Split from the wonky thread - why is the chain on the right of a bike?

[Basil]

I mount from the right.  It feels easier and more natural.
I am left handed.

[Ben T]

I think the stuff about swords is imagined nonsense.

The vast majority of people did not go about armed with a sword.
It is to do with most people being right-handed and everyone working on the left-hand-side of a horse.

The bit in your link about teamsters riding on the left rearmost horse and hence wanting to pass on the right rings true (guess why they would be on the left-rearmost horse? Because you always work on the left side of the horses).

That might have become true eventually but go back a bit - why do horses only like people approaching them from the left? It's because that's what they're used to. And why is that what they're used to? Because that's what their ancestors were used to, and they've inherited their genes. And why is that what their ancestors were used to? Swords.

It has *nothing* to do with swords and *everything* to do with the majority of people being right-handed. Right hand. You hold the lead rope, bridle or other horse tackle with your right hand. So you stand on the horse's left-hand side.
Are you seriously now proposing genetic memory as well?
It is learnt behaviour by the horse because people handle horses in the same way now that they did 500 years ago. 800 years ago. Because people are mostly right-handed.

I strongly suspect that the tradition of 'mounting' a bicycle from the left started purely because bicycles were originally 'hobby horses' and that's the side from which you mounted a horse.

How do you know for  sure it has nothing to do with swords? I accept that yours might be one reason, but I'm sceptical that it's the main reason, largely because the top link on google for "why do we drive on the left" refers to swords. In fact, not only a link, but google's "accepted answer".

In fact yours is not even particularly good logic. If you're holding the horse's reins with your left hand, you're leaving your right hand free to do more dextrous tasks like opening the barn door.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I think the stuff about swords is imagined nonsense.

The vast majority of people did not go about armed with a sword.
It is to do with most people being right-handed and everyone working on the left-hand-side of a horse.

The bit in your link about teamsters riding on the left rearmost horse and hence wanting to pass on the right rings true (guess why they would be on the left-rearmost horse? Because you always work on the left side of the horses).

That might have become true eventually but go back a bit - why do horses only like people approaching them from the left? It's because that's what they're used to. And why is that what they're used to? Because that's what their ancestors were used to, and they've inherited their genes. And why is that what their ancestors were used to? Swords.

It has *nothing* to do with swords and *everything* to do with the majority of people being right-handed. Right hand. You hold the lead rope, bridle or other horse tackle with your right hand. So you stand on the horse's left-hand side.
Are you seriously now proposing genetic memory as well?
It is learnt behaviour by the horse because people handle horses in the same way now that they did 500 years ago. 800 years ago. Because people are mostly right-handed.

I strongly suspect that the tradition of 'mounting' a bicycle from the left started purely because bicycles were originally 'hobby horses' and that's the side from which you mounted a horse.

How do you know for  sure it has nothing to do with swords? I accept that yours might be one reason, but I'm sceptical that it's the main reason, largely because the top link on google for "why do we drive on the left" refers to swords. In fact, not only a link, but google's "accepted answer".

In fact yours is not even particularly good logic. If you're holding the horse's reins with your left hand, you're leaving your right hand free to do more dextrous tasks like opening the barn door.

I'm telling you because I was working with horses since before I learned to read.

You are arguing with someone using one website when your knowledge and expertise with horse amounts to one website.

My expertise amounts to 20-odd years of experience of living, breathing and working with horses, being the son of someone acknowledged to being one of the greatest horsemen in Australia, who has horse races named after him.

It is like someone who has never ridden a bicycle arguing with the Woodrup family about whether bicycles can be made of steel.

[Ben T]

I'm telling you because I was working with horses since before I learned to read.

You are arguing with someone using one website when your knowledge and expertise with horse amounts to one website.

My expertise amounts to 20-odd years of experience of living, breathing and working with horses, being the son of someone acknowledged to being one of the greatest horsemen in Australia, who has horse races named after him.

It is like someone who has never ridden a bicycle arguing with the Woodrup family about whether bicycles can be made of steel.

Living and working with horses doesn't make you a world authority on why we drive on the left any more than 20 years working with computers makes me a world authority on why Q is to the left of W on the keyboard.
Why don't you write to google and tell them they're wrong.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Google might not be wrong exactly, but they might not have hit on the basic reason. Because why did people wear swords on the left?

[Ben T]

Google might not be wrong exactly, but they might not have hit on the basic reason. Because why did people wear swords on the left?

So, as a right handed person, you could pull them out the scabbard easier - i.e. across the body. And therefore quicker, ready for battle.

It's the same reason all spiral staircases go anti-clockwise on the way down - so the inhabitants, defending the castle, coming down the stairs, would have room for a full swing of the sword, and the attackers coming up the stairs would have the 'hub' in the way of their swing.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Exactly.

[andrew_s]

Whilst it is true that mounting a horse from the right whilst wearing a sword on the left would be distinctly awkward, invoking swords just moves the "because most people are right handed" conclusion back a step, since swords are mostly worn on the left because most people are right-handed.

My belief is that the transmission is on the right because on that side a standard right handed thread gives a sprocket that tightens, rather than requiring a special left-handed thread. Right hand threading was standard before Sir Joseph Whitworth invented standard threading in 1841, and likely originated because right-handed people find it easier to apply high torque in that direction.

