Author Topic: Why isn't this attempted murder?  (Read 6742 times)

Why isn't this attempted murder?
« on: 23 February, 2023, 08:56:18 pm »
I'm sure there's legal stuff that prevents it, but for God's sake!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-64747630

Modification: I may be over-reacting but given the verbals beforehand and the pictures it really does look as if she was trying to snap the other player in half - as she threatened.

Wowbagger

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Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #1 on: 23 February, 2023, 09:44:19 pm »
I'm not legally qualified to recommend a charge, but I think a long custodial sentence is appropriate. A deliberate and premeditated assault left another person in a wheelchair for the rest of her life.
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Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #2 on: 23 February, 2023, 09:57:18 pm »
You would think so, wouldn't you, Wow?  But I haven't been able to find any indication that any censure at al,l from either rugby or legal processes, has occurred.  Apparently the culprit was still saying in this hearing that it was a perfectly normal part of rugby.  No contrition at all, though obviously I won'y have seen every reference.

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #3 on: 23 February, 2023, 10:31:15 pm »
I wonder if the sporting bodies were "waiting for the court case" but that took the poor disabled woman to take that as a claim. APPALLING.

Maybe people should write to the appropriate rugger body, citing the article and asking what they are going to do about it!

FifeingEejit

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Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #4 on: 23 February, 2023, 11:23:28 pm »
Slightly different criminal system here...

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/duncan-ferguson-prison-assault-judge-29170547

For those not wanting to follow a link to the star, the fiscal decided to prosecute Duncan Ferguson for assaulting john mcstay during a match, but here both police officers and the fiscal don't need a complainant, and the victim can't ask prosecutors to drop charges either.

So being England would the victim or witnesses have to raise it with the police?


Edit: I also note the lack of mention that he was in a bit of an altercation with a fisherman in Ainster that also resulted in prosecution but that's now well off topic

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barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #5 on: 23 February, 2023, 11:31:23 pm »
I believe in England both the CPS and an individual can take a claim.

But often police/CPS don't bother (I don't know if in this case how the case was pursued from that article).

Annoyingly, an individual can make a private prosecution and the CPS can "take it over" and then just drop it "lack of resource" "not 60% chance of being winnable". A friend had this issue with a rare criminal element of the Equality Act which he tried to pursue as a Litigant in Person. He had to argue the toss for ages with the CPS to say "DO NOT take this case" and they could have done it anyway. Judge was a twat and rejected the case on some technicality (we had RNIB's disability lawyer observing out of genuine interest!).

Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #6 on: 24 February, 2023, 12:27:36 am »
@ FifeingEejit

Yes, I remember how unusual that Ferguson case seemed to me at the time.  Violence on the pitch taken seriously and not by the football authorities.  Whatever next?!  Any road up - Ferguson's got yet another fight on his hands at Forest Green.

To be serious again, though.  It's astonishing to me (not really) that this incident (nearly 6 years ago) of a thug breaking a player's back, having expressed the intention of seriously hurting them beforehand, hasn't made ANY kind of news, never mind national, till now.

Jaded

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Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #7 on: 24 February, 2023, 01:08:09 am »
Ferguson will hopefully get us promoted from League Two.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #8 on: 24 February, 2023, 01:27:30 am »
 ;D

Clare

  • Is in NZ
Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #9 on: 24 February, 2023, 05:41:36 am »
The CPS wouldn't consider attempted murder as there is no evidence of intent to kill. GBH with intent would be more likely.


Jaded

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Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #10 on: 24 February, 2023, 08:41:57 am »
I await the sentencing. Having read the reports of evidence, it was pleasing that she was found guilty, as it sounded horrendous, as did her actions afterwards.
It is simpler than it looks.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #11 on: 24 February, 2023, 08:51:36 am »
So there is a criminal case as well? No mention of one in the BBC report.
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Jaded

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Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #12 on: 24 February, 2023, 08:52:58 am »
I though I had read that in the paper, will go check!
It is simpler than it looks.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #13 on: 24 February, 2023, 08:53:51 am »
It might have been in the paper without being in the BBC!
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Jaded

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Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #14 on: 24 February, 2023, 09:11:18 am »
I’ve reread and think I misunderstood the article. No criminal case, unless CPS and or Police make it so, and there doesn’t appear to be any desire to do that.

Plus King will not have to pay anything, it will be the RFU insurers that pay.
It is simpler than it looks.

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #15 on: 24 February, 2023, 09:24:22 am »
It's also possible to bring a private prosecution for GBH.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-prosecutions/private-prosecutions

It'd be fair do's if Czernuszka funded her action with King's money.
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #16 on: 24 February, 2023, 09:54:44 am »
It does seem to be a clear-cut case of GBH. Or is it ABH? But of course there will be legal details we don't know, etc etc.
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Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #17 on: 24 February, 2023, 12:02:18 pm »
I’ve reread and think I misunderstood the article. No criminal case, unless CPS and or Police make it so, and there doesn’t appear to be any desire to do that.

