.2Kg Wholemeal, 100g Rye, 300g spelt and 100g white making two large loaves. I find it has a good balance of flavour and density.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 06 May, 2020, 06:36:47 pm
When ICBA (ie, not right now) my "standard" mix is 1.2Kg Wholemeal, 100g Rye, 300g spelt and 100g white making two large loaves. I find it has a good balance of flavour and density.

That sounds too wholemealy for me. I've never really got on with 100% wholemeal but since getting into making my own bread, I've come to realise that there are no rules, you can simply go with whatever suits your tastes - so I find about 20% wholemeal is enough to give a bit of flavour and texture but retain most of the characteristics of white bread. Obviously you like wholemeal bread more than me.

I like to use a bit of (light) rye too, again about 20%, but alas I've not been able to get hold of any rye flour since lockdown and my stock has run out.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 06 May, 2020, 07:24:41 pm
What, if any, is the consensus regarding rye flour amongst the aficionados? I've often used it as a lesser ingredient with white & wholemeal, typically 200g white, 150g wholemeal, 50g white, but at those ratios you hardly notice that it is there. I notice that Marriages have rye flour at under £13 for 16kg. I don't want to buy a load of stuff I can't use before its best-before date though.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 06 May, 2020, 08:24:29 pm
MrsC and I both like rye bread, but I'd be wary of buying that much. 100% rye is very hard work. 50:50 can be nice. Much less and it gets difficult to tell it's there.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 06 May, 2020, 09:27:32 pm
I just asked Mrs Pcolbeck to get me some rye flour tomorrow when she goes to the scoop shop. I am going to experiment.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 06 May, 2020, 09:55:23 pm
Bit of dark rye in the mix is lovely. 10%-20%
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: TimC on 07 May, 2020, 09:44:42 am
Flour. I remember that. Does it still exist?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 May, 2020, 10:04:51 am
Apparently so....

(https://i.ibb.co/tL0rDHJ/IMG-20200506-234614-794.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KKtvW5r)
image hosting (https://imgbb.com/)

It's who you know  ;D
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: robgul on 07 May, 2020, 10:22:05 am
Flour. I remember that. Does it still exist?

Mrs robgul has today purchased, online, a 16kg bag of strong white breadflour - even with the delivery cost it's only a few pence per loaf more than the usual flour in 1.5kg bags from the supermarket.   We also have an artisan baker about 5 miles away that is selling breadflour re-bagged in kilos from his bulk stock.

Rob
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 07 May, 2020, 10:30:27 am
We've managed to score : -
1 x 16Kg plain flour from a resourceful chap from a flat somewhere in Sutton
1 x 16Kg strong white bread flour from the same place
1.5Kg rye flour from a shop in Sheen
1.5Kg wholemeal flour from Waitrose

We have sufficient granary in stock.

And yesterday Mrs hatler managed to swap two white loaves and a jar of home made damson jam for 250g of dried yeast from someone who bought 500g online but will never use that much before it's past its use by date.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: TimC on 07 May, 2020, 11:01:31 am
Blimey. I think a 16kg bag would suffice for the rest of my life! I managed to get a 1.5kg bag of plain flour from the Co-op a week or so ago, but that was for a neighbour. She makes me cakes occasionally, so there was some benefit! But that was the one and only occasion in the last 7 weeks I've seen any flour in any shop (and there was only that one bag on the shelf)..
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 07 May, 2020, 02:21:41 pm
And lo I have 2kg of Hercules extra strong and 1kg of rye flour. The Hercules first to see if its any different to the Dove Farm I have been using.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: neilrj on 07 May, 2020, 02:28:44 pm
All Asda and Morrison's with in house bakeries are selling their bulk flours loose, I think it's rebagged in kilos. Asda as ever will sell you fresh yeast. Not used the aforesaid as we like Strong Canadian, used to be Sainsbury's own but now Shipton Mill in a 16kg bag that we've shared locally.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: robgul on 07 May, 2020, 09:39:10 pm
Blimey. I think a 16kg bag would suffice for the rest of my life! I managed to get a 1.5kg bag of plain flour from the Co-op a week or so ago, but that was for a neighbour. She makes me cakes occasionally, so there was some benefit! But that was the one and only occasion in the last 7 weeks I've seen any flour in any shop (and there was only that one bag on the shelf)..

We make between 3 & 4 loaves a week - not that large as they are made in a Panasonic machine . . . not by hand.  the 16kg will do for a while!

Rob
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 08 May, 2020, 09:10:28 pm
I've had a moment of madness and bought another 32kg - strong brown with big wheat flakes, and wholemeal plain flour, for cakes & pastry, but with a bit more fibre. I suspect I might get rid of some of the latter to neighbours. i also need buckets so I bought a coulpe of those - 30 litres each with a lid..
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: HeltorChasca on 08 May, 2020, 09:31:13 pm
My neighbour has a baguette in a cage at his house.

He says it was bread in captivity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 08 May, 2020, 09:43:30 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/DLzqs3V/IMG-20200508-201124-115.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zNQkjKn)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 08 May, 2020, 09:52:20 pm
I’d forgotten about this thread. Our old bread machine died a while back and didn’t get replaced and by-hand was rare. With a bit more time for baking lately Mrs Dan slipped on the internet and ordered 25kg of flour (one bloody heavy bag to get up to our 1st floor kitchen) and I’ve got a mostly rye sourdough starter going and my 5th loaf is currently rising.

I’m making with 500-600g flour and only about 150g of starter (that’s about half the pot), salt and honey. It’ll go in the fridge overnight and be baked in time for elevensies (I’m a cereal for breakfast and a lie in sort). No oil and less starter than the recipes suggest, but it’s tasty enough to be gone in two lunchtimes. I’m not quite sure how varying the recipe will change things.

Mrs Dan also makes a nice focaccia. We seem to have run out of the old supply of non-white flour though :(
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 09 May, 2020, 08:00:47 am
Hercules Extra Stong is very good. Made a really nice bog standard white loaf with a good crust.
Now to experiment with the rye.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: andyoxon on 09 May, 2020, 08:06:34 am
Are those with bulk (or other) bags of flour concerned at all about weevils (etc) showing up for a good time? Any issues?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: nicknack on 09 May, 2020, 08:11:38 am
I think this belongs here. (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/ng-interactive/2020/may/09/stephen-collins-on-baking-bread-during-lockdown-cartoon)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 09 May, 2020, 08:22:21 am
I think this belongs here. (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/ng-interactive/2020/may/09/stephen-collins-on-baking-bread-during-lockdown-cartoon)

That’s what I came here for - 10 minutes too late...  :D
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 09 May, 2020, 08:22:51 am
Are those with bulk (or other) bags of flour concerned at all about weevils (etc) showing up for a good time? Any issues?

Not really. Extra protein
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 09 May, 2020, 09:05:15 am
Are those with bulk (or other) bags of flour concerned at all about weevils (etc) showing up for a good time? Any issues?

No issues so far. At the current rate I'd expect our big bag to be gone faster than the smaller bags when bread making was only occasional and I don't remember finding anything then either.

That cartoon is good - I'm under no illusions that I'd have the time and energy during the week ordinarily.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 09 May, 2020, 10:03:01 am
Are those with bulk (or other) bags of flour concerned at all about weevils (etc) showing up for a good time? Any issues?

No. In the past 3 weeks we have socialised more with neighbours than in the previous 25 years, thanks to a enterprising young chap a couple of doors down leafletting a few dozen houses and setting up a Whatsapp group. Our road does not lend itself to any kind of "neighbourhood" feel: busy, narrow, narrow pavements, few of the houses have front gardens. Also, quite a lot of old-people flats.

I don't think I will have any trouble getting rid of flour.
Title: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 09 May, 2020, 12:34:35 pm
That cartoon is good - I'm under no illusions that I'd have the time and energy during the week ordinarily.

I haven’t bought a loaf in a shop since last September. I mostly do my baking at weekends, and keep a supply in the freezer for when the fresh stuff runs out.

This was fine while I was the only one in the house eating bread, but now my son is back home from uni and with us for the next two years at least, so we’re getting through a lot more bread.

Not sure what’s going to happen when I go back to work but I didn’t have problems maintaining my sourdough starter pre-lockdown. It’s neither hard work nor time-consuming

I’m hoping that most people won’t have so much time for baking after it’s all over, then I might be able to get hold of rye flour.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 09 May, 2020, 01:01:44 pm
In a normal year, we have about 20 weekends away from home. We only buy bread when on holiday.
My standard batch is four pounds of flour, by hand, which makes either for 'two pound' loaves (which is a month's worth of breakfasts) or 40 rolls (which is two month's worth of lunches for me, MrsC preferring a jacket potato). They all go into the freezer, having cut the loaves in half. I also make bread for our re-enacting displays. I use a sponge method. All the water, all the yeast, about half the flour for one rise, then add the rest of the flour, knead, then leave for a second rise, and finally shape, third rise, cook. 
Usual procedure is get the sponge going while sorting breakfast. Go to parkrun. Once home again do stage two. Then we usually end up going shopping. Third stage around or after lunch. Total time spent is under an hour. Elapsed time obviously much longer.

So it is possible to fit bread making into a busy lifestyle and I wouldn't want to go back to buying.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 09 May, 2020, 03:22:14 pm
That cartoon is good - I'm under no illusions that I'd have the time and energy during the week ordinarily.

I haven’t bought a loaf in a shop since last September. I mostly do my baking at weekends, and keep a supply in the freezer for when the fresh stuff runs out.

This was fine while I was the only one in the house eating bread, but now my son is back home from uni and with us for the next two years at least, so we’re getting through a lot more bread.

Not sure what’s going to happen when I go back to work but I didn’t have problems maintaining my sourdough starter pre-lockdown. It’s neither hard work nor time-consuming

I’m hoping that most people won’t have so much time for baking after it’s all over, then I might be able to get hold of rye flour.

https://flour.co.uk/buy-our-flour/16kg-sacks

I refer the Hon Mem to my local flour mill. I don't know whether you really want 16kg at once, but Marriages restock frequently in small batches and it runs out fast. A couple of days ago I ordered 16kg of strong brown and 16kg of golden wholemeal plain flour.

Edit: they have rye flour in stock as I type. £12.49 for 16kg. Bargain!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 09 May, 2020, 04:05:53 pm
Edit: they have rye flour in stock as I type. £12.49 for 16kg. Bargain!

It may well have been true at the time of typing but... arses. That really is quick.

I can get hold of white and wholemeal wheat flour easily enough from my wife's friend who is a baker, but they don't do any of the fancy "artisan" stuff like rye or spelt.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 09 May, 2020, 05:55:12 pm
Just keep an eye on the website. When I bought the bag of "golden" plain flour and the brown the other day, both were sold out once I'd bought them.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 09 May, 2020, 07:16:57 pm
In a normal year, we have about 20 weekends away from home. We only buy bread when on holiday.
My standard batch is four pounds of flour, by hand, which makes either for 'two pound' loaves (which is a month's worth of breakfasts) or 40 rolls (which is two month's worth of lunches for me, MrsC preferring a jacket potato). They all go into the freezer, having cut the loaves in half. I also make bread for our re-enacting displays. I use a sponge method. All the water, all the yeast, about half the flour for one rise, then add the rest of the flour, knead, then leave for a second rise, and finally shape, third rise, cook. 
Usual procedure is get the sponge going while sorting breakfast. Go to parkrun. Once home again do stage two. Then we usually end up going shopping. Third stage around or after lunch. Total time spent is under an hour. Elapsed time obviously much longer.

So it is possible to fit bread making into a busy lifestyle and I wouldn't want to go back to buying.

On a day when I'm mostly about fitting in baking seems easy enough. I'm favouring mix and knead after supper; knock back and into a banetton then the fridge before bed, out for an hour or so while I have breakfast and wash, then into the oven as I do my morning coffee, emails etc. If I were out for 10 hours at a stretch in the day it gets harder to fit all that in. I like fresh bread, but not enough to set an earlier alarm or work part time! Our freezer is pretty much tetris to get stuff in already, so I'm not convinced I'd make that work either. It'd be a nice weekend treat still, and as citoyen says keeping the starter going isn't so hard.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 10 May, 2020, 12:35:32 am
Edit: they have rye flour in stock as I type. £12.49 for 16kg. Bargain!

It may well have been true at the time of typing but... arses. That really is quick.

I can get hold of white and wholemeal wheat flour easily enough from my wife's friend who is a baker, but they don't do any of the fancy "artisan" stuff like rye or spelt.

There again now, it seems. https://flour.co.uk/view/dark-rye
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 11 May, 2020, 01:26:37 pm
Hmm 50% dark rye loaf has come out not so good. There is a fair bit of white flour that hasn't been incorporated into the do and i stuck to one corner.
I wonder what it's like inside, I'll find out in 10 minutes when it cools enough to cut.

Next time I think I will mix the rye and normal strong flour together manually before dumping it in the bread machine.

Update:

This inside was fine. It was just a thin layer of white flour on 1 x 1 x 1 inch corner of the crust.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 12 May, 2020, 12:17:47 pm
Brioche buns ready for last Saturday's home made burger-fest.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49885712073_4d5089a249_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2j1ejd2)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 12 May, 2020, 03:30:37 pm
Here are some free kindle bread books:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B087ZQMY4T
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0875FV6JP
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0883GH95Y
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B087T9KNMK
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B087Z2F7RH
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B087TS1TRV
And a pizza one
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B087ZK6BXC/
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: trekker12 on 13 May, 2020, 11:47:41 am
Are those with bulk (or other) bags of flour concerned at all about weevils (etc) showing up for a good time? Any issues?

Not really. Extra protein

And always take the lesser of two weevils  ::-)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: robgul on 13 May, 2020, 05:04:11 pm
Our 16kg sack of bread flour arrived today  . . . should keep us going for a bit.

Rob
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Woofage on 14 May, 2020, 10:21:19 am
I got some live yeast from a local baker. Haven't used it for years. I've managed to ascertain the right quantity for use in the breadmaker though and the results are better than I've ever had :thumbsup:.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Little Jim on 14 May, 2020, 11:15:59 am
I got some live yeast from a local baker. Haven't used it for years. I've managed to ascertain the right quantity for use in the breadmaker though and the results are better than I've ever had :thumbsup:.

It freezes quite well too if you have got loads left over.  Cut it into the lumps the right size for the next mix and then rub it into flour and freeze individually as a sort of powder wrapped in cling film or small plastic bags.  When you are ready for the next mix just remove from the freeze, allow to thaw and away you go.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 14 May, 2020, 03:46:59 pm
I tried wetter but it sort of splurged over the baking sheet when I tipped it out. I'll increase it a bit once I've bought more flour.

Try above recipe. I'll find some youtube vids for shaping


Here you go: https://youtu.be/8uz97MZZmRg
Reporting back

Can't get any super hard Canadian flour at the vmoment, so used your recipe with the strong white I get from my local farm shop.  Studied the shaping video (and a couple of others) and had a go. I don't have a cloche or cast iron casserole so have been using the bowl of water in the bottom of the over to good effect.

Result: Much airier bread. Gorgeous taste too. I need to refine my shaping to suit  the long oval proving basket I have. I've spotted a couple of YouTube videos to help.

Thanks, all very useful.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 May, 2020, 04:02:14 pm
Great!  :thumbsup:

An iron casserole made all the difference to mine. Have a Hunt in tkmaxx at some point as they tend to have that sort of thing quite cheaply.

Next project...just before mixing, lob in 150g of strong grated cheddar and 3 or 4 sliced green chillies (hot indian ones, not tha pointless dutch shit) Then proceed as normal.

Just trust me on this one  ;)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: The Family Cyclist on 14 May, 2020, 04:17:06 pm
I have inadvertently ended up with a lot of plain flour. Some will get mixed with strong for pizza bases but considering trying to make bread with some if I run out of strong. Any tips?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 14 May, 2020, 04:34:29 pm
Great!  :thumbsup:

An iron casserole made all the difference to mine. Have a Hunt in tkmaxx at some point as they tend to have that sort of thing quite cheaply.

Next project...just before mixing, lob in 150g of strong grated cheddar and 3 or 4 sliced green chillies (hot indian ones, not tha pointless dutch shit) Then proceed as normal.

Just trust me on this one  ;)
When you use the casserole do you preheat it before putting the dough in?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 14 May, 2020, 05:51:52 pm
When you use the casserole do you preheat it before putting the dough in?

Yes. Makes putting the loaf into it a bit tricky, which is why a cloche is better. Or if your casserole dish has a flat lid, you can simply invert it.

I quite fancy one of these Fourneau cast iron ovens - not cheap, but cheaper and easier than building a proper bread oven in the garden. They're also launching a 'levee' to make lifting your loaf into a casserole dish easier:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stranddesign/fourneau-grande-and-levee
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 14 May, 2020, 06:09:30 pm
OK, for the quantities in Flatus' recipe and my recipe of about 1kg of dough I've been using a 30cm x 16cm oval banneton. I also have a 22cm round banneton.

Is the 22cm big enough for the Flatus recipe, so I can get a nice boule loaf? 

Will a stainless steel mixing bowl inverted over the dough on a baking sheet work as a substitute cloche?

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 14 May, 2020, 06:31:07 pm
When you use the casserole do you preheat it before putting the dough in?

Yes. Makes putting the loaf into it a bit tricky, which is why a cloche is better. Or if your casserole dish has a flat lid, you can simply invert it.

I quite fancy one of these Fourneau cast iron ovens - not cheap, but cheaper and easier than building a proper bread oven in the garden. They're also launching a 'levee' to make lifting your loaf into a casserole dish easier:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stranddesign/fourneau-grande-and-levee

Hmm. Maybe I could put an upturned dish over my pizza steel lump of metal off ebay. When it comes. 🤔
Still sounds like quite a lot of opportunity to burn myself though.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 14 May, 2020, 06:37:47 pm
OK, for the quantities in Flatus' recipe and my recipe of about 1kg of dough I've been using a 30cm x 16cm oval banneton. I also have a 22cm round banneton.

Is the 22cm big enough for the Flatus recipe, so I can get a nice boule loaf? 

Will a stainless steel mixing bowl inverted over the dough on a baking sheet work as a substitute cloche?


Bakery Bits have a 1kg basket that measures 22.5x8.5cm internal dia x depth if that helps you decide.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 May, 2020, 07:31:49 pm
Great!  :thumbsup:

An iron casserole made all the difference to mine. Have a Hunt in tkmaxx at some point as they tend to have that sort of thing quite cheaply.

Next project...just before mixing, lob in 150g of strong grated cheddar and 3 or 4 sliced green chillies (hot indian ones, not tha pointless dutch shit) Then proceed as normal.

Just trust me on this one  ;)
When you use the casserole do you preheat it before putting the dough in?

Yes, for at least 40 minutes.    I used a wooden pizza peel, lay it on top of the banetton, invert, then wiggle out the loaf. Then I slide it in to casserole.
For my large oval casserole I increase the ingredients by 50% and get a stonking huge well risen loaf
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 May, 2020, 07:33:42 pm
OK, for the quantities in Flatus' recipe and my recipe of about 1kg of dough I've been using a 30cm x 16cm oval banneton. I also have a 22cm round banneton.

Is the 22cm big enough for the Flatus recipe, so I can get a nice boule loaf? 

Will a stainless steel mixing bowl inverted over the dough on a baking sheet work as a substitute cloche?

Don't know about the banetton size. I think mine is about 25cm diameter.

For the mixing bowl thing, give it a try. Remeber the loaf needs space to rise because itll burn the top if not.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 14 May, 2020, 08:34:12 pm
I have inadvertently ended up with a lot of plain flour. Some will get mixed with strong for pizza bases but considering trying to make bread with some if I run out of strong. Any tips?
You probably won't get the rise you would expect from hard wheat, but it will be perfectly edible.
They discussed this on Radio 4's Kitchen Cabinet on Saturday (available on BBC Sounds and as a podcast).
We will be having a go with plain flour when the re-enacting gets going again. Hard wheats weren't available until the 1860s (according to the programme) and we do cooking from the 1640s.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 15 May, 2020, 12:38:17 pm
50% rye load 2.0

I mixed the rye and white flour together by hand before dumping it in the breadmaker this time. Much better, no unmixed bits at all and a better load all round.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 15 May, 2020, 02:07:30 pm
50% rye load 2.0

I mixed the rye and white flour together by hand before dumping it in the breadmaker this time. Much better, no unmixed bits at all and a better load all round.

Did you use the same recipe as for a standard white loaf? If so, another thing you might try is increasing the water content - dark rye will absorb a lot more water than white flour, or even wholemeal.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 15 May, 2020, 03:01:23 pm
50% rye load 2.0

I mixed the rye and white flour together by hand before dumping it in the breadmaker this time. Much better, no unmixed bits at all and a better load all round.

Did you use the same recipe as for a standard white loaf? If so, another thing you might try is increasing the water content - dark rye will absorb a lot more water than white flour, or even wholemeal.

No the Panasonic has a dedicated rye bread mode (and dedicated rye paddle) and recipes for rye.  It did have more water than the standard white loaf.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: The Family Cyclist on 15 May, 2020, 03:06:17 pm
I did have The kitchen cabinet on but as always people keep interrupting me at work when I'm trying to listen to interesting things
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 15 May, 2020, 03:41:45 pm
No the Panasonic has a dedicated rye bread mode (and dedicated rye paddle) and recipes for rye.  It did have more water than the standard white loaf.

Can you put my mind at rest, please? We are onto our 3rd Panasonic (got the first one about 16 years ago) and I'm convinced that the rye paddle came with it as standard. But I can't find it! My dear wife tells me she thinks it didn't and she's never seen it.

I've only every used rye flour as an additive - up to 50g in a 400g loaf, so there's never been  need to use the rye-specific paddle.

Incidenally, it looks as though Marriages are catching up with their stock again. Most of their lines are online now.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: JenM on 15 May, 2020, 03:46:48 pm
My Panasonic came with a rye paddle as standard. Used it once without much success.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 15 May, 2020, 04:07:21 pm
Yup Rye paddle came with it. Has some cut outs in it compared to the standard one. I'm amazed I found it as it got chucked in a draw two years ago when I got the bread maker and this week was the first time I needed it.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 16 May, 2020, 11:35:35 pm
I've just tried a dark rye recipie. That was a bit sticky, and hasn't come out very loaf like - despite rising better than most dough during the day.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 18 May, 2020, 02:16:43 pm
I bought some of this: https://flour.co.uk/view/country-malt-16kg-sack.

I made the first loaf with it this morning. Absolutely outstanding!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: neilrj on 18 May, 2020, 07:28:19 pm
Try this:

200g sourdough starter.
250ml of water @ 28°C (ish) (1/3 boiling 2/3 cold).
400g Canadian Very Strong white flour.

Chuck it all in bowl. Mix with a spatula, leave for 25 mins to ‘autolyse’ (soak up the water properly).
Add 10g salt.
Knead on low speed in mixer for about  10mins.
Cling film over mixing bowl and leave to bulk prove at normal room temp for about 3-4hrs or until the dough has about doubled in size.  Should look like meringue.

Turn out. Shape. Bench rest 15 min.

Fold and shape.
Place into proving basket. 3-4hrs for final rise.

Pre-set cloche or cast iron casserole in oven

Bake in cloche at 240°C for 42min. (Take lid off at 25-30 min).

So we scaled that down to our banaton/dutch oven and got this:- (https://i.ibb.co/ZYYDcLK/Bread1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LJJ79k6)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 18 May, 2020, 07:34:32 pm
That looks very good. I had a go using "strong bread flour" from the local farm shop and going for a boule loaf (see previous discussions on proving basket size).  The basket was fine but I obviously need to work on my dough shaping as it collapsed when I tipped it out from the basket. An upturned stainless casserole did the job of the cloche.

Taste and structure is fine, a marked improvement on the original recipe. 
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 18 May, 2020, 08:04:20 pm
Try this:

200g sourdough starter.
250ml of water @ 28°C (ish) (1/3 boiling 2/3 cold).
400g Canadian Very Strong white flour.

Chuck it all in bowl. Mix with a spatula, leave for 25 mins to ‘autolyse’ (soak up the water properly).
Add 10g salt.
Knead on low speed in mixer for about  10mins.
Cling film over mixing bowl and leave to bulk prove at normal room temp for about 3-4hrs or until the dough has about doubled in size.  Should look like meringue.

Turn out. Shape. Bench rest 15 min.

Fold and shape.
Place into proving basket. 3-4hrs for final rise.

Pre-set cloche or cast iron casserole in oven

Bake in cloche at 240°C for 42min. (Take lid off at 25-30 min).

So we scaled that down to our banaton/dutch oven and got this:- (https://i.ibb.co/ZYYDcLK/Bread1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LJJ79k6)

Stunning work.

Bet that crust is like fresh baguette in France  :P
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 18 May, 2020, 08:06:38 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/pxNgJYj/IMG-20200518-095518-440.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G0GXczQ)

Last night's effort
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 18 May, 2020, 08:48:05 pm
So we scaled that down to our banaton/dutch oven and got this:- (https://i.ibb.co/ZYYDcLK/Bread1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LJJ79k6)

Strong work on the baker’s signature. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 18 May, 2020, 09:22:08 pm
Quim!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 18 May, 2020, 09:44:55 pm
Does it smell yeasty?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 21 May, 2020, 04:30:25 pm
Tales from the baguette bakery, Part III

Rocking the T55. Using a 70% hydration dough, I tried making baking utensils from foil. Crunched up, rolled flat and smeared with oil then rolled into half pipes, I would call this a qualified success

Here's the part baked ones  (only one bellied out)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7H8rmkQKytY/XsadbCkfAxI/AAAAAAADTEQ/BzU-jrgRNnQrKOdIZwg-JZYlS31My5iQQCPcBGAsYHg/s1600/IMG_20200521_122203.jpg)

here's the fully baked one

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WHs8xlPbptY/XsadbEvy9VI/AAAAAAADTEQ/VxvL8EupPQk5p2qm_VkKefbWCdFSSEnHgCPcBGAsYHg/s1600/IMG_20200521_123033.jpg)

And an action shot

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vuPUigtF0mM/XsadbE-uWuI/AAAAAAADTEQ/090dk17hM28_5UPKQX_oamlSSjAq3jDGwCPcBGAsYHg/s1600/IMG_20200521_124425.jpg)

Cooked @ 220 on circotherm intensive, with a full width pan of water, crust is perfect. Consistency needs a little work still, but that's not too shabby at all.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 25 May, 2020, 07:10:56 pm
Latest attempt, using Flatus' recipe, although I had to substitute 70g wholemeal flour as I didn't quite have enough white.
Kneaded by hand, shaped, rested and shaped again. The "drawing towards you" bit of the shaping seems tpo be the key.

Fan oven 230C, dish of water in when I put the oven on, baked on a pizza stone.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/1rf7mgre2kyvthj/IMG_20200525_183217305.jpg?raw=1)

Good points: nice rising in the oven, didn't spread out all over the shop. Bad: cuts didn't open up.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: neilrj on 25 May, 2020, 07:57:33 pm
Bread V2 of the Flatus recipe, very happy with the results!
Pizza steel on order, using it for both bread and pizza (obv) - anyone got a reliable sourdough pizza base recipe.

https://i.ibb.co/VVyVVNM/Bread-2.jpg[/img]](https://i.ibb.co/VVyVVNM/Bread-2.jpg) (http://[img width=479 height=640)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 26 May, 2020, 03:22:25 pm
Lidl are selling a pizza peel for £10
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: andyoxon on 26 May, 2020, 04:21:53 pm
Anyone tried oat flour in a breadmaker (gluten free program?)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 26 May, 2020, 07:04:36 pm
Bread V2 of the Flatus recipe, very happy with the results!
Pizza steel on order, using it for both bread and pizza (obv) - anyone got a reliable sourdough pizza base recipe.

https://i.ibb.co/VVyVVNM/Bread-2.jpg[/img]](https://i.ibb.co/VVyVVNM/Bread-2.jpg) (http://[img width=479 height=640)

That looks like it's going to be delicious. Good spring, nice crust.

Fuck. Listen to me  ;D
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 27 May, 2020, 07:04:35 pm
Today I mixed dough with the old kenwood, think it needs an oil change in the gearbox as it is noisy ;)

Used 250g hovis white and 250g alinson wholemeal and seeds packet of yeast and a 9g pink himalayan salt.  Stuck it in the fridge for an overnight prove and tomorrow will take it out, knock it back and then decide to either let it have a second prove in the fridge or two proves in the hot flat.

Also did a 350g 00 pizza flour dough mix with a shot of olive oil, so tomorrow night is pizza night.  Will use the ceramic stone or the mason and cole terracotta pizza stone as the pizza steel is in a box somewhere.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: neilrj on 27 May, 2020, 07:16:40 pm
Bread V2 of the Flatus recipe, very happy with the results!
Pizza steel on order, using it for both bread and pizza (obv) - anyone got a reliable sourdough pizza base recipe.

https://i.ibb.co/VVyVVNM/Bread-2.jpg[/img]](https://i.ibb.co/VVyVVNM/Bread-2.jpg) (http://[img width=479 height=640)

That looks like it's going to be delicious. Good spring, nice crust.

Fuck. Listen to me  ;D

It was superb!
You should be proud as it's your recipe and method.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 29 May, 2020, 04:29:51 pm
So mixed some dough, it has spent about 36 or more hours in the fridge proving.  Now separated in two and out in the warm for a second prove, then one baked in a le crueset cast iron casserole dish and the other in a bakeware non glazed loaf dish.

This is the ceramic baker https://www.lakeland.co.uk/AllProductReviews.action?productId=16075&productName=Ceramic%25202lb%2520Loaf%2520Pan I just dropped the proved loaf in to the heated ceramic, lets see what happens.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 29 May, 2020, 08:28:07 pm
Today was a bad bread day.

Using Flatus' recipe, I thought things would be OK. The difference between this attempt (which was an abject failure) and the previous (which was a success) was that I used all white flour. The previous attempt had around 70g wholemeal.  I suspect this is why the dough was so sticky this time and as my kneading is by hand it I found it too stciky to knead properly. The proving went OK but the shaping was a combination of Loud Bad Swears, some throwing of objects and a sticky mess on my hands. I managed to persuade it into the proving basket but it was fairly structureless.

Things got better when it came to tipping out the proving basket onto the floured pizza stone. Firstly the dough clung to the basket, so what ended up on the stone was a bit torn. I slashed it with a razor blade and picked up the stone. I was a bit hasty and the dough then slid off the floured stone onto the the cooker. Fuck fuck fuck.

I rescued it and stuck it in the oven, covering it with an upturned casserole. Then I didn't hear the timer so it came out burnt.

Tastes nice enough though.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: rogerzilla on 29 May, 2020, 08:33:20 pm
SO was over the moon to find an unopened tin of Allinson yeast in my cupboard, part of the 2019 Brexit hoard.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 29 May, 2020, 08:36:05 pm
@Tim Hall Strong flours can hold more water, so if not strong reduce water a little bit.

Anyway, I invented something new today. I made a sort of tasty leavened flatbread today in an outside wood oven. Stuck some blended plum tomatoes on it and some of that Italian snot  cheese.

Tasted pretty good.  I reckon it'll catch on.

(https://i.ibb.co/ScCqgqd/IMG-20200529-192420-288.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bF9pVp2)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 29 May, 2020, 09:13:09 pm
Both breads failed to rise.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 29 May, 2020, 09:26:45 pm
Today was a bad bread day.

Using Flatus' recipe, I thought things would be OK. The difference between this attempt (which was an abject failure) and the previous (which was a success) was that I used all white flour. The previous attempt had around 70g wholemeal.  I suspect this is why the dough was so sticky this time and as my kneading is by hand it I found it too stciky to knead properly. The proving went OK but the shaping was a combination of Loud Bad Swears, some throwing of objects and a sticky mess on my hands. I managed to persuade it into the proving basket but it was fairly structureless.

Things got better when it came to tipping out the proving basket onto the floured pizza stone. Firstly the dough clung to the basket, so what ended up on the stone was a bit torn. I slashed it with a razor blade and picked up the stone. I was a bit hasty and the dough then slid off the floured stone onto the the cooker. Fuck fuck fuck.

I rescued it and stuck it in the oven, covering it with an upturned casserole. Then I didn't hear the timer so it came out burnt.

Tastes nice enough though.

We've all had a day like that. As Flatus say, but not just strength, I've found wholemeal flour takes a different amount of water than white, so when changing ratios of a familiar recipe it pays to be canny with the water.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 30 May, 2020, 09:56:57 am
Tasted pretty good.  I reckon it'll catch on.

You know what would enhance that, don’t you? A nice bit of pineapple.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 30 May, 2020, 12:46:58 pm
Tasted pretty good.  I reckon it'll catch on.

You know what would enhance that, don’t you? A nice bit of pineapple.

Wrong thread ;)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 30 May, 2020, 01:22:15 pm
Today was a bad bread day.

Please forgive me - if I laugh, it's from recognition.

Quote
I found it too sticky to knead properly. The proving went OK but the shaping was a combination of Loud Bad Swears, some throwing of objects and a sticky mess on my hands. I managed to persuade it into the proving basket but it was fairly structureless.

Have you tried oiling your hands?

I had some success yesterday with a "no knead" loaf. Just mix the ingredients roughly in the bowl, leave it to stand 10 minutes, stretch and fold, leave to stand another 10 minutes, stretch and fold again, then leave to ferment in the fridge overnight. Shape and final prove in the morning.

Higher water content allows gluten to form without kneading.

I would share a picture but the finished loaf didn't last long enough to take one.

Quote
Tastes nice enough though.

See, this is the thing you always need to remember - unless you end up with a real brick, fresh home-baked bread usually tastes pretty good even when it looks like shite. And ultimately, that's the goal - to produce a tasty loaf. Who really gives a fuck what it looks like on Instagram?

You also need to accept that unless you use a very strong flour, all-white dough with high water content just doesn't hold its shape so well. A lot can be achieved with good shaping technique (I'm a long way from perfect on this but getting better with practice), but it's always going to splat a little bit when turned out of the banneton.

You could also try playing around with proving times - eg reducing the first proving time (don't let it get fully doubled in size).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 30 May, 2020, 02:24:15 pm
All useful stuff, thanks.

Climbing up the learning curve, is protein content directly related to strength of the flour?

The Sainsbury white bread flour I used is 13.9% protein.

I got two bags of hastily repackaged Tesco bread flour yesterday with a measily 11.3% protein.  The Allinson plain white I have is 9.9%, so not that far behind.

The Marriages website (flour.co.uk) has Manitoba Strong White at a massive 14.9%. I've just ordered some...

Good tip about oiling hands - I had tried dipping rthem in water with limited success.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 30 May, 2020, 04:16:54 pm
Climbing up the learning curve, is protein content directly related to strength of the flour?

Tbh, I think 'strong' is just another way of saying 'high protein' (over 13%) in this context. At least, that's how I understand it. There may be a more technically nuanced definition.

Quote
The Marriages website (flour.co.uk) has Manitoba Strong White at a massive 14.9%. I've just ordered some...

That's the good shit. :thumbsup:

If I hadn't just got a new 16kg sack of flour from our local baker, I would follow your example.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 30 May, 2020, 06:39:22 pm
I made another sourdough today. Gods, it was a wet bugger. Ostensibly I was using the same recipe as usual, however, last night when I made the production leaven it was late and I'd had rather a lot to drink and I started using the wrong recipe which has a different ratio of wholemeal to white in it. I noticed my mistake and tried to bodge round it but I can only assume the ratio was still not correct cos I had I right trial folding the dough this morning until I eventually stuck a bit more wholemeal in it.
(For the record when folding I oil the worktop and my hands).

