Author Topic: History of high-pressure clincher tyres  (Read 11235 times)

Samuel D

History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« on: 27 July, 2018, 02:59:02 pm »
The transition from tubulars to high-pressure clinchers on road bikes occurred before my time. Consequently, most of what I know about this event was derived from Usenet posts by Jobst Brandt. The man was a genius, but I don’t trust him not to portray a stylised version of history on this topic. At any rate, his posts add up to an incomplete picture, and a second opinion wouldn’t hurt.

So, have you come across a book that describes this transition? I am especially interested in who the main players were, the forces driving the change, and the consequences. I doubt there was a book devoted to this topic, but perhaps you’ve read a general book with a good chapter on tyres.

Thanks!

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #1 on: 27 July, 2018, 03:26:53 pm »
Michelin Elan was about the first decent quality HP tyre that could substitute for a tubular. I'll have a think about a suitable book. The transition occurred in the late '70s through very early '80s.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #2 on: 27 July, 2018, 03:27:25 pm »
The hook bead rim was the big change although, even today, superficially similar tyres can have radically different blow-off pressures, so the tyre also plays a part.

I don't know of a book, I'm afraid - it's a bit of a specialist topic.

Tubeless is the new generation for theoretically lower rolling resistance and better air retention, although a puncture on the road is still problematic; you need to deal with liquid gunge and you need a fast rush of air/gas to seat the bead fast, before all of it leaks out.  One day it may be on most bikes and wired-on will seem quaint.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #3 on: 27 July, 2018, 03:57:31 pm »
new tyres demand new rims and in the long-distant past Dunlop

a) made both and
b) held patents concerning wire beads and rims to accept them.

Technically 'clincher' tyres were originally those without wire beads in the edges but that had a moulded lip in the tyre edge that engaged with a very large hook in the rim edge (which was weak as a consequence of the hook). The only reason they existed at all was because other manufacturers had to pay Dunlop a license fee to use their wire-bead designs. These clinchers were only  held in position by the lateral component of the tyre pressure force and the result was not 100% reliable; crucially the tyres tend to come off at even slightly lower pressures, so a slow puncture could be a real hazard. With some setups you are forced to use a really high pressure to keep the tyre on the rim (think 70psi in a motorbike tyre, that kind of thing). Some cars and motorbikes used these tyres up to about WWII and vintage enthusiasts still run them. They are bloody dangerous and this has lead to the death of a vintage motorcycle rider in recent years.


So most folk used Dunlop pattern 'wire on' tyres/rims for everything but racing. Aluminium rims didn't become widely available until after WWII and these (like steel rims) didn't have hooked beads at all.

In the 1960s Moulton used HP tyres on hookless rims and these ran at ~90psi. Similar tyres were available in other sizes , down to a width of ~7/8". They were still heavier than tubs, nowhere near as fast, and were not secure on every type of rim.

When I started cycling (mid to late '70s) it was assumed that if you went racing you would use sprints and tubs, and plenty of folk used these all the time (which was a bloody nightmare, frankly).  Most club riders rode otherwise on 27 x 1-1/4" tyres that fitted to rims such as the 'birmalux' one that didn't have hooked beads, but hooked bead rims were just coming in, eg the (later from ~1979 wolber) super champion Mod 58 rims. [BTW Mod 58 is strictly speaking a 27" size; the same rim section in 700C had a different model designation, and blue rathe than red labels .]

Tyres started to appear with two pressure ratings; with and without hook beaded rims, so about 70psi or 90psi respectively.

Modern HP rims and tyres arguably started with an alliance between mavic and Michelin, producing the Module E, Module E2 rims and the 'Elan' tyre respectively.  These appeared in about 1976 and looked like sprints and tubs (if you squinted) and were only a bit heavier. They were slower and the wheels were weaker too but they were obviously much easier to live with.

The elan tyres were available in 21mm and 23mm widths, to fit either 700C (622) or 27" (630) rims. I had a Blue Dawes mirage which was fitted with E2 rims and elan tyres in 27" size.

The elan tyres were (like the Hi-lites that followed them) comfortable but fairly horrid; they were made from some kind of weird mesh fabric that could split if (say) you ran over a small stone. They also swelled up if you left the tyres inflated hard.


At about the same time the Japanese started to produce similar rims and tyres, and so did the Italians. Wolber produced a rim they called the 'super gentleman' rim (that in essence later became the Mavic MA2 when wolber sold their rim making business). Weinmann also made various hook-beaded rims.  Late to the game Specialized had a japanese tyre manufacturer (IRC or Panasonic I think) make tyres to their designs and these were (for a while) quite a bit faster than any other HP tyre, if suffering from appalling wet grip and a stupid centre ridge that made the steering on many bikes feel horrible. Basically if you wanted to ride a TT and not use tubs in about 1983 to 1987 you used mavic rims (or arayas if you were feeling spendy), specialized (or Nutrak) tyres and earnestly hoped it didn't rain.

