Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: Roy Rogers on 27 July, 2011, 10:22:24 am
-
Having just done a popular Audax, I found that the route sheet was the worst one yet.
No, not the route; on the contrary, it was a well planned & justified route, & well upto expectations. It was the turns & distances that were in doubt, almost from the start.
At one point it says take a 2nd R after a specified place name, yet it really meant a 1st R since all & sundry were going up there anyway. Distances to the turns were all falling short between 0.7 & 0.9 kms & that was near the start in an early stage. Later, things only got worse when, at an instruction to "continue around" 1 km to Control, when in-fact it was well over 2.8 kms (i.e. around 3.0) kms!! Not exactly what you'd expect when you'd be looking for something of say, + or - 0.1 km ("around"). So from the return leg to this same point now gave "around" 5 kms extra. So one had to read + 5 kms on all turns from now on. It didn't stop there though, since for all the paper-carrying afficionados there was a deceptive & final twist in this final leg. A sign had blown down or been knocked down & as I anticipated there was a turn at that junction, but didn't stop to check the fallen sign. Now this lesson could've saved me an extra 15-20mins & 4kms more, to add onto the already tiresome calculation of + 5 kms. When confronting the rather "Blase" Controller/Organiser with all this, well then all that he could utter was "well it takes a lot of time to do these route-sheets! Well, why the heck did you bother to do it wrong in the first place for all of us to follow!? I thought it was my wheel diameter that gave me doubts but after checking the track it made upon one revolution then that ruled that out.
I strongly believe until proven wrong, that most controllers don't check out the actual turns & write them down, but commit to memory which is folly on their part. So it might take a might bit more time than just riding the route & enjoying the scenery, but for one & for all why cann't "they" get it spot on for all who'll follow their routes & avoid many dismayed riders, most not voicing their ride so as "not-to-rock-the-boat", & it'll be alright until next time. No it won't! The same mistakes are there & glaringly stare out at you each time the same ride is done. Real actions & not just words are called for now.
-
Maybe most routesheets are so good that our expectations are rather high...
It's a big task, and there are bound to be transcription errors, difference between your computer & the org's and changes in signs etc on the day. There's only one ride I've ever done and said I'd never do again, because I thought the routesheet was inadequate and misleading.
Using GPS tracks may fix all this (eventually)
-
It's always a difficult job to get routesheets accurate and to suit everyone.
I've given-up on MS Autoroute (I beleive an AUK prefered mapping medium) because it's so inaccurate. For those that wish argue this, I'm happy to supply my experiences.
I'm not defending the organiser or route sheet in question - thankfully for all it's not mentioned, and I don't beleive I have any form of vested interest in their event.
But you did mention "At one point it says take a 2nd R after a specified place name, yet it really meant a 1st R since all & sundry were going up there anyway." Just because "all & sundry were going up there anyway" doesn't mean that they were on the correct route as the organiser would have intended. Did you bother to eplore the possibility of a second right? I know that cyclists regularly go "off-piste" on some of my events - great, they do it at their own risk.
On one of my 300s a coule of weekends ago, I was called-up by a cyclist who was a bit miffed that the route sheet was rubbish and they was lost. It quickly became apparent that they'd gone off-piste because of a they'd use a bit of there own local knowledge - that didn't work.
I'm sorry that you had a bad eperience, and I'm sure that the organiser would have also regretted what happened.
Organisers are usually proud to have cyclists come and enjoy cycling roads that they've previously found a pleasure (or challenge) themselves.
I regularly ride and check all my routes, which is why I seldom get the chance to ride other events.
-
If you are talking about the route I think you are (Hathersage start/finish), the organisor did mention at the start to several people while I was talking to him that the control at roaches was more than 1k from the right turn & despite the sign being knocked down, it was still easy to see & read the direction to Foolow. I found the route very easy to follow & I don't take any notice of distances as I always work of miles & not Kilometres.
Edit: If you want a perfect routesheet please pop along to one of Tamworth CC's audax events on the 10th September ;)
-
blahblah harsh words blahblah Real actions & not just words are called for now.
Suggested courses of action for you to take: vote with your wheels and don't do that organiser's rides again. And maybe a quiet constructive word or message to the organiser with suggested routesheet improvements. They are all volunteers you know!
-
blahblah harsh words blahblah Real actions & not just words are called for now.
Suggested courses of action for you to take: vote with your wheels and don't do that organiser's rides again. And maybe a quiet constructive word or message to the organiser with suggested routesheet improvements. They are all volunteers you know!
Yes. Boycotting future events from the org is the easy option, but if you want to see improvements the most positive Real Action would be to volunteer to route-check future events.
-
you've clearly not yet ridden the mildenhall audaxes.... we were 15km over distance already at the 50km mark. Most of the route had just been googlemapped and not checked (it was really obvious as googlemap has a habit of saying "turn right" whereas actually it's just a sharpish bend in the road with no junction).
Having just done a popular Audax, I found that the route sheet was the worst one yet.
No, not the route; on the contrary, it was a well planned & justified route, & well upto expectations. It was the turns & distances that were in doubt, almost from the start.
At one point it says take a 2nd R after a specified place name, yet it really meant a 1st R since all & sundry were going up there anyway. Distances to the turns were all falling short between 0.7 & 0.9 kms & that was near the start in an early stage. Later, things only got worse when, at an instruction to "continue around" 1 km to Control, when in-fact it was well over 2.8 kms (i.e. around 3.0) kms!! Not exactly what you'd expect when you'd be looking for something of say, + or - 0.1 km ("around"). So from the return leg to this same point now gave "around" 5 kms extra. So one had to read + 5 kms on all turns from now on. It didn't stop there though, since for all the paper-carrying afficionados there was a deceptive & final twist in this final leg. A sign had blown down or been knocked down & as I anticipated there was a turn at that junction, but didn't stop to check the fallen sign. Now this lesson could've saved me an extra 15-20mins & 4kms more, to add onto the already tiresome calculation of + 5 kms. When confronting the rather "Blase" Controller/Organiser with all this, well then all that he could utter was "well it takes a lot of time to do these route-sheets! Well, why the heck did you bother to do it wrong in the first place for all of us to follow!? I thought it was my wheel diameter that gave me doubts but after checking the track it made upon one revolution then that ruled that out.
I strongly believe until proven wrong, that most controllers don't check out the actual turns & write them down, but commit to memory which is folly on their part. So it might take a might bit more time than just riding the route & enjoying the scenery, but for one & for all why cann't "they" get it spot on for all who'll follow their routes & avoid many dismayed riders, most not voicing their ride so as "not-to-rock-the-boat", & it'll be alright until next time. No it won't! The same mistakes are there & glaringly stare out at you each time the same ride is done. Real actions & not just words are called for now.
