Post by: morbihan on 23 November, 2019, 04:41:15 pm
https://www.transcontinental.cc
Post by: mattc on 23 November, 2019, 06:42:45 pm
Post by: rob on 23 November, 2019, 07:12:15 pm
Can't see any route or controls there :-\ Do I need to watch the video?
I think the presentation is going on at LMNH at the moment. Might need to wait until it’s posted on the website.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 November, 2019, 07:24:29 pm
Mikko Just tweeted.
Breast to Burgas. Via Roubaix and Romania.
This looks great, tho I'm slightly worried that this means Pavé on the CP1 parcour. I hate pavé...
J
Post by: Phil W on 23 November, 2019, 07:34:04 pm
Mikko Just tweeted.
Breast to Burgas. Via Roubaix and Romania.
This looks great, tho I'm slightly worried that this means Pavé on the CP1 parcour. I hate pavé...
J
Are you entering for a second crack at it?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 November, 2019, 07:35:36 pm
Are you entering for a second crack at it?
Yes. I have unfinished business. If I don't complete it in 2020, I'll be back in 2022 to have a 3rd go. 2021 crashes with LEL.
J
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 November, 2019, 07:46:04 pm
At least I know how to get back from Burgas by train...
J
Post by: Phil W on 23 November, 2019, 07:54:14 pm
At least I know how to get back from Burgas by train...
J
This time you'll have time to get used to the heat as you head east. Best of luck with your preparation.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 November, 2019, 07:59:15 pm
This time you'll have time to get used to the heat as you head east. Best of luck with your preparation.
Yep, and 1000km run up to get to the mountains.
J
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 November, 2019, 08:47:22 pm
Website seems to be slowly updating, lots of dead links for the cp specific pages, but it outlines the route at least.
Start: Brest
CP1: Roubaix, France
CP2: Grosser Speikkogel, Austria
CP3: Durmitor, Montenegro
CP4: Transalpina, Romania
Finish: Burgas, Bulgaria.
J
Post by: bludger on 23 November, 2019, 11:49:54 pm
I wouldn't be too stressed about it, if it does go through the arenberg the tarmac on the right will be open and the gutters are really not so bad. I shouldn't think there will be much in the way of length. If the racers are lucky they'll be able to use the velodrome showers to freshen up!
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 November, 2019, 12:16:18 am
I was at the launch. Can confirm that there is pavé parcours though I don't know if it's been finalised.
I wouldn't be too stressed about it, if it does go through the arenberg the tarmac on the right will be open and the gutters are really not so bad. I shouldn't think there will be much in the way of length. If the racers are lucky they'll be able to use the velodrome showers to freshen up!
I've done Paris-Roubaix before, I know what to expect. Last time I needed ice on my arms from the rattling.
The canny dot watcher will go down the pave after the riders, and collect all the stuff that falls off to ransom back to us :p
Interesting a quick sketch route goes very close to Bitche and Fucking, as well as the other Brest...
I wonder what the finish parcour will be.
J
Post by: bludger on 24 November, 2019, 12:32:22 am
https://www.transcontinental.cc/cp4-tcrno8
Romania and the Carpathians are one of the few places in continental europe you might have a reasonable chance of running into a bear or wolves. It really isn't something to be sniffed at, especially if riders are going to be riding through the night and wild sleeping, with bike bags crammed with sandwiches giving off a delicious whiff.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473443 https://www.wildtransylvania.com/p/safety-tips-bears.html
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 November, 2019, 12:58:07 am
I think the parcours to be more concerned about is this one in Romania.
https://www.transcontinental.cc/cp4-tcrno8
Romania and the Carpathians are one of the few places in continental europe you might have a reasonable chance of running into a bear or wolves. It really isn't something to be sniffed at, especially if riders are going to be riding through the night and wild sleeping, with bike bags crammed with sandwiches giving off a delicious whiff.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50473443 https://www.wildtransylvania.com/p/safety-tips-bears.html
Nah, I'm so slow the bears will have eaten all the riders ahead of me and be full by the time I get there :p
J
Post by: Ivo on 24 November, 2019, 10:29:49 am
(When riding from Austria to Durmitor you'll have the choice between the heavily trafficed magistrale or the landmine infested borderlands between Croatia and Bosnia. With this routechoice it's only a matter of time before a rider blows himself/herself up when trying to sleep in a boobytrapped house in an abandoned village.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 November, 2019, 10:33:38 am
Yet again the TCR organisation has a weird concept of safety. Stressing helmets on the one hand and sending riders through bear and landmine infested area's on the other hand. Not my concept of safety.
(When riding from Austria to Durmitor you'll have the choice between the heavily trafficed magistrale or the landmine infested borderlands between Croatia and Bosnia. With this routechoice it's only a matter of time before a rider blows himself/herself up when trying to sleep in a boobytrapped house in an abandoned village.
In the new year I may have some questions on route choice for this leg.
The bears don't worry me, I'm more concerned for idiots with guns aiming for bears and missing, or idiots in cars who value being 30 seconds earlier more than my life.
J
Post by: Phil W on 24 November, 2019, 10:50:11 am
Yet again the TCR organisation has a weird concept of safety. Stressing helmets on the one hand and sending riders through bear and landmine infested area's on the other hand. Not my concept of safety.
(When riding from Austria to Durmitor you'll have the choice between the heavily trafficed magistrale or the landmine infested borderlands between Croatia and Bosnia. With this routechoice it's only a matter of time before a rider blows himself/herself up when trying to sleep in a boobytrapped house in an abandoned village.
In the new year I may have some questions on route choice for this leg.
The bears don't worry me, I'm more concerned for idiots with guns aiming for bears and missing, or idiots in cars who value being 30 seconds earlier more than my life.
J
I'd be concerned about the fierce dogs kept to keep bears off livestock. Maybe I've read too many stories about those dogs.
Post by: Salvatore on 24 November, 2019, 11:52:13 am
Yet again the TCR organisation has a weird concept of safety. Stressing helmets on the one hand and sending riders through bear and landmine infested area's on the other hand. Not my concept of safety.
(When riding from Austria to Durmitor you'll have the choice between the heavily trafficed magistrale or the landmine infested borderlands between Croatia and Bosnia. With this routechoice it's only a matter of time before a rider blows himself/herself up when trying to sleep in a boobytrapped house in an abandoned village.
In the new year I may have some questions on route choice for this leg.
The bears don't worry me, I'm more concerned for idiots with guns aiming for bears and missing, or idiots in cars who value being 30 seconds earlier more than my life.
J
I'd be concerned about the fierce dogs kept to keep bears off livestock. Maybe I've read too many stories about those dogs.
Same here. Sheepdogs in Romanian uplands (and elsehwere in that neck of the woods) are not the mans's best friends we see in the UK whose job it is to keep the sheep in line. Their job is to protect sheep from wolves, and unless you are a sheep or a shepherd, you might as well be a wolf as far as they are concerned. I've seen one in action in the Fagaras Mountains. It was a huge beast and had knocked someone down and was poised to continue the attack before a whistle from a shepherd indicated to it that we weren't a threat (and it became as friendly as a little puppy).
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Carpatin.jpg)
But I'm sure it will be fine.
Post by: mzjo on 24 November, 2019, 01:37:14 pm
Yet again the TCR organisation has a weird concept of safety. Stressing helmets on the one hand and sending riders through bear and landmine infested area's on the other hand. Not my concept of safety.
(When riding from Austria to Durmitor you'll have the choice between the heavily trafficed magistrale or the landmine infested borderlands between Croatia and Bosnia. With this routechoice it's only a matter of time before a rider blows himself/herself up when trying to sleep in a boobytrapped house in an abandoned village.
In the new year I may have some questions on route choice for this leg.
The bears don't worry me, I'm more concerned for idiots with guns aiming for bears and missing, or idiots in cars who value being 30 seconds earlier more than my life.
J
I'd be concerned about the fierce dogs kept to keep bears off livestock. Maybe I've read too many stories about those dogs.
Same here. Sheepdogs in Romanian uplands (and elsehwere in that neck of the woods) are not the mans's best friends we see in the UK whose job it is to keep the sheep in line. Their job is to protect sheep from wolves, and unless you are a sheep or a shepherd, you might as well be a wolf as far as they are concerned. I've seen one in action in the Fagaras Mountains. It was a huge beast and had knocked someone down and was poised to continue the attack before a whistle from a shepherd indicated to it that we weren't a threat (and it became as friendly as a little puppy).
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Carpatin.jpg)
But I'm sure it will be fine.
If it were me (and it most certainly won't be,not on your life) I would be inclined to hang my sandwiches in a tree at least 5m away from where I planned to sleep. That way the bear or wolf will probably be distracted long enough for you to wake up and exercise plan B (whatever that might be). And don't count on the landmines as protection, the wildlife will have a much better idea where they are than any human being.
Post by: Ivo on 24 November, 2019, 04:09:15 pm
Yet again the TCR organisation has a weird concept of safety. Stressing helmets on the one hand and sending riders through bear and landmine infested area's on the other hand. Not my concept of safety.
(When riding from Austria to Durmitor you'll have the choice between the heavily trafficed magistrale or the landmine infested borderlands between Croatia and Bosnia. With this routechoice it's only a matter of time before a rider blows himself/herself up when trying to sleep in a boobytrapped house in an abandoned village.
In the new year I may have some questions on route choice for this leg.
The bears don't worry me, I'm more concerned for idiots with guns aiming for bears and missing, or idiots in cars who value being 30 seconds earlier more than my life.
J
I'd be concerned about the fierce dogs kept to keep bears off livestock. Maybe I've read too many stories about those dogs.
Same here. Sheepdogs in Romanian uplands (and elsehwere in that neck of the woods) are not the mans's best friends we see in the UK whose job it is to keep the sheep in line. Their job is to protect sheep from wolves, and unless you are a sheep or a shepherd, you might as well be a wolf as far as they are concerned. I've seen one in action in the Fagaras Mountains. It was a huge beast and had knocked someone down and was poised to continue the attack before a whistle from a shepherd indicated to it that we weren't a threat (and it became as friendly as a little puppy).
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Carpatin.jpg)
But I'm sure it will be fine.
If it were me (and it most certainly won't be,not on your life) I would be inclined to hang my sandwiches in a tree at least 5m away from where I planned to sleep. That way the bear or wolf will probably be distracted long enough for you to wake up and exercise plan B (whatever that might be). And don't count on the landmines as protection, the wildlife will have a much better idea where they are than any human being.
Exactly. I've once heard a German soldier on EU duty in Bosnia use the word 'Minensuchtiere' Minesearchinganimals (he ment sheep). Whenever you could see their traces, the field could be considered safe.
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 November, 2019, 04:32:20 pm
Does that mean no aerobars, no mass start, or have they cleared it with relevant authorities?
Post by: mzjo on 24 November, 2019, 06:38:08 pm
I was intrigued to see the start in France.
Does that mean no aerobars, no mass start, or have they cleared it with relevant authorities?
Now I am intrigued as well. I didn't think there was any federation in France that specifically banned aerobars. They can be used in other audax, just not PBP as far as I know. Is my knowledge that far out of date?
I can see that a mass-start race might cause complications, but surely not any more than anywhere else? Please someone enlighten me?
Post by: JonBuoy on 24 November, 2019, 06:47:46 pm
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 November, 2019, 08:54:17 pm
I was intrigued to see the start in France.
Does that mean no aerobars, no mass start, or have they cleared it with relevant authorities?
Now I am intrigued as well. I didn't think there was any federation in France that specifically banned aerobars. They can be used in other audax, just not PBP as far as I know. Is my knowledge that far out of date?
I can see that a mass-start race might cause complications, but surely not any more than anywhere else? Please someone enlighten me?
It's French law, not PBP-specific: no (normal) aerobars in mass start events.
I've not actually looked up the law myself but that is what is the generally held belief.
Post by: mzjo on 24 November, 2019, 09:03:46 pm
Aerobars were permitted on PBP this year provided they didn't extend beyond the brake levers when they were checked.
Yes I forgot that. Let's say permitted without restrictions (and now someone will say that there are restrictions)
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 November, 2019, 10:55:39 am
I'm guessing another start parcour designed to spread the field out again. So the mass group is split up within the first 50km or so.
J
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 November, 2019, 12:57:38 pm
Well that's new. They've had too many people apply get a place then, not take the place, so they have put in a £25 fee to enter. Non refundable (tho it counts towards your race fee if successful).
I wonder if that will reduce the numbers applying, or of it will just piss off those who don't get a place even more.
Reading the race manual now.
J
Post by: S2L on 25 November, 2019, 01:45:10 pm
Mikko Just tweeted.
Breast to Burgas. Via Roubaix and Romania.
This looks great, tho I'm slightly worried that this means Pavé on the CP1 parcour. I hate pavé...
J
Plenty of routes into Roubaix that don't rely on pave'... it would be stupid to force riders to ride on the Paris-Roubaix pave'... it's just a recipe for disaster, with bikes loaded with bags and other stuff that can break or fall off and cause injury.
PR pave' is a lot more brutal than anything seen in the Flanders... it's the most unforgiving terrain I have ever ridden on
Post by: Kim on 25 November, 2019, 02:06:01 pm
Post by: bludger on 25 November, 2019, 03:19:32 pm
Yikes. I understand charging to register for the race but non-refundable if you don't get one is really shitty.
Well that's new. They've had too many people apply get a place then, not take the place, so they have put in a £25 fee to enter. Non refundable (tho it counts towards your race fee if successful).
I wonder if that will reduce the numbers applying, or of it will just piss off those who don't get a place even more.
Reading the race manual now.
J
Post by: S2L on 25 November, 2019, 03:47:56 pm
Yikes. I understand charging to register for the race but non-refundable if you don't get one is really shitty.
Well that's new. They've had too many people apply get a place then, not take the place, so they have put in a £25 fee to enter. Non refundable (tho it counts towards your race fee if successful).
I wonder if that will reduce the numbers applying, or of it will just piss off those who don't get a place even more.
Reading the race manual now.
J
Considering being part of it is an outlay in the thousands, I don't think anyone who is serious will be put off by a £ 25 gamble for a place.
Post by: Frank9755 on 25 November, 2019, 03:50:44 pm
I'm guessing another start parcour designed to spread the field out again. So the mass group is split up within the first 50km or so.
J
The long start parcour was a new thing for Burgas. There are so many fewer roads there than in western Europe and the main road out of Burgas is normally non-cycling so they needed to do something different. When it started in Geraardsbergen it was a case of eveyone going their separate ways from the top of the Mur. I'd expect something similar in Brest - a short loop round somewhere, maybe over the bridge and out of the city, then everyone going their own ways off into the night.
It was fun because you were soon on your own, but would then meet other riders at junctions and roundabouts for the first few hours.
Post by: Frank9755 on 25 November, 2019, 03:52:07 pm
Post by: bludger on 25 November, 2019, 04:24:21 pm
The TCR organisers always mention in their events that money shouldn't be an obstacle to participation. To then follow this up by demanding what could amount to 3 hours wages for some in non-refundable dough without even getting a place in the race seems regrettably regressive to me.Yikes. I understand charging to register for the race but non-refundable if you don't get one is really shitty.
Well that's new. They've had too many people apply get a place then, not take the place, so they have put in a £25 fee to enter. Non refundable (tho it counts towards your race fee if successful).
I wonder if that will reduce the numbers applying, or of it will just piss off those who don't get a place even more.
Reading the race manual now.
J
Considering being part of it is an outlay in the thousands, I don't think anyone who is serious will be put off by a £ 25 gamble for a place.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 November, 2019, 04:56:35 pm
The £25 to enter thing does seem a bit odd. I expect most people who got a place would happily pay an extra £25 to compensate those who had missed out!
What surprises me most is that it isn't £25 to apply. It's £25 to start applying. You don't even get the race manual until you cough up. I'd have put the £25 to submit, rather than to start it. There's info you get from the race manual that I've not found on the website, which would perhaps enlighten peoples decision making process.
I can understand it. 63 women were offered places on no7, 40 made it to Burgas. I don't know how many of those 63 paid up.
Approximately 20 riders who were offered a place, and paid their £350, didn't pick up their cap in Burgas.
If they have the same ~1000 people apply as in previous years, that's £25000 netted. A not inconsiderable amount, but on an event like this it doesn't go far.
The TCR organisers always mention in their events that money shouldn't be an obstacle to participation. To then follow this up by demanding what could amount to 3 hours wages for some in non-refundable dough without even getting a place in the race seems regrettably regressive to me.
There's an interesting gender element to this. I'm currently unemployed, so £25 is not inconsiderate, that's most of a week's food. So to gamble £25 for the chance to ride is quite a gamble. *BUT* Unless Fiona has inspired an extra 100+ women to be crazy enough to enter, the chances are that I'll get a space again. My odds are good. But to all the 1st time men, your odds ain't great. I probably wouldn't apply if it wasn't stacked in my favour so much.
I wonder if more people would have volunteered for tcrno7 if they'd known it's £25 to play the lottery for no8?
J
Post by: zigzag on 25 November, 2019, 05:00:37 pm
PR pave' is a lot more brutal than anything seen in the Flanders... it's the most unforgiving terrain I have ever ridden on
the most notorious arenberg trench will be one of them, my stategy would be to let some air out of the tyres and ride slowly - it's only 2.5km after all (20min?)..
things should be attached to a bike in a way that they stay attached.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 November, 2019, 05:08:10 pm
the most notorious arenberg trench will be one of them, my stategy would be to let some air out of the tyres and ride slowly - it's only 2.5km after all (20min?)..
things should be attached to a bike in a way that they stay attached.
Actually no. Check the race manual. Unless things change dramatically between v0.0 and v1.0, it doesn't go through arenberg.
Arenberg I could deal with, there's tarmac down the side, and a good gutter. There are other sections that are much more brutal. I also had the issue that I had to stop and remove all the shrubbery from my rear mech as I was riding in the gutter, and it was pulling all the grass out.
I'll wait to see what the official parcours says, but I'd be tempted to walk anything under about 400m.
Agree with you on the attached to the bike. Given the quality of the roads as we head east, this is going to be a good shake down of kit... Pun very much intended...
J
Post by: S2L on 25 November, 2019, 05:59:17 pm
The TCR organisers always mention in their events that money shouldn't be an obstacle to participation. To then follow this up by demanding what could amount to 3 hours wages for some in non-refundable dough without even getting a place in the race seems regrettably regressive to me.
If you want an event to be accessible to all, the first thing you do is a circular route A back to A, so that travel cost is significantly cheaper.
Then you make sure you provide somewhere basic to sleep, being that a roof of some sort, like a farm barn or a village hall.
Organisers have done neither, so clearly money is an entry barrier. I've never looked into it, but I would assume 4 figures is the starting point.
As such, £ 25 is really peanuts. It's probably just there to deter time wasters and people who think 25 pounds are a lot of money and clearly don't have the means to race safely.
Post by: grams on 25 November, 2019, 06:44:14 pm
I've never looked into it, but I would assume 4 figures is the starting point. As such, £ 25 is really peanuts.
There's a huge difference between paying £25 to participate in an opaque selection process completely outside your control that for the majority ends in rejection, and any expenses you incur to actually do the event. Rich people can afford to spend money to get nothing.
(I don't envy the task of selecting people for such a high profile event. I think it's only a matter of time before it's invite only or has actual qualifiers or some such)
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 November, 2019, 06:46:15 pm
If you want an event to be accessible to all, the first thing you do is a circular route A back to A, so that travel cost is significantly cheaper.
Then you make sure you provide somewhere basic to sleep, being that a roof of some sort, like a farm barn or a village hall.
Organisers have done neither, so clearly money is an entry barrier. I've never looked into it, but I would assume 4 figures is the starting point.
As such, £ 25 is really peanuts. It's probably just there to deter time wasters and people who think 25 pounds are a lot of money and clearly don't have the means to race safely.
Thing is, if you are cash poor, but time rich, you can do the race really cheaply. If you bivvi along the way, your only outgoings are your food. Assuming you have the bike.
I think the cost isn't the issue, so much as the fact it's such a gamble for so many people.
J
Post by: zigzag on 25 November, 2019, 06:56:50 pm
for the amount of experiences and memories tcr races were the best vfm "holidays" i had and they didn't cost "thousands".
Post by: S2L on 25 November, 2019, 07:53:42 pm
re budget, everyone's situation is different and there are many ways to do the race. e.g. one guy was riding a 100e bike with few upgrades last year and he was doing just fine. if you carry your own sleeping arrangement accomodation cost is minimal. food bill varies, you eat for 3-4 people, so it adds up quickly (mine was around 600e - discount supermarkets and occasional restaurant). travel to the start and from the finish - depends where you live. accomodation at the start and finish - again it depends.
In the thousands... just like a I said above... low or high thousands is down to the individual.
At the back of an envelope...
Travel to Brest + one night B&B shall we say 300 GBP
14 days of food, maybe 500 GBP
7 nights in various B&B along the way and other 7 nights bivvying let's say 400 GBP
One night at the finish in a decent place plus a decent meal let's say 100 GBP
Travel back to UK let's say 200 GBP with a lucky flight to Luton + train + extra to load a bike
ANd let's say another 100 pounds of extras
that's £ 1,600... maybe it's possible to do it for less... not a lot less
Post by: morbihan on 25 November, 2019, 07:56:48 pm
I appreciate that 25 quid can mean different things to different folks and Im sure that the team thought long and hard about just how to go about addressing it as sensitively as they could. I doubt if anyone could come up with a perfect scenario to resolve the issue of no shows.
The organisation are hyper aware about being inclusive. There are multiple examples of this in the race ethos from encouraging the inclusion of female racers until parity is reached, to spreading the net as geographically and culturally far as they can.
To that end the manual states that the excess from the application fees will be used as a bursary to assist under funded riders.
On to other things.. whats the deal with all the attention on the pave? How bad can a few km of cobbles be on a slow moving endurance bike? But then Ive never done pave.
Post by: Karla on 25 November, 2019, 07:57:11 pm
If you want an event to be accessible to all, the first thing you do is a circular route A back to A, so that travel cost is significantly cheaper.
Then you make sure you provide somewhere basic to sleep, being that a roof of some sort, like a farm barn or a village hall.
Organisers have done neither, so clearly money is an entry barrier. I've never looked into it, but I would assume 4 figures is the starting point.
As such, £ 25 is really peanuts. It's probably just there to deter time wasters and people who think 25 pounds are a lot of money and clearly don't have the means to race safely.
Thing is, if you are cash poor, but time rich, you can do the race really cheaply.
Yebbut then you're not racing, and shouldn't really enter.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 November, 2019, 08:56:57 pm
On to other things.. whats the deal with all the attention on the pave? How bad can a few km of cobbles be on a slow moving endurance bike? But then Ive never done pave.
It shows... I did Paris-Roubaix sportiv in 2018. I did the short version, which included 35km of pave. At the end of the 114km I had to get ice from the first aiders to put on my forearms. The shaking of the Pavé had caused the muscles and tendons in my arms to inflame.
A few segments of pave on the parcour will be survivable. 20+ it's gonna really hurt.
yebbut then you're not racing, and shouldn't really enter.
I'm sorry but I can't follow the logic here. Why does bivving every night preclude you from being competitive?
I was suggesting that if you rode to the start, and rode home again, then race between the two, sleeping in bus shelters, and under bushes, you don't need to have a hotel every night. There's a cheap youth hostel in brest, etc...
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 25 November, 2019, 10:06:45 pm
Costs are probably comparable to doing 12-15 UK audaxes.
Food is cheap east of Austria, as are hotels.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 November, 2019, 10:32:42 pm
everything costs money but tcr does not have to be expensive.
