DC rainmaker first look at Hammerhead Karoo GPS unit

[frankly frankie]

*The 500 makes the beep on or just after the junction which is sub-optimal but still of use. It's an issue with the garmin, the file from c.t has the turn marks exactly the distance you ask for before the junction. No matter what distance before you ask for the garmin ignores it and beeps on or just after the turn. I don't understand how as it has no knowledge of the road layout.

Are you sure it's not simply beeping to indicate a significant change in direction?   It doesn't need any TBT instructions to do that.

[citoyen]

Yes, when I’m using the ‘map’ screen for navigation, the 510 often gives me turn instructions based on significant changes of direction, such as a sharp bend, even if it’s not a junction. It has no knowledge of the actual road layout. (I have turned the beeps off because they’re too irritating.)

It is possible to manually program it with proper turn instructions but it’s more trouble than it’s worth. As noted already, I get on fine following the breadcrumb trail.

[chrisbainbridge]

Yes, when I’m using the ‘map’ screen for navigation, the 510 often gives me turn instructions based on significant changes of direction, such as a sharp bend, even if it’s not a junction. It has no knowledge of the actual road layout

I often find that those acute turns have some sort of track, even if vestigial on the OS map which also causes a turn indicatiob

[chrisbainbridge]

I have finally given up on my hammerhead karoo.

Good points:
The display is amazing, clear, large and visible even in bright sunlight.
The software is now pretty good.  It knows that we drive on the left and turn indications are correct.  Segments are nicely displayed from Strava and much better than garmin.
TBT works nicely and clearly

Bad points:
No beep at all
It completely crashes on me with no warning.  I can do a 60km ride with full TBT and no problems then next day it will crash on my commute when it is just recording.  I have done so many re-installs it is not true.

Now I fully accept that I probably have a bad one and this is not indicative of their overall quality but I cannot trust it again. BUT it is Android and you can side load other programs, etc.

So I am giving it away if anybody wants to play with side loading other mapping software, etc for the fun of it.  pm me

[igauk]

I have finally given up on my hammerhead karoo.

Good points:
The display is amazing, clear, large and visible even in bright sunlight.
The software is now pretty good.  It knows that we drive on the left and turn indications are correct.  Segments are nicely displayed from Strava and much better than garmin.
TBT works nicely and clearly

Bad points:
No beep at all
It completely crashes on me with no warning.  I can do a 60km ride with full TBT and no problems then next day it will crash on my commute when it is just recording.  I have done so many re-installs it is not true.

Now I fully accept that I probably have a bad one and this is not indicative of their overall quality but I cannot trust it again. BUT it is Android and you can side load other programs, etc.

So I am giving it away if anybody wants to play with side loading other mapping software, etc for the fun of it.  pm me

Sent you a PM Chris.

[Hot Flatus]

Just bought a Karoo 2

[Horizon]

Be interested to hear how it goes, having been sitting on the fence for a good while now. I like the continuous software development, I don't like the frankly unforgivable repeat of mountings breaking. Battery life seemingly could be be better, and Garmin seem to have really got a grip on this. Perhaps with Chris Froome now on board, there might be some accelerated development. Wahoo certainly shook the market up, but seem to have lost their way recently, with software issues, and I experienced this first hand with a Bolt 2, a complete dud, which was returned - yet my Bolt 1 has been really good for over 3 years now (save for Wahoo's inability to sort the broken syncing).

[chrisbainbridge]

Interesting that the Karoo2 only just comes behind the 1030Plus in DCrainmakers assessment.

[Hot Flatus]

Only used 3 times and still learning it. First thoughts are that the screen is great, the mount is great but using it can be a bit frustrating. The software has a bit of an amateur feel to it at times. For example the TBT flashes up in a big box at the bottom which obscures half the map, but the font is tiny even though there is loads of room for it. Instructions are shit. You have to pretty much search their blog for keywords. I wanted to see if I could set it to have track up at all times to stop the TBT obscuring the map, but there was nothing in the instructions.

I did a loop ride and turned back early. It didn't notice and just let me go back as if I was still following the route

I had to Google it.

[Hot Flatus]

Used it a few times now. It has been very stable....but it isn't intuitive to use and I struggle to remember how to operate it sometimes. For example stopping a route mid ride.  It isn't obvious, and pushing all of the buttons leaves me none the wiser.

[Horizon]

The brand has just been bought by SRAM - perhaps there will be some significant capital injection into the software development now.

[Hot Flatus]

It's a little bit amateurish. Silly things like huge fonts in places, tiny fonts in others.

[citoyen]

The brand has just been bought by SRAM - perhaps there will be some significant capital injection into the software development now.

Why do I get the feeling this was always the intended outcome for the creators?

[Russell]

Mr Flatus, how are you getting on with the Karoo 2?  Are you any more/less enamoured with it?

Given the demise of Viewranger and the problems we have been having with its replacement, OutdoorActive, we are considering a cycling specific GPS unit and the Karoo 2 looks as though it's one of the better ones.  We would be interested in your latest thoughts.

Not bothered about all the bells and whistles, Strava segments etc, just looking for a basic device that we can load a route onto and be able to follow it.