Anyway, what I wanted to ask the panel was - my sourdough is always a bit saggy when I turn it out of the banneton, so I was thinking about trying to reduce the hydration a little. Currently it's at 72% hydration (god, I hate bakers percentages) so how much does the panel reckon I should start tweaking it down by?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 30 May, 2020, 08:02:17 pm
so how much does the panel reckon I should start tweaking it down by?

Try 60%. Which may not be as huge a difference in the actual water content as it sounds - maybe a couple of tablespoons worth, depending on the size of your loaf.

I've had decent results at 55% - never as light and airy as the higher hydration levels but much, much easier to handle.

Who wants huge holes in their bread anyway? You need a bit of structure to hold the butter.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 30 May, 2020, 08:45:15 pm
Cripes, going from 72 to 60% would mean going from 432g to 360g water in a 1kg loaf
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: neilrj on 31 May, 2020, 12:34:15 am
2 loaves today. One is HF's sourdough (V3).

Left Hand is yeasted (years since we've used yeast) and the other is HF's sourdough recipe/method, sourdough is a bit 'caramalised' (burnt), adjusted temp. for yeasted baked a bit later. The yeasted had a massive bakers attic/mouse skyscraper - it is now croutons...

I think our new pizza steel kept the oven at a more stable (high) temp. so it is darker than V1/2 - it is a brilliant flavour though.
Pizza steel test is for another post.

(https://i.ibb.co/dPkSmJg/2Loaves.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dPkSmJg)

(https://i.ibb.co/LrvTThM/HF-V3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LrvTThM)



Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 31 May, 2020, 09:58:08 am
50% rye 50% wholemeal and the water replaced with Black Sheep bitter.

This is a brick of a loaf. Very dense but tasty. Only rose about half as much as a 50% rye 50% white flour loaf.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hellymedic on 31 May, 2020, 02:17:54 pm
Interesting.

I am no yeast/brewing/fermentation expert but have vague recollections that yeast becomes inactive above a certain alcohol content, which limits the eventual strength of a beverage.

I'm therefore not surprised this rose less.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 31 May, 2020, 02:52:01 pm
I had the idea after a comment I saw on twitter about beer being a great substitute for water with rye bread. Perhaps not all of the water though ....
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hellymedic on 31 May, 2020, 03:06:28 pm
I think brewers' yeast might be more alcohol tolerant than normal baking yeast. I'm still no yeast/fermentation expert, though might do some reading.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 31 May, 2020, 03:43:00 pm
Yeast would seem to live up to about 13% (otherwise how would wine happen).

I can't see that beer (ABV approx 5%) would kill it.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 31 May, 2020, 04:37:38 pm
50% rye 50% wholemeal and the water replaced with Black Sheep bitter.

This is a brick of a loaf. Very dense but tasty. Only rose about half as much as a 50% rye 50% white flour loaf.

Whole meal never seems to rise as readily as strong white.

The brown flour I use rises beautifully but the Miller has added ascorbic acid.

I would be inclined to agree wit Hatler. Yeast dies, or at least becomes dormant, at about 15% alcohol. In baking, it is the high temperature that kills it, not the alcohol content.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 02 June, 2020, 09:09:00 am
A much better bread day. Kept a close eye on the water and ended up using 225ml instead of 250ml, so not much of a reduction.  The dough was a bit sticky but a combination of lightly oiled hands and a bit of dusting meant kneading went much better.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/x63a16q60shbdup/IMG_20200601_212535918.jpg?raw=1)
Shaped dough about to go in the basket.

230C oven, baked on a pizza stone with an inverted stainless casorole doing cloche duties.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/1xfx2bl78lrcbkm/IMG_20200602_002911227.jpg?raw=1)

I think I could tweak the water content up a wee bit more - the structure is a bit on the dense side but nothing disastrous.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/psmranyj902ymp5/IMG_20200602_071920484.jpg?raw=1)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 02 June, 2020, 09:45:14 am
The Sainsbury white bread flour I used is 13.9% protein.

I got two bags of hastily repackaged Tesco bread flour yesterday with a measily 11.3% protein.  The Allinson plain white I have is 9.9%, so not that far behind.

I wonder if stuff that is packaged as 'bread flour' is a bit like the stuff you used to get called 'whipping cream' - for whipping, you want a high fat content, so double cream (defined as 48% butterfat) is best. You might imagine something called 'whipping cream' would be specially designed for the job and therefore have an even higher fat content, but in fact it was a cheaper alternative to double cream that had just enough fat content to make it whippable - and also be more tolerant to overwhipping without turning to butter. I don't think I've seen 'whipping cream' on sale for some years though.

Likewise, I suspect 'bread flour' is just strong enough to make bread (probably optimised for machines) while also being low enough in protein to result in a nice soft crumb, as opposed to 'strong flour' which has to pass a defined threshold for protein content. Higher protein will also result in chewier bread, which may or may not be a desirable quality.

The flour I got from our local baker friends is just 12.3% - that is just labelled as 'flour' (ie not 'strong' or 'bread'). This is a loaf I made on Sunday, using just this flour, at about 66% hydration:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49961442452_725ea49768.jpg)
- not as much 'spring' as I'd like, but I put that down to not using a cloche/dutch oven, and I suspect I didn't give it quite long enough at the final proving stage either. But the key thing to note is that it held its shape pretty well, no collapsing when turned out of the banneton. The point being that it is possible to achieve a decent loaf with all white flour and high(ish) hydration, even with relatively low protein flour. It's all in the shaping, as I believe Flatus has previously noted.

Also worth noting that stoneground flour will take more water than the bog-standard, highly refined roller-milled stuff - this is because it has higher bran content (and bran absorbs water more readily than germ, which is why wholemeal loaves need much higher water content).

A much better bread day.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 02 June, 2020, 09:59:48 am

Likewise, I suspect 'bread flour' is just strong enough to make bread (probably optimised for machines) while also being low enough in protein to result in a nice soft crumb, as opposed to 'strong flour' which has to pass a defined threshold for protein content. Higher protein will also result in chewier bread, which may or may not be a desirable quality.


Well, duh, yes. With the exception that it is NOT optimised for bread machines, which appear to prefer strong flour, likely because they struggle to knead properly. Those of us who have been home baking for (ever) have noticed that average bread flours have become stronger. Where 12-13% used to be the norm, these days 13-15% appears more usually. When hand kneading, this means you can get away with far less than you once would.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 02 June, 2020, 10:31:55 am
With the exception that it is NOT optimised for bread machines, which appear to prefer strong flour, likely because they struggle to knead properly.

Ah!

Maybe that's why I was never really happy with the results from our bread machine...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hellymedic on 02 June, 2020, 08:42:05 pm

I wonder if stuff that is packaged as 'bread flour' is a bit like the stuff you used to get called 'whipping cream' - for whipping, you want a high fat content, so double cream (defined as 48% butterfat) is best. You might imagine something called 'whipping cream' would be specially designed for the job and therefore have an even higher fat content, but in fact it was a cheaper alternative to double cream that had just enough fat content to make it whippable - and also be more tolerant to overwhipping without turning to butter. I don't think I've seen 'whipping cream' on sale for some years though.


[OTish]

Sainsbury's do seem to be selling whipping cream (green pot ~40% fat, as well as single cream-red pot, 18% fat and double cream blue pot 48% fat).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 03 June, 2020, 07:25:32 am
With the exception that it is NOT optimised for bread machines, which appear to prefer strong flour, likely because they struggle to knead properly.

Ah!

Maybe that's why I was never really happy with the results from our bread machine...

I've switched to Hercules strong white flour milled locally in Driffield. Big difference in the bread machine. My MiL who we have bought some for too (we are doing her shopping in lockdown) says its much better than the supermarket stuff for her manual bread making as well.
For any of you local to North Yorkshire apparently its the flour Thomas' uses in their bakeries.
I'm not sure if you can actually buy it pre-packaged in small bags though, we get it from a scoop shop where they have it delivered in sacks.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 03 June, 2020, 08:40:46 am
Sainsbury's do seem to be selling whipping cream (green pot ~40% fat, as well as single cream-red pot, 18% fat and double cream blue pot 48% fat).

Tbh, I don’t buy cream that often so probably just haven’t noticed it on the shelves (among the million other varieties that are available these days).

Apparently the ‘extra thick’ stuff is just double cream that has been rapidly heated and cooled.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 03 June, 2020, 11:22:27 am
16 kg Canadian flour delivered to work.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/l8zidlctixkbl4e/IMG_20200603_111229876.jpg?raw=1)

I'll find out this evening how hard it is to pedal it home.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hellymedic on 03 June, 2020, 03:18:31 pm
Sainsbury's do seem to be selling whipping cream (green pot ~40% fat, as well as single cream-red pot, 18% fat and double cream blue pot 48% fat).

Tbh, I don’t buy cream that often so probably just haven’t noticed it on the shelves (among the million other varieties that are available these days).

Apparently the ‘extra thick’ stuff is just double cream that has been rapidly heated and cooled.

The 'Extra Thick' stuff has the same fat percentage as the standard double cream, I see...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 03 June, 2020, 03:38:44 pm
(https://i.ibb.co/vwwN5wz/20200602-190408-01.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QbbWBbm)

Last night's effort. Been experimenting with using starters at different time intervals after feeding. Used one that hadn't been fed for about 28 hours and was pretty acidic. Tasted nice.

Got one rising in todays cooler weather. Going to prove in in the fridge overnight, see how that affects flavour.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 06 June, 2020, 06:29:26 pm
Last time I made sourdough it was when it was warm and my starter was all frisky. This week it's been all cold again so in an effort to frisk my starter I put it on the top of my yoghurt maker. I forgot to turn it off overnight and thought I'd killed it.

I really want one of these now. I know it's too expensive but it would allow me to incubate starter, prove dough and make yoghurt in the same piece of equipment.
https://brodandtaylor.uk/product/brod-taylor-folding-proofer-slow-cooker-fp-205/

Why doesn't anyone make a slowcooker that you can accurately control the temperature of? And that will go low enough for starter? (yes ok, that is essentialy what Brød & Taylor have done here but...)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 07 June, 2020, 10:44:52 am
Baguettes R us, Pt IV

Par-baked

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KhRoiqI28ug/Xty18l-ZzCI/AAAAAAADVUE/k2ZZCnj-UncS_21E9O7p61fHHABOON7rACPcBGAsYHg/s1600/IMG_20200607_094839.jpg)

T55, 70% moisture, three foldy-style gentle knock backs, pukka baguette tin.

Think I may have got it pretty much nailed, User Acceptance Testing coming soon.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: T42 on 07 June, 2020, 11:14:19 am
 :thumbsup:

Our oven isn't deep enough to make full baguettes, so what MrsT turns out are more like bâtards.  "Ma femme fait des bâtards" isn't something I say out loud, though.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 07 June, 2020, 11:56:21 am
"Ma femme fait des bâtards" isn't something I say out loud, though.

I first came across that gag in the Jacques Dutronc song Il est cinq heures, Paris s'éveille - "Les boulangers font des bâtards"
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 07 June, 2020, 12:21:55 pm
Baguettes R us, Pt IV

Par-baked

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KhRoiqI28ug/Xty18l-ZzCI/AAAAAAADVUE/k2ZZCnj-UncS_21E9O7p61fHHABOON7rACPcBGAsYHg/s1600/IMG_20200607_094839.jpg)

T55, 70% moisture, three foldy-style gentle knock backs, pukka baguette tin.

Think I may have got it pretty much nailed, User Acceptance Testing coming soon.

How did you proof them? I got a couple of bags of T55 with my last Shipton Mill order, so am tempted to give them a go. I don't have a baguette tin, mind, so am pondering if I can do demi-baguettes under a cloche.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: T42 on 07 June, 2020, 04:36:21 pm
"Ma femme fait des bâtards" isn't something I say out loud, though.

I first came across that gag in the Jacques Dutronc song Il est cinq heures, Paris s'éveille - "Les boulangers font des bâtards"

That's what I was thinking of. Great song.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 07 June, 2020, 07:49:28 pm
"Ma femme fait des bâtards" isn't something I say out loud, though.

I first came across that gag in the Jacques Dutronc song Il est cinq heures, Paris s'éveille - "Les boulangers font des bâtards"

That's what I was thinking of. Great song.

I'll just file that away.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 07 June, 2020, 09:13:21 pm
First loaf with my Manitoba "as strong as a lumberjack" flour.

Used the Flatus recipe and kneaded by hand started sticky but got better as the gluten developed. Got adventurous and shaped it to fit my long proving basket. Shaping still needs practice and the dough stuck a bit as I tipped it onto the baking sheet, causing a bit of a collapse. However, oven spring to the rescue:

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/hpejwny2lrv8gia/IMG_20200606_230957127.jpg?raw=1)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 07 June, 2020, 09:53:06 pm


How did you proof them? I got a couple of bags of T55 with my last Shipton Mill order, so am tempted to give them a go. I don't have a baguette tin, mind, so am pondering if I can do demi-baguettes under a cloche.

Do you mean in the tin? Just with a tea towel over them. By the time you get to that point, the dough has moved away from being a 70% moisture sloppy bastard.  The consistency is developed before you put it into the tin for the last proving. Multiple gentle knock-backs after 20 min seems to be the way to go. I don't use my oven for raising, and allow it to dry out slightly .


Here's the fully baked and the texture I've ended up with. Room for improvement, still, but I'm happy with it so far (and the crust is PROPER)

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-luKciESLleQ/Xt1TZcJI0dI/AAAAAAADVWc/grCfoDQ1qS4p3c3of91LIJ_Xz5-ChCV0wCPcBGAsYHg/s1600/IMG_20200607_121412.jpg)


(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-eXHVKFKiV4M/Xt1TZfhS9WI/AAAAAAADVWc/kqDXzkGwCdsbgg-ppMOeIATpK_NGxXWRwCPcBGAsYHg/s1600/IMG_20200607_121835.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 08 June, 2020, 09:09:45 am
so how much does the panel reckon I should start tweaking it down by?

Try 60%. Which may not be as huge a difference in the actual water content as it sounds - maybe a couple of tablespoons worth, depending on the size of your loaf.

I've had decent results at 55% - never as light and airy as the higher hydration levels but much, much easier to handle.

Who wants huge holes in their bread anyway? You need a bit of structure to hold the butter.


Right. 67pc (there is no symbol on this phone, WTF?) hydration experiment has begun....
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 08 June, 2020, 10:05:25 am
Another tip for increasing hydration whilst keeping the dough workable is to use 'bassinage': keep back some of the water (mix the initial dough at 60-65% hydration), and sprinkle it in when you do later stretch-and-folds as the gluten develops.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 08 June, 2020, 05:21:13 pm
I've just attempted to shape a batard. Not tremendously successfully but we'll see what it turns out like.
Usually the 72% dough I just give a last stretch & fold before pouring it into the banneton.

I really noticed the difference in stretching distance with this lower hydration.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 08 June, 2020, 06:26:05 pm
It kept more of it's height than usual when I turned it out of the banneton. Up until I slashed the top.   :-\
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 09 June, 2020, 08:04:19 am
Slight failure this morning. I have been making 50% rye 50% strong white loaves successfully in the Panasonic for a while. Today I tried swapping out the light rye flour for dark rye using teh same program and the top was collapsed and some flour in one corner wasn't incorporated, just on the outside the inside was fine. The loaf texture is fine.
does dark rye need more water or fat or perhaps less ?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 09 June, 2020, 09:05:23 am
Less, I think
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Little Jim on 09 June, 2020, 09:46:02 am
I am looking for some suggestions for bread making on the BBQ on the off-chance that the weather could be good enough to get the BBQ out this weekend.

Mrs LJ is the household baker, I'm generally not allowed any where near the oven.  She makes most of our bread and from time to time does a batch of basic white dough which then gets divided up into "individual" portions and frozen,  These then get resurrected from time to time for such things as "nan" bread to be cooked in the frying pan (yeah, I know, but it is still infinitely better than the crap Sainsbury's frozen ones), pizza bases and garlic bread.  I've recently been trying to do some on the BBQ with fairly underwhelming results. I have been flattening the dough out to a sort of small pizza base size, letting it prove for a bit and then cooking on the grill - it is a Webber charcoal BBQ so does do a sort of oven effect. The first batch was more akin to a Jakob's Cream Cracker, not burnt but a bit (lot) over cooked.  Second was starting to get a bit black on the outside but only just cooked in the middle but much better.  For my next attempt I am wondering about keeping the coals over to one side of the cooking area and using indirect heat to cook the bread but I would appreciate some help and ideas please.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 09 June, 2020, 11:12:37 am
I think you probably need something like a pizza stone/steel to preheat and act as a heat sink - a cast-iron frying pan would do. Not sure how well the toppings would cook, but worth a go I'd say.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Little Jim on 09 June, 2020, 12:39:49 pm
Thanks Jakob, although re-reading what I wrote I didn't make it very clear.  I am not trying to do pizza on the BBQ; what I'm after is some sort of bread to eat with the cooked BBQ meat and veg, so any sort of "flat bread" I guess.  Either individual "pitta bread" sized bread or a larger one that can be cut up.  I guess it is my technique , such as it is, that is the problem.  I am wondering if it would work better with indirect heat rather than straight over the coals.  The lid thermometer does register about 160 deg F generally, although I can get it hotter by altering the air flow a bit.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 09 June, 2020, 01:00:05 pm
The lid thermometer does register about 160 deg F generally, although I can get it hotter by altering the air flow a bit.

Are you sure? That's only about 70 deg C. A Weber Kettle BBQ should be able to get up to over 550 deg F (nearly 300 deg C) if you let it rip. Mine will bury the needle against the stop at the hot end with decent charcoal and all the vents open fully.

Never tried making any kind of bread on it though so cant help there I'm afraid.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 09 June, 2020, 01:01:55 pm
I'd use a piece of oiled foil to balance heat & burn to go for pita style (heat from one side) as opposed to tandoor naan (effing hot all about)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 09 June, 2020, 01:03:04 pm
You could try this flatbread recipe.

https://www.weber.com/AU/en/recipes/pizza-and-bread/homemade-barbecued-flatbreads/weber-1902536.html

Other things I have tried from Weber's website tend to work OK.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 09 June, 2020, 01:16:06 pm
Ah, gotcha. If you've got a cast-iron pan/griddle I'd try it on there as per that Weber recipe above, but Ham's suggestion of oiled foil and indirect heat should work as well.

In general, flatbread should be reasonably forgiving - in a Neopolitan oven, pizza cooks in 60-90 seconds at ~450°C, but there you've got radiant heat all the way round (I guess a tandoor must be very similar when cooking naan). The biggest problem is going to be if it's pure radiant heat from the coals on one side and not much on the other; even there I'd have thought you should be able to manage ok as long as the breads are reasonably thin and you flip them in time.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Little Jim on 09 June, 2020, 03:23:31 pm
The lid thermometer does register about 160 deg F generally, although I can get it hotter by altering the air flow a bit.

Are you sure? That's only about 70 deg C. A Weber Kettle BBQ should be able to get up to over 550 deg F (nearly 300 deg C) if you let it rip. Mine will bury the needle against the stop at the hot end with decent charcoal and all the vents open fully.

Never tried making any kind of bread on it though so cant help there I'm afraid.

 :facepalm: I'm an idiot!  You are quite right, I didn't look at the gauge properly, it is generally at about 230 deg C (just past 12 o'clock), and yes, open everything up and it all starts glowing red.

Thank you for the suggestion from the Weber website - I had forgotten that they do quite a few recipes and some of the bread ones look to be suitable.  I will try a piece of foil next as Jakob and Ham have suggested or I might even borrow one of Mrs LJ's small baking trays and use that

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 09 June, 2020, 03:46:40 pm
Ideally you want something with a bit of thermal mass, hence the suggestion of a cast iron pan.

Careful if you use a pizza stone - ours cracked when I put it on the barbecue.

I was quite impressed that our Ikea barbecue got up to 450° - until I realised I was reading the Fahrenheit side of the scale...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 09 June, 2020, 03:51:59 pm
And I wouldn't use any kind of non-stick on a barbecue - plain steel/aluminium would be best.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 09 June, 2020, 04:40:45 pm
This was yesterday's results of the hydration reduction experiment
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49987761598_7f373d2002.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jafkYA)2020-06-09_04-07-09 (https://flic.kr/p/2jafkYA) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49988524147_dfbca5db89.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jajfDZ)2020-06-09_04-07-24 (https://flic.kr/p/2jajfDZ) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 12 June, 2020, 04:21:57 pm
Taste nice?


This.....

(https://i.ibb.co/4Nfkz1T/20200612-134211.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0JX5TsM)
host image online (https://imgbb.com/)

....was a cock-up from start to finish. Starter was 100% rye, which doesnt take water so well, and because I'd forgotten the starter was rye the dough was super wet. Then I'd left it too late and it hadn't risen, so I just left it in the mixing bowl overnight at room temp.

Shaping was a nightmare because of the long prove and the wet dough, hence flour lump you can see in loaf.  Proved it in basket and it stuck to basket and ripped skin when it inverted it onto peel.  I literally poured it into the casserole, and the only reason I baked it was that the oven had preheated, and I thought cleaning the wet dough out would be harder than if I went ahead and baked it and at least ended up drying it out. Bin job because it was a disaster, but an easier clean up.

Anyway.....I think you've probably guessed that it turned out to be the most delicious bread I have ever eaten in my life.

Currently trying to reproduce all of yesterday's mistakes because the loaf got eaten within an hour.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 13 June, 2020, 06:49:37 pm
For today's experiment I'm sticking with the lower hydration but rather than whipping out the silicon sheet after 15 mins I'm going to leave it there for the whole baking time. My reasoning being that it would dry the bread out a bit when it was made on a stone, but now I'm using a steel it shouldn't make any difference.
It will also make less mess (I usually end up with rye flour flying everywhere when I wheech the sheet out) and keep the oven temperature more stable.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 14 June, 2020, 01:51:29 pm
I did indeed make less mess. The bottom of the loaf seems a bit harder to cut through than the rest, maybe a bit chewier, but not inedible.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50004367168_cb31c0389a.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jbHsew)2020-06-14_01-32-20 (https://flic.kr/p/2jbHsew) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 15 June, 2020, 05:17:20 pm
On Friday, we had some burgers that needed eating up, so I quickly rustled up some buns to put them in...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50008960913_a5d2c3dd6a_b.jpg)

Really good. Got the recipe from BBC Good Food. Highly recommended. Soft and light, yet sturdy enough to not disintegrate when soaked in burger juices. The dough is enriched but not the full-on brioche nonsense, which I've yet to be convinced is a good match for a burger.
https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/soft-burger-buns

Topped the burgers with a bit of cheese and token greenery, and knocked up some chips to go on the side.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50009486656_5b327eecb7_b.jpg)

It was probably quicker to make from scratch than it would have been to queue at McDonald's.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: nicknack on 15 June, 2020, 05:43:09 pm
Agreed. Brioches are totally crap for burgers. I completely fail to understand why they've caught on. I can only guess that they're cheaper.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 15 June, 2020, 05:46:07 pm
Agreed. Brioches are totally crap for burgers. I completely fail to understand why they've caught on. I can only guess that they're cheaper.

Because USA.

They like to pour melted butter on the cut side as well.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 15 June, 2020, 05:58:14 pm
Mmm. Hungry now. Already had a burger this week tho.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 15 June, 2020, 06:12:46 pm
Agreed. Brioches are totally crap for burgers. I completely fail to understand why they've caught on. I can only guess that they're cheaper.

I suspect it's just because they're a bit fancy, and people like bling. Can't imagine they're cheaper with all the butter and eggs.

A quick bit of googling turned up this, which I think is on the money:
https://www.thedailymeal.com/eat/putting-your-burger-brioche-bun-terrible-idea
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 15 June, 2020, 06:46:22 pm
No way were those hipster sour dough, careful you are on a slippery slope (but you probably don't need two hands to drink water)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 15 June, 2020, 08:08:41 pm
No way were those hipster sour dough, careful you are on a slippery slope (but you probably don't need two hands to drink water)
Well spotted. I did contemplate the sourdough option but it was a last minute decision to make them and I just wanted them done quick. Might try a sourdough version some other time.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: ian on 15 June, 2020, 08:24:09 pm
Really, not even served on a slate with a small metal plant pot for the chips.

Some US places take the brioche concept further, you can burgers in croissants and, for bonus points, inserted into sliced donuts. It's a deviant practice. If they swore and fornicated more, it truly wouldn't be necessary.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 15 June, 2020, 08:54:13 pm
Really, not even served on a slate with a small metal plant pot for the chips.

Why do you think I’m posting the pics here rather than on Instagram? I don’t want the hipster police after me.

Quote
Some US places take the brioche concept further, you can burgers in croissants and, for bonus points, inserted into sliced donuts. It's a deviant practice. If they swore and fornicated more, it truly wouldn't be necessary.

I’ve seen the doughnut thing and you’re right - you’d have to be seriously repressed to come up with that as a means of catharsis. No wonder they’re all in therapy.

Mind you, today I worked on a feature that included a vegan recipe for sweet potato cooked in Coca Cola and the author was British.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: ian on 15 June, 2020, 09:40:44 pm
If you go to Atlanta they cook everything in Coca Cola (as a homage to the local brew, I suppose). By the standards of southern marinades, it's relatively healthy.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 16 June, 2020, 06:11:17 pm
Yeah saw they wanky chips
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Davef on 16 June, 2020, 07:47:19 pm
Agreed. Brioches are totally crap for burgers. I completely fail to understand why they've caught on. I can only guess that they're cheaper.

I suspect it's just because they're a bit fancy, and people like bling. Can't imagine they're cheaper with all the butter and eggs.

A quick bit of googling turned up this, which I think is on the money:
https://www.thedailymeal.com/eat/putting-your-burger-brioche-bun-terrible-idea
Reading thru the linked article it says “no Frenchman would use brioche for a sandwich”, but most pre packaged filled baguettes in France are made using baguette viennoise as normal French bread goes stale too quickly.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 17 June, 2020, 10:15:45 am
Reading thru the linked article it says “no Frenchman would use brioche for a sandwich”, but most pre packaged filled baguettes in France are made using baguette viennoise as normal French bread goes stale too quickly.

Baguette viennoise is not the same thing as brioche.

There are a few details I would quibble with in the piece. I wouldn't claim to know whether or not it's true that "no Frenchman would use brioche for a sandwich". That seems a bit too definitive a statement. But it's generally sound on the reasons for not using brioche buns for burgers.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 17 June, 2020, 10:52:18 am
Can anyone point me to a reliable recipe for bread made from spelt flour with no yeast? I do have some normal plain flour that could be included but not enough for a loaf.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 17 June, 2020, 11:24:20 am
f
l
o
u
r

Or, Foxtrot Lima Oscar Uniform Romeo

Does that go some way to helping?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 17 June, 2020, 12:45:01 pm
f
l
o
u
r

Or, Foxtrot Lima Oscar Uniform Romeo

Does that go some way to helping?

Not in the slightest. Did you think it would? Spelt is not the same as bread flour, and the lack of yeast introduces other differences.

Hence my request in case someone else has a recipe they have used and is known to work, and I’ll also google it. Thanks a lot though.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 17 June, 2020, 01:04:10 pm
When you say without yeast, do you mean a quickbread or a sourdough? And is it wholemeal or white spelt? Spelt tends to make for a more active sourdough culture, so you may have to adjust amounts or proofing times, but (as for any other wholemeal) a pure wholemeal spelt loaf is likely to be quite dense.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 17 June, 2020, 01:14:38 pm
f
l
o
u
r

Or, Foxtrot Lima Oscar Uniform Romeo

Does that go some way to helping?

Not in the slightest. Did you think it would?

It would have been of inestimable assistance had you been wondering how flour was spelt.

As far as it goes, I cant see it being much different in whatever non-yeast recipe than normal (hard wheat) flour, except it probably won't hold shape as well. (although final texture will be different)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 17 June, 2020, 01:16:39 pm
An experiment this afternoon. Just put some 50% rye 50% white in the bread maker but using cheap Lidl strong white flour. Lets see how it comes out.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 17 June, 2020, 01:20:11 pm
Spelt is not the same as bread flour

No, but from what I've read, you can generally use it as a substitute for wheat flour.

The Fresh Loaf forum would be a good place to ask this kind of question. People there seem to get on fine using it instead of wheat flour, and it seems to work well when I've used it as an adjunct in my loaves (never more than 20% of total flour content though).

This is what it says in their baker's handbook:
"Spelt flour: Spelt, which is also known as farro, is an ancient grain that is a cousin to wheat. It contains enough gluten to make a light loaf of bread, but absorbs less water than wheat, and so requires a lower hydration. The gluten is also somewhat less resiliant than that of wheat, and, as such, one needs to be careful when using a mixer, as it's easy to over-develop."
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/handbook/other-flours

Here's a recipe for spelt soda bread - though I've not tried it so not a personal recommendation:
https://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/recipes/wholemeal-spelt-soda-bread
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 17 June, 2020, 03:50:41 pm
Thanks. I saw that Dove’s Farm recipe but elected to go for this Jamie Oliver version purely on the basis of the photos of the finished item (and I happen to have some buttermilk). JO’s looks more like an Irish soda bread to me, and indeed that is what has emerged from the oven. Haven’t tried it yet.

https://www.jamieoliver.com/recipes/bread-recipes/simple-soda-bread/

Edited to add - ended up like this and tastes pretty good I must say.

(https://dl.dropbox.com/s/pch6temu7f47owm/2020-06-17%2015.55.05.jpg?dl=0)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 17 June, 2020, 03:52:39 pm
It would have been of inestimable assistance had you been wondering how flour was spelt.


Apols for sense of humour failure.

As a flour it seems to take up liquid differently. The difference in using spelt vs normal flour might be more pronounced in a yeasted loaf, but for this soda bread it seemed no different to plain flour. A wetter stickier dough, perhaps.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 17 June, 2020, 03:58:42 pm
If you look back to Sep 2015 (page8?) of this thread, I was experimenting with Spelt, Rye & buttermilk
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 17 June, 2020, 04:10:41 pm
I happen to have some buttermilk

#winning

Quote
Edited to add - ended up like this and tastes pretty good I must say.

Mmmm, does look good.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 17 June, 2020, 10:28:15 pm
One thing I found was that even though I made my cross cuts very deep - almost through the loaf - it just welded itself back together again as it is quite a wet dough. Still seems to have baked through very evenly.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 21 June, 2020, 10:26:14 am
I've just seen that Waitrose is stocking Marriage's flour in 16kg bags, cheaper than Marriages are selling it themselves. Only 3 types, plain, SR and "Premier white bread flour" (I can't see that one on the Marriage's website) at £10, £10 and £12.

I don't need any yet but...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 23 June, 2020, 11:25:35 am
I've just seen that Waitrose is stocking Marriage's flour in 16kg bags, cheaper than Marriages are selling it themselves. Only 3 types, plain, SR and "Premier white bread flour" (I can't see that one on the Marriage's website) at £10, £10 and £12.

I don't need any yet but...

And, as if by magic, they are not!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 23 June, 2020, 06:49:33 pm
<sob!>
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50037271073_cf53b3e6d7.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jeC6qe)2020-06-23_06-36-23 (https://flic.kr/p/2jeC6qe) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

Less of a sourdough loaf. More of a flying saucer, FFS.  :facepalm:

No idea why. It was a new brand of flour but surely wholemeal stoneground is wholemeal stoneground (old was Sainsbo's and somewhat old, new is Gilchesters). Other possible option is that in between folds I left it on the worktop rather than in the bowl (with the bowl placed on top) and when I came back it had flowed all over the top, maybe it overstretched the gluten. Although when I gave it the final prove it sprung back alright when prodded.
 :-\
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 23 June, 2020, 08:57:01 pm

That looks like it's going to be delicious. Good spring, nice crust.

Fuck. Listen to me  ;D
I dropped in to a friend's garden at the weekend. We chatted, as you do, about sourdough. The last bit of Flatus' remark may have been uttered...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 28 June, 2020, 07:37:59 pm
<sob!>
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50037271073_cf53b3e6d7.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jeC6qe)2020-06-23_06-36-23 (https://flic.kr/p/2jeC6qe) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

Less of a sourdough loaf. More of a flying saucer, FFS.  :facepalm:

No idea why. It was a new brand of flour but surely wholemeal stoneground is wholemeal stoneground (old was Sainsbo's and somewhat old, new is Gilchesters). Other possible option is that in between folds I left it on the worktop rather than in the bowl (with the bowl placed on top) and when I came back it had flowed all over the top, maybe it overstretched the gluten. Although when I gave it the final prove it sprung back alright when prodded.
 :-\


The saga continues. I started today's ferment with even less water, looked okay initially but it really wasn't after a while. I ended up having an attack of the screaming abjabs at it and Pingu came through to make sure I was alright  :-[
I ended up kneading more wholemeal flour in (it was that or throw it in the bin in a strop). The end result was less pancakey than last week but not as good as the previous effort with different flour.

So I did some research on the flour and it suggests that the wholemeal should adsorb lots of water, which makes me wonder if it's the strong white that is poor. So as an experiment I made a bog std yeast raised loaf with 100% wholemeal as per their recipe. It did indeed absorb lots of water (70% as per the recipe) without being wet or hard to handle, the dough rose nicely and although it's a bit dense looking that's not really a surprise for wholemeal.
So my attention on now turns to the strong white. According to the label it's 12.7% which isn't super strong but should be good enough, no?

I'd go back to my usual flour if I could get hold of the stuff  :facepalm:
Title: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 29 June, 2020, 07:56:35 am
So my attention on now turns to the strong white. According to the label it's 12.7% which isn't super strong but should be good enough, no?

As noted earlier, the sack I got from my local baker is 12.3%. It generally gives satisfactory results, though never as much lift as I’d like. (NB it doesn’t say ‘strong’ anywhere on the sack.)

Will try to get some of the Marriages Manitoba next time I need to stock up.

Tesco had plentiful supplies of spelt flour, both white and wholemeal, when I was in there the other day. But still no rye.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: andrewc on 29 June, 2020, 06:46:54 pm

2nd attempt.  Basic Delia recipe with flour & yeast from my original Brexshit stash that’s a year past its “use by” date.


Nice crusty crust & dense chewy centre.   Not as good as my local specialist place,  but better than the supermarket.    I'm thinking of a handful of chopped olives in the next batch , or some cubed Boursin... :P


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbsNWUaWkAE0B1r?format=jpg&name=large)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 29 June, 2020, 09:07:00 pm
Apparently there isn't a flour shortage what there is a flour packaging bottleneck somewhere.
So if you have a scoop shop nearby than they have no problem buying sacks of flour and tend to be fully stocked, its just the normal size bags of flour that keep running out.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: andrewc on 01 July, 2020, 12:49:40 pm
How are people storing their bread ?  My last effort is wrapped in cling film, but I’ve read that’s not ideal.  I’d rather not sacrifice counter space to a bread bin.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 01 July, 2020, 01:28:04 pm
I have a bread bin, but if you don't want to sacrifice counter space, you could get all French about it and have a linen bread bag hanging up somewhere.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: fuaran on 01 July, 2020, 02:46:38 pm
Wrap it in a tea towel.
Or could sew a bag from tea towels if you want.
Or get a cotton shopping bag, and sew a drawstring on the top.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: andrewc on 01 July, 2020, 02:52:51 pm
Hmmmmm.......   old pillow case might do the trick....?   
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 01 July, 2020, 03:05:02 pm
Sliced in the freezer

(also, part baked in the freezer)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 01 July, 2020, 05:21:57 pm
Sliced in the freezer

That too.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Kim on 01 July, 2020, 05:24:31 pm
Stomach.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 01 July, 2020, 06:25:47 pm
Stomach.
Is the right answer.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 01 July, 2020, 10:33:37 pm
Apparently there isn't a flour shortage what there is a flour packaging bottleneck somewhere.
So if you have a scoop shop nearby than they have no problem buying sacks of flour and tend to be fully stocked, its just the normal size bags of flour that keep running out.