Costs are probably comparable to doing 12-15 UK audaxes.
Food is cheap east of Austria, as are hotels.
I was actually surprised by how easy it was to find hotels. Much easier than on RatN. One of the reasons I'm thinking of ditching the bivvi kit and relying on hotels for tcrno8.
Food shops were pretty rare along the start parcours of no7. Will make sure to plan resupply properly on the final leg this year.
Unless I'm reading things incorrectly, the 2 ferries across the danube we're limited to don't run 24 hours, so that's going to be a fun one to coordinate.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 November, 2019, 06:50:06 am
Unless I'm reading things incorrectly, the 2 ferries across the danube we're limited to don't run 24 hours, so that's going to be a fun one to coordinate.
J
Ha - I hadn't spotted they were ferries!
Post by: S2L on 26 November, 2019, 07:01:07 am
everything costs money but tcr does not have to be expensive.
Costs are probably comparable to doing 12-15 UK audaxes.
Food is cheap east of Austria, as are hotels.
That can vary a lot... I can do my local BP for 7 quid all included, or I can do a remote 600 which is going to cost me well in excess of a 100 pounds all in.
I'm not saying you have to earn 6 figures to do TCR, but I don't think you can do it if you clock shifts at Deliveroo either. Money is an entry barrier.
It is no coincidence that Apidura, Rapha and other premium brands thrive out of this and similar events
Post by: bludger on 26 November, 2019, 07:10:01 am
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 November, 2019, 09:07:48 am
everything costs money but tcr does not have to be expensive.
Costs are probably comparable to doing 12-15 UK audaxes.
Food is cheap east of Austria, as are hotels.
That can vary a lot... I can do my local BP for 7 quid all included, or I can do a remote 600 which is going to cost me well in excess of a 100 pounds all in.
I'm not saying you have to earn 6 figures to do TCR, but I don't think you can do it if you clock shifts at Deliveroo either. Money is an entry barrier.
It is no coincidence that Apidura, Rapha and other premium brands thrive out of this and similar events
I meant a dozen all day rides with a bit of travel and a decent amount of food.
But Chris White has analysed this stuff to death. He reckons €1200 is the minimum. Someone could go lower, but it would start to get a bit extreme and you need some contingency if you have to pack or if you get caught in a storm and need to dry out, etc.
https://ridefar.info/races/costs/ (https://ridefar.info/races/costs/)
Not everyone uses kit from the sponsors. I don't: there are plenty of alternatives and some are much less expensive. I have used Apidura kit but have found other stuff to be better for my specific needs.
Post by: S2L on 26 November, 2019, 09:14:56 am
But Chris White has analysed this stuff to death. He reckons €1200 is the minimum.
Not a million miles from my back of an envelope calculation of £ 1600 at current exchange rate.
Now, back to the point, if one is prepared to invest north of a thousand quid in the event, plus the inevitable cost in preparing for the event (clothes, bags, maybe bits for the bike like new tyres, new cables, new chain, new cassette, new bottom bracket and whatnot, maybe a few long events in preparation for the main event)... I don't understant how the same person could complain about having to spend £ 25 to enter a ballot.
When you buy a ticket for the lottery is not that you ask for your money back if you don't win. That is not an entry barrier to anything
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 November, 2019, 09:16:37 am
Re the entry fee, its been put in place to discourage places being taken up by riders who are hedging bets and not totally committed to race.
I appreciate that 25 quid can mean different things to different folks and Im sure that the team thought long and hard about just how to go about addressing it as sensitively as they could. I doubt if anyone could come up with a perfect scenario to resolve the issue of no shows.
The organisation are hyper aware about being inclusive. There are multiple examples of this in the race ethos from encouraging the inclusion of female racers until parity is reached, to spreading the net as geographically and culturally far as they can.
To that end the manual states that the excess from the application fees will be used as a bursary to assist under funded riders.
On to other things.. whats the deal with all the attention on the pave? How bad can a few km of cobbles be on a slow moving endurance bike? But then Ive never done pave.
I'm sure they thought about it and considered other solutions but it does seem odd.
What is the issue: is it people deciding not to ride at the last minute (no shows) or people declining their place immediately after being offered one and before they have paid?
If people no-show after paying £350 then bringing forward £25 is hardly going to change things, so I assume it isn't that. With people who decline before they have paid, it would be early enough to run another ballot on those who had missed out and make a second round of offers.
EDIT
What it might be is exactly that - people hedging bets because they might be trying for other events. I think last year the entry window might have overlapped with SRMR and some people may have applied for both in the hope of getting one. With more events coming along and also with less chance of getting a place, hedging bets becomes a more rational strategy.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 November, 2019, 10:05:57 am
What is the issue: is it people deciding not to ride at the last minute (no shows) or people declining their place immediately after being offered one and before they have paid?
It's this. People being offered places, but then not even making the first payment.
Quote
EDIT
What it might be is exactly that - people hedging bets because they might be trying for other events. I think last year the entry window might have overlapped with SRMR and some people may have applied for both in the hope of getting one. With more events coming along and also with less chance of getting a place, hedging bets becomes a more rational strategy.
For anyone who hasn't volunteered before or isn't a woman, the odds of getting a place are not in your favour. So given there are other races around the same time (SRMR, NC4K etc...), it's entirely reasonable to hedge ones bets. But if you're contemplating any of those, then £25 isn't going to be a major barrier.
I just hope it doesn't put too many women off. 40 of us rode in 2019, after 63 were offered a place. I don't know what effect Fiona will have on this but it would be great to more women riding.
J
Post by: Karla on 26 November, 2019, 10:49:51 am
I'm sorry but I can't follow the logic here. Why does bivving every night preclude you from being competitive?
I was suggesting that if you rode to the start, and rode home again, then race between the two, sleeping in bus shelters, and under bushes, you don't need to have a hotel every night. There's a cheap youth hostel in brest, etc...
"If you are cash poor but time rich you can do the race cheaply", that suggests quite a few things, not just riding there, and none of them will make you faster.
1) Riding there. Not the best preparation for a race, especially if you're bivvying. Still quite expensive unless you take cooking kit, in which case what do you intend to do with your extra kit before the start? Remember, it's a linear race.
2) Bivvying during a race. I'll defer to people like Zigzag, but the hotel approach has won it enough that it seems pretty certain to be faster. Right?
3) Cooking for yourself. If you're taking extra kit to cook rather than buying prepared food, you're not really racing at all are you? You're touring.
Post by: zigzag on 26 November, 2019, 11:16:06 am
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 November, 2019, 11:16:29 am
"If you are cash poor but time rich you can do the race cheaply", that suggests quite a few things, not just riding there, and none of them will make you faster.
1) Riding there. Not the best preparation for a race, especially if you're bivvying. Still quite expensive unless you take cooking kit, in which case what do you intend to do with your extra kit before the start? Remember, it's a linear race.
Emily Chappell rode to the start of every race she entered.
Quote
2) Bivvying during a race. I'll defer to people like Zigzag, but the hotel approach has won it enough that it seems pretty certain to be faster. Right?
What are you defining as racing? are only the top 10 racing? Are only those who aim to do it in sub 12 days racing?
I entered race around the Netherlands, knowing full well I'd probably come last, I gave it my all, and in the end, came 2nd. Was I racing? or touring?
Quote
3) Cooking for yourself. If you're taking extra kit to cook rather than buying prepared food, you're not really racing at all are you? You're touring.
Tell that to the riders of the SRMR.
Who said anything about cooking anyway? Food is dirt cheap once you pass by about Austria, and if you are sensible, you can get stuff pretty cheap in the west too.
One rider on RatN who was going faste then me until they scratched, had a tent, and a stove, and cooked their own porridge each morning. Were they not racing?
J
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 November, 2019, 11:29:58 am
my view is that even if using hotels is faster (if well planned) the difference of saving few hours for someone mid-pack would be neither here nor there, e.g. finishing 67 vs 76 - who cares.. for most people the aim is to finish before the race is over, to arrive in one piece, to give their best shot.
And for some, they enter it just hoping to survive, and end up doing much better than they thought they would.
IMHO, everyone who makes it to the start line is racing. They may not be racing each other, they may be racing the weather, or the route, or their own inner demons. But every one of them is racing.
If you're doing it on a budget, or you're doing it with dietary requirements, then you're racing on a higher difficulty level. But you're still racing.
J
Post by: Paul H on 26 November, 2019, 11:47:35 am
I'm not saying you have to earn 6 figures to do TCR, but I don't think you can do it if you clock shifts at Deliveroo either. Money is an entry barrier.TCR6 fastest female Ede Harrison, is/was a deliveroo rider, or it might have been Just Eat.
https://advntr.cc/ede-harrison-transconrace/
And I know of at least two this year, though I can't remember the names. One as their only income, the other as a part time job to fund their cycling.
I don't think cost is a barrier if you live in the West and are employed, in any job, you'd just have to want it enough. If money really is that tight, a couple of hours deliveroo three or four nights a week or some other part time work would easily fund it.
Post by: grams on 26 November, 2019, 12:02:57 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 November, 2019, 12:05:27 pm
TCR6 fastest female Ede Harrison, is/was a deliveroo rider, or it might have been Just Eat.
https://advntr.cc/ede-harrison-transconrace/
Exactly. Being a woman cycle courier has historically been very good for increasing ones chances of winning...
*applies for job as bike courier*
Quote
And I know of at least two this year, though I can't remember the names. One as their only income, the other as a part time job to fund their cycling.
I don't think cost is a barrier if you live in the West and are employed, in any job, you'd just have to want it enough. If money really is that tight, a couple of hours deliveroo three or four nights a week or some other part time work would easily fund it.
To an extent I agree, but you have to be careful how you state it. It's very easy to fall into the trap of poor people are poor because they just don't want to not be poor hard enough.
If you are single, and make the TCR your sole goal, foresaking everything else, then income should not be a major hurdle. You can even combine some training with earning money (see deliveroo et al).
I think what urked me the most was that you only find out about the £25 when you start applying. If you've carefully budgetted that you need x by January for the first payment, and y by April for the second. Knowing about it a couple of weeks ago you could have done 3 hours over time to make sure you had it.
I think it should have been £25 to submit, not to start the process. In 2018 I started to apply, but then chickened out and did RatN instead. But by being able to look at the form, and know the sort of things that are asked, it allayed a lot of my concerns ready for when I applied for real in 2019. Looking at the form doesn't cost race control anything, it isn't until you hit submit that you commit to anything or tie up any meaningful resource.
I can see why they did it, I just think advanced notice, and moving they payment to the submit button, rather than the begin button, would have been better. But then if we want to play their game, we play by their rules, they own the ball afterall.
The problem with the £25 isn't the affordibility per se, it's who it puts off. IIRC there've been studies of job applicants where the more hoops you make people jump through, the more likely you are to end up with nothing but overconfident upper/middle class white men, independent of actual ability to do the job.
Yes, there is that. As someone who speaks at conferences about how to increase diversity in the tech industry, this is the sort of thing that comes up a lot.
J
Post by: bludger on 26 November, 2019, 12:30:36 pm
The problem with the £25 isn't the affordibility per se, it's who it puts off. IIRC there've been studies of job applicants where the more hoops you make people jump through, the more likely you are to end up with nothing but overconfident upper/middle class white men, independent of actual ability to do the job.
one hundred thousand times this.
It would have been great if some kind of money like this would be specifically waived if the applicant was of a historically under represented capacity and tbe dough ringfenced for promoting a more inclusive race. Call it the Mike Hall inclusive transcon racer fund or something.
Post by: rob on 26 November, 2019, 12:41:57 pm
Therefore I'm not applying.
Post by: zigzag on 26 November, 2019, 12:43:22 pm
IMHO, everyone who makes it to the start line is racing. They may not be racing each other, they may be racing the weather, or the route, or their own inner demons. But every one of them is racing.
well, seeing people on the road and at controls i'd say 50/50 racing/touring. the thing is it is difficult for others to see if people are pushing or taking it easy (or somewhere in between), so it's down to every person's perceived effort, which is fine.
the idea of achievement by just getting to the start line - well, someone* could just turn up to the start without any preparation whatsoever (with increased probability of scratching), say, this weekend. it is only an achievement if someone has put a lot of effort and work into preparation - which i hope most people do in order to ride the best they can, along the lines of this guy (https://mediumthrills.wordpress.com/2019/11/24/fancy-a-bike-ride/?fbclid=IwAR0TVg81e6ECc5nQ61UBFp_23IoWmnSiuVWmxZ4XjtiMECO-tmKPUVUQaEA).
* someone who knows what to take with them, how to fix the bike, how to navigate, is in good enough shape etc.
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 November, 2019, 01:33:38 pm
"If you are cash poor but time rich you can do the race cheaply", that suggests quite a few things, not just riding there, and none of them will make you faster.
1) Riding there. Not the best preparation for a race, especially if you're bivvying. Still quite expensive unless you take cooking kit, in which case what do you intend to do with your extra kit before the start? Remember, it's a linear race.
2) Bivvying during a race. I'll defer to people like Zigzag, but the hotel approach has won it enough that it seems pretty certain to be faster. Right?
3) Cooking for yourself. If you're taking extra kit to cook rather than buying prepared food, you're not really racing at all are you? You're touring.
Riding there depends where from, eg plenty of people rode to Geraardsbergen from London, over a couple of days.
While Kristoff and James hotelled, I believe that Josh Ibbett mostly bivvied when he won and Fiona did approx 50:50. Mike bivvied a lot on his events and, in the remoter races, bivvying is a necessity. I think the essence of Kristoff and James' approach is being organised and having a timetable more than it is about hotels. I think Mike was less timetabled (although I've never checked the IndyPac tracker to see if that is actually true), but that worked for him.
Cooking when alternatives are availalbe is not racing.
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 November, 2019, 01:40:42 pm
my view is that even if using hotels is faster (if well planned) the difference of saving few hours for someone mid-pack would be neither here nor there, e.g. finishing 67 vs 76 - who cares.. for most people the aim is to finish before the race is over, to arrive in one piece, to give their best shot.
I'm afraid I care! I raced hard when I did it, even though it was for 31st place! I recall Mike writing something about the race for [32nd] place being as important to those involved as the race for first.
^ But I agree with your other post - I see a good proportion of riders who are taking it a little bit easy, chilling out in cafes and riding fast but short days. These guys typically overtake me at least once a day!
^My approach for IndyPac, after winter when I had hardly ridden let alone trained, was just to turn up and see how it went. I still raced just as hard, just I was a couple of km/h or so slower than I could have been if I was in shape. I wasn't taking anyone's place. But for TCR, in summer, oversubscribed, I couldn't imagine not trying to get in the best shape I could.
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 November, 2019, 01:51:35 pm
I'm not saying you have to earn 6 figures to do TCR, but I don't think you can do it if you clock shifts at Deliveroo either. Money is an entry barrier.TCR6 fastest female Ede Harrison, is/was a deliveroo rider, or it might have been Just Eat.
https://advntr.cc/ede-harrison-transconrace/
And I know of at least two this year, though I can't remember the names. One as their only income, the other as a part time job to fund their cycling.
I don't think cost is a barrier if you live in the West and are employed, in any job, you'd just have to want it enough. If money really is that tight, a couple of hours deliveroo three or four nights a week or some other part time work would easily fund it.
Essentially, if you are wealthy enough to take a holiday abroad - which not everyone is - TCR is not an expensive holiday.
Lots of ultra-riders work as bike couriers which, nowadays, mainly means Deliveroo and similar. Steve Abraham is one example, but others I know off the top of my head include Stephane Ouaja and Kai Edel, who have both finished at the sharp end of TCR / TABR / IndyPac and Thomas Jacquelinet, who won TPR. Women include Franziske Kuhne, Lulu Drinkwater and of course, Emily Chappell - although she has now moved on.
Post by: Karla on 26 November, 2019, 02:04:14 pm
"If you are cash poor but time rich you can do the race cheaply", that suggests quite a few things, not just riding there, and none of them will make you faster.
1) Riding there. Not the best preparation for a race, especially if you're bivvying. Still quite expensive unless you take cooking kit, in which case what do you intend to do with your extra kit before the start? Remember, it's a linear race.
2) Bivvying during a race. I'll defer to people like Zigzag, but the hotel approach has won it enough that it seems pretty certain to be faster. Right?
3) Cooking for yourself. If you're taking extra kit to cook rather than buying prepared food, you're not really racing at all are you? You're touring.
Congratulations on getting 31st place, rather than 35th or whatever you'd have got had you not raced so hard!
Riding there depends where from, eg plenty of people rode to Geraardsbergen from London, over a couple of days.
While Kristoff and James hotelled, I believe that Josh Ibbett mostly bivvied when he won and Fiona did approx 50:50. Mike bivvied a lot on his events and, in the remoter races, bivvying is a necessity. I think the essence of Kristoff and James' approach is being organised and having a timetable more than it is about hotels. I think Mike was less timetabled (although I've never checked the IndyPac tracker to see if that is actually true), but that worked for him.
Cooking when alternatives are availalbe is not racing.
Riding there: London to Gerardsburgen, sure, but it's a lot further for most people. For anyone who is far enough away for riding to save much cost, it will also (especially if bivvying) impact race prep.
Cooking: yes. QG's comment about the SRMR is just silly, it's a completely different situation - and yes I've ridden in all the countries used by both races.
Accommodation is kinda the same: sure you'll need to bivi in remoter areas but if you're planning to bivi the whole time to save money, you're optimising for cost not for speed. The race is now oversubscribed enough that I think anyone entering - particularly anyone entering with the privilege of being in one of the protected categories - who isn't absolutely optimising for speed, needs to take a very stern look at themselves.
Post by: morbihan on 26 November, 2019, 02:13:30 pm
my view is that even if using hotels is faster (if well planned) the difference of saving few hours for someone mid-pack would be neither here nor there, e.g. finishing 67 vs 76 - who cares.. for most people the aim is to finish before the race is over, to arrive in one piece, to give their best shot.
I'm afraid I care! I raced hard when I did it, even though it was for 31st place! I recall Mike writing something about the race for [32nd] place being as important to those involved as the race for first.
^ But I agree with your other post - I see a good proportion of riders who are taking it a little bit easy, chilling out in cafes and riding fast but short days. These guys typically overtake me at least once a day!
^My approach for IndyPac, after winter when I had hardly ridden let alone trained, was just to turn up and see how it went. I still raced just as hard, just I was a couple of km/h or so slower than I could have been if I was in shape. I wasn't taking anyone's place. But for TCR, in summer, oversubscribed, I couldn't imagine not trying to get in the best shape I could.
Got to chirp in here too ZigZag. Disagree. Just as in, say a marathon, you end up being super competitive with the racers around you. Think of the four hour finishers pulling hamstrings as they try to outspent each other over the line. The ones already up the road and over the hill are in a different race.
TCR Example. Last year there was a small group of us bringing up the rear who ended up in the CP hotel at Bjelasnica a day after the cutoff. Heading up the climb in the morning I was delighted to see lights behind me, but then pissed to see one rider already on his way down. He instantly became my rabbit to chase to Meteora.
Of course that all went tits up an hour later when I took an unplanned detour into the karstik badlands below the mountain for a day. I was pissed to be lost, but because I'd let him go too.
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 November, 2019, 02:19:21 pm
Congratulations on getting 31st place, rather than 35th or whatever you'd have got had you not raced so hard!
Thanks. If I'd taken it as easy as some I reckon I could have easily come in 50th or 60th. But being paced up that hill in Montenegro helped!
Post by: Karla on 26 November, 2019, 02:24:09 pm
Post by: zigzag on 26 November, 2019, 02:32:23 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 November, 2019, 04:57:07 pm
QG: No the person with a tent wasn't racing. I don't think the event was oversubscribed? If it was, s/he shouldn't have been there.
But he was faster than me, had he finished he would have done so at least a day ahead of me. I was racing Shiela and Aujke. Why wasn't he?
Quote
Accommodation is kinda the same: sure you'll need to bivi in remoter areas but if you're planning to bivi the whole time to save money, you're optimising for cost not for speed. The race is now oversubscribed enough that I think anyone entering - particularly anyone entering with the privilege of being in one of the protected categories - who isn't absolutely optimising for speed, needs to take a very stern look at themselves.
So because I have no chance of challenging for the top 10, even tho I will be going as fast as I can possibly go, you suggest I shouldn't even be entering?
J
Post by: bludger on 26 November, 2019, 05:02:49 pm
Make sure you wear skinsuits and TT helmets to make the criteria, everyone! And don't forget to shave your legs!
Though saying that, I have been eyeing up one of these.... https://ridefar.info/2016/12/the-most-comfortable-cycling-clothing-one-piece-outfits/#Louis_Garneau_Course_Skin_Suit
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 November, 2019, 05:18:50 pm
Well that's an interesting one.
This just went past on twitter:
https://twitter.com/DeGendtThomas/status/1199370949885337606
I have mixed feelings on this one if it happens. On the one hand, holy fuck I get to race against a pro tour rider (sure I'm gonna lose, but still). On the other hand, no fair! you can go ride the tour/giro/vuelta, which I can't.
Should you be allowed to race an amateur event with such limited capacity, if you have a pro tour license?
Something I love about ultraracing is that it is so accessible. All the training in the world will never let me ride the Giro, but I lined up in Amerongen, next to a 24hr TT world champion, a 24hr tt world + national champion, and a Transam winner. In Burgas the night before the race one of my cycling heros sat with me, gave me some advice, and we had a nice chat about the race ahead. We lined up the next morning before they disappeared up the road. They gave me their number if I want to ask them for advice. But I'm too scared to text them.
I'll never win. But I'll give it my best shot.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 November, 2019, 05:27:16 pm
Presumably the rider who came twelfth riding fixed gear in 2017 (iirc) isn't the real deal either ;D ::-)
Make sure you wear skinsuits and TT helmets to make the criteria, everyone! And don't forget to shave your legs!
Though saying that, I have been eyeing up one of these.... https://ridefar.info/2016/12/the-most-comfortable-cycling-clothing-one-piece-outfits/#Louis_Garneau_Course_Skin_Suit
I agree, it's not a sensible course to ride on fixed so.
Some people do wear skin suits - it comes down to a trade off of aero vs comfort and also pockets. Aero helmets are not much used because of ventilation: they wouldn't work for long days in the heat.
I used wheel covers for IndyPac.
Most legs are shaved, at the start, at least.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 November, 2019, 05:29:13 pm
I agree, it's not a sensible course to ride on fixed so.
Some people do wear skin suits - it comes down to a trade off of aero vs comfort and also pockets. Aero helmets are not much used because of ventilation: they wouldn't work for long days in the heat.
Everyone looked at a guy weirdly for lining up in Amerongen in a skin suit. 97 hours later when he crossed the finish line in first, we didn't think it as crazy...
Quote
I used wheel covers for IndyPac.
Most legs are shaved, at the start, at least.
I had a razor with me on the tcr this year. Not intentionally, I hadn't realised it was still in the bottom of my frame bag.
J
Post by: S2L on 26 November, 2019, 05:31:45 pm
Post by: zigzag on 26 November, 2019, 05:48:57 pm
most people think that they try their hardest, but in reality they don't (myself included). tired body and brain looks for any excuse to stop and not ride. therefore the 11th ice cream stop that day, full night's sleep where five hours would do, postings on social media etc. and that's fair enough, we are not robots.
on the final night it was around 100km left to go and i was knackered, but could have continued and be done with it. instead, i took five hour sleep stop in order to finish in daylight feeling like a human rather than a zombie. did i give my best shot? more like "good enough" shot and was content with my decisions.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 26 November, 2019, 06:42:25 pm
Post by: bludger on 26 November, 2019, 06:51:52 pm
I really hope he enters and does a ludicrous solo breakaway from the start line ;D
Well that's an interesting one.
