Author Topic: Furrybootoon?  (Read 2097 times)

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Furrybootoon?
« Reply #25 on: 22 February, 2024, 01:27:43 pm »
Yeah, to be clear, I meant 'Furrybootoon' not 'far aboot' which is defo a Doric phrase.
So if Doric is Northeast Scots, and Aberdeen is definitely NE Scotland, does that mean Aberdonian is a dialect within a dialect?

The origin of the term Doric given in Wikipedia is interesting:
Quote
The term "Doric" was formerly used to refer to all dialects of Lowland Scots, but during the twentieth century it became increasingly associated with Mid Northern Scots.[4]

The name possibly originated as a jocular reference to the Doric dialect of the Ancient Greek language. Greek Dorians lived in Laconia, including Sparta, and other more rural areas, and were alleged by the ancient Greeks to have spoken laconically and in a language thought harsher in tone and more phonetically conservative than the Attic spoken in Athens. Doric Greek was used for some of the verses spoken by the chorus in Greek tragedy.

According to The Oxford Companion to English Literature:

"Since the Dorians were regarded as uncivilised by the Athenians, 'Doric' came to mean 'rustic' in English, and was applied particularly to the language of Northumbria and the Lowlands of Scotland and also to the simplest of the three orders in architecture."[5]
18th-century Scots writers such as Allan Ramsay justified their use of Scots (instead of English) by comparing it to the use of Ancient Greek Doric by Theocritus.[6] English became associated with Attic.[7]

'Scots' isn't a dialect, it is a language.
At least since 1999 (cf Weinreich) !

I understood that Wikipedia page to say that Doric is a dialect of Scots, and Pingu earlier pointed out Aberdeen as having its own dialect within Doric.

Wrong way round.

Scots is a dialect of Doric.
Interesting. What are the other dialects?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Furrybootoon?
« Reply #26 on: 22 February, 2024, 01:29:37 pm »
The in laws are from farming just outside Aiberdeen. I got smacked for suggesting that the rural Aberdeen accent sounds like a turkey being sick. I have since held my piece.

Having said that, they were occasionally happy to recite the phrase, used when you don't know which shoe should be worn on which foot, "fit fit fits fit fit?"

Unfortuantely that only works in text due to Scots orthography dying out in favour of "ach alddie jsut write whit ye think it soonds like in english"

"Quhat fit fits quhat fit?"

It covers the fact that in Scots there is a transition of pronunciation from Wit to Fit via Whit as you head north
Something similar happens in Maori. Not much else similar between the two though!
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Furrybootoon?
« Reply #27 on: 22 February, 2024, 03:19:01 pm »
Yeah, to be clear, I meant 'Furrybootoon' not 'far aboot' which is defo a Doric phrase.
So if Doric is Northeast Scots, and Aberdeen is definitely NE Scotland, does that mean Aberdonian is a dialect within a dialect?

The origin of the term Doric given in Wikipedia is interesting:
Quote
The term "Doric" was formerly used to refer to all dialects of Lowland Scots, but during the twentieth century it became increasingly associated with Mid Northern Scots.[4]

The name possibly originated as a jocular reference to the Doric dialect of the Ancient Greek language. Greek Dorians lived in Laconia, including Sparta, and other more rural areas, and were alleged by the ancient Greeks to have spoken laconically and in a language thought harsher in tone and more phonetically conservative than the Attic spoken in Athens. Doric Greek was used for some of the verses spoken by the chorus in Greek tragedy.

According to The Oxford Companion to English Literature:

"Since the Dorians were regarded as uncivilised by the Athenians, 'Doric' came to mean 'rustic' in English, and was applied particularly to the language of Northumbria and the Lowlands of Scotland and also to the simplest of the three orders in architecture."[5]
18th-century Scots writers such as Allan Ramsay justified their use of Scots (instead of English) by comparing it to the use of Ancient Greek Doric by Theocritus.[6] English became associated with Attic.[7]

'Scots' isn't a dialect, it is a language.
At least since 1999 (cf Weinreich) !

I understood that Wikipedia page to say that Doric is a dialect of Scots, and Pingu earlier pointed out Aberdeen as having its own dialect within Doric.

Wrong way round.

Scots is a dialect of Doric.
Interesting. What are the other dialects?
Opps, it is me that is upsy downsy

I thought Doric was a classification of european languages.

Nope, that is Scots (which extends from northern ireland to all parts of scotland).
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ravenbait

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Re: Furrybootoon?
« Reply #28 on: 22 February, 2024, 04:10:03 pm »
Scots and English are both Germanic languages with a recent common ancestor. Doric is a dialect of Scots, as is Lallan, and Shetlandic, and a bunch of others from your Ulster Scots to really niche dialects like East Neuk.

Gàidhlig is the Celtic language currently spoken in Scotland, although at one point the people who live in what is currently called Scotland spoke a form of Cumbric or Old Welsh. They remained the longest in the area that coincides with Doric, and I've sometimes wondered if there is any relation.

