Drop-bar touring bike shifters quandary - Sora STI vs Dura Ace Bar Ends vs ???

[Oxford_Guy]

Okay, have now ordered some 9-speed Dura Ace 7700 bar ends, my preferred Fizik Performance bar tape, and a pair of BL-R400 levers (which were about £25, so no great loss if I end up not liking them).

Not sure whether to invest in new cantis yet, or not - checking the clearance on my Cheviot, it doesn't look like would be easy to have a low straddle wire, which may be an issue for some - will post pictures later.

[Blodwyn Pig]

OR.... Run bar con for rear mech, on lhs of bars, and downtube shifter for front, on lhs, then put an insert bar end mirror on the rhs, after all, you do all the gear changing with your left hand when you drive.

Bar con on one side, downtube on other? 

MY EYES, THEY BURN!!!

No no no no ! Both on the LHS.

[Karla]

OR.... Run bar con for rear mech, on lhs of bars, and downtube shifter for front, on lhs, then put an insert bar end mirror on the rhs, after all, you do all the gear changing with your left hand when you drive.

Bar con on one side, downtube on other? 

MY EYES, THEY BURN!!!

No no no no ! Both on the LHS.

[Oxford_Guy]

Okay, have now ordered some 9-speed Dura Ace 7700 bar ends, my preferred Fizik Performance bar tape, and a pair of BL-R400 levers (which were about £25, so no great loss if I end up not liking them).

Not sure whether to invest in new cantis yet, or not - checking the clearance on my Cheviot, it doesn't look like would be easy to have a low straddle wire, which may be an issue for some - will post pictures later.

Pics of my current canti setup - would CX50s work or will I not be able to get the straddle wire low enough? Apologies for grubby bike!

[Paul H]

OT - Sorry, but as this thread has already wandered all over the place for five pages I don't feel too guilty.
IMO the two things that would most improve your braking are first better pads, something like the koolstop salmon or the BBB Tri Colour.  Secondly to get rid of the  fork judder a fork crown hanger
 www.sjscycles.co.uk/brakes/raleigh-front-brake-cable-hanger/

Before I changed it to straight bars, I ran my Cheviot with those brakes* and those two things and never felt the need for anything else. 

* Also with the same levers running Shimano 8 spd without ever having a problem.

[Brucey]

Not sure whether to invest in new cantis yet, or not - checking the clearance on my Cheviot, it doesn't look like would be easy to have a low straddle wire, which may be an issue for some - will post pictures later.

Pics of my current canti setup - would CX50s work or will I not be able to get the straddle wire low enough? Apologies for grubby bike!

I think that the straddle at the rear can't be moved up  a long way because of the rack mounts. I don't think this will matter with BR-CX50 (or most of the other mid-arm cantis listed previously) because the long cable run to the rear brake impairs the brake enough that a higher MA is desirable. [BTW  I think that your LBS is correct in that there will likely be a clash if you were to fit Vs or mini Vs to the rear.]

At the front I would suggest an uphanger if juddering is an issue.  I would also (as a priority item) lash the wiring for the lighting to the crown bracket to provide some strain relief  for the wiring where it attaches to the headlamp; the setup as you have it is exactly the sort of thing that I would expect to cause a fatigue failure of the wiring; there is an unsupported  length of wire that will be flapping up and down.

FWIW the brake cable pull of the campag ergos is comparable to the cable pull of BL-R400. If anything BL-R400 may give a bit more power.  I would probably be happy enough with that brake setup with the CR720s until I got a load on, and then I'd probably  want a bit more power.  Try it and see how you go; not everyone is equally happy pulling equally hard on the levers.

BTW even with limited scope for straddle height adjustment, a set of mid-arm cantis will offer significantly increased power vs the CR720 brakes, if you need that.

cheers

[Karla]

Simple solution: get some different rack mounting arms.  Tubus and Tortec both make them.

[Oxford_Guy]

Not sure whether to invest in new cantis yet, or not - checking the clearance on my Cheviot, it doesn't look like would be easy to have a low straddle wire, which may be an issue for some - will post pictures later.

Pics of my current canti setup - would CX50s work or will I not be able to get the straddle wire low enough? Apologies for grubby bike!

I think that the straddle at the rear can't be moved up  a long way because of the rack mounts. I don't think this will matter with BR-CX50 (or most of the other mid-arm cantis listed previously) because the long cable run to the rear brake impairs the brake enough that a higher MA is desirable. [BTW  I think that your LBS is correct in that there will likely be a clash if you were to fit Vs or mini Vs to the rear.]

My concern was less about not being able to move the straddle wire high enough, but whether it would go low enough (both front and rear) for a high MA, given where the mudguards, light fitting etc. are?