This just went past on twitter:
https://twitter.com/DeGendtThomas/status/1199370949885337606
I have mixed feelings on this one if it happens. On the one hand, holy fuck I get to race against a pro tour rider (sure I'm gonna lose, but still). On the other hand, no fair! you can go ride the tour/giro/vuelta, which I can't.
Should you be allowed to race an amateur event with such limited capacity, if you have a pro tour license?
Something I love about ultraracing is that it is so accessible. All the training in the world will never let me ride the Giro, but I lined up in Amerongen, next to a 24hr TT world champion, a 24hr tt world + national champion, and a Transam winner. In Burgas the night before the race one of my cycling heros sat with me, gave me some advice, and we had a nice chat about the race ahead. We lined up the next morning before they disappeared up the road. They gave me their number if I want to ask them for advice. But I'm too scared to text them.
I'll never win. But I'll give it my best shot.
J
Post by: Karla on 26 November, 2019, 06:54:58 pm
QG: No the person with a tent wasn't racing. I don't think the event was oversubscribed? If it was, s/he shouldn't have been there.
But he was faster than me, had he finished he would have done so at least a day ahead of me. I was racing Shiela and Aujke. Why wasn't he?
He wasn't racing because he was a) carrying a tent, b) carrying a stove and c) cooking his own porridge every morning. Those are all deliberate choices that will make you slower. If you start an event with the preconceived intention of doing a slower time than you could do, in order to save the price of a few gas station breakfasts, you're not racing you're taking the piss.
But you knew that already.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 November, 2019, 07:00:35 pm
He wasn't racing because he was a) carrying a tent, b) carrying a stove and c) cooking his own porridge every morning. Those are all deliberate choices that will make you slower. If you start an event with the preconceived intention of doing a slower time than you could do, in order to save the price of a few gas station breakfasts, you're not racing you're taking the piss.
But you knew that already.
Actually, he got a better nights sleep than I did when I got hyperthermia. He was able to produce hot food on demand when it was bloody cold and bleak. There were stretches where availability of food was a problem, hundreds of kilometres infact where nothing was available. The strategy of having some food available, and because of the flatness the weight penalty isn't a major issue. I'd say it's actually a strategy that deserves some consideration in the midfield.
Had I not caught the last orders at a restaurant in Lauwersoog, I would have been totally fucked. Another 20 minutes and I wouldn't have made it. He on the other hand could setup a tent, make a big pot of porridge, and warm up. Me? I had my feet wrapped in tin foil, and lost an hour hugging a radiator...
J
Post by: Karla on 26 November, 2019, 07:28:47 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 November, 2019, 08:44:42 pm
Yebbut you're not out to get a good night's sleep, you're out to win. If you can't get to the next warm bed, you need to ride until you can. This is the Netherlands, not Kyrgyzstan. I'm pretty sure I know which rider you're talking about and he's raced at a high level in the past and more than deserves a cuppa when he wants one. Stopping for a brew when you're feeling a bit cold ain't racing though, and you're doing violence to language if you suggest it is.
That is a mistake many riders made, massively underestimating what it means to ride here when the weather is against you. I got frost injuries to my toes from the cold, as well as suffering from hypothermia at one stage. But hey, it's the Netherlands, how hard can it be...
Never been accused of doing violence to language. Nice turn of phrase.
J
Post by: bludger on 26 November, 2019, 08:51:08 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 November, 2019, 08:59:32 pm
The hardest ride of my life was in Belgium. I was almost in big trouble. As in, on the verge of emptying out train station refuse sacks to use as a bivvy bag, and looking for combustible wood on the roadside to start a fire with. Having to ride the bike to try to stay warm, all while on the verge of nodding off at the handlebars. It's a fool who underestimates the low countries, which is exactly what I did, and it nearly went badly wrong.
Yeah, I got the frost injuries from that one. Last December I crashed 3 times in the final 50km of a 200k audax, due to ice.
It's not so much that the conditions are worse than the uk at the same latitude, but that resources are sparse (my nearest station to bail out at was basically next to the arrivé). On RatN once you Turn left at the google datacentre, until you get to Harlingen, there is very very little by way of bars, restaurants, cafes. Not to mention the opening hours are somewhat provincial.
What I think exacerbates it is that people think of it as "just a ride in the Netherlands", and so don't make the same prep as they do for ride in other places, and people wonder why I have so much junk on my bike...
J
Post by: S2L on 26 November, 2019, 09:02:42 pm
Post by: bludger on 26 November, 2019, 09:02:55 pm
But then maybe if I'd had it, I'd not have finished the ride.
This is a weird sport.
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 November, 2019, 10:24:38 pm
re: giving the best shot.
most people think that they try their hardest, but in reality they don't (myself included). tired body and brain looks for any excuse to stop and not ride. therefore the 11th ice cream stop that day, full night's sleep where five hours would do, postings on social media etc. and that's fair enough, we are not robots.
on the final night it was around 100km left to go and i was knackered, but could have continued and be done with it. instead, i took five hour sleep stop in order to finish in daylight feeling like a human rather than a zombie. did i give my best shot? more like "good enough" shot and was content with my decisions.
I tipped you as a podium contender before the race so, yes, I agree, it wasn't quite your best shot. Not at the same level as your pbp rides!
I realise I take it more seriously than most others I meet. I don't stop at restaurants, don't do social media, don't do photos and, the only time I've finished an ultra, I only had one hour's sleep on each of the last two nights. Partly its coming from a time trialling background which gets me into the mindset of keeping pushing. But I'd really, really hate to get to the end and think I could have done it quicker.
Post by: zigzag on 26 November, 2019, 10:55:17 pm
* one common thing with all excuses is that no one believes them
Post by: perpetual dan on 27 November, 2019, 02:08:07 pm
If you're being passed by the same person every day then your strategies seem about equal to me. This year's win showed that there's alternative approaches to maximum exhaustion each day. Area under the curve wins.
Emily Chappel made an interesting comment about the difference between TCR and RAAM. Part of that was that being able to judge the difference between necessary rest of mind and body, and taking it easy is part of the race in TCR. In RAAM there's a team telling you what to do.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Post by: S2L on 27 November, 2019, 04:31:38 pm
Area under the curve wins.
Wow, the most interesting metaphors in this thread... first frostbite as a proof of how hard it can be to ride a bicycle in Europe (in summer???), now mathematical integration as a strategy to win a race...
Possibly the Newton-Leibniz classic? :thumbsup:
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 November, 2019, 05:11:09 pm
Post by: perpetual dan on 27 November, 2019, 05:16:31 pm
Possibly the Newton-Leibniz classic?
:D
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Post by: mattc on 27 November, 2019, 08:15:28 pm
+1The problem with the £25 isn't the affordibility per se, it's who it puts off. IIRC there've been studies of job applicants where the more hoops you make people jump through, the more likely you are to end up with nothing but overconfident upper/middle class white men, independent of actual ability to do the job.
one hundred thousand times this.
(that's just ONE, not 100,000 ;) )
I haven't checked all the small-print yet, but it feels like they've got this wrong for TCR8. If it was a fiver to get your place, fair enough; that's close to the amount it "costs" them to process your application. But £25? Just to enter a lottery?? I suspect this would have put me off TPR.
I think a time-consuming entry process is far better for deterring tyre-kickers; if you look at LEL2013, there was a frenzy to CLICK THAT BUTTON at some crazy time, months in advance. Then on start day, dozens of riders DNSed without even bothering to claim the refund (£50? £100? dunno, do your own research!)
That sounds like a time-poor cash-rich thing to me, plain as day ...
Post by: mattc on 27 November, 2019, 08:37:35 pm
So are you saying that any compromise on spending means you're not really racing?QuoteThing is, if you are cash poor, but time rich, you can do the race really cheaply.Yebbut then you're not racing, and shouldn't really enter.
That doesn't make sense - have you spent every spare penny on your "racing" this year??
Post by: Karla on 28 November, 2019, 12:01:19 am
Post by: bludger on 28 November, 2019, 12:13:08 am
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 November, 2019, 01:19:35 am
I'm going to be keeping a beady eye out for when the spots for volunteering will open. I'd hope to get the Belgium spot but would settle for Brest. Maybe Austria, though cycling London to there would be a bit of work.
If you're a volunteer, and not racing, ask a rider for their route from CP1 to CP2. It'll probably be pretty optimised. So you'd have no problems riding it, esp as you can do shorter days.
That said Austrian trains are pretty cheap, follow the Rhine as far as lake constance, then head up to Feldkirk and a train through the lumpiest bits.
J
Post by: S2L on 28 November, 2019, 07:39:26 am
So are you saying that any compromise on spending means you're not really racing?QuoteThing is, if you are cash poor, but time rich, you can do the race really cheaply.Yebbut then you're not racing, and shouldn't really enter.
Pretty much... a race is a race and one should aim at beating as many opponents as possible withing physical limitations. Sleeping in a ditch makes sense if it saves time, just like cooking. If it wastes time, then it's glorified touring
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 28 November, 2019, 09:26:42 am
it's glorified touring
That's certainly true of Audax. When I filmed some of the LEJOG record last year I covered some of the aspects which elevated the feat above 'touring'. Anyone can ride LEJOG, and there have been 'unsupported' record attempts. The glory-making aspects of the RRA LEJOG record are readily apparent, largely the validation by almost continuous observation. That makes it credible, but expensive. The history contributes to the status, and provides a rich background for stories. It was a story before the internet, and continues to be a fixture of 'legacy' publications.
TCR is an inevitable development. A core of 'stars' to provide enough mass of interest for the other participants' social media to orbit around. The MSM like women to focus on, so Fiona's success has generated a need to control the entry process. It's interesting to see how that process went wrong at PBP, with a big question mark over the validity of the ride of the first woman back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8TCfnE8Zv0
Post by: S2L on 28 November, 2019, 09:42:33 am
it's glorified touring
That's certainly true of Audax. When I filmed some of the LEJOG record last year I covered some of the aspects which elevated the feat above 'touring'. Anyone can ride LEJOG, and there have been 'unsupported' record attempts. The glory-making aspects of the RRA LEJOG record are readily apparent, largely the validation by almost continuous observation. That makes it credible, but expensive. The history contributes to the status, and provides a rich background for stories. It was a story before the internet, and continues to be a fixture of 'legacy' publications.
TCR is an inevitable development. A core of 'stars' to provide enough mass of interest for the other participants' social media to orbit around. The MSM like women to focus on, so Fiona's success has generated a need to control the entry process. It's interesting to see how that process went wrong at PBP, with a big question mark over the validity of the ride of the first woman back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8TCfnE8Zv0
I don't think LeJoG record is a relevant example, because it is a race against the clock.. "contre la montre"... it's a time trial!
TCR is not a time trial, it is a race against opponents. I appreciate people aim at doing it in less than 14 days or whatever, but ultimately in a race, being 17th or 21th does make a difference, whereas finishing in 13 days or 14 doesn't.
Nobody looks at how long it took the winner do finish the Tour de France, but we all look at the final classification... TCR is no different. It's not a time trial, it's a race... very different thing.
If folks don't get that point, then they don't get the spirit of the event.
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 28 November, 2019, 09:51:27 am
I don't think LeJoG record is a relevant example, because it is a race against the clock.. "contre la montre"... it's a time trial!
TCR is not a time trial, it is a race against opponents. I appreciate people aim at doing it in less than 14 days or whatever, but ultimately in a race, being 17th or 21th does make a difference, whereas finishing in 13 days or 14 doesn't.
Nobody looks at how long it took the winner do finish the Tour de France, but we all look at the final classification... TCR is no different. It's not a time trial, it's a race... very different thing.
If folks don't get that point, then they don't get the spirit of the event.
Any event which forbids 'drafting' is a time trial. I'm more interested in the systems of glorification.
Post by: S2L on 28 November, 2019, 10:23:42 am
Any event which forbids 'drafting' is a time trial. I'm more interested in the systems of glorification.
But it's not about the time, just like nobody should care about the time of the winner in a time trial... the win matters. Time is a reflection of course and weather conditions, per se it is a meaningless number.
Post by: Frank9755 on 28 November, 2019, 10:29:44 am
Time trials are non-drafting races against opponents doing the same course which, for TCR as RRA LEJoG, is defined by a few points rather than a set course.
People who are interested in it and know a bit about it often ask 'how long did it take you?'
The difference between TCR and RRA record attempts is support.
Post by: bludger on 28 November, 2019, 10:40:23 am
https://ridefar.info/races/transcontinental-race/tcr-no8/
It'll probably be kept up to date with new info.
Quote
The finish party has been announced as Saturday evening, August 8th, which is the end of Day 15. It will therefore probably be an even bigger challenge for people to arrive before the finish party this year than it was in previous years.
I think this is a good way to give a 'soft steer' to make it clear that this is a race.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 28 November, 2019, 10:42:00 am
Any event which forbids 'drafting' is a time trial. I'm more interested in the systems of glorification.
But it's not about the time, just like nobody should care about the time of the winner in a time trial... the win matters. Time is a reflection of course and weather conditions, per se it is a meaningless number.
It doesn't actually matter how much a record is beaten by, only that it is beaten. Whether the record to be beaten was set a minute earlier, a year earlier or a decade earlier isn't particularly important either.
Post by: Frank9755 on 28 November, 2019, 10:47:09 am
Long distance race site Ridefar.info has published an article giving an overview of the new race.
https://ridefar.info/races/transcontinental-race/tcr-no8/
It'll probably be kept up to date with new info.QuoteThe finish party has been announced as Saturday evening, August 8th, which is the end of Day 15. It will therefore probably be an even bigger challenge for people to arrive before the finish party this year than it was in previous years.
I think this is a good way to give a 'soft steer' to make it clear that this is a race.
Chris White, the author, is planning to ride again in 2020. He ran a control last time so he should be guaranteed a place.
I agree with his comments on length. I did a rough sketch, and it is certainly long, and it looks like it will have significantly more climbing than this year's event.
Post by: S2L on 28 November, 2019, 10:54:43 am
Then it's not a race... a race by definition implies beating the opposition, regardless of the time. Time is completely irrelevant, especially when the course changes every year.
Drafting or non drafting are simply rules of the race, but a race nonetheless
Post by: zigzag on 28 November, 2019, 11:09:22 am
So you are saying it's about finishing fast rather than finishing first?
Then it's not a race... a race by definition implies beating the opposition, regardless of the time. Time is completely irrelevant, especially when the course changes every year.
Drafting or non drafting are simply rules of the race, but a race nonetheless
it's a race in time trial format. if you ride fast you will finish accordingly (in the best position that reflects your fitness and faff and sleep optimisation) somewhere on (or out of) the gc list. if you time trial better (i.e. faster, longer, or both) than the rest of the field and long enough and use your time efficiently you'll be the first to finish automatically. race is a description that everyone understands, time trial usually requires further explanation and sounds less intriguing/appealing.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 November, 2019, 11:18:55 am
Long distance race site Ridefar.info has published an article giving an overview of the new race.
https://ridefar.info/races/transcontinental-race/tcr-no8/
It'll probably be kept up to date with new info.QuoteThe finish party has been announced as Saturday evening, August 8th, which is the end of Day 15. It will therefore probably be an even bigger challenge for people to arrive before the finish party this year than it was in previous years.
I think this is a good way to give a 'soft steer' to make it clear that this is a race.
Longer, and with more climbing than no7, and yet with slightly less time before the cut off. Looking at the numbers the climbing is heavily loaded into the CP2 -> CP4 leg nearly 17000m of climbing in about 1300km (excluding the parcour). Around CP3, there's very little alternative routes available it's a sort of one road in one road out type of thing.
I'm trying to work out if I can get CP1 -> CP2 to under 10000m of climbing without making it longer than the current 1280km. I know climbing is my weakness, so for me a little extra distance to avoid climbing is worth it for me.
The 1600m from the valley floor up to the start of the Cp4 parcour is quite a chunk of climbing, but the first 200km after CP3 looks scary in terms of climb.
J
Post by: grams on 28 November, 2019, 12:06:30 pm
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 28 November, 2019, 12:16:15 pm
Post by: rob on 28 November, 2019, 12:25:13 pm
It is an advantage to start a time trial behind your competitor, so that you have a ‘rabbit’ to chase. It is commonplace to monitor your performance relative to your main competitors during a time trial.
My supporters had a copy of my schedule along with keeping an eye on where some other key riders were.
Post by: Exit Stage Left on 28 November, 2019, 12:28:48 pm
Post by: zigzag on 28 November, 2019, 12:56:42 pm
<...>
I know climbing is my weakness, so for me a little extra distance to avoid climbing is worth it for me.
The 1600m from the valley floor up to the start of the Cp4 parcour is quite a chunk of climbing, but the first 200km after CP3 looks scary in terms of climb.
J
good news is that there is plenty of time to make climbing your strength. bad news is that nothing worthwhile comes easy.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 November, 2019, 12:59:33 pm
good news is that there is plenty of time to make climbing your strength. bad news is that nothing worthwhile comes easy.
I'm hoping the new job will help. If you have any tips of how to train for climbing when you live in a flat country, please let me know.
J
Post by: bludger on 28 November, 2019, 01:07:58 pm
(http://www.stickybottle.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Unusual1.jpg)
Post by: morbihan on 28 November, 2019, 01:13:53 pm
Smash your legs up in the gym (loads of squats etc) then go out and ride in a bigger gear than you would normally use into the wind with ballast on the bike.
good news is that there is plenty of time to make climbing your strength. bad news is that nothing worthwhile comes easy.
I'm hoping the new job will help. If you have any tips of how to train for climbing when you live in a flat country, please let me know.
J
Post by: morbihan on 28 November, 2019, 01:16:24 pm
<...>
I know climbing is my weakness, so for me a little extra distance to avoid climbing is worth it for me.
The 1600m from the valley floor up to the start of the Cp4 parcour is quite a chunk of climbing, but the first 200km after CP3 looks scary in terms of climb.
J
good news is that there is plenty of time to make climbing your strength. bad news is that nothing worthwhile comes easy.
Also time to take a good hard look at your current gear ratios.
Post by: Frank9755 on 28 November, 2019, 01:21:29 pm
Post by: zigzag on 28 November, 2019, 01:34:08 pm
good news is that there is plenty of time to make climbing your strength. bad news is that nothing worthwhile comes easy.
I'm hoping the new job will help. If you have any tips of how to train for climbing when you live in a flat country, please let me know.
J
ok, my 2p.
following a structured plan on an indoor trainer would be the optimal solution. failing that, hill repeats twice a week, every week; if there are no hills within rideable distance, it's worth taking a train/driving. first month 1 hour long sessions, second month 1.5h, third and following months 2h. another alternative is doing hilly rides, if traveling is possible. ride up the hills hard and take it easy everywhere else. on flat terrain - high intensity intervals, say, reaching ~170bpm and keeping that intensity for as long as you can. few minutes easy pedaling and repeat again x 6...8. this would be my idea for hill training in addition to general cycling and one longer/easier ride per week.
recovery is equally (if not more) important, i.e. good nutrition, quality sleep, low physical and mental stress.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 November, 2019, 01:45:55 pm
Also time to take a good hard look at your current gear ratios.
I have an 11-40 cassette, and a 38/28 chainset. Do you think I should go lower?
J
Post by: morbihan on 28 November, 2019, 02:19:21 pm
Also time to take a good hard look at your current gear ratios.
I have an 11-40 cassette, and a 38/28 chainset. Do you think I should go lower?
J
I'm not qualified to say Im afraid QG. Im sure there are other members with lots more insight than me. Suffice to say that personally last year I had 1:1 ratio (34/34) and struggled with the ramps, admittedly with a recent fracture. It just wasn't enough and clipping in on a ramp was nigh on impossible. I'm not getting any younger and will be downsizing on an upcoming build for touring and future races. I've selected 42/26 crankset with an 11/36 cassette and am exploring riding with flat pedals. If I struggle with that set up then its time for an e bike.
There are a few charts out there that illustrate how much power you need to ride up what gradient in a specific gear, maybe worth a look.
Looks like you are geared pretty super low already mind you. I guess if you were running out of gears and weren't spinning out on the flats then it docent hurt to go even lower.
Post by: S2L on 28 November, 2019, 04:19:40 pm
1) Lose as much weight as it's sensible... it can be a pound, a stone or 5. I expect anyone wanting to "race" would want to be in a normal BMI range at the very least.
2) Work on your aerobic power output... aim for something around (or in excess of) 3 Watt/Kg.. something you can sustain for an hour
3) Look at gear ratios of less than 1:1 for steep gradients
In this order... starting from the gears is a defeating attitude
Everybody who struggle with their climbing (unless they have knee or back issues) are let down by 1), 2) or 3) ... or a combination of them
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 November, 2019, 04:54:51 pm
The recipe for rides with a significant altitude profile is fairly simple...
1) Lose as much weight as it's sensible... it can be a pound, a stone or 5. I expect anyone wanting to "race" would want to be in a normal BMI range at the very least.
Working on it, but it's hard as a side effect of the medication I have to take to not die is weight gain.
Quote
2) Work on your aerobic power output... aim for something around (or in excess of) 3 Watt/Kg.. something you can sustain for an hour
As discussed at length in a previous thread, it seems to be a general consensus that 3W/kg is just not realistic
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=108743
Tho Frank suggests that climbing some mountains at 130w is plausible. Being able to do that on day 1 is one thing, doing it on day 10 is another.
Quote
3) Look at gear ratios of less than 1:1 for steep gradients
In this order... starting from the gears is a defeating attitude
No it's not. Your bike needs gears to be able to be ridden, otherwise it's a balance bike. Therefore I may as well install gears appropriate to the target use, else it's just wasting money.
Just once, I'd like you to say something positive and nice in reply to one of my posts...
J
Post by: S2L on 28 November, 2019, 05:13:25 pm
Just once, I'd like you to say something positive and nice in reply to one of my posts...
J
Primarily, I am trying to say something true. If you prefer to hear that you can climb anything with 1.5 Watt/Kg as long as the gears are low enough, then I can say that, but I don't mean it.
When the power is too low, the speed is also too low and you simply can't stand upright... so you go down or you gracefully climb down and walk.
Cycling at 3 km/h uphill is not easy... balance becomes an issue
On a moderately loaded bike you will need 3.5 Watt/kg to travel at 8 km/h on a 10% incline... if you have 1.75 Watt/kg then you will only travel at about 4 km/h, dangerously close to falling off. Anything beyond 10% will realistically mean walking
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 November, 2019, 05:20:53 pm
Primarily, I am trying to say something true. If you prefer to hear that you can climb anything with 1.5 Watt/Kg as long as the gears are low enough, then I can say that, but I don't mean it.
When the power is too low, the speed is also too low and you simply can't stand upright... so you go down or you gracefully climb down and walk.
Cycling at less than 3 km/h uphill is not easy... balance becomes an issue
It was more the starting from a point of gears comment that annoyed me.
J
Post by: S2L on 28 November, 2019, 05:23:40 pm
It was more the starting from a point of gears comment that annoyed me.
J
... because gears can only help so much and don't address the real problem. You need a trike if you want to cycle uphill really slow with very small gears... with two wheels gears don't help much
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 November, 2019, 05:29:22 pm
... because gears can only help so much and don't address the real problem. You need a trike if you want to cycle uphill really slow with very small gears... with two wheels gears don't help much
But they are still something that can be really easily changed. There's no point running a 53/39 and an 11-28 cassette, when you're installing new gears anyway, it's a simple move to put in something low. To do otherwise, the inability to turn the pedals point kicks in at a much higher speed.