My understanding is that 95% of the flour sold in this country is in bulk or commercial bakers. Only 5% finds its way into 1.5kg bags (or smaller) for supermarkets. There simply isn't the capacity to put enough flour in small bags for the current demand.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 02 July, 2020, 07:39:45 pm
I tried leaving my bread out to rise overnight last night. It rose much more than overnight in the fridge plus a couple of hours out in the morning, but was too sticky. Still tastes good, and a looser texture.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 05 July, 2020, 09:04:09 pm
I has "crunchy" flour from Thomas's (a higher class lard version of Greggs localised to North and East Yorkshire). I will give it a whirl tomorrow.
I think they get their flour from Bradshaw's of Driffield which is promising as Brashaws's Hercules strong white is very good.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 09 July, 2020, 08:35:26 am
Update on the below. I finally got round to baking this. From the packet its a mix of strong white and granary with with added malted bits.
Used the standard no 4 program in the Panasonic and its turned out great. I think this will make a good loaf for sandwiches.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: aidan.f on 13 July, 2020, 10:41:37 pm
Mrs H. has  had  some very successful sourdough experimentation and I am feeling very well fed. She's away for a week so now it is my turn to try. Took a spoonful of starter from the fridge and it is now fermenting visibly after only 12 hours. Out textbook instructions (Modern Sourdough: Eshkeri ) are to at 24 hours refresh it yet again - 10g from this pot into a new starter for another 12 hours. It's then implied, but not clear that you repeat this 12 hour cycle once again. Why the process of successive dilution of an active culture into fresh flour and re-fermentation? seems a bit of a waste. Or is this some sort of Homeopathy?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 13 July, 2020, 10:45:10 pm
The more bugs you have growing, the quicker they're going to use the food up. Exponential growth and all that.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: aidan.f on 13 July, 2020, 11:23:56 pm
Yes... but each serving does not get any bigger!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 14 July, 2020, 12:58:21 am
I think the argument for multiple feedings before use is that a starter that's been merrily multiplying away is more active; if the bread recipe calls for smaller amounts of starter and shorter bulk ferments, then you want the yeasts to be in peak condition. I've never really found it necessary; I'll refresh the starter once when I take it out of the fridge, but as I use an overnight sponge and slow proofing for my standard sourdough loaf, I figure this is all it needs.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 14 July, 2020, 08:18:38 am
Why the process of successive dilution of an active culture into fresh flour and re-fermentation? seems a bit of a waste. Or is this some sort of Homeopathy?

It's not dilution, it's feeding. And once fed, the microbes will start to multiply. If you feed it then put it somewhere warm, 3-4 hours later it might contain triple the number of microbes.

I only keep a small amount in reserve between bakes (about 50g) so a couple of feed cycles will build it up to the quantity I need for my recipe, with some left over to go back in the fridge when I'm finished.

I try to use the starter when it is at the peak of its activity because I find it gives more predictable results. All this means is that after feeding, I will wait until it has roughly doubled in volume before using it. And try to use it before it starts sinking again, because that means it is past its peak. I'm far from scientific about it though - and the timing of each stage often depends on how busy I am.
Title: The Bread Thread
Post by: Davef on 14 July, 2020, 08:36:50 am
I believe it is to do with the yeast/bacteria ratio. You are diluting the slower growing bacteria whilst breeding fast growing yeast.

Edit: and also diluting the acidic byproducts of earlier activity.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: aidan.f on 14 July, 2020, 11:40:04 pm
thanks everyone  - interesting.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 19 July, 2020, 06:58:16 pm
Stepping away from sourdough for a moment, I had a go at a peshwari naan recipe that was in The Guardian the other day.

(https://www.dropbox.com/s/4x9jlzlh00r3m8n/IMG_20200718_202659220.jpg?raw=1)

Unlike the previous naan recipe I've used, this was oven baked, not fried.  Taste was good, but it rose more than I expected.  I think I'll try it again and pay more attention to the shaping/flattening of the dough.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 19 July, 2020, 07:51:43 pm
I believe it is to do with the yeast/bacteria ratio. You are diluting the slower growing bacteria whilst breeding fast growing yeast.

Any healthy sourdough contains a balance of both yeast and bacteria. My (limited) understanding is that temperature and hydration are the biggest influences on that balance. I think the general idea is to create an environment where the good microbes can thrive and crowd out the toxic microbes.

This is interesting, if fairly superficial, reading:
https://modernistcuisine.com/mc/sourdough-science/

Personally, I'm quite slapdash with my sourdough maintenance regime but the unpredictability is part of the fun. As long as I get something edible out of the process, I don't mind if it's not Instagram-perfect. It pretty much always tastes better than any shop-bought bread.

It would be interesting to get a laboratory analysis of my sourdough, though obviously there's every chance the composition would have changed by the time the results came back.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 19 July, 2020, 09:37:46 pm
This week I managed to get some Sainsbo's strong white bread flour.
Huzzah!
I thought it was the Gilchrists wholemeal that was making my bread shite, but it seems it was the Mungoswells white.
(I wonder if if was plain white mislabelled as strong white)

Anyway, now I can actually make a bog standard yeasted loaf again I can get back on the sourdough horse.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 July, 2020, 09:59:05 pm
I made some Chelsea buns the other day. As usual, they unravelled during their final rise and, although they tasted fine, were disappointingly misshapen.

It then dawned on my why. When you buy commercially-produced Chelsea buns, they have been packed together so tightly in the tin that they haven't got room to spread out and unravel as they rise, but they must rise vertically, and that keeps them tightly-wound. I'm going to do another batch in the near future.

And something I've discovered about our breadmaker, a Panasonic. On the last two occasions that I've used a recipe involving only a small amount of dough (250g flour in each case) it has come within a gnat's crotchet of leaping off the worktop. I normally make loaves involving at least 400g of flour and we don't seem to get that problem. This seems to be a corollary to the partially-filled washing machine leaping across the kitchen. My next batch of Chelsea buns will be a double quantity of "enriched" dough - so called because it has an egg in it.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 21 July, 2020, 08:49:12 am
packed together so tightly in the tin that they haven't got room to spread out and unravel as they rise, but they must rise vertically

Tbh, I thought that was always their USP.

They’re a Georgian invention, originally sold at the imaginatively named Chelsea Bun House.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 21 July, 2020, 09:44:44 am
Back on sourdough. I slash away with a razor blade but don’t get the eruption and crispy bit that tragic hipsters crave. Leastways not at the slashing site- my last two loaves have erupted elsewhere on the crust, making odd shaped loaves. I use The Flatus Recipe, 220c fan oven, dish of water for humidity. Good amount of oven spring, batard  shape loaf. Should I be slashing deeper?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 21 July, 2020, 09:53:21 am
245⁰c.  Put dough in casserole dish. 30 mins lid on, then  20-25 with lid off depending on how dark a crust you'd like. Slash with razor blade at very shallow angle to bread.

Only this is the authentic recipe with the Flatus Seal of Approval.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 21 July, 2020, 10:28:09 am
Back on sourdough. I slash away with a razor blade but don’t get the eruption and crispy bit that tragic hipsters crave. Leastways not at the slashing site- my last two loaves have erupted elsewhere on the crust, making odd shaped loaves.

I get this all the time. It’s because the top crust is setting before it has had a chance to do its exploding thing. But there is still rising power in the dough, so it needs to find a release elsewhere...

If you’re not using a cloche or Dutch oven, you might find you get better results by reducing the temperature to 200.

You can also try misting the surface of the loaf with water before putting it in the oven.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 21 July, 2020, 10:41:06 am
Back on sourdough. I slash away with a razor blade but don’t get the eruption and crispy bit that tragic hipsters crave. Leastways not at the slashing site- my last two loaves have erupted elsewhere on the crust, making odd shaped loaves. I use The Flatus Recipe, 220c fan oven, dish of water for humidity. Good amount of oven spring, batard  shape loaf. Should I be slashing deeper?
That was Thatcher's tactic, wasn't it ?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 21 July, 2020, 01:38:15 pm
That was Thatcher's tactic, wasn't it ?

You are Ben Elton AICMFP
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 21 July, 2020, 01:47:27 pm
That was Thatcher's tactic, wasn't it ?

You are Ben Elton AICMFP
:-)  Many many years ago I was mistaken for him (though how on earth is completely beyond me.)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 25 July, 2020, 04:02:07 pm
Sort of bready

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50151703507_3e669bebb6.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jpJAce)2020-07-25_04-00-56 (https://flic.kr/p/2jpJAce) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 26 July, 2020, 06:27:20 pm
My new grain mill arrived on Friday and today was the first chance I had to use it.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50155840761_3025e85f75_4k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jq6N4c)
Grain mill (https://flic.kr/p/2jq6N4c) by Steve Cunio (https://www.flickr.com/photos/stevecunio/), on Flickr
First flour coming out of the mill (apart from the small amount run through first to clear out any debris from the stones).

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50155841226_7c119f571c_4k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jq6Ncd)
Grain mill (https://flic.kr/p/2jq6Ncd) by Steve Cunio (https://www.flickr.com/photos/stevecunio/), on Flickr
And the batch of bread from said flour. It's 100% wholemeal wheat. Conventional yeast, not sourdough. Poolish or sponge method.


Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 27 July, 2020, 09:18:31 am
Pardon me for being dim, but how can a wheat grain not be 100% wholemeal?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 27 July, 2020, 09:41:39 am
True. But I also have spelt and rye to play with.
We tasted the bread this morning. MrsC commented that it was nice,  but that she couldn’t tell the difference from our normal wholemeal.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 27 July, 2020, 10:51:59 am
I was going to ask, why? Is there any benefit, health wise or flavour?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 27 July, 2020, 10:57:46 am
Is it like grinding your own coffee beans?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 27 July, 2020, 12:52:08 pm
To be honest, it's a toy. A friend recommended it and MrsC suggested we might get one. This was just as lockdown was starting, I'd had a bonus from work and it seemed like a good idea. It will be most useful for some of the recipes we make for re-enacting demonstrations. It can be easier to get whole barley than barley flour at times, for instance.
But mostly it's a toy.

I will keep the panel informed it we do find any real advantages.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 29 July, 2020, 01:58:05 pm
Is it like grinding your own coffee beans?

Isn't that more to do with getting the right grind for your coffee maker for the best extraction?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 29 July, 2020, 03:23:49 pm
Is it like grinding your own coffee beans?

Isn't that more to do with getting the right grind for your coffee maker for the best extraction?

Exactly. I'm assuming the grain grinder is adjustable for required level of coarseness - from semolina to tipo 00.

Grinding your own coffee beans is also to do with freshness, but I imagine that's less of a concern with grains for breadmaking.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 29 July, 2020, 03:41:38 pm
It is adjustable.  Not sure it will go quite as fine as 00 but it’s pretty good.
More experimentation is needed.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 05 August, 2020, 06:57:10 pm
Online baking suppliers seem to be more or less back to normal stock levels.

I just ordered a 16kg sack of Shipton Mill No.4 (https://www.shipton-mill.com/bulk-shop/untreated-organic-white-flour-no-4.htm), which I've seen recommended elsewhere. I didn't go for the Canadian because I've read that while it has higher protein content, so gives a more impressive rise, it's not as good as the No.4 for flavour. I might try the Canadian another time though.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 07 August, 2020, 10:16:36 am
I just ordered a 16kg sack of Shipton Mill No.4 (https://www.shipton-mill.com/bulk-shop/untreated-organic-white-flour-no-4.htm)...

And the delivery arrived this morning, which is surprisingly quick - especially given that the courier was Parcelfarce.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 08 August, 2020, 08:52:53 am
I’m loving the shipton mill light malt house at the moment, with rye in my starter.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 15 August, 2020, 01:14:37 pm
I had a first go at Ciabatta today. It's tasty, but the recipe had me baking on paper which has stuck to about half the underside. I guess more flour or a dryer outside are the answer.
(https://betweenbeyond.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/img_20200815_131045.jpg)

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 29 August, 2020, 06:17:13 pm
Today I upped my cinnamon bun game by using a piece of thread to cut the 'sausage' into bun slices.
Much neater and made my inner control freak happy.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50281957282_d21fd2c0e2.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jBfb6Y)2020-08-29_01-12-51 (https://flic.kr/p/2jBfb6Y) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 30 August, 2020, 10:57:14 am
I took delivery of another 16kg of malted brown flour from Marriages earlier this week. Best before date 21st April 2021. I'll be surprised if it survives into the new year.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 30 August, 2020, 12:08:51 pm
Ground a couple of pounds of rye meal just now, which is currently making a sponge/poolish for some ~50:50 rye-wholewheat bread.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 30 August, 2020, 08:27:10 pm
Foolishly scaled up my standard bread recipe to make enough dough for three large loaves this afternoon. Thought it would be more efficient than making one loaf at a time, but I underestimated how much hard work it is to knead that much dough by hand.

Also, I really need to invest in decent baker's scales and a very large mixing/proving bowl if I want to do that again.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 30 August, 2020, 10:06:47 pm
Also, I really need to invest in decent baker's scales and a very large mixing/proving bowl if I want to do that again.

https://www.bakerybits.co.uk/kd8000-bakery-scales.html

I can recommend these - not cheap for what they are, but have thus far stood up to abuse pretty well, and the ability to use a wall wart is nice. Haven't used the baker's percentage function except to play with, but if you were doing lots of scaling up/down or using inconsistent amounts of flour I can see that being helpful.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 30 August, 2020, 10:12:44 pm
Those are the exact ones I already had my eye on. Good to know they're recommended, thanks!  :thumbsup:

(Also looked at some Salter scales with a 15kg capacity on Nisbets, but they're four times the price. Nisbets do have some seriously big (https://www.nisbets.co.uk/borgeat-round-bottom-whipping-bowl-400mm/k559) mixing bowls as well though.)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 30 August, 2020, 10:27:45 pm
That's a bowl and a half! I suppose the scales felt a bit expensive compared to the cheapo Lidl ones I'd previously been using, but compared to professional kit they're pretty reasonable. I'd recommend getting a pair of drug dealer's scales to go alongside them (bakery bits do a decent set for a tenner or so), for things that you may want to measure to sub-gram accuracy - I use mine mostly for yeast for cold-proof doughs (where amounts are of the order of 1.5g), and for coffee beans.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 06 September, 2020, 09:47:10 am
Do iced fruit buns count as bread?

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50310148288_bc61e862f4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jDJEiN)

Perfect with a cup of tea. Need to work on my icing technique though.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 07 September, 2020, 09:55:06 pm
One for Ham

(https://i.imgur.com/hHg8eVGl.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 07 September, 2020, 10:04:01 pm
 :thumbsup:

I wonder if Mrs Ham would notice if I installed one of those into a quiet corner of the kitchen

(and checkout the gallic mask wearing)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 08 September, 2020, 04:57:48 pm
:thumbsup:

I wonder if Mrs Ham would notice if I installed one of those into a quiet corner of the kitchen

(and checkout the gallic mask wearing)

Supose you get a smaller one.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 09 September, 2020, 08:32:32 pm
New toy:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50324431362_3998dd5b56.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jEZSaG)2020-09-09_07-40-21 (https://flic.kr/p/2jEZSaG) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Kim on 09 September, 2020, 08:46:38 pm
New toy:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50324431362_3998dd5b56.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jEZSaG)2020-09-09_07-40-21 (https://flic.kr/p/2jEZSaG) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

 :o  Can you do PCR on it?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mr Larrington on 09 September, 2020, 10:14:15 pm
Oooh, a baby autoclave!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 09 September, 2020, 10:30:58 pm
My brother asked if I was going to be making dinosaurs....
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 09 September, 2020, 10:58:47 pm
Ooh, do report back - I've had my eye on one of those for ages, and given how cold my kitchen gets in winter I may yet crack...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: L CC on 10 September, 2020, 12:26:32 pm
Need to work on my icing technique though.
Agreed. You need to keep practising, and send any flawed product here.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 10 September, 2020, 05:41:40 pm
Ooh, do report back - I've had my eye on one of those for ages, and given how cold my kitchen gets in winter I may yet crack...

As you can see from the picture I was measuring it's efficacy with the help of my probe thermometer. The kitchen was already warm (for Scottish values of warm) cos I had the oven on, but it popped up to 30C and stayed there, same with 40 and 49C. I didn't bother testing out the slow cooker heating function as that is secondary to my requirements (though I dare say I will try it out some time).

Next task is to see if I can find a generic upper wire rack for it that's cheaper than the OEM B&T one.  And bake some bread (prolly this weekend).

ETA - because it's a bit of a frivolous spend I did research the idea of using a cool box with a seedling mat & temp controller, but decided that although cheaper would take up too much space. Having said that the B&T was bigger than I was expecting (despite the fact I'd read all the info on dimensions), though it does at least fold flat.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 11 September, 2020, 06:39:14 pm
Just had a thought about another use for the Brød & Taylor proofer - as a plate warming device.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ashaman42 on 12 September, 2020, 08:34:01 pm
Well I made some bread today, shaped it into loafy shape and stuck it in a warm oven for a second prove and...well you can see for youselves:

(https://i.imgur.com/eNJccBH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qhoo2Z7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3EY4Idi.jpg)

Ah well, it's still tasty so not exactly a failure.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 13 September, 2020, 06:53:36 pm
Ooh, do report back - I've had my eye on one of those for ages, and given how cold my kitchen gets in winter I may yet crack...

Next task is to see if I can find a generic upper wire rack for it that's cheaper than the OEM B&T one.  And bake some bread (prolly this weekend).


I'm failing at the wire rack thing. Well not exactly, but all the folding cake cooling rack that look like they would do the job are about £12 for a set of three. I don't need 3, I only want 1. I really object to paying B&T £30 plus £6 delivery just for their one so that I don't have 2 racks sitting about unused.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 13 September, 2020, 08:22:12 pm
Ooh, do report back - I've had my eye on one of those for ages, and given how cold my kitchen gets in winter I may yet crack...

Next task is to see if I can find a generic upper wire rack for it that's cheaper than the OEM B&T one.  And bake some bread (prolly this weekend).


I'm failing at the wire rack thing. Well not exactly, but all the folding cake cooling rack that look like they would do the job are about £12 for a set of three. I don't need 3, I only want 1. I really object to paying B&T £30 plus £6 delivery just for their one so that I don't have 2 racks sitting about unused.
Lakeland? I know they do the stack of three ones, but I'm sure they do others.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 13 September, 2020, 10:26:30 pm
Ooh, do report back - I've had my eye on one of those for ages, and given how cold my kitchen gets in winter I may yet crack...

Next task is to see if I can find a generic upper wire rack for it that's cheaper than the OEM B&T one.  And bake some bread (prolly this weekend).


I'm failing at the wire rack thing. Well not exactly, but all the folding cake cooling rack that look like they would do the job are about £12 for a set of three. I don't need 3, I only want 1. I really object to paying B&T £30 plus £6 delivery just for their one so that I don't have 2 racks sitting about unused.

Consider finding a stainless rectangular BBQ grill that you could chop down if needed?  eg (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BBQ-Stainless-Steel-Grill-Grate-Grid-Wire-Mesh-Rack-Cook-Replacement-Net-3Size/392897313879?var=661806856777&hash=item5b7a813c57:g:NpQAAOSwWItfKSt7)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 14 September, 2020, 07:07:06 pm
I could, but it needs legs to be the upper tier in the proofer. And preferably folding ones so that I can store it easily when not in use.
I did have a vague memory of having an upper wire rack on legs from our old combi micro oven loafing about in the outhouse somewhere, but having just had a rummage it looks like I tossed that out in the last purge.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 16 September, 2020, 09:22:47 am
I learned just now that the term "pumpernickel" means "devil's fart".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumpernickel

For that reason, I think I ought to make some, but I will need some rye flour first.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 19 September, 2020, 10:46:21 pm
Brød & Taylor proofer:

Buns at time 0 in the proofer
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50360787006_daf194ce94.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jJdcr9)2020-09-19_09-22-11 (https://flic.kr/p/2jJdcr9) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

After 90mins, inflatable buns
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50360786461_e9cab36ff1.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jJdcgK)2020-09-19_09-22-02 (https://flic.kr/p/2jJdcgK) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

Baked
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50361040711_526ea8df34.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jJeuRn)2020-09-19_10-39-47 (https://flic.kr/p/2jJeuRn) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

Happy so far. We had sun in Furrybootoon today so the first prove of the dough was done in the late afternoon sun but I certainly needed the proofer for the 2nd prove.

Also, it was a good job I bought a 3 tier cooling rack set cos I needed two of the racks to fit all those buns in the proofer.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 20 September, 2020, 07:50:06 am
There's quite clearly some hanky panky going on, as those buns managed to procreate in the time they were being baked. Look good, though.

Out of idle curiosity (as my oven has a proving setting) how does the B&T maintain humidity? In the case of my oven, I slosh about 100ml of water in the bottom, and wipe it out to bake  (to avoid calcification).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 20 September, 2020, 04:18:27 pm

Out of idle curiosity (as my oven has a proving setting) how does the B&T maintain humidity? In the case of my oven, I slosh about 100ml of water in the bottom, and wipe it out to bake  (to avoid calcification).

Are you not in danger of getting water in the electrics if you bung the water directly in the oven?

Yeah, those photos show 3 different tins of buns.
The B&T comes with a little aluminium tray for water which goes on the hotplate under the rack.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 20 September, 2020, 04:44:23 pm
Put simply, no. I could witter on about how it is designed for it, but I suspect that water in the bottom of any oven should be no more of an issue than in a roasting dish. The odd feature of the proving setting is that neff appear to have deployed a dedicated bottom element, as well as the normal bottom element. The normal bottom element gets very hot until the oven reaches the temperature. On proving, the bottom doesn't get hot at all, simply warm, hardly that. And, if you put hot water in the bottom it decides it won't do anything

(as mentioned previously, it is also why ICNBA to go down the sour dough route: Dough in the oven, 25 min, into the tins, 25 min, turn on the heat, 45 mins later turn out. As you may find, proving in a device is very consistent)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 20 September, 2020, 04:47:45 pm
Just out of the oven

(https://i.ibb.co/9Hf29Tr/20200920-164545.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tpNcMsJ)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 20 September, 2020, 04:48:14 pm
Thinking about it, the oven here has a defrost function which just circulates room temp air. 

Not sure it matters here tho.  Doesn't get that cold.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Russell on 26 September, 2020, 05:27:01 pm
Just had a soda bread for lunch made with 50% white and 50% Cotswold Crunch.  Very nice! Warm out of the oven with salad and mackeral fillets.

https://www.fwpmatthews.co.uk/product/cotswold-crunch-flour/ (https://www.fwpmatthews.co.uk/product/cotswold-crunch-flour/)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 12 October, 2020, 11:40:46 am
The latest part baked baguettes

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ohI_LWfP92A/X4QuV70e9bI/AAAAAAADYNk/8E_-6ckMWdcgf_lejyE-Xr_UcgEDgaJjACPcBGAsYHg/s1024/PXL_20201011_085956356.jpg)

I think I might be getting the knack.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 12 October, 2020, 06:46:39 pm
Pas mal...

What do you use to prove them - a couchette?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 12 October, 2020, 07:28:11 pm
No, a plastic bowl covered with oiled clingfilm.

Dough is 70%, mixed and kept at room temperature. 2x yeast content, multiple proves, knocking back by lifting and folding to try to incorporate air. Final raise in the tins, covered with a tea towel. About 200g of flour per baguette. Baked @ 240 "Circotherm Intensive" on my oven, and I slosh boiling water into a solid tray beneath the rack at the start. Full baking is about 25 min, part baking is about 12 with another 12 @200 to finish.

(as a by the bye, I'm very pleased with the evenness of the bake, some slight darkening on either end of the l/h one, but otherwise even)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 20 October, 2020, 03:04:31 pm
Made a loaf this morning. All white flour, high hydration (~75%). By the end of proving, it was still very wet and sticky, like not-quite-set jelly, and a bit stuck to the side as I was turning it out, so it ended up being a bit of a dough splat, but at least it rose a bit in the oven, so not a total disaster...

Just cut into it and it's got just the right level of aeration inside - plenty of evenly sized bubbles, none too big. And it's flippin' delicious.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 06 November, 2020, 10:56:33 pm
In Mr Tesco's House of Toothy Comestibles this evening, I spied, in the freezer section, frozen (duh) sourdough.

This is Wrong. Very Wrong.

ETA. Not frozen sourdough bread, frozen sour dough, so you can make sourdough bread at home without all that tedious kneading nonsense. It was next to the clip on hipster beards.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 06 November, 2020, 11:22:29 pm
In Mr Tesco's House of Toothy Comestibles this evening, I spied, in the freezer section, frozen (duh) sourdough.

This is Wrong. Very Wrong.

ETA. Not frozen sourdough bread, frozen sour dough, so you can make sourdough bread at home without all that tedious kneading nonsense. It was next to the clip on hipster beards.

Is that sourdough starter?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 07 November, 2020, 12:12:15 am
Ingredients:
Fortified WHEAT Flour (with Calcium Carbonate, Iron, Niacin, Thiamin), Water, Dried Fermented WHEAT Flour, Dried Durum WHEAT Sourdough, Salt, Yeast, Emulsifier: Mono- and diacetyl tartaric acid esters of mono- and diglycerides of fatty acids; Flour Treatment Agent: Ascorbic Acid; Enzymes, Rapeseed Oil.

No, it's not sourdough starter. It's made by the Northern Dough Company, who say
"There aren’t many things that beat the smell of freshly baked bread in the oven. Which is why we were so excited to introduce our Sourdough bread dough to the family. If you know thing or two about making Sourdough from scratch, you’ll know it requires a good helping of time, and double measures of patience. So, being the generous folk that we are, we’ve done the hard bit, so you can fast-forward to the fun bit."

Calling it sourdough is a bit of a stretch.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 07 November, 2020, 11:49:48 am
Calling it sourdough is a bit of a stretch.

And fold?

I think it’s ok to call it sourdough, but the added ingredients are enough to put me off.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 November, 2020, 01:03:20 pm
In Mr Tesco's House of Toothy Comestibles this evening, I spied, in the freezer section, frozen (duh) sourdough.

This is Wrong. Very Wrong.

ETA. Not frozen sourdough bread, frozen sour dough, so you can make sourdough bread at home without all that tedious kneading nonsense. It was next to the clip on hipster beards.
Do you have to defrost the beards before wearing?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 07 November, 2020, 05:51:47 pm
In Mr Tesco's House of Toothy Comestibles this evening, I spied, in the freezer section, frozen (duh) sourdough.

This is Wrong. Very Wrong.

ETA. Not frozen sourdough bread, frozen sour dough, so you can make sourdough bread at home without all that tedious kneading nonsense. It was next to the clip on hipster beards.
Do you have to defrost the beards before wearing?
Handily the beards are on one of those display stands at the end of the aisle. Pretend sourdough one side, a selection of sewing aids the other
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 11 November, 2020, 10:47:18 pm
I made a loaf this evening.

With dried yeast. Prove for 30 minutes, knock back, shape and prove again for an hour.  Bake for 40 minutes at 220C.

So quick!  I'll see what it tastes like later.

I used Cotswold Crunch "a speciality blend of strong white flour, malted wheat flakes and malt flour for bread and rolls. " which I'd bought in Lockdown 1.0 before I'd scored my 16kg bag of Canadian super duper flour and proved it in an oval banneton. 
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ginger Cat on 14 November, 2020, 11:18:00 am
Finally replaced the cooker- the gas hob was fine but the oven has been kaput for 3 or 4 years. I got fed up with being restricted to a small halogen bench-top oven, took delivery of New Cooker on Monday. Induction hob, decent oven with a steam cycle option. I'm using a pizza stone to cook the bread on.

This week I baked sourdough for the first time. A batch of 100% wholemeal, then a batch of white. Both came out OK although I have yet to master the art of shaping. They taste great though.

More practice required..........

GC
Title: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 14 November, 2020, 11:28:40 am
I made a loaf this evening.

With dried yeast. Prove for 30 minutes, knock back, shape and prove again for an hour.  Bake for 40 minutes at 220C.

So quick!  I'll see what it tastes like later.

I used Cotswold Crunch "a speciality blend of strong white flour, malted wheat flakes and malt flour for bread and rolls. " which I'd bought in Lockdown 1.0 before I'd scored my 16kg bag of Canadian super duper flour and proved it in an oval banneton.

I’ve done a few non-sourdough loaves lately. Suspect I will need to hand in my hipster card if they find out.

Mainly out of necessity, since I realised I’d run out of bread and needed something for breakfast. My standard recipe is 20% wholemeal with a good glug of olive oil - makes a nice soft sandwich loaf.

Your proving times are ridiculously quick though - I can’t match that, even with the oven’s 40° proving setting. Are you using industrial quantities of yeast or something?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 14 November, 2020, 11:34:43 am

Your proving times are ridiculously quick though - I can’t match that, even with the oven’s 40° proving setting. Are you using industrial quantities of yeast or something?

My standard proving is 25 + 25 minutes in the oven "proving" setting, then leave it in as it heats to temp (45 minutes start to de-tin + 5 minutes at the end), normal quantities of yeast (teaspoon per 500g), sub two hours end to end. I bake at least 1.5Kg of flour dough per week, as I am sure I've mentioned, one of the main reasons I don't faff about with sourdough.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 14 November, 2020, 11:45:37 am
Hmmm. Could be that my yeast is duff, or maybe just a bit old and tired. It’s definitely not as fast acting though.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 14 November, 2020, 12:47:12 pm
I made a loaf this evening.

With dried yeast. Prove for 30 minutes, knock back, shape and prove again for an hour.  Bake for 40 minutes at 220C.

So quick!  I'll see what it tastes like later.

I used Cotswold Crunch "a speciality blend of strong white flour, malted wheat flakes and malt flour for bread and rolls. " which I'd bought in Lockdown 1.0 before I'd scored my 16kg bag of Canadian super duper flour and proved it in an oval banneton.

I’ve done a few non-sourdough loaves lately. Suspect I will need to hand in my hipster card if they find out.

Mainly out of necessity, since I realised I’d run out of bread and needed something for breakfast. My standard recipe is 20% wholemeal with a good glug of olive oil - makes a nice soft sandwich loaf.

Your proving times are ridiculously quick though - I can’t match that, even with the oven’s 40° proving setting. Are you using industrial quantities of yeast or something?

I thought that was quick too. I just followed the recipe on the packet of flour (or until doubled in size). Three teaspoons of dried yeast.  Taste was a bit meh compared to my sour dough though.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 14 November, 2020, 12:58:18 pm
Mine defo doesn't take 25mins. A bit quicker if I do it in the Brød & Taylor but it suggests you should only prove at 28°C if you're using commercial yeast so still not 25 plus 25 I don't think.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 14 November, 2020, 02:46:47 pm
I've only been baking like that for about 20 years, so maybe it isn't reliable ;)  I've been doing it that way from when I first got a Neff oven with a proving setting, as I remember (? dubious value) it didn't take me long to settle into that routine. Not that it makes any difference, but I normally use a large tin (https://www.nisbets.co.uk/matfer-bourgeat-exoglass-bread-mould-305mm/fa973) that takes 750g of flour. The first raise isn't necessarily doubled in size, but the second is, and the end product is as close to perfect as I need.

Some historic pics I've posted

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_LP9D_0nbGE/X6_s9ZpaOkI/AAAAAAADYhk/Pm4Y-6VlbHkd-PGTlIhULn86lDndFJeGwCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/IMG_0683.JPG)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Rw-dlEk-vas/X6_s9X2w4XI/AAAAAAADYhk/WCcqgFM6ueo2K2j42QSQ3yV87Raoaup1QCPcBGAsYHg/s1024/IMG_1084.JPG)

That white looks like it might have a 50% uplift in yeast but will be the same time rising, the wholemeal is standard.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 14 November, 2020, 04:34:46 pm
Three teaspoons of dried yeast.  Taste was a bit meh compared to my sour dough though.

That does sound like quite a lot of yeast to me. But it depends on the size of the loaf... Ham’s 1tsp per 500g is about the same as what I use.

Poor flavour *may* be a sign of too much yeast (but could also be other reasons).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 14 November, 2020, 07:34:11 pm
a large tin (https://www.nisbets.co.uk/matfer-bourgeat-exoglass-bread-mould-305mm/fa973)

"a stylish matt-black colourway that is sure to make it stand out in any kitchen"

The people who write these things... what are they thinking? It's a loaf tin, ffs! ;D

Does look like a good bit of kit though. As it should at that price!

And yes, going by the pictorial evidence, I don't think anyone can question your technique.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 14 November, 2020, 08:54:01 pm
Hmmm. Could be that my yeast is duff, or maybe just a bit old and tired. It’s definitely not as fast acting though.

Now I'm convinced it's the yeast. I made another loaf this evening, using different yeast.

Stuck it in the oven on the proving setting then got distracted and did other stuff... Came back 45 minutes later to find it had almost tripled in volume. Oops!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 14 November, 2020, 09:38:16 pm
I iz an exoglass fanboi, I've been using the solid spatula and the flat one now named "peleton" forever. When I saw the loaf tins, I knew I couldn't justify on an economic basis but I still couldn't resist. Loaves simply slide out like excrement off a heated digging implement (although I am too scared to go cold turkey and use the very lightest smear of oil)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ginger Cat on 22 November, 2020, 06:50:19 pm
More sourdough today. Using the "YQ" flour from Hodomedods: https://hodmedods.co.uk/collections/flours/products/yq-wheat-flour

Thankfully they have a specific recipe for using 100% YQ flour in sourdough:  https://hodmedods.co.uk/blogs/recipes/wholegrain-sourdough-using-yq-wakelyns-population-wheat

I can confirm the recipe works a treat, even though it is a little different from conventional sourdough recipes. Which makes sense as the flour is more akin to spelt than to a hard wheat. (I used the mixer rather than hand-mix as that meant I could do the kneading whilst cooking my Sunday bacon & eggs, all worked out fine).

The result is a nicely risen loaf, and the taste is really good. Tangy (note I stir the hooch into my starter to maintain acidity), nutty, flavoursome.

I also made some Staffordshire oatcakes from the starter leavings (from refreshment) yesterday, basically add some oat milk and fine oatmeal to the waste starter to make a batter, leave for 10 min then cook in a hot griddle (frying pan) like pancakes. Top-notch flavour and texture and I suspect more authentic than using bakers yeast to leaven (staffs oatcakes being peasant food originally and bakers yeast wasn't really cheap until post-WWII).   

(Have taken delivery of a 16kg bag of YQ flour so I'm glad it works for bread as well as pastries etc!)

GC
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 25 December, 2020, 12:42:46 am
Has anyone used a breadmaker  to make rye bread?

I've got the Panasonic 2500 and that doesn't have a rye programme - apparently the 2501 does.

I've just followed this recipe:

https://www.theideaskitchen.com.au/dark-rye-bread/

adjusted to 100g strong white to 400g rye,

but I'm going to bake it on programme 4, which is the wholemeal programme on my machine.

