Calling Maths teachers

[Woofage]

Miss W has been identified as being gifted at TEH SUMZ. I would obviously like her to progress in the subject as much as possible. Therefore, could any maths teachers point me towards suitable resources on t'interweb to help me to help her? She's in year 5 and I'm pretty good at TEH SUMZ myself. BTW, I've spoken to her teacher who is going to get some stuff for me but I want to make sure I haven't missed anything.

[CrinklyLion]

Not a maths teacher, and indeed not actually a teacher at all these days, but I'd recommend nrich.maths.org :: Mathematics Enrichment :: June 2010 Front Page

Lots of good stuff, and there's plenty there that you can use to add breadth to her mathematical understanding and enjoyment to complement the school-based curriculum rather than plowing on ahead upwards (which can be a very effective way of making school DULL).

[gordon taylor]

nrich is good.

For an able child, I'd steer her a million miles away from numeracy worksheets. That stuff is arithmetic, not maths. The purpose of the gifted and talented initiative (or whatever it's called now) is to engage and challenge the child - to make them think, in other words. Children who are drilled to be good at sums are sometimes hopeless at maths* - they fail to see the patterns or logic and have a poor grasp of how numbers work in the real world.

Good G&T activites will have a range of solutions and offer smart answers to random thinkers.

For example:

Give her an old cassette tape and ask her to work out how long the tape is.
She's allowed to take a metre out, but no more
Or a toilet roll, same rules. Or the groove on an LP.

Ask her how many blades of grass are on the front lawn or the number of grains of rice in a packet. Many children are at a loss to know where to start on a problem that isn't laid out as a series of instructions. Young girls often seem to need a "correct" answer to a maths problem - if she can accept estimates and explain reasonable accuracy then that is a massive leap forward from primary level numeracy

Look for number patterns everywhere - sunflowers, daisy petals. If she can express a pattern as (eg)  3n + 5 instead of "start on eight and go up in threes" she'll be streets ahead of the game.

Work on units too - she needs to know her weight and height in kg and cm. Be clear about the different units for length, area, mass and capacity. Prices and best buys in supermarkets give boundless questions - what's the cheapest way to fill a trolley at Tesco... that kind of thing.

I think it is much more about discussing and challenging her thinking rather than doing more classroom maths.

* Please don't think I dismiss the need to be good at tables and sums... but if your daughter has been identified as gifted, then just take those skills as a given. Don't bore her to tears by doing more workbooks.

Hope that helps?

[plum]

Most of the good online stuff is subscription only straight to schools. mymaths and mathletics are two.

One free site that does come to mind is coolmath.com, something for everyone there, lots of games and random stuff mixed in with real lessons. Starts at about the right level for your littlie.

[Woofage]

Thanks all .

@Gordy: brilliant! I will try some of those problems. I'll see how our 7yo gets on with them too.

[rr]

The Primary maths challenge papers are fun and challenging

[Julian]

There used to be some sort of Maths Olympiad thing when I was at school that all the top set were forced to do.

I was dreadful at it, being one of the children Gordy identifies as good at sums but not correspondingly good at maths.  The girls who were genuinely good at maths all really enjoyed it and got a special certificate anna badge for their efforts.  If it's still running then Miss W might like that.

[rr]

There used to be some sort of Maths Olympiad thing when I was at school that all the top set were forced to do.

I was dreadful at it, being one of the children Gordy identifies as good at sums but not correspondingly good at maths.  The girls who were genuinely good at maths all really enjoyed it and got a special certificate anna badge for their efforts.  If it's still running then Miss W might like that.

I think this is what I linked to

[HTFB]

The Maths Olympiads run for secondary students---see David Martin's thread. The Mathematical Association which RR links to are the right people to go to, though: they are genuinely interested in teaching real maths for its own sake and stretching pupils with it. Their magazine Mathematical Pie is surely worth subscribing to, and aimed at top primary--lower secondary ages. NRICH is I think part of the same overarching scheme.

Outside the school-resources world you might look for, for example, Martin Gardner's books which include fun puzzles and observations that might be at her level.

[Woofage]

Following Gordy's suggestions, I presented Miss W with a jar containing rice and told her to work out how many grains it contained. "Oh, I know how to do this." she said. I was thinking that the cassette tape one was a bit difficult but she's getting that one next!

I downloaded the Primary Maths Challenge paper (thanks, rr) last night. She did the cake Q at breakfast which admittedly has taken me several minutes.