J
Post by: Kim on 28 November, 2019, 05:29:50 pm
So you might as well start there, on the basis that the sooner you get the bike sorted out the sooner you can train with it.
Post by: hatler on 28 November, 2019, 05:49:19 pm
Post by: S2L on 28 November, 2019, 05:53:39 pm
... because gears can only help so much and don't address the real problem. You need a trike if you want to cycle uphill really slow with very small gears... with two wheels gears don't help much
But they are still something that can be really easily changed. There's no point running a 53/39 and an 11-28 cassette, when you're installing new gears anyway, it's a simple move to put in something low. To do otherwise, the inability to turn the pedals point kicks in at a much higher speed.
J
Of course, as long as you realise that it's not with gears that you will get up the mountains. By the look of things, you have already a remarkably low gearing set up (28 x 40, if I understand correctly?)... I am surprised you can actually use it, as I think at a reasonable cadence, the speed is probably too low to be upright.
So, that leaves you with the real issue to deal with... power to weight ratio
Post by: Kim on 28 November, 2019, 05:54:08 pm
Can I just say I'm in awe of anyone who simply attempts TCR, let alone thinks they can finish it.
+1
Post by: zigzag on 28 November, 2019, 06:22:22 pm
Of course, as long as you realise that it's not with gears that you will get up the mountains. By the look of things, you have already a remarkably low gearing set up (28 x 40, if I understand correctly?)... I am surprised you can actually use it, as I think at a reasonable cadence, the speed is probably too low to be upright.
So, that leaves you with the real issue to deal with... power to weight ratio
not sure if you are aware, but many mountain bikers are using 30x50 lowest gear and stay upright just fine, even balancing wheel slip. so while 28x40 is a very low gear there's nothing to be surprised about.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 November, 2019, 06:30:20 pm
Can I just say I'm in awe of anyone who simply attempts TCR, let alone thinks they can finish it.Muchly. Even if they "do it touring".
Post by: S2L on 28 November, 2019, 06:38:34 pm
Of course, as long as you realise that it's not with gears that you will get up the mountains. By the look of things, you have already a remarkably low gearing set up (28 x 40, if I understand correctly?)... I am surprised you can actually use it, as I think at a reasonable cadence, the speed is probably too low to be upright.
So, that leaves you with the real issue to deal with... power to weight ratio
not sure if you are aware, but many mountain bikers are using 30x50 lowest gear and stay upright just fine, even balancing wheel slip. so while 28x40 is a very low gear there's nothing to be surprised about.
I had a mountain bike, in the days when 28 x 36 was the smallest gear... usable in very few instances, but possible on a bike with 2.5 inch tyres, no load and very wide flat bars... on 25 mm tyres, with a loaded bike and road bars?... not so sure
Post by: grams on 28 November, 2019, 06:45:56 pm
Anyone prescribing a specific W/kg is telling you not to bother and that only certain body types should enter, and that sucks.
The lowest gear on my touring bike is 24x36 and it’s definitely still faster and more pleasant than walking and doesn’t feel anywhere near the lowest viable gear.
That said, focusing on very steep hills is probably less important than getting up very long, less steep hills, which I think are more numerous?
Post by: mattc on 28 November, 2019, 06:48:12 pm
TCR is not a time trial, it is a race against opponents.Sounds to me like you don't understand time trials.
... TCR is no different. It's not a time trial, it's a race... very different thing.
If folks don't get that point, then they don't get the spirit of the event.
Post by: morbihan on 28 November, 2019, 07:00:22 pm
“… whatever commentary might be shared online by spectators we are really in a contract of integrity with our peers and it’s only those who have really been there who know the nuances of what is involved…”
Mike Hall 2016
QG you are a peer.
Do your thing. Train for Brest and the rest is all background noise.
Post by: Phil W on 28 November, 2019, 07:33:12 pm
Of course, as long as you realise that it's not with gears that you will get up the mountains. By the look of things, you have already a remarkably low gearing set up (28 x 40, if I understand correctly?)... I am surprised you can actually use it, as I think at a reasonable cadence, the speed is probably too low to be upright.
So, that leaves you with the real issue to deal with... power to weight ratio
not sure if you are aware, but many mountain bikers are using 30x50 lowest gear and stay upright just fine, even balancing wheel slip. so while 28x40 is a very low gear there's nothing to be surprised about.
I had a mountain bike, in the days when 28 x 36 was the smallest gear... usable in very few instances, but possible on a bike with 2.5 inch tyres, no load and very wide flat bars... on 25 mm tyres, with a loaded bike and road bars?... not so sure
Hmm, 22 X 34 is Shimano's lowest gear of mountain biking from the 9 speed era. I still have that drive train on one of my bikes. That works out at .65 comparable to 30 / 50 which is .6 and 28 / 40 which is .7. Not sure where you get 28 X 36 from as I'm sure 36 on a cassette came after 9 speed.
It's perfectly usable , was so when mtn bikes were still in the 1.75" 1.95" range of tyre width, which is 44-50mm in modern parlance. Plus it was useable technical off road uphill. If a hill was too steep you'd lift front wheel but for getting through technical uphill sections, perfect. Sure some adventure bikes used on TCR won't be so far off those widths.
Good luck QG I'd say your gearing is fine. If you have to walk you have to walk, but by that point it'll be faster than riding anyway.
Post by: orraloon on 28 November, 2019, 08:34:40 pm
Volunteering for a CP. I could not contemplate entering TCRn, too old, too much a hobby cyclist, etc. I was thinking about volunteering for a CP. But. Should I get a place on that, given that volunteering gets individuals brownie points for getting accepted onto a future race, would I be blocking an aspirational 'proper' rider?
I'd like to help and support. But I would not want to deprive someone of a chance to enter.
Or am I being too sensitive?
Post by: rob on 28 November, 2019, 08:46:53 pm
My lowest gear is 34*28. Should I be worried ?
Post by: Jurek on 28 November, 2019, 08:56:26 pm
I think it’s awesome you’re having another go.I'm struggling to argue with the first line of that post
Anyone prescribing a specific W/kg is telling you not to bother and that only certain body types should enter, and that sucks.
The lowest gear on my touring bike is 24x36 and it’s definitely still faster and more pleasant than walking and doesn’t feel anywhere near the lowest viable gear.
That said, focusing on very steep hills is probably less important than getting up very long, less steep hills, which I think are more numerous?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 November, 2019, 08:58:07 pm
Sorry, I'm going to have to duck out of this thread, I've received a PM asking me to stop.
Thanks everyone for the supportive comments, maybe see some of you on the road.
J
Post by: Paul H on 28 November, 2019, 09:03:45 pm
Tell them to sod off ::-)
Sorry, I'm going to have to duck out of this thread, I've received a PM asking me to stop.
J
Post by: Jurek on 28 November, 2019, 09:09:35 pm
My bold
Sorry, I'm going to have to duck out of this thread, I've received a PM asking me to stop.
Thanks everyone for the supportive comments, maybe see some of you on the road.
J
That'd be so cool.
Post by: bludger on 28 November, 2019, 11:35:06 pm
I’ve just bought my first geared bike in, probably, 10 years.
My lowest gear is 34*28. Should I be worried ?
My first road bike was 34*28. I never carried really big loads (aside from myself...) up big chunky steep hills on it but for general riding I think it is adequate. I don't regret having moved to 34*32 though!
Post by: Bolt on 29 November, 2019, 12:02:39 am
Good luck QG I'd say your gearing is fine. If you have to walk you have to walk, but by that point it'll be faster than riding anyway.Absolutely! and I find in those "get off and walk" situations that it's good to consider that the small amount of time walking with the bike as being extremely beneficial for the miles that lay ahead... just keep moving :thumbsup:
Post by: paddyirish on 29 November, 2019, 06:27:57 am
Sorry, I'm going to have to duck out of this thread, I've received a PM asking me to stop.
Thanks everyone for the supportive comments, maybe see some of you on the road.
J
Sorry you've been asked to butt out of the thread. I don't always agree with everything you say, but it is always interesting, polite and coming from a desire to be curious and to improve - I don't get why some people are so aggressive and dismissive.
I've not achieved anything like what you have, but it is clear to me that these events are about getting your bike, body and mind from start to the end as quickly as you can safely manage. Only you know what your limits are and only you will recognise when you are surpassing them. An awful lot of people at the top end of TCR07 and The Wild Atlantic Way, who were "racing" seemed to neglect one of the three and scratched as a result.
Post by: Frank9755 on 29 November, 2019, 06:36:49 am
As there are sufficient numbers of proper TCR riders on here, a question from a Dotwatcher.
Volunteering for a CP. I could not contemplate entering TCRn, too old, too much a hobby cyclist, etc. I was thinking about volunteering for a CP. But. Should I get a place on that, given that volunteering gets individuals brownie points for getting accepted onto a future race, would I be blocking an aspirational 'proper' rider?
I'd like to help and support. But I would not want to deprive someone of a chance to enter.
Or am I being too sensitive?
The race relies on good volunteers. If you are not taking a starting place you are not stopping anyone else from having one.
Post by: S2L on 29 November, 2019, 06:40:35 am
Sorry, I'm going to have to duck out of this thread, I've received a PM asking me to stop.
Thanks everyone for the supportive comments, maybe see some of you on the road.
J
very odd.... :o
Post by: S2L on 29 November, 2019, 06:45:50 am
Hmm, 22 X 34 is Shimano's lowest gear of mountain biking from the 9 speed era.
You might well be right... I no longer have it to check. It was a Deore LX 9 speed
Point is the granny gear was not much to go uphill, but rather to go over rocks or roots, to avoid "getting stuck" so to speak. I've never found it of any use up a long incline.
Post by: Frank9755 on 29 November, 2019, 06:46:16 am
I had a mountain bike, in the days when 28 x 36 was the smallest gear... usable in very few instances, but possible on a bike with 2.5 inch tyres, no load and very wide flat bars... on 25 mm tyres, with a loaded bike and road bars?... not so sure
If I had a pound for every time I'd heard someone who hadn't tried it assert on a forum that someone else's gearing was too low, I could probably afford a new, bigger cassette!
I mainly associate this with old buffers on the CTC forum about 10 years ago, when I was setting up my touring bike with a 19" bottom gear: 34 at the back, the biggest you could get in 9-speed at the time, and a 22 ring inner on a triple. They came from the era when such gearing was not available and lacked the imagination to believe it would work. Their mantra was generally 'I would fall off if I pedalled that slowly.'
But they wouldn't have done. I did lots of touring on it, including a trip across France with a camping load of 20kg. I generally travel lighter these days, but that bike now has a seat for my 2-year old daughter on the back and, in August I took her round the Isle of Wight - along with four (small) panniers. That bottom gear was, is and always has been perfect for a very heavy bike with road bars on steep hills at very low speed!
My TCR bike has 30/46 on the front and 11-42 on the back, which gives a similar gear. I've not had to walk on any on-road climbs with that, but I did at CP2 in Serbia. That wasn't an issue of gearing, it was that it was necessary to go faster over the loose surface than I, or any of those around me, were able able to sustain.
Post by: S2L on 29 November, 2019, 07:07:26 am
My TCR bike has 30/46 on the front and 11-42 on the back, which gives a similar gear. I've not had to walk on any on-road climbs with that, but I did at CP2 in Serbia. That wasn't an issue of gearing, it was that it was necessary to go faster over the loose surface than I, or any of those around me, were able able to sustain.
The way I see it is that gearing is the last resort, once you've done the homework you look at the gearing if needs be.
It's a bit like having hip problems that prevent you from walking properly... training is a bit like doing the physio and the exercises prescribed, getting smaller gears is a bit like buying a stick and accepting that you'll never get better
Post by: Jeff E on 29 November, 2019, 08:29:45 am
Post by: hatler on 29 November, 2019, 08:52:43 am
Post by: Frank9755 on 29 November, 2019, 08:53:18 am
Post by: DuncanM on 29 November, 2019, 09:01:09 am
Alternatively, you can view gearing as being part of the system that is going to get you to the finish as fast as possible. Would you tell a TTer who does a sub 50 25 while grinding at 70rpm that they shouldn't have such a big gear available? Or tell a CX rider that they don't need low gears because they can just run if they can't ride their current gearing?
My TCR bike has 30/46 on the front and 11-42 on the back, which gives a similar gear. I've not had to walk on any on-road climbs with that, but I did at CP2 in Serbia. That wasn't an issue of gearing, it was that it was necessary to go faster over the loose surface than I, or any of those around me, were able able to sustain.
The way I see it is that gearing is the last resort, once you've done the homework you look at the gearing if needs be.
It's a bit like having hip problems that prevent you from walking properly... training is a bit like doing the physio and the exercises prescribed, getting smaller gears is a bit like buying a stick and accepting that you'll never get better
I don't see why having low enough gears to minimise walking while on a long event would be remotely controversial.
Post by: S2L on 29 November, 2019, 09:26:51 am
I don't see why having low enough gears to minimise walking while on a long event would be remotely controversial.
Not controversial at all.
I don't think I made myself clear. Initially, I said that looking at gearing was important in an event with significant altitude difference, but not as important as losing weight and increasing power/weight ratio.
If the latter cannot be addressed or has already been addressed, then gearing is next.
IMO it's never the starting point
I can't see how racing can be separated from training to improve those numbers, the two can only work in conjunction.
Too many people train without actually racing (the Zwift syndrome) and seemingly there are a few who race without actually training.
I don't race, so I don't train... I maybe cycle 8,000 miles per year, but I don't train to get better or faster or anything. If I wanted to race, I'd probably start training
Post by: Frank9755 on 29 November, 2019, 09:36:50 am
My TCR bike has 30/46 on the front and 11-42 on the back, which gives a similar gear. I've not had to walk on any on-road climbs with that, but I did at CP2 in Serbia. That wasn't an issue of gearing, it was that it was necessary to go faster over the loose surface than I, or any of those around me, were able able to sustain.
The way I see it is that gearing is the last resort, once you've done the homework you look at the gearing if needs be.
It's a bit like having hip problems that prevent you from walking properly... training is a bit like doing the physio and the exercises prescribed, getting smaller gears is a bit like buying a stick and accepting that you'll never get better
I think you are digging yourself into a hole! Have you been reading too much of this sort of thing on the internet?
You have to have one or more gears on your bike when you go out for your next ride. Someone has to decide what that gear is or those gears are. It could be the manufacturer, the guy in the shop or the rider. Why shouldn't the rider have a say in it?
Post by: S2L on 29 November, 2019, 10:01:52 am
I think you are digging yourself into a hole! Have you been reading too much of this sort of thing on the internet?
Frank, there is no need to point fingers... it's just my experience... I started road cycling in the days of 42 x 23 as lowest gear, then it became 39 x 27, then it became 34 x 28 and then it became 36 x 34.
Have I improved my climbing ability as a result? Not an iota.
The small gear will get me out of trouble when I am really tired, so it's nice to have it, but it's not the remedy to lack of fitness. Training is the remedy
Post by: grams on 29 November, 2019, 10:24:39 am
Sorry to make this personal, but on this and other threads you've repeatedly failed to understand other humans who are different from you. Maybe step out of the thread until you do.
Post by: mattc on 29 November, 2019, 10:50:44 am
+1Good luck QG I'd say your gearing is fine. If you have to walk you have to walk, but by that point it'll be faster than riding anyway.Absolutely! and I find in those "get off and walk" situations that it's good to consider that the small amount of time walking with the bike as being extremely beneficial for the miles that lay ahead... just keep moving :thumbsup:
(Everyone's different - so clearly they have different kit and gearing needs. Seems like QG is on the right track.)
Post by: S2L on 29 November, 2019, 10:53:59 am
Sorry to make this personal, but on this and other threads you've repeatedly failed to understand other humans who are different from you. Maybe step out of the thread until you do.
I'll do just that...
Although I fail to see how my advice differs so much from Frank9755's
Quote
There's no magic, just try to improve your W/kg. On turbo, on road or both
Post by: Phil W on 29 November, 2019, 12:02:36 pm
Now it could be, that her discussions in this thread, are considered to fall outside of the self supported ethos, even before the race begins. It may be the, are you racing or not question, is considered off limits, and raised some heckles.
A bit like a defence barrister, she may have been advised to remain silent, before she incriminates herself, as in loses the chance of a place at TCR08.
Post by: Frank9755 on 29 November, 2019, 12:05:32 pm
Post by: Phil W on 29 November, 2019, 12:09:01 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 29 November, 2019, 12:09:55 pm
The only reason I can think that QG was asked to desist from this thread and complied is that the person who sent the PM is connected with the organisation of TCR08. The only message she can have been given, in order that she comply, is that her place is at risk, if she continues with some of the themes in this thread.
Now it could be, that her discussions in this thread, are considered to fall outside of the self supported ethos, even before the race begins. It may be the, are you racing or not question, is considered off limits, and raised some heckles.
A bit like a defence barrister, she may have been advised to remain silent, before she incriminates herself, as in loses the chance of a place at TCR08.
Replying to protect lostdot before this rumour gathers any hint of traction.
No, it's not from lostdot, or anyone involved in the race.
It's not from any of the forum moderators. It's a user who has objected to my contributing to this thread. I don't have the spoons for dealing with messages like that, so to reduce the chance of more people objecting, I chose to step out.
Hopefully this clarification won't trigger yet more PM's.
J
Post by: hatler on 29 November, 2019, 12:15:49 pm
Nothing like a free press.
That sounds like pretty shabby behaviour.
I think where we are interacting is commonly known as 'a forum'. The mysterious requester should perhaps remind themselves of what that word means.
Post by: DuncanM on 29 November, 2019, 02:03:36 pm
It's not from any of the forum moderators. It's a user who has objected to my contributing to this thread. I don't have the spoons for dealing with messages like that, so to reduce the chance of more people objecting, I chose to step out.I think your contributions to this thread, in keeping with your contributions elsewhere, have been entirely beneficial. I see no reason why you should not continue to post here or elsewhere, and I'm sad that you feel that you should restrict yourself in such a way. I hope you continue to post as you have been and that you get to ride TCR and do as well as you are able (whatever you gearing or equipment choices).
I don't think PMs asking anyone to keep out of a thread (with the obvious caveats) are in keeping with this forum.
Post by: morbihan on 29 November, 2019, 02:42:55 pm
Its most odd.
If you do decide to duck out I hope its not because you feel bullied into it by one bizarre individual.
Post by: Pedal Castro on 29 November, 2019, 02:45:32 pm
I’ve just bought my first geared bike in, probably, 10 years.
My lowest gear is 34*28. Should I be worried ?
My first road bike was 34*28. I never carried really big loads (aside from myself...) up big chunky steep hills on it but for general riding I think it is adequate. I don't regret having moved to 34*32 though!
I toured the Lake District with 44x28 bottom gear back in 1979, we thought it strange to see a pair of Canadians at the foot of the Struggle with 36x36!!! I stopped halfway up to take of my top layer and REALLY struggled to get going again, feet strapped in, hanging on to the dry stone wall and heave! I think it took 3 attempts...
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 29 November, 2019, 02:59:10 pm
It's not from any of the forum moderators. It's a user who has objected to my contributing to this thread. I don't have the spoons for dealing with messages like that, so to reduce the chance of more people objecting, I chose to step out.I think your contributions to this thread, in keeping with your contributions elsewhere, have been entirely beneficial. I see no reason why you should not continue to post here or elsewhere, and I'm sad that you feel that you should restrict yourself in such a way. I hope you continue to post as you have been and that you get to ride TCR and do as well as you are able (whatever you gearing or equipment choices).
I don't think PMs asking anyone to keep out of a thread (with the obvious caveats) are in keeping with this forum.
Seconded.
Post by: paddyirish on 29 November, 2019, 03:39:22 pm
Post by: hellymedic on 29 November, 2019, 04:06:50 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 29 November, 2019, 04:42:58 pm
Good grief.This, muchly.
Nothing like a free press.
That sounds like pretty shabby behaviour.
I think where we are interacting is commonly known as 'a forum'. The mysterious requester should perhaps remind themselves of what that word means.
Post by: JenM on 29 November, 2019, 04:55:55 pm
quixoticgeek - please come back.
Post by: orraloon on 29 November, 2019, 10:07:51 pm
Post by: teethgrinder on 29 November, 2019, 11:40:09 pm
TCR is a race, whether you race seriously or not. Audaxes aren't races but some treat them as such. Trans Atlantic Way isn't a race, but a lot of us treated it as one.
Taking the piss?
I'd be careful about saying that about a rider with a different approach without knowing their reasoning. I can see the benefits of camping and cooking. Better sleep quality makes a huge difference. They may have food allergies, a specific feed plan that works for them, problems with strange beds etc etc. A tent can be erected quickly if you know how and you don't need to hunt it down.
Even if someone isn't doing it the best way possible, knowingly or not. They might be doing it the best way they possibly can. I know that quite a few don't really race. Just as in the London Marathon.
£25 to apply for a place?
Screw that IMO. YMMV.
Riding to the start?
Seemed to work for Lael Wilcox when she won TransAm. I also had an interesting discussion with Ian Walker (N-S cross Europe WR holder) about how he felt that he started going better after so many days into his attempt and whether riding to the start might possibly be and advantage.
W/kg for climbing?
I aimed for <3W/kg on Trans Atlantic Way and Trans Alba (low end of tempo for me, as a guess, as I didn't know my exact FTP). Only going harder when I had to to keep my balance. Hardly ever over 3.5W/kg. Much slower than my peers but it didn't seem to do them much good. I was carrying more luggage weight than most.
As said, improving your W/kg will help your climbing. Don't overlook weight/strength training. I don't have the flexibility to do squats without hurting my lower back (or I just can't do them right) so I do EMS, which is also helping with my flexibility.
Gearing?
I used 28/38/48 and 11-32 for Trans Atlantic Way and Trans Alba. I thought that'd be plenty low enough. I'd have liked a bit lower and I don't like spinning. Steepest hill was about 25% IIRC.
I don't think anyone knows enough to say that one way works better than another. Especially when you consider the variations in routes, weather, different events, different riders etc etc. Always good to see different approaches and ideas.
Best of luck quixoticgeek :thumbsup:
(I hope you ignore whoever it was who tried to bully you into silence)
Post by: S2L on 30 November, 2019, 07:52:38 am
W/kg for climbing?
I aimed for <3W/kg on Trans Atlantic Way and Trans Alba (low end of tempo for me, as a guess, as I didn't know my exact FTP). Only going harder when I had to to keep my balance. Hardly ever over 3.5W/kg. Much slower than my peers but it didn't seem to do them much good. I was carrying more luggage weight than most.
As said, improving your W/kg will help your climbing. Don't overlook weight/strength training. I don't have the flexibility to do
Interesting. I always thought any W/Kg improvement had to come from a more efficient cardiovascular performance, rather than from more muscle mass. Certainly that seems to be the way doping has gone over the past 3 decades.
By doing a lot of strength focused gym work, doesn't one run the risk of offsetting any Watt increase by "beefing up" so to speak?
Post by: teethgrinder on 30 November, 2019, 08:40:59 am
IIRC Beryl Burton and Eileen Sheridan did a lot of weight training. Neither of them had great big muscles.
Graeme Obree rode a big gear uphill as his strength training.