I have invested in a rye paddle and I've set the loaf to be ready for 1pm tomorrow. That means that I will be in the kitchen to keep an eye on the breadmaker when it's kneading it. I don't want it leaping off the surface and smashing to bits, which happened to its predecessor.

If it turns out to be a disaster, a 1pm finish gives me time to make a wholemeal loaf to be ready before tea time, which I anticipate will be pretty late tomorrow because of all the food we have planned for lunch time.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 25 December, 2020, 02:51:46 pm
It worked really well! I'm eating some now with a chunk of strong cheddar. Dense and puddingy, but that's what you want with a rye bread.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: pcolbeck on 30 December, 2020, 06:33:26 pm
We make a lot of 50% rye. Its program 7 on a 2502 and only takes 3.5 hours.
Always turns out really well with either light or dark rye flour.

Made some this afternoon to go with a sausage casserole.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 30 December, 2020, 08:55:44 pm
For Christmas I got a pizza stone and a broken door seal on the main oven. Loaves have been coming out a bit lighter, but still tasty.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: The Family Cyclist on 01 January, 2021, 08:03:11 pm
Advice sort please. I use a basic 1kg strong flour, 600ml water, two sachets quick yeast, salt and dash of whatever cooking oil is to hand. Works really well when I knead by hand and tbf I normally do as enjoy it.

However sometimes when I'm in a rush or don't want to get whinged at for getting flour everywhere I use the kenwood with bread hook and it just seems to go on the hook and get whacked around. It tastes alright but find it doesn't hold its shape as I don't use tins. Hand made I can shape put on tray for mini second prove while oven heats up and get a decent shaped loaf. With the mixer it just spreads. Any suggestions. I way just not be giving it long enough but worried if over kneading
Oh and don't like tins and find they stick. I may just have crap tins
Title: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 01 January, 2021, 08:23:14 pm
However sometimes when I'm in a rush or don't want to get whinged at for getting flour everywhere I use the kenwood with bread hook and it just seems to go on the hook and get whacked around.

I have a KitchenAid rather than a Kenwood, so it may not behave exactly the same, but...

Keep it on a low speed (2/10 is recommended for the KitchenAid), and don’t knead for too long - if it starts climbing up the hook, that’s a sign it’s done. According to things I’ve read online, some people get better results when adding the liquid gradually rather than all at once.

Check the dough quantity is appropriate for the bowl capacity too.


Quote
Oh and don't like tins and find they stick. I may just have crap tins

Grease and flour. I use rye flour.

My new baking book recommends breadcrumbs instead of flour but I’ve not tried that yet.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 01 January, 2021, 09:35:53 pm
For tins, you can't do better than the Matfer Exoglass (https://www.nisbets.co.uk/kitchenware-and-knives/pastry-and-baking-supplies/bakeware/loaf-tins/_/a33-4?q=%3Ap_brand%3Amatfer20bourgeat&sort=match-rate-desc). They are pricey, but with the lightest smear of oil they just turn the bread out, like magic, however wet the dough. (You can use without any oil, but then they are less magical). The eye watering cost is offset by the use they get, I bake 750g flour dough in each of the large tins - or should I say, moulds - at least weekly.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 01 January, 2021, 10:21:44 pm
I have used a Kenwood Chef in the past, though not doing so at the mo because I'm only making 500g at a time and I find it's too small for the Chef. I'm only using about 250ml water but that's very flour dependant.
I find the same with the Chef hook. Have you tried mixing it til it's come together and then leaving it for 10-15mins before giving it a quick mix again?
I use silicone loaf moulds BTW.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: orienteer on 02 January, 2021, 10:31:25 am
Saw a Japanese TV programme about Panasonic's development of their bread maker.

They found that stretching the dough during kneading was the key to a good loaf. That's why their breadmakers have two vertical ridges on the sides.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Kim on 02 January, 2021, 05:28:25 pm
Saw a Japanese TV programme about Panasonic's development of their bread maker.

They found that stretching the dough during kneading was the key to a good loaf. That's why their breadmakers have two vertical ridges on the sides.

It's probably no coincidence that this is the bit where there's inevitably stuff that needs a bit of teflon-friendly Persuasion to clean off.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 02 January, 2021, 10:20:26 pm
I discovered an annoying design change in the Panasonic bread makers today.

I decided tot make a mostly-rye loaf today, and mixed all the ingredients, including water, in the bucket, only to realise that I hand't changed over from the wheat paddle to the rye paddle. Mildly irritating, thought I, but i have an older bucket from a previous, defunct, breadmaker so I thought I'd put the rye paddle in that and then tip all the ingredients into the old bucket, which looksidentical in shape to teh new bucket.

Except it isn't. Both are held into the breadmaker by bayonet fixings. The old bucket has four "hooks", the new bucket only two...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 10 January, 2021, 04:31:16 pm
I fear my sourdough starter has died. Damn.

Not entirely sure how or why. I keep it in the fridge between uses. Took it out yesterday morning to feed prior to baking this weekend but it hasn’t shown any sign of activity.

I shall nail it to the perch for the time being, in case it is just resting. Not hopeful though.

Oh well, I can always make a new one, but it’s disappointing all the same.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 10 January, 2021, 04:33:35 pm
Our Kenwood is making occasional rather ugly clunking sounds when it's working hard.

Bugger.

If it fails catastrophically we will have to replace in a hurry.

Given the ratings here for the Panasonic I think that's where we'll end up.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 10 January, 2021, 04:34:43 pm
And, in other news, we've just dispensed the last of the 16Kg bag of bread flour we bought in June (?)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 10 January, 2021, 04:44:57 pm
And, in other news, we've just dispensed the last of the 16Kg bag of bread flour we bought in June (?)

I took delivery of a 16kg sack at the start of August and finished it early December. Need a re-up. Have been relying on supermarket shelves being well stocked in the meantime. Really should place an order very soon before Brexit really kicks in.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 10 January, 2021, 06:02:54 pm
Any recommendations for our next sack ?   Last sack was Heygates.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 10 January, 2021, 06:27:07 pm
Any recommendations for our next sack ?   Last sack was Heygates.

My last one was Shipton Mill No.4 because it was recommended elsewhere. I suspect not as strong as some (ie lower protein content) so maybe not the best option for long fermentation. A good all rounder though.

https://www.shipton-mill.com/flour-direct/untreated-organic-white-flour-no-4-105.htm
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 10 January, 2021, 06:28:42 pm
I had such a lot of grief making good bread when I was buying whatever flour I could get hold of during lockdown that I am only buying what I know again. At least until I can't get it again. Having said that I have a load of random stuff ordered in desperation (mostly Shipton Mill now) I need to use up before it goes bad.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 10 January, 2021, 06:47:07 pm
Any recommendations for our next sack ?   Last sack was Heygates.
I’m also on a sack of Shipton Mill no 4, plus a box of assorted Ciabatta, malt house, rye and wholemeal flours to add variety and get to free delivery.

My starter is light rye. I bake every 2 days (give or take) so don’t fridge my starter.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 10 January, 2021, 08:28:47 pm
My starter is light rye. I bake every 2 days (give or take) so don’t fridge my starter.

Mine is light rye too. It’s normally very active, and doesn’t usually take very long to get going after coming out of the fridge. I’ve previously left it two weeks without problem.

I’d love to be baking every day but just don’t get through enough bread. I suppose I could scale down and make smaller loaves more often.

Anyway, I think it might actually be ok after all. I’ve kept it warm since giving it another feed this morning and it seems to have risen slightly. Panic over!

In the meantime, I made a quick loaf with dried yeast which is fine to keep me going. Just don’t dob me in to hipster club, please.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: offcumden on 10 January, 2021, 09:16:34 pm
Having made bread on and off over the years, I've recently got back into it, mostly using the Kenwood bread machine, but with some nice crusty oven-baked loaves which started on the 'dough' cycle. Very interested to also be trying rye flour for the first time, gradually increasing the proportion of rye to wheat. Getting lots of inspiration from the contributions to this thread - Thanks!

Because I am the only one eating the bread most of the time, I slice it and bag it for the freezer  (I undoubtedly could consume more but it would do bad things for my power to weight ratio!).
Can I ask if anyone here has a recommendation for a good bread knife, as my S/S Pro Cook Professional is losing its edge on the golden crusts!?  Or is there perhaps a way of sharpening the serrated edge that I'm not aware of?  TIA.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 10 January, 2021, 09:56:33 pm
Baking and slicing into the freezer in my SOP, this is the modern equivalent of the knife that does perfect service and has done for the last *numberbiggerthan25* years.


https://www.nisbets.co.uk/victorinox-fibrox-larding-knife-serrated-blade-355mm/c684
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 10 January, 2021, 10:06:48 pm
...
I’d love to be baking every day but just don’t get through enough bread. I suppose I could scale down and make smaller loaves more often.

Anyway, I think it might actually be ok after all. I’ve kept it warm since giving it another feed this morning and it seems to have risen slightly. Panic over!

In the meantime, I made a quick loaf with dried yeast which is fine to keep me going. Just don’t dob me in to hipster club, please.

Glad to hear it’s coming out of hibernation!
I did tweak my recipes to be about right for 2 days for the 4 of us for most of them. I think I’d get bored every day, and we don’t have a lot of space in the freezer.
I also recently got a book of french not sourdough recipes, so use dried yeast sometimes too. Most recently some pain façon beaucaire.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: philip on 10 January, 2021, 10:24:43 pm
Or is there perhaps a way of sharpening the serrated edge that I'm not aware of?  TIA.
I use a traditional rod-shaped sharpening steel on my bread knife. It may not get back to original condition, but is certainly good enough as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: offcumden on 11 January, 2021, 08:17:34 pm
Thanks to Ham and to philip for replies.

That Victorinox knife looks like a good piece of kit if I decide to replace my current weapon.

Before I abandon the Pro Cook I'll have a go at fettling it using the steel I use on carving knives etc.  Some interesting YouTube videos on this, including  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tei9E2pTU3s

Another rye/wholewheat mixed loaf today:  smells lovely!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 24 January, 2021, 11:22:43 am
I made cinnamon buns yesterday. Need to work on my technique a bit - they didn't turn out quite as smart-looking as Mrs Pingu's, but they all got eaten before I had a chance to take a picture, which is an indication of how damn tasty they were (I only made a half-quantity of dough though, so it's not like I scoffed a full batch of buns).

The recipe was from my Christmas present, the Nordic Baking Book by Magnus Nilsson (https://www.phaidon.com/store/food-cook/the-nordic-baking-book-9780714876849/) (head chef at Fäviken). It's a magnificent tome - not so much a collection of recipes, more an encyclopaedic reference work. There's a whole chapter on sweet yeasted pastries, which opens with three variations on a basic sweet dough, followed by loads of recipes based on that dough, starting with the cinnamon buns. I shall be working my way through the chapter over the coming months... already got my eye on the Toscabullar ('Tosca buns' - filled with almond sugar paste and topped with toffee and almonds), and Skølebrod ('School buns' - filled with custard and topped with coconut). And then I'll move on to the cakes, breads, desserts...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 24 January, 2021, 02:48:13 pm
Do you have a spare room? :P
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 24 January, 2021, 02:58:42 pm
My starter is light rye. I bake every 2 days (give or take) so don’t fridge my starter.

Mine is light rye too. It’s normally very active, and doesn’t usually take very long to get going after coming out of the fridge. I’ve previously left it two weeks without problem.

I’d love to be baking every day but just don’t get through enough bread. I suppose I could scale down and make smaller loaves more often.

Anyway, I think it might actually be ok after all. I’ve kept it warm since giving it another feed this morning and it seems to have risen slightly. Panic over!

In the meantime, I made a quick loaf with dried yeast which is fine to keep me going. Just don’t dob me in to hipster club, please.

My starter passed away in november.  (neglect)

Got a new one going last week, using wholemeal (and now rye). It was doubling after two days. Its an absolute monster and I don't know what accounts for it being so much more active more than in summer other than wondering whether Mrs F is a bit yeasty at the moment.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 24 January, 2021, 08:21:42 pm
Do you have a spare room? :P

You'd be welcome any time - as long as you show me how you get your cinnamon buns looking so tidy!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 24 January, 2021, 09:12:18 pm
Do you have a spare room? :P

You'd be welcome any time - as long as you show me how you get your cinnamon buns looking so tidy!

Now *that* I can do. You just need either a bit of dental floss or sewing thread. Easy when you know how :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42E6FSYc_0c
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hellymedic on 24 January, 2021, 09:55:36 pm
My starter passed away in november.  (neglect)

I read that as 'My sister passed away..' and reread it before offering condolences.

Rapid reading has its downsides...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 26 January, 2021, 09:43:41 pm
^
I probably should get my sister out of the fridge and reanimate her, ready for action

Anyway, just did this...

(https://i.ibb.co/W3WB5J8/20210126-214045.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yRngPjv)
free image hosting (https://imgbb.com/)

Great spring. The starter is incredible. Must more active than my previous one.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 30 January, 2021, 07:00:07 pm
I got some fresh yeast from Morrisons today. You have to ask the baker for it, but he was very obliging, and interested to know what I was baking (see below). He'll cut you a piece off his big block - 20p for 50g. Bargain. He also mentioned that he could sell me a 16kg sack of flour for £9. Would have taken him up on that except I'm OK for flour at the moment.

Toscabullar ('Tosca buns' - filled with almond sugar paste and topped with toffee and almonds)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50891629032_bb7799848d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kx7UgS)

I should have left them a bit longer on the final rise. Also, the topping slid off some of them - I guess you're supposed to make an indentation in the top to prevent that. And I think I might need to experiment with the oven temperature to get the right balance of the buns cooking and the topping caramelising.

Very, very tasty though. Unbelievable amounts of butter involved. Definitely worth making again.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 30 January, 2021, 07:08:39 pm
Mmm they sound good :P

Someone on my twitter feed was posting pics of hot cross buns today. Maybe I should have a bash at making those.... any recommended recipes?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 30 January, 2021, 08:48:24 pm
The recipe I use is a Paul Hollywood one - I think it's this one:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/hot_cross_buns_74750

I also made a sourdough version based on the same recipe but I don't know that it's worth it.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: L CC on 31 January, 2021, 11:40:20 am
I haven't done bread in ages (10 years?) but yearned for Belgian buns.
Ah, that's why I don't do bread. They were delicious.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210131/292991c607c1546ab352e75e13b53809.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Canardly on 31 January, 2021, 12:20:17 pm
Ooooh they look nice.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 01 February, 2021, 11:35:58 am
I've been baking my own bread, only buying the occasional baguette, for more years than I care to think about. Right now, I have zero time, so I bought bread. From Waitrose, "bakers" loaves, so I thought would be ok. Jeez, is THAT what people think bread is supposed to be? The white was reasonable, but the wholemeal was puffy shite.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 01 February, 2021, 12:25:46 pm
I've been baking my own bread, only buying the occasional baguette, for more years than I care to think about. Right now, I have zero time, so I bought bread. From Waitrose, "bakers" loaves, so I thought would be ok. Jeez, is THAT what people think bread is supposed to be? The white was reasonable, but the wholemeal was puffy shite.

This is entirely the reason I decided to finally start making the effort to make my own regularly, rather than as a 'special occasion' thing.

I really don't know why I put up with shit bread for so many years. It's not like it's difficult to make your own, nor even necessarily all that time-consuming.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: L CC on 01 February, 2021, 04:12:42 pm
Well duh.
Bought bread isn't nice enough to tempt me. Home made is. Special occasion it shall remain.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 01 February, 2021, 04:57:46 pm
Bought bread isn't nice enough to tempt me.

Yes, there is that. I have been known to devour as much as half a loaf as soon as it's cool enough to cut into. I just can't resist fresh bread. I'm amazed I don't have diabetes yet.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 02 February, 2021, 09:37:46 pm
Right then hipsters. Sourdough. Do you knead or are you a disciple of stretch and fold? Or something of a mixture? Just to see what else is out there I've been watching too many YouTube videos, all which seem to be different.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 02 February, 2021, 09:41:40 pm
I shove it in the mixer.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 06 February, 2021, 02:24:04 pm
What I call kneading has a large element of stretch and fold. Unless it's my ciabatta, which gets a stretch and fold in the bowl with very little squashing.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 06 February, 2021, 03:33:22 pm
I usually knead but I'm not a disciple of anything. I'll just follow the recipe and hope I get tasty bread as a result. As far as I can tell, stretch and fold seems to be primarily a way of working with very wet and sticky doughs - and these will form gluten without kneading because of the high water content and long fermentation time. But others OTP know a lot more about this than me.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 07 February, 2021, 10:49:10 pm
I'm working on ways to improve the loaf shape, so watching a lot of Youtube on that, plus practice. I watched Bake With Jack and had a go at the technique there - no kneading, three lots of stretch and fold, then a preshape followed by a shape.   A shade higher hydration than I normally use (72% instead of 67%).  Good looking (and tasting loaf), still a bit of sticking to the basket and it could have done with a touch longer in the oven, but I'm quite pleased.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/wzXC2YL6o-4i0xQH_QY9BtGrNRH0MARHcu7xtvs3OGqqA1nVISnCtemAzv9p2Xlvk4UpoWysLcuk49K-6Y1rRvY0wIdEnYLVt66v7O73POu1OAE6C8bHN6juldW9F4jAwfw7PBa1mwU=w2400)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ginger Cat on 12 February, 2021, 11:06:31 pm
My latest invention is sourdough sodabread. An emergency recipe for when you forgot to bake the usual bread and run out of bread and all 3 starters need refreshing. You can have a loaf coming out within an hour of starting it so long as you put the oven to heat before you do anything else.

Take a bowl of the leavings from refreshing your starters. Ideally been left in fridge at least a week so nicely acidic.

Add enough Balachdre Rustic flour to get a soft dough.

Chuck in salt and a good helping of bicarb.

Knead a bit to mix it up.

Pop in a round tin, into a preheated oven and bake for 30 min or so.

It looked unpretty and is a bit crumbly ( though not dry), but boy it tastes soooooo good, even better with a bit of butter on and topped with some Somerset brie.

GC
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 13 February, 2021, 01:42:21 pm
Anyone got a recipe for a nice bread involving caraway seeds?

A few years ago a Hungarian bloke who worked with us for a while made a caraway bready thing. It was really nice so I thought I should make some. Still not got around to it...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 13 February, 2021, 01:46:10 pm
Try

http://boroughmarket.org.uk/recipes/rye-spelt-loaf

I made it over Christmas and is was very good.
MrsC then requested a version without caraway (so I didn't put any of the other seeds in either) and that was also rather scrummy.

Both are probably better toasted.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: L CC on 13 February, 2021, 03:54:18 pm
Anyone got a recipe for a nice bread involving caraway seeds?

A few years ago a Hungarian bloke who worked with us for a while made a caraway bready thing. It was really nice so I thought I should make some. Still not got around to it...
I'd just throw a bunch of caraway seeds in a standard wholemeal or rye mix.

I love caraway seeds, put them in random dishes when Mr Smith isn't looking.
Title: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 13 February, 2021, 04:19:14 pm
I used to have a really good recipe for an Eastern European (possibly Russian) dark rye bread made with plenty of caraway seeds, and orange juice. I think it also contained treacle and lots of butter. It was truly delicious.

Lost in the mists of time though. I think I got it from BBC Good Food magazine.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 February, 2021, 04:39:07 pm
I used to have a really good recipe for an Eastern European (possibly Russian) dark rye bread made with plenty of caraway seeds, and orange juice. I think it also contained treacle and lots of butter. It was truly delicious.

Lost in the mists of time though. I think I got it from BBC Good Food magazine.
Rye bread with caraway seeds and treacle sounds familiar to me. This certainly isn't the recipe you lost but with a bit of luck it might be similar:
http://truffle-in-a-rum-chocolate.blogspot.com/2016/04/chleb-zytnio-gryczany-z-melasa-i.html
Quote
Chleb żytnio-gryczany, z melasą i kminkiem

Zaczyn:
2 łyżki zakwasu żytniego
160 g wody
100g mąki żytniej razowej
50 g mąki gryczanej

Wszystkie składniki wymieszać, miskę szczelnie przykryć folią i zostawić w temp. pokojowej na 10-12 godz.

Ciasto właściwe:
cały zaczyn
1/3 łyżeczka drożdży instant
2 łyżeczki soli
400 g wody
400 g mąki żytniej razowej
100 g mąki gryczanej
1 łyżeczka nasion kminku (całych, nie mielonych)
1 szczypta mielonej kolendry
1 łyżka dowolnej melasy, słodu, syropu lub ciemnego miodu
2 tablespoons rye starter
160g water
100g wholemeal rye flour
50g buckwheat flour

Mix, leave to rise for 10-12 hours

Dough
whole starter
1/3 teaspoon instant yeast
2 teaspoons salt
400g water
400g wholemeal rye flour
400g buckwheat flour
1 teaspoon whole caraway seeds
a pinch of ground coriander
1 tablespoon treacle or honey etc
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 February, 2021, 05:19:28 pm


I have a 2lb loaf tin. How much flour should I use to make a loaf to go in a 2lb loaf tin. 900g seems... excessive.

J
Title: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 13 February, 2021, 05:22:30 pm


I have a 2lb loaf tin. How much flour should I use to make a loaf to go in a 2lb loaf tin. 900g seems... excessive.

J

For that size tin, I would use 500g flour (with 300g water).

It’s not an exact science but 900g is definitely way too much.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: slope on 13 February, 2021, 05:44:40 pm
I have a 2lb loaf tin. How much flour should I use to make a loaf to go in a 2lb loaf tin. 900g seems... excessive.
J

My 2lb ancient 'Prestige' loaf tins - measure externally: 9¼" x 5¼" x 2¾"

I use 650g total mix of flours + 200g mixed sunflower and pumpkin seeds - and around 400ml water

And that's just lovely :)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 February, 2021, 05:47:05 pm
I have a 2lb loaf tin. How much flour should I use to make a loaf to go in a 2lb loaf tin. 900g seems... excessive.
J

My 2lb ancient 'Prestige' loaf tins - measure externally: 9¼" x 5¼" x 2¾"

I was about to ask "Wtf is that in real units" then realised I did ask about a 2lb loaf tin, so it's kinda my own fault.

I got it on amazon uk back when I could order things from the UK easily. Wish i had got two now...

Quote

I use 650g total mix of flours + 200g mixed sunflower and pumpkin seeds - and around 400ml water

And that's just lovely :)

Need to work this one out. I normally make a pizza, and then use the left over dough to make a loaf. So I need to end up with 500g flour's worth of dough after I've taken the fist size lump for my pizza...

J
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 February, 2021, 06:36:35 pm


What do you all cover your dough with while it proves? Last time so used a ramp tea towel, like I always have done, and when the dough rose enough to touch it, removing the tea towel meant all the gas for let out the dough and I got dwarven battle bread. The dough is in a 900g loaf tin.. 
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 13 February, 2021, 06:40:40 pm


What do you all cover your dough with while it proves? Last time so used a ramp tea towel, like I always have done, and when the dough rose enough to touch it, removing the tea towel meant all the gas for let out the dough and I got dwarven battle bread. The dough is in a 900g loaf tin..
My current recipe has uncovered dough, so not much help.

Have you dried dusting the top of the dough with flour?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 February, 2021, 06:44:01 pm


What do you all cover your dough with while it proves? Last time so used a ramp tea towel, like I always have done, and when the dough rose enough to touch it, removing the tea towel meant all the gas for let out the dough and I got dwarven battle bread. The dough is in a 900g loaf tin..
My current recipe has uncovered dough, so not much help.

Have you dried dusting the top of the dough with flour?

No I haven't. Would that cause issues with the dry flour and damp tea towel?

J
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 13 February, 2021, 06:59:51 pm


What do you all cover your dough with while it proves? Last time so used a ramp tea towel, like I always have done, and when the dough rose enough to touch it, removing the tea towel meant all the gas for let out the dough and I got dwarven battle bread. The dough is in a 900g loaf tin..
My current recipe has uncovered dough, so not much help.

Have you dried dusting the top of the dough with flour?

No I haven't. Would that cause issues with the dry flour and damp tea towel?

J
Hmm. I'd go for a light dusting and a dry tea towel rather than damp.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 February, 2021, 07:15:43 pm

Hmm. I'd go for a light dusting and a dry tea towel rather than damp.

Shall give that a go. Timer just went ping, so time to make the pizza and put the rest of the dough in it's loaf tin.

J
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 13 February, 2021, 08:08:38 pm
I was about to ask "Wtf is that in real units" then realised I did ask about a 2lb loaf tin, so it's kinda my own fault.

It’s a nominal measurement anyway and there will be much variation in capacity between 2lb loaf tins from different manufacturers.

If translating it into metric, you’d call it a 1kg tin rather than 900g.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 13 February, 2021, 08:10:32 pm
Hmm. I'd go for a light dusting and a dry tea towel rather than damp.

+1

Dust with rye flour (low gluten so less sticky) and cover with a dry muslin cloth.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: slope on 13 February, 2021, 09:31:42 pm
I was about to ask "Wtf is that in real units" then realised I did ask about a 2lb loaf tin, so it's kinda my own fault.

It’s a nominal measurement anyway and there will be much variation in capacity between 2lb loaf tins from different manufacturers.

If translating it into metric, you’d call it a 1kg tin rather than 900g.

And I've just filled the "2lb" Pestige tin mentioned above with liquid - it takes 1.4 litres to the brim ;)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 13 February, 2021, 09:37:25 pm
Hmm. I'd go for a light dusting and a dry tea towel rather than damp.

+1

Dust with rye flour (low gluten so less sticky) and cover with a dry muslin cloth.

Rye flour is what I use in the cloth in the banneton when doing sourdough.

When I'm doing bog standard yeasty bread I put it in a giant plastic bag.

When I'm doing the last bit of shaped pizza dough balls in the fridge I use a damp tea towel and nothing else.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 February, 2021, 09:46:50 pm


Well i got a loaf...

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuIwZ53XAAIpiiH.jpg)

It didn't rise as much as I expected before it went in the oven. But did spring nicely. I'm realising i forgot to score the top, hence the split along the sides. Will give it a few mins before I slice it to see how good it is...


Oh and the pizza I made was ok. Not my finest. But tasty and filling.

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuIfbHPXUAMuRen.jpg)


J
Title: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 13 February, 2021, 10:47:28 pm
When I'm doing bog standard yeasty bread I put it in a giant plastic bag.

I need to get some of those. They were very prominent in the last series of Bake Off.

Do you oil it or just leave it au naturel?

I used to use cling film but obviously that’s not the done thing these days. I’ve also tried those beeswax paper sheets but feel there’s no real advantage to those over using a cloth.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 13 February, 2021, 11:50:12 pm
My bog standard bread I make in a silicone loaf 'tin'. I give it a bit of a wipe with fat before putting the dough in and then I put that in a big plastic bag, something like this https://www.lakeland.co.uk/1022/100-Gusseted-Freezeasy-Food-Freezer-Bags-28-x-41cm which I tie at the top for the 2nd proof.
I store it in the same bag after baking.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 14 February, 2021, 07:29:39 pm
Tragic hipster bread made using the stretchy-fold method and baked on my of-so-heavy lump of mild steel. Very very pleased with this one.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/iMMMg9ljwfm0ZD-VdtLEndSqvVSBly66Vrea2gsUccQJzGdwUpX-x9RE8DhbpNGo6C7p7kFpjYb_EL2J-i9PnvCCLcIeUNuMWMmHdOe3qRf3VcIxTjT0ZuFtuIe_3-_gRwUVQbvSZfc=w2400)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 14 February, 2021, 08:05:06 pm
I love the message on your lame.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ginger Cat on 14 February, 2021, 09:21:58 pm


What do you all cover your dough with while it proves? Last time so used a ramp tea towel, like I always have done, and when the dough rose enough to touch it, removing the tea towel meant all the gas for let out the dough and I got dwarven battle bread. The dough is in a 900g loaf tin..

Showercap.

GC
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Polar Bear on 14 February, 2021, 09:46:32 pm
In a bizarre twist we did a breadmaking course which started in January last year.  Since then I have been baking sourdough, baguettes, focaccia and bloomers as well as NOT cross buns (I really cannot be arsed with the pointless decorative cross), madeira cake, lemon drizzle cake and stollen.

Even more bizarre is that we have two proper bakers locally from whom we have bought quality bread and cake for years.  Just fancied doing my own.

The course we did was run by one of the two local bakers and he has been supplying me with various flours for my baking throughout.



What do you all cover your dough with while it proves? Last time so used a ramp tea towel, like I always have done, and when the dough rose enough to touch it, removing the tea towel meant all the gas for let out the dough and I got dwarven battle bread. The dough is in a 900g loaf tin..
My current recipe has uncovered dough, so not much help.

Have you dried dusting the top of the dough with flour?

No I haven't. Would that cause issues with the dry flour and damp tea towel?

J
Hmm. I'd go for a light dusting and a dry tea towel rather than damp.

I use a dirt cheap clear plastic shower cap.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 15 February, 2021, 08:07:03 am
I’m wondering what I’m missing now. I don’t think I’ve seen a recipe that talks about plastic bags. The first rise, for me, happens in the mixing bowl I used for mixing.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 15 February, 2021, 09:20:08 am
I’m wondering what I’m missing now. I don’t think I’ve seen a recipe that talks about plastic bags. The first rise, for me, happens in the mixing bowl I used for mixing.

'Proving bags' seem to be a thing now. They were all using them in the last series of Bake Off. I've never seen one mentioned in a recipe, but you'd use it in place of a sheet of clingfilm or whatever else you use to cover the dough during proving - just slip the whole tin/tray inside the bag.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: nicknack on 15 February, 2021, 09:29:25 am
In the days before the bread machine I used to use a standard supermarket plastic bag.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 16 February, 2021, 01:06:51 pm
I love the message on your lame.
It is one of my Best Things.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 23 February, 2021, 12:44:48 pm
Sourdough is better in winter...

(https://i.ibb.co/jvt8jGX/20210223-105900.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wNtd2Cm)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 10 March, 2021, 07:31:41 pm
Using old fast action yeast, by old october 2019, and it is proving in a pot of water to see if it comes to life.


Two sachets so far and it isn't that lively...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 11 March, 2021, 05:00:19 pm
No, unlikely to revive. I seem to recall its max life is about 6 months.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 11 March, 2021, 05:14:12 pm
The sachets last a lot longer than the tins of loose yeast - I find the tins don't last very long at all once opened, as little as a week or two.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 11 March, 2021, 06:15:18 pm
The sachets last a lot longer than the tins of loose yeast - I find the tins don't last very long at all once opened, as little as a week or two.

Do you keep the tins in the fridge after opening? I didn't for ages, until I read the small print on the side - my instant yeast seems to stay viable for a couple of months that way.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 11 March, 2021, 06:17:56 pm
The sachets last a lot longer than the tins of loose yeast - I find the tins don't last very long at all once opened, as little as a week or two.

Do you keep the tins in the fridge after opening? I didn't for ages, until I read the small print on the side - my instant yeast seems to stay viable for a couple of months that way.

Never occurred to me. Thanks for the tip!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: offcumden on 11 March, 2021, 06:27:00 pm

Do you keep the tins in the fridge after opening? I didn't for ages, until I read the small print on the side - my instant yeast seems to stay viable for a couple of months that way.

Works for me, too. At least a couple of months, at a guess.
(next time I open a tin I will try and remember to write the date on it)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: JonBuoy on 11 March, 2021, 08:53:19 pm
A couple of weeks ago I opened a tin of yeast with 'BBE 10/2020' printed on it that I had mislaid in my food storage facility  ::-)

It has lived in the fridge since opening (as usual) and seems absolutely fine.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 14 March, 2021, 12:00:19 pm
I find that the tinned dried yeast gradually loses its efficacy. The Panasonic recipe for a 400g loaf suggests ½ teaspoon full of yeast. That's fine straight after the vacuum seal has been broken but it takes me a while to finish one of those tins. By the time I get to the last quarter, I'm upping the quantity to 3/4 a spoonful.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 14 March, 2021, 02:00:10 pm
Most of my bread is sourdough, so I don’t use baker’s yeast often enough to get through a tin before it goes off, hence I tend to use sachets instead. But we do have a tin that has been sitting unopened in the cupboard for several months, and this discussion has inspired me to actually use it, so I made a couple of loaves the other day. Turned out fine.

And based on the principle that it’s better to use up the tin quickly once opened, this morning I made a batch of cinnamon buns and toffee & almond buns. For these, the recipe specifies 50g fresh yeast, so I converted that to 20g dried yeast. Probably could have done with a bit more, tbh - the dough did rise, but not as quickly as I would expect.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 15 March, 2021, 10:22:46 pm
Iffen I could work out how to embed video I could treat you to a time lapse of paint drying my latest loaf in all its oven springy goodness. But I can't. Count yourselves lucky.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Bolt on 15 March, 2021, 11:14:49 pm
Tragic hipster bread made using the stretchy-fold method and baked on my of-so-heavy lump of mild steel. Very very pleased with this one.

What's the consensus on the benefits of the Frenchy stretchy-fold method of kneading versus the more conventional heal of hand/knuckle roll fold and turn approach?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 20 March, 2021, 03:59:16 pm
So does the tinned yeast live in the fridge even when upopened?

Have I mentioned my banneton?

(https://i.imgur.com/zM9ZgMC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gW74yf5.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Gattopardo on 20 March, 2021, 04:11:18 pm
Today is my bread mix of a few flours (pan cereales, allison seeded flour and pan campagne)

Some in the heavily floured and semolina banneton, which will be baked on a pizza stone
(https://i.imgur.com/yNiNxLT.jpg)

Dough in a kenwood stainless steel bowl to be baked in a le creuset enamel coated casserole dish.
(https://i.imgur.com/IQrBdPZ.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 20 March, 2021, 04:17:12 pm
Tragic hipster bread made using the stretchy-fold method and baked on my of-so-heavy lump of mild steel. Very very pleased with this one.

What's the consensus on the benefits of the Frenchy stretchy-fold method of kneading versus the more conventional heal of hand/knuckle roll fold and turn approach?
I'm getting much better results*  doing stretchy fold than I was doing kneading. There's strange time dilation thing that seems to happen during kneading, when 10 minutes last for hours. Currently I'm using the ever so cheerful Bake With Jack's recipe and method. However as this has several changes compared to my previous recipe, I'm not sure whether it's the change to stretchy/fold or some other change (overmight fridge rest for example), or a combination of these that is responsible.

* not today. The bread stuck slightly to the peel as I shimmied it into the oven, so it's a bit of an odd shape.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jakob W on 20 March, 2021, 04:29:49 pm
So does the tinned yeast live in the fridge even when upopened?

Check the packaging, but all the ones I've ever used just say to keep in the fridge once opened, which works for me.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 08 May, 2021, 12:54:31 pm
I seem to have become a disciple of Ken Forkish.
His book "Flour Water Salt Yeast" is not so much a recipe book, more a course in bread-making.
This is my fourth effort, and they have all worked well.

This is an overnight bulk-fermented 78% hydrated loaf.
The slow ferment brings out a lot of flavour.
This is a much wetter dough than I've previously worked with.

The dough is autolysed, meaning the water is absorbed into the flour 30 mins before adding the salt and yeast.
This dough is a 'straight' dough, using dried yeast: all of 0.4g of it!
I have bought a drug-dealer milligram scales to measure this!