Plus King will not have to pay anything, it will be the RFU insurers that pay.

Yes, this was really the reason for my first post.  I couldn't even find ANY censure at all for the attack, not even a citing from the Rugby authorities. 

Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #18 on: 24 February, 2023, 01:07:39 pm »
Not commenting on this particular case, but...
If the rugby authorities followed up every dangerous tackle with a criminal case, there would be no amateur players left. Likewise trash talking (though more in football and american football, I never played rugby at a serious enough level). I remember tackles flying and hearing a defender say to our tricky winger "do that again and I'll break your f'ing leg". At an U12 game. There's some strange unwritten rule in sports that you spend the game doing things that would definitely be assault on the street, and then have a beer afterwards.

In this case, I'd expect more from the ref and from the offending player's team-mates to stop it happening. If you can see someone has the red mist and is going to do something dumb, you should do something about it. Especially in a beginners game where the chances of injury are far higher because players may not be as skilled/robust/savvy about how to protect themselves nor their team-mates.

Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #19 on: 24 February, 2023, 02:44:17 pm »
I watch a lot of rugby (both codes) and I've seen some disgusting things over the years, stuff that if done in the streets would land you a GBH charge (with sufficient evidence).

The worst one was this trigger warning, violence and the offender only received a 6 month ban, despite very clear evidence.

The case in question had a far worse outcome and it doesn't look like the offender will see criminal charges either.

Does someone need to die for the police/CPS step in and start criminalising deliberate acts of violence in contact sports?

Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #20 on: 24 February, 2023, 07:22:55 pm »
@ DuncanM

It isn't up to the sports authorities to bring criminal charges.  I know you know that.  But I'm hugely attracted by what the civil authorities did to Ferguson and I don't recall there being much of a fuss about it.  Basically, someone looked at it and said something along the lines of, "That's a crime and there's clear evidence."  There's nothing special about sporting arenas, in my mind.  I agree with so much of what you say but the fact that "there would be no players left" if cases were followed up, whilst it might possibly (not probably) be true, is actually an indictment of sport.  I think if steps were taken to make games safer, especially punishing miscreants, participation would actually go up. 

There seems to have been appalling cowardice from the authorities in this case.  The claimant had her spine snapped and the culprit intended to "break her".  No fault?  Pathetic .  Sport to the death - it's bollocks, isn't it - even in women's sport.

Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #21 on: 25 February, 2023, 09:52:18 am »
Violence in sport is normalised within society, just like violence on the road. That's the environment within which the police/CPS/courts operate, and that's why the Ferguson case was so unusual.
Fundamentally, when you put people into this scenario where there's an acceptable level of violence built into the rules of the game, and then there's a line, and that line can be crossed and endanger people with or without intent, it's really complicated. I don't know if there's a name for what the offender does in this case, but there's a whole list of named actions that are banned and dangerous, and we know about because they happen - from spear tackles, clotheslines, helmet to helmet hits, 2 footers, the list goes on. And all of those offenses can be the result of a player trying to do something legal and doing it poorly. The language used to describe intent is often violent or martial as well, but it doesn't necessarily signify a real threat. "He's a violent runner" is one of the highest compliments you can pay a running back in American Football - "punishing" the tackler, but there's no malice there.

Generally the rules are about protecting "defenceless" players, and they have evolved over time as people get hurt, and the law sits back and lets sport get on with it. I don't think that's right, but it becomes very hard to judge, except in real standout cases, and unusual cases make bad law. And then you have to think about combat sports, and that's a whole 'nother level of complexity.

Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #22 on: 25 February, 2023, 12:36:32 pm »
I understand all that, Duncan.  But I can't find any indication that the perpetrator has even apologised for the consequences of her action are that the rugby authorities have even investigated.  Have you seen anything?

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #23 on: 25 February, 2023, 01:48:07 pm »
I have found the legal judgment of the civil hearing.

It makes grim reading, I'm on page 4 and there's already a litany of ways the Defendant is behaving aggressively and assaulting various members of the Claimant's team.

ETA and content note:There's photos from page 8-10 of the injuring tackle.

ETA 2 Lots of Rugby detail about why the tackle was dangerous and it looks like the Defendant's expert got completely trashed in cross examination. I think it's clear the barristers as well as the judge are rugby players or knowledgeable about rugby so lots of rugby detail as well as citing of guidelines.

In a previous *friendly* game the Defendant broke someone's wrist and gave someone else a head/ear injury (whacked her full in the forehead without warning).

Interestingly one of the experts while not being allowed to comment on how the game was refereed, said "I would not referee this game, like that".

Re: Why isn't this attempted murder?
« Reply #24 on: 26 February, 2023, 11:48:23 am »
Thanks, for that, N.  It's chilling.