 Serious racers used sprints and tubs, but might use HPs for training on. A popular tyre for training on was the Michelin bibsport; this had a much stronger carcass than 'elan' (or 'hi-lite' tyres), a rib and file tread and was 25mm in width.
In fact it was so strong that you could (and I did) tour with a load on using these tyres. Unlike the Japanese tyres there was more grip and the tyres behaved more predictably. Frankly I'd rather have eaten worms than ride in the winter on specialized tyres, they were ****ing terrible.

I would happily buy bibsport 25s today, even though they don't have any puncture protection; they work with tyre savers, come on and off Mod58 type rims without tyre levers (so punctures are but a slight annoyance) and handle very predictably.

Apologies in advance for errors and omissions, but that is my understanding /how I saw it at the time.


hth

cheers

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #4 on: 27 July, 2018, 05:35:08 pm »
Fascinating stuff, thanks Brucey! Your wealth of cycling knowledge never ceases to amaze! :-)
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #5 on: 27 July, 2018, 05:55:22 pm »
Brucey talks about "wire bead" tyres in the pre-WWII period, but I've got a few Cycling magazines from the late 20s/early 30s and they distinguish between "wire" and "bead" tyres, with corresponding rims. The difference being as the names say; either a wire round the edge to give it shape and tension, or a series of beads which fitted into a specially shaped rim. So two different things. That's all obviously way before what Samuel is asking about though.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #6 on: 27 July, 2018, 06:18:23 pm »
that is pretty much what I said, but the 'beaded edge' tyres were known as 'clinchers'.



more here

http://www.oldbike.eu/museum/tyres/pneumatic-tyres/the-pneumatic-tyre/

The confusion arises because both tyres and rims (of many sorts) can now be said to have lips or beads, and the term 'clincher' is now not used in the way it once was.

I described the most commonly used tyres as 'wire bead' (modern terminology) Dunlop type (to avoid confusion with other types of tyre).  It is basically impossible to write anything about this topic without there being some possibility of ambiguity or confusion.


cheers

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #7 on: 27 July, 2018, 06:24:49 pm »
Ah, modern terminology, old technology; confusion!
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #8 on: 27 July, 2018, 08:54:53 pm »
The first narrow hp tyre that I can remember being advertised was a 27" one by Vredestein with dimensions of 27"x11/4"x1". The advertising had it pictured alongside a 1p coin - the width was about the same. Must have been about 1976.

Weren't the Michelins used by Van Impe in his TdF victory (and credited with giving him the descending edge that allowed him to win -which we now know to be crap because his advantage came from the lead-ballasted bottles that Cyril Guimard handed up for the downhill bits. Cyril Guimard did not deny this when the question was posed a few years ago!)

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #9 on: 27 July, 2018, 09:15:01 pm »
I suspect American usage has re-introduced 'clincher'.  I recall 'wire-on' being the usual UK term, and 'sew-up' often used for tubs.

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #10 on: 28 July, 2018, 06:06:24 am »
I suspect American usage has re-introduced 'clincher'.  I recall 'wire-on' being the usual UK term, and 'sew-up' often used for tubs.

Sorry if I am misunderstanding your post but I thought "sew-up" was the American term. I only ever remember tubs and sprints being the terms used for tubulars - and "pressures" being used for tyres (or the abbreviation H.P.)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #11 on: 28 July, 2018, 07:51:38 am »
In Oz, tubulars were known as 'singles'. Regional terminology is always fun.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #12 on: 28 July, 2018, 07:56:10 am »
 "tubs" and "pressures" were the terms in England.  I started club riding and racing in 1968.  I recall the first person I knew to be riding Michelin Elan tyres which he had fitted to normal 27" Weinemann Alesa rims.  They were so small and low profile (being spread on the wide rim) compared with our usual Michelin High Speed 27 x 1 1/4 tyres that we reckoned he could not lean far in corners before the rim hit the road.

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #13 on: 28 July, 2018, 08:49:10 am »
Weren't the Michelins used by Van Impe in his TdF victory (and credited with giving him the descending edge that allowed him to win -which we now know to be crap because his advantage came from the lead-ballasted bottles that Cyril Guimard handed up for the downhill bits. Cyril Guimard did not deny this when the question was posed a few years ago!)
I think you are right; all part of the sales pitch for the tyres. Not sure how many stages were run with those tyres though. The lead weighted bidons were an old trick; Jean Robic is thought to have used them a generation earlier. I suppose they didn't chuck those bidons in the hedge when they had finished with them.... :o

cheers

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #14 on: 28 July, 2018, 10:24:36 am »
I suspect American usage has re-introduced 'clincher'.  I recall 'wire-on' being the usual UK term, and 'sew-up' often used for tubs.

Sorry if I am misunderstanding your post but I thought "sew-up" was the American term. I only ever remember tubs and sprints being the terms used for tubulars - and "pressures" being used for tyres (or the abbreviation H.P.)

Might have been.  As Tatanab says mentions above, 'tubs' was probably more common.  I remember 'pressures' as well.  I think some of these terms were regional.

Samuel D

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #15 on: 28 July, 2018, 11:38:35 am »
Thanks for the detailed posts that give me a good picture for further research. Brucey practically wrote a book for me!