Sam

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Re: Furrybootoon?
« Reply #29 on: 22 February, 2024, 05:24:27 pm »
I don't think anyone speaks any dialect of Scots up here.
Gàidhlig is common, and children use it in school.

There is a generation of people, roughly my age, who can't read or write Gàidhlig, but speak it as their first language. They are the product of the time when Gàidhlig wasn't taught in schools.
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ElyDave

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Re: Furrybootoon?
« Reply #30 on: 22 February, 2024, 07:38:49 pm »
One of my more practical engineering lecturers had spent time in the far North, and recounted a tale of a young student "and that fits that?"

"Yes it does"

not noticing the inflection, "that, fits that?" led to an apparently circular conversation until another student interjected
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Bluebottle

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Re: Furrybootoon?
« Reply #31 on: 22 February, 2024, 08:25:49 pm »
The in laws are from farming just outside Aiberdeen. I got smacked for suggesting that the rural Aberdeen accent sounds like a turkey being sick. I have since held my piece.

Having said that, they were occasionally happy to recite the phrase, used when you don't know which shoe should be worn on which foot, "fit fit fits fit fit?"

Unfortuantely that only works in text due to Scots orthography dying out in favour of "ach alddie jsut write whit ye think it soonds like in english"

"Quhat fit fits quhat fit?"

It covers the fact that in Scots there is a transition of pronunciation from Wit to Fit via Whit as you head north

Which reminds be of the W.N. Herbert poem, Can't Spell, Won't Spell
Dieu, je vous soupçonne d'être un intellectuel de gauche.

FGG #5465

Regulator

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Re: Furrybootoon?
« Reply #32 on: 23 February, 2024, 02:05:45 pm »
I have to say I find the Aberdeen accent makes my boxers hit the floor...

Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

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ravenbait

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Re: Furrybootoon?
« Reply #33 on: 23 February, 2024, 04:39:18 pm »
I have to say I find the Aberdeen accent makes my boxers hit the floor...

I am not sure what sort of response is warranted by this statement. Except, perhaps, "How?"

Sam
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"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

ian

Re: Furrybootoon?
« Reply #34 on: 23 February, 2024, 09:19:29 pm »
Rapid onset anorexia caused by the thought of the local cuisine, I imagine.


Before you start, I have had nice meals in Aberdeen, but I've also lived in Scotland and eaten bridies.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Furrybootoon?
« Reply #35 on: 28 February, 2024, 02:38:39 pm »
Scots and English are both Germanic languages with a recent common ancestor. Doric is a dialect of Scots, as is Lallan, and Shetlandic, and a bunch of others from your Ulster Scots to really niche dialects like East Neuk.

Doric is a collection of Dialects of Scots, I'd refer to any dialect of Scots from the Mearns north as Doric,

https://www.scotslanguage.com/articles/node/id/69
Gives a discussion on the various dialects

I have to say I find the Aberdeen accent makes my boxers hit the floor...

I am not sure what sort of response is warranted by this statement. Except, perhaps, "How?"

Sam

 ;D


I don't think anyone speaks any dialect of Scots up here.
Gàidhlig is common, and children use it in school.

There is a generation of people, roughly my age, who can't read or write Gàidhlig, but speak it as their first language. They are the product of the time when Gàidhlig wasn't taught in schools.

It's all to do with who the Stuarts tried to subdue by forcing Fife and Lothian culture on.

If you've not already, find out about the fife adventurers, the attempt to bring the Western Isles under control by planting Scots speakers (this is how the language got into Ulster too)
It didn't work there, it did work in Moray and Northern Isles

The language boundaries of Scotland start to make sense when you look at who ran the place early on.

Scots (then called Northumbrian English) came north with the angles in Lothian moving into Fife, which was the centre of power, kicking out Gaelic but influencing Spoken Scots. (Kinneucher and Ainster in the East Neuck for example are both Scoticised Gaelic)

Galwegian Gaelic was largely kicked out by the lowland advancement west of Scots.
But the other side of the Mounth remained Gaelic except in the North East where the Scots speaking people of power managed to take root (This is why there is a "Fife Keith", it's the bit the Thane of Fife owned)

except for the bits that had been gained from the Jarl of Orkney, Caithness and Sutherland, which would have been Gaelic and some Norn, so the BBC influence

Planting scots speakers in Orkney and Shetland is how we've ended up with those dialects being basically a clearer, heavily norse influenced form of Fife Scots.


In general Gaelic speaking areas that learnt English directly without going through Scots (Inverness etc.) sound very different from areas that did go through Scots.

There is an overlap though.
Mind I said Gaelic influenced Scots

Press, Breeks etc. (obv I'm writing in Scots there)
Scots and Gaelic for Cupboard and Trowsers


Re: Furrybootoon?
« Reply #36 on: 03 March, 2024, 09:18:14 pm »

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Furrybootoon?
« Reply #37 on: Yesterday at 08:21:12 pm »
The use of Ai to make the A sound in Aiberdeen is a fairly recent thing.
The Scots A says A anyway in many accents and dialects.

There is a hamlet called Arniefoul in Angus, someone has added an I to the signs so people say it right.
See also Alyth and Anster