At the front I would suggest an uphanger if juddering is an issue.  I would also (as a priority item) lash the wiring for the lighting to the crown bracket to provide some strain relief  for the wiring where it attaches to the headlamp; the setup as you have it is exactly the sort of thing that I would expect to cause a fatigue failure of the wiring; there is an unsupported  length of wire that will be flapping up and down.

I might look into the uphanger Paul H linked to - I assume this means I'd also need to remove the current headset-mounted hanger, so would need to shim the stem up with another ring to maintain the height?

FWIW the brake cable pull of the campag ergos is comparable to the cable pull of BL-R400. If anything BL-R400 may give a bit more power.

So presumably the Cane Creek SCR-5's would also be comparable, as they seem to almost be a copy of the Campag Ergos?

I would probably be happy enough with that brake setup with the CR720s until I got a load on, and then I'd probably  want a bit more power.  Try it and see how you go; not everyone is equally happy pulling equally hard on the levers.

BTW even with limited scope for straddle height adjustment, a set of mid-arm cantis will offer significantly increased power vs the CR720 brakes, if you need that.

I might see how I get on with different levers and pads (and uphanger) first, though am quite tempted by the CX50s (though would prefer the removable cart-type CX70s - can you still get the holders for these? Looks like (SJS sell the CX70 holders , though are a little pricey. or is all you need the shoes, like these?: https://www.lordgunbicycles.co.uk/shimano-ultegra-6700-r55c3-brake-shoe-set?option=4695

[Brucey]

My concern was less about not being able to move the straddle wire high enough, but whether it would go low enough (both front and rear) for a high MA, given where the mudguards, light fitting etc. are?

the straddles will go low enough for good power with most mid-arm cantis.

FWIW the brake cable pull of the campag ergos is comparable to the cable pull of BL-R400. If anything BL-R400 may give a bit more power.

So presumably the Cane Creek SCR-5's would also be comparable, as they seem to almost be a copy of the Campag Ergos?[/quote]

apologies if this is b. obvious but the shape of the hoods has almost nothing to do with the MA of the lever.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

My concern was less about not being able to move the straddle wire high enough, but whether it would go low enough (both front and rear) for a high MA, given where the mudguards, light fitting etc. are?

the straddles will go low enough for good power with most mid-arm cantis.

Okay, great

FWIW the brake cable pull of the campag ergos is comparable to the cable pull of BL-R400. If anything BL-R400 may give a bit more power.

So presumably the Cane Creek SCR-5's would also be comparable, as they seem to almost be a copy of the Campag Ergos?

apologies if this is b. obvious but the shape of the hoods has almost nothing to do with the MA of the lever.

True... My other option, if I don't get on with the shape of the BL-R400s would be to stick with my 2006 Campag Veloce Ergo levers, gut them of their gear shifting gubbins (with my LBS said they could do easy enough), and put new hoods on them. Combined with with CX50/70s, that may sufficient.

[Brucey]

re the shoes all you need to convert BR-CX50 to 70 spec is the brake shoes with a swivel in the base as fitted to current 105 and ultegra brakes, for example.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

re the shoes all you need to convert BR-CX50 to 70 spec is the brake shoes with a swivel in the base as fitted to current 105 and ultegra brakes, for example.

Great, so these would work? http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-br-6700-r55c3-cartridge-type-brake-shoe-set-pair

There's a silver version of these brake shoes available, which I think would match the silver BR-CX50 brakes...

[Oxford_Guy]

Thinking out loud, but would another possibility be to use Campag Chorus 11-speed Ultrashift shifters (which apparently should work with a Shimano 9-speed XT mech), but for the front mech to use a downtube shifter (and presumably to gut the left Campag shifter of its shifting mechanism)? These shifters can be got for about £150 currently...  If so, that's quite a tempting option.

[Brucey]

note of caution; not sure if campag have revised their brake  cable pull  or not. Last time I checked was a few years ago and they hadn't changed it but that may no longer be the case.

BTW if you particularly liked the 'old' hood shape on campag levers, note that the new ones are different to that.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

note of caution; not sure if campag have revised their brake  cable pull  or not. Last time I checked was a few years ago and they hadn't changed it but that may no longer be the case.

Well they do say that these levers will work with Avid Shorty Ultimate Cantis (as these levers are also used for cyclecross), so presumably they should work okay with other cantis?

BTW if you particularly liked the 'old' hood shape on campag levers, note that the new ones are different to that.

I can see they're a bit different, but still look nicer than the Shimano Sora hood shape (and I *much* prefer the way the levers work on Campag, I really don't like the combined brake/gear lever on the Shimanos like the Sora - my wife has these, I like my brake lever to not move sideways!)

But compatibility wise, this setup should work, right?

[Oxford_Guy]

note of caution; not sure if campag have revised their brake  cable pull  or not. Last time I checked was a few years ago and they hadn't changed it but that may no longer be the case.