Post by: bludger on 30 November, 2019, 08:43:08 am
Post by: FifeingEejit on 30 November, 2019, 11:27:41 am
I remember reading about motor racing that there are two attitudes: the Juan Fangio approach, in which you win at the slowest speed possible, and the Stirling Moss attitude that the car will explode through extreme abuse the instant it crosses the line. I may have got the wrong names, but you can surely find the names of ultraracers to fit.Fangio was also a bit ruthless, apparently punting both Peter Collins and Mike hawthorn into the hedges on the Nürburgring, a few weeks later Collins was deid.
Italian cars were a bit more reliable than British ones at the time too, even though vanwalls owed a lot to ferrari.
As for gearing I've got 22-32 on my touring bike, never cowped off it due to low speed, well below walking speed before feeling a need to put a fit doon.
Also some people taking the "race" element far too narrowly.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Post by: Mr Larrington on 30 November, 2019, 12:19:33 pm
Italian cars were a bit more reliable than British ones at the time too, even though vanwalls owed a lot to ferrari.
Up to a point, Lord Copper. The Vanwall engine was closely based on Norton motorcycle practice. The original and somewhat agricultural chassis was by John Cooper and its replacement by Colin Chapman. The bodywork was designed by Frank Costin. Tony Vandervell had previously run Ferrari 125 and 375 F1 cars under the "Thinwall Special" name which was enough to convince him that he could do better by starting from first principles. It took a while, but in 1958 Vanwall won the Constructors Championship with six wins, compared with two each for Cooper and Ferrari.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 30 November, 2019, 10:50:36 pm
The wikipaedia article on vanwall gives a decent breakdown of what went into the championship car and its various flaws.
Erm Ive rather taken this off topic...
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Post by: mattc on 01 December, 2019, 08:04:51 am
Re: application fees, entry lotteries, blah ... I've now read about the bursary arrangement LostDot are setting up. This makes the £25 fee a little more understandable.
I'd say their intentions were wholly good, but I still feel it's not the right answer. Of course these things always evolve, and no system is perfect ...
EDIT: I only heard about this on Facebook - annoyingly, google can't find me a live page about it. [I don't understand why the Search Results page can show some particular phrase, but neither live page nor cached page contains it. Bah!]
Post by: morbihan on 01 December, 2019, 01:40:42 pm
ANYWAY ...
Re: application fees, entry lotteries, blah ... I've now read about the bursary arrangement LostDot are setting up. This makes the £25 fee a little more understandable.
I'd say their intentions were wholly good, but I still feel it's not the right answer. Of course these things always evolve, and no system is perfect ...
Well said. Rory and Anna have had to buy out the rights to TCR at not inconsiderable expense. They are hyper aware of being inclusive and I am sure cognisant of the various feedback. As you say its a work in progress as the event gains more traction and if an alternative way to weed out entrants who have little or no intention of riding can be found Im sure the organisers will give it due consideration.
Yup, ultimately I imagine there is always going to be some form of compromise and its one of the situations where they are never going to be able to please everyone.
I dont envy them their task and I just hope that folks keep their opinions kind and measured. Its not an easy thing that they do.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 11 January, 2020, 01:43:54 am
Just got an email from Lost dot.
Looks like I'm going to Brest!!!
613 people applied, including 64 women.
Who else got a place?
J
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 11 January, 2020, 07:52:54 am
Post by: Frank9755 on 11 January, 2020, 10:07:25 am
Post by: morbihan on 11 January, 2020, 12:43:33 pm
I've been lucky again.
Ahh so we do get to meet in Brest after all Frank, a year after you bailed on me :-)
Looking forward to racing against you. You too QG.
Post by: Phil W on 11 January, 2020, 01:57:20 pm
Interesting. I always thought any W/Kg improvement had to come from a more efficient cardiovascular performance, rather than from more muscle mass.
“Active muscle mass involved during exercise is highly associated with VO2max and this relationship may explain partially age-related decline in VO2max. However, the influence of muscle mass on aerobic capacity in elderly athletes may be less, compared to younger athletes. Furthermore, central factors, such as the loss of HR and maximal cardiac output with aging clearly contribute to the reductions in aerobic capacity.“
From many of the studies on the subject.
Muscle mass used during exercise is highly associated with VO2 Max. If you can recruit more muscle mass in the legs, you’ll increase that W/kg figure. VO2 max is about oxygen take up, not just delivery. Recruit is also important as we don’t recruit 100% of the available muscle mass during exercise, but strength training increases how many of the available muscle fibres are engaged simultaneously during exercise. There’s some quite interesting studies on this as well.
Anecdotally since I started riding my new recumbent six weeks ago. I’ve been leg limited rather than cardio limited, after a year of mostly road bike and a quiet autumn. So ramp tests would end as the legs gave out rather reaching max HR. I’ve been working on strength and committed to riding the recumbent every time since. Recent ramp tests and I’m now pushing the HR 13 BPM higher before failure. Definitely down to stronger and better adapted legs.
So for me leg strength work is definitely raising my max aerobic power. My FTP On the recumbent has also risen 23% as I’ve got stronger. Admittedly from a low base (2.4W/ kg) for some. I know I have efficient lungs for getting oxygen into my blood from the Kings College lung function study last May. From a similar starting point on road bike last year I reached 3.3W/ Kg (FTP) by late Spring and hope to do the same on the new recumbent.
So don’t neglect off bike strength work if you want to generate more power. Oh and my weight has remained pretty stable over same period.
And back to TCR no8...
Post by: bludger on 11 January, 2020, 02:34:23 pm
Post by: sojournermike on 11 January, 2020, 08:29:57 pm
Interesting. I always thought any W/Kg improvement had to come from a more efficient cardiovascular performance, rather than from more muscle mass.
“Active muscle mass involved during exercise is highly associated with VO2max and this relationship may explain partially age-related decline in VO2max. However, the influence of muscle mass on aerobic capacity in elderly athletes may be less, compared to younger athletes. Furthermore, central factors, such as the loss of HR and maximal cardiac output with aging clearly contribute to the reductions in aerobic capacity.“
From many of the studies on the subject.
Muscle mass used during exercise is highly associated with VO2 Max. If you can recruit more muscle mass in the legs, you’ll increase that W/kg figure. VO2 max is about oxygen take up, not just delivery. Recruit is also important as we don’t recruit 100% of the available muscle mass during exercise, but strength training increases how many of the available muscle fibres are engaged simultaneously during exercise. There’s some quite interesting studies on this as well.
Anecdotally since I started riding my new recumbent six weeks ago. I’ve been leg limited rather than cardio limited, after a year of mostly road bike and a quiet autumn. So ramp tests would end as the legs gave out rather reaching max HR. I’ve been working on strength and committed to riding the recumbent every time since. Recent ramp tests and I’m now pushing the HR 13 BPM higher before failure. Definitely down to stronger and better adapted legs.
So for me leg strength work is definitely raising my max aerobic power. My FTP On the recumbent has also risen 23% as I’ve got stronger. Admittedly from a low base (2.4W/ kg) for some. I know I have efficient lungs for getting oxygen into my blood from the Kings College lung function study last May. From a similar starting point on road bike last year I reached 3.3W/ Kg (FTP) by late Spring and hope to do the same on the new recumbent.
So don’t neglect off bike strength work if you want to generate more power. Oh and my weight has remained pretty stable over same period.
And back to TCR no8...
This, specicifity and eccentric vs concentric contractoin probably work to explain the gap between my running and cycling VO2max - both of which are lower than when I was in my 20s...
Post by: Frank9755 on 12 January, 2020, 09:26:27 pm
I've been lucky again.
Ahh so we do get to meet in Brest after all Frank, a year after you bailed on me :-)
Looking forward to racing against you. You too QG.
Will be good to actually meet, given I feel like we've known each other for years!
Post by: Frank9755 on 12 January, 2020, 09:28:37 pm
Just got an email from Lost dot.
Looks like I'm going to Brest!!!
613 people applied, including 64 women.
Who else got a place?
J
Congratulations, but, to be fair, you would have to have seriously annoyed them not to have got a place!
I have a hunch that there might be at least one other on the forum who might have got a place too...
Post by: rob on 12 January, 2020, 09:32:37 pm
Just got an email from Lost dot.
Looks like I'm going to Brest!!!
613 people applied, including 64 women.
Who else got a place?
J
Congratulations, but, to be fair, you would have to have seriously annoyed them not to have got a place!
I have a hunch that there might be at least one other on the forum who might have got a place too...
I know of a couple. Maybe they’re in shock or on the turbo ?
Post by: Karla on 12 January, 2020, 10:39:13 pm
Post by: Frank9755 on 13 January, 2020, 05:36:48 am
Probably early July. I DNS'd in mid-June in 2018 and that was before the list came out.
Post by: Frank9755 on 13 January, 2020, 05:45:08 am
I have struggled with the whole pay-to-regoster thing, but assuming the bursary scheme does some good things,
I may well be proved wrong but I have some misgivings about how they have implemented this.
"Who are we looking for?
We would like the successful recipients of the bursary to represent the race as ambassadors, promoting the spirit of the Transcontinental Race and proving that you do not need deep pockets when you have passion, determination and man’s greatest invention at your disposal.
Our ideal candidate will be someone who can assist Lost Dot in our ambition to improve diversity and inclusion within the race and ultimately cycling generally. We would be looking for candidates who can tell their story, from preparation and training to the finish, to a wide audience, hopefully inspiring more people to get pedalling."
Firstly, only a week to apply doesn't give people much time to get their things together, and then making it so that they will receive extensive publicity might not be everyone's cup of tea. Some may be fine with it but others on low incomes may not want to give such a high profile to their personal situation, both for normal reasons of privacy and also because it could put extra pressure on them during the event.
Post by: bludger on 13 January, 2020, 10:52:39 am
Think I'll still volunteer to support the race. There are things they can do better but I think they're trying.
(https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/screenshots-eu-komoot/tour_embed_screenshots/06cc1bda452fa7b1d5739d0c90c16587_109635672.png) (https://i.imgur.com/egGKkIO.png)
Draft route...
Post by: rob on 13 January, 2020, 11:35:49 am
Despite this being a bit of a long shot for me to enter, I had also discounted it as it was too difficult to get a ride.
Post by: Frank9755 on 13 January, 2020, 12:41:12 pm
Shame you didn't enter!
Post by: Frank9755 on 13 January, 2020, 12:46:13 pm
That is true. I don't know. TBH I think it's now accepted that TCR is not a private personal challenge, it is a race with your name and face up on a live tracking leaderboard which thousands of people follow all around the world. Your background and general 'story' is liable to come under a lot of visibility.
Think I'll still volunteer to support the race. There are things they can do better but I think they're trying.
Agree with that, it's all well-intentioned stuff. And much easier to make critical observations than to actually make the right call on things.
I think there's massive interest in the winner, but it tails off rapidly after that. A few people have made an effort to promote themselves, either for a laugh or to get publicity for their own ventures. And some people are sponsored by brands so they are essentially generating content for marketing purposes. But for the average person who is not on the podium, not sponsored and not a raging self-publicist or tweeter, it is mostly only close friends and family who know much about what they are doing.
Post by: Phil W on 13 January, 2020, 12:47:38 pm
I have a hunch that there might be at least one other on the forum who might have got a place too...
There is, one other forum member has confirmed on his latest video that he has got a place.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 January, 2020, 04:02:28 pm
Congratulations, but, to be fair, you would have to have seriously annoyed them not to have got a place!
I have a hunch that there might be at least one other on the forum who might have got a place too...
I was hoping there would be a fiona effect, and that 150+ women would have applied, and then we'd have a lottery.
Still, 1 more woman than last year...
J
Post by: bludger on 13 January, 2020, 04:19:28 pm
Post by: djrikki on 13 January, 2020, 04:22:15 pm
At least I know how to get back from Burgas by train...
J
I'd really like to know more about how to go about this down to the nitty gritty.
Post by: bludger on 13 January, 2020, 04:37:00 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 January, 2020, 04:59:52 pm
I'd really like to know more about how to go about this down to the nitty gritty.
- Train to Sofia, they accept bikes on the trains, you have to buy a ticket for it, but there is no actual bike space, get in at the rear most door, and lock your bike across the rear door that would go to the next carriage if there was one.
- Despite what the timetable says, and thus what the rail planner apps say, you can take your bike on the train from Sofia to Belgrade. You can buy the ticket in Sofia station, note that they only take cash at the international ticket office. They can reserve you a seat, and provide you with a bike ticket, but it is only valid as far as the border with Serbia, once across the border you can buy a ticket for the bike from the guard. Make sure you have Serbian currency for this. This train has no aircon, no catering, and takes ages. Pack accordingly.
- From Belgrade, conclude that Zagreb is cycling distance, so take the largely flat route along the river that follows the railway line. Bump into a Hippy at a bus stop, exchange stories while eating a kitkat and watching migs flying around. Cross the border into Croatia, and realise that Zagreb is ages away still, so get a hotel in the town of Vinkovci.
- Wake up realising that you haven't actually recovered from 36 hours without food in 40°+C heat, and you feel like crap, take train to Zagreb. Same arrangement as train to Sofia they can sell you a ticket for you and the bike but there is no bike space stick it across the door at the back.
- After a nice nights sleep in Zagreb, decide that you might as well try cycling to Ljubljana. Follow the Sava river, bumping into Mikää at a pizzeria just across the border in Slovenia. Discover that slovenia is really pretty, but you're still slow and not 100%, train the final 20k to Ljubljana.
- Laying in a dubious booking.com hotel in Ljubljana, realise that you're mentally utterly fucked and you kinda want to be around people who can related to what is going on, as social media is a dumpster fire. Decide to head for CP3. Book train from Ljubljana to Innsbrook. Randomly bump into Frank who's wrapped his bike in a bin bag, and against all odds had the misfortune to get not only onto the same train as me but into the same coach. Exchange war stories. Night in Innsbruck.
- Cycle the 100k to CP3. Realise there is a hill at the end wimp out and take a bus the final 15km. Overtake hippy on the bus. Try to persuade Austrian traffic police to give hippy a speeding ticket, but they claim that at 9kph there is no way they could do it, even as a joke.
- Spend 2 days at CP3, help out on the desk, greet riders, chat to other scratchers and volunteers, chat to Anna, come to terms with wtf I have done.
- Hitch hike to the top of the pass, cycle all the way down to Germany, Catch train to Mannheim.
- Decide that it's a good idea to try and ride the final 500km home, it's all down hill along the river right? Get 12km out of town, shelter from a massive cloud burst in a bus shelter. Accidentally drop bike derailer side down. Discover that you now have gears -1 through 10, rather than 1 through 11, and after getting chain out of spokes, ride slowly to the station, find all IC class trains are fully booked for bikes for the day, so proceed to take 7 regional trains the rest of the way home.
That was the route I took.
If I was to do it again as a simple I just want to get home fast, the train I got on in Ljubljana actually started in Zagreb, and it went all the way to Frankfurt, which has direct connections to the Netherlands (ICE, if bike bagged, change at Osnabruck or Dusseldorf otherwise). There is a night train you can take that goes all the way to Ljubljana from Belgrade, I haven't worked out the precise connection times tho. There is an alternative route from Sofia to Bucharest, then Budapest, Wien, Munchen, and what ever German IC train works.
If I successfully make it to Burgas this year, I haven't worked out what my plan is to get home. A flight to Brussels is quick, and even bought at short notice not too expensive, but finding a bike box may be hard. Or I may try the Sofia, Belgrade, Budapest, Wien route...
Anyway, this is probably stretching the limits of staying on topic for a tcr thread. I hope that it doesn't attract the ire of grumpy PM's. Maybe if you have questions we should fork this section of the thread?
J
Post by: morbihan on 13 January, 2020, 07:12:01 pm
I'm making some major alterations to my rig for the race. So major in fact that on reflection I concluded it was prudent to build a new bike altogether and leave it over in Europe rather than chop out all the stuff on my bike here and risk the back and forth and $ involved in the flights.
As a nod to advancing age and various aches and pains in a knee and rugby neck I have specced a slightly more relaxed geometry, super low gears, slightly lower BB than my current machine, 650b and mahoosive tires. It should serve well for when I get even older and more broken. After that its dominoes because gardening is already a pain in the back.
Post by: Frank9755 on 13 January, 2020, 08:18:36 pm
I see Matt F is sitting it out this year. Its always interesting to see the characters on the start list that have pointy end potential.
Who is riding who is a podium contender?
Post by: djrikki on 13 January, 2020, 08:26:35 pm
I'd really like to know more about how to go about this down to the nitty gritty.
- Train to Sofia, they accept bikes on the trains, you have to buy a ticket for it, but there is no actual bike space, get in at the rear most door, and lock your bike across the rear door that would go to the next carriage if there was one.
- Despite what the timetable says, and thus what the rail planner apps say, you can take your bike on the train from Sofia to Belgrade. You can buy the ticket in Sofia station, note that they only take cash at the international ticket office. They can reserve you a seat, and provide you with a bike ticket, but it is only valid as far as the border with Serbia, once across the border you can buy a ticket for the bike from the guard. Make sure you have Serbian currency for this. This train has no aircon, no catering, and takes ages. Pack accordingly.
- From Belgrade, conclude that Zagreb is cycling distance, so take the largely flat route along the river that follows the railway line. Bump into a Hippy at a bus stop, exchange stories while eating a kitkat and watching migs flying around. Cross the border into Croatia, and realise that Zagreb is ages away still, so get a hotel in the town of Vinkovci.
- Wake up realising that you haven't actually recovered from 36 hours without food in 40°+C heat, and you feel like crap, take train to Zagreb. Same arrangement as train to Sofia they can sell you a ticket for you and the bike but there is no bike space stick it across the door at the back.
- After a nice nights sleep in Zagreb, decide that you might as well try cycling to Ljubljana. Follow the Sava river, bumping into Mikää at a pizzeria just across the border in Slovenia. Discover that slovenia is really pretty, but you're still slow and not 100%, train the final 20k to Ljubljana.
- Laying in a dubious booking.com hotel in Ljubljana, realise that you're mentally utterly fucked and you kinda want to be around people who can related to what is going on, as social media is a dumpster fire. Decide to head for CP3. Book train from Ljubljana to Innsbrook. Randomly bump into Frank who's wrapped his bike in a bin bag, and against all odds had the misfortune to get not only onto the same train as me but into the same coach. Exchange war stories. Night in Innsbruck.
- Cycle the 100k to CP3. Realise there is a hill at the end wimp out and take a bus the final 15km. Overtake hippy on the bus. Try to persuade Austrian traffic police to give hippy a speeding ticket, but they claim that at 9kph there is no way they could do it, even as a joke.
- Spend 2 days at CP3, help out on the desk, greet riders, chat to other scratchers and volunteers, chat to Anna, come to terms with wtf I have done.
- Hitch hike to the top of the pass, cycle all the way down to Germany, Catch train to Mannheim.
- Decide that it's a good idea to try and ride the final 500km home, it's all down hill along the river right? Get 12km out of town, shelter from a massive cloud burst in a bus shelter. Accidentally drop bike derailer side down. Discover that you now have gears -1 through 10, rather than 1 through 11, and after getting chain out of spokes, ride slowly to the station, find all IC class trains are fully booked for bikes for the day, so proceed to take 7 regional trains the rest of the way home.
That was the route I took.
If I was to do it again as a simple I just want to get home fast, the train I got on in Ljubljana actually started in Zagreb, and it went all the way to Frankfurt, which has direct connections to the Netherlands (ICE, if bike bagged, change at Osnabruck or Dusseldorf otherwise). There is a night train you can take that goes all the way to Ljubljana from Belgrade, I haven't worked out the precise connection times tho. There is an alternative route from Sofia to Bucharest, then Budapest, Wien, Munchen, and what ever German IC train works.
If I successfully make it to Burgas this year, I haven't worked out what my plan is to get home. A flight to Brussels is quick, and even bought at short notice not too expensive, but finding a bike box may be hard. Or I may try the Sofia, Belgrade, Budapest, Wien route...
Anyway, this is probably stretching the limits of staying on topic for a tcr thread. I hope that it doesn't attract the ire of grumpy PM's. Maybe if you have questions we should fork this section of the thread?
J
Quite some journey you had, thanks for posting this. I guess it's not terribly straightforward ;D
Did you dismantle your bike at all that year? That sounds like a royal PITA.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 13 January, 2020, 08:28:32 pm
Who is riding who is a podium contender?
Fiona and Bjorn at a guess...
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 13 January, 2020, 10:00:57 pm
Post by: Ivo on 14 January, 2020, 06:20:46 am
There's a train from Brasov to Budapest carrying bikes. However, in 2017 when I took it it doesn't carry bikes over the border. The last Romanian railway station is Episcopia Bihor, the first Hungarian one is Biharkeresztes. The train takes 1h3 minutes for these 11km. So you can get out, cycle across the border and reboard the train at the first Hungarian railway station. I could even pay by credit card in the train in 2017.
Post by: Frank9755 on 14 January, 2020, 08:24:17 am
I'd really like to know more about how to go about this down to the nitty gritty.
- Train to Sofia...
Quite an adventure!
I enjoyed my train trip back from Austria. Not quite as eventful, only three trains and I broke the journey staying overnight with a friend in Frankfurt. It was such good fun that, when I had a business trip to Stuttgart in October, I went by train and retraced my steps along the same line.
I was thinking about getting the train back from Burgas and had looked it up on the man in seat 61. It would be fun but it would take a while - the trains are a lot slower east of the iron curtain. It's 7 hours from Burgas to Sofia on top of his 2-day route so it would mean leaving on the Sunday overnight train to get home for Wednesday evening!
https://www.seat61.com/Bulgaria.htm (https://www.seat61.com/Bulgaria.htm)
Post by: morbihan on 14 January, 2020, 12:11:37 pm
I see Matt F is sitting it out this year. Its always interesting to see the characters on the start list that have pointy end potential.
Who is riding who is a podium contender?
Pretty much. Maybe a new face to TCR with a top pedigree. Some one like Abdul Z. Or one of the ex pros that have expressed an interest in ultra racing. Then there are unknowns (or little knowns) who appear out of the blue and take the race by storm like Fiona last year.
Post by: rob on 14 January, 2020, 12:19:52 pm
Shame you didn't enter!
I was told the same when I got home last night. Not sure how to take that TBH.
Post by: morbihan on 17 January, 2020, 05:52:56 pm
Shame you didn't enter!
I was told the same when I got home last night. Not sure how to take that TBH.
Well there is always TPR open about now.
Post by: morbihan on 30 January, 2020, 01:59:15 pm
Im struggling to face a really long ride here on the Rock.
I did a couple of 500km rides last time round but I don't think I can face the monotony of it again.
Consequently trying to mix things up by depleting the body in the gym then riding afterwards.
Some sessions at a chiropractor too to free up an insistent stiff neck thats been hanging around for a few months. Not ideal for looking over your shoulder on the bike.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 30 January, 2020, 03:15:11 pm
Hows folks Winter training going? Long rides? Gym work? Not started yet?
Im struggling to face a really long ride here on the Rock.
I did a couple of 500km rides last time round but I don't think I can face the monotony of it again.
Consequently trying to mix things up by depleting the body in the gym then riding afterwards.
Some sessions at a chiropractor too to free up an insistent stiff neck thats been hanging around for a few months. Not ideal for looking over your shoulder on the bike.
I've had actual flu, It's taken me out for over 3 weeks now. I've lost what little fitness I had before. I'm not even fit enough to work at the moment, 50+kg cargo bikes + Dutch winds is too much.
J
Post by: mattc on 30 January, 2020, 07:41:24 pm
Sunday deadline - don't hang about! Everyone got in last year, but you have to apply :)Shame you didn't enter!
I was told the same when I got home last night. Not sure how to take that TBH.
Well there is always TPR open about now.
