Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Racing => Topic started by: gonzo on 17 July, 2008, 02:34:27 pm
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Your views?
Is this good/bad for the sport?
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Good... he's an arrogant little c**t, and disliked in the peloton because of it, according to Romain Feillu.
So much for his high haemocrit since childhood. If it is true that there is a test to detect 3rd gen Epo (CERA) then it may knock doping on the head for a while until something new comes out.
It makes you wonder if his team withdrew because they were afraid of other positive results. If they thought they had a foolproof system they may have all been on the juice.
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It saddens me as Ricco's arrogance in the mountains was great to watch.
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Good - They're still catching them
Bad - They're still there to be caught
Seems the whole Saunier Duval team has pulled out unlike the other two teams involved this year
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There is nothing as exciting as a drug-fuelled rampage up the mountains. Possibly one of the reasons why watching Evans is so dull.
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Certainly bad for the sport, or at least how it's perceived.
Eg:
Me: "Can I change the channel so I can catch the Tour highlights?"
Family Member: "Why bother? It's just a bunch of druggies beating each other up on bikes. Watch Big Brother or The Test Match if you want genuine sport."
::-)
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I think it's good in the long term. I'd much rather cheats were caught than have it all swept under the carpet like the old days. I don't understand how some still think they can get away with it though. I wish we could get to a stage where the consequences of doping far outweight the consequences of not winning. Teams need to take more responsibility in making sure the riders they employ are clean. How they would go about that I don't know.
I think Saunier Duval pulling out looks very suspect.
Short term and in the eyes of non cyclists it's bad, very bad, especially someone as high profile as Ricco with him winning a couple of stages and all. The press are going to have a field day.
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Interesting article written by a "doping expert" on cycling news (http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/?id=/features/2008/tour08_micera_st12)
Basically, he doesn't reckon that they can accuse riders of being on the 3rd gen EPO stuff.
Presumably the team docs thought the same thing.
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Trouble is it makes me cringe every time the commentators say something like "That's an amazing ride up the Col de Blah , I don't know where he gets his energy from..."
I wonder if it is actually some sort of code for them to indicate who they think is doping.
I feel sorry for all the clean riders too. If you crack on a stage because the pace is being driven by doped riders it affects the overall result.
Schleck followed two Saunier-Duval riders up the mountain with an "amazing" performance from 37 year old Piepoli. Last year Contador gained his winning margin by working with Rasmussen. Would Indurain have won again if Riis not been able to launch dope-powered attacks.
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There is nothing as exciting as a drug-fuelled rampage up the mountains.
Exactly. Which is why my overriding sentiment is that it's a shame Ricco, Piepoli and Cobo are out. The same as last year when Rasmussen was kicked out.
I guess we're just waiting for the yellow jersey to build up a bit more of a lead before he's kicked out too.
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"That's an amazing ride up the Col de Blah ,
You called? Not sure how to take that one... ;)
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From the article linked to by Gonzo:
We can tell when someone's used it (CERA) but we can't declare them positive.
Hang on, this isn't something like medication for asthma or a cold that could somehow be mistaken for a banned substance. Is it not a chemical designed with the specific purpose of performance enhancement? Surely if they can tell someone has used it that in itself is enough.
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From the article linked to by Gonzo:
We can tell when someone's used it (CERA) but we can't declare them positive.
Hang on, this isn't something like medication for asthma or a cold that could somehow be mistaken for a banned substance. Is it not a chemical designed with the specific purpose of performance enhancement? Surely if they can tell someone has used it that in itself is enough.
I think that just means that there is no official WADA approved test for CERA/Micera.
From the article:
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Well, you see synthetic EPO in urine in the form of bars on an electrophoregram. If a rider's taken Micera, the bars are located in a different place to those you see in a simple containing synthetic EPO.
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So even though they can see the bars in the place they appear if the rider has been taking CERA/Micera there's nothing they can do since it isn't an official test yet.
They aren't in the place that the EPO test assumes they would be, so the rider cannot be found guilty of taking normal EPO.
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EPO has a legit medical purpose. Can't remember what it is though.
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There is nothing as exciting as a drug-fuelled rampage up the mountains. Possibly one of the reasons why watching Evans is so dull.
Quoted for truth, alas.