-
If you don't look at a map first and check the route sheet directions, you will probably get lost at some stage. The organiser can never predict an event like that sign being blown down but if you have checked a map together with the route sheet prior to the event you already you have a much better chance to realise something is wrong.
-
Yes. Boycotting future events from the org is the easy option, but if you want to see improvements the most positive Real Action would be to volunteer to route-check future events.
+1 (or send in corrections afterwards to make sure it's ok in future years)
-
Suspect we have become used to too high a standard.
Presumably if your distances checked correctly then whoever checked the route's distance calcs was off. That's life. I've never had a problem like that as I don't have a distance gadget anyway and rely on my internal distance-o-meter which is usually near enough, and so am also quite happy with route sheets that don't quote distances between turns. If I were to be requested to provide a route sheet complete with distances then I can guarantee they'd be inaccurate, being based on what Google tells me (with any rounding errors) and/or holding a ruler up to the screen.
ie unless you have a GPS thingy that you have programmed with the then use distances as a guide rather than expecting them spot on between yourself and the routesheet.
As stated, minor changes like missing signposts can occur between route check and ride. In general I slavishly follow the route sheet as written and generally have few problems (and that includes last year's Mildenhall route, neither of which's errors approached the Balsham missing turning on a completely different ride).
I think it's just unfortunate that the combination of mismatches all happened for you on a single ride.
-
Yes. Boycotting future events from the org is the easy option, but if you want to see improvements the most positive Real Action would be to volunteer to route-check future events.
+1 (or send in corrections afterwards to make sure it's ok in future years)
Indeed. ranting at the Arrivee doesn't generally achieve much (and I know it's hard to be polite when there is adrenaline flowing, or you are plain knackered).
If I receive a polite letter thanking the helpers for their efforts, and noting routesheet corrections, I will be very grateful for the input.
As for distances:
Routesheets rarely NEED distances. Adding them seems to make some riders happy. Sadly it adds enormous potential for errors. As the OP demonstrates, this creates complaints.
So I don't see much motivation for an organiser to include distances ... :(
BTW, this is plain wrong:
I strongly believe until proven wrong, that most controllers don't check out the actual turns & write them down, but commit to memory which is folly on their part.
-
Whilst I wouldn't care to be seen condoning shoddy route sheet production, some of my favourite rides have involved getting lost in the wilds (not to mention finding the famous Welsh ultra-secret control). Conversely, at least one impeccably written sheet has taken me, without hesitation or deviation, round a very, very boring route.
-
I rode this Audax, and yes it does have the longest 1km in the world, but once you are on that road, you don't make any turnings, the sign being down was unfortunate, but that could not have been anticipated by any organizer; apart from that, it is one of the better route cards I've used, and is easy to read.
Although it's my first year doing Audax, I have done around 20 covering all distances from 100-600km, I've only found one to be really bad, with among others useful directions, a turn left direction with no SP, on a road with multiple opportunities to do that, most other have been good to great, but I have found it's always worth having a look on a map a few days before to get an idea of where the route is, especially the first few Km.
-
With the distances - 0.7 to 0.9 km out in what, about 50km? That's only 1-2% are you quite sure you measured your wheel to less than plus or minus 2%? Perhaps you did, but you can't insist that the org has done so too. Or perhaps you took a slightly different line on the bends to the org, or one of you wobbles a bit when climbing? Just maybe that was the distance you saved on the shortcut by taking the first instead of the second turn!
Personally, if I'm within 10 km at the end of a ride I consider that good going (as in I probably stayed on route). I know my distances can often be out, I don't bother to reset my computer when changing tyres from 23 to 28 and v.v.
-
Maybe this makes me a bit nerdy but I always take the route sheet sent as a starter for ten. I figure that if I get lost then it is me in the pickle and no one else. Hence, I map the route on the web (mapmyride, etc.) using the route sheet and then pull up google maps in street view to view the junctions that I am unsure about (also gives a chance to check signage, etc.).
Yes, it is all a faff and it does take an hour but I end up with a clear view of the route, a good soft copy of the route sheet (with personal annotations) that I can print out (and laminate) to stick in my map holder. It also gives me some degree of confidence so that I can enjoy the ride on the day. If/when I encounter a problem with the route sheet doing all of this I contact the organiser and point this out as soon as possible, as I have done previously.
Having said all that, I still reserve the right to do a wrong 'un :)
I still find it baffling when folks turn up without even the default route sheet. I have now seen this on 3 audaxes this summer and the response always seems to be "yeah, I will follow someone who knows their way", baffling, truly baffling.
-
I blame these foreign measurements myself. "Kilometres". Outrageous. No wonder things are going wrong.
-
Don't forget the impossible info.
Their faces just light up back at HQ:
"So you couldn't find it either? Fantastic! "
[This also saves on researching Infos.]
-
Or that the sign was obscured by bright sunlight at that time of the day (yes, seriously).
Or that the turning was on a descent, meaning they were going to fast to read it.
-
Or that the turning was on a descent, meaning they were going to fast to read it.
Ah! the easily missed turning that you always miss :facepalm:
-
As someone with no sense of direction whatsoever bad routesheets are the thing I most dislike about Audax rides. I have to say most routesheets are pretty good - indeed some routesheets this year have been astoundingly good. However, I've ridden events this year where it's clear the organiser hasn't checked the route in a long time.
My biggest gripe is with route sheets where - if you miss a turn - there's no way to get back on route.
e.g.
2nd left
right at T
1st left
etc .. with NO PLACE NAMES OR ROAD NAMES
Is it too hard to write
2nd left (White St)
right at T
1st left (Black Rd)
Then at least you can find your way back on route.
-
My events routesheet is not perfect but I do try and make it as good as possible
First time it ran 90% of the field got lost in the first 5km due to poor routesheetage
Me and Richie had test ridden it the weekend before, I'd spent hours on it trying to get it right. Sometimes it just doesn't work out.
Last time there were no major routesheet problems. I'd put down a misleading description of the town a R turn was in- it wasn't Midford- but the distance to the turn was correct and there was a major landmark (Crosskeys pub) to confirm that this was actually where to go.