The mixing is all the stretch-and-fold method.
After the mixing, this dough has 3 foldings within the first 2 hours of the bulk ferment, to develop the structure.
Next morning, the dough is then shaped and dragged, tightening it into a ball before placing it in a Banneton for the final proof of just over an hour.
The dough is tipped out of the Banneton, so it's now seam-side up. This is how it will be baked.
It's scooped up and placed in the pre-heated Dutch Oven, and baked for 30 mins with the lid on, then a further 20 mins with the lid off.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51165151481_49ba921743_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kXhLYa)
Bread (https://flic.kr/p/2kXhLYa) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51165932559_737b234ded_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kXmMa2)
Bread (https://flic.kr/p/2kXmMa2) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 08 May, 2021, 02:21:29 pm
Very nice. You've not tried making bread in that pizza oven of yours yet?
I'm too chicken to try the Dutch oven for fear of burning myself on it. Maybe I could do it upside down using the pizza steel as a base and the pan as a cloche.

Not that I have been doing much fancy breadmaking due to DIY getting in the way.  :-\
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 08 May, 2021, 03:04:57 pm
The pizza oven is too hot and temperature un-controlled for a loaf, I think.
It needs to be a modest 245 degC and stable for about 45 minutes for a loaf.

For pizza, it runs with a center floor temperature of 350 - 380 degrees with a fair temperature gradient front to back.
The temperature is not so critical as you can see the pizza, and rotate it and move it around as required.
It only needs to be temperature stable-ish for a few minutes.

But the entire purpose of this exercise is to learn to make decent dough for pizza bases.
The 'basic' dough I've been using up to now is ok, but I'm wanting to do something better.

So yes, a proper overnight fermented pizza dough is very much on the cards.
Was going to be today, but the weather's too carp.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 10 May, 2021, 08:30:20 pm
And so it was that I made pizza with proper dough.
This is a 70% hydrated overnight bulk fermented dough, the 1kg dough divided into 5 balls then shaped first thing in the morning, then proofed for about 10 hours in the fridge till early evening when they were cooked.
The dough is hand-stretched directly from the fridge for easier handling.

This is a world away from the 'basic' dough you will find in most books, which I've been using up till now.
The dough is soft and gassy. You must handle it with care, it cannot be rolled or man-handled because that will de-gas it.
Gentle hand-stretching is both necessary and easy: the dough lends itself to this.

Cooked on a gently falling oven with a base temperature of 350 - 380 degrees, goodness only knows what air temperature.

The next dough will be a biga pre-ferment, I think.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51170657696_af7ddb9014_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kXLZLU)
Pizza (https://flic.kr/p/2kXLZLU) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51171444219_8a571e80c4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kXR2zD)
Pizza (https://flic.kr/p/2kXR2zD) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51170888898_585d3f4bf0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kXNbv9)
Pizza (https://flic.kr/p/2kXNbv9) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 10 May, 2021, 08:52:31 pm
But how does it taste?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 10 May, 2021, 10:24:06 pm
Oh, it's a world away from the simple doughs I've used before.
A step change; as good as I've had anywhere.
The long ferment gives the dough a great flavour.
Which I could not have said before.

The wood-fired oven is only one part of the equation.
Getting the dough right is the second.

And I don't think we're done here.
There's more dough-fettling to be done!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 11 May, 2021, 06:08:41 am
I use fresh yeast, and mix up a slurry using 50% of the flour. Leave for 45 minutes. Then add rest of flour (including 10% semolina flour), Rise for an hour or so. Then shape into balls and prove for about 6 hours. Beautiful yeasty flavour.

I have tried using my sourdough, but too much faff vs advantage.  Be interested to continue to hear of your experiments though. 
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 May, 2021, 08:45:10 pm

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1SibutXMAA-Rpv?format=jpg&name=large)

Had left over dough from making pizza...

J
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ashaman42 on 14 May, 2021, 09:41:36 am
I've switched this week to using my sourdough pizza recipe for bread as well as it's coming out better than the bread recipe I was using.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: neilrj on 14 May, 2021, 07:14:00 pm
I've switched this week to using my sourdough pizza recipe for bread as well as it's coming out better than the bread recipe I was using.

To save trawling to see if it's already here (lazy I know) can you (re)post please?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ashaman42 on 14 May, 2021, 08:15:36 pm
Sure. I don't think I posted it so you've saved yourself a trawl.

Huh, I've just looked up the recipe to check something and I'm not even following the recipe I thought I was. Anyway, whatever I'm doing works.

227g sourdough starter
113g water
298g plain flour
A teaspoon or so of salt - I don't really measure just do a "so long" pour from the salt container.

And then for pizza or savoury bread I do a good glug of garlic olive oil and a decent shake (a tablespoon or two) of Italian seasoning. For bread that's likely to have choc spread or such I omit the seasoning and use plain veggie oil instead.

What I normally do is mix it up the evening before pizza/bread. Give it a couple minutes in the stand mixer. Sometimes it comes together into a nice ball of dough and other times it tends to stick to the bowl. I haven't yet worked out what I'm doing differently.

Pop some clingfilm on the top of the bowl and into the fridge overnight. Then either in the morning (for bread for lunch) or at about 3pm (for pizzas at ~6/7pm) it comes out of the fridge and sits next to the armchair by the radiator.

Oven on to about 230° C and whilst it's heating I turn the dough out onto a baking sheet with baking paper on it. Normally needs a bit of help out of the bowl whilst trying not to squish the air bubbles out too much.

For bread I just tease it into a vaguely loaf shape and cut a couple slashs (which still don't manage to stop it splitting elsewhere) and for pizza I split the dough into two and each half gets a tray. I press/push/massage it out into a ovally blob. Tends to stick to the paper so I don't try lifting and stretching.

Bread gets 20 minutes on the tray and then comes off the tray onto the bare oven rack for a further ten. Then onto a cooling rack for as long as we can manage before tucking in.

Pizzas get all the toppings popped on and then it varies but normally about 7-8 minutes before they get swapped from top shelf to middle and vice versa. And another 7-8 minutes. Depends a bit on how many toppings and vagaries of the dough.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 15 May, 2021, 09:11:40 pm
So the pizza dough experiments continue.
Tonight's dough is a poolish pre-ferment recipe, again from the Ken Forkish book 'Flour Water Salt Yeast'.

A poolish is where you take around 50% of the flour, add the same weight of water to make a 100% hydrated partial dough ( which is pretty much liquid ), add the yeast, and let it ferment overnight.
The following morning, the poolish will have doubled or tripled in size, and will be like a hideous living gloop, frothing and bubbling like a creature from the deep.

The final dough mix is then made, with the remaining flour and the salt, and the remaining water added to make up the hydration you want.  I went with 72%, because 75% can be tricksy to handle when hand-stretching.  I might go to 75% next time.

The poolish is poured into the bowl with the remaining flour etc, and worked into a mix.  It's then left to bulk ferment for around 6 hours, till late afternoon.  Plenty of time to go for a bike ride.
Then, it's divided into 5, shaped, and left in the fridge to retard for a couple of hours before hand-stretching and cooking.

It's amazing that 0.4g of yeast can be used to leaven 1kg of dough, enough for 5 pizzas!

It's probably the best flavoured pizza dough I've done to date.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51180283077_f85ca54b47_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kYCk4K)
Freshly mixed poolish ready for overnight ferment (https://flic.kr/p/2kYCk4K) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51181759659_81f034ce9b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kYKU14)
Fire in the Hole! (https://flic.kr/p/2kYKU14) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51181759879_c41b009174_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kYKU4R)
Poolish pizza (https://flic.kr/p/2kYKU4R) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr
Title: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 02 June, 2021, 05:07:44 pm
Bit of a late response but that pizza looks fantastic!

Also reminds me that Aldi’s special this week is a home-build bread oven kit (£500). Tempted but I could probably design my own for that price.

Anyway, I came here to talk about yeast. Specifically, Borwick’s yeast, as sold in M&S. My son bought a couple of packs last week. 5x 6g sachets per pack I made a couple of loaves using it, but only one sachet for the double quantity (about 900g flour, iirc) because I didn’t want it to ferment too quickly. And I left out to prove on top of the fridge, rather than in the proving drawer...

Within an hour it had somewhat more than doubled in size...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 07 June, 2021, 09:51:36 pm
Having found a winning formula (for me), obviously I decided to dick around with it.

I'm using the no kneading but lots of folding technique from Bake With Jack. Baking is in a fan oven with a tray of boiling water in the bottom, bread on a thick steel plate. Start at 230C fan for 15 minutes, down to 190C fan for 20-25 minutes. Good results, open crumb.

Things that could do with improvement are the uneven size, end to end (slightly bigger at the fan end of the oven) and unlike Noddy's mate, my loaf has a small ear.

Having had some success when baking pork pies in a conventionally heated, rather than fan assisted, oven, I tried my last loaf like that. Slightly higher temperature (240C) than before for the first 15 minutes then 190. Looks good-ish but it's slightly more compact loaf - smaller bubbles. Ear development is pretty non existent as it didn't really split that much.

Comments?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: slowfen on 27 June, 2021, 12:57:20 pm
Have attempted butteries.

Can certainly see layers, has a raodkill croissent look.

Just need to de grease base of oven :-\

They do taste good
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 08 July, 2021, 06:55:54 pm
Have attempted butteries.

Can certainly see layers, has a raodkill croissent look.

Just need to de grease base of oven :-\

They do taste good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxdIZ9IeRuk
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 27 July, 2021, 01:02:00 pm
The last two sourdough loaves I've baked have been misshapen, spread out affairs. 
It's been a lot warmer of late, so I've reduced the proving time, by about half an hour from five to four and a half. Other than that no change from the Bake With Jack procedure and hydration.  Before these two failures, I'd had good shaped loaves on the reduced proving time regime.

It's looks to me like the dough lacks "structure". Can over proving cause this?

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 27 July, 2021, 01:45:16 pm
It's looks to me like the dough lacks "structure". Can over proving cause this?

Yes, very much so. If you want to slow it down, try reducing how much starter you use, and/or put it in the fridge to prove. Or just keep an eye on it and bake it "when it's ready", rather than after a set time.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Slave To The Viking on 15 November, 2021, 12:43:01 am
Made a "use up some dregs of bags of flour" loaf for dunking in a "use up some veg" soup, and was pleased with the way it was proving, having been idly improvising the quantities. Hadn't got a peel to hand (bits of wood wander off and get used for other things), so sat it on some parchment on a baking sheet, then slid it off onto the heated stone in the oven, which I've done hundreds of times. Only this time, it sailed slowly, gracefully, as if on a cushion of air (for 't'was, I s'pose) off the back of the shelf, down the back of the oven, into the flames.

Having sworn loudly and inventively, I yanked out the heated pan from the base of the oven, dragged the dough out and lobbed it onto the stone, replaced the pan and emptied the kettle onto it, closed the door, swore a lot more and threw my oven gloves at a sack of spuds on the other side of the kitchen.

Other than showing signs of having been dragged through the really-should-clean-that-up bits of roast dinner spatter on the floor of the oven, it came out brilliantly.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, but bread's chuffing magic.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 19 November, 2021, 08:17:58 pm
I had cheese on toast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza) for dinner tonight. It was truly marvellous.

Don't know why it turned out quite so well - I don't think I did anything different to usual, no special recipe or ingredients, but the dough was beautifully well developed, strong and stretchy but ever so soft and silky too, and it came out of the oven perfectly light and crisp, and just chewy enough to provide a pleasing amount of tooth-resistance.

You'll have to take my word for it though, because I scoffed the lot before even thinking about taking pictures. Old school.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 November, 2021, 10:51:54 am
Do you make toast from fresh bread? I always think that is sacrilege, and that a loaf has to be at least a day old before I will consider toasting it.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 20 November, 2021, 11:10:15 am
I always wince a bit when the children toast the bread that's fresh out of the machine.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 20 November, 2021, 12:54:33 pm
Do you make toast from fresh bread? I always think that is sacrilege, and that a loaf has to be at least a day old before I will consider toasting it.

To clarify, last night’s dinner was the Italian style cheese on toast - excuse my whimsicality.

But anyway, I’m not precious about what I use to make toast. If it’s toast I want, it’s toast I shall have, whether the bread is fresh or a few days old.

I have noticed, however, that very fresh bread doesn’t toast well - it can go a bit claggy.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 20 November, 2021, 05:15:17 pm
I made some seeded dark rye bread last weekend. “Dwarf bread” as Mrs Dan calls it. I put some in the toaster yesterday and that was rather nice.
I agree that properly fresh bread doesn’t toast as well.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Slave To The Viking on 20 November, 2021, 10:56:08 pm
I’m not precious about what I use to make toast. If it’s toast I want, it’s toast I shall have, whether the bread is fresh or a few days old.
.

Absolutely. Toast is not to be foregone.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 29 November, 2021, 12:07:53 pm
A bit of a departure today, a straight 40% wholemeal loaf.
This is a 'straight' dough, ie yeast-leavened rather than a levain-based sourdough.
Main reason was it takes me a couple of days to revive my levain out of the fridge, and I wanted something quicker.
So this is an overnight low-yeast content (1.5g of dried yeast in 500g of flour) ferment.

It's 40% wholemeal flour, which would normally be considered quite high.
There's a risk of baking bricks rather than loaves.
But with the right hydration, it's actually light, with a good mouth feel and a decent wholemeal flavour.

It's 80% hydrated, which sounds very high. More than 78% would certainly be difficult to work with using just regular strong white. It would be a bit like working with blancmange. But the wholemeal absorbs more water than strong white, and the 80% hydration gave a surprisingly stiff dough considering, and with good structure.

I'll do this one again.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51711921917_b01ba4908b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mMB7LD)
40% wholemeal (https://flic.kr/p/2mMB7LD) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 29 November, 2021, 12:30:16 pm
Looks yummy.
Maybe if I get sufficiently bored over xmas I might try making some 'different to the every day' bread even though I've been waiting until we're shot of the crap oven. I have never been very happy with my attempts at yeasted wholemeal before now, might take a leaf out of your book.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 29 November, 2021, 12:50:33 pm
Looks great, Feanor.

My sourdough starter is in hibernation at the moment - have tried to revive it a couple of times but keep getting distracted and forgetting about it. So all my bread lately has been made with bog-standard fast action yeast. I do tend to lower the dose - ie use one sachet for a two-loaf batch - to slow down the fermentation. It does seem to make for better flavour.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 27 December, 2021, 05:44:19 pm
I think I might have made the same recipe as Feanor, mainly because it was the first similar looking Forkish recipe I could find on the internets https://food52.com/recipes/83036-overnight-40-percent-whole-wheat-bread-recipe

No fancy pattern as I don't have a round banneton so I improvised with a tea towel in a bowl, and the boule looks like a brioche as I didn't trust myself to get the dough in the dutch oven without burning myself so I used a super thin silicone sheet which of course folded and left those crease marks.
But I'm pleased with it as a first attempt and it tastes pretty damn good.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51778110582_ecc26596fd.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mTsmmw)2021-12-27_04-02-03 (https://flic.kr/p/2mTsmmw) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51778111102_8bd5a13052.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mTsmvu)2021-12-27_04-02-15 (https://flic.kr/p/2mTsmvu) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

I've got to admit I never normally bother with autolyse or adding salt but I may try that with my usual bread now and see what difference it makes.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 27 December, 2021, 06:09:23 pm
Yes, that's the same recipe from the same book.
Looks like it's worked well.

It's a good all-purpose bread, lasts well and makes good toast, without any levain faff.

Looks nom.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 27 December, 2021, 06:52:49 pm
Thanks for the tip, I was impressed.
How do you get yours in a dutch oven (if that's what you used), any tips?

This is probably about where I regret giving the huge oval one we had to the charity shop during the great purge.... having said that I think if I'd baked it in that it might have been naan bread shaped.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 27 December, 2021, 07:06:14 pm
I scoop the shaped loaf up from the worktop fairly sharpish after couping it out of the banneton, because most of the more highly hydrated doughs will start to spread out and become difficult to handle.

I scoop with closed fingers to avoid the dough starting to droop between my fingers.

Then, I lower it as far as I dare into the dutch oven, and essentially drop it the remaining distance.
I might give the oven a wee shoogle to straighten it out a bit.
The whole process needs to be done quickly, and I've found it's remarkably tolerant of minor fuckups.
If the dough has enough structure, the small drop does not seem to de-gas it in the slightest.

To get the structure, I'd say do the folds in the recipe properly, and then when shaping the loaves, do the stretchy-dragging thing enough that the dough ball holds a good shape before dumping it in the banneton.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 01 January, 2022, 05:55:00 pm
Panettone... it's a kind of bread, right?

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51792985835_d6250a141c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mULAfp)
Panettone (https://flic.kr/p/2mULAfp) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51792622669_c2458773b9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mUJJhV)
Panettone (https://flic.kr/p/2mUJJhV) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

Would have liked a bit more rise but I'm very happy with how it has turned out. Tastes amazing. I even went to the trouble of making my own candied peel - made using the most beautifully fragrant lemons, found in Lidl, of all places.

Making it is a loooong process - several stages of mixing and kneading, and two very long proving periods, not to mention the initial building up of the lievito over the course of a few days before I even started on the panettone. Worth the effort though!

The basic dough, made with lots of eggs, butter and sugar:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51792622639_cddf4c385e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mUJJhp)
Panettone (https://flic.kr/p/2mUJJhp) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

After a long prove, this is augmented with more flour, more eggs, more butter, more sugar, vanilla, arome panettone, and honey, then vigorously worked until the sticky mess becomes a coherent, smooth dough. This is then shaped and placed in the pirottini (paper case) and left for another long prove:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51792622509_5c0616539f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mUJJfa)
Panettone (https://flic.kr/p/2mUJJfa) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

15 hours later:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51792622654_3e5aa0750e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mUJJhE)
Panettone (https://flic.kr/p/2mUJJhE) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

I could have left it longer but was getting bored of waiting by this stage, plus I was worried it might over-prove and collapse so decided to bung it in the oven. Once it's cooked, you then have to leave it hanging upside down for at least four hours to cool - if you omit the hanging upside down bit, it can't support its own weight and will collapse, apparently.

This is the recipe I used: Proper Panettone by James Morton (https://thehappyfoodie.co.uk/recipes/proper-panettone/)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 01 January, 2022, 06:11:29 pm
Ooh! That looks good!

I'll sqrl the recipe away for another day. Yes, it looks a bit faffy but I don't mind that.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 01 January, 2022, 06:19:22 pm
Mmm that does look good citoyen!

In other news, I tried the Forkish recipe but using my everyday bread flour which is this:
https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/sainsburys-wholegrain-seeded-flour--taste-the-difference-1kg

It sort of worked but now that I'm in the middle of the loaf there's a sticky almost undercooked bit right at the bottom of the loaf. I also hadn't realised there was sugar in that mix before.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 01 January, 2022, 09:42:27 pm
With Ken's recipes, I stick to the specific flours he specifies, because they all absorb different quantities of water and so the hydration needs adjusted if you substitute other flours.

So for that recipe, it's straightforward Strong White, and straightforward Wholemeal flour.

Ken does suggest you can vary this, but notes that you will need to alter the hydration.
I've not had the confidence to go off-piste with his recipes yet!

Do you think the problem was just the sugar content?
The other thing to check: is your oven getting up to the right temperature? I think you mentioned having an oven thermometer. 245C is quite hot. I seem to remember you were not too happy with the oven. The Dutch Oven needs to be fully heat-saturated, and I follow his 45-minute advice in step 7.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 01 January, 2022, 10:35:01 pm
I did check the oven temperature for the first loaf and it was bang on. I was somewhat worried there would be too much water for that flour but it seemed ok. One thing I have noted is that a lot of std WM flour recipes use fat, which I usually add to this flour in the form of walnut oil and I usually add some vitamin c as well which I didn't this time. I don't really know what the problem was, too many variables really.
Overall, it was just an experiment for shits and giggles, it wasn't a total disaster, and it was better than the usual quick proof version by miles, even with the slightly sticky bottom.
I can either let that flour down with some strong white or try seeing what difference adding vitamin c might make.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 10 January, 2022, 04:38:21 pm
Update on my experiments of the Forkish recipe. After my gummy bottom from the 100% Sainbo's malted flour I decided to try going back to the 60% (not a bakers percentage) strong white and using the malted flour instead of wholemeal. Still got a gummy bottom..
So then wondering if it was just me I went back to the original strong white/wholemeal recipe, and it was fine.
Now trying to figure out a way of getting rid of this Sainsbo's flour (sadly I have a massive stash of it) but don't want to go back to the original bread I made from it. Will have to see if just adding 20% of the malted flour still results in a gummy bottom.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 10 January, 2022, 05:06:32 pm
That looks like a good strong flour, how are you kneading? with an 80% hydration, you might be struggling to knead properly - maybe it needs longer knead? Might be worth an experiment starting the knead with a 70% an add the last 10% after?

Rather than use malted flour, I add malt to the dough all the time and never have issues although I never go over 75% for wholemeal. My daily loaf is a mix of wholemeal, spelt (15%) and rye (5-10%) which works best at 65%.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 10 January, 2022, 05:41:33 pm
The Forkish recipies are all stretchy-foldy, not traditional kneading as you might understand the term.
You really don't want to be rough with these doughs.
I've not found any experimentation to be required: he spent years doing that so we don't have to!

It's interesting to note how the different flour blends are playing out.
I will continue to follow this!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 10 January, 2022, 06:21:15 pm
Science isn't dull!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Beardy on 12 January, 2022, 03:23:22 pm
Has anyone used a Dutch Bread Oven or Bread Pan of any kind? Isn’t worth getting or will any old ovenproof cooking pot do just as well? I’m sorry if you’ve discussed it before.  O:-)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 12 January, 2022, 05:03:50 pm
Yes. I use a Lodge brand Dutch oven.
But yes, it's just a big heavy cast iron pot.
Im sure any big heavy cast iron pot would be fine.

Needs to be big enough diameter for your loaf, and high enough to accomodate the rise.
Also, lack of long handles to allow it to fit in the oven!
Mine is about 250mm in diameter, and almost straight sided, ie diameter at the base is similar to the top.
It's about 160mm high, with its lid on.
It weighs around 6.5 kg.

I'd not want to go any smaller, it suits the size of the dough coming out of the banneton.

The large thermal mass makes for a stable baking temperature.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 12 January, 2022, 05:49:47 pm
I've got a 'Vogue' one which I think came from Nisbets. I do have a smaller Le Crueset one but I don't think it would be quite big enough. Even Sainsbos sells the cast iron dutch oven thingys these days though.
I did have a brief pang of regret at getting rid of the massive oval one we had in the great purge last year until I realised I'd probably struggle to lift the thing these days...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 12 January, 2022, 05:55:24 pm
I was given a Lodge Cast Iron Combo Cooker for Christmas, which is rather good. The best thing about it is that you can use the lid as a base and the pan as a cloche, so you don't have the issue of how to drop your bread into a searing hot pan.
https://www.lodgecastiron.com/product/cast-iron-combo-cooker?sku=LCC3

I haven't learned how to get best results from it yet - still experimenting with temperatures and cooking times. But as Feanor says, it retains heat very well so you don't get a big temperature drop when you open the oven to put the bread in.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 13 January, 2022, 08:42:52 am
Here's a photo of some Dutch Oven action this morning:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51818468530_3f8cba2609_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mX2cnd)
Dutch Oven (https://flic.kr/p/2mX2cnd) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

The Forkish baking method has you pre-heat the Dutch Oven to 245C for 45 mins.
Then put the loaf in, and bake lid-on for 30 mins.
Then lid-off for around 20 mins.

This photo was taken just as I removed the lid at 30 mins.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Beardy on 13 January, 2022, 09:31:01 am
I used a large le creuset iron pot we have which seems to have worked well for half the dough I made last night. I’m not sure about the baking times though because it has come out quite brown. The recipe I used said 20 mins lid on and 40 mins lid off, all at 200*C oven pre-heated to 230*C beforehand.

My loaf also lacks the fancy lines because I don’t have any baskets to do the second proving. I may look at investing in some today.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 13 January, 2022, 10:30:03 am
The Forkish baking method has you pre-heat the Dutch Oven to 245C for 45 mins.
Then put the loaf in, and bake lid-on for 30 mins.
Then lid-off for around 20 mins.

Interesting. I've been mostly happy with the results from the dutch oven so far, but I've not been getting the big rise I was anticipating. Sounds like I need to crank the heat right up and leave the pan to preheat for longer.

I've got one baking right now that went in at 220 - shame I didn't see this post earlier... will try a higher temp with the next one.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 13 January, 2022, 10:32:24 am
My loaf also lacks the fancy lines because I don’t have any baskets to do the second proving. I may look at investing in some today.

I wouldn't worry about it. Lately, I've been using my bannetons with a liner to ensure the dough doesn't stick, so I've not got the fancy lines either. I've also been making smaller loaves using a mixing bowl lined with a muslin cloth - I need to invest in some smaller bannetons.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 13 January, 2022, 10:50:59 am
My loaf also lacks the fancy lines because I don’t have any baskets to do the second proving. I may look at investing in some today.

I have some un-asked for advice re bannetons...

If your dough is quite sticky (higher hydration, perhaps some rye flour in the mix, etc) then it can stick to the banneton and be difficult to plop it out for transferring to the Dutch Oven.
When you come to tip it out, you might find you need to grope your hand up between the dough and the banneton, and tease it out gently ( to avoid de-gassing the dough).
This will totally destroy the pretty banneton marks, but is otherwise cosmetic in my experience.
Assuming you have not over-manhandled the dough, it will actually bake fine, and rise as expected.

The cure for this is all down to how you flour the banneton:
Firstly, and I can't over-emphasise this, is to use a 50/50 mix of white rice flour and plain flour to flour the banneton. The rice flour does some actual magic and prevents sticking.

Secondly, use more flour than you think reasonable, and work it in very firmly. I tip the banneton on to it's side, and work around the banneton perhaps 3 or 4 times, pressing the flour mix as firmly as I can into 'cracks' between the weave. I don't want to see any un-floured gaps in the spiral. The upper sides of the banneton are quite vertical, and the flour will initially want to fall out when the banneton is sitting in it's normal orientation. Persevere. Add more flour, and continue pressing it in, until you can *gently* invert the banneton to empty any excess loose flour from the bottom, but the side walls remain floured. Do not 'dunt' the inverted banneton to remove excess flour: this will dislodge the stuff you want to remain. The banneton will hold the flour better after several uses.

After use, I *will* give it a gentle dunt to remove loose flour, and will leave it in the airing cupboard to fully dry overnight.
If you have had a sticky incident, dry it out and fully scrape any stuck dough out of the weave using a teaspoon handle or whatever. Residual dough in the weave can create a sticky point.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 13 January, 2022, 11:43:07 am
Also helps to "season" a new banneton before use - wet it and dust liberally with flour, leave to dry, shake out excess flour, and repeat the process a couple of times.

I use white rye flour but rice flour is probably better. You want something low in/free of gluten.

The reason I've been using liners is mostly because I'm too lazy to look after my bannetons properly. I'm not concerned with the bread looking pretty, I just want something to put my poached egg on for breakfast.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 13 January, 2022, 01:16:40 pm
This morning's loaf - 100% white flour, ~65% hydration. Great flavour and texture, but could have done with a bit more lift:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51818059941_2e3168a8be_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mWZ6Uz)
Sourdough (https://flic.kr/p/2mWZ6Uz) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51818399534_b2c2b9830a_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mX1QRC)
Sourdough (https://flic.kr/p/2mX1QRC) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Beardy on 13 January, 2022, 01:26:07 pm
I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets flatter loaves :)

when you say 65% hydration, do you mean 35% dry and 65% wet ingredients? is that by weight or volume?

However, its been a while since I did any baking, and we've discovered a problem. the loaf i baked this morning is now all but gone and the other half of the dough is about to be baked into second loaf.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 13 January, 2022, 01:44:51 pm
when you say 65% hydration, do you mean 35% dry and 65% wet ingredients? is that by weight or volume?

No - liquid content as a percentage of the total flour weight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_percentage

So, eg, 500g flour would need 325g water for 65% hydration.

It gets confusing with sourdough because the starter contains water - some people include that in the calculation, some don't (I do).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 13 January, 2022, 02:27:33 pm
It gets confusing with sourdough because the starter contains water - some people include that in the calculation, some don't (I do).

I do, because Ken Forkish does.
Here's a photo of the Percentage table for the usual sourdough I make.

@Beardy: We always work with weight, not volume. Water is weighed rather than using a measuring jug, because you just can't get the accuracy with a jug. With weight, I'm working to a tolerance of a couple of grams. You just can't do that in a measuring jug by volume.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51817186892_16549f6095_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mWUCo1)
Bakers Percentages (https://flic.kr/p/2mWUCo1) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

The Levain starter is really quite wet. It's a mixture of wholemeal and plain, with water.
In this table, you can see that the 216g of levain contains 120g of flour, and 96g of water ( the equivalent if 80% ).
This is added to the Final Dough Mix to give the Total Recipe Quantity, to give a total flour weight of 1000g, with 780g of water, to give a final hydration of 78%.

Your loaf looks pretty good to me, btw.


Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 13 January, 2022, 09:17:05 pm
I was also baking at sparrow fart this morning. Haven't got far enough into the loaf to check for gummy bottom in today's experiment yet though.

I pondered buying some round bannetons but then came to the conclusion that my rye floured tea towel in a mixing bowl was working fine so didn't buy any more 'stuff'
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Beardy on 14 January, 2022, 12:23:26 am
I’m wondering if bannetons are what I need or whether I can get by with parchment lined pudding basins. I’m going to carry on using the old casserole in place of a Dutch oven for the time being though as the results seem more than adequate. I do need a razor blade older though, the knifes I’ve been using are just not sharp enough.

I’ve also made a formal request to my off-spring for a Ken Forkish book for my birthday.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 14 January, 2022, 12:49:15 am
I’m wondering if bannetons are what I need or whether I can get by with parchment lined pudding basins.

Don’t use parchment, use a muslin cloth or a tea towel.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 14 January, 2022, 04:56:01 pm
I am pleased to announce that yesterday's bread experiment did not result in a gummy bottom.

So at that rate it should only take about 6 months for me to finish up all that malted grain flour.

Or I could try going back to 40% of the malted grain and reduce the water a bit to see if that helps.
Hmm. I've not been scoring my dough, wonder if that would help.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/44965018/too-many-variables-dummy.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 14 January, 2022, 06:12:02 pm
Hmm. I've not been scoring my dough, wonder if that would help.

I'm not a Slasher, preferring the natural look.
But it's just a personal cosmetic preference.

Doubt it will make much difference to the overall nature of the bread.
But do report back...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Beardy on 14 January, 2022, 10:14:55 pm
I need to decide on the walk home from the pub whether I can be bothered to make a dough tonight for a first prove overnight in the fridge. It’ll still need a second prove in the morning but I should manage to have a loaf ready for lunch this way.
Blimey, who thought baking your own bread was straightforward.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 14 January, 2022, 10:46:00 pm
Doubt it will make much difference to the overall nature of the bread.

I would have thought the only difference scoring makes is giving you more control over where and how it rises during cooking. If you don't score it, it might split in the wrong place as it expands, resulting in misshapen loaves.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 14 January, 2022, 11:06:45 pm
What I was reading suggested letting more moisture out
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 17 January, 2022, 03:49:00 pm
Bit of a variation today.

My pure sourdough loaves have all been Ken's 'Overnight Country Blonde' recipe.
The flour mix in this is 804g White / 26g Wholemeal / 50g Rye, at 78% hydration.
This is quite a 'white' bread.

Today's effort was his 'Overnight Country Brown', which as it's name suggests, is a more 'brown' loaf.
The flour mix is 604g white / 276g Wholemeal and no Rye, again at 78% hydration.

It has quite a different flavour and texture, which I think works better.
It's a great all-purpose bread.

Re scoring, I think if the 'skin' on the dough is of the correct tension, then the steam ruptures through by itself perfectly well leaving a rather random and artisanal look about the ruptures and ears.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51826345076_d2d201c1a9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mXHyMJ)
Overnight Country Brown (https://flic.kr/p/2mXHyMJ) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 17 January, 2022, 05:11:45 pm
That does look very appetising indeed!

Lack of adequate surface tension is, I suspect, why my loaves are not hitting the heights, literally. I think this could be down to under-kneading or over-proving, or both, or other factors...

Made one this morning that turned out very nicely flavour-wise but once again failed to get the desired "oven spring" - it's far from being a pancake but is flatter than I'd like.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 17 January, 2022, 05:34:34 pm
Hmm, just seeing what the sourdough I was making in previous years worked out to be. It was Andrew Whiteley's Cromarty Cob which worked out to be 266g white, 266g wholemeal, 44g rye at 72% hydration, which I ended up reducing to 64%.


Anyhoo, I've decided that tomorrow's Forkish expt will be to go back to 200g of the Sainbo's malted flour in lieu of wholemeal and reducing hydration to 75% and see how that impacts the gummy bottom.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 17 January, 2022, 09:03:28 pm
Problem with doing half hourly folds is when the kitty who rarely does laps decides to do laps.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 17 January, 2022, 09:59:16 pm
Lack of adequate surface tension is, I suspect, why my loaves are not hitting the heights, literally.

There's a technique for shaping the loaves after the bulk fermentation ( first proof if you like ) before placing it in the banneton for the second proof, and this is a factor in the tension of the skin.

Tip the dough out of the mixing / bulk fermentation bukkit onto a floured surface.
If the dough is highly hydrated ( >65% for example ) it will be a little splurgy and might stick to the bowl. Tease it out gently to avoid de-gassing.
It will likely start to spread over the worktop.
Work quickly.

With floured hands, gather the spreading dough back into a semblance of shape, and then make a series of 4 folds from each side over to the opposite side.
Invert the folded dough ball, putting it fold side down (this will become the top of the finished loaf).
Now, we tension it like this:

Scooping from the back of the dough ball, leading with the little fingers at the base of the ball, drag the ball towards you on a lightly floured surface.
You don't want it to slide, you want it to drag.
Your little fingers are pulling the top skin of the dough towards the rear, and at the same time, the friction of the surface during the drag is pulling the top skin towards the front.
At the same time, you use the other fingers to stretch the skin to the left and right.

One the dough has been dragged 6 inches or so, pick it up, rotate the ball by 90 degrees and put it back at the start.
Repeat the process until you have done this all around the dough ball, say 4 times.

At the end of this, the dough ball should have enough tension to remain shaped, rather than splurging.
Go around again if it's too loose, but don't over-tension it. It should be *just* enough to not splurge.

Then scoop it up and place it in the banneton, fold-side down.
When you tip it out of the banneton at bake-time, the fold-side will be up, and that's how we scoop it into the dutch oven.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 18 January, 2022, 09:46:31 am
Scooping from the back of the dough ball, leading with the little fingers at the base of the ball, drag the ball towards you on a lightly floured surface.
You don't want it to slide, you want it to drag.
Your little fingers are pulling the top skin of the dough towards the rear, and at the same time, the friction of the surface during the drag is pulling the top skin towards the front.
At the same time, you use the other fingers to stretch the skin to the left and right.

This is pretty much what I do. But maybe I'm doing it wrong.

I need to go on a course or something, get someone to give me a hands-on demonstration. I have a local friend who makes the most beautiful loaves every time - I should ask her for help.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 18 January, 2022, 12:53:19 pm
Might be worth trying to drop the hydration a little? Everyone's flour is different.