This is going to be fun for all of us. I desperately need to brush up on some of my maths so it will help me too.

[David Martin]

I downloaded the Primary Maths Challenge paper (thanks, rr) last night. She did the cake Q at breakfast which admittedly has taken me several minutes.

The whole paper or just that q? I had a quick scan through. Some I worked out by elimination. The S/T/U one was quite tricky - I think I have the right answer but only by determining the others could not be true.

The grains of rice is fun. The 'how much water is falling on the town when it rains? If all that rain goes into the river, how much will it rise?' is a bit more stretching than the grains of rice but no harder mathematically.

The guys I work with would then say 'and now calculate the error ranges in your estimates'.

..d

[fruitcake]

My dad always involved me in DIY jobs and, his being an engineer, the planning and calculations were a natural part of any job.   So he would show me his calculations when measuring up for shelves, fitting worktops, calculating paint coverage, estimating volumes of compost required for gardening jobs, and costing a project prior to going to the shop.  It must have taken a chunk out of his time to explain this stuff to his son but he recognised that it let me see that maths has real life applications.  I still like looking at his rough notes of calculations when he leaves them around the house - although for larger jobs these calculations now reside in excel spreadsheets.  I guess in educational terms, he was 'modelling' a behaviour that he hoped I would emulate and it was as much about demonstrating the methodology as the calculations - though of course if either one was wrong the project would be set back.  Most impressively he shared his mistakes too.  

[Woofage]

I downloaded the Primary Maths Challenge paper (thanks, rr) last night. She did the cake Q at breakfast which admittedly has taken me several minutes.

The whole paper or just that q?

Just that Q. I have to say that some of the questions had me really having to think as I don't use maths much myself these days. But then I remembered that we were taught logs in yr 6 or 7 so even in yr 5 they're doing some "proper" maths.

Don't get me on error ranges. I used to get totally demoralised in labs when all the errors were taken into account .

[arabella]

The Maths Olympiads run for secondary students---see David Martin's thread. The Mathematical Association which RR links to are the right people to go to, though: they are genuinely interested in teaching real maths for its own sake and stretching pupils with it. Their magazine Mathematical Pie is surely worth subscribing to, and aimed at top primary--lower secondary ages. NRICH is I think part of the same overarching scheme.

As a 12 yo/year 8 I didn't get very far with Mathematical Pie.  thankfully now I am a grownup and big guy gets it I can actually do the qu's.
<edit snipped for removal to other thread>

[daveb]

When I was at the end of primary school I did some Maths Masterclasses that I think were arranged by the Mathematical Association. I expect I still have the certificate somewhere..

It was something like a couple of hours of mathsy fun once a week for a month but with some real mathematical content.

Maths is great.

[Woofage]

Thought I'd drag this thread up.

Miss W got her Y6 maths SATs result this week: 98% and highest in her year. The KS2 expected level is 4. She's well into 6 (although can only be scored up to 5 ).

We're thinking now of ways to keep her challenged in the future. Is it realistic for her to be taking GCSE maths in, say, 3 years and A level at 16?

[mrcharly-YHT]

I have to ask; why would you want to push her this much?

Sure, some people can take exams early. But what then? University at 17? Have a think about what that would be like.

It's my experience (currently have two daughters doing gcse, both scoring A or A* in all subjects), that the GCSE workload is heavy enough without trying to cram it earlier.

Look ahead to schools - find which ones have advanced level classes. The students don't take exams earlier, they just study more material. This helps with later admission to university.

[Kim]

Sure, some people can take exams early. But what then? University at 17? Have a think about what that would be like.

A school friend of mine did that.  It was, I think, the right decision.  Even if he did spend the next several of years doing little other than smoking weed, playing Quake and accumulating maths degrees.

Surprisingly, he turned out to be one of the sane ones.


On the other hand, I took my maths GCSE early, got a good grade and was subsequently labelled as "good at maths" and put into a high-achieving accelerated set.  I then proceeded to lose the plot halfway through my A-level, and nobody really noticed until too late.  I scraped my way into my first-choice university place by coming across very well at interview, and then proceeded to drop out in a catastrophic manner due to mental health problems and the unanticipated high $SCARY_MATHS content of engineering degrees^[1].


Some people are genuinely gifted.  Others just reach their natural ability level a bit earlier than others.  How do you tell the difference?



_{[1] I was lead to believe that Electronics and Chemistry A-levels would be good preparation for an E&EE degree.  While they were both useful, Further Maths (and possibly Computing) would have been more relevant.}

[interzen]

Look ahead to schools - find which ones have advanced level classes. The students don't take exams earlier, they just study more material. This helps with later admission to university.