The fact that they offer a 45 day trial period is tempting.

Thanks

R

[Hot Flatus]

I like it.

Although, I would question why you would want something so complex. It really does have all the bells and whistles.  I think you might be better off with a much more basic Garmin or Wahoo. 

I'm still getting used to it, and I still struggle to sometimes remember how to do some of the functions. The font thing still fucks me off...I can't read some of the stuff that pops up and I can't change the font size.

Battery life is probably about 10 hours, which is a bit lower than competitors but then that gorgeous screen probably accounts for some of it. It will charge off an external pack easily.

I'm still frustrated that I keep finding features I didn't know about that aren't un the online guide. For example, I've just discovered that swiping up with 2 fingers on the map page gives you a 3D view.  I don't think any other GPS can do this.

But, it hasn't ever failed, and it can do a lot of things.

[Russell]

I think you might be better off with a much more basic Garmin or Wahoo. 

Are you suggesting that those devices handle mapping in much the same way?  Sorry bit numpty about these things.

[Hot Flatus]

Sort of. The best navigation mapping I've ever used was Garmin with Turn by turn (TBT) The only issue back when I last used them (8 years ago or so) was that the devices were so complicated that crashes were frequent.

If you can get a Garmin that does TBT, with a screen size that suits you, and without too many extra functions you don't need, then that would be my pick for you. I think they've solved the stability issues and the TBT directions that flash up are really good.  The Wahoo and Karoo TBT are too small for me to be able to see what they are (very frustrating).

[Kim]

If your last experience was in the HCx era, TBT directions on Garmins took a turn for the less clear with the eTrex20/30 and later.  You now get an arrow drawn on the map and a text instruction, rather than a don't-need-your-reading-glasses popup stylised turn direction.

The auto-routing (which you have to use if you want these turn instructions on an eTrex, I think you can do things with Courses on the Edge series) is also notoriously prone to quirks in the mapping, which since Garmin now ship lightly-tweaked (and highly detailed) OSM maps rather than carefully curated City Navigator road maps, usually leads to a Sustrans cyclocross or occasional motorway-in-all-but-name adventure and sometimes crashes the unit.

Unless handled with tranquillity, this sort of thing can lead to stress, ulcers and even death.  The sanest approach is to simply upload a track and follow it as a line on the map, but then it doesn't beep and light up as you approach junctions.

[Hot Flatus]

If your last experience was in the HCx era, TBT directions on Garmins took a turn for the less clear with the eTrex20/30 and later.  You now get an arrow drawn on the map and a text instruction, rather than a don't-need-your-reading-glasses popup stylised turn direction.

705 and 800 were the last units I used. May be more recent than 8 years, I really can't remember!

They used to flash up an exploded view of the junction

[Ashaman42]

I've still got my Vista HCx and I really really hope it lasts to, and through, the upcoming LEL.

Well, ideally beyond as well.

[Hot Flatus]

I look fondly back on the 705. I kept it going for ages, replacing the battery twice. Eventually it was the weather sealing that failed and it would shut down when really wet.

Truth is, if I were to try using one now I'd hate it. The development of these devices seems slowly incremental...but if you put a decade between them they resemble something from the stone age.

[Russell]

The sanest approach is to simply upload a track and follow it as a line on the map, but then it doesn't beep and light up as you approach junctions.

So if one wanted just this approach to navigating what device would one go for?  Ideally one that would support OS mapping as well as OSM.  I have a stoker to follow the map so pop up instructions and TBT are not needed - she does need to be kept occupied after all!!   

[Hot Flatus]

The sanest approach is to simply upload a track and follow it as a line on the map, but then it doesn't beep and light up as you approach junctions.

Don't agree.  TBT is great. Tracks are annoying because you have to keep looking at the device to nake sure you are on route.  If you want a peaceful time then many units allow you to set the screen to switch off and only flick on when a TBT instruction is coming. This is particularly useful at night, and doubly so if tired.

[Russell]

What you say is no doubt true for you and the kind of riding that you do, and indeed the kind of riding that these units are intended for, but as I said I have a stoker whose job it is to map read and enjoys a map.  We don't do night riding nor ride when that tired either.

[Kim]

The sanest approach is to simply upload a track and follow it as a line on the map, but then it doesn't beep and light up as you approach junctions.

Don't agree.  TBT is great. Tracks are annoying because you have to keep looking at the device to nake sure you are on route.  If you want a peaceful time then many units allow you to set the screen to switch off and only flick on when a TBT instruction is coming. This is particularly useful at night, and doubly so if tired.

Oh, I agree, but I'm someone who knows at least two programming languages, and has the GPS mounted on the derailleur post of my recumbent. 

When people ask newbie GPS questions, they tend to be coming from a maps/routesheet background and want something that Just Works, and learning the 1990s UI of a typical Garmin is a bit of a stretch.  Understanding the hoops you have to jump through in order to make auto-routing go where you want it to isn't the sort of thing I'm keen to recommend, though it's my preferred method, as I appreciate the convenience of being beeped at with clear instructions when I'm daydreaming on my bike.