Post by: morbihan on 30 January, 2020, 08:38:58 pm
I mulled trying for this one as well as TCR this year but on reflection it wasn't fair on my partner or the knees. The quiet road nature of this event is very appealing for another time.Sunday deadline - don't hang about! Everyone got in last year, but you have to apply :)Shame you didn't enter!
I was told the same when I got home last night. Not sure how to take that TBH.
Well there is always TPR open about now.
Post by: Frank9755 on 01 February, 2020, 10:35:39 pm
Hows folks Winter training going? Long rides? Gym work? Not started yet?
Work has been crazy so I did one ride in January and half a dozen commutes. And I've not re-started turbo yet.
So, I've not ridden a whole lot since 1 August last year when I DNF'd in Austria. Just can't seem to find the time!
Post by: Karla on 02 February, 2020, 05:22:17 pm
Post by: Frank9755 on 03 February, 2020, 06:33:18 am
At this rate, I'll have to fall back base fitness and experience...
Post by: rob on 03 February, 2020, 11:46:03 am
J did his homework yesterday whilst A went out for a run and I did 2hrs on the turbo.
Post by: morbihan on 03 February, 2020, 01:00:55 pm
Mind you its been blowing 50 knots all weekend here. Small Island hill training upwind.
Post by: rob on 03 February, 2020, 01:25:33 pm
when I'm grumpy about training here on 20 square miles like a hamster in a cage I'll try to remember you guys inside on turbos in the Northern Winter.
Mind you its been blowing 50 knots all weekend here. Small Island hill training upwind.
It's been a very benign Winter so far - I managed to do 1,000 road miles in Jan. Must have been frosty maybe 5 times, although I do live in the South East.
Of course I'm not riding TCR so should probably drop out of the thread.
Post by: Phil W on 03 February, 2020, 02:34:19 pm
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 February, 2020, 09:00:11 am
Of course I'm not riding TCR so should probably drop out of the thread.
You can stay: at least you are riding!
Post by: morbihan on 05 February, 2020, 11:52:57 am
when I'm grumpy about training here on 20 square miles like a hamster in a cage I'll try to remember you guys inside on turbos in the Northern Winter.
Mind you its been blowing 50 knots all weekend here. Small Island hill training upwind.
It's been a very benign Winter so far - I managed to do 1,000 road miles in Jan. Must have been frosty maybe 5 times, although I do live in the South East.
Of course I'm not riding TCR so should probably drop out of the thread.
No stick around. You are shaming us racers into getting the miles in.
Post by: grams on 05 February, 2020, 12:41:09 pm
(Aiming for manning one of the intermediate controls)
Post by: Frank9755 on 05 February, 2020, 02:41:54 pm
Post by: S2L on 05 February, 2020, 04:40:31 pm
I know I have efficient lungs for getting oxygen into my blood from the Kings College lung function study last May. From a similar starting point on road bike last year I reached 3.3W/ Kg (FTP) by late Spring and hope to do the same on the new recumbent.
2.4 to 3.3 Watt/kg... basically you just lost a couple of stones of body fat... ::-) ::-)
Post by: bludger on 06 February, 2020, 11:25:08 am
Post by: morbihan on 06 February, 2020, 11:38:45 am
That's my CP application in. Hopefully Roubaix, my second pick is Austria which I'll partly get the train to so I can be sure I'm there in good time.
Good man. Thank you.
Assuming a long parcour isn't added at the start then the lead riders should be arriving in Roubaix by early on the second day.
Post by: bludger on 06 February, 2020, 12:54:02 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/zrWJizT.png)
Post by: Phil W on 07 February, 2020, 05:04:12 pm
I know I have efficient lungs for getting oxygen into my blood from the Kings College lung function study last May. From a similar starting point on road bike last year I reached 3.3W/ Kg (FTP) by late Spring and hope to do the same on the new recumbent.
2.4 to 3.3 Watt/kg... basically you just lost a couple of stones of body fat... ::-) ::-)
Nope my weight is pretty stable year round , I don’t have two stone of fat to lose. So you’ll have to speak for yourself.
Post by: morbihan on 23 February, 2020, 10:52:44 pm
https://www.uba-cycling.de
Post by: bludger on 02 March, 2020, 04:09:45 pm
Post by: mattc on 02 March, 2020, 08:46:24 pm
Mainly because I enjoy the personal contact of volunteering. You are actually forbidden from contact with your dots :'(
(and partly because my technology really wasn't upto the job - so it was taking a frustrating amount of time to do the job properly)
That's rather mean not "carrying over" your job-offer from October. :-\
Post by: bludger on 02 March, 2020, 09:44:40 pm
Post by: paddyirish on 02 March, 2020, 10:09:33 pm
Post by: grams on 02 March, 2020, 10:50:04 pm
Post by: Frank9755 on 03 March, 2020, 06:37:20 am
I dotwatched a couple of years ago, when I couldn't ride (as we'd had a baby just a few weeks before).
I really enjoyed it. I love maps and working out routes, and was familiar with some of the roads used, which helped. Also, having done the race before, I understood it from a rider's point of view.
I got a mix of people: I was lucky to be given one of the race leaders, I had a couple who were mid-pack, a straggler, a pair and one poor guy whose tracker didn't work so I had no idea where he was until he packed in.
For me, it was the next best thing to riding. I really got into following it, especially the battle at the front between James Hayden, Bjorn Lenhard and Jonas Goy. I learned things that have since been very useful when I have been racing and planning my route that I wouldn't have learned just from doing the ride.
My lead rider was scrupulous in adhering to the rules, but one of my dots made about 6 infringements on illegal roads. I spent most of my time on my lead rider. Partly because it was more important to the race but also because some of the others used a similar route so I didn't need to check it in detail.
The hard bits are in the mountains where there are often several routes parallel to each other. And countries without streetview are harder - Germany, Austria, Bosnia, etc - as it is useful to be able to look at the junctions for road signs.
It took me maybe an hour and a half per day for the first week, then less time as my riders finished or scratched. I then helped out on a few special analysis projects.
You really need two monitors (or one big one that you can split) so that you can look at maps at the same time as trackleaders / freeroute or whatever the dot is in.
Massive thanks to everyone who is helping - at controls, dotwatching or otherwise. If anyone wants any more info or advice on dotwatching, let me know: I wrote a short guide after I did it that I can share.
Post by: Karla on 03 March, 2020, 11:07:43 am
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 03 March, 2020, 11:22:05 am
Post by: morbihan on 03 March, 2020, 12:50:52 pm
I wouldn't read too much into the previous TPR application connection. The team that run TCR is very bare bones so its easy to miss things like that. Rory has exited now too so a heck of a lot on the plate for the remaining team. Volunteers are imperative.
I'd like to thank all the helpers as well.
I got to meet my dot watcher from TCRno6. at last years finish (he was racing and introduced himself) so I was able to thank him and appologise for the extra work I foisted on him off route in Bosnia and doubling back up the Mangart etc.
I'll likely volunteer to dot watch next year situation allowing.
My wife who managed the finish at Brest was on a communication channel that linked all the CP's.
As I understand it there is another channel that the dot watchers use so there is a community there to support those volunteers and keep then connected to events.
Post by: bludger on 03 March, 2020, 02:11:53 pm
Post by: grams on 03 March, 2020, 09:41:09 pm
The email says CP1 and 2 were oversubscribed so you were much less likely to get a place if those were your only options.
Post by: bludger on 03 March, 2020, 09:50:45 pm
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 March, 2020, 06:01:02 am
I’ve got a place at Montenegro CP3, straggler shift. I’ve promised to cycle all the way there...
The email says CP1 and 2 were oversubscribed so you were much less likely to get a place if those were your only options.
Durmitor and surroundings are beautiful; I hope you get the chance to ride a bit when you are there. The route in from Sarajevo to Pluzine is really beautiful, then the massif is stunning - like a different world up there. And the Tara Gorge south of the control is also stunning (allegedly, I rode it at night so have only seen @Karla's pictures).
I expect they don't dot watch your route down so, if you are short on time, jumping on the new sleeper from Brussels to Vienna might be an option!
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 March, 2020, 06:04:11 am
If anyone wants any more info or advice on dotwatching, let me know: I wrote a short guide after I did it that I can share.
I've had a quick look and not been able to find it. I'll post it here when I do.
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 March, 2020, 06:08:54 am
Rory has exited now
That's a shame - I hadn't heard that (or maybe it wasn't public knowledge, until now! :))
Post by: morbihan on 04 March, 2020, 12:53:25 pm
Rory has exited now
That's a shame - I hadn't heard that (or maybe it wasn't public knowledge, until now! :))
He made a public announcement a few days ago.
Post by: morbihan on 04 March, 2020, 01:20:23 pm
I’ve got a place at Montenegro CP3, straggler shift. I’ve promised to cycle all the way there...
The email says CP1 and 2 were oversubscribed so you were much less likely to get a place if those were your only options.
Durmitor and surroundings are beautiful; I hope you get the chance to ride a bit when you are there. The route in from Sarajevo to Pluzine is really beautiful, then the massif is stunning - like a different world up there. And the Tara Gorge south of the control is also stunning (allegedly, I rode it at night so have only seen @Karla's pictures).
I expect they don't dot watch your route down so, if you are short on time, jumping on the new sleeper from Brussels to Vienna might be an option!
I concur, a very beautiful part of the world to ride. I got to enjoy the gorge during day light on TCR no6. It was a welcome highlight after a rough day off route on the R433. I had ended up the previous night in the bizarre Hotel Moskva in Kalinovik after a day of unrideable gravel. There was a photo of Putin proudly staring down over the reception. The hole experience was pretty trippy. The weird vibe continued on the pre dawn departure when I rode past the mist enveloped statue of Ratio Mladić the Butcher of Bosnia. Still a local hero for some apparently. I was super glad to get on the M18 later that morning.
Post by: Frank9755 on 05 March, 2020, 06:19:02 am
Rory has exited now
That's a shame - I hadn't heard that (or maybe it wasn't public knowledge, until now! :))
He made a public announcement a few days ago.
OK, I missed that. What was it - wants to spend more time with family....?
Does that mean it is just Anna running everything? I hope she isn't overwhelmed.
Post by: Karla on 05 March, 2020, 12:33:20 pm
Post by: Frank9755 on 05 March, 2020, 01:09:04 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 05 March, 2020, 03:29:49 pm
Given all the travel bans and event cancellations going on, what is the general thought on the tcr being effected by this virus thing?
J
Post by: bludger on 05 March, 2020, 03:37:32 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 05 March, 2020, 03:38:48 pm
The travel stuff would be problematic if people were flying. For those cycling, using most trains and driving vans I should think there won't be a problem. Potentially some racers/controllers will pull out from sickness though.
Gonna liven up route planning if we have to avoid quarantine zones. At least this years route doesn't involve Italy...
J
Post by: bludger on 05 March, 2020, 03:50:14 pm
Post by: Phil W on 05 March, 2020, 05:58:03 pm
On the other hand if there are people laid up with/recovering from the flu maybe they'll be minded to dot watch...
If they are laid up with flu they won’t be minded to dot watch I wouldn’t think.
My wife came home from work with flu today. She’s been mostly in bed asleep with a hot water bottle and still feels cold. She managed 20 min downstairs just now when I made her another cup of tea and fresh hot water bottle. She’s just gone back to bed. In other words she’s wiped out. Which is what I’d expect when flu sets in.
Covid19 is confirmed round here (nearest 1.5 miles away, another 6 miles away in the town my wife works in), though no many cases (yet)
Whatever she has I can’t see me avoiding it, however much I’m washing my hands. We can but hope, firstly that it’s normal flu, and secondly the symptoms are mild in our case.
Post by: Davef on 05 March, 2020, 06:31:49 pm
The travel stuff would be problematic if people were flying. For those cycling, using most trains and driving vans I should think there won't be a problem. Potentially some racers/controllers will pull out from sickness though.Stopping usage of public transport is one of the more extreme contingencies. You can still cycle but the wet bit would be a challenge.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: bludger on 05 March, 2020, 07:23:02 pm
The safest bet would probably be a van share. Or better yet a private coach.
Post by: morbihan on 07 March, 2020, 11:58:16 am
Back home here in Bermuda there are no recorded cases on the Island as yet. Thats obviously just a question of time with the cruise ship season imminent and so many business/vacation travellers.
We have a vacation rental on the property here (bikes for the guests if course!) and its booked out at the moment. Id wager that there will be cancellations and no shows in the near future.
Interesting times
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 07 March, 2020, 01:08:39 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 18 March, 2020, 08:21:07 pm
So how do we rate the chances of this one going ahead?
J
Post by: Karla on 18 March, 2020, 08:32:01 pm
Post by: mattc on 18 March, 2020, 08:46:49 pm
I'll put in a bid at 5%Yeah, it's gotta be low :( Mainly as so many different territories need traversing.
Post by: morbihan on 18 March, 2020, 09:06:12 pm
We have also cancelled our early June departure for Europe and will see how the lay of the land is nearer the time.
Amazingly we have still had no known cases of covid here on the Island yet. I worry though as with all the International travel (before the lock down) it surely must have slipped though. There is a 15%+ rate of diabetes here, a goodly smattering of heart conditions and plenty of older folks. One small town hospital. Its not a good scenario for an Island wide pandemic.
If the shit hits the fan and a lot of people go down I couldn't in good conscience head off racing. The folks who are still standing will need to step up and help out with things.
Post by: Davef on 18 March, 2020, 09:29:30 pm
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: quixoticgeek on 18 March, 2020, 10:41:54 pm
Not looking likely is it. Things are changing by the day though so who knows. Theres always next year, Its only a bike race and all that.
Yeah. If it doesn't happen this year, I'll try again in 2022. 2021 I really want to give LEL a go.
It's a shame, but it's probably for the best.
J
Post by: Karla on 23 March, 2020, 12:51:31 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 March, 2020, 05:33:53 pm
It's been postponed for a year.
Gonna clash with LEL :(
J
Post by: morbihan on 25 July, 2020, 04:24:53 am
Post by: morbihan on 11 November, 2020, 12:17:35 pm
It alludes to the fact that while there is every intention of the race going ahead next year, the route may well be altered to accommodate covid related issues. Likewise the date is not nailed on, though the intention is to keep it as close to the original as possible.
As much as can be, will be revealed in the upcoming race manual which will be released next month.
The email also states that there will be new volunteer roles and opportunities for TCRNo8 which may interest some of you.
Post by: Frank9755 on 12 November, 2020, 01:48:49 pm
Post by: mattc on 12 November, 2020, 08:11:55 pm
With LEL already postponed, it is the big events with lots of international participants that are most at risk.Yes, but the fully supported ones have the worst prospects (hence LEL being the only cancellation I'm aware of).
Sad news, we can but hope ...
Post by: Groot the leveller on 10 December, 2020, 11:35:19 am
I'm a newbie here, but I've just started to pick things up in preparation for tcr8
I'm intrigued to see if there any changes to the start/finnish, and control points, as I don't fancy the current logistics much in a covid summer window of sort of normality
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 10 December, 2020, 11:38:18 am
Post by: Karla on 10 December, 2020, 11:50:55 am
Post by: morbihan on 10 December, 2020, 01:16:55 pm
They're releasing news of the new date and adapted route the day after tomorrow.
Oh did I miss a notification?
last detail I saw was "before the end of December"?
Post by: Karla on 10 December, 2020, 04:12:50 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 10 December, 2020, 05:37:21 pm
However, lost dot are doing medicine of the TCR event on Saturday. Is that what you were thinking of ?
J
Post by: Karla on 10 December, 2020, 09:47:16 pm
Post by: Karla on 11 December, 2020, 05:14:23 pm
Post by: Karla on 22 December, 2020, 04:47:33 pm
Jan 22nd is the final decision date. Refunds are available but deferrals aren't - which is a bit annoying given they've been deferring us all for the last year. Ho hum.
Post by: rob on 22 December, 2020, 05:11:45 pm
The CTT calendar is going to be out on Jan 4th, so potentially two or three weeks later. I wonder how long we'll have to make up our minds?
I've managed to find most of the dates I need via the local committees and begging the odd favour. Any particular events you're interested in ? Feel free to PM as OT.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 22 December, 2020, 05:46:15 pm
Massive improvement. Have been playing around with komoot for the route from CP1 to CP2. Am excited.
J
Post by: quixoticgeek on 22 December, 2020, 08:25:16 pm
Have now got a draft route for the whole distance now. Doesn't seem to be much option in Greece to avoid a 1500m bump :( But all in all I get 3800-3900km with about 36500m of climbing. Which is a distinct improvement.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 23 December, 2020, 06:42:55 am
I can sort of understand why they have done it this way but I'm not sure their thinking is right - it's not guaranteed that Schengen borders are more likely to be open than those in Eastern Europe, and if some borders are closed anywhere in Europe, it's unlikely to go ahead anyway.
It's a bit shorter, which is significant. They are saying 3,700km. A fast rider (ie KA or JH) could probably do this in under a week and it is more like a week and a half rather than two weeks for a mid-pack rider such as me. That doesn't sound much but, from my experience of doing long stuff, each extra day makes it a lot harder mentally.
There's a lot of France. France is great but it's not an adventure. It does have a lot of roads, though, as does Italy, so there are likely to be a lot more routing options than a normal TCR.
I've not ridden in Italy below the Po Valley so that is more interesting (although it looks like there will be a slog across the Po Valley between controls 2 and 3). Riding across Greece is kind of interesting. But lack of Balkans is what stops it from being a proper TCR IMHO. And having a long ferry that near the end kind of spoils the race element. I did that ferry the other way when I was a student - took about 20 hours.
I am pleased not to have to do that long, rough descent in Romania, and deal with Romanian drivers altogether. But Italians are pretty bad for close passes.
But having the start in France is clearly not a good idea - groups of 20 staggered at 30 min intervals. So if there are 300 the last group would be 7 hours behind the first! A TT-style start with 1 minute intervals would be better from a distancing point of view and only take 5 hours. Or cut it to 30 seconds and have pairs going together - get everyone off on their own in a couple of hours.
Lots of gushing on Facebook from newbies who applaud anything, but I've heard of a few people thinking about giving it a miss. Chris White made an interesting suggestion - get inside the time limit without using the ferry. Looks a bit tough though, I had a quick look on the map and it seems to add 1000-1200km.
Post by: Frank9755 on 23 December, 2020, 06:47:00 am
Refunds are available but deferrals aren't - which is a bit annoying given they've been deferring us all for the last year. Ho hum.
Well it wasn't really 'them' who deferred us!
Deferrals have never been allowed, for good reasons as it would lead to more drop-outs. But if you have a good reason for not being able to make it this year, I reckon your chances of getting in next time are good.
Post by: Frank9755 on 23 December, 2020, 08:11:05 am
Post by: Karla on 23 December, 2020, 10:43:54 am
Refunds are available but deferrals aren't - which is a bit annoying given they've been deferring us all for the last year. Ho hum.
Well it wasn't really 'them' who deferred us!
Deferrals have never been allowed, for good reasons as it would lead to more drop-outs. But if you have a good reason for not being able to make it this year, I reckon your chances of getting in next time are good.
They didn't cause covid but they did hold onto our money for a year! It would have been the polite to give us her option of doing the same, and I'm sure they could fill any places.
As you say, there's a lot of France. From having very briefly glanced at it yesterday, the make or break moments will be the long mandatory section in Italy (which I presume is gravel / strade bianche) and ferry choice across the Adriatic. It'll be a shame to miss most of the Balkans though.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 December, 2020, 10:49:04 am
I guess it appeals to those who are not keen to be chased by packs of wild dogs or find that their credit card is laughed at in a small village in the Balkans... probably a move towards a more inclusive event... possibly aspiring to gender balance, seeing that women can not only take part, but seemingly even win
Post by: Karla on 23 December, 2020, 11:01:33 am
Also, I thought this was meant to be a race precisely for wild dog lovers.
Post by: L CC on 23 December, 2020, 11:02:32 am
So France, Italy, then a Ferry to Greece... very civilised...
I guess it appeals to those who are not keen to be chased by packs of wild dogs or find that their credit card is laughed at in a small village in the Balkans... probably a move towards a more inclusive event... possibly aspiring to gender balance, seeing that women can not only take part, but seemingly even win
I'm not remotely interested in
Post by: Frank9755 on 23 December, 2020, 11:06:19 am
So France, Italy, then a Ferry to Greece... very civilised...
I guess it appeals to those who are not keen to be chased by packs of wild dogs or find that their credit card is laughed at in a small village in the Balkans... probably a move towards a more inclusive event... possibly aspiring to gender balance, seeing that women can not only take part, but seemingly even win
Hmm, not sure about that.
Dogs are as bad in Greece as anywhere, and quite bad in Italy.
Credit cards are pretty widely accepted in those small towns in the Balkans - by shops with long opening hours. In France, you struggle to find anything and, if you do, it might not be open.
Why is not going to the Balkans more inclusive...?
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 December, 2020, 11:07:15 am
Are you saying women can only do shorter races? That's an interesting opinion there :-\
No, I am saying that maybe some women are put off entering TCR because it goes through countries which are not considered to be as "safe" as the Western Europe... whether that is true or not, it is a different matter.
It might even be a decision by the organisers that see France and Italy as a safer bet in times of a pandemic, with reliable data, over the Balkans which might be an unknown quantity...
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 December, 2020, 11:09:31 am
Hmm, not sure about that.
Dogs are as bad in Greece as anywhere, and quite bad in Italy.
Credit cards are pretty widely accepted in those small towns in the Balkans - by shops with long opening hours. In France, you struggle to find anything and, if you do, it might not be open.
Why is not going to the Balkans more inclusive...?
Perception... most people who enter TCR for the first time know about France and Italy, many have been there... how many have been to the Balkans?
I've never been... it's an unknown quantity, which will attract some and put off others
Post by: Frank9755 on 23 December, 2020, 11:13:12 am
As you say, there's a lot of France. From having very briefly glanced at it yesterday, the make or break moments will be the long mandatory section in Italy (which I presume is gravel / strade bianche) and ferry choice across the Adriatic. It'll be a shame to miss most of the Balkans though.
I think it's road. Looks good though - 100 miles of scenic, empty lanes in the middle of Italy.
The parcours near the Stelvio is the hard one: off-road at 2750m. No problem on a sunny day - but a different proposition at 3am in a thunderstorm.
The ferry introduces a large element of luck, but the field will be pretty strung out by then, so it won't lead to people losing dozens of places. The temptation will be to put in a big day or two before the ferry, rest on it, then another big two days to finish.
Post by: Frank9755 on 23 December, 2020, 11:17:16 am
Are you saying women can only do shorter races? That's an interesting opinion there :-\
No, I am saying that maybe some women are put off entering TCR because it goes through countries which are not considered to be as "safe" as the Western Europe... whether that is true or not, it is a different matter.
It might even be a decision by the organisers that see France and Italy as a safer bet in times of a pandemic, with reliable data, over the Balkans which might be an unknown quantity...
Wrong on all counts, I'm afraid!
People who ride applied when they thought it was going to Burgas
Going to the Balkans isn't what puts women off - it's mainly lack of role models and confidence - on which they have done a lot of work.
The route decision is about fewer borders. Italy and France have not exactly been the best places during the pandemic - almost as bad as the UK!
Post by: JonBuoy on 23 December, 2020, 11:49:10 am
As you say, there's a lot of France. From having very briefly glanced at it yesterday, the make or break moments will be the long mandatory section in Italy (which I presume is gravel / strade bianche) and ferry choice across the Adriatic. It'll be a shame to miss most of the Balkans though.