[Ben T]

Whilst it is true that mounting a horse from the right whilst wearing a sword on the left would be distinctly awkward, invoking swords just moves the "because most people are right handed" conclusion back a step, since swords are mostly worn on the left because most people are right-handed.

Yes, I see that - but when civilians were just using their horses to go to the market, visit friends, etc - it probably didn't matter which side of the road they used, similar to how it doesn't really matter nowadays on cycle paths. It was only when there were battles on that there was a sense of urgency, and thus there had to be a convention. So it was the knights with their swords that initially defined this convention.

Also even though I accept it's fairly rare amongst civilians to mount horses from the right, it was probably even rarer amongst knights.

If they'd needed a convention without swords, it probably would have been to ride on the left, but they didn't need one.

[Brucey]

... all spiral staircases go anti-clockwise on the way down ...

IIRC there is a castle in Scotland (Ferniehirst castle) where the spiral goes the other way, to allow for the left-handed inhabitants.  BTW their left-handedness was learned not inherent, as it was thought to be an advantage in battle to be left-handed and a left-handed mercenary was worth more money.

cheers

[Basil]

I can't remember which castle, but I've been in one where the spiral direction changed half way up.
I guess the idea was that if the attackers brought forward their left handed, the right handed​ defenders would fall back to this point where their left handed would be waiting to take over.  Or something.

[Kim]

This seems as good a time as any to say 'tendril perversion'

[Brucey]

is that a left-handed tendril? And from which direction would you approach it...?

cheers

[Ian H]

This seems as good a time as any to say 'tendril perversion'

That Flanders and Swann moment.

[Tigerbiten]

If they'd needed a convention without swords, it probably would have been to ride on the left, but they didn't need one.

In posh regency society, the postilion rider rode the left horse of the pair for better control.
This made the good seat on the right as you were not looking at the back of the driver.
Look where the Queen sits when "Trooping the Colour" as a perfect example of this.
So to pass good side to good side means right hand to right hand and you got driven on the left.

No knights in armour were involved in making this post ......... 


 

[mzjo]

And why are motorbikes the other way round?  Deliberate incompatibility?

Early motor bikes were adapted from bicycles and the rightwas taken up with the standard bike transmission needed to get the bike up to speed before firing up the engine.

In general European motorbikes have the transmission on the right (including BMW, Moto Guzzi and Ural who place the shaft on the right). Japanese bikes have the transmission on the left side, including the shaft on GS850. I think the Bantam must have been an exception because the motor was a mirror image of a DKW but my memory could be wrong. European bikes built with Japanese motors (and there have been a few) follow the Japanese convention.
Since the post-war Japanese motorcycle industry was built up motorising pushbikes and copying European machines this is surprising and doesn't follow the evolutionary theories.

[Brucey]

just checked to make sure; Ducati still has chain on the left....

I have long since given up having any expectations about which side the chain will be on when it comes to motorbikes....

cheers
 

[Salvatore]

I can't remember which castle, but I've been in one where the spiral direction changed half way up.
I guess the idea was that if the attackers brought forward their left handed, the right handed​ defenders would fall back to this point where their left handed would be waiting to take over.  Or something.

The staircase in the tower of Gainsborough Old Hall spirals in the 'wrong' direction. I was told (some 50 years ago) that it showed that it wasn't a defensive structure.

Fun fact: If you stand facing the north side of the building with the tower on the left

then turn 180 degrees (clockwise or anti-clockwise), you'll see

(click to show/hide)

the windows of the room in which Nuncio was born.

[rogerzilla]

This seems as good a time as any to say 'tendril perversion'

Chinese wisteria (W. sinensis) curls the opposite way around a support (left-handed) to Japanese wisteria (W. floribunda).  Trufax.

[mzjo]

just checked to make sure; Ducati still has chain on the left....

I have long since given up having any expectations about which side the chain will be on when it comes to motorbikes....

cheers

I had better check - now it will turn out that the British motorbike standard is on the left

Check made: BSA and presumably the rest of the British production chain on the LHS. Obviously motorcyclists don't wear swords, at least in the UK.

[citoyen]

and why do clocks go round...er...clockwise, when the earth spins anti clock?

Probably the perception that was the correct direction of time.  In the northern hemisphere the sun, moon, progress in a clockwise direction across the sky.

So presumably inherited from sundials?

[citoyen]

Is this thread an example of human dislike of serendipity or chance?

Who doesn't love a good story?

[jsabine]

and why do clocks go round...er...clockwise, when the earth spins anti clock?

Probably the perception that was the correct direction of time.  In the northern hemisphere the sun, moon, progress in a clockwise direction across the sky.

So presumably inherited from sundials?

But not vertical sundials.

[andrew_s]

Reading that sparked a memory: when I used to ride motorbikes I was confident leaning the bike fully over to the left but leaning to the right always made me slightly nervous. I am right-handed.

That will be the road camber.
If you are in the UK, and sane, you'll be riding on the left, so when leaning left you'll be on the banking, as it were, but on the right you'll be off camber. If you ask someone who learned to ride on the right, you'll probably find they prefer right turns.

[citoyen]

and why do clocks go round...er...clockwise, when the earth spins anti clock?

Probably the perception that was the correct direction of time.  In the northern hemisphere the sun, moon, progress in a clockwise direction across the sky.

So presumably inherited from sundials?

But not vertical sundials.

Of course, some early clocks were built to mimic vertical sundials - the astronomical clock in Münster Cathedral, for example.