The gps track went up the wrong, utterly terribly surfaced road to one of the controls. This was actually the most direct route but it is such a awful lane that the routesheet took a different way. Sorry Ianh
Usually, looking at a map before the event is enough to get over any little routesheet hiccups
The worst event I ever did had a pretty good routesheet
-
As someone with no sense of direction whatsoever bad routesheets are the thing I most dislike about Audax rides. I have to say most routesheets are pretty good - indeed some routesheets this year have been astoundingly good. However, I've ridden events this year where it's clear the organiser hasn't checked the route in a long time.
My biggest gripe is with route sheets where - if you miss a turn - there's no way to get back on route.
e.g.
2nd left
right at T
1st left
etc .. with NO PLACE NAMES OR ROAD NAMES
Is it too hard to write
2nd left (White St)
right at T
1st left (Black Rd)
Then at least you can find your way back on route.
Sometimes to add this additional information would make the routesheet very much longer
-
I strongly believe until proven wrong, that most controllers don't check out the actual turns & write them down, but commit to memory which is folly on their part.
I had the greatest of sympathy with your predicament until I read this comment later on within your story. In short, where is the evidence for this assertion? It seems a bit disingenious to the volunteer organisers when considering that many deliver successful events by placing a great degree of effort and pride into their organisation. So I am sorry to hear about your poor experience in this instance but please do not regard this as representative of most audaxes. I also hope that your experience does not deter you entering audaxes in future.
From my experience of riding audaxes, nearly all route cards have been spot on in terms of accuracy. When talking to organisers, I have generally learnt that they test ride the event within a couple of weeks beforehand for route card accuracy. Where I have noticed an error, I have generally pointed out this problem to the organiser at the end of the day. I note Fungus's comments on his excellent route cards, a point that I know to be true, ably assisted by Tamworth's test ride the weekend beforehand.
-
As someone with no sense of direction whatsoever bad routesheets are the thing I most dislike about Audax rides. I have to say most routesheets are pretty good - indeed some routesheets this year have been astoundingly good. However, I've ridden events this year where it's clear the organiser hasn't checked the route in a long time.
My biggest gripe is with route sheets where - if you miss a turn - there's no way to get back on route.
e.g.
2nd left
right at T
1st left
etc .. with NO PLACE NAMES OR ROAD NAMES
Is it too hard to write
2nd left (White St)
right at T
1st left (Black Rd)
Then at least you can find your way back on route.
Sometimes to add this additional information would make the routesheet very much longer
With respect Vorsprung I disagree. I've seen so many variations on route sheets that I believe it's quite possible to add road names to route sheets without significantly adding to their length.
Many, many years ago I was working on my first ever Audax route as an organiser and I spent a considerable amount of time trying to get the route sheet perfect. Then I got relocated and the ride never materialised. So really I ought to put my money where my mouth is and organise another ride. Then you are all welcome to find fault with it as you wish.
-
. So really I ought to put my money where my mouth is
I reckon all those folk who complain & crticise the efforts of volunteers should do likewise.
-
Maybe this makes me a bit nerdy but I always take the route sheet sent as a starter for ten. I figure that if I get lost then it is me in the pickle and no one else. Hence, I map the route on the web (mapmyride, etc.) using the route sheet and then pull up google maps in street view to view the junctions that I am unsure about (also gives a chance to check signage, etc.).
Yes, it is all a faff and it does take an hour but I end up with a clear view of the route, a good soft copy of the route sheet (with personal annotations) that I can print out (and laminate) to stick in my map holder. It also gives me some degree of confidence so that I can enjoy the ride on the day. If/when I encounter a problem with the route sheet doing all of this I contact the organiser and point this out as soon as possible, as I have done previously.
Having said all that, I still reserve the right to do a wrong 'un :)
I still find it baffling when folks turn up without even the default route sheet. I have now seen this on 3 audaxes this summer and the response always seems to be "yeah, I will follow someone who knows their way", baffling, truly baffling.
+1 to all that. My first calendar event was the Mildenhall '330'. However, by plotting a route I saw the errors and got 10km closer to its putative distance.
-
+1 to all that. My first calendar event was the Mildenhall '330'. However, by plotting a route I saw the errors and got 10km closer to its putative distance.
I suspect the main problem on that ride was expectation vs. reality. If he'd said route distance = X but nominal distance = Y then we'd have expected it to be longer than anticpated etc.
-
Just do audaxes in Scotland.
-
Why is this in the up coming events calendar ?
-
Why is this in the up coming events calendar ?
Mystery to me as well, but once it's in it's very hard to remove. I suppose the OP linked it by accident. It'll be passed by the end of today so I'd not worry too much about it.
-
When I was organising some rides I used a GPS for the distances between instructions. Then checking them a week later they could be as much as 1k out. I did a bit of research and the distances are affected by the position of the satalites at any particular time. I then stopped being quite so pedantic about distances, so long as it was about right say + - .2k.
I starting organising after saying at 1 ride (where the instructions were a solid block of text) that I could do better and was told to prove it. Thanks Dave.
Geoff
-
Having just done a popular Audax, I found that the route sheet was the worst one yet.
No, not the route; on the contrary, it was a well planned & justified route, & well upto expectations. It was the turns & distances that were in doubt, almost from the start.
At one point it says take a 2nd R after a specified place name, yet it really meant a 1st R since all & sundry were going up there anyway. Distances to the turns were all falling short between 0.7 & 0.9 kms & that was near the start in an early stage. Later, things only got worse when, at an instruction to "continue around" 1 km to Control, when in-fact it was well over 2.8 kms (i.e. around 3.0) kms!! Not exactly what you'd expect when you'd be looking for something of say, + or - 0.1 km ("around"). So from the return leg to this same point now gave "around" 5 kms extra. So one had to read + 5 kms on all turns from now on. It didn't stop there though, since for all the paper-carrying afficionados there was a deceptive & final twist in this final leg. A sign had blown down or been knocked down & as I anticipated there was a turn at that junction, but didn't stop to check the fallen sign. Now this lesson could've saved me an extra 15-20mins & 4kms more, to add onto the already tiresome calculation of + 5 kms. When confronting the rather "Blase" Controller/Organiser with all this, well then all that he could utter was "well it takes a lot of time to do these route-sheets! Well, why the heck did you bother to do it wrong in the first place for all of us to follow!? I thought it was my wheel diameter that gave me doubts but after checking the track it made upon one revolution then that ruled that out.
I strongly believe until proven wrong, that most controllers don't check out the actual turns & write them down, but commit to memory which is folly on their part. So it might take a might bit more time than just riding the route & enjoying the scenery, but for one & for all why cann't "they" get it spot on for all who'll follow their routes & avoid many dismayed riders, most not voicing their ride so as "not-to-rock-the-boat", & it'll be alright until next time. No it won't! The same mistakes are there & glaringly stare out at you each time the same ride is done. Real actions & not just words are called for now.