EPO has a legit medical purpose. Can't remember what it is though.
Boosting red blood cell count for people with low red blood cell count. Particularly, it's used in post-chemotherapy treatment to get people back up and hearty again.
Bah, I was enjoying his performance. I'll get back to rooting for Cav (who may make a record by getting stage wins AND the lanterne rouge!)
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Your views?
Is this good/bad for the sport?
Sport? surely TdF is a morality play, at its best a young man comes to his physical peak, alienating the strong elders who he needs to enlist to enable him to acheive his potential. He displays the impetuosity of youth and we see if his team can harness his raw energy to win the prize or if his character flaws will let our hero down. I blame the blurring of amateur and professional sport. Tdf should be part of a seperate tier, like WWF on wheels. The UCI should administer pure sport, Maybe this will happen if ASO win the Pro Tour battle. No bad thing in my opinion.
Damon.
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Good - They're still catching them
Bad - They're still there to be caught
Yep. My thought too.
EPO is used as part of cancer treatment.
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Good - They're still catching them
Bad - They're still there to be caught
Yep. My thought too.
EPO is used as part of cancer treatment.
EPO is used when the red blood count is compromised, usually through kidney disease. Anemia in Kidney Disease and Dialysis (http://www.kidney.niddk.nih.gov/Kudiseases/pubs/anemia/)
If the red blood count is lowered due to cancer treatments, then EPO is the treatment. So if you had been treated for cancer and your doctor said you had to be treated with EPO to bring up your red blood count, then that would be a legitimate medical treatment and allowable under UCI rules. I assume that the level of Haemocrit would still have to be below the allowable level of 50% but of course this would be stabilised medically and not subject to variations. A strong link with a major drugs company would be useful.
Damon.
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The past 12 months I have been reading Bikeradar web site fo rnews and reviews.
It's been a constant barrage of "XYZ found positive and banned" and very depressing.
Last year's TdF (like most of them now) marked a turning point in drug use. That was it, no more, they'd had enough, never again and so on.
Well, guess what, there's a week and a bit to go and a lab full of samples to be analysed yet.
The previous post was absolutely correct, "I don't know where he gets his energy from", well we do now.
Those poor bastards who do it by training hard are tarnished by association now. Even if you feel strong it's best to make out you are knackered and try to win by a tiny margin. Nobody wil lbelieve you if you win by miles now.
I hope that cheat Millar pulls a hamstring as well. Sure he's clean now but his body was built using EPO.
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Sure he's clean now but his body was built using EPO.
EPO is not a steroid, and it doesn't build bodies, however, I'm taking your statement in the narrow sense there, so let's rephrase.EPO gives you more RBCs, and it does have out-of-comp advantages, but it also has disadvantages. You don't boost your anerobic threshold, for example, by training with an artifically raised threshold, and then going to comp without it. Cav's an out-and-out sprinter with legs made of tree-trunks. Everything he does that is remarkable is in the anerobic regime. I would be profoundly sceptical of a claim that he's in materially better condition that he could have been, had he never doped.
People cheat. It's a very bad thing. If you think the correct response is a lifetime ban, then fair enough, but that has to be across the board. I don't think it's fair to ask whether a given former cheat may have a material advantage later on, and another not. So, let's not argue Cav's abilities in relation to former use of EPO, but let's ask what the penalty for doping ought to be. If you genuinely believe a lifetime ban to be the automatic response, then so be it. Otherwise, you really must conclude that he's served his time.
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I think you have mixed up Cav and Millar. Otherwise spot on wrt EPO. Steroid use in the off season is an effective way of building condition and recovering from injury. EPO may also help to build condition.
..d
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So far these have all been 'A' positives.
I would be interested to see how many of those caught admit to doping. My fear is that we may have a Salem witch hunt on our hands where some innocents are being thrown out with the bathwater.
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So far these have all been 'A' positives.
I would be interested to see how many of those caught admit to doping. My fear is that we may have a Salem witch hunt on our hands where some innocents are being thrown out with the bathwater.
The standard of work in the Landis case (OK, two years ago now) does lead one to be somewhat concerned. One also gets the feeling that they decided that as there wasn't a WADA test for the new EPO variant that they could chance it. However I don't know if AFLD are bound by WADA rules, so they may take an unapproved (by WADA) test and run with it.