Anyway this is the result of the last experiment. Seems ok so far, I'll keep doing this until I've got rid of all the malted flour I have hoarded.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51828851960_ed46b09dfd.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mXWpZS)2022-01-18_12-47-59 (https://flic.kr/p/2mXWpZS) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51827179572_b68e27975a.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mXMQRA)2022-01-18_12-48-12 (https://flic.kr/p/2mXMQRA) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 18 January, 2022, 01:38:36 pm
Looking good.
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 18 January, 2022, 02:48:25 pm
Very nice, Mrs P!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 January, 2022, 10:29:43 pm
This morning I drove into Chelmsford and dropped into Marriage's Mills for some flour. I bought 3 16kg bags, one each of Chelmer White, Malted Brown and Organic Wholemeal.

The wholemeal has a best before date of May, the other two September. Jan and I get through about three 400g loaves per week (usually I use more like 420g per loaf. I don't weigh very accurately but I always slightly exceed the recipe's weight). Given that 4 loaves use 1.6kg, that means that there would be 40 loaves per bag, or 120 loaves (40 weeks) for the lot.

I use 100g white, 200g wholemeal and 100g malted brown as my default combination, so, given that best-before dates are going to err quite markedly on the safe side, I should be OK.

Up to now, I have shared the flour with Dez & Alex, but they have moved to Mansfield so it's not quite so easy for them just to walk round for a top-up.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 25 January, 2022, 10:23:38 am
Anybody tried sharpening their bread knife? Ours doesn't seem to be coping very well with the artisanal bread. Not exactly sure how old the knife is but probably the thick end of 20 years at least...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 25 January, 2022, 11:23:10 am
I have the same problem.
The sawing motion itself is not enough to cut the crust, and you end up using more downward pressure than you might like, and sqidging the loaf.
Also, it can take a bit of work to saw through the base.
As a result, I can't cut thin slices, just door-steps.

I might just get a new bread knife.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 25 January, 2022, 11:41:25 am
Serrated slicers are your friend, I have a Victorinox, about 30 years old, but this looks  adequate

https://www.nisbets.co.uk/hygiplas-serrated-slicer-yellow-30-5cm/c811

They do lose their edge after a while, but my Lansky system hones work well to sharpen, I only have to do that every couple of years or so, despite constant use. The ones I have are triangular, they now do circular (https://lansky.com/index.php/products/medium-curved-hone/), which will likely be even easier
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 26 January, 2022, 06:38:45 pm
I've pulled the pin on the white-handled version of that.
I'll report back when it arrives...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 26 January, 2022, 06:45:15 pm
I had a bash at sharpening ours for shits & giggles but haven't had occasion to try it out yet.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 26 January, 2022, 11:07:46 pm
I had a bash at sharpening ours for shits & giggles but haven't had occasion to try it out yet.

I can imagine cutting a shit (messy!) but giggles would be a little harder...

I find that our bread knife has a layer of bread stick to the surface of the blade. I suspect it might be because I use olive oil in the recipe, rather than the recommended butter.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 27 January, 2022, 10:32:31 am
I find that our bread knife has a layer of bread stick to the surface of the blade. I suspect it might be because I use olive oil in the recipe, rather than the recommended butter.

Mine does that too, and I use no oil or butter or anything similar; only flour, water, salt and either yeast or levain starter.
And it can be surprisingly difficult to wash off, requiring vigorous scrubbing.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 27 January, 2022, 11:37:32 am
I've been experimenting with the stretch-and-fold method, albeit in a somewhat slapdash fashion rather than following a well defined routine. But I've had some good results so far. Made a sponge yesterday morning, used that for a dough about teatime, did a few stretch-and-folds throughout the evening, then shaped and left to prove overnight and baked first thing this morning. That was at 70% hydration, which is somewhat higher than I would normally go for, and the dough was very sticky, but it turned out very nicely - although I think I could have left it to prove a bit longer for even better results.

I'm going to have to get myself a copy of the Forkish book and start doing this properly.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 01 February, 2022, 09:25:58 pm
I've pulled the pin on the white-handled version of that.
I'll report back when it arrives...


You got your knife yet?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 02 February, 2022, 09:24:43 am
I've pulled the pin on the white-handled version of that.
I'll report back when it arrives...


You got your knife yet?

Yes.

So it's very long, and so it cuts the entire width of the loaf much better that the old one.
It's also very sharp, and cuts through the crust even of an older loaf just fine.

However, it's quite thin, and so is really quite flexible.
My old bread knife is thick enough to be quite inflexible.
So it can 'wander' a bit attempting to cut thin slices, so that particular issue remains.

Personally, I don't think this kind of loaf lends itself to thin slicing anyway.
You can cut 15 - 20mm thick slices just fine, and I think anything thinner is not really going to work.
(It's Mrs F who wants the thinner slices.)

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 02 February, 2022, 10:50:04 am
I highly recommend one of these devices - very useful for getting even slices even with soft bread:
https://www.lakeland.co.uk/13173/Lakeland-EvenSlice-Bread-Slicer

(Ours has been used to the point that we've worn through the bottom of it, but it has well outlasted the three year guarantee Lakeland offer.)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 03 February, 2022, 02:56:55 pm
That looks like a useful thing, thanks.

I've googled the bread slicer thing, and there's a whole world of things out there.
That particular one is, I suspect, too narrow to accommodate the width of my loaves once you get close to the middle.
Actually, I think it might work if I were to turn the loaf onto it's side...
I think I'll end up getting some such device.

Anyways, thanks for the pointer.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: orienteer on 03 February, 2022, 04:47:23 pm
To cut really thin slices, it helps to put the cut face of the loaf on the work surface and slice horizontally.

Latest loaf from the bread maker today hasn't risen very much, the dried yeast (Doves Farm) although within use by date is going off, so time to start a new packet.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 03 February, 2022, 05:42:59 pm
I can't help but think there ought to be a more slimline solution to the bread slicer gadget. Having said that having bought quite a number of useless gadgets from Lakeland as a very young Mrs Pingu I'm a bit leery of them these days.
I might go and check out the knives in person :o at Nisbets on Saturday. Noting Feanor's comment on flexible blades I was tending towards a Victorinox which I believe also has a curved blade to assist cutting through the bottom.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 04 February, 2022, 07:46:35 pm
I find I can slice comfortably and evenly with my Victorinox, I think I prefer the straight option where the tip of the blade cuts through to the board, as it is easy to put an edge on the last bit, whereas if you have a convex curve, it is the middle of the knife that will blunt, which is the same segment as that which you will use to start the slice.

I've experimented with all manner of knives, including one like this (https://www.bigchop.com.au/product/big-chop-perfect-slice-bread-knives/) given to me years ago, which seems brilliant but actually is more trouble than it's worth. The blade is as sharp as buggery, but thin and flexy so you have to work really hard to keep it even.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 04 February, 2022, 08:29:53 pm
Well if those bow saw things can only be used by a leftie or a rightie at any one time they won't work in Pingu Towers.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 07 February, 2022, 05:07:42 pm
I went to Nisbet's and had a feel of the Victorinox bread knife and the pastry knife. The bread knife was significantly more flexible than the pastry knife, though the serrated edge appeared pretty similar, excepting the curve on the pastry knife.
So noting Feanor's comments about the flexible blade wandering I went for the pastry knife https://www.nisbets.co.uk/victorinox-fibrox-serrated-pastry-knife-255mm/c663?cm_sp=Peerius-_-productRecsTop-_-title

Wow, we really did need a new knife! It positively slid through the loaf without much sawing at all, a perfectly straight cut which I got pretty thin on one side (the loaf was already cut a bit at an angle from top to base so I was trying to make it vertical again).
Well impressed.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 13 February, 2022, 03:09:28 pm
So spent a while in Nisbets in ABZ yesterday, looking at knives.
I've ended up buying a rather worryingly-named 'Dick Knife' brand.

https://www.nisbets.co.uk/dick-red-spirit-bread-knife-260mm/gh290

mostly on the grounds that it's sharp and not over-flexible.

I'll report back once it arrives ( was not in stock, they only had one to show me out of a chef's set, which cost eveventy).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 13 February, 2022, 04:56:53 pm
I've been using Dick knives since forever (I think I found them originally in Divertimenti?) and I doubt you will regret the purchase (except if it tempts you to further indulge)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 21 February, 2022, 02:00:31 pm
I can haz new knife!
Will report back after Wednesday's bake.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51895080023_b83ac3cee9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n4MRi2)
Dick knife (https://flic.kr/p/2n4MRi2) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 23 February, 2022, 08:47:04 pm
Right, so I made a fresh loaf this morning, and then had at it with the new knife.

Normally, I'd leave the loaf an hour before attempting to cut it.
Let the crust harden up enough so I don't squidge the loaf during cutting.

Today, I gave it about half an hour, and it was still very warm and quite soft.
The new knife cut through it with ease, no loaf-squidging downward pressure, and no lateral flex.
Perfect.

Well happy with it.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ashaman42 on 24 February, 2022, 08:25:06 pm
I have bought some spelt flour to transition my sourdough starter over to.

And tomorrow I have a banneton and a couple other bits and pieces coming.

I was going to get rice flour to dust the banneton but our Tesco doesn't have it so I've got some cornflour instead.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 15 March, 2022, 03:06:07 pm
Well I may have to get a fixie now.

With a houseful for the foreseeable future (I can't see further than 3 months) and some enthusiastic appetites, I'm baking about 3Kg of flour a week. I thought the time had come for me to make sourdough again. So, meet
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 17 March, 2022, 09:35:45 pm
Well, despite various reference works saying that you should discard the first bit of starter before feeding and using, I've decided to gamble a few hundred grams of flour and see what happens. Volodymyr seems to be very happy in his work, and the first prove at room temperature was fine, dough sitting in fridge now overnight. 70%-ish hydration, texture is fine, it's as non-sticky as a 70% can be, doesn't stick when you handle, although it is a bit sloppy. It's been over 20 years since I last baked sourdough, and I'm still using a plastic bowl, I do have some banneton on order you'll be pleased to hear. The thing that's challenging me now is the baking - I think I'll put into a hot oven (220 fan) from cold, with a hot water tray, much as I would for baguette (only slightly cooler) as I'd be baking for crust. How do any of you that know what you are doing do it?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 18 March, 2022, 09:08:25 am
Well, verdict is could do better, but I'm not too unhappy

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgNASlLeR9uRlgFVZZ5-5MbrH7gnBzMjtLA8sa5LDHjHBllkkBL3xpHucstUhhpafCthxrPDiVYd7SxQE0rb748RVUdNYD0Acr8zT5JQDtgdmBUDsFL8aLRuE1I0NwD1wD5sGRwbih0DdRl2CGGYr2Ch1Tk_I3VioLG9aEVckee5paOG4qMsH8aN9fT/s1024/PXL_20220318_065420619.jpg)

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgoALBMULrSMu7RclcpJRsY6F5W9WHW313hrdq-ZvGdAReFarUJdHzQrahPZGykVbTZ2XrWiFBThnHXNAVwrVBG4tZ4R5bjBh0QsInBC3-QZhSC9u75OEqAEAnjo6cAhnyCWXz_kSyIJWlQmSAwI67j2WTdSaaOPSZrDhH6ePHrrp-pGpU4crJKUqtj/s1024/PXL_20220318_073223466.jpg)

could have done with baking a bit longer, and there is a bit too much chewiness, flavour and texture overall good, will make ace toast. Certainly worth the experiment rather than discard. Sponge looks good now.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 18 March, 2022, 09:23:29 am
That looks decent. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 19 March, 2022, 01:44:57 pm
#2

Experimenting with baking temperature  (lower)

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhWT_mBwiXKDu9c5xjisqYYZ88JQnbFaFLU6sMLvWFJfuexeIvSuWIuVkPtrFkTed4oQ6_zV_6WCoqWp-KvnydY3SI6WUGifkKUR4DQvzU9X3MWMnpnzjk-0anUx0o7vVnvj0ODl0Es-cHUXqRVFUMUd3EUa_W4kOB3JCCUKffhaMqtORw9Ply7nRCz/s1024/PXL_20220319_130656655.jpg)

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEikUUE_SV0Ze_p2gG1AcyOvFAhZikTm8CVHh9EmxyZgj4bWLWGoswBkblwsPltp3ObYeRr1sbVhS_v0ydxFJ5C63DVQPIJ3aT5qt9myxykJbg5vVJbHX1IAnzrGql05Ia_rz3qYXaIdndI242qHGxBje_oK0fg-b2xdNAibF5266g1uEncsNySAmXLH/s1024/PXL_20220319_102903891.jpg)

Again, not too shabby but still too damp, aeration not as pronounced or even but actually a nice texture in the mouth. I wonder if that's the plastic bowl I'm using, and the banneton will help lose some moisture. 70% hydration again.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 20 March, 2022, 12:18:26 pm
Indications are that it is Volodmyr that is too immature.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 20 March, 2022, 12:41:14 pm
Not sure if you know this but if you use Rye to feed the starter it really helps
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 20 March, 2022, 04:46:05 pm
Assume I know nothing (which works in 90% of instances), sounds like it would be worth a go. I might be in danger of having to look at a real recipe then, as my base calculation (200g of starter=100 flour,100 water) would likely be off as a result.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 20 March, 2022, 04:49:07 pm
Rye is definitely worth a try. I think last time I bred a starter it was viable in 3 days with rye.

Yes, rye based starter will affect the recipe. I can't remember which way round it is (less vs more water) but you'll just have to suck it and see  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 20 March, 2022, 07:22:28 pm
I can't remember which way round it is (less vs more water)

Rye is relatively low in gluten compared to wheat so less water would make sense.

I feed my starter with white rye but I've never factored flour type into the calculations. I tend to use a fairly low quantity of starter though, so I can't imagine it makes much difference.

To be honest, I'm pretty slapdash in my approach but it usually turns out edible, which is all I really care about.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 25 March, 2022, 11:02:06 am
Level up!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mr Larrington on 25 March, 2022, 11:06:10 am
Send it to Teethgrinder!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hatler on 25 March, 2022, 11:49:51 am
Curling stone.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 25 March, 2022, 12:32:55 pm
Throw it for a dog to catch.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 25 March, 2022, 01:24:26 pm
And add an RSPCA ticket to my rap sheet? No thanks.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 25 March, 2022, 03:09:05 pm
This is what came out of my oven this morning:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51960368799_ed930de942_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2naytnz)
sourdough (https://flic.kr/p/2naytnz) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51960651830_434c6afc33_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nazVvq)
Sourdough (https://flic.kr/p/2nazVvq) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

Made with bog standard Allinson Very Strong White at around 60% hydration. Being relatively low hydration, it makes for a fairly stiff dough and you don't get those big air bubbles, but it's so much easier to work with and far less prone to collapsing under its own weight, so no danger of pancakes. Baked it in the cast iron thing at 200ºC for 40 minutes, then a final 10 minutes with the lid off. Not much oven spring - I didn't score the top and it obviously didn't produce enough lift to break the surface of its own accord.

My starter is very active at the moment - I'm feeding it twice a day. Using the discard to make sourdough crumpets. Which are amazing.

(50g starter, 100g flour, 120ml milk/water mix, 1/2 tsp salt, leave in a warm place until full of bubbles, then stir in a whisked egg white and a pinch of bicarb dissolved in 2tbsp water. Dollop onto a hot griddle to cook - for crumpets, use a ring and only cook on one side; for pikelets, don't use a ring and cook on both sides.)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 29 March, 2022, 09:12:44 pm
That's looking pretty decent!

Got home from a 3 week absence, and we don't have a levain-sitter in out employ.
However, it's perked up 100% as normal, and will be ready for a dough mix tomorrow.

In the meantime, I did a yeast-leavened overnight wholemeal to tide us over. Do not under-estimate the nomminess of a yeast bread. It's not all about sourdough.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 02 April, 2022, 07:37:50 pm
Just on my way home from hipster central Hackney, where I've been on a sourdough baking course at the E5 Bakehouse. Brilliant day out, much to remember, much to try out.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 12 April, 2022, 11:31:16 am
The anatomy of Pizza

So with a bit of a family get-together as an excuse, pizza was made!
Pizza, like it's close cousin focaccia, is essentially a bread product.
And it's the bread part of it I want to talk about here.
(This is what is sometimes called a Neapolitan style Pizza.)

This dough is based on a Poolish, which is a pre-fermented mix of half of the flour along with an equal weight of water (100% hydrated), and a tiny sprinkling of yeast (0.4g).  This ferments for 14 hours overnight before the final dough is mixed, followed by a bulk ferment period of around 6 hours. The dough is then divided and shaped, and allowed to final proof for a couple of hours before it's ready for hand-stretching, topping and cooking!

This evil-looking primordial slurry is the Poolish after 14 hours overnight fermentation!:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51999318921_e12752f854_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ne16Tp)
Pizza (https://flic.kr/p/2ne16Tp) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

The final-mixed dough after two 'folds' in the 6 hour bulk fermentation phase. This had been mixed to 72% hydration. You can go up to 75%, but it's so soft it becomes difficult to handle and stretch.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51999377863_18cfa95d9d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ne1ppD)
Pizza (https://flic.kr/p/2ne1ppD) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

Divided and shaped ready for final proof:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51999377318_2b3cfd643a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ne1pff)
Pizza (https://flic.kr/p/2ne1pff) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

Apply some fire...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51999318046_8ac960b511_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ne16Cj)
Pizza (https://flic.kr/p/2ne16Cj) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

Add some wine, and eat...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51999376688_a414950e1a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ne1p4o)
Pizza (https://flic.kr/p/2ne1p4o) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

There was another batch of dough too, which was a full-on sourdough made from fermentzilla living in the fridge. However (and somewhat controversially), I actually prefer the Poolish dough for pizza. I find the 100% sourdough a wee bit too strongly flavoured and tangy for pizza. The very slow ferment of the poolish gives the flavour I prefer.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: John Stonebridge on 12 April, 2022, 11:47:24 am
Looks tasty Ron.

Nice to see you supporting 6 Degrees North as well!     
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 12 April, 2022, 11:57:07 am
Nice to see you supporting 6 Degrees North as well!   

Local club connection there...

Sandy Lindsay is El Supremo of our cycle club, DTCC.
Robert Lindsay, founder of 6 Degrees North is his son, who makes regular appearances on club rides.
They are the sponsors of the local Stonehaven beer and cycling event:
https://www.midsummerbeerhappening.co.uk/

Sadly, there's no club discount available...

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 12 April, 2022, 01:08:54 pm
Looks splendid, Feanor. I really must build a bread oven in the garden some day.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: slope on 18 April, 2022, 05:58:27 pm
New better (but still totally cheapo) oven = new improved bread. 50/50 stoneground strong white/wholemeal spelt with pebbeldash sunflower seeds. Instant yeast, knead for 10 minutes, whack it straight in the tin, wait an hour (no knock back) and bake = surprisingly acceptable. All that magic energy ripping its crust heavenwards🖕

NB I only eat bread toasted - and no comparisons with other types implied


Do love making pizza dough with 3-5 day fridge cold ferment too :thumbsup:


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52013285126_23cb010773_o.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 29 April, 2022, 03:42:20 pm
Bit of a variation today - an Olive Bread.

This is a 100% levain-levened sourdough, using a 'blonde' flour mix; ie mostly strong white but with some wholemeal and rye in the mix, giving a golden colour to the bread.

Getting the Kalamata olives to incorporate into the dough was quite hard.  You can fold them in, and work the mixture, but they just fall back out again and roll around the bottom of the mixing bowl. The dough did not want to accept them at all. But if you persevere, they do eventually incorporate.

I'm happy with the results.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52036889197_c90b986d53_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nhjEdM)
Olive bread (https://flic.kr/p/2nhjEdM) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52036888267_66351be19a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nhjDWK)
Olive bread (https://flic.kr/p/2nhjDWK) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 29 April, 2022, 07:27:30 pm
Looks nice!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 07 May, 2022, 05:02:14 pm
Managed to find my baking accoutrements from various boxes so tomorrow morning will be the first bread in the shiny! new! improved! oven, hopefully.
In other bread news I am finally down to my last bag of Sainsbos multiseeded soggy bottom flour so I should be back on the proper stoneground wholemeal in a month or so...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 07 May, 2022, 07:04:49 pm
I had my first really poor loaf earlier this week.

Same 100% sourdough one I've made dozens of times before.
It's the change in overnight temperature that's the issue.
After the overnight bulk ferment at room temperature, it was super lively and sticky, and difficult to shape and put in the banneton for the final proof.
It was threatening to stick to the banneton after the final proof.

On baking, it didn't get half as much 'oven spring' as usual, and was rather flat and dense.
The resulting bread has a very strong malty smell and flavour.

Basically, it had over-proofed.
The fermentation had gone a bit wild overnight since the room temperature was so high.

I'm going to have to adjust my timings for the warmer weather, I think.
And make more effort with the 'finger-poke' test to determine optimal proofing.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 07 May, 2022, 10:54:27 pm
Managed to find my baking accoutrements from various boxes so tomorrow morning will be the first bread in the shiny! new! improved! oven, hopefully.
In other bread news I am finally down to my last bag of Sainsbos multiseeded soggy bottom flour so I should be back on the proper stoneground wholemeal in a month or so...

So I've been assuming that new (Bosch) oven would do the same as old Bosch oven and allow me to set it to come on at a certain time, thus letting me lie abed a bit longer on baking days, but I don't think it will, unless the instructions are just very poorly explained.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 08 May, 2022, 02:49:47 pm
Well, that was not my finest hour. I did manage to get the oven to come on at sparrowfart despite the stupid instructions.
I made 2 of the same loaf. Unfortunately the 1st one I turned into a charcoal biscuit (operator error, I forgot that full blast on this oven is rather higher than the old one, I'm blaming the lurgi), the second one didn't seem to rise well. It was the same sachet of yeast but different packets of flour. I baked it anyway despite it looking a bit weedy.
The charcoal biscuit is ok on the crumb, the crust is just a bit carbonaceous...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 18 May, 2022, 01:29:00 pm
I made a loaf yesterday morning - just an ordinary bog-standard yeasted loaf (1/3 wholemeal), because we'd run out of bread. Unfortunately, we had a power-cut mid-morning, which meant I couldn't put it in the oven when it was ready to bake. So I took it out of the tin, knocked it back, reshaped it and put it back in for a second prove. Luckily, the power was back on by lunchtime.

What came out at the end was an artist's impression of a perfect loaf:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52082154428_98f83f2e21.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nmjDZN)Loaf (https://flic.kr/p/2nmjDZN) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

And it tastes really good too - I guess the extra proving time allowed the flavour to develop.

Got a sourdough loaf on the go right now. The warm weather means it is rather lively, and it should be ready to bake this afternoon, despite only being started this morning.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 18 May, 2022, 03:48:23 pm
That looks perfect.

My last few loaves have been yeast-leavened too, because they prove overnight in the fridge, so a temperature-controlled environment which is unaffected by the seasons.
Yes, time is an ingredient. It is a main factor in developing flavour, and that's why yeast-based doughs are done in the fridge: you don't want it to be ready to bake in 2 hours.

My woes with sourdough recently are because levain-based doughs are much slower, and generally need overnight at room temperature.  But not so much right now!
Yes, you can reduce the time, but that's not really what I want to do; as I said, time is an ingredient.
I want the fermentation to take the full time.
So I need to manage the temperature better.
I've located what I think is a cool enough room in the house to leave it.  Beyond that, it's going to be in an out-building.  And then, a temperature-controlled cabinet, which I don't have the space for!


I've got the levain refreshing right now, and will attempt one tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 18 May, 2022, 04:39:38 pm

Yes, time is an ingredient. It is a main factor in developing flavour, and that's why yeast-based doughs are done in the fridge: you don't want it to be ready to bake in 2 hours.


Too right, 50 minutes before baking is enough ;)

My standard bake uses the raising setting in the oven which delivers consistent results across the seasons: 25 minutes 1st prove, 25 minutes in the tin, turn the oven on 45 minutes, finish out the tin for 5 minutes. Now Citoyen, that loaf does look mighty fine, but mine don't look _that_ different. As it goes, this morning's bake has more variation because (a) I dried the oven out after the 1st prove (lord knows why!) resulting in the surface not being as smooth as normal, and then it ended up being baked for 10 minutes extra so crust is darker. It still has a good texture and excellent flavour. The loaf on the left is Gilchester's unbleached white from bakerybits, picked up short date/reduced and VERY nice.

It might not be obvious but the raise is likely as much as yours, I would have thought the texture would be similar. Don't last long anyhow.

ETA - just to be clear, I am NOT saying mine look as nice as that one!!!

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgB-IYqITNcFPMKTb7XNWkZ8Wu2v_8REnGhysPmnJ4BaxvMlujpiiOH7bOVG044zFnwpQTMN3qYq9r63NOQNGSULk1_uF0gUZkDkgDp13O06VHTATaumhE5-nhJtjWvSGQwaO9jI4p9CNQxeq2uLwGRUxy3hNBvY_zdg0_qqJuX2d9hQ3rXqmgzQWNq/s1024/PXL_20220518_150839398.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 19 May, 2022, 07:27:17 pm
Since I went on a sourdough course (see up thread), I've expanded my repertoire from 1 white sourdough loaf a week.

I've tried:
Seeded rye (baked in a loaf tin)
Porridge (oats and linseed boiled up and incorporated into the dough)
Bagels. O M G.

Ob cycling: Just scoffed a couple of slices of seeded rye with cheese while I watch the Giro highlights.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 03 June, 2022, 10:20:58 am
Bagels. O M G.

Ooh! That sounds good. I've done yeasted bagels, never sourdough ones. Intriguing.

Have you tried making sourdough croissants yet? Unbelievably good.

In other bread news - I have a couple of old loaf tins that I don't really know the capacity of. I usually just fill them with an amount of dough that looks about right. But I thought I'd try to be a bit more scientific about it, so looked up on that there internet for a way of working out the "correct" quantity. And found this advice - one for the "science that makes you cringe" thread:
Quote
Math is definitely not my best subject. I have come to learn that it's always easier to do the math than just eyeball it.  I typically use grams per cubic inch.
http://www.wholegrain100.com/shaping--scoring-techniques-blog/calculate-bread-dough-to-fit-your-pan

 :facepalm:

As far as I can tell using info from various sources, the "correct" answer is a weight of dough that's roughly half the volume of the tin. My tins are different shapes but both hold around 1.2L water, so need around 600g dough according to this calculation. I know it's not an exact science and will vary according to the type of flour used, but I'm going to use that as a guide and see how I get on.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 23 September, 2022, 08:19:32 am
This belongs in the annals of divvery, but here due to the specialist nature.

I haz a bag of Gilchrist's Einkorn flour, an "ancient grain" apparently. I opens sed bag and tip out 750g. I think to myself, "Interesting, doesn't look look or feel like it will take that much water, probably how they used to prefer it in days gone by". Why, then, in the name of Dog and all that's holy did I then proceed to try to make it at 70%? Yes I know I was thinking to myself they probably used to make it sourdough, but really that's no excuse. In the oven now, anyhow. I'll probably finish cleaning up sometime next week.

ETA it made rather tasty bread
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 24 September, 2022, 09:01:47 pm
I'd offered to make a bread for a friend, so I did a double-quantity.
(Actually, a single-quantity from the Ken Forkish book; it's just that I normally do a half quantity to make one loaf!)

This is actually a hybrid leavened bread, with some 180g of levain and about 1g of yeast, in a 1000g total flour recipe,proved overnight in the fridge.
(The Pain de campagne, if you have the book.)

It's a great recipe, with the predictability of a controlled environment proof.  Has all the qualities of a pure sourdough you want: flavour, density, chew; but less big holes in it, a more consistent bubble distribution.

The one on the left is a bit wonky because the banneton was sitting a bit wonky in the fridge overnight. The polly bag was wrinkled a bit under it, so the banneton was tipped a bit over. So when I came to tip it out of the banneton and plonk it in the oven, the banneton ring-marks were all a bit off-centre!

The bread on the chopping board is an overnight straight yeasted 40% wholemeal, made in a bit of a hurry a couple of days ago.  It's a bit meh.
The more sharp-eyed reader may spot that I am mid-way through a dishoom kejriwal in the background...

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52381273931_19f28c9c46_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nNKHNB)
Double sourdough (https://flic.kr/p/2nNKHNB) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 25 September, 2022, 07:46:14 pm
Branching out from a white loaf a week sourdough, I had a go at wholemeal. I've got a recipe in the pamphlet I picked up from my course at the E5 bakhouse.

Do all the stuffs, even a bit of temperature control for the leaven.

Hmm, as I stretch and fold, this dough is a bit stiff. Never mind, crack on.

Prove it overnight in the fridge. Still somewhat dense.  When it comes to baking it, the loaf is so firm I can pick it up in my hand and place it in the oven.

Looks like bread when it comes out, but small.  Re read the recipe.  375g of water you say?  Not the 275g I put in then. That's a drop from the proposed 85% hydration to 65%.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tZjsjHnLf0zraz4ZtuVvHZhi-7LmlObq7a8lxb51f1RFeSlEFCv3K0Nlkg-GTiJ1RJRtaJRvOFuRghFsONcPzHOsgdyqEmEZMW7OzMuGGfenE0A5cfK6s2Xa62UMkEtpLXcJWmBZkE=w1200)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 26 September, 2022, 06:10:28 pm
Back on it.   30% dark rye. Looks like a nice spring.



(https://i.ibb.co/kDDc1NL/20220926-175216.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6ttsBjK)
(https://i.ibb.co/xDTVQs8/20220926-175209.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NsBwz3n)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 26 September, 2022, 08:15:17 pm
Back on it.   30% dark rye. Looks like a nice spring.



(https://i.ibb.co/kDDc1NL/20220926-175216.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6ttsBjK)


A nice spring? A nice helmet more like.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 26 September, 2022, 08:22:31 pm
That was, until your helmet comment, my signature leaf pattern.

Now I can't unsee it.

Bastard.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: rogerzilla on 02 October, 2022, 07:47:25 am
One of the highlights of breakfast in Austrian hotels used to be Kornspitz rolls, a proprietary crusty roll with (being proprietary) a secret list of ingredients.  This year, no Kornspitz.  At first I thought the hotel was cutting costs but,if anything, the other food was better than before.  So I googled it.

It turns out that there was a very long-running court case ending in 2015 which judged that Kornspitz had become a generic name and the bakery/trademark owner lost its case.  So they stopped making the rolls, presumably because they were being undercut by competitors, and now you don't see Kornspitz anywhere.  Unintended consequences.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Slave To The Viking on 06 October, 2022, 06:28:00 pm
Bastard.

I thought it was "batard"?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: The Family Cyclist on 02 November, 2022, 10:38:50 am
My wife wants to try one of our kids in a gluten free diet, she's bought gluten free flour and I'm going to try making bread. Any tips  when I make normal bread I only use flour yeast water and salt
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 02 November, 2022, 12:35:50 pm
My wife wants to try one of our kids in a gluten free diet, she's bought gluten free flour and I'm going to try making bread. Any tips  when I make normal bread I only use flour yeast water and salt

Gluten is kind of essential in bread making, so if you’re omitting it you will need to replace it with something else - xanthan gum or psyllium husks are good options. I’ve used both with some success. Best way to use them is mix with water and leave to soak for 10 minutes before adding to your flour.

Just don’t expect the results to be as good as proper bread with gluten in it. They will help give the bread structure but the texture won’t be the same.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Little Jim on 02 November, 2022, 02:10:13 pm
We bought a loaf of bread in a small bakery/cafe in Grasmere, Cumbria a couple of weeks ago.   It was sold as a white bloomer or tin (I can't remember which) and was delicious.  It had a very uneven structure (if that is the right word) much like the photo in Feanor's post of 24th September, a slightly rubbery/elastic texture to the bread and almost a glossy finish, especially on the inside of the larger air bubbles (or CO2 to be correct I guess).  We thought it might be sourdough, but it wasn't sold as such.  It was the same bread they used in their sandwiches which were equally delicious.  Any idea what it could have been from my highly detailed description? :facepalm:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 10 November, 2022, 11:42:30 am
Could be sourdough or could be a regular yeasted dough but slow-fermented, using less yeast and cooler fermentation temperature, which allows the flavour to develop. Larger bubbles suggests higher hydration - 70% and upwards. That would also explain the chewier texture.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 20 November, 2022, 06:41:41 pm
In a moment of weakness I offered to make sourdough bagels for a family sized throng at Christmas.
Making I can do, but I'm not going to be making them on the day but making and freezing.

Key question: Should I make, bake, cool and freeze, thawing on the day or make, freeze, thaw and bake on the dsy?

I guess I could experiment beforehand.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 21 November, 2022, 07:21:03 am
Almost. Part bake is the answer, I get great results with my baguette bake that way. You're looking to take them out the oven when the bread is set but not yet brown. Defrost before finishing.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Little Jim on 21 November, 2022, 03:02:32 pm
Could be sourdough or could be a regular yeasted dough but slow-fermented, using less yeast and cooler fermentation temperature, which allows the flavour to develop. Larger bubbles suggests higher hydration - 70% and upwards. That would also explain the chewier texture.

Thank you for taking the trouble to reply and apologies for taking so long to actually get around to looking for the reply...

I will have a look on-line for slow-fermented dough, that could be a project for over the Christmas holidays.  If the dough has a high hydration level does that mean that it will still rise in a tin like a normal loaf would, or would it tend to slump over the edges?  The one we bought looked like a standard tin baked loaf with straight sides and then a slightly mushroom shaped top, with perhaps one quarter to one third of the loaf being above the top of the tin.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 21 November, 2022, 03:23:44 pm
I believe the trick to making bread with high hydration that doesn't slump is in how you shape it to create surface tension. It's not something I'm very good at, tbh - my sourdough loaves usually come out flatter than the ones made by experts on youtube, which are always perfect domes.

I would have thought it's less of an issue for tin loaves. I usually put mine in the oven when they're only just poking above the top of the tin, and the last part of the rising happens in the oven. Once the top crust has formed, there's no risk of slumping over the edges.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 21 November, 2022, 03:27:04 pm
Almost. Part bake is the answer, I get great results with my baguette bake that way. You're looking to take them out the oven when the bread is set but not yet brown. Defrost before finishing.

Part-baking sounds like a good plan.

My Christmas baking will be panettone - I need to make six to distribute to the various far-flung corners of the family. Panettone is something that definitely wouldn't tolerate being part-baked, which is a problem given how temperamental our oven is being at the moment - occasionally switching itself off halfway through the cooking time. We've got someone coming to look at it on Wednesday, fingers crossed they can fix it.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: T42 on 28 November, 2022, 08:14:23 am
Panettone looks like a good idea rather than Christmas cake - only slightly illicit compared to a sugar-bomb Dundee cake.

MrsT has had bread dough with the starter in it moping about the house since yesterday morning and only rising microscopically since we're not overheating the place.  The oven has a proving setting but it packed up years ago.   Muggins here only thought of looking at the microwave 20 minutes ago, and now the loaf is revolving gently and being hissed at for an hour.

While I'm Hero of the Moment I'll drop a word re panettone in her lug-hole before the shine wears off.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 28 November, 2022, 09:07:24 am
Loads of bready things this weekend.

Standard white sourdough loaf
Some sourdough rools. 76% hydration (I thnk) plus a glug or two of olive oil.
Bagels, three of which got gobbled up, three part baked and frozen as part my Christmas bagel experiment.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mr Larrington on 28 November, 2022, 10:32:08 am
Is a Christmas bagel experiment strictly kosher?