Get it sorted then. Contact the organiser and offer to help him fix it. Or dispense with your bike computer and don't get hung up on the numbers, jsut ride.
-
. So really I ought to put my money where my mouth is
I reckon all those folk who complain & crticise the efforts of volunteers should do likewise.
+1
-
. So really I ought to put my money where my mouth is
I reckon all those folk who complain & crticise the efforts of volunteers should do likewise.
+1
+2
with the advent of teh interwebs route sheets are now one of the major challenges to an organiser. Due to a combination of wood rot vandals and plonker drivers the signposts on my events change from one month to the next but there's always the temptation to bung last year's out prior to the final ride round (not least because most route sheets also include vital stuff like where the bloody hell is the start, and also serve as confirmation that the rider's entry has been received) usually the week before; and once it's gone out you don't want to end up with multiple versions.
-
Has the original poster considered that aggressive and abusive behaviour by riders and somewhat less than positive messages might just result in volunteer organisers who put in a lot of their own time, being unwilling to do so in future, resulting in the loss of such events?
-
Has the original poster considered that aggressive and abusive behaviour by riders and somewhat less than positive messages might just result in volunteer organisers who put in a lot of their own time, being unwilling to do so in future, resulting in the loss of such events?
I would say "no". Anybody who was to create an unjustified stink at a Beacon event would be instructed to bugger off, their Brevet Card ripped up and a sharp boot up the back side. Constructive feedback and politely identified corrections would result in a big thank you, possibly a tea cake and if resembling Victoria Pendleton, a big kiss.
-
Has the original poster considered that aggressive and abusive behaviour by riders and somewhat less than positive messages might just result in volunteer organisers who put in a lot of their own time, being unwilling to do so in future, resulting in the loss of such events?
Does this happen much? I mean aggressive / abusive behaviour by riders. I can't say I've ever witnessed it.
-
Has the original poster considered that aggressive and abusive behaviour by riders and somewhat less than positive messages might just result in volunteer organisers who put in a lot of their own time, being unwilling to do so in future, resulting in the loss of such events?
I would say "no". Anybody who was to create an unjustified stink at a Beacon event would be instructed to bugger off, their Brevet Card ripped up and a sharp boot up the back side. Constructive feedback and politely identified corrections would result in a big thank you, possibly a tea cake and if resembling Victoria Pendleton, a big kiss.
If she comes to your events.... I am too !
-
A teacake resembling Victoria Pendleton? Gosh!
-
Just do audaxes in Scotland.
The Jaded NW Highland 200km (one way)
Depart Ullapool north
TR Ledmore jnct sp Lairg 25.2km
TL Lairg sp Durness 68.1km
TR Laxford Bridge sp Durness 128.3km
At Durness carry on until Tongue 158.7km
Finish Control: Tongue 207km
OK, I simplified the bit around Lairg.
-
Has the original poster considered that aggressive and abusive behaviour by riders and somewhat less than positive messages might just result in volunteer organisers who put in a lot of their own time, being unwilling to do so in future, resulting in the loss of such events?
Does this happen much? I mean aggressive / abusive behaviour by riders. I can't say I've ever witnessed it.
Yes in 10 years of organising I have probably had 7 or 8 tirades, the worst was the idiot who complained when I would not tell him his placing, he threanted to "punch my lights out" me and never wanted to see me again. If he saw me in the street he would do it. I then had several silent phone calls in the early hours of the morning. May be no connection, but had none since.
Geoff
-
Does this happen much? I mean aggressive / abusive behaviour by riders. I can't say I've ever witnessed it.
It happened twice at a friend's event over two different years. Both individuals came from the same club, which says a lot about the club.
1. Mr X was dropped by his fellow club mates when he stopped for a comfort break. Mr X then feels it necessary to complain to the organiser by suggesting that the audax was a shambles due to riders treating it as race and that everyone should ride as a group. The organiser sends a stiff response and Mr X consequently withdraws the complaint and apologises.
2. Mr Y uses pratnav to find the GHQ, probably input the wrong code and became lost. He arrives 15 minutes after the start time. None of his club mates have waited. Mr Y hurls offensive abuse with four lettered words at the car park marshals before wheel spinning at speed out of the said car park. Mrs Y then sends abusive e-mail to the organiser and suggests that Mr Y came home distressed and that the organiser was solely responsible for destroying her peaceful day. Mrs Y continued by suggesting that the organiser was totally incompetent and that the entry fee was a waste of money. None of the other 400 entrants had the same pratnav problems as Mr Y.
Mr Y's name is located on my blacklist and any entry form received shall be returned forthwith. I will not be spending any of my time dealing with such nonsense.
3. I received a rather bizarre and abusive e-mail about my route cards prior to my last event. Apparently I was being unpatriotic for not using miles. It must have been a hoax.
Yes in 10 years of organising I have probably had 7 or 8 tirades, the worst was the idiot who complained when I would not tell him his placing, he threanted to "punch my lights out" me and never wanted to see me again. If he saw me in the street he would do it. I then had several silent phone calls in the early hours of the morning. May be no connection, but had none since.
Geoff
Hmmmmm. I would be curious to know if the individual was located to the south of you in a conurbation situated between Birmingham and Coventry.
-
Mrs Y then sends abusive e-mail to the organiser and suggest that Mr Y came home distressed and that the organiser was solely responsible for destroying her peaceful day.
Hilarious !
-
This is my fave thread at the moment
-
This is my fave thread at the moment
+1 :thumbsup:
On a serious note. Over the past eight years as an organiser, the abuse has risen quite steadily.
Not exactly abuse - but in an abusive situation, but the best statement I had the pleasure of witnessing was, "Cycling Auk events has nothing to do with riding a bike".
I'm still trying to work it out.
-
If this is the Hathersage organiser, then I find the OP's ranty rant somewhat hard to believe. This organiser's routesheets are so good, and so clear, I've used them as the template for my own routesheets since I started organising.
In my experience, one's GPS or odometer always ends up out of synch with a routesheet, but I've found two ways to solve this, for Peak District hilly 100s, I favour the Don Black/Sheila Simpson distance-free routesheet. Bliss.
For any other event, I've simply stopped using any sort of odometer or GPS. I keep my Garmin in my bag, just in case I get lost and need a map, but it no longer sits on my handlebars. Also, bliss! I know what 1/2/5/10km rides like, and so should you, Mr ranty OP.