Komoot reckons that the 91.4 mile long Parcours 4 is 'Mostly well-paved surfaces and easy to ride.' I checked a couple of sections on Streetview and agree with them.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 December, 2020, 11:49:33 am
Post by: Mr Larrington on 23 December, 2020, 11:57:00 am
I guess they could take a route nord for a change... finishing in Estonia... or even in Sweden if there is a way to cycle on the bridge from Denmark...
There isn’t, unless putting yourself and your bike on a train qualifies.
Post by: morbihan on 23 December, 2020, 12:49:27 pm
Im sure there was a lot of pondering about how to plan a race that is an adventure but is less likely to be scuppered by changing travel regs.
Its a bare bones outfit. Hats off to them.
Personally speaking. Something..ANYTHING that involves cycling in a straight line after what will be nearly 2 years on 20 square miles makes me positively giddy.France though....
Balkans adds an exotic unknown element for sure but its also easy to resupply and find a bed. Everything's open 24/7.
Geri, you might want to revisit that statement. It doesn't come across at all well as it stands.
I like the "crossing of the wake" concept in Greece. (from Meteora editions) Yup that neck of the wood was lumpy.
I'm with Frank on the staggered start concept Its early days though and plenty of time to tweak that before race day.
There is also the parcour from the start to be released yet. It could be a circumnavigation of Brittany for all we know.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 23 December, 2020, 01:10:32 pm
Geri, you might want to revisit that statement. It doesn't come across at all well as it stands.
Totally, just speaking as someone who has never been to Bosnia, Macedonia or Montenegro and has no idea what to expect...
I suppose many have a fairly good idea of they will find in Italy and France...
Post by: CarlF on 23 December, 2020, 05:48:33 pm
I guess they could take a route nord for a change... finishing in Estonia... or even in Sweden if there is a way to cycle on the bridge from Denmark...
There isn’t, unless putting yourself and your bike on a train qualifies.
But the Øresund ferry (Helsingør-Helsingborg) is a 20 minute crossing and looks like it runs round the clock, every twenty minutes during the day, every half hour early morning and evening, and still more than once an hour in the middle of the night. Bikes go free and most crossings are battery powered. What’s not to like?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 December, 2020, 09:10:15 pm
The route is not very inspiring. It's basically the Orient Express route, only with a leg from Brest, a couple of kinks for controls and a mountain stage in Italy. Sure, it's a long, challenging ride, but the TCR is supposed to be an adventure, taking you to some places you've never been before, and way out of your comfort zone - and this doesn't really do that.
To me this is still going to be an adventure. I've never cycled up a mountain before. I've not done a ride longer than 2000km before. I really like this proposed route. It's difficult, without being needlessly so.
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I can sort of understand why they have done it this way but I'm not sure their thinking is right - it's not guaranteed that Schengen borders are more likely to be open than those in Eastern Europe, and if some borders are closed anywhere in Europe, it's unlikely to go ahead anyway.
The thing is the rules are about entering and leaving the EU. The only way to keep things wholly in the EU if you didn't go this way would be to include Hungary. Which previous TCR's have shown to be bloody dangerous for cyclists, and since it's got a right wing government, not safe for some riders of the TCR.
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It's a bit shorter, which is significant. They are saying 3,700km. A fast rider (ie KA or JH) could probably do this in under a week and it is more like a week and a half rather than two weeks for a mid-pack rider such as me. That doesn't sound much but, from my experience of doing long stuff, each extra day makes it a lot harder mentally.
I have 3800km for my route, I'm sure you could knock off 100k, but it would add a lot of up. I've very much optimised for lack of up. The 1500m peak <200km from the finish is still suboptimal, but I can't seem to find an alternative.
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There's a lot of France. France is great but it's not an adventure. It does have a lot of roads, though, as does Italy, so there are likely to be a lot more routing options than a normal TCR.
To you. A ride of this magnitude, it's an adventure. Are you suggesting that the transam is not an adventure cos it's just America?
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I've not ridden in Italy below the Po Valley so that is more interesting (although it looks like there will be a slog across the Po Valley between controls 2 and 3). Riding across Greece is kind of interesting. But lack of Balkans is what stops it from being a proper TCR IMHO. And having a long ferry that near the end kind of spoils the race element. I did that ferry the other way when I was a student - took about 20 hours.
I've never ridden in Italy before. I'm really looking forward to it.
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I am pleased not to have to do that long, rough descent in Romania, and deal with Romanian drivers altogether. But Italians are pretty bad for close passes.
The prospect of the Romanian bit did not instil me with joy.
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But having the start in France is clearly not a good idea - groups of 20 staggered at 30 min intervals. So if there are 300 the last group would be 7 hours behind the first! A TT-style start with 1 minute intervals would be better from a distancing point of view and only take 5 hours. Or cut it to 30 seconds and have pairs going together - get everyone off on their own in a couple of hours.
This does make sense.
Quote
Lots of gushing on Facebook from newbies who applaud anything, but I've heard of a few people thinking about giving it a miss. Chris White made an interesting suggestion - get inside the time limit without using the ferry. Looks a bit tough though, I had a quick look on the map and it seems to add 1000-1200km.
I'm clearly a newbie that will applaud anything. This route feels a lot more comfortable than the previous version. It's going to be tough, it will be a challenge, for me it will be an adventure, but it won't be gratuitously hard for the sake of it. I'm of the view that the distance is the challenge, putting in very steep, or very big, or very big and very steep hills just for the sake of it seems to defeat the purpose. That and anything you can't ride on a road bike.
Just looked at ferries and they have got quicker since the 80s. There are a few, taking from 7.5 to 16 hours
The ferries are going to be interesting, cos if you just miss one in Bari, then you could do the 100k to Brindisi and get the one from there... I like the idea of rest before the final 400k sprint to the finish. I can see the ferry equalising things a bit, with riders at the pointy end bunching, before the aforementioned sprint.
So France, Italy, then a Ferry to Greece... very civilised...
I guess it appeals to those who are not keen to be chased by packs of wild dogs or find that their credit card is laughed at in a small village in the Balkans... probably a move towards a more inclusive event... possibly aspiring to gender balance, seeing that women can not only take part, but seemingly even win
Putting aside the blatant misogyny of your statement, it's worth noting that all those riding this version signed up for a version that involved the Balkans, and Romanian gravel. So in that respect the attracting people to ride it aspect isn't there.
If last year, this route, and the original route, had been offered as a choice, I would choose the France/Italy/Greece route, it's closer to my comfort zone, whilst still being just out side of it. It's worth noting that Hungary is not a safe place for LGBT+ people to visit, and Romania is moving that way with some of it's recent moves.
Not everyone who rides the TCR is a straight white man, and this should be taken into account when choosing routes.
Hmm, not sure about that.
Dogs are as bad in Greece as anywhere, and quite bad in Italy.
Credit cards are pretty widely accepted in those small towns in the Balkans - by shops with long opening hours. In France, you struggle to find anything and, if you do, it might not be open.
Why is not going to the Balkans more inclusive...?
Credit cards worked better in Serbia and Croatia than they do in .NL... fscking maestro... That said, my big issue in Bulgaria was finding anything to eat in the first 200k of the Parcour. None of the population centres (well villages...) it passed through had any shops or cafes. I managed to buy a coke and some crisps in one village, but that was about it. People at the pointy end were through quick enough not to be a problem, I was half the speed of the pointy end, and first place to really resupply was the gas station at the end of the Parcour. The bits of Serbia and Croatia that I rode, I had no issue finding stuff to eat.
There is certainly a perception by many that the Balkans is not as safe a place to travel as Italy is if you are not a straight white man.
No, I am saying that maybe some women are put off entering TCR because it goes through countries which are not considered to be as "safe" as the Western Europe... whether that is true or not, it is a different matter.
I would not enter a race that went though Hungary.
Perception... most people who enter TCR for the first time know about France and Italy, many have been there... how many have been to the Balkans?
I've never been... it's an unknown quantity, which will attract some and put off others
I've cycled in Serbia, I've cycled in Croatia. I've not cycled in Italy, and I've only done a little bit of France...
I guess they could take a route nord for a change... finishing in Estonia... or even in Sweden if there is a way to cycle on the bridge from Denmark...
I'm not certain, but I would imagine that with Nordkap-Terrifa, going North to South, and the NC4K going South to North, another race going North seems... excessive.
Also large parts of Poland are now a no-go zone for LGBT+ persons, and as such would not be suitable as an accessible race.
I appreciate I'm a gushing newbie in all this, but I really like the new proposed route. CP3 looks brutal, but also short, a challenge without being impossible. I'm looking forward to it. It'll be an adventure. I've never cycled over mountains or through the south of France before, or in Italy.
J
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 December, 2020, 09:29:09 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ep88Qz-WwAAjDSY?format=jpg&name=large)
The CP3 parcour is going to be interesting. This is with it plotted East to West. My plan is West to East... but looking at the 3d render, I am questioning my plan... what do I prefer, carrying my bike up a steep goat track, or riding it down a steep goat track...
J
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 December, 2020, 10:18:57 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ep9JWm0W4AIbW-d?format=jpg&name=large)
J
Post by: Karla on 24 December, 2020, 01:13:39 am
I'm fairly sure the Hungary avoidance is because most of the roads ban cyclists.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 December, 2020, 01:49:29 am
Funnily enough, none of the lesbian or gay cyclists I know look distinctly lesbian or gay while riding. You're probably doing the race wrong if you stop long enough to chat up your preferred gender of local resident.
I'm fairly sure the Hungary avoidance is because most of the roads ban cyclists.
Until you're hit by a truck, end up in hospital and they deny your next of kin access because they don't recognise the relationship...
While riding they might not. But when you're sufficiently butch it can be a problem with bigots when you stop. It's not a problem while riding. It's the times you're not riding that are an issue.
Also there's more than just lesbians and gays in the LGBT+ community that ride bikes. If any trans riders want to do the TCR, it's going to be a problem in Hungary and Poland if either end up on the route.
I have a wedding ring i carry when travelling. I have a backstory of a husband back home, because actually, while stopped for food or drink, men can and do try to hit on women. You don't want to make the mistake of saying "that's lovely, but I have a wife/girlfriend waiting for me at home". I have ready the alternative. "I have a husband in .NL. his name is <redacted>, he's a doctor". It's worked the few times I've needed to use it. I have needed to use it.
I have a friend who rides bikes. She's a 1.8m tall cis woman, has a shaved head, and fits everyone's definition of Butch Dyke. She is frequently harassed using ladies toilets. Do you think she'd be safe riding in Hungary? Or Poland?
The people you know are sufficiently straight cis passing that it's not an issue, lucky sods.. Not all of us are so lucky. I'm on the Butch end of the spectrum. I live in fear of being harassed by homophobes.
Avoiding Hungary cos the roads suck is a good reason. The fact that it's not safe for some people who ride the TCR to even enter the country, is also a very good reason to avoid it.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 December, 2020, 06:45:56 am
It's a long, challenging ride, but the TCR is supposed to be an adventure, taking you to some places you've never been before, and way out of your comfort zone - and this doesn't really do that.
This route feels a lot more comfortable than the previous version ...
...it's closer to my comfort zone
Looks like we are basically saying the same thing!
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 December, 2020, 06:55:16 am
As I said before, we saw border controls spring up within Schengen pretty quickly back in March, so I'm not sure that it means much, but that's clearly the reason.
A basic principle of travel is that you are a guest in someone else's country and you have to take it on those terms, and fit in with their values, their dress codes, their laws, etc.
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 December, 2020, 07:12:20 am
The ferries are going to be interesting, cos if you just miss one in Bari, then you could do the 100k to Brindisi and get the one from there... I like the idea of rest before the final 400k sprint to the finish. I can see the ferry equalising things a bit, with riders at the pointy end bunching, before the aforementioned sprint.
The ferries are basically a lot of stress. Especially when they open up other routes, which will likely happen if the race is able to go ahead at all. Partially this is my comfort zone, in that I don't like to have to make complex decisions when riding but it's not entirely that.
Firstly you have to make a call when you make a booking. If you make the booking early, more likely to get the wrong time. Leave it late and there might not be space.
When you've made it you have a hard deadline which = stress.
How does the check-in process work? How long do you need to allow? More stress.
One approach is to throw money at the problem and make 3 or 4 bookings to be sure of the optimal crossing, but that would be expensive and not open to all riders.
What will actually happen is that a lot of riders will get their partners to do the booking for them. Mostly these are not bad people and will probably otherwise obey the rules, but this kind of complex decision creates circumstances which invite cheating into the race.
Missing a ferry in Bari and riding 6-7 hours to Brindisi is unlikely to be a winning strategy.
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 December, 2020, 07:31:46 am
The CP3 parcour is going to be interesting. This is with it plotted East to West. My plan is West to East... but looking at the 3d render, I am questioning my plan... what do I prefer, carrying my bike up a steep goat track, or riding it down a steep goat track...
J
I'm not a fan of the big off-road sections.
Again, I accept that it is partly my comfort zone. I appreciate that they are very pretty (especially if you get there in daylight) and they are, in principle, a good test of bike handling skills, but I think there are serious safety issues with them.
They are great for someone who knows what they are doing to ride on a mountain bike, on a sunny day. But there will be lots of people with little off-road experience riding them on the wrong bikes with the wrong tyres, with luggage which impairs bike handling who will be going up regardless of the weather and time of day but with inadequate clothing if the weather turns bad - as it does at 2750m - especially at night. With a high col on road, you can get back down to safety if the weather closes in, but on one of these you are stuck.
FWIW these sections were not part of the race when Mike ran it, other than the Strada dell'Assietta in 2015, which he put in because Ultan Coyle was riding a TT bike. When I did it in 2016 it was possible to ride entirely on tarmac.
Post by: Ivo on 24 December, 2020, 08:39:51 am
The CP3 parcour is going to be interesting. This is with it plotted East to West. My plan is West to East... but looking at the 3d render, I am questioning my plan... what do I prefer, carrying my bike up a steep goat track, or riding it down a steep goat track...
J
I'm not a fan of the big off-road sections.
Again, I accept that it is partly my comfort zone. I appreciate that they are very pretty (especially if you get there in daylight) and they are, in principle, a good test of bike handling skills, but I think there are serious safety issues with them.
They are great for someone who knows what they are doing to ride on a mountain bike, on a sunny day. But there will be lots of people with little off-road experience riding them on the wrong bikes with the wrong tyres, with luggage which impairs bike handling who will be going up regardless of the weather and time of day but with inadequate clothing if the weather turns bad - as it does at 2750m - especially at night. With a high col on road, you can get back down to safety if the weather closes in, but on one of these you are stuck.
FWIW these sections were not part of the race when Mike ran it, other than the Strada dell'Assietta in 2015, which he put in because Ultan Coyle was riding a TT bike. When I did it in 2016 it was possible to ride entirely on tarmac.
Regarding these concerns, I was more concerned with the location of controls in the past years, the one on top of the Transfagarasan, leading to riders riding over the bear infested northern slopes during ear dinner time and the one forcing riders to ride through landmine infested parts of Croatia. After both those years I have my doubts about the TCR's safety concept.
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 December, 2020, 09:32:07 am
Regarding these concerns, I was more concerned with the location of controls in the past years, the one on top of the Transfagarasan, leading to riders riding over the bear infested northern slopes during ear dinner time and the one forcing riders to ride through landmine infested parts of Croatia. After both those years I have my doubts about the TCR's safety concept.
This year plan A was to use the Transalpina pass with an all off-road descent, so all of the mountain track risk + bears + Romanian rather than Italian emergency back up if things go wrong! I really wasn't keen on that.
I rode through Croatia in 2016: Otocac, Vrhovine and on to Bihac in Bosnia. It was a shock to see burnt out houses and bullet holes in buildings in the town centres, but I didn't feel there was special danger in what I was doing. The route was all on roads. I certainly didn't go wandering off the road into fields or on tracks. I know you have personal experience of the Balkan war zones so your perspective is extremely relevant. Was I missing something?
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 24 December, 2020, 09:34:58 am
+ Romanian rather than Italian emergency back up if things go wrong! I really wasn't keen on that.
SO if I say that the Balkans are (perceived to be) less safe than France and Italy, I am wrong all along, but then you say the same... how does that work? ???
Post by: Ivo on 24 December, 2020, 10:26:29 am
Regarding these concerns, I was more concerned with the location of controls in the past years, the one on top of the Transfagarasan, leading to riders riding over the bear infested northern slopes during ear dinner time and the one forcing riders to ride through landmine infested parts of Croatia. After both those years I have my doubts about the TCR's safety concept.
This year plan A was to use the Transalpina pass with an all off-road descent, so all of the mountain track risk + bears + Romanian rather than Italian emergency back up if things go wrong! I really wasn't keen on that.
I rode through Croatia in 2016: Otocac, Vrhovine and on to Bihac in Bosnia. It was a shock to see burnt out houses and bullet holes in buildings in the town centres, but I didn't feel there was special danger in what I was doing. The route was all on roads. I certainly didn't go wandering off the road into fields or on tracks. I know you have personal experience of the Balkan war zones so your perspective is extremely relevant. Was I missing something?
The combination of people of a generation who don't have in depth knowledge of the area and the habit of sleeping in ditches and abandoned houses combined with (sometimes poorly marked) minefields and booby trapped houses. You knew so you didn't go wandering off the road but I know from the reports that many TCR riders do that in search of a sleeping spot. Actually I was a bit scared of that as a dot watcher in that edition. I did comment on online reports if someone was wandering off into an area with a lot of minefields.
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 December, 2020, 11:02:34 am
+ Romanian rather than Italian emergency back up if things go wrong! I really wasn't keen on that.
SO if I say that the Balkans are (perceived to be) less safe than France and Italy, I am wrong all along, but then you say the same... how does that work? ???
Different context. I'm talking about mountain rescue services. You were taking about how safe the country is to visit for travellers. Also you were talking about different countries, were you not? That bit of discussion was about Ex-yugoslavia.
Romania is less pleasant to cycle in than those. But Italy is nearly as bad!
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 December, 2020, 11:04:05 am
Regarding these concerns, I was more concerned with the location of controls in the past years, the one on top of the Transfagarasan, leading to riders riding over the bear infested northern slopes during ear dinner time and the one forcing riders to ride through landmine infested parts of Croatia. After both those years I have my doubts about the TCR's safety concept.
This year plan A was to use the Transalpina pass with an all off-road descent, so all of the mountain track risk + bears + Romanian rather than Italian emergency back up if things go wrong! I really wasn't keen on that.
I rode through Croatia in 2016: Otocac, Vrhovine and on to Bihac in Bosnia. It was a shock to see burnt out houses and bullet holes in buildings in the town centres, but I didn't feel there was special danger in what I was doing. The route was all on roads. I certainly didn't go wandering off the road into fields or on tracks. I know you have personal experience of the Balkan war zones so your perspective is extremely relevant. Was I missing something?
The combination of people of a generation who don't have in depth knowledge of the area and the habit of sleeping in ditches and abandoned houses combined with (sometimes poorly marked) minefields and booby trapped houses. You knew so you didn't go wandering off the road but I know from the reports that many TCR riders do that in search of a sleeping spot. Actually I was a bit scared of that as a dot watcher in that edition. I did comment on online reports if someone was wandering off into an area with a lot of minefields.
Thanks. Good point. They could have warned more explicitly about those risks.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 December, 2020, 11:30:54 am
Looks like we are basically saying the same thing!
It is entirely plausible that we are both in violent* agreement.
Regarding Hungary, it has been on TCR routes in recent years and there is guidance on routing in the country in the manual so it is clear there is no veto on going there. The reason they haven't routed there is that Romania is not in Schengen - so there would be border controls wherever you went to the south.
As I said before, we saw border controls spring up within Schengen pretty quickly back in March, so I'm not sure that it means much, but that's clearly the reason.
A basic principle of travel is that you are a guest in someone else's country and you have to take it on those terms, and fit in with their values, their dress codes, their laws, etc.
Yes, however the rules and laws in Hungary have changed since it was last on the route of the TCR. Part of being a guest in another's country is not turning up where you're unwanted... I would not do a TCR if it went through Hungary.
The ferries are basically a lot of stress. Especially when they open up other routes, which will likely happen if the race is able to go ahead at all. Partially this is my comfort zone, in that I don't like to have to make complex decisions when riding but it's not entirely that.
Firstly you have to make a call when you make a booking. If you make the booking early, more likely to get the wrong time. Leave it late and there might not be space.
When you've made it you have a hard deadline which = stress.
How does the check-in process work? How long do you need to allow? More stress.
One approach is to throw money at the problem and make 3 or 4 bookings to be sure of the optimal crossing, but that would be expensive and not open to all riders.
What will actually happen is that a lot of riders will get their partners to do the booking for them. Mostly these are not bad people and will probably otherwise obey the rules, but this kind of complex decision creates circumstances which invite cheating into the race.
Missing a ferry in Bari and riding 6-7 hours to Brindisi is unlikely to be a winning strategy.
Agreed, the ferries are regular, but I wonder how much capacity they run at. I've used them in the past on my way to Krete, but I did so booking in advance. It's going to be an interesting element.
A brief search on greece-ferries.com shows that there are two a day from Bari to Igoumenitsa, but they are only 30 minutes apart in the evening. So missing a ferry would mean upto a 24 hour wait for the next departure. Where as from Brindisi there are two a day, at 1300 and 2100. Obviously this may change nearer the time, it may be the timetables aren't finalised. But if you miss the 2000 from Bari, then getting to Brindisi for 1300 the next day seems distinctly plausible. You'll arrive in Greece about the same time you'd be leaving Bari if you waited...
It could be tho that you get to Bari after say 0500, you're unlikely to make it to Brindisi for the 1300 sailing. So is it worth continuing for the 2100? or get a hotel room for the day, and rest, eat, etc...
A lot of very stiff, but well rested cyclists are going to roll off the ferry in Greece...
I'm not a fan of the big off-road sections.
I think on this we are in agreement.
Quote
Again, I accept that it is partly my comfort zone. I appreciate that they are very pretty (especially if you get there in daylight) and they are, in principle, a good test of bike handling skills, but I think there are serious safety issues with them.
They are great for someone who knows what they are doing to ride on a mountain bike, on a sunny day. But there will be lots of people with little off-road experience riding them on the wrong bikes with the wrong tyres, with luggage which impairs bike handling who will be going up regardless of the weather and time of day but with inadequate clothing if the weather turns bad - as it does at 2750m - especially at night. With a high col on road, you can get back down to safety if the weather closes in, but on one of these you are stuck.
FWIW these sections were not part of the race when Mike ran it, other than the Strada dell'Assietta in 2015, which he put in because Ultan Coyle was riding a TT bike. When I did it in 2016 it was possible to ride entirely on tarmac.
The Strada dell'Assietta is classed as gravel, but it's very different from the gravel sections that were in the Balkans on the last two editions. You can take a pro tour pelaton along the white roads. You wouldn't do that on either of the recent Balkan sections. At least one rider in 2018 took his tracker off the bike, walked up the parcours, and then reattached the tracker before continuing, that should never be the preferred option... I do feel that the route should be safe to ride for anyone on a road bike. In that respect CP3 is a little bit outside that. But in the grand scheme of things, it's only 16km, so I'll largely swear at the mountains and hope. But I have some knowledge and experience of being on foot in mountains like these (just not with a laden bike). One thing I will be adding to my pack tho is a compass. The free section near the summit, I will feel more comfortable with a compass, but that's me. I am pretty certain I am going to do the route west to east. I think I want to climb up those switch backs, not try and ride down them. Esp as I'll be on GP5k tyres... That also means that the descent at the other end is on tarmac. I don't know if this will be quicker, but I think it will be safer.