..d
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I'm not bothered whether I watch the tour this year. In the past I used to watch it every night, but given the events of the last few years I just can't be bothered. If we have a few years of
drug free no one getting caught for doping / high Haemocrit levels then I may get enthusiastic enough to start watching it again.
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Good. Little sod looked to be flying the other day and when I heard his idol was Pantani - I was not surprised. When are the Italians going to learn?
I hope they catch more and more of the cheating bastards.
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Good. Little sod looked to be flying the other day and when I heard his idol was Pantani - I was not surprised. [...]I hope they catch more and more of the cheating bastards.
Yup. And if they don't like the rules, then don't sign up for the Tour...
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Good. Little sod looked to be flying the other day and when I heard his idol was Pantani - I was not surprised. When are the Italians going to learn?
I hope they catch more and more of the cheating bastards.
Did Ricco's ride remind anyone of Landis', er, miraculous ride in 2006?
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Ricco did well in previous races and tours though...
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Did Rocco's ride remind anyone of Landis', er, miraculous ride in 2006?
Argh. Testosterone would not have given Landis a performance like he had that day.
It's likely that he was on something, but you can't say for sure that he was on anything that would have induced that performance any more than you can say that Lance was on similar stuff (in fact you'd have more evidence of the second option).
Sorry, but this is something that really winds me up.
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It reminded me very much of Basso in the 2006 Giro and contador in last years Tdf. People on epo always seem to look incredibly healthy.
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Good. Little sod looked to be flying the other day and when I heard his idol was Pantani - I was not surprised. When are the Italians going to learn?
I hope they catch more and more of the cheating bastards.
Did Ricco's ride remind anyone of Landis', er, miraculous ride in 2006?
No, not at all. Landis rode a hard race from the start, effectively a long time trial. By the time people realised that he had paced himself properly it was too late to bring him back. It wasn't a spectacular performance in absolute terms, just everyone else let him go as they didn't want to chase (periero anyone?)
Ricco just rode away from the others at the same time, same place. Just like some of Panatani's amazing performances.
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..d
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I'll get back to rooting for Cav (who may make a record by getting stage wins AND the lanterne rouge!)
Yeh, the fastest/slowest sprinter in the world
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I'll get back to rooting for Cav (who may make a record by getting stage wins AND the lanterne rouge!)
Yeh, the fastest/slowest sprinter in the world
He still has to lose 15 mins over the slowest guys..
..d
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I feel sorry for all the clean riders too.
So would I if I knew who they were :-\
yet another bloody shambles just when it was starting to look very good for Britain >:(
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Cav can easily lose 15 minutes, there are big lumpy Alpy things up ahead and I don't think he's looking forward to them!
As for making Brits look bad, I disagree but even if you were right the media has a short memory. Get Vicky P hauling back a barrowload of Chinese gold and we'll be in love again. Not that I've ever been out.
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I'll get back to rooting for Cav (who may make a record by getting stage wins AND the lanterne rouge!)
Yeh, the fastest/slowest sprinter in the world
He still has to lose 15 mins over the slowest guys..
..d
Could be tricky, balancing losing time to a lantern rouge rival whilst avoiding elimination. I don't suppose that he will cross The Alps anyway
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Cav can easily lose 15 minutes, there are big lumpy Alpy things up ahead and I don't think he's looking forward to them!
As for making Brits look bad, I disagree but even if you were right the media has a short memory. Get Vicky P hauling back a barrowload of Chinese gold and we'll be in love again. Not that I've ever been out.
I was referring to the good press cycling in Britain and the Tour got last year with the London stages; only to be dashed following the usual scandals after it crossed back over the Channel
Maybe you are right and Britain should make the most of the kudos our Olympic cyclists get and not worry about the big pro races...
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I'll get back to rooting for Cav (who may make a record by getting stage wins AND the lanterne rouge!)
Yeh, the fastest/slowest sprinter in the world
He still has to lose 15 mins over the slowest guys..
..d
Could be tricky, balancing losing time to a lantern rouge rival whilst avoiding elimination. I don't suppose that he will cross The Alps anyway
There are two big days that will really hurt.. I really hope he does make it to Paris. The two hardest days are separated by the next rest day.