-
I haven't ridden with a route sheet on my handelbars for a couple of years now; I usually have the paper one in my back pocket. For my 200 event It's possible to copy-paste the whole route sheet into a turn by turn text file even through it's printed in the normal 4 block to a sheet of A4 format. This can be downloaded to my Philips mp3 player which has a text reader function. If it could be stored on the garmin this would be even better.
-
Mr Ranty ;D
-
I hope this OP doesn't lead to any organiser thinking "paperless" is the way to go. I think routesheets are great for their variety and from an archive point of view. One of the great pleasures of Audax to me is sitting down with the sheet beforehand and working out on the maps where I'm going to go. Certainly, I've found the occasional error but I've never had anything but courtesy from organisers when I have pointed these out. Anyway, they are nothing like as numerous as the errors I manage to make while riding with perfectly blameless routesheets.
Earlier this year, I tried to update the original sheet for a very popular ride, which still mentions landmarks that were burned down by the Vikings. It's not any easy job: I've been round it 3 times now, and I'm still not sure of everything.
Strictly speaking, all we need is the controls; the rest is up to us. The routesheet is a big help but we are supposed to be self-sufficient. Carry a map.
As for the bloke who threatened violence when an organiser refused to tell him his "place", the correct answer is, "x hours behind Bob Johnson and Andy Clarkson". (X will be large.)
-
I hope this OP doesn't lead to any organiser thinking "paperless" is the way to go.
I doubt they will. Routesheets are too popular; they're part of the whole audax thing.
I don't even look at them on a map; I just stick them on my handlebar and off I go. All part of the adventure.
-
Same here. Laminate routesheet and stick it in the mapholder (except the Elenith and Brevet Cymru when I don't bother with a routesheet).
I usually only go off route when I'm riding with someone who has a GPS and I assume that they are actually looking at it.
-
I hope this OP doesn't lead to any organiser thinking "paperless" is the way to go.
what it may do is discourage someone such as myself, who has stepped onto the "organiser ladder"*,from continuing.
I get verbal shit at work & don't put up with it & that involves those who pay my fees so I'm not having it from some short-fuse knobhead who is benefiting from my volunteer efforts.
*I have lapsed in terms of resolving my routes :-[ & must make an effort to get them sorted:maybe.
I don't even look at them on a map; I just stick them on my handlebar and off I go. All part of the adventure.
+1
-
Does this happen much? I mean aggressive / abusive behaviour by riders. I can't say I've ever witnessed it.
It happened twice at a friend's event over two different years. Both individuals came from the same club, which says a lot about the club.
Yes in 10 years of organising I have probably had 7 or 8 tirades, the worst was the idiot who complained when I would not tell him his placing, he threanted to "punch my lights out" me and never wanted to see me again. If he saw me in the street he would do it. I then had several silent phone calls in the early hours of the morning. May be no connection, but had none since.
Geoff
Hmmmmm. I would be curious to know if the individual was located to the south of you in a conurbation situated between Birmingham and Coventry.
No Much more local to me than that.
Geoff
-
It wasn't me ;-)
-
I'm fascinated by the range of different approaches to using route sheets. I'm almost disappointed not to see more variety in their construction. Tulip diagrammes and herring bones, if I remember correctly from auto rallying at Uni, would add no end of spice.
-
Same here. Laminate routesheet and stick it in the mapholder
+1
(except the Elenith and Brevet Cymru when I don't bother with a routesheet).
+1
I usually only go off route when I'm riding with someone who has a GPS and I assume that they are actually looking at it.
+1
-
I hope this OP doesn't lead to any organiser thinking "paperless" is the way to go.
I doubt they will. Routesheets are too popular; they're part of the whole audax thing.
I agree, but I personally find that the whole experience of the ride is enhanced by being able to actually enjoy the views as afforded by a gps and wait for the reassuring beep rather than constantly looking at the next instruction. Route sheets certainly offer vital information it's just not possible to put into the gps (including in my case infos :-[)
inevitably though the numbers game will eventually call into question the value of a painstakingly written checked and re-checked route sheet... after all we're probably one of the few remaining cycling bodies that offer this on all events
(I feel a poll coming on)
-
I'm quite appalled that orgs get abuse. I'd hope that AUK would take a very dim view of any member behaving in such a way.
-
Same here. Laminate routesheet and stick it in the mapholder (except the Elenith and Brevet Cymru when I don't bother with a routesheet).
I usually only go off route when I'm riding with someone who has a GPS and I assume that they are actually looking at it.
:-[
-
I have only done a couple of audax events and those of relatively small distance as I am new to this. However, what has become clear to me already, is the amount of fun to be had and an appreciation of the effort put in place by the people who plan and organise these events. For me the experience so far has been wonderful and great fun, I would never dream of casting aspersions at any organiser. Unfortunately the dependency culture of 'you need to meet my every whim' seems to be a general trend these days.
-
Same here. Laminate routesheet and stick it in the mapholder (except the Elenith and Brevet Cymru when I don't bother with a routesheet).
I usually only go off route when I'm riding with someone who has a GPS and I assume that they are actually looking at it.
:-[
I should stress that I hold myself equally to blame in such circumstances as I should have been following the routesheet. Whatever you use, GPS or routesheet, ignoring it is not a good idea.
And as an aside, on one such occasion following the organiser wouldn't have worked as he missed the same turn and was found round the corner trying to get his GPS to get him back onto the route.
-
I'm quite appalled that orgs get abuse. I'd hope that AUK would take a very dim view of any member behaving in such a way.
If it's reported, the AUK committee will look at it and take appropriate action. However, I would think that most organisers are capable of dealing with tired and grumpy riders. It must be a very small minority who are seriously abusive and unrepentant.
-
I had to walk away from a few grumpy riders while doing the penultimate control of LEL.
I thought it might have been seen as bad form to laugh in front of them, so I hid around the corner. :D
-
I'm quite appalled that orgs get abuse. I'd hope that AUK would take a very dim view of any member behaving in such a way.
+1
-
It wasn't me ;-)
No he was very much bigger than you, and now rides sportifs where he gets his placeing.
The trouble with reporting to AUK is that the events are open to all, members and none members. But I would not have it any other way as it is a good way of starting newbies, " try a few and see how you like them" they are soon hooked. :thumbsup:
99% of participents are appreciative of the efforts of the organiser, and make the job VERY worthwhile.