Still interested in any books you have on your shelves that include a good section on tyres – even if they don’t specifically concentrate on this transition.

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #16 on: 28 July, 2018, 12:37:14 pm »
allegedly from the 1930s



I'd have guessed a bit later than that, but does anyone know?

The 'road racing' tyre looks a lot like a bibsport…..

This ad

has to be pre-WWII; check out the Warwick tyre tread, basically it is a mess of swastikas!  Dunno if that was accidental (which I would find hard to believe) or had political connotations.  The 'Warwick' tyre, an ideal gift for the facist in your life.... :o

[edit: 'Fort Dunlop' was built in ~1920; at some point shortly after this the address for Dunlop became 'Fort Dunlop, Birmingham'. This suggests that the ad above is pre- 1920.]

cheers

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #17 on: 28 July, 2018, 01:00:01 pm »
My Dad was a club cyclist in the thirties. He raced on tubs, otherwise he rode on "high pressures"*. He considered clinchers to be obsolete by the time he was an active rider. So much so, that all he could remember about them was that they would only fit on specific rims. He didn't know how they were made**

* As far as he and I knew, "wired on" was originally an Americanism.

**Years ago I read a magazine article about an obscure division of Dunlop Tyres that made obsolete tyres for ancient vehicles (special order only!). The only thing that I remember is that one type had a rolled rubber bead. A cylinder of diameter equal to the bead seat diameter of the tyre was wrapped with sheet rubber, which was then rolled by hand to form the bead (like a packed condom). There was a lot of evil solvent used to fuse the rubber.  Could this be the clincher construcion?

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #18 on: 28 July, 2018, 06:21:04 pm »
has to be pre-WWII; check out the Warwick tyre tread, basically it is a mess of swastikas!  Dunno if that was accidental (which I would find hard to believe) or had political connotations.  The 'Warwick' tyre, an ideal gift for the facist in your life.... :o
But perfect for a Nazi Raleigh.

I'm here all week.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #19 on: 28 July, 2018, 07:09:04 pm »
has to be pre-WWII; check out the Warwick tyre tread, basically it is a mess of swastikas!  Dunno if that was accidental (which I would find hard to believe) or had political connotations.  The 'Warwick' tyre, an ideal gift for the facist in your life.... :o
But perfect for a Nazi Raleigh.

I'm here all week.

 ;D

Depending on when the ad was from, it need not be fascist; though the swastika had associations with 'Aryan' archeology from the latter half of the 19th-c., it was also just used as an 'ancient/mystical'-type symbol, and cropped up in all kinds of places. It wouldn't surprise me if it had vaguely healthy associations, that were only eclipsed by the late 1930s. I wouldn't wanted to have had to shift any old stock by 1940, mind...

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #20 on: 28 July, 2018, 07:32:38 pm »
It is primarily a Hindu/Buddhist symbol, which is why in the Far East you often see places of worship and coffins adorned with them.

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #21 on: 28 July, 2018, 11:40:55 pm »
some more old ads for tyres



from about 1912



This Clement bike has Dunlop tyres; later tyres branded as Clement were manufactured; I think it was the same company.

From the 1950s

Note that a beaded edge (clincher type) tyre was still listed at this time.



~WW1..?






Dunlop made tubs too


which is presumably what Reg Harris used (circa 1950)



late 1950's or early 1960's? The 'new' Dunlop logo may help to date it. [edit: the 'vector' logo appears to have been introduced during 1962.]

1966 ad



1930s?

different tyres in canada


cheers

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #22 on: 29 July, 2018, 11:08:32 am »
A set of turn-of-the-[19th]century diaries, published recently, included a reference to a man having to repair a puncture because his bike had 'cushion tyres'.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #23 on: 29 July, 2018, 11:08:54 am »
The French generally had a lot more naked women in their vintage bike adverts; reflecting body ideals of the time, most were more rouleurs than climbers.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: History of high-pressure clincher tyres
« Reply #24 on: 29 July, 2018, 01:40:26 pm »
Weren't the Michelins used by Van Impe in his TdF victory (and credited with giving him the descending edge that allowed him to win -which we now know to be crap because his advantage came from the lead-ballasted bottles that Cyril Guimard handed up for the downhill bits. Cyril Guimard did not deny this when the question was posed a few years ago!)
I think you are right; all part of the sales pitch for the tyres. Not sure how many stages were run with those tyres though. The lead weighted bidons were an old trick; Jean Robic is thought to have used them a generation earlier. I suppose they didn't chuck those bidons in the hedge when they had finished with them.... :o

cheers

Van Impe's win was 1976. He was apparently only using the Michelins on the mountain stages. The descending advantage was supposedly because they overcame his fear of rolling a tub off in the bends.

My first narrow pressures were on my Bob Griffin - Clement tyres on Super Champion rims, 22 on the front, 25 on the back. End of 1982 or early 1983. I think they were pretty current by then . I never felt that they were as fast or as comfortable as my cheapo Wolber Junior tubs! I too used to use tubs for training and racing before then (and 27x11/4" on cheap chrome steel rims for touring).