Well they do say that these levers will work with Avid Shorty Ultimate Cantis (as these levers are also used for cyclecross), so presumably they should work okay with other cantis?

BTW if you particularly liked the 'old' hood shape on campag levers, note that the new ones are different to that.

I can see they're a bit different, but still look nicer than the Shimano Sora hood shape (and I *much* prefer the way the levers work on Campag, I really don't like the combined brake/gear lever on the Shimanos like the Sora - my wife has these, I like my brake lever to not move sideways!)

But compatibility wise, this setup should work, right?

Actually regarding the brakes, I'm getting confused with SRAM's levers...

BTW did Campag change the amount of gear cable pull after 2015?  Is Shimergo still viable with current 11 speed ultrashift levers?

[Brucey]

yes it will work with the caveat that the requirements for a true CX  brake are different from the requirements of a touring bike brake....

 A CX rider on a muddy course may choose a generous running clearance over a high brake MA; there is no point in having very powerful brakes anyway because the tyres will skid. On a dry course the brakes can have higher MA and a smaller running clearance. Avid shorty ultimates are adjustable between two configurations that give different brake performance so the brake can be adjusted to suit the conditions. Needless to say the ultimate power required for a CX bike is likely to be less than for a loaded touring bike.

Tektro CR720 give low MA and on a loaded touring bike most folk find the brake power is lacking unless/even if high MA levers are used.  The levers ought to have an MA of ~3.5:1 or 4:1 for reasonable power, i.e. that is likely to be acceptable for unladen riding. [By comparison current shimano levers with 'NSSLR' cable pull are less than 3:1, and only give reasonable brake power (i.e. still not really enough for laden work)  with certain cantis such as BR-CX50/70 models].

If you have levers that are 3.5:1 or better then your brakes will be no worse than they were and you have the option of more powerful cantis if you change from CR720 to a different model of canti.

BTW I have just looked at diagrams of the current model campag brake levers and it seems that they are still using the 'old' brake cable pull, and have an MA of ~3.5:1. So they should work about the same as your old levers (with the caveat that the revised hood shape may alter where your fingers end up on the lever and this may change the way the brakes feel to you).

BTW whilst it clearly doesn't worry many riders I usually consider the benefits of integrated shifting on a touring bike to be both

a) not worth the aggro (eg choosing everything to be compatible....)  and
b) not worth the risks of crash damage; you can quickly find yourself £150 down in the event of quite a minor knock.

when indexed shifting was first introduced there was always a back-up 'friction option' (without which I doubt it would have gained any traction in the marketplace). This means that if the indexing stops working for any reason (which lets face it is not exactly uncommon) you just turn a D ring on the lever an carry on in friction mode.  This feature is retained on some models of bar end and DT shifter but no STI or ergo supports it, which can lead to many miles of misery if you can't fix your iffy shifting by the roadside. I prefer bar end/DT shifters for touring for this reason.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

yes it will work with the caveat that the requirements for a true CX  brake are different from the requirements of a touring bike brake....

If you have levers that are 3.5:1 or better then your brakes will be no worse than they were and you have the option of more powerful cantis if you change from CR720 to a different model of canti.

I'll be changing to CX50s, plus Swissstop Flash Pro pads in holders, which should help...

BTW I have just looked at diagrams of the current model campag brake levers and it seems that they are still using the 'old' brake cable pull, and have an MA of ~3.5:1. So they should work about the same as your old levers (with the caveat that the revised hood shape may alter where your fingers end up on the lever and this may change the way the brakes feel to you).

Great, my old brakes weren't terrible (better than the brakes on my wife's Sora-equiped tourer...), but could do with some improvement, especially when loaded

BTW whilst it clearly doesn't worry many riders I usually consider the benefits of integrated shifting on a touring bike to be both

a) not worth the aggro (eg choosing everything to be compatible....)  and
b) not worth the risks of crash damage; you can quickly find yourself £150 down in the event of quite a minor knock.

when indexed shifting was first introduced there was always a back-up 'friction option' (without which I doubt it would have gained any traction in the marketplace). This means that if the indexing stops working for any reason (which lets face it is not exactly uncommon) you just turn a D ring on the lever an carry on in friction mode.  This feature is retained on some models of bar end and DT shifter but no STI or ergo supports it, which can lead to many miles of misery if you can't fix your iffy shifting by the roadside. I prefer bar end/DT shifters for touring for this reason.

All good points, though my touring is more of the week-long tour in France sort, than"expedition" touring, also I use the same bike for commuting usually, where bar ends could be more of a pain. The reliability aspect of bar ends does still appeal, though - on top of my current lever problems have also had two gear cables break inside the right shifter within the last 12 months...