Geoff
-
As for the bloke who threatened violence when an organiser refused to tell him his "place", the correct answer is, "x hours behind Bob Johnson and Andy Clarkson". (X will be large.)
It was even simpler He only had to count the large ticks of crossed off finishers to find his place. If that was what was important to him. The rest just had a pleasant ride and enjoyed the day. All were first equal :thumbsup:
Geoff
-
I had to walk away from a few grumpy riders while doing the penultimate control of LEL.
I thought it might have been seen as bad form to laugh in front of them, so I hid around the corner. :D
If you are manning a control in 2013.... please feel free to have a laugh at my expense - if I get that far !
-
I get verbal shit at work & don't put up with it & that involves those who pay my fees so I'm not having it from some short-fuse knobhead who is benefiting from my volunteer efforts.
I don't see what difference being a volunteer makes. When you volunteer you 'give' - you don't acquire rights (eg extra immunity from abuse) in return.
In this case the OP felt his route instructions were misleading - ie he was not 'benefiting' from the organiser's efforts.
-
I hope someone can help on this tread. I'm due to do my first Audax soon I intend to plot route on GPS but its possible it could fail (you never know) I intend to follow a route sheet as a back up and it also seems a challenge, so I have build my route sheet holder, well chuffed :thumbsup:
However some route sheets are Word Docs, some are excel the majority are A4 ???. I have spent hours trying to solve this. I wonder why there is not a standard template issued by AUK. Anyway
Would someone be kind enough to give me a solution to reducing them? Thanks
-
You can fold them in half. Depends on what size you want them to be.
-
The wide-spread facility to download the Excel or Word documents is fairly new - until a couple of years ago it was fairly rare. I have often taken a few photocopies of the supplied routesheet, and then cut and pasted it into the shape I wanted (I have the advantage of having access to a copier that will enlarge/reduce). The provision of the files saves doing that.
I strongly recommend that you do not rewrite the routesheet - just one error could prove disastrous.
Remember that whatever method you use, inkjet ink runs when it gets wet! And at some stage the route sheet will get wet. Laser printing or photocopying is much more reliable.
-
I strongly recommend that you do not rewrite the routesheet - just one error could prove disastrous.
Remember that whatever method you use, inkjet ink runs when it gets wet! And at some stage the route sheet will get wet. Laser printing or photocopying is much more reliable.
Two very helpful points thank you so much
-
You can fold them in half. Depends on what size you want them to be.
I and many other organisers supply routesheets as two columns on portrait A4. One of these, folded in four so that the two external sides are the relevant bit of the route, will fit in the standard issue brevet card zip bag, and fit nicely in a maptrap.
-
I hope someone can help on this tread. I'm due to do my first Audax soon I intend to plot route on GPS but its possible it could fail (you never know) I intend to follow a route sheet as a back up and it also seems a challenge, so I have build my route sheet holder, well chuffed :thumbsup:
However some route sheets are Word Docs, some are excel the majority are A4 ???. I have spent hours trying to solve this. I wonder why there is not a standard template issued by AUK. Anyway
Would someone be kind enough to give me a solution to reducing them? Thanks
I reduce them on a photocopier and then laminate them to a size that fits in a jersey pocket when I use them, otherwise a laminated copy goes in the rackpack fror emergencies and I follow the GPS! I've never been a fan of clipping routesheets to handlebars, but many/most riders are, so that's certainly worth considering.
-
Make sure routesheet is printed (A4) singlesided; photocopy if necessary to make it so.
Cut A4 routesheet page into four quarters.
Laminate quarters (all together on one A4 'pocket' will work).
Cut out four laminated pieces of routesheet.
Use standard holepunch to put 2 holes in the top of each piece.
Remove unnecessary weight of routesheet holder.
Use 2 zipties through the holes and round the bars so the routesheet sits on your stem.
As you ride along, if you need to go onto the next sheet either flip over or rip off and stuff in pocket the top sheet.
-
Make sure routesheet is printed (A4) singlesided; photocopy if necessary to make it so.
Cut A4 routesheet page into four quarters.
Laminate quarters (all together on one A4 'pocket' will work).
Cut out four laminated pieces of routesheet.
Use standard holepunch to put 2 holes in the top of each piece.
Remove unnecessary weight of routesheet holder.
Use 2 zipties through the holes and round the bars so the routesheet sits on your stem.
As you ride along, if you need to go onto the next sheet either flip over or rip off and stuff in pocket the top sheet.
I like that, it's simple (less to go wrong) and protected Thx
-
I like Paul's method, but don't you find that hole-punching your laminates makes them un-waterproof? :-\
-
I like Paul's method, but don't you find that hole-punching your laminates makes them un-waterproof? :-\
Yes, but not to the point that a wet welsh 600 renders the bottom one unreadable; just a small amount of bleed around an instruction or two.
Tip from experience: be careful not to punch the hole over a L or R, leaving you guessing at a junction. ::-)
-
I like Paul's method, but don't you find that hole-punching your laminates makes them un-waterproof? :-\
Not if you have a sufficient area of laminate that the holes fall outside the area of the paper.
-
Sounds like needing a small font to me, hence the need to stop and put on reading glasses every 300mtrs or so.
-
Sounds like needing a small font to me, hence the need to stop and put on reading glasses every 300mtrs or so.
Paul D is MUCH younger than us... ;)
-
Sounds like needing a small font to me, hence the need to stop and put on reading glasses every 300mtrs or so.
Paul D is MUCH younger than us... ;)
he also uses GPS
-
For me, the ideal routesheet format is:
A5 panels - supplied four up on A4 pages
Each panel - Three/Four column grid
Segment and cumulative distances in km.
ONE AND ONLY ONE INSTRUCTION PER ROW
Where possible, at least one collaborating item of information in each instruction (Road name, $ to, "Just past letterbox" etc etc)
CAPITALISED place names for places passed through (bold just doesn't show up well enough).
NEVER - UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE - USE COMIC SANS FONT :sick:
Actually, I can put up with no cumulative distances - as long as inter-instruction distances are accurate.
-
If there are info controls preferably all information needed to find the info control spot should be on the route sheet. So you don't have to look at both the brevet card and the route sheet to find the spot. That was nicely done on the Essex Air Ambulance 200 the other week - the infos were mainly at intersections and the route sheet said in bold font INFO CONTROL AT THIS INTERSECTION or something like that. Made it easy to stop, pull out the brevet card, read the question, write down or memorize the answer, and quickly move on without much faffage. :)
-
Lengthy Info stops add to the social aspect, as riders catch you up who might otherwise spend 80k just a few minutes behind you on the road.
please remember to thank the organiser for arranging this :)
-
My suggestion didn't specify font size, just that a quarter of an A4 page (A6?) is just about the maximum size for sitting on your stem without getting in the way.
