New wheels - don't know where to start

[teethgrinder]

If you want to borrow a wheel to tied you over, I've got one with a six speed block on (I think). It's very, very low mileage. The bike it belongs to was bought by someone and ridden twice before being stored 20 years ago. I haven't got round to reassembling it yet, so the wheels are sitting in the garage.

I'd be verrrry careful how you respond to this offer, NSTN. 



H

Words from a man with experience?

At the moment I am leaning towards taking up pdm on the very kind offer of his wheel, and taking up Robbarker on his equally kind offer of building up a brand new matching front wheel, which seems like a good compromise. Thank you again for such nice offers, they are much appreciated.


I think that this would be a sensible option - I'm not being mean

Sounds like a good compromise to me. A wise choice for a low budget.

I'm not sure how anyone could accuse you of being mean? You, like many others, certainly me, have a limited amount of money.
You are using what you have to the best effect that you can and are putting a lot of thought and consideration into buying a present. Not the actions of a mean person by any stretch of the imagination.
Much better than you buying very expensive junk and thinking yourself to be generous because they spent a lot of easily afforded money, in my opinion.

It's the thought that counts and you're paying a lot.

[Jethro]

Had a new pair of wheels from Dave hinde last year which was the biggest mistake in ages and the worst wheels I have ever had.  needed re-building after just a few hundred miles.  Will never go there again.  Google him and you will see what I mean.

seriously considering having a new pair from Harry Rowland at the moment which may be a tad more expensive, but is it really worth buying on the cheap?

[Notsototalnewbie]

If you want to borrow a wheel to tied you over, I've got one with a six speed block on (I think). It's very, very low mileage. The bike it belongs to was bought by someone and ridden twice before being stored 20 years ago. I haven't got round to reassembling it yet, so the wheels are sitting in the garage.

Thanks Zipperhead, but he is getting around on his old 3-speed at the moment so no urgency on that side really. So no need for anyone to be, er, tied!

Thanks TG, like you say I am just doing my best to make the amount of money available go the furthest, which it looks like I will easily be able to given the kindness of yacfers, I am very lucky really.

(However, there is an ulterior motive - you've seen the fussing that went on last time Rob broke a spoke on his baby bike - I'm buying myself some peace, too, with any luck!)

[Zipperhead]

Thanks Zipperhead, but he is getting around on his old 3-speed at the moment so no urgency on that side really. So no need for anyone to be, er, tied!

It was merely a Freudian typo, and to think that I was outed by Hummers.

[Notsototalnewbie]

The decision has been made; pdm is very kindly going to send me his wheel and I would be most obliged if robbarker could build me up a matching front wheel if he is really sure he doesn't mind going to so much trouble. PMs have been sent to the people involved.

Thanks so much for all your help, I don't know what I would have done without you all (spent more than I could afford, probably, which would have been Not Good).

[Tewdric]

No problem - have replied to your PM.

[Tewdric]

Top marks, plus a few bonus ones, to DRC.  I emailed them just before 5pm this afternoon requesting the maximum recommended spoke tension for ST19 rims.  The following reply was received  55 minutes later:

Dear Mr Rob
                    the maximum spoke tension with ST 19 is 120 Kgf
Best regards.
MARINARI GABRIELE
D.R.C. SRL


Good guys.

Rob's new front wheel will be built to 120 KGf!

[Notsototalnewbie]

Excellent. Although what that means has gone straight over my head...

The guy I spoke to at Spa when ordering the components was also very helpful.

[Tewdric]

You have a front wheel!  I'll try and catch the post in a minute.



Nobody tell Anne I built it in the house!

<Edit>

Can't do that I don't where to send it yet!

[Polar Bear]

Looks like an excellent result on this one.   

[Notsototalnewbie]

That looks fantastic. He will be such a happy boy when he sees that.

Have pm'ed address (though perhaps Spa had put my billing address in the package for a minute there)

He is making noises about using the wheels before his birthday, shock horror! (pdm's is winging its way as I type). But he doesn't know how to use a freewheel tool or indeed what a freewheel tool looks like, so he is at my mercy as far as the rear one goes, anyway.   

[teethgrinder]

You have a front wheel!  I'll try and catch the post in a minute.



Nobody tell Anne I built it in the house!

<Edit>

Can't do that I don't where to send it yet!