This.
Having had the misfortune of having to teach physics students at a 'Top 5' university, any additional material outside of the 'regular' syllabus would be a definite plus, if only to ease the burden of the poor schlubs who have to do the teaching¹

Bonus points abound if the additional material can be made 'interesting' in some way, since it's more likely to stick *and* it'll also encourage them to learn more, which is a Good Thing.

¹ - I found it particularly soul-destroying to have to teach the rudiments of calculus, because at the time it was barely touched-upon at A-level. When I did my A-levels, it was practically the first thing we did, and kind of essential if you plan to do a science degree.

[HTFB]

It's certainly not impossible to be ready for A-level at 16; the best mathematician of my cohort was 2 years up in all subjects---I think he wasn't yet 17 when he started at Cambridge, either. He's turned out OK.

I was rather resentful of not being allowed to take GCSE maths early, but I'm not sure it did me any lasting harm not to. I think it just left me more time to put into the subjects I found less easy. Taking the A-levels early, you'd have the risk of underperforming (there are A*s to get, these days) and also of going cold on your best subject before you get to pick it up again at university.

They kept me busy with interschool maths competitions, the NMC/BMO programme, and a flexible approach to the open-ended follow-on part of the GCSE project work. At A-level there were STEP papers. But it wasn't hothoused at all.  

[Woofage]

I have to ask; why would you want to push her this much?

Sure, some people can take exams early. But what then? University at 17? Have a think about what that would be like.

It's my experience (currently have two daughters doing gcse, both scoring A or A* in all subjects), that the GCSE workload is heavy enough without trying to cram it earlier.

Look ahead to schools - find which ones have advanced level classes. The students don't take exams earlier, they just study more material. This helps with later admission to university.

I don't want to over- push her, but nor do I want to see her bored with her talents wasted.

If she takes an A-level early it gives her a chance to study another subject. Surely this will help her gain a place at a top university? We don't have the means to educate her privately, so she has to get in on merit alone .

The alternative is as you suggest: to study advanced material and I see that further maths thankfully still exists.

Anyway, there's nothing we can do until we get a chance to talk to her teachers. The other problem is that she won't start high school until Y9 so we have to plan around that.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I think it just left me more time to put into the subjects I found less easy.

This is a very very important point. If you are considering the oxbridge unis, your daughter will have to get a decent result in a language - maths/science/english isn't enough.

Talk to the teachers about further maths study rather than pushing some things very early.  If she takes an A level early she almost certainly will miss out on being in the advanced classes.

[Kim]

If she takes an A-level early it gives her a chance to study another subject. Surely this will help her gain a place at a top university?

It's changed a lot since I did A-levels, but I did four on the incorrect advice that it would help.  More A-levels may be better in terms of getting an education, but in terms of university admission it was just more opportunity to get bad grades.

To an admissions tutor, AAA (or the modern equivalent) looks a lot better than AABC, or even AAAD.

[Tim]

This is the guy used to pick up on distinctly good mathematicians in the UK:
Tony Gardiner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or at least was 15 years ago.

This is the organisation:
United Kingdom Mathematics Trust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They've probably got good advice about how to get ahead in mathematics for those who can.

Once upon a time I did get invited (and went) to a course in Oxford as a result of the maths olympiad. It was all downhill thereafter...

[Karla]

I scraped my way into my first-choice university place by coming across very well at interview, and then proceeded to drop out in a catastrophic manner due to mental health problems and the unanticipated high $SCARY_MATHS content of engineering degrees.

I don't know how much it had changed in the intervening time but I believe I sat your second year maths course in 2006, when I wangled my way in during my mid-degree year out.  

When I did my first year of EE, I similarly found the maths content to be a bit overwhelming.  I'd say I found maths easy up to GCSE, from which A level was quite a step up, and then uni was another big step up.  I'd really have appreciated it if the GCSE had covered some more ground (my school did make a half-hearted stab at an additional maths GCSE, but the less said about that the better).  At uni, I regretted not doing the further maths A level, as that would have given me some breathing space in my first year.  

I had to resit that exam    Mrcharly's advice is good: find a school that will let Miss W do this, so she had a better grounding when she starts uni and can take the new material in her stride.  For now, she can maybe devote slightly less effort to maths, get by on natural ability and diversify into some other things that interest her, adding more strings to her bow?