But Toby is (as always) correct; I got bored with the laminater and bought a Garmin at the end of 2008.
-
I wonder why there is not a standard template issued by AUK.
There used to be a page of routesheet advice in the Handbook, giving recommended abbreviations etc, and showing how to lay out 4 blocks of text onto an A4 sheet to allow folding into quarters.
However cyclists are awkward buggers nonconformists independent-minded types and Organisers are no exception to this. There was so much evidence that Orgs preferred to do things their own way, and some evidence that riders enjoyed the variation - also the LEL route sheet (which one might hope represents 'best practise') did not follow the suggested guidelines - so the advice page was dropped a few years ago.
-
Where possible, at least one collaborating item of information in each instruction (Road name, $ to, "Just past letterbox" etc etc)
+1
-
Lengthy Info stops add to the social aspect, as riders catch you up who might otherwise spend 80k just a few minutes behind you on the road.
please remember to thank the organiser for arranging this :)
One way to see it. But this ride had nine info controls, one caff control, and twice returned to HQ which had sandwiches, cake etc on sale. So plenty of opportunities to rest and catch up/being caught up by riders. But sure, if there's only one or two infos no big deal.
-
A5 panels - supplied four up on A4 pages
That's quite a trick, unless you mean two panels each side of A4.
-
A5 panels - supplied four up on A4 pages
That's quite a trick, unless you mean two panels each side of A4.
Indeed. A5 is not half A4 in both dimensions. What I meant was - A4 quartered...
-
Make sure routesheet is printed (A4) singlesided; photocopy if necessary to make it so.
Cut A4 routesheet page into four quarters.
Laminate quarters (all together on one A4 'pocket' will work).
Cut out four laminated pieces of routesheet.
Use standard holepunch to put 2 holes in the top of each piece.
Remove unnecessary weight of routesheet holder.
Use 2 zipties through the holes and round the bars so the routesheet sits on your stem.
As you ride along, if you need to go onto the next sheet either flip over or rip off and stuff in pocket the top sheet.
And carry a cheap nail clipper with your tools to remove unwanted zip ties. This is getting like Viz Top Tips ;)
-
I wonder why there is not a standard template issued by AUK.
There used to be a page of routesheet advice in the Handbook, giving recommended abbreviations etc, and showing how to lay out 4 blocks of text onto an A4 sheet to allow folding into quarters.
However cyclists are awkward buggers nonconformists independent-minded types and Organisers are no exception to this.
I tell you what _I_ think would be useful ( hopefully to quite a few organisers):
a Word-95 template with the quartering done, and text set to flow between box-thingies.
I've bodged this several times and spent hours shifting text around, reformatting etc etc ...
[I may have gotten the names of some thingies wrong here - I don't get on with Word, I just know what it OUGHT to be able to do if I knew the right magic words. ( In Swahili? ) ]
-
I tell you what _I_ think would be useful ( hopefully to quite a few organisers):
a Word-95 template with the quartering done, and text set to flow between box-thingies.
got one of them; GOK how it was done but happy to send it out to anyone; essentially the whole route flows from top L to bottom R on each page in 2 columns and then spills over to the next page; just add spaces to format into the 4 box format :)
-
Indeed. A5 is not half A4 in both dimensions. What I meant was - A4 quartered...
A6.
-
Make sure routesheet is printed (A4) singlesided; photocopy if necessary to make it so.
Cut A4 routesheet page into four quarters.
Laminate quarters (all together on one A4 'pocket' will work).
Cut out four laminated pieces of routesheet.
Use standard holepunch to put 2 holes in the top of each piece.
Remove unnecessary weight of routesheet holder.
Use 2 zipties through the holes and round the bars so the routesheet sits on your stem.
As you ride along, if you need to go onto the next sheet either flip over or rip off and stuff in pocket the top sheet.
And carry a cheap nail clipper with your tools to remove unwanted zip ties. This is getting like Viz Top Tips ;)
Oh. no no no!
Keep all unwanted zip ties. In order on the bars.
"And this one (you'll notice it was only my third) :look heavenwards and sigh: is from the Tight Crimper 1987, you know, the year when we had sun, rain, sleet, snow, black ice and a tornado all in a day"
etc.
-
I tell you what _I_ think would be useful ( hopefully to quite a few organisers):
a Word-95 template with the quartering done, and text set to flow between box-thingies.
got one of them; GOK how it was done but happy to send it out to anyone; essentially the whole route flows from top L to bottom R on each page in 2 columns and then spills over to the next page; just add spaces to format into the 4 box format :)
Well, I am naturally suspicicious (as with all similar things) that this will actually perform as requested, but I would be grateful for a copy to test.
My first concern: does it manage the quartering, or merely split text into 2 columns? The tricky bit (well, 1 of them) is seeing where the horizontal fold is (while typing one's YACF-approved instructions).
Instant Poll: - do riders prefer a Top-L - Top-R - Bottom-L - Bottom-R flow? With portrait I suspect that's better, but the customer is usually right.
Bonus Question: does anyone else have a clue what I'm on about?
-
I don't care what order the four 'quarters' are arranged, as long as they're numbered so that I can find the next quarter to follow.
-
My first concern: does it manage the quartering, or merely split text into 2 columns? The tricky bit (well, 1 of them) is seeing where the horizontal fold is (while typing one's YACF-approved instructions).
the latter; however it's easy to see where the quarters need to be by doing a print preview and inserting line spaces;
it was done by Brian Mann's mate in Sudbury CC; who is now on my Xmas card list :)
-
I tell you what _I_ think would be useful ( hopefully to quite a few organisers):
a Word-95 template with the quartering done, and text set to flow between box-thingies.
got one of them; GOK how it was done but happy to send it out to anyone; essentially the whole route flows from top L to bottom R on each page in 2 columns and then spills over to the next page; just add spaces to format into the 4 box format :)
Well, I am naturally suspicicious (as with all similar things) that this will actually perform as requested, but I would be grateful for a copy to test.
My first concern: does it manage the quartering, or merely split text into 2 columns? The tricky bit (well, 1 of them) is seeing where the horizontal fold is (while typing one's YACF-approved instructions).
Instant Poll: - do riders prefer a Top-L - Top-R - Bottom-L - Bottom-R flow? With portrait I suspect that's better, but the customer is usually right.