That's a fine looking wheel jig you have there. I even spy a thingamajig for measuring the spoke tension. You take this pretty serious. (I just go by feel, but I'm just a monkey)
Out of curiosity, from a tinkerer (me) to a master, why did you go for maximum spoke tension? I thought it would be for a stiffer wheel, but it looks to me as if you've built it 2 cross. I would have thought a 3 cross would give a stiffer wheel.



I won't tell Anne. I build my wheels in my living room. Living alone has lots of good points.

[Tewdric]

That's a fine looking wheel jig you have there. I even spy a thingamajig for measuring the spoke tension. You take this pretty serious. (I just go by feel, but I'm just a monkey)
Out of curiosity, from a tinkerer (me) to a master, why did you go for maximum spoke tension? I thought it would be for a stiffer wheel, but it looks to me as if you've built it 2 cross. I would have thought a 3 cross would give a stiffer wheel.



I won't tell Anne. I build my wheels in my living room. Living alone has lots of good points.

I certainly don't view myself as a "master".  I look at wheelbuilding as a light engineering procedure, not an artform.  Having said that, I do find it immensely therapeutic and I like to do every stage properly.  Spokes have to leave the hub nice and flat against the flange, they are stress-relieved repeatedly during the build, tensioned as high as the components allow and I like the rim to be as true after building up as it was before, if not even better.  

Spoke tension is a particular obsession - we know that the strength of a wheel comes from the tension held within the spokes, and the tighter they are the less likely the lower spokes are to become loose under load, which is what leads to fatigue and eventual failure.  There's little difference to the way the wheel feels to ride, but there is in longevity.  

This is 3-cross by the way.

[teethgrinder]

I certainly don't view myself as a "master".  I look at wheelbuilding as a light engineering procedure, not an artform.  Having said that, I do find it immensely therapeutic and I like to do every stage properly.  Spokes have to leave the hub nice and flat against the flange, they are stress-relieved repeatedly during the build, tensioned as high as the components allow and I like the rim to be as true after building up as it was before, if not even better.   

Spoke tension is a particular obsession - we know that the strength of a wheel comes from the tension held within the spokes, and the tighter they are the less likely the lower spokes are to become loose under load, which is what leads to fatigue and eventual failure.  There's little difference to the way the wheel feels to ride, but there is in longevity. 

I see it as a chore, but once I get into it, then yes, it's very therapeutic. I like to do it properly too, it saves me he hassle of maintenance. I put my foot on the hub and pull the rim to de-stress mine, then re-true and keep doing that until it stays as good as it was before I de-stressed it.

Not sure about the maximum tension thing myself. I read that a well known wheel builder (Pete Mathews I think) strings his wheels up very tight and in spite of his claims as being the number 1 wheel builder, I've heard a few stories about his wheels not being all that good.
I was surprised at how loose the spokes were on my mountain bike. I wouldn't say they are too loose, just not as tight as I tension mine (I do them pretty tight, but don't go mad) But they've taken some massive hits, sometimes with camping gear and are still as good as the day I bought them. I thought I'd have had to re-true them by now.
I wonder if stringing the spokes up a bit tighter would help prevent spoke breakages when I tow my trailer?
It does seem logical (to me anyway) that a higher tension in the spokes would handle torque better.

Watch out if you build a Miche Primato track hub though. The flanges have a nasty habbit of going ping. I won't use those hubs again. Besides, the bearings are crap if you ride in the rain.

[matthew]

That looks fantastic. He will be such a happy boy when he sees that.

Have pm'ed address (though perhaps Spa had put my billing address in the package for a minute there)

He is making noises about using the wheels before his birthday, shock horror! (pdm's is winging its way as I type). But he doesn't know how to use a freewheel tool or indeed what a freewheel tool looks like, so he is at my mercy as far as the rear one goes, anyway.   

The time I used a new 'birthday present' wheel before my birthday I ended up in a big accident before my birthday as well.

'Fortunately'  the wheel was stronger than the forks, so teh birthday present survived.

Matthew

[chris]

ps. If the postage charge pushes the cost too high then maybe you could find a local wheel-building bike shop to match the price.  But that's not going to be easy as £100 is cheap for wheels.  Actually I was suprised to find Parker's price was so low.  I was expecting to say that you couldn't do it for under £150!