Anyway, at least I know there is another option now, think I've ruled out the Sora levers, though. Just don't like the way the levers work and sounds like the brakes would be worse...

[Brucey]

- on top of my current lever problems have also had two gear cables break inside the right shifter within the last 12 months...

this could be bad cables or bad luck but this (together with the other shifting problems you report) to me suggests that the cable housing/prep was probably poor; the reason is that if the shifter pays out cable on an upshift that isn't immediately taken up by the mechs, the cable flexes much more inside the shifter during every shift, and thus lasts about half as long as normal. If the cables are draggy the load is higher during downshifts too, again shortening inner cable life.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

Thinking out loud, but would another possibility be to use Campag Chorus 11-speed Ultrashift shifters (which apparently should work with a Shimano 9-speed XT mech), but for the front mech to use a downtube shifter (and presumably to gut the left Campag shifter of its shifting mechanism)? These shifters can be got for about £150 currently...  If so, that's quite a tempting option.

If going this route, what frictions shifters would be recommended for the front mech (-only)? Obviously there's the Shimano Dura Ace 7700s, but there's also friction shifters from Dia Compe and Sun Race, but not sure if they're the same quality. Also, thinking a bit laterally, if shifting on the Campag right lever fails whilst on tour, I could carry along the right hand 7700 lever and a spare gear cable to get me going again...

[Oxford_Guy]

Am also wondering if a JTEK Shiftmate 7 might help to get those Campag levers working with my Shimano XT triple front mech?: http://www.jtekengineering.com/shiftmate/shiftmate-7/

"This model is for mixing Shimano & Campagnolo triple road shifters with mountain bike front derailleurs and cranks or mountain bike front shifters with road triple crank sets."

I guess one issue might be that those Chorus levers are meant for a double, not a triple front mech...

[Oxford_Guy]

Am also wondering if a JTEK Shiftmate 7 might help to get those Campag levers working with my Shimano XT triple front mech?: http://www.jtekengineering.com/shiftmate/shiftmate-7/

"This model is for mixing Shimano & Campagnolo triple road shifters with mountain bike front derailleurs and cranks or mountain bike front shifters with road triple crank sets."

I guess one issue might be that those Chorus levers are meant for a double, not a triple front mech...

I asked JTEK about this, they replied: "Although the shifter has more clicks they’re not all full shifts so it would still only be suitable for use with a double front derailleur."

So, if end up going the Campag Chorus 11-speed route (which I still haven't decided on, despite buying them, I might still try out the Shimano 7700 bar end shifters and R400 brake levers first), I'll almost certainly need to use a downtube friction shifter for the front mech.

BTW @Brucey - out of interest, do you know what the cable pull/MA is like on the SRAM brake levers? Just wondering, as they might be an option if the R400s don't work out for me e.g.

https://www.sram.com/sram/road/products/sram-rival-1-brake-lever
or
https://www.sram.com/sram/road/products/apex-1-mechanical-brake-lever



 

[Oxford_Guy]

Okay, I've taken the plunge and have now had installed Shimano 77700 Dura-Ace bar-end shifters, Shimano BL-R400 brake levers and Shimano CX50 cantilever brakes, with the original all-in-one pads replaced by Ultegra brakes shoes (with a swivel back, allowing toe-in) holding Swisstop Flash Pro BXP pads.

So, first impressions - the new brake setup is phenomenal, very powerful braking, but with good modulation, leagues ahead of my previous setup (with Tektro 720s). I really wasn't expecting such a dramatic change to be honest. BTW this is with the stock fixed saddle wire that came with the CX50s. The R400 levers are fine and probably contribute to the good braking. Not as comfortable to ride on the hoods as my old Campag Veloce levers, but not too bad and I only ride on the hoods in heavy traffic anyway, usually a bit further back. The levers do exhibit a rattle, pretty sure from the plastic inserts - will either remove these or wedge them in with thick grease or something.

The bar-end shifters have worked out fine so far, the indexed shifting on the back is precise and the friction shifting of the front triple is easy to do. Takes a little bit of getting used to, moving my hands down to shift, but am finding it okay so far.

Will try to post some photos of the setup at the weekend.

[Brucey]

glad the brakes meet with your approval.  I think they are about as powerful as mini-Vs but with the advantages that

a)  you can adjust the MA/running clearance by varying the straddle height and

b) if the steering swings fully to the right, the brake (unlike Vs) won't be damaged

BTW re the SRAM levers, I think they use the same MA as campag and older (~1993-2008 1st gen DPs )  shimano . But I'm not 100% sure on that.

cheers

[adenough]

Don't know if I've missed it, but has the OP considered switching brakes to Long Drop DPs? I've done this successfully on a couple of my touring bikes due to the inefficient cantilevers supplied as original equipment. I don't run tyres wider than 32c though.