Bonus Question: does anyone else have a clue what I'm on about?
I hope this isn't distracting you from researching the optimum order for BIC pens in a shirt pocket.
Because every fule knows that TL BL TR BR is the only way to go.
-
I don't care what order the four 'quarters' are arranged, as long as they're numbered so that I can find the next quarter to follow.
Numbering is vital - but if you want to double side them, then the order of the panels is not so easy - they have to be alternate, and reversed so that panel 2 correctly falls under panel 1, panel 4 falls under panel 3 (and so on) when printed using the "two passes through the printer" method.
-
And then there's all the wasted paper, with double prints, upside down prints etc.
-
Any desk top publishing programme will do the 4 boxes an A4 page/flow rext across bit and you can position each box individually.
Serif do one - watch out for their special offers when they bring out a newer version.
-
I used to do the four boxes (quartered A4) style. Now I just do two columns, on the grounds that folding 1) on the long axis then 2) on the short axis gives you one complete column on two sides of A6, work and tumble.
-
I used to do the four boxes (quartered A4) style. Now I just do two columns, on the grounds that folding 1) on the long axis then 2) on the short axis gives you one complete column on two sides of A6, work and tumble.
Right, I think I'm sold on this; partly as there is so rarely a 'natural break' in the instructions that would fit nicely at (e.g.) the end of Box 1. Thank you.
I hope this isn't distracting you from researching the optimum order for BIC pens in a shirt pocket.
I'm rather proud that after 8 pages of pedantic, anal nit-picking about routesheet format, it is MY modest contribution that has provoked Manotea's outrage :smug:
-
I would also leave relatively generous margins on the original A4 page, because ackshully slightly sub-A6 fits much easier into A6-ish placky bags. So - print in 2 columns (or 4 blocks), fold into 4 then scissors-trim just a couple of mm off the long outside edge.
-
I often fold or trim route sheets so they can fit in the top pocket of my jersey - very easy to pull them out. Can usually keep the next route sheet instruction in the memory even after a few hundred km. Leaves less clutter on the bars.
-
Of course another method to help the entrant to overcome preferred formatting options is for the organiser to:
- send out the routes sheets in a Word or Excel format to allow the entrant to manipulate the layout
- provide downloadable Word/Excel document from a webage (AUK's or their own site)
Of course the former only benefits entrants who use Paypal. Snailmail entrants would not benefit and would have to accept the intended format.
-
Of course another method to help the entrant to overcome preferred formatting options is for the organiser to:
- send out the routes sheets in a Word or Excel format to allow the entrant to manipulate the layout
- provide downloadable Word/Excel document from a webage (AUK's or their own site)
Of course the former only benefits entrants who use Paypal. Snailmail entrants would not benefit and would have to accept the intended format.
it would be better to send out the raw data and let the user decide what he wanted to format it with. A simple XML schema to define the document and anyone could write stylesheets for them to generate required formats. A UI could be provided to input the route data and facilitate the generation of the XML so organisers don't have to. It's all very doable. We don't want lock in to Word and Excel.
-
I agree with your last sentence, and understood the first one. The bit's in the middle may as well be swaheli AFAIAC, apart from
It's all very doable
Is it something that can be done as a template that entrants can use - i.e org sends out routesheet (text file ?) and entrant then pushes some buttons to make it look like he wants? That would be very cool.
-
I agree with your last sentence, and understood the first one. The bit's in the middle may as well be swaheli AFAIAC, apart from
It's all very doable
Is it something that can be done as a template that entrants can use - i.e org sends out routesheet (text file ?) and entrant then pushes some buttons to make it look like he wants? That would be very cool.
IMO a website where the rider chooses his format for download would be better. So long as the data is in a standard format, many different templates could be written for different formats. The org could send out a file, you mean the rider would download it right? The the rider could apply a template, he'd need some software to do it which is why I think a website would be better. It's a bit like GPSVisualizer, you provide a GPX it will transform it into something. In this case you provide a file containing the route instructions (or choose one from the site), you choose a format, the site transforms the route into the format.
Maybe I'll mock something up while PBP is on
-
Make sure routesheet is printed (A4) singlesided; photocopy if necessary to make it so.
Cut A4 routesheet page into four quarters.
Laminate quarters (all together on one A4 'pocket' will work).
Cut out four laminated pieces of routesheet.
Use standard holepunch to put 2 holes in the top of each piece.
Remove unnecessary weight of routesheet holder.
Use 2 zipties through the holes and round the bars so the routesheet sits on your stem.
As you ride along, if you need to go onto the next sheet either flip over or rip off and stuff in pocket the top sheet.
And carry a cheap nail clipper with your tools to remove unwanted zip ties. This is getting like Viz Top Tips ;)
Technology has advanced to the point where you can get reusable zip ties. We're heading towards the singularity, I tell ya...
-
[The guy knew it was about 3km so why couldn't he have said 3 km instead of being lazy/lying about it when it really was 3km? Things like this really get my back up & shows that Organisers/Controllers really don't care about seeing us riders ride without mishaps!
-
....shows that Organisers/Controllers really don't care about seeing us riders ride without mishaps!
No, it doesn't.
-
No, it doesn't.
<dons mod hat>
That's enough, by the way. Any further baseless grumping on this subject will be moderated into a fine tilth.
<doffs hat>
-
Ri@T's meet with forum* police response?
*pronounced like firm
-
Of course another method to help the entrant to overcome preferred formatting options is for the organiser to:
- send out the routes sheets in a Word or Excel format to allow the entrant to manipulate the layout
- provide downloadable Word/Excel document from a webage (AUK's or their own site)
Of course the former only benefits entrants who use Paypal. Snailmail entrants would not benefit and would have to accept the intended format.
it would be better to send out the raw data and let the user decide what he wanted to format it with. A simple XML schema to define the document and anyone could write stylesheets for them to generate required formats. A UI could be provided to input the route data and facilitate the generation of the XML so organisers don't have to. It's all very doable. We don't want lock in to Word and Excel.
All very doable - but first, you need the UI, & then every every organiser has to learn how to use it. They're then locked into using a particular bit of software. Doing it without the UI is hopelessly impractical.
I don't see how the proposal to send out Word or Excel 'locks in' to them. They're the most commonly used formats, & can be read by other software (e.g. OpenOffice). Given their preponderance, the likelihood of that changing in the foreseeable future is approximately nil.
-
Ri@T's meet with forum* police response?
*pronounced like firm
I think you're struggling with that one. But even if noone else finds it amusing, I think it will make an excellent crossword clue.