Another sprinters stage tomorrow..
..d
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Good. Little sod looked to be flying the other day and when I heard his idol was Pantani - I was not surprised. When are the Italians going to learn?
I hope they catch more and more of the cheating bastards.
Did Ricco's ride remind anyone of Landis', er, miraculous ride in 2006?
No, not at all. Landis rode a hard race from the start, effectively a long time trial. By the time people realised that he had paced himself properly it was too late to bring him back. It wasn't a spectacular performance in absolute terms, just everyone else let him go as they didn't want to chase (periero anyone?)
Ricco just rode away from the others at the same time, same place. Just like some of Panatani's amazing performances.
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I've still got that 'Landis stage' on my HDR and I rewatched it the other day.
Landis went hard from the start but didn't seem to be doing anything superhuman - one of the other riders rode on his wheel for a long way until apparently ordered to drop back by his team. The main theme of the commentators was the disorganisation of the main teams in the peleton who were leaving it to each other to organise the chase - in the end no one did.
Mind you - Landis looked bloody scarey at the finish line interviews.
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Look at Cunego - suffering. Perhaps he is NOW clean?
There are others too.
This year look at the time gaps. They are so close.
I hope Frank Schleck is clean.
Evans is too much of a goody goody two shoes to be anything but clean.
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Look at Cunego - suffering. Perhaps he is NOW clean?
There are others too.
This year look at the time gaps. They are so close.
I hope Frank Schleck is clean.
Evans is too much of a goody goody two shoes to be anything but clean.
My thoughts?
Cunego - was doped, now clean.
Schleck - not sure. <might have got away with it, so will now ride clean.> Hope he didn't.
Evans - clean. He's a hard determined bastard.
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I agree.
Looking back at history, you have people like Anquetil (sic) admitting that he was a pin cushion so why are the other 'main' contenders going to be any different? Especially in a sport that sort of had it as an unspoken and accepted rule?
But now things are changing - I believe there is hope. If the majority are clean and the cheats are going to be exposed and expelled then the new guard, the new ethos will prevail and they will have to be clean to make a living.
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<snip> People on epo always seem to look incredibly healthy.
Right up until the point that their heart gives up trying to pump sludge...
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I don't think that has happened since the early 90's.
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As mentioned above the penalty for drug cheating needs to be strong enough to provide the correct deterrent.
Stephen Roche suggested yesterday that a guilty rider should be excluded for life.
Mr. Roche gets my vote.
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I'll get back to rooting for Cav (who may make a record by getting stage wins AND the lanterne rouge!)
Yeh, the fastest/slowest sprinter in the world
He still has to lose 15 mins over the slowest guys..
..d
Could be tricky, balancing losing time to a lantern rouge rival whilst avoiding elimination. I don't suppose that he will cross The Alps anyway
He just needs 10 guys to drop out and he becomes LR without losing any time - go Cav ! ;)
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Piepoli has been sacked. As I suspected, SD pulling out of tour was dodgy. Either it's a team based thing or Ricco dobbed Piepoli in.
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Some articles are saying that Ricco was fired for doping, but Piepoli was fired for violations of the team's ethical code. Either way, it's aggravating--I never liked Ricco (not that who I like matters), but I was pulling for Piepoli.
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, but Piepoli was fired for violations of the team's ethical code..
Which means? Either there is an imminent positive, or he or Ricco has coughed under pressure (or the management knew all along)
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Or he knew about Ricco's doping but didn't tell the DS.
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Yeah, I dunno what it means--just reporting what I read. Andy's guess is probably a good one, but we're all guessing for now.
I really try not base my opinion of anyone based on their looks, but I have to admit that I've always thought of Ricco as "the evil boy scout"--clean-cut and youthful, but giving off a really warped (in a bad way) vibe.
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<snip> People on epo always seem to look incredibly healthy.
Right up until the point that their heart gives up trying to pump sludge...
[/quote»]
Yep; polycythaemia is nature's way of telling you to take it easy
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Somewhat ammusingly; a cycling-doping news page (2nd is english):
cyclisme-dopage.com - Tout sur le dopage dans le cyclisme (http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/)
Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.cyclisme-dopage.com%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GFRC)