I've just ordered a pair of Sputniks on Deore hubs (about £93, around £40 less than Spa) from Parkers for yellow-ceitidhs Galaxy. I'll let you know what I think of them when they arrive (hopefully within a week).

[Notsototalnewbie]

Pdm's rear wheel arrived yesterday and is now on the bike; the freewheel has been successfully transferred and the frame only took a very tiny bit of persuasion. I am not sure I could have withstood the nagging if I'd made him wait til his actual birthday and he was anxious to check it all fitted. He has also managed to get the 23 tyre on there. I think I may have the joy of adjusting his gears at some point (or at least showing him how to do it).

He hasn't ridden it yet though; he seemed vaguely disturbed by matthew's cautionary tale about the bad luck of using a birthday present before one's birthday! Muhaha.

[clarion]

Kewl and somewhat heartwarming

[Tewdric]

He has also managed to get the 23 tyre on there.

Unfortunately there will be an increased risk of pinch flats and even rim damage if 23c tyres are used on rims designed for wider ones.  The tyres lie flatter and are more vulnerable when bumping along pothole-strewn urban roads. 

If you possibly can, it would be worth getting a pair of 700x28c tyres.  They needn't be too expensive, these, for example:

Pair Of New Michelin City Tyres 700 x 28c Road Tyres  on eBay, also Tyres Tubes, Bike Parts, Cycling, Sporting Goods (end time  10-Feb-09 13:04:29 GMT)

They may be heavier than 700x23c but Rob will be suprised how well they roll, and they will probably make the bike handle better too as they will put more rubber on the road and be the shape the designer intended.

[Notsototalnewbie]

I will try to persuade him of this; when he originally put the 23s on the old rims I told him it wasn't the best idea but he wouldn't listen. I believe our friendly LBS has also told him this! He is a person who usually has to make his own mistakes before he learns, though if he learns at the expense of new rims I won't be pleased and won't be buying him any more! Perhaps reminding him of the time he hit a really vicious concealed pothole and got pinched on both tyres will help (his old rims are also not designed for skinny tyres so it's the same thing).

I've got those tyres you linked to on my tourer in a 32 and I am very happy with them but then I like having a decent amount of rubber on the road!

[Notsototalnewbie]

Rob has been brought round to the suggestion of slightly-less-skinny tyres. I've had an email from him; upon receiving the shiny new wheel that robbarker has built for him (it just arrived) he is so delighted that I don't think he wants to risk damaging it.

He is adamant he wants any new tyres to be fully slick though so he won't consider the Michelin Cities. Bah.

I just need to get him to get rid of the old wheels now. He has obsessive must-keep-everything syndrome. Which is fine if you have a workshop or seekrit bunker, but I don't even have a separate bedroom (studio flat).

[Tewdric]

Rob has been brought round to the suggestion of slightly-less-skinny tyres.

Excellent!  I'm glad the wheel seems to have survived  Parcelforce too!

[teethgrinder]

Rob has been brought round to the suggestion of slightly-less-skinny tyres.

Excellent!  I'm glad the wheel seems to have survived  Parcelforce too!

Parcelforce, the ultimate test of a wheelbuilder?


I don't really know about slick tyres above 25mm. Can't fit anything bigger than 28 in some of my frames y'see. Schwalbe might be worth looking at and would be my first port of call. Specialised Armadillo 26mm tyres are more like 28mm, but are getting expensive.
Panaracer?
Continental?
Michelin?
They might do wider slick tyres, but none of those are especialy cheap, to my knowledge.
Maybe you could give Rob some links to SJS Cycles, Wiggle, Chain Reaction and the like and let him pick what he likes. Once he sees what is (probably more accurate to say what isn't) available for a low price, he may not be so fussy.
Fatter tyres are good though. You don't need to run them at such high pressure (I usualy have 120psi for 23mm) and this can give a softer ride. They're less prone to pinch punctures and much better for carrying stuff. He won't notice any extra rolling resistance.

[Tewdric]

The same ebay seller I linked to above has a pair of Ultragatorskins at a good price - they'd be perfick.

[andrew_s]

Decent slick(ish) tyres in larger sizes are Gatorskin in 28, GP 4 Seasons in 28, and Panaracer Pasela in 28, 32 and possibly 35.

I generally run the 28s pumped up to 100psi initially, and do something about reinflating once the pressure has gone down to about 80