(http://legslarry.org.uk/BikeStull/coat_48.png)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: T42 on 28 November, 2022, 11:08:53 am
MrsT's loaf turned out... :facepalm: Maybe it was too cold too long yesterday. Well, in the absence of an Edam it might serve as a door-stop: the crust sounds like wood when you tap it.  I must inventory my teeth again.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 28 November, 2022, 04:47:58 pm
I've got a loaf on the go at the moment which has been proving since Friday and isn't yet ready to bake. Patience is a virtue on these occasions.

To be fair, I too have trouble rising when it's cold.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 03 December, 2022, 03:25:21 pm
I've got a loaf on the go at the moment which has been proving since Friday and isn't yet ready to bake. Patience is a virtue on these occasions.

To be fair, I too have trouble rising when it's cold.

Turns out that four days’ fermentation does wonders for flavour. Mostly managed to hold its shape too. I’m calling it a triumph.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Slave To The Viking on 05 December, 2022, 04:46:27 pm
Is a Christmas bagel experiment strictly kosher?

(http://legslarry.org.uk/BikeStull/coat_48.png)

I've always been quite a fan of making bacon and sausage sandwiches out of bagels. Not at Christmas, specifically - I practice a refusal to recognise religious observances all year round.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: hellymedic on 12 December, 2022, 10:42:07 pm
Is a Christmas bagel experiment strictly kosher?

(http://legslarry.org.uk/BikeStull/coat_48.png)

Jews eat beigels/bagels most of the year (except Passover).
They are Kosher until you eat them with bacon.

You vont us to STARVE because it's Christmas???
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 19 December, 2022, 11:05:25 am
My Christmas baking will be panettone...

Or not.

It's a disaster so far. I can't get the starter active enough because it's been so cold. It needs to be really vigorous because the dough is so heavily enriched. I've got a batch of first-stage dough currently fermenting but after the best part of 24 hours it's still not showing much sign of life.  :facepalm:

Was hoping to have one ready to take in for the last day in the office tomorrow to share with my colleagues but that ain't happening. Just as well I didn't tell them to expect it!

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 19 December, 2022, 11:30:49 am
I binned my levain before heading away on a Great Adventure some 12 weeks ago.

So I'm now on Day 5 of a brand new starter.
It's fairly vigorous, but I've been keeping it nice and warm in an airing cupboard overnight when it's been getting quite cold here.

Planning first sourdough loaf tomorrow!
(I've been on yeasted bread for the last few days, which is actually still pretty good.)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 09 January, 2023, 10:17:57 am
Well that WAS interesting.

Apropos of my cheese making shenanigans, I used the whey to make bread. While the difference in flavour for wholemeal was small but noticeable, the flavour of the white was brought up to faux sourdough level by the acidity in the whey.

While the phaffage and phun involved in cheesemaking is not repaid by savings, having whey to make bread with is deffo a worthwhile bonus, and reason enough to indulge in future cheese options.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Legs on 09 January, 2023, 10:25:33 am
My Christmas baking will be panettone...
It probably amounts to sacrilege on this thread, but I tried a panettone recipe in my ancient breadmaker yesterday, and, although it came out as definitely not-panettone, it was very delicious.  Staled incredibly quickly, but easily revived by a quick razz in the microwave!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 09 January, 2023, 10:27:26 am
Got a bit slapdash with my last two loaves, resulting in mis shapen lumps that collpased in the oven .  Concentrated a bit more this time and proved for a little longer.  Pleased with this:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/g_8BLSvYvHQVeORA1mfWP8j72oLMdDIN3p-22ZM532H8SXHhyVtOcSWXq8bGePCG8lEyzG--maxEgkEsP6KhdRCCl2ONgont4fK8JLYhl0cnira1XdmaAyph4q9tyiIdalyRBgnz4Lc=w1200)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 12 January, 2023, 08:41:48 am
I am finding something odd happening when I make bread.

Once a week I'm making 2 loaves of that Ken Forkish everyday type bread that Feanor mentioned a while back.
I weigh all the ingredients into 2 separate bowls and do all the steps at the same time, except they get baked an hour apart. They are proved overnight in the fridge so it's unlikely to be that extra hour making any difference.

The mixing/proving bowls are 2 different sizes (they stack inside each other). When I bake the loaves (in a dutch oven) often one of them is taller than the other. From what I can see it usually seems to be the dough from the smaller mixing bowl that ends up being taller.
It seems a bit counterintuitive to me, but would the dough in the larger bowl be rising less because it's got much more room to slack off and flow in the bottom of the bowl (so less surface tension if you like)?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 19 January, 2023, 07:35:06 pm
I baked again using whey (I'd frozen it after the cheese making) and it really does make a great white loaf, but it got me thinking.

Baking with milk is fairly standard for a nice, rich, bread. Buttermilk works great too, scones, bread, Limmonyk (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=93249.msg1921777#msg1921777). Has anyone ever experimented with Yoghurt ? It's an obvious next step
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: JonBuoy on 19 January, 2023, 08:05:48 pm
Naan recipes tend to use yoghurt.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 20 January, 2023, 08:04:17 am
Yes I've use yogurt in flatbreads.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 19 February, 2023, 09:32:15 pm
Some years ago we had a breadmaking machine commit suicide by jumping off the worktop in the middle of the night. Ever since then I've been very careful to make sure that it's a long way from the edge when I set it off and we've had no more trouble.

Until this evening. I decided on a whim to use it to make some Chelsea bun dough. I set it off quite a while back and then fell asleep in a chair. A few minutes ago I went and checked it. It was still on the surface, but had turned 180° and had the flex wound round it. It had pushed the electronic scales to the edge of the surface and they were hanging off. Fortunately no damage done, but a bit worrying.

I'm a bit surprised it did that as the dough recipe only allows for 260g flour and 100ml water. I clearly don't understand the science of bread maker inertia - or otherwise.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Kim on 19 February, 2023, 11:59:41 pm
Psychomagnotheric yeast?  Was there any music playing at the time?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgqEWSFNwxA
https://youtu.be/jgqEWSFNwxA
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 February, 2023, 12:39:03 am
The Chelsea Buns are Very Good. But they are not the sort of thing that someone intent on losing weight should make.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 20 February, 2023, 11:13:58 am
My Christmas baking will be panettone...
It probably amounts to sacrilege on this thread, but I tried a panettone recipe in my ancient breadmaker yesterday, and, although it came out as definitely not-panettone, it was very delicious.  Staled incredibly quickly, but easily revived by a quick razz in the microwave!

Somewhat belated update: the panettone never happened. The dough just never got going. I think it was partly down to being too cold and partly down to the starter being a bit sluggish from me being a bit slack with the feeding regime.

And then I completely killed it off... it had been in the oven on the warming setting in a bid to get it going, but then my wife came to make dinner and turned the oven on to preheat without checking if there was anything inside. Oops!

So I need to make a new starter, but I've not got round to it yet. Been making do with ordinary yeasted loaves for the last month or so. Which is fine for now.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 27 March, 2023, 09:52:07 pm
As mentioned in the Gregg's Hot Cross Buns thread I thought I'd have a go at sourdough hot cross buns.

Unsurprisingly there are many many recipes on teh intarwebs, so it took a bit of time to find one that resembled my standard loaf method, such as this:

https://homegrownhappiness.com/sourdough-hotcross-buns/ (https://homegrownhappiness.com/sourdough-hotcross-buns/)

First effort out of was baked this evening. Time constraints meant it had two lots of fridge based proving, which didn't seem to harm the final product.  Next time I'll put a bit more fruit in and up the spice a touch.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UebB_BXKGIAOjE-Frk-AOOVoKJKWzkmc7MUAFpQ77rCPnEE8SVIIQDYoT8yZLQhdTfhPHe4zDLCECwmMBJ6qfiewRFEFpS3agk00FjQ5q_Gfegwhq8Yk-BukfRAsarcaFdUlmtCUZf4=w1200)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/S-lvfPJD-qgG9FtSVyEIGsyCLk0J0Gu39fGtkDMLSEx3lzD2Wd6HopEWZj-Vct4Rn87ySMO3lbQXMTAMDMeE8tnmIOTqSc7SFdmrUjDFut8QdUg273Al_S-acN4P6qg4Ts7ovfQb8X8=w1200)   
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 27 March, 2023, 10:05:13 pm
I have decided that home made bread makes shit toast.
For the record, I don't like toast the way most other people seem to like it. I don't want it to be as dry as Ulrikakaka's crispbread and to shatter into a million tiny crumbs when you bite into it. I like my toast to be like warm golden bread. Which is not what happens when I toast my bread.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 27 March, 2023, 10:20:53 pm
I like my toast like that too, and yes, home-made sourdough can be a bit challenging.
But it can and does make the most excellent toast.

Firstly, it can only be cut into fairly thick slices: that's not to everyone's taste. The middle will only get a Bit Warm when the outside begins to toast.

When it's fresh, you really can't toast it. When put in a toaster, the crumb has too much moisture and doesn't toast. But the crust just burns.
But when it's a couple of days old, it's much more toastable as it has dried out a bit.

I often use it for breakfast things like kejriwal, and find that toasting it on a hot griddle over the hob works much better than a toaster.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 27 March, 2023, 11:13:24 pm
I have decided that home made bread makes shit toast.
For the record, I don't like toast the way most other people seem to like it. I don't want it to be as dry as Ulrikakaka's crispbread and to shatter into a million tiny crumbs when you bite into it. I like my toast to be like warm golden bread. Which is not what happens when I toast my bread.

Summat is wrong here, and not the concept of home baked toast.

Your taste is spot on, all the Chorelywood crap creates true shit toast. Bakers loaves can be good, but homebake is the best.

I confess I like toast more done than most do, but homebake typically has a higher moisture content and is heavier than shop bought. My wholemeal caramelises beautifully in the toaster and white goes right tasty. Consider:

- toasting from frozen.
- 'sperimenting with different thinckeneseses
- using different flour. For something lighter, I'd try T55 with a bit more yeast than normal

Worth the perseverance
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 28 March, 2023, 07:12:22 am
I often use it for breakfast things like kejriwal…

:thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 28 March, 2023, 07:19:17 am
As mentioned in the Gregg's Hot Cross Buns thread I thought I'd have a go at sourdough hot cross buns.

Cor! They look great, although you do need to work on your cross action.

When I made sourdough hot cross buns, I just adapted a standard recipe - think it might have been a Paul Hollywood one. Worked well. You just have to adjust the flour and liquid quantities slightly to compensate. Also up the butter content to make sure they’re lovely and soft.

I really need to get a new sourdough starter going. The last one was kicked off with an apple freshly picked from my garden, but I’ll have to wait a good few months if I want to do that again.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: perpetual dan on 28 March, 2023, 08:13:40 am


I really need to get a new sourdough starter going. The last one was kicked off with an apple freshly picked from my garden, but I’ll have to wait a good few months if I want to do that again.

I did one with an apple that just went progressively more off. My last starter was just on the kitchen counter for a couple of days (in open window weather) and got itself going. Though it eventually petered out - I was being busy, so a loaf would get bought, then Mrs Dan ate less bread for a bit. Eventually I was feeding it to keep it going more than I was using it, and evidently even that was not enough. So it’s been a tin of yeast for me lately.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 28 March, 2023, 10:27:43 am
Quote
I have decided that home made bread makes shit toast.

Used to have the same problem with my basic half wholemeal / half white loaves (not sourdough).
The crusts were so hard we risked cutting our mouths.
Now I add some oil to the mix and then when it comes out of the oven I wrap it in a teatowel and pop a bowl or silicon cover over it for a while.
The steam softens the crust, so the slices toast more evenly.
Toasted on an AGA of course...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 28 March, 2023, 03:15:05 pm
Regarding the Levain starter...
We binned ours before going to South America for 12 weeks, and kicked off a new one when we got back.

I'm following the Ken Forkish method.
It's started with nothing other than a 100% hydrated wholemeal flour and water slurry on day 1.
On day 2, you bin around 75% of it, and add more flour and water.
This continues for around 5 days, at which point the levain is possibly useable.
It took a bit longer here.
This will feel quite wasteful of flour as you ditch so much each day.

Once it's vigorous, the hydration is reduced and it's maintained at 80% hydration.
(Many recipies will maintain the levain at 100%, because that makes for easy calculation of the hydration of your final dough, but I just go with Ken's 80% because I don't then have to re-calculate his flour and water weights for specific hydrations.)

Once you've used some of the levain to bake with, the remainder goes in a ziplock bag inside a plastic tub in the fridge.
It can happily sit there for several weeks with no intervention or feeding.

It's a two-day thing to revive the levain out of it's hibernation, so needs a bit of forward planning.
A typical timeline would be:
Day1 AM: weigh out a specified quantity (typically 100g) of levain from the fridge into the leavain tub, feed with measured quantity of flour and water.  It will triple in volume towards the end of the day.
Day2 AM: It will have run out of food, and fallen back a bit. Bin all but 50g in the tub. Feed again with measured quantity of flour and water.  It will triple in volume towards the end of the day.
Day2 PM: Mix final dough using some of the levain, do folds, overnight bulk ferment 12 to 15 hours.  Remaining levain goes into fridge, replacing any left over from day1, becoming the new stored levain.
Day3 AM: Shape into loaves, into banneton, proof for around 3 to 4 hours. Bake around noon.

It does seem to stand being hibernated very well.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 28 March, 2023, 03:20:30 pm
needs a bit of forward planning

Alas, that's a significant stumbling block for me.

Quote
It does seem to stand being hibernated very well.

Presumably due to the lower hydration?

Think I need to get myself a copy of the Forkish book.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 21 April, 2023, 12:54:25 pm
Being a creature of habit, Saturday is normally Baking Day. Or at least Stretch and Fold and Proving Day. However, for one reason or another I found myself baking mid week, where I also found I didn't have enough strong white flour, so ended up going off piste and making a half white half wholemeal soudough loaf.

It is Very Nice.   
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 24 April, 2023, 10:41:51 pm
I have a mind to try sourdough baguettes. I've been algorithmed towards a recipe that looks do-able. I seem to recall Ham has a bit of a baguette baking habit,but anyone can answer:

I usually bake onto a great thick, like 10mm, lump of steel. Should I use that for baguettes too, or a regular thin baking tray?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 24 April, 2023, 11:03:58 pm
Not done baguettes myself, but don't they need to be done on those perforated U-shaped trays?
(Which in my case I do not have...)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 25 April, 2023, 09:00:21 am
That's what I use, I suspect you would struggle to baguettify without, you would get a stick, but there would be inevitable slump and not be the round thing you mostly associate. Thinking about it, that's actually how you often see a baguette au levain

(https://www.coof.be/1726-large_default/baguette-au-levain-farine-froment.jpg)

so really no reason not to do it.

To summarise what I do: I use T65, high yeast, multiple rise, high hydration (70+%) dough. I achieve a simalcrum of a baguette something like a french supermarket one/better than most English bought. I par bake and freeze.

ETA I would NOT bake on a thick steel, as you are chasing an all over, even, crust so I would not want much differential in baking condition between top and bottom. I think the perforations in the U-trays help in this respect. Be prepared to experiment, as ever (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=68753.msg2547005;topicseen#msg2547005  for eg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 25 April, 2023, 12:55:44 pm
Hmm. Food for thought.  The recipe I found suggests proving between either scrunched up floured tea towels or a couche. Baking is done without support.  I seem to recall that's how it was done when I did a one day course at E5 bakery too.

Here's the recipe I found
https://homegrownhappiness.com/easy-sourdough-baguette-recipe (https://homegrownhappiness.com/easy-sourdough-baguette-recipe)

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 25 April, 2023, 04:12:56 pm
As I said, I think the emphasis on the round sticky baguette is probably as much in the mind as anything. The qualities I was looking for when I was experimenting were: #1 The crust - I think the high temp bake with high moisture is prime in delivering this, likely as not will not be affected too much by the raising medium,  I see your recipe has this, too. #2 The crumb - this is where the raising medium plays a part. Here are two frog-like googles - yeast bake (https://www.google.com/search?q=baguette+au+lievre+coupe+en+mourceux&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiR-4LHpMX-AhUWmycCHRqNAiIQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=baguette+au+lievre+coupe+en+mourceux&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoECCMQJ1CoCViVM2DLQ2gBcAB4AIABUIgBgQaSAQIxMpgBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13aXotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=YelHZNHGMZa2nsEPmpqKkAI) and sourdough bake (https://www.google.com/search?q=baguette+au+levain+coupe+en+mourceux&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjm-cywo8X-AhUfmycCHbkvCWIQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=baguette+au+levain+coupe+en+mourceux&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzoECCMQJ1CGDFjnLWCfMmgAcAB4AIABkgGIAfIEkgEDOC4xmAEAoAEBqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWfAAQE&sclient=img&ei=JuhHZObOFZ-2nsEPud-kkAY). This shows the expected difference, in crumb with the sourdough having the big bubbles. I'm pleased to say mine have a high correlation in texture to the pictures, I don't see why you wouldn't do the same baking with sourdough. My experience is that T55 worked better than UK white, I experimented with all manner of types and mixes (Strong/plain etc) and concluded that T55 and T65 gave me the most authentic results.

OK, on to shape. The baguette tradition shape, which is what you are suggesting, is obviously a real thing. The balance between crust and crumb is a key part of what makes a baguette, for me, the tradition shape even as bought in boulangeries can be too thick in the middle and too thin at the end, but that doesn't stop it being great bread. The regular cylinder shape gives you those perfect circles to marry up with, say, an omelette fines herbes, or a moules mariniere.  Horses. Courses. Doovers.


ETA the T55 I've used most recently is this (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07H4NB328), I need to buy some more and I'm being tempted by this (https://www.bakerybits.co.uk/viron-tradition-francaise-t55-25kg) *WARNING* that last link is  a bakerybits one, the author cannot be held responsible for excessive clickage, your home is at risk if you do not keep up payments on a mortgage, serving suggestion only.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 26 April, 2023, 11:33:31 am
*WARNING* that last link is  a bakerybits one, the author cannot be held responsible for excessive clickage, your home is at risk if you do not keep up payments on a mortgage, serving suggestion only.

You are a very Bad Man and I am now several Moneys shorter than I was.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 27 April, 2023, 10:11:51 am
I par bake and freeze.

Can you elaborate a bit on that: I think I want to do the same.
I might want bake one fully, but remove the others to finish on another day.

- How long do you give the par-baking? Say as a percentage of the full bake time?
- How do you store the par-baked baguettes? Do you freeze them? Or leave them un-frozen for use in the near future?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 27 April, 2023, 10:33:19 am
The first bake is to "set" the loaf, so just on the turn to start to brown is perfect, which will depend on your oven. I am baking at 240 circotherm, ie higher than regulo 9.

In this picture the loaves on the right are perfect, the one one the left possibly slightly over what might be needed, this takes about 15 minutes in my oven https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=68753.msg2547005;topicseen#msg2547005 My Neff oven is pretty good at even cooking, I can see that if not, you might struggle. The loaf on the left I would probably use that day, I've not had issues with quality of crust baking it up again that same day, but equally you could finish it there and then.

When you remove from the oven and cool, they will become soft but not lose any volume, if you are using baguette tins like in the pic (FYI they are 2 x 2 tins, rather than 1 x 4), remove before they cool otherwise you may have removal issues - on occasion I have had mini-struggles based on the loaves integrating into the perforations, but that has a lot to do with the quality of preparation/resilience of the dough as you might expect. I freeze these and defrost before baking, often in the microwave. The second bake I do at 200 fan for about 15-20 minutes.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Legs on 01 May, 2023, 05:34:59 pm
I’m attempting Chelsea buns this evening.  Will report back.  The little bits of uncooked dough and fruity goodness that got snipped off the ends of the roll were certainly very scrummy.  Photos of end product if and only if success has been achieved!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Legs on 01 May, 2023, 07:21:19 pm
(https://www.cyclechat.net/attachments/ec1afde4-1dc2-40fd-a493-79c9e74e6cb0-jpeg.687853/)
Very nommy.  9-8=1.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 03 May, 2023, 08:52:05 am
Photos of end product if and only if success has been achieved!

Looks pretty successful to me - not the neatest but I bet they taste great!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Legs on 03 May, 2023, 10:10:15 am
Yeah, they tasted divine.  :thumbsup:  I used my breadmaker to make the dough and do the first prove for me.  Once in the tin, I did the second prove in my oven, which is an oven function I've never used before, but it seems to have worked really well.  I gave them 10 minutes at 200C and 5 more at 180C.  They were really light and fluffy inside.  :thumbsup:

The boys enjoyed helping me to measure out the ingredients, roll out the dough, spread the filling, and roll it up (which probably accounts for some of the wonkiness, but, if anything, being 'made with love' improved the eating experience!)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 03 May, 2023, 09:29:54 pm
Yes, they do look good!

Meantime, I have Ham to thank for this delivery today...

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52868553205_1b2b81a7f7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oxP9Xp)
Baguette Stuffs (https://flic.kr/p/2oxP9Xp) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 03 May, 2023, 09:43:32 pm
 :demon:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 14 May, 2023, 03:32:10 pm
Turkish bread today, high hydration, no knead, high yeast content. Unusual glaze: tablespoon of flour with 20ml water combine, add 70ml boiling water, stir, add egg yolk.

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjvOBZ3bK3qmD8VviWOibm_3TKipU0Qm9RVrngtuSQ7h_PIVg8-8BmLY75nivJOWq3cAN4oGFGrnxHBsJAD5ZTp4YVH46OOJONr5VW_e4Q-Ingi2_iTdTz6G4E9Io1v35POr_BLMmUDEb9mvNZPp8NR-18MM1qBAFr_Br3k9u1KvyY1-Gn-JkNekH25/s1024/PXL_20230514_130355582.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 20 May, 2023, 06:53:02 pm
This is my second attempt at baguettes, the first one being made with rather ordinary quick fermented play-dough. (They were surprisingly OK!)
These are Pointage En Bac. T65 flour, 75% hydrated, overnight slow ferment in fridge. Happy with these. I need to be a bit bolder and let them darken a bit more next time.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52912385728_99a6bc251f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oBFNQy)
Baguettes (https://flic.kr/p/2oBFNQy) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

Recipe here:
https://dawghousebakery.com/2021/06/10/recipe-chef-markus-farbingers-pointage-en-bac-slow-rise-baguettes/
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 20 May, 2023, 09:57:53 pm
Nice
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 20 May, 2023, 10:11:00 pm
Looks good, I'm impressed you got the stick even-ness right, I found that quite challenging to start (although there was normally one that looked pretty good ;) )

Looks like you've got authentic taste and texture there, too, congrats (interpolated from the cross section).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 21 May, 2023, 08:44:41 pm
I watched some YouTube videos demonstrating the pre-shape and final shaping of the dough.
That was the main purpose of my first effort, the dough was a quick-n-dirty effort per the video linked below, but I wanted to practice the technique.

This is the video I based my first effort on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m08i8oXpFB0

This shows how to pre-shape then shape the things, and also shows how to use the couche and planchette.
Once you've learned the technique, then you can start to play with fancier doughs.

Dawghouse also has a recipe based on the Ken Forkish Poolish dough, (pretty much what I use for Pizza dough) which I may try next:
https://dawghousebakery.com/2021/11/05/baguettes-using-ken-forkish-white-bread-with-poolish-recipe/

I'm having a lot of fun with this!


Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 13 June, 2023, 01:48:56 pm
My final post on the subject of baguettes, I promise!
(Unless I do some sourdough ones, which is a whole different thing!)

This is my third attempt, and the best yet. Same recipe as last time, an overnight slow-ferment in the fridge "Pointage En Bac".
But I was a bit bolder and let them fire a bit longer, and they do benefit from that.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52971649409_b615b09bbb_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oGVxSa)
Moar baguettes (https://flic.kr/p/2oGVxSa) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 19 June, 2023, 07:29:44 pm
Ok, this is really really the last post I'll make about baguettes!  Promise!

Today's attempt is a sourdough recipe, again from the Dawghouse Bakery.  This is a hybrid dough, using a small amount of yeast as well as the levain.  25% of the flour is coming from the levain. I opted for the 12 hour overnight ferment, so the yeast quantity was 1g!

Bit of a schoolboy error where I forgot to turn down the oven temp between the steaming phase and the dry-bake phase, so they are a little well-fired, but none the worse for it.

The sourdough gives a rather more chewy bread, but still with the proper baguette crispy crust. The long ferment and levain content gives a bit more flavour than the plain white, but not so much as to overpower your sammich.  Happy with this recipe, and will do it again.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52986764944_096dc72b54_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oJg2bQ)
Sourdough_baguettes (https://flic.kr/p/2oJg2bQ) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52987001400_50d43277df_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oJhetE)
Sourdough baguettes (https://flic.kr/p/2oJhetE) by Ron Lowe (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62966413@N04/), on Flickr

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 19 June, 2023, 10:08:26 pm
They look amazing!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 05 August, 2023, 04:32:40 pm
Just back from Scout camp, where I managed to have a go at sourdough bread in Dutch oven over a fire.  Being a fire, the temperature was much harder to control, but overall the results were on the winning side.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc9n1DZyIFXYaFGGpa9Nr9nWWcfjXwBwczZtGsvNS--hNWTLwz7yGFi38riw-nGeNehcvh6HmDMRb75qbixCiHZ5LNEBRkjuBDbMVWt-fHKFQf36n-zv=w600)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc-A_bgUCO5Y0pICid2mLcT6v-7bcmO-HVtIvjUPnqYjx2ifgnVk49LBoWPmy0hYAygMBlXuHUMQIrJEoeOjnveEUKBEhOku1cUmgc5y_EYZ62jDEuXy=w600)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AIL4fc-mgXR9vRRb4rqLf0M5W7E0moAyLeRsGJmHSec_EV7My1Gdc7IwQFoNiN-mGsg4TLWGfuKW0cud373tlbvLA33bdM3C-Bz_FsZQ31aDZRQ2Z4DZwwgV=w600)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 05 August, 2023, 05:24:07 pm
We made some bread on a fire at one of our re-enactments a few years ago.
The bread was in a small cauldron, which was placed inside a larger one, supported so as not to touch the larger one directly. I can't remember what we used as a 'trivet'.
I was worried that I'd not be able to get the bread out of the cauldron, but it was fine. Not bad bread either.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 05 August, 2023, 06:08:20 pm
That's a pretty decent effort for something so temperature-uncontrolled!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 18 August, 2023, 07:25:13 pm
After killing off my sourdough starter earlier this year, I finally got round to kicking off a new one this week. Used the Paul Hollywood method, with grated apple mixed in at the start - picked straight from the garden. To say it has been a success is an understatement - within a couple of days it was bubbling away merrily.

I fed it again this morning and this is what it looked like just a couple of hours later, the hyperactive little bastard - the elastic band is the level it was at post-feed:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53125846553_e8ab36a076.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oWxRiB)
Sourdough starter (https://flic.kr/p/2oWxRiB) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

It's not even a particularly warm day today!

Made a sponge earlier with the intention of making the dough in the morning but it's already at the point where it needs using before it goes over, so I'll have to move to the next stage this evening - might be an idea to put it in the fridge overnight.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 14 September, 2023, 10:30:33 am
I tried an experiment this morning. Some sourdough influencer I follow on socials is always banging on about baking from a cold start, ie not preheating the oven. I know Ham otp does the same, as he has mentioned here before, but that's with standard yeasted loaves. I thought I'd give it a go and I think the evidence is that it's a resounding success...

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53186600190_21d5f817de.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2p2Vef7)
Sourdough (https://flic.kr/p/2p2Vef7) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

I baked it Dutch oven style in my Lodge cast iron pan for 50 minutes (total oven time), taking the top off for the last 10 minutes. Looks like it has baked pretty well but I haven't cut into it yet. Certainly no issues with rising.

I think next time I might give it another 10 minutes but I'm convinced of the merits of cold-start baking - it meant I could shove it in the oven when I woke up at 5.30 and go back to bed for a bit while it did its thing, no hanging around waiting for the oven to get up to temperature.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 03 November, 2023, 06:34:38 pm
That ^^ looks like a win to me. I'm convinced there's shedloads of stuff we do because we do it that way, for no good reason: "Don't eat before going swimming" I seem to remember was drummed into me as a child,  same sort of thing.

Anyhow,  I habitually put malt into standard white loaves for flavour, and sometimes into wholemeal, because, why not? The strength of flavour of the flour (and, OK, the rye and caraway I add) demote it to a more insignificant role. Actually, the "you must put sugar into bread" is another of those things some people do for  no good reason. Today I thought, "what if I used molasses in wholemeal?" I have to tell you the result is excellent, slightly darker but improved flavour and consistency, I recommend it to the house. It helps if you have molasses hanging around, molasses sugar might work, too. I used about 40g  in an 800g flour loaf (at 65% hydration)

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgyJbkBiN7tbegGkqjWUbBPsH6kC1zPwMEgM7WK3TTZh3mKcxU968qWjYB4aD9OXqukxgiPRAG9Z9Zv2kgGC9PzhHIEZpfreHKOJDV26g9UahuhijLGoTgrlMuOXgxWdx7gTnwKngHrNdq9rcczApIaGbzx1gK4qX_OJv9ajQd9dIXLVMJqviGNDXHnXM8/s1020/PXL_20231103_183015614.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Basil on 03 November, 2023, 06:59:01 pm
I don't have a bread maker.  Just a good machine with a BFO dough hook.
I'm now using, almost exclusively, spelt flour.
Soooooo tasty.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 06 November, 2023, 09:53:23 pm
Actually, the "you must put sugar into bread" is another of those things some people do for  no good reason. Today I thought, "what if I used molasses in wholemeal?" I have to tell you the result is excellent, slightly darker but improved flavour and consistency, I recommend it to the house. It helps if you have molasses hanging around, molasses sugar might work, too. I used about 40g  in an 800g flour loaf (at 65% hydration)

I remember a recipe from BBC Good Food magazine that I first made in the late 90s for a Russian-style dark rye bread that was made with molasses. Also had orange juice in it IIRC. And caraway seeds. It was bloody lovely. Wish I'd kept that recipe. I've just done a bit of googling and come up with several similar things (eg Borodinsky bread (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borodinsky_bread)) but nothing quite the same as that recipe. Like most rye breads it packed a punch on the flavour front, but unlike most rye breads it had a soft, open texture.

In other bread news, I had a hankering at the weekend to recreate a breakfast recipe I once tried in a restaurant - lightly toasted split muffins filled with bacon and egg. So I made some muffins. They were OK but a couple of things weren't quite right - the recipe said to dust them with semolina before putting them on the griddle but I didn't have semolina so used polenta instead. Bad idea. It was too coarse and gave the muffins an unpleasantly gritty crunchiness on the outside. The other problem, a rather odd one, was that they came out cooked in the middle but underbaked and doughy round the edges. I need to work on the timings and temperature. The recipe said to put the griddle on a "very low" heat, but I think perhaps it was too low.

They were still better than anything you'd get in a shop though. Or that restaurant. Will definitely be trying them again.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 06 November, 2023, 09:57:09 pm
That ^^ looks like a win to me. I'm convinced there's shedloads of stuff we do because we do it that way, for no good reason: "Don't eat before going swimming" I seem to remember was drummed into me as a child,  same sort of thing.

"Don't drive on the railroad track" (https://youtu.be/ZHpXxAW3p_o?si=g2bXiFZHlXi_3WX1)

I'm definitely a convert to cold-start baking. Several subsequent attempts have had similar positive results.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 25 November, 2023, 01:10:53 pm
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiMohQLCylwX7JZKLD6XaVhPXN6cWb0IGIOKNPmmOcdjwdUWToLdNbNJK7Wgh0DEuB1EhtDzScZHfngrcI36e7mPA2mgpsAgLXg_M0Fy-uD3u1nnkw8RZCrVJce6YJ-d0rZO6PRi2zgdkypYwoHoLiBh2JnuMDJnegDgqJOP2Cu7nCck4kPWoH6rhY1Yyw/s1020/PXL_20231125_124619321.jpg)

Riffing a little more on the theme, I added marmite to the mix (white shown for colour balance), which further improves a rather tasty loaf. My everyday bake used to be 10% rye and 20% spelt, these days it's just bog standard wholemeal.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 28 November, 2023, 03:03:23 pm
What do people recommend flour-wise these days, particularly for sourdough baking? I'm going to order in a big sack so I don't have to keep topping up with small bags from the supermarket.

I've ordered from Shipton Mill before and it was fine so could go to them again but interested to know what others are using.

Just after plain white for now but any other recommendations also welcome.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 28 November, 2023, 04:27:37 pm
We buy white and wholemeal from our local wholefood shop (Alston).
They buy bulk from Shipton Mill and bag it up into 1.5 kg bags.
50:50 for everyday bread (plus a bit of Orkney beremeal for nostalgia)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: SteveC on 28 November, 2023, 05:46:21 pm
I use Shipton Mill sometimes.
I've also had success with Dove's Farm and with Stoats.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 29 November, 2023, 01:13:27 pm
I had good experience (loadsa protien!) with Marriage's Very Strong White Bread flour, which I used to get in 16kg bags.  More recently I've been using whatever catches my eye at Mr Tesco's Emporium of Toothy Comestibles, such as Matthews Cotswold Strong White, which was quite good and Allinson Strong White, which doesn't seem to work quite as well. Or I need to tweak my recipe as the loaves seem to be a bit less structured, spreading out when I bake and harder to form.

What do people use for stoneground flour?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 29 November, 2023, 02:25:39 pm
More recently I've been using whatever catches my eye at Mr Tesco's Emporium of Toothy Comestibles, such as Matthews Cotswold Strong White, which was quite good and Allinson Strong White, which doesn't seem to work quite as well.

It's Mr Cohen's Emporium, shurely?

Anyway, ordinary Allinson's is defnitely not strong enough for long ferments but the V.Strong stuff seems OKish. Haven't tried Matthews but did spot it on the shelf. Might give it a go.

Messrs Marks and Sparks stock an own-brand* V.Strong flour in their emporium, which is decent enough, but I'm mainly after getting a big sack for the convenience factor.


*I'm still disappointed that they dropped the St Michael label.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 29 November, 2023, 03:47:09 pm
*I'm still disappointed that they dropped the St Michael label.
Typical UK retail problems. They squeezed St Michael till it just wasn't worth his while supplying them, and Gabriel was too busy blowing his own trumpet, so they had to make their own.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 29 November, 2023, 11:17:15 pm
If you don't mind using flour out of date (I have done without too much issue) Bakery Bits sale stuff can be an excellent source https://www.bakerybits.co.uk/sale - theirs tends to be top notch and well described IME.


I quite like Marriages strong white, their Canadian is almost 15%, as it the Waitrose branded (prolly the same?). Wholemeal, my go to these days out of sheer laziness is again the Waitrose Canadian, it's OK, good value but i wouldn't go as far as to recommend it, not much character. Adding caraway seeds and molasses fixes that  ;)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 11 December, 2023, 11:37:09 pm
As mentioned in t'other thread...

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53391764111_ed088ec247_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pm3Kk6)
St Lucy’s Day saffron buns (https://flic.kr/p/2pm3Kk6) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

They're made with the standard sweet dough that's used as the base for countless other Nordic bakes (cinnamon buns etc) but with the addition of a whole flipping gram of saffron - which is steeped in vodka for 24 hours to really bring out the colour. And I put loads of cardamom in, because I like cardamom.

This is what the raw dough looked like - love that warm golden saffron colour:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53391947653_557e596403_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pm4FTB)
St Lucy’s Day saffron buns (https://flic.kr/p/2pm4FTB) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

They come in a whole range of shapes. The traditional one is called lussekatt (Lucy's cat) but this S shape (called julgalt) is apparently the one that is most common in Sweden. Once you've shaped them, you pop a raisin into each tail end of the S (I didn't have raisins so used sultanas):

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53391764051_600ba89f57_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pm3Kj4)
St Lucy’s Day saffron buns (https://flic.kr/p/2pm3Kj4) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

I made them to take into the office tomorrow but couldn't resist trying one, of course. They're really good, if I say so myself. Light and fluffy with a nice chewy texture, and not excessively sweet (although there's a variant filled with vanilla sugar paste, which I might try next time).

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53391764001_36e32f3af7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pm3Kic)
St Lucy’s Day saffron buns (https://flic.kr/p/2pm3Kic) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: JonBuoy on 12 December, 2023, 07:59:59 pm
This should probably be in the muppet thread but...I set the breadmaker going earlier this evening to make some pizza dough while I was 'enjoying' myself on the turbo-trainer.  Unfortunately I somehow managed to forget to add the water  ::-)  I didn't discover this until it went beep to tell me that my dough was ready.  At that point I wrote off the idea of pizza for tea, added the water, and set it going again.

An hour later I had a quick peep to see how it was doing.  I found a circular pool of extremely sloppy wallpaper paste surrounded by a large amount of caked flour.  I have mixed it all together and restarted the dough program.  I hope it works out OK but really don't want it to be too good as I don't want to feel obliged to go through the same rigmarole to recreate it in the future.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: T42 on 13 December, 2023, 09:59:53 am
As mentioned in t'other thread...

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53391764111_ed088ec247_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pm3Kk6)
St Lucy’s Day saffron buns (https://flic.kr/p/2pm3Kk6) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr


Just looked her up on Wiki. Apparently she was blinded before being executed and was frequently represented in paintings with her eyes on a plate.  I reckon that's why your receipt calls for raisins in the swirls.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 13 December, 2023, 10:32:16 am
Just looked her up on Wiki. Apparently she was blinded before being executed and was frequently represented in paintings with her eyes on a plate.  I reckon that's why your receipt calls for raisins in the swirls.

Crikey! That sounds a plausible explanation, although some of the other traditional shapes also have raisins inserted in the swirls and the number of swirls varies according to the shape.

This is what Magnus Nilsson has to say on the matter:
"This sweet saffron wheat dough is rolled out into many shapes, all having different names. The most common version - and the one favoured by industry, I guess for its simplicity - is the julgalt, or Christmas boar. This is often wrongly named lussekatt, or 'Saint Lucy's Cat', which, as you can plainly see from the illustration on the right, is a completely different shape."

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53395153459_f16946f04b_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pmm7S8)
St Lucy’s Day bun shapes (https://flic.kr/p/2pmm7S8) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

None of these other shapes even exist according to the internet. If you look up "lussekatt" you only get pictures of the S-shaped buns.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 04 January, 2024, 10:26:46 pm
Something is going wrong with my bread (the same bread I've been making for months) at the moment. It's not got the same oven spring and the inside is all kinda doughy and tacky. I don't understand why.  :'(
Title: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 05 January, 2024, 07:42:44 am
Something is going wrong with my bread (the same bread I've been making for months) at the moment. It's not got the same oven spring and the inside is all kinda doughy and tacky. I don't understand why.  :'(

That doesn’t sound good! Bread is still largely a mystery to me, I confess, and I’m yet to learn how to get predictable results. I mean, I generally get good results these days but it’s always pot luck exactly how it will turn out and sometimes it still inexplicably goes wrong.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 05 January, 2024, 09:41:44 am
What I baked in December - I think these all count as bread:

Panettone:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53444071800_973eee9435_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pqEQzN)
Adventures in baking, December 2023 (https://flic.kr/p/2pqEQzN) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

Toscabullar:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53443979659_0b80607899_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pqEnca)
Adventures in baking, December 2023 (https://flic.kr/p/2pqEnca) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

Bagels already:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53444071830_d83f385ca5_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pqEQAj)
Adventures in baking, December 2023 (https://flic.kr/p/2pqEQAj) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

Was particularly pleased with how the panettone turned out - didn't quite get the rise I wanted but that's largely down to running out of time and needing to get it in the oven. It's quite an elaborate process, takes about three days from start to finish (it's made with a sourdough starter and very heavily enriched with egg yolks, sugar and butter, so proving takes a looooong time), but it's well worth the effort as home-made panettone is infinitely superior to anything you can buy in the shops.

Stage 1 dough - takes a lot of working but ends up with the most gloriously silky texture:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53444071775_65585337a4_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pqEQzn)
Adventures in baking, December 2023 (https://flic.kr/p/2pqEQzn) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

Stage 2 dough, yet more egg yolks and butter added, along with fruit and essences, shaped and placed in traditional panettone cases:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53443657991_24c2af7c95_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pqCHza)
Adventures in baking, December 2023 (https://flic.kr/p/2pqCHza) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

The Milanese tradition is to cut a cross in the top and add a knob of butter just before baking:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53443796683_871c4d1074_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pqDqNp)
Adventures in baking, December 2023 (https://flic.kr/p/2pqDqNp) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

The finished article, prior to dusting with icing sugar:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53442733947_742334bfe6_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pqxYTn)
Adventures in baking, December 2023 (https://flic.kr/p/2pqxYTn) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

Buon appetito:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53442759492_f3d079835b_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pqy7tN)
Adventures in baking, December 2023 (https://flic.kr/p/2pqy7tN) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr

I think I've posted about Tosca buns here before. They're like cinnamon buns but filled with almond sugar paste instead of cinnamon and topped with toffee and almonds. This was my best attempt yet but I still haven't quite mastered the topping - think I made the toffee too thick so it didn't properly coat the buns. Tasted divine though.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53443979609_2dd6b131a5_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pqEnbi)
Adventures in baking, December 2023 (https://flic.kr/p/2pqEnbi) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53443796603_2e7b5f0856_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pqDqM2)Adventures in baking, December 2023 (https://flic.kr/p/2pqDqM2) by citoyen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/103760266@N08/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: orienteer on 05 January, 2024, 11:28:30 am
Something is going wrong with my bread (the same bread I've been making for months) at the moment. It's not got the same oven spring and the inside is all kinda doughy and tacky. I don't understand why.  :'(

Had the same problem recently. Eventually I reduced the amount of water added from 300ml to 260ml, and it solved the problem.

Flour producers may have changed something. I use a 50/50 mixture of white and wholemeal, in a Panasonic breadmaker.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 05 January, 2024, 02:49:43 pm
Quote
Tosca buns
They do look good.
Just once I was at a local cafe/tearoom run by a charity when they had toscatorte and it was so delicious.
Hope they make it again sometime.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 05 January, 2024, 02:51:06 pm
Has anyone tried substituting ordinary sea salt for a low sodium version in their day-to-day bread?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 05 January, 2024, 03:20:53 pm
Quote
Tosca buns
They do look good.
Just once I was at a local cafe/tearoom run by a charity when they had toscatorte and it was so delicious.
Hope they make it again sometime.

Or you could try making it yourself...
https://www.swedishfood.com/swedish-food-recipes-biscuits-cakes/202-tosca-cake

This recipe attempts to answer the obvious question: why Tosca? One suggestion is that the recipe was originally inspired by almond cakes from Tuscany, which sounds plausible.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 05 January, 2024, 04:21:42 pm
I did google it and have a recipe, and learnt a bit of history.
But with only two to feed, I don't make a lot of cakes/tarts, especially big ones.
I will get round to it - when we have eaten all the Ecclefechan tart in the freezer....
Now to google toscabullar
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 05 January, 2024, 04:30:03 pm
What I baked in December

Dix points ;)

Has anyone tried substituting ordinary sea salt for a low sodium version in their day-to-day bread?

No reason why it shouldn't work, salt does nothing for the bread beyond flavour (actually inhibiting rising to an extent)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 05 January, 2024, 04:32:40 pm
Something is going wrong with my bread (the same bread I've been making for months) at the moment. It's not got the same oven spring and the inside is all kinda doughy and tacky. I don't understand why.  :'(

Simple answer would be it's a different flour, but that sounds to radically different to account for that.

If it is yeast baking, it's typical sign your yeast is less than active. Add more to use it up, and change? Other possibility is your thermostat is out of kilter,  bake higher temp or longer
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 05 January, 2024, 04:45:08 pm
Now to google toscabullar

I did an image search a while ago to get an idea what they're supposed to look like but the results were so wildly variable that it was no help at all.  ;D

'Bullar' is just Swedish for buns. The recipe I use suggests making the 'snail' form, like traditional cinnamon buns (kanelbullar), but there are lots of other ways of rolling, folding and knotting the dough. The differences are mostly cosmetic. All the recipes in that section of my book are based on the same basic sweet wheat dough, flavoured with cardamom.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 05 January, 2024, 04:47:32 pm
Thanks, citoyen
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 05 January, 2024, 04:54:23 pm
Quote
salt does nothing for the bread beyond flavour
I always thought salt was needed to "set" the gluten so the dough didn't collapse when baked.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: CAMRAMan on 05 January, 2024, 05:03:36 pm
Has anyone tried substituting ordinary sea salt for a low sodium version in their day-to-day bread?

I've used nothing but low-sodium salt since getting my breadmaker in August without a problem.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 05 January, 2024, 05:18:34 pm
Quote
salt does nothing for the bread beyond flavour
I always thought salt was needed to "set" the gluten so the dough didn't collapse when baked.

That's an easy answer: No, there for flavour only
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 05 January, 2024, 05:26:24 pm
Quote
salt does nothing for the bread beyond flavour
I always thought salt was needed to "set" the gluten so the dough didn't collapse when baked.

Anyone* who has ever accidentally forgotten to add the salt to their dough and yet has found it turned out fine, if rather bland, will be able to tell you that salt is not necessary to make a perfectly acceptable loaf.

Tbh, I think the inhibiting effect of salt on yeast is also overstated - at least in the quantities it is normally used. Sugar has a similar effect (osmotic stress on yeast cells), which is one of the reasons very sweet doughs can be sluggish at the proving stage.


*BTDTGTTS
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 05 January, 2024, 05:41:36 pm

*BTDTGTTS


T-Shirt? I have the Burberry Trench, the Gucci loafers AND the little black dress.

My experience is that the impact is most noticeable on dried yeast than fresh, and more so when it is getting old (for years i didn't keep it in the fridge which seems to reduce aging significantly.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 05 January, 2024, 06:36:20 pm
@cityoen those Tosca buns sound bloody amazing! Got a recipe?

@orienteer, I did think that when I started the dough it looked a bit wetter than I'm used to, but not crazily wet.

@Ham it's the 'same' flour. Although given it's merely Sainsbo's own strong white and stoneground wholemeal, it could well be different flour in the same packet.
Bloody annoying whatever it is.

@Ham, you keep dried yeast in the fridge?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 05 January, 2024, 08:01:27 pm
Thanks all. Low sodium salt will be tried.
But added after the first proving as is my custom - gives the yeast a chance to get working.

And I know nobody asked me, but I do keep dried yeast in the fridge.

Off topic, I read recently that if a breadmaker machine is set up on delay, and your kitchen is below 21C, the dough may get too cold to mix and rise properly. I've never used a breadmaker, so this might be rubbish.
And who keeps a kitchen at 21C overnight these days?
When I had a solid fuel AGA, yes. But in this penny-pinching electric era no chance.

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 05 January, 2024, 10:36:16 pm

@Ham it's the 'same' flour. Although given it's merely Sainsbo's own strong white and stoneground wholemeal, it could well be different flour in the same packet.
Bloody annoying whatever it is.

@Ham, you keep dried yeast in the fridge?

Fridge for sure (Alinsons tins), never used to, but read the side of the tin one time and have never looked back. I used to up the amount as the tin got to the end, don't have to now.

I doubt the change in flour will affect the bread much, what you are describing is just too much moisture, so temperature would be my prime suspect
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 06 January, 2024, 10:44:37 am
Hmm interesting. I'm only using the yeast that comes in sachets so it shouldn't be that old either.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 06 January, 2024, 10:56:39 am
I only use sachet yeast - I find the stuff in tins goes off too quickly even if kept in the fridge. Probably not an issue if you use it up quickly but most of my bread is sourdough.

Btw, I highly recommend Borwick's yeast from M&S - always very lively.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 06 January, 2024, 10:59:22 am
I use the Doves Farm dried yeast which appears to be vacuum packed, so just in the store cupboard until opened.
Then into an airtight pot and onto a shelf in the fridge.  I make bread 2-3 times a week but it still takes quite a few weeks to use the pot up.  Never had a problem with the yeast.
Can't buy fresh yeast anywhere near here.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 06 January, 2024, 12:00:15 pm
Can't buy fresh yeast anywhere near here.

Supermarkets with in-store bakeries will often sell you fresh yeast. They don't advertise the fact, though - you have to ask the baker for it. I rarely bother but I have got it from the local Morrisons on occasion. The baker buys it in large blocks from which they will be happy to cut off a piece of the size you require. But you have to be in early because the baker will have clocked off for the day by lunchtime. Last time I bought some they charged me something ridiculous like 20p for 50g.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: The Family Cyclist on 06 January, 2024, 08:59:10 pm
Right technically pizza but its a kinda bread

I was lucky enough to get a pizza stone for Christmas and the very strict instructions say preheat stone and then put the pizza on. Oh great and wise assembled how's the best way to get fairly sticky pizza dough from the large chopping board I make them on to the stone?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 06 January, 2024, 09:31:56 pm
Hand stretch the dough over a floured surface.
Once it's about the right size, hand transfer it to a paddle that has a generous coating of polenta or semolina as a lubricant.
Add the toppings at this point.

Shoogle the topped pizza onto the hot stone and cook.
Even the most wet sticky doughs will slide off a paddle with a good covering of polenta.
I'm using a poolish based dough at 75% hydration, which is very soft and stretches very readily, but is a bit delicate and takes careful handling.

Never attempt to transfer a topped pizza other than by sliding it off a polenta'd paddle.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 06 January, 2024, 10:24:07 pm
Quote
Supermarkets with in-store bakeries will often sell you fresh yeast
I had forgotten that.
But the nearest supermarket is a 40mile round trip, so I tend to restock at whichever one I'm passing on my way home from doing something more interesting! Which usually means after any in-store bakeries have finished for the day.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 06 January, 2024, 10:38:17 pm
Right technically pizza but its a kinda bread

I was lucky enough to get a pizza stone for Christmas and the very strict instructions say preheat stone and then put the pizza on. Oh great and wise assembled how's the best way to get fairly sticky pizza dough from the large chopping board I make them on to the stone?

I make mine on a silicone sheet and then put that on the stone (or steel in my case). ICBA with having polenta all over the kitchen floor. (I used a baking sheet as the peel and put the silicone sheet and pizza on using that).
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jaded on 06 January, 2024, 11:28:51 pm
I use the Doves Farm dried yeast which appears to be vacuum packed, so just in the store cupboard until opened.
Then into an airtight pot and onto a shelf in the fridge.  I make bread 2-3 times a week but it still takes quite a few weeks to use the pot up.  Never had a problem with the yeast.
Can't buy fresh yeast anywhere near here.

I use that too.

My white bread is wonderful, my wholemeal varies and the worst ones could be used to build houses. Does yeast vary in effectiveness by type of flour?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: The Family Cyclist on 07 January, 2024, 07:52:24 am
Hand stretch the dough over a floured surface.
Once it's about the right size, hand transfer it to a paddle that has a generous coating of polenta or semolina as a lubricant.
Add the toppings at this point.

Shoogle the topped pizza onto the hot stone and cook.
Even the most wet sticky doughs will slide off a paddle with a good covering of polenta.
I'm using a poolish based dough at 75% hydration, which is very soft and stretches very readily, but is a bit delicate and takes careful handling.

Never attempt to transfer a topped pizza other than by sliding it off a polenta'd paddle.

Appears I may need a paddle then. Other then then the ones I is for propelling my canoe and kayak obviously

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 07 January, 2024, 08:04:47 am

My white bread is wonderful, my wholemeal varies and the worst ones could be used to build houses. Does yeast vary in effectiveness by type of flour?

Well, yes, but not so much to cause a radical difference, radical difference is down to the flour itself. One way to make wholemeal lighter is to use 10-15% white. I'd also look at kneading technique, but that may be a long shot
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 07 January, 2024, 08:45:15 am
Quote
My white bread is wonderful, my wholemeal varies and the worst ones could be used to build houses. Does yeast vary in effectiveness by type of flour?

Our day-to-day bread is about 50:50 white and wholemeal.
But I also regularly make barley buns (50:50 white and beremeal), pitta from flour with bits in and pizza from white pizza flour.
I use the same ratio of yeast to flour for all of them, and start them all off the same way.
I'm not scientific about it and I don't like sourdough bread enough to be bothered with making it.
But I do like to know what is in my food, and avoid the additives found in most shop bread, which  always has far too much sugar anyway.

We don't have artisan bakeries around here.
Which reminds me: It has always puzzled/annoyed me that bakeries that sell unwrapped bread don't have to put up signs saying what ingredients are used.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 January, 2024, 08:54:40 am

My white bread is wonderful, my wholemeal varies and the worst ones could be used to build houses. Does yeast vary in effectiveness by type of flour?

Well, yes, but not so much to cause a radical difference, radical difference is down to the flour itself. One way to make wholemeal lighter is to use 10-15% white. I'd also look at kneading technique, but that may be a long shot

He uses a bread machine (supplied by me). I'll have a word with the machine about its kneading technique  ;D

I've not used my bread machine for a while because I got a sourdough culture on the go to do some baking over the holidays. I've just remembered that there is a sourdough setting in my machine so I'll give it a go and see what happens.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jaded on 07 January, 2024, 09:51:48 am
I do the white flour thing, as that has been recommended by several people.

The wholemeal bread all quite edible, just needs a bit more application to find the slices on the plate.  ;D
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 January, 2024, 09:59:04 am
I do the white flour thing, as that has been recommended by several people.

The wholemeal bread all quite edible, just needs a bit more application to find the slices on the plate.  ;D

If you fancy a drive over to Shipton Mill let me know. A sack of Canadian Strong is £10 if you buy it from the mill. They've also got some really nice malted brown flour, seed mixes etc, and fresh yeast
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jaded on 07 January, 2024, 10:04:55 am
I do the white flour thing, as that has been recommended by several people.

The wholemeal bread all quite edible, just needs a bit more application to find the slices on the plate.  ;D

If you fancy a drive over to Shipton Mill let me know. A sack of Canadian Strong is £10 if you buy it from the mill. They've also got some really nice malted brown flour, seed mixes etc, and fresh yeast

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 07 January, 2024, 11:30:53 am
Does yeast vary in effectiveness by type of flour?

Perhaps more by type of dough - pro bakers use different yeasts for sweet and savoury dough.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 January, 2024, 12:08:45 pm
Does yeast vary in effectiveness by type of flour?

Perhaps more by type of dough - pro bakers use different yeasts for sweet and savoury dough.

I've noticed when generating a sourdough culture that flour type matters hugely. Dark rye sends it nuts.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 07 January, 2024, 12:25:20 pm
Oh yes, my starter always goes hyperactive if I feed it with rye flour (white or dark)

It also does better on wholemeal wheat flour than white.

Some people say you should feed it only with the same flour you use to make your bread, which sounds logical but mine seems happy enough being fed whatever I have in the cupboard.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 January, 2024, 12:44:49 pm
I've run out of rye and will await Jaded to chauffeur me down to Shipton Mill  ;D

I quite like the little bit of rye (well, it ends up as 33%) in the white loaf. It adds a bit of flavour, consistency and colour.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 07 January, 2024, 02:04:25 pm

My white bread is wonderful, my wholemeal varies and the worst ones could be used to build houses. Does yeast vary in effectiveness by type of flour?

Well, yes, but not so much to cause a radical difference, radical difference is down to the flour itself. One way to make wholemeal lighter is to use 10-15% white. I'd also look at kneading technique, but that may be a long shot

He uses a bread machine (supplied by me). I'll have a word with the machine about its kneading technique  ;D

I've not used my bread machine for a while because I got a sourdough culture on the go to do some baking over the holidays. I've just remembered that there is a sourdough setting in my machine so I'll give it a go and see what happens.

As it goes, I was speculating to myself that it was a bread machine that might be not kneading as it should, as it is dead 'ard not to knead sufficiently by hand (and not to notice)  ;)  - but  a longshot, just something that might be contributing.

Homebake wholemeal is much denser than shop bought, maybe that's the simple answer?

It's also curious that while rye will feed a sourdough, it does jack for yeast bread, creating a much denser loaf.

Title: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 07 January, 2024, 02:27:56 pm
Rye is good at feeding yeast but it has very weak gluten so can’t form the structure needed to give a good rise.

This is why I use rye for dusting my banneton - it makes it much less likely that the dough will stick. (Rice flour is even better for this as it has no gluten at all.)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 14 January, 2024, 06:51:39 pm
@orienteer, I did think that when I started the dough it looked a bit wetter than I'm used to, but not crazily wet.

@Ham it's the 'same' flour. Although given it's merely Sainsbo's own strong white and stoneground wholemeal, it could well be different flour in the same packet.
Bloody annoying whatever it is.

@Ham, you keep dried yeast in the fridge?

Made bread this weekend. Paid attention, did experiments:
1.Reduced the water from 400ml to 375ml (this is the volume I ended up with when I had that malted bread flour to use up a couple of years back).
2. I ended up opening a fresh bag of strong white as I ran out, so one loaf was mostly old and the other was mostly new packet. I did notice a visible increase in the wetness of the dough made with the older packet compared with the new, so I kneaded a bit more flour into that one as well.
3. I got my Chef Alarm out and measured the temperature. This <2year old oven has always read a bit lower than advertised but this morning it was a whole 25C lower! So the recipe calls for 245C, I usually have the knob set to 255C but this morning it was 230C.  ::-)

Anyhoo. The upshot of all that:
Loaves were not all gummy and full of Swiss cheese holes. Win!
They were a bit well fired on top so I maybe don't need to go the whole hog up to 270C on the knob.
They look like they should be a whole lot more edible than the last lot, but I would say the were still a little on the short side, so next time I will try a new box of yeast.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 14 January, 2024, 07:02:08 pm
Quote
visible increase in the wetness of the dough made with the older packet compared with the new

Yesterday, I had exactly the opposite.
My usual 50:50 mix of wholemeal and white, but a new bag of white. Realised it was a lot wetter than usual, so just chucked in extra flour at the last kneading till it felt right. Bread turned out fine, loaves just a bit bigger than usual!
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jaded on 15 January, 2024, 12:47:15 am
I’ve been to Shipton Mill (again…) and have some more floury goodness. Flatus came too, which may surprise.

In the last couple of days i have made a glorious white and a stunning wholemeal.

I think I know why I laid bricks before, and look forward to altering ingredients and timing for the better.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 15 January, 2024, 05:48:27 am
... were still a little on the short side....

One possible cause for lack of expected height (apart from yeast, obv) is dryness. I flatten the top of my loaves with the knuckles of a wet hand, if I don't they fail to achieve the same height.

If your oven is 10% underreading, extending baking time by 10% ish will also work.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 15 January, 2024, 06:55:31 am
I’ve been to Shipton Mill (again…) and have some more floury goodness. Flatus came too, which may surprise.

In the last couple of days i have made a glorious white and a stunning wholemeal.

I think I know why I laid bricks before, and look forward to altering ingredients and timing for the better.

Started using rye to feed the starter again and it's exploded all over the place. It's amazing the difference it makes. I use 1:3 rye to white flour for the sourdough just by using a rye starter, and I prefer the outcome. Gives the loaf a bit more flavour
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 15 January, 2024, 05:14:34 pm
I’ve been to Shipton Mill (again…) and have some more floury goodness. Flatus came too, which may surprise.

In the last couple of days i have made a glorious white and a stunning wholemeal.

I think I know why I laid bricks before
, and look forward to altering ingredients and timing for the better.

What's your theory?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 28 January, 2024, 12:16:10 pm
Anyone used DME (spray dried malt) or malt extract in bread and want to share?
What I'm going for is trying to make nicer bread for making toast (I like my toast golden and slightly soft, not shattering), I'm not really aiming to change the flavour much, though I appreciate that may be unavoidable...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 28 January, 2024, 02:39:43 pm
Anyone used DME (spray dried malt) or malt extract in bread and want to share?
What I'm going for is trying to make nicer bread for making toast (I like my toast golden and slightly soft, not shattering), I'm not really aiming to change the flavour much, though I appreciate that may be unavoidable...

I use malt as standard in my white bread, around a big dollop in a loaf (750g flour) and recommend it to the house for flavour and texture. Try it, you won't look back. In use, I put the dollop (mebbe 30g?) into 100ml of boiling water to dissolve and top up with the rest of liquid cold. I'm less impressed with adding to wholemeal, I've moved onto using molasses for that. I use Meridian (https://shop.meridianfoods.co.uk/products/meridian-natural-barley-malt-extract-370-g), and tend to buy from Dolphin.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Marco Stefano on 29 January, 2024, 10:44:10 pm
Standard loaf for years has been 80% wholemeal 20% white, medium-sized tin loaf using dried yeast & a dash of rapeseed oil; this is now called 'Raw Grandpa Toast', as it's usual journey to the plate is via the toaster, and buttered for young Master Marco. Pizza dough is made every couple of weeks; we roll out and assemble toppings straight on the hot stones as quickly as possible with good results.

Recently I tried to make baguettes using this recipe ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-husjZkxHw ) and was amazed at the lack of any real effort on my part and the resulting chewy and quite suitable crumb. Ludicrously easy.

Recently, someone at the rowing club said 'bring a pot and have some sourdough starter', so I've been using that for a few weeks. Just experimenting with overnight fermentations & combinations of recipes (including the recipes above) and it seems to work well; quite mild in terms of sourness, but tasty. I'm just feeding the starter after use (no discards) with wholemeal & white, which seems to revive okay after a day out in the kitchen (very gloopy - lots of polysaccharides, I suspect), then it lives in the fridge for a few days before use. Good fun trying this stuff out.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: geoff on 30 January, 2024, 03:29:29 pm
Cheapskate that I am, I tried reusing baking paper (slightly brown and crispy=fragile) from a previous bake.

The paper naturally broke and I dropped the dough down the side of my Dutch oven.

Result is an interestingly misshapen loaf!

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240130/a7860d3eb94446c212de5a60684c2f72.jpg)

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 04 February, 2024, 06:44:02 pm
Made a focaccia (a la Felicity Cloake), turns out we could be eating this for days, it's quite big.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53509034400_72b080d999_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pwpMGC)20240204_180346-COLLAGE (https://flic.kr/p/2pwpMGC) by The Pingus (https://www.flickr.com/photos/the_pingus/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 04 February, 2024, 07:05:41 pm
I often do this with left-over balls of pizza dough.
Works really well.

Oddly enough, I was just talking about Felicity to a friend on my club ride today.
She has made me Spanakopita in the past, when I was round at hers chainsawerizing a fallen tree and it was from one of Felicity's 'I'll try *all the recipes* and distil the One True Recipe out of them all' recipes.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 04 February, 2024, 07:57:03 pm
Yes, this was a 'the perfect' recipe
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 04 February, 2024, 08:22:31 pm
Using leftover 'overnight poolish dough' is probably a bit out of spec, but it's the best way to use leftover dough balls.

Confession:
First time I did this, I went out into the garden so snip rosemary for this.  It is close to the lavender, which looked identical. Yes, I made soap-flavoured focaccia. Idiot-boy.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 04 February, 2024, 08:28:38 pm
I was just thinking of that as I was ripping the rosemary up  ;D
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: orraloon on 05 February, 2024, 04:06:00 pm
Quick Q from an easy does it, Panasonic breadmaker user:  not been able for a while to buy wholemeal bread flour in local 'Every Little Helps' supermarkets / Coop store, own brand or the more expensive stuff.  Is there some shortage thing going on?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Feanor on 05 February, 2024, 05:03:55 pm
Quick Q from an easy does it, Panasonic breadmaker user:  not been able for a while to buy wholemeal bread flour in local 'Every Little Helps' supermarkets / Coop store, own brand or the more expensive stuff.  Is there some shortage thing going on?

I've found horriblemarkets to be very hit and miss.
Some of the local farm shops have a better selection.

But I usually just buy online, eg:
https://www.bakerybits.co.uk/flour/flour-by-application/bread
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Flite on 05 February, 2024, 07:51:42 pm
We get ours from a local (40mile round trip is local to us) wholefood store.
But it always used to be available from our rather more local tiny co-op
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: citoyen on 15 February, 2024, 10:15:56 am
Been neglecting my sourdough starter lately. Had a look at it this morning. There was mould on the jar. Damn. Back to square one...
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jaded on 15 February, 2024, 12:44:07 pm
I’ve been to Shipton Mill (again…) and have some more floury goodness. Flatus came too, which may surprise.

In the last couple of days i have made a glorious white and a stunning wholemeal.

I think I know why I laid bricks before
, and look forward to altering ingredients and timing for the better.

What's your theory?

I discovered that it is good practice to soak seeds in water before adding them to the mix. Also, oats soak up a lot of water*.

I've just developed a loaf that is 150gm wholemeal, 350gm white, 50 gm seeds, blob of butter, salt and 350gm water. Rises well, nice colour, and texture interest from the seeds. I think this may become my standard loaf  :thumbsup:

*I'd like to find a way of incorporating oats as I like the flavour. But one step at a time.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 16 February, 2024, 10:20:24 am
Nice, I should have a go with seeds again when I'm feeling brave
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 25 February, 2024, 06:57:29 pm
Saturday is bread making day. First operation is to mix some starter (which is rye flour based) with whatever flour is needed for the levain for the day's loaf. This is normally white wheat flour as I normally make a white loaf. However yesterday, a brain fart on my part meant I made a rye flour levain.  Made the white loaf anyway and just pulled it from the oven. Looks ok, taste report to follow.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Jaded on 25 February, 2024, 09:20:31 pm
Took a loaf to our son. He'd asked for a white loaf, but I couldn't bring myself to do that. I had to swap 50 of the grams of White for Wholemeal. As he is Vegan I used a dribble of oil, not a blob of butter.

He and his partner liked it a lot.

But they didn't get it all. We ate a significant amount.  ;D
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 05 March, 2024, 11:24:05 am
Lately I've been getting inconsistent rise out of my bread, which was slightly odd as the way I bake gives very consistent results. But, I've been experimenting with various flour from other supermarkets. Just baked Asda vs Waitrose, and I was shocked at the difference. (just FTR, the white is Asda, too). The loaf tin is slightly different shape, with identical quantities, but not sufficient to explain the difference - look at the quality of the rise)

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgj7s9TOzDkExLUhCOoZ6iGLbCDV8k9QZyilHi9OK5phcxJyfKqELV1kFcCtI9DI-WI9gAqCPyuQO5p4t_SAWu24QsAyNWu174dLpMS6tIkbsOdnzdsGXOSjeVbr4HxaZG_ZSl8plviRcSWaehbwzyvXol5xEPsfKnVdtaGIHLBuKKnYmfoofHReOdwLNE/s1020/PXL_20240305_110600621.jpg)

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjXXDugIPsuUGsESZThzv04rrNzHFzyWXlfD_yEPmpUZPFRFDQSyZWE56cJ8LVdFW9Em30KcXjz4No-poa3TasDX3vg6OuhreQuGg7EUHSOt8-Tdtkyuv47Q95JlSYenWWpmDYE0NHo8vlVEWbUOg-stfM0NwgX2BLShyzbjnpSlKITyeg5vJJpCKCg8qc/s1020/PXL_20240305_110540598.jpg)
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 March, 2024, 08:19:02 am
Which is better?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 20 March, 2024, 11:15:42 am
The Waitrose in this instance, better flavour and consistency, the Asda didn't caramalise well in the toaster (yes I like it that dark). To be fair, i have been using other brands like Sainsbo's quite happily, and (I think) even Asda's, too. This speaks more to consistency of quality than overall usability.

I've been very happy with Waitrose essential wholemeal, which is the same price as Sainsbo's too. Tesco (slightly cheaper) is OK, too, but I have suspicions about their consistency over time as well.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Tim Hall on 20 March, 2024, 01:02:42 pm
Sunday I made a wholemeal sourdough loaf and put in the fridge for overnight final proofing (proving?) with a view to baking it Monday evening.

Get to work Monday morning to find I'm needed in Newcastle. The Geordie one, not the under Lyme one.  This meant I wsn't going to be back to bake for a couple of days.  Nipped home to grab an overnight bag and bunged to dough in the freezer.  It's out now, thawing.  I'll see how it bakes this evening. 
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Arminius on 26 March, 2024, 08:47:25 am
Right technically pizza but its a kinda bread

I was lucky enough to get a pizza stone for Christmas and the very strict instructions say preheat stone and then put the pizza on. Oh great and wise assembled how's the best way to get fairly sticky pizza dough from the large chopping board I make them on to the stone?

I make mine on a silicone sheet and then put that on the stone (or steel in my case). ICBA with having polenta all over the kitchen floor. (I used a baking sheet as the peel and put the silicone sheet and pizza on using that).

Long-time listener to this thread, first time caller...

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get a 3 year old involved in making pizzas, without it becoming a bit of a guddle?! What I mean is, are there any techniques, flours, etc that will be robust enough to cope well with an enthusiastic toddler/child getting stuck in, won't require too much work, and can still give reasonable results?
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Hot Flatus on 26 March, 2024, 09:26:48 am
Right technically pizza but its a kinda bread

I was lucky enough to get a pizza stone for Christmas and the very strict instructions say preheat stone and then put the pizza on. Oh great and wise assembled how's the best way to get fairly sticky pizza dough from the large chopping board I make them on to the stone?

I make mine on a silicone sheet and then put that on the stone (or steel in my case). ICBA with having polenta all over the kitchen floor. (I used a baking sheet as the peel and put the silicone sheet and pizza on using that).

Long-time listener to this thread, first time caller...

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get a 3 year old involved in making pizzas, without it becoming a bit of a guddle?! What I mean is, are there any techniques, flours, etc that will be robust enough to cope well with an enthusiastic toddler/child getting stuck in, won't require too much work, and can still give reasonable results?

yes.

if you Google dough recipes, follow one, and after first proof shap into balls for second proof.  The when stretching out ball have it in a pile of flour.

Plenty of YouTube vids on how to shape and stretch pizza dough balls.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Ham on 26 March, 2024, 08:55:47 pm
Yes. Make a normal white dough, use a rolling pin to roll out (let it rest to help, don't worry about it to much. Little'uns can do rolling with some help. Shape doesn't really matter. Use a tin of pizza sauce or just tomato paste. Let them hang on to the grater while you grate, cheddar is good, ready grated mozzarella can be used straight from the freezer (as can cheddar obv)

Any strong white flour will work
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: Arminius on 29 March, 2024, 07:45:48 am
Thanks both!  :thumbsup: We've changed plans, and are going to make some German Easter pastries, but we'll definitely be making pizza another time.
Title: Re: The Bread Thread
Post by: fimm on 02 April, 2024, 09:50:00 am
My husband got a bread machine for Christmas. He mostly makes the bread, but sometimes I do.
He recently bought some rye flour, and then discovered that his machine doesn't have a setting for rye bread.
Yesterday it was my turn to make some bread. I followed a recipe that I liked the look of, but instead of using 400g of white flour I used 300g white and 100g of a new packet of wholemeal flour. At least, I thought it was wholemeal. Turns out it was the rye flour.
The bread seems to have turned out OK - a bit less risen than some, but not a disaster...