I notice there is an Alpine hut at the western end of the route. There are also two drinking water sources on the parcour, and one at the western end.
J
* for values of violent
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 24 December, 2020, 02:58:03 pm
But Italy is nearly as bad!
I've lived in Italy for 27 years and I strongly disagree with your statement...
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 December, 2020, 03:52:01 pm
I'm sure there are lots of great back roads in Italy but, outside the parcours most riders won't be on those roads.
My experience is mainly riding along the Po Valley in 2016, from Bergamo and on to the Slovenian border. Lots of close passes - which is what every other TCR rider has reported from that strip.
For this reason one of the main objectives in designing TCR routes in the last few years has been to avoid the Po Valley - but it hasn't worked this time as most people will go that way from CP2-3. And I fear the coast rode down through Rimini and Ancona will be similar - although would be good if its not.
Maybe they will ban certain roads to force people to take other routes...
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 24 December, 2020, 04:28:42 pm
Good to hear!
I'm sure there are lots of great back roads in Italy but, outside the parcours most riders won't be on those roads.
My experience is mainly riding along the Po Valley in 2016, from Bergamo and on to the Slovenian border. Lots of close passes - which is what every other TCR rider has reported from that strip.
For this reason one of the main objectives in designing TCR routes in the last few years has been to avoid the Po Valley - but it hasn't worked this time as most people will go that way from CP2-3. And I fear the coast rode down through Rimini and Ancona will be similar - although would be good if its not.
Maybe they will ban certain roads to force people to take other routes...
SS roads are the same as the main A roads in Britain... SP roads are more like secondary A or B... if you stick to SS roads, you are going to get the same treatment whether you are in France (N roads), Italy, UK or wherever. It's down to the organiser to come up with sensible routes that naturally avoid the busy roads... nothing wrong with Italy as such... the Po valley is the most boring area to cycle, it's also the fastest A to B... I wouldn't think routing an "adventure race" such as TCR along the Po valley adds much to the race...
Post by: Karla on 24 December, 2020, 04:31:25 pm
Regarding these concerns, I was more concerned with the location of controls in the past years, the one on top of the Transfagarasan, leading to riders riding over the bear infested northern slopes during ear dinner time and the one forcing riders to ride through landmine infested parts of Croatia. After both those years I have my doubts about the TCR's safety concept.
This year plan A was to use the Transalpina pass with an all off-road descent, so all of the mountain track risk + bears + Romanian rather than Italian emergency back up if things go wrong! I really wasn't keen on that.
I rode through Croatia in 2016: Otocac, Vrhovine and on to Bihac in Bosnia. It was a shock to see burnt out houses and bullet holes in buildings in the town centres, but I didn't feel there was special danger in what I was doing. The route was all on roads. I certainly didn't go wandering off the road into fields or on tracks. I know you have personal experience of the Balkan war zones so your perspective is extremely relevant. Was I missing something?
The combination of people of a generation who don't have in depth knowledge of the area and the habit of sleeping in ditches and abandoned houses combined with (sometimes poorly marked) minefields and booby trapped houses. You knew so you didn't go wandering off the road but I know from the reports that many TCR riders do that in search of a sleeping spot. Actually I was a bit scared of that as a dot watcher in that edition. I did comment on online reports if someone was wandering off into an area with a lot of minefields.
I was in single figures for most of the fighting in the Yugoslav wars, but was amply aware of the landmines before any of the times I toured round there.
If someone enters an adventure race across an entire continent, but isn't aware of some fairly recent and protracted fighting in a large region of that continent and of the problems stemming from that, and doesn't learn pretty fast when they see the bombed out buildings and roadside memorials that still litter the region, then that person is probably beyond help.
You don't want to go to Hungary, you don't have to go to Hungary. Thanks for presuming on my safety though, you might want to do less of that in the future.Regarding Hungary, it has been on TCR routes in recent years and there is guidance on routing in the country in the manual so it is clear there is no veto on going there. The reason they haven't routed there is that Romania is not in Schengen - so there would be border controls wherever you went to the south.
As I said before, we saw border controls spring up within Schengen pretty quickly back in March, so I'm not sure that it means much, but that's clearly the reason.
A basic principle of travel is that you are a guest in someone else's country and you have to take it on those terms, and fit in with their values, their dress codes, their laws, etc.
Yes, however the rules and laws in Hungary have changed since it was last on the route of the TCR. Part of being a guest in another's country is not turning up where you're unwanted... I would not do a TCR if it went through Hungary.
Post by: mattc on 24 December, 2020, 07:33:02 pm
They do seem like genuine negatives to the ferry issue!
The ferries are going to be interesting, cos if you just miss one in Bari, then you could do the 100k to Brindisi and get the one from there... I like the idea of rest before the final 400k sprint to the finish. I can see the ferry equalising things a bit, with riders at the pointy end bunching, before the aforementioned sprint.
The ferries are basically a lot of stress. Especially when they open up other routes, which will likely happen if the race is able to go ahead at all. Partially this is my comfort zone, in that I don't like to have to make complex decisions when riding but it's not entirely that.
Firstly you have to make a call when you make a booking. If you make the booking early, more likely to get the wrong time. Leave it late and there might not be space.
When you've made it you have a hard deadline which = stress.
How does the check-in process work? How long do you need to allow? More stress.
One approach is to throw money at the problem and make 3 or 4 bookings to be sure of the optimal crossing, but that would be expensive and not open to all riders.
What will actually happen is that a lot of riders will get their partners to do the booking for them. Mostly these are not bad people and will probably otherwise obey the rules, but this kind of complex decision creates circumstances which invite cheating into the race.
Missing a ferry in Bari and riding 6-7 hours to Brindisi is unlikely to be a winning strategy.
But wasn't much the same crossing a feature of the early races? Did these problems manifest back then?
(As a spectator I found the ferry options really cool! And I loved the ferries on Blacksheep's Scottish Audax as a rider, but that was a very different scenario.)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 December, 2020, 08:15:09 pm
The Strada dell'Assietta is classed as gravel, but it's very different from the gravel sections that were in the Balkans on the last two editions. You can take a pro tour pelaton along the white roads. You wouldn't do that on either of the recent Balkan sections. At least one rider in 2018 took his tracker off the bike, walked up the parcours, and then reattached the tracker before continuing, that should never be the preferred option...I'm puzzled by this. Why remove the tracker? Surely it records the same whether it's on the bike or in your pocket/luggage?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 December, 2020, 08:41:22 pm
The Strada dell'Assietta is classed as gravel, but it's very different from the gravel sections that were in the Balkans on the last two editions. You can take a pro tour pelaton along the white roads. You wouldn't do that on either of the recent Balkan sections. At least one rider in 2018 took his tracker off the bike, walked up the parcours, and then reattached the tracker before continuing, that should never be the preferred option...I'm puzzled by this. Why remove the tracker? Surely it records the same whether it's on the bike or in your pocket/luggage?
They left the bike at the bottom, they just walked up and back down again.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 December, 2020, 09:01:09 pm
But wasn't much the same crossing a feature of the early races? Did these problems manifest back then?
I've not heard anyone speak about it but there were some differences in that:
- the channel ferries in the first two races were soon after the start so people could predict their arrivals fairly reliably, and would be less tired when making decisions.
- the Ancona-Split ferry on the second and third editions were both people doing a bit of lateral thinking and gaining an advantage from essentially a short cut (more in the second than the third). I think in both cases it was just a few riders.
There was a ferry in the original / 2020 route, across the Danube, and not that far from the finish.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 24 December, 2020, 09:16:14 pm
Ah. Okay. This makes me feel better about every hill I've ever walked, seeing as I've never been racing any of them!The Strada dell'Assietta is classed as gravel, but it's very different from the gravel sections that were in the Balkans on the last two editions. You can take a pro tour pelaton along the white roads. You wouldn't do that on either of the recent Balkan sections. At least one rider in 2018 took his tracker off the bike, walked up the parcours, and then reattached the tracker before continuing, that should never be the preferred option...I'm puzzled by this. Why remove the tracker? Surely it records the same whether it's on the bike or in your pocket/luggage?
They left the bike at the bottom, they just walked up and back down again.
J
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 December, 2020, 09:23:32 pm
Ah. Okay. This makes me feel better about every hill I've ever walked, seeing as I've never been racing any of them!
On RatN 2019 I walked every single hill in Limburg.
J
Post by: morbihan on 27 December, 2020, 02:42:40 pm
Im with QG on this. More than enough adventure to be had.
Drilling into a first draught of the route there are some mouth watering iconic places/climbs popping up.
Im also not familiar, like QG, with riding in Italy beyond the Alps & Dolomites (aside from one organised cycle tour to Florence & Tuscany)
Much of the climbing that was lost when the race was moved away from the Balkans seems to have be gained back when travelling down the spine of Italy.
Im also a little concerned about the traffic, particularly on the Po valley after some negative experiences on TCRno5 and will try to mitigate that where possible.
From a selfish point of view Im really happy that the start has remained in Brest. Our place is a couple of hours down the coast in Southern Brittany (assuming we can get there!) With the previous TCR's we drove across from there to the start in Belgium. This time it will be a similar route but on a bike from the start to Roubaix.
Happy route planning.
Post by: Frank9755 on 13 January, 2021, 03:17:55 pm
I think you need to be really excited about these events in order to get round them. I'm not, so better to free up the place for someone who is really up for it.
Best of luck to those who are riding.
Post by: morbihan on 16 January, 2021, 07:27:22 pm
I've decided to withdraw.
I think you need to be really excited about these events in order to get round them. I'm not, so better to free up the place for someone who is really up for it.
Best of luck to those who are riding.
Thats a shame Frank. I was hoping that we would finally meet. Another time!
I confirmed this morning so all being well, look forward to a couple of weeks of (mis)adventure.
Good call to let the organisers know in time. I imagine Anna will open up some new slots if, like yourself, more than a few entrants take a pass this year.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 January, 2021, 12:02:51 pm
I just confirmed my place.
J
Post by: Lightning Phil on 17 January, 2021, 12:29:32 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 January, 2021, 12:55:18 pm
Excellent. Look forward to seeing how you get on.
Thanks. I'm feeling more comfortable about this route, and better prepared. I now have a coach, who is an experienced ultra racer and is helping me with my training. It's going well so far.
Need to make a couple of changes to the bike (upgrade to hydraulic brakes), and buy a new down jacket. Else kit wise I'm ready. Just need to build fitness, and finesse my route.
J
Post by: morbihan on 17 January, 2021, 02:13:51 pm
Multiple loops of the Rock here through to the Summer.
Getting away to France for a tour looks decidedly tricky with the current pandemic so will just have to suck it up.
Taxc bike on order so may be able to rig up some virtual mountain passes on the TV for a bit of variety!
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 January, 2021, 02:21:55 pm
Cheers.
Multiple loops of the Rock here through to the Summer.
Getting away to France for a tour looks decidedly tricky with the current pandemic so will just have to suck it up.
Taxc bike on order so may be able to rig up some virtual mountain passes on the TV for a bit of variety!
I'm hoping that as things ease a bit here I can have the occasional weekend in Limburg to experience something hilly...
J
Post by: morbihan on 17 January, 2021, 03:22:40 pm
Cheers.
Multiple loops of the Rock here through to the Summer.
Getting away to France for a tour looks decidedly tricky with the current pandemic so will just have to suck it up.
Taxc bike on order so may be able to rig up some virtual mountain passes on the TV for a bit of variety!
I'm hoping that as things ease a bit here I can have the occasional weekend in Limburg to experience something hilly...
J
(Googles Limburg)
Ah yes day one of TCRno5. Cutting across the bottom of "Flat" Holland en route to the Rhine. Just East of Maastricht. "What the heck this is hilly AF!" Passed an Amstel Gold banner somewhere along the way there abouts. That will be a good spot to get some ups in for sure.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 January, 2021, 05:46:41 pm
(Googles Limburg)
Ah yes day one of TCRno5. Cutting across the bottom of "Flat" Holland en route to the Rhine. Just East of Maastricht. "What the heck this is hilly AF!" Passed an Amstel Gold banner somewhere along the way there abouts. That will be a good spot to get some ups in for sure.
I remember dot watching that, as all these dots headed for the Rhine, and thinking "Has noone heard of the Ardennes?" That area is lumpy!
I have a few routes planned for such things as Signal 3 ways:
https://www.strava.com/routes/15790729
Three times up the highest point in Belgium, from the three different sides. It's the biggest climb that isn't too far away. It's not quite the 2000+m passes that we're going to need to do, but it's a start.
This route is 1500m of climbing, in 100km of Limburg. I think I can do it a day including train too/from Ams:
https://www.strava.com/routes/2768987201649032028
Closer to home I have a couple of routes ready to go once we're allowed to move again, 50km and 100km of the same basic hill, only an hour or so by train from home:
https://www.strava.com/routes/2770453097311889426
https://www.strava.com/routes/2768984576381740978
Closer to home, this is 900m of climbing and just 30 mins away by train:
https://www.strava.com/routes/2768986031791470540
But I can't do much with any of them until lockdown eases a bit.
The closest thing I have to a hill nearby is this route:
https://www.strava.com/routes/10586184
I use the word Hill loosely...
J
Post by: slugbait on 17 January, 2021, 05:58:32 pm
This route is 1500m of climbing, in 100km of Limburg. I think I can do it a day including train too/from Ams:
https://www.strava.com/routes/2768987201649032028
If the aim is to maximize elevation/distance and you don't mind doing loops: up Cauberg and down Daalhemmerweg. 90m of climbing in 5km (or 1800m in 100km). Otherwise loop 2 of Amstel Gold Race, where you switch to loop 3 in Eys, is also an excellent training route.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 January, 2021, 06:02:10 pm
If the aim is to maximize elevation/distance and you don't mind doing loops: up Cauberg and down Daalhemmerweg. 90m of climbing in 5km (or 1800m in 100km). Otherwise loop 2 of Amstel Gold Race, where you switch to loop 3 in Eys, is also an excellent training route.
I was trying to avoid short loops, esp of the same hill. Otherwise I may as well try everesting... and that's just crazy talk. (Someone has Everested Kopje van Bloemendaal..!?!?!)
Do you have a route for what you call loop 2 and loop 3? I'm not familiar with the Amstel Gold route.
J
Post by: Karla on 17 January, 2021, 10:19:48 pm
I wouldn't want to do an event this big unless I could give it my all. Last year I was prepared to focus on it and junk the rest of the season, but this year I've developed other goals, and the new route and race format just isn't inspiring me to lay everything else aside.
Post by: Ivo on 17 January, 2021, 10:54:33 pm
Post by: slugbait on 18 January, 2021, 07:25:26 am
Do you have a route for what you call loop 2 and loop 3? I'm not familiar with the Amstel Gold route.
It is signposted, but this is comes close to what I meant: https://climbfinder.com/nl/routes/amstel-gold-race
(And Kopje van Bloemendaal has been everested: https://www.nhnieuws.nl/nieuws/270039/jacco-heeft-zijn-doel-bereikt-263-keer-het-kopje-op-fietsen)
Post by: morbihan on 18 January, 2021, 01:16:04 pm
I've withdrawn.
I wouldn't want to do an event this big unless I could give it my all. Last year I was prepared to focus on it and junk the rest of the season, but this year I've developed other goals, and the new route and race format just isn't inspiring me to lay everything else aside.
Sorry to hear Karla. Bets of luck with the other goals.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 19 January, 2021, 05:41:17 pm
Post by: Davef on 19 January, 2021, 09:36:03 pm
You could simulate steeper hills with panniers full of rocks.(Googles Limburg)
Ah yes day one of TCRno5. Cutting across the bottom of "Flat" Holland en route to the Rhine. Just East of Maastricht. "What the heck this is hilly AF!" Passed an Amstel Gold banner somewhere along the way there abouts. That will be a good spot to get some ups in for sure.
I remember dot watching that, as all these dots headed for the Rhine, and thinking "Has noone heard of the Ardennes?" That area is lumpy!
I have a few routes planned for such things as Signal 3 ways:
https://www.strava.com/routes/15790729
Three times up the highest point in Belgium, from the three different sides. It's the biggest climb that isn't too far away. It's not quite the 2000+m passes that we're going to need to do, but it's a start.
This route is 1500m of climbing, in 100km of Limburg. I think I can do it a day including train too/from Ams:
https://www.strava.com/routes/2768987201649032028
Closer to home I have a couple of routes ready to go once we're allowed to move again, 50km and 100km of the same basic hill, only an hour or so by train from home:
https://www.strava.com/routes/2770453097311889426
https://www.strava.com/routes/2768984576381740978
Closer to home, this is 900m of climbing and just 30 mins away by train:
https://www.strava.com/routes/2768986031791470540
But I can't do much with any of them until lockdown eases a bit.
The closest thing I have to a hill nearby is this route:
https://www.strava.com/routes/10586184
I use the word Hill loosely...
J
Post by: quixoticgeek on 19 January, 2021, 11:17:55 pm
You could simulate steeper hills with panniers full of rocks.
That would involve fitting panniers... And a rack...
J
Post by: Davef on 20 January, 2021, 05:55:51 am
The alternative would be to make a template then cast a “full frame bike packing bag” in concrete for a budget version, or cut from plywood with spaces for cast iron weight lifting weights.
You could simulate steeper hills with panniers full of rocks.
That would involve fitting panniers... And a rack...
J
Post by: mattc on 23 January, 2021, 12:33:07 pm
Post by: Lightning Phil on 23 January, 2021, 12:43:29 pm
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 24 January, 2021, 08:35:40 am
The thing with a climb, is that you can't get away by pushing 2 W/Kg... you simply won't go up... so you need to up your game. It is perfectly possible to push harder on the flat. If you need to simulate an half an hour climb, then push harder for half an hour
Post by: Davef on 24 January, 2021, 08:58:14 am
Just work harder... you don't need contraptions to simulate a climb.Don’t be silly, of course you can go up hills at 2W/kg. You just go up at half the speed of 4W/kg, so perhaps doing 10km/h compared to someone else doing 20km/h.
The thing with a climb, is that you can't get away by pushing 2 W/Kg... you simply won't go up... so you need to up your game. It is perfectly possible to push harder on the flat. If you need to simulate an half an hour climb, then push harder for half an hour
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 24 January, 2021, 09:42:46 am
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 January, 2021, 09:47:46 am
Just work harder... you don't need contraptions to simulate a climb.Don’t be silly, of course you can go up hills at 2W/kg. You just go up at half the speed of 4W/kg, so perhaps doing 10km/h compared to someone else doing 20km/h.
The thing with a climb, is that you can't get away by pushing 2 W/Kg... you simply won't go up... so you need to up your game. It is perfectly possible to push harder on the flat. If you need to simulate an half an hour climb, then push harder for half an hour
It depends on the hill. 2w/kg for a 70kg person is 140w. A 70kg rider on a 15kg bike, going up a 5% hill at 10.7kph is 150w.
Up that gradient to 10% is 5.44kph at 140w.
Except. last time I did an FTP test it was about 120w. And I am a long way off 70kg.
For my weight, at 140w, on a 10% incline the speed would be 4.04kph. My lowest gear is 28:40, which at 50rpm, is 4.5kph. Even if I did have 2w/kg at my current weight, that 10% hill would be done at 5.75kph. Which at least is a better cadence of somewhere between 60 and 65 rpm...
To bring this to my standard rant that stock bikes gearing is too high, a 34:34 gear, at 50RPM is 6.4kph. Which on that 10% hill, would require 223w at my current weight, and 165w at 70kg... a 30:34 GRX setup would be 147w at 70kg, and 5.7kph (50 rpm).
Obviously these numbers don't take every single thing into account, but they give a rough indication of the power involved. I'd like to have an ftp of 2w/kg. But as yet, I'm not there. Not even 1.5w/kg. Maybe that will improve as I lose weight. And as my Coach's inputs start to reap benefits.
My current training for hills involves a lot of headwind work. Tho today I am going to go ride up and down the Kopje a few times...
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 January, 2021, 10:18:59 am
When I was riding the TCR in 2016, by the time I got to the alps, I was riding on the flat and up modest climbs at around 100W. The first steep climb, the Grosse Scheidegg in the afternoon of day 4, forced me out of my comfort zone - I had to go up it at 120W. I probably did similar up the Giau two nights later. And I came 33rd out of about 105 finishers.
Of course, you need a lot more power to be at the sharp end. James Hayden shouted a greeting as he passed me as I was packing away my shopping outside a supermarket just before the start of the Grosse Scheidegg. He had had a day out at the first checkpoint with a chest infection and was now storming back through the field. He got through the parcours in about half the time that it took me. I would guess he probably did the GS climb at something around 350W (his data is public so it will be in his Strava) - but that is not typical of most riders.
It is surprising how slow you can go on a bike when going faster is not possible.
Post by: Davef on 24 January, 2021, 10:19:09 am
Many TCR folk put out quite a bit less than 200 watts a few days into a long race. Put a tired 100kg me (including bike) putting out not much over 100 watts on a >10% grade and I am down to about 3km/h. It is hard to balance at that speed, particularly in a gusty headwind.Looking at my PBP 2019 I was 68 hours elapsed start to finish (including sleep and other stops) and according to strava I was averaging 101W and at just shy of 90kg that is about 1.1w/kg.
If what is being discussed is ftp then that is a different matter. You obviously don’t want to be having to go anywhere near ftp on a long event.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 24 January, 2021, 10:28:00 am
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 January, 2021, 11:00:26 am
Most people don't realise how little power you need to ride reasonably well over a long distance. Here are my figures.
Agreed.
Quote
When I was riding the TCR in 2016, by the time I got to the alps, I was riding on the flat and up modest climbs at around 100W. The first steep climb, the Grosse Scheidegg in the afternoon of day 4, forced me out of my comfort zone - I had to go up it at 120W. I probably did similar up the Giau two nights later. And I came 33rd out of about 105 finishers.
How much did you weigh tho? how fast were you going up the climbs? A lot of it also depends on the gradient. The Italian Parcour in TCRNo7 had some 30% gradients, I don't know how many people actually rode up that bit.
Quote
Of course, you need a lot more power to be at the sharp end. James Hayden shouted a greeting as he passed me as I was packing away my shopping outside a supermarket just before the start of the Grosse Scheidegg. He had had a day out at the first checkpoint with a chest infection and was now storming back through the field. He got through the parcours in about half the time that it took me. I would guess he probably did the GS climb at something around 350W (his data is public so it will be in his Strava) - but that is not typical of most riders.
It is surprising how slow you can go on a bike when going faster is not possible.
Yep, I completed RatN2019 by not sleeping much, rather than going quick. I still walked every hill in Limberg as I had no power left.
Looking at my PBP 2019 I was 68 hours elapsed start to finish (including sleep and other stops) and according to strava I was averaging 101W and at just shy of 90kg that is about 1.1w/kg.
If what is being discussed is ftp then that is a different matter. You obviously don’t want to be having to go anywhere near ftp on a long event.
Remind me, how many 1300m ascents are there on PBP?
The CP2 parcours has a 1300m height difference between start and highest point. It does that over 27km. Which if I understand my maths is an average gradient of 4.8%. If I'm doing 5kph (which sounds about right given fuck all power numbers such as Frank suggests, and being 2000km into the event, means doing it for over 5 hours.
When an effort is that long, then FTP does come into it, as by definition you're basically doing your FTP. For hours on end. If your FTP is low that is. Frank may have an FTP of 350w*, and may do this climb at 120w. That's about 1/3rd of his ftp pre race. If mine is 120w, and I do that climb at 1/3rd of my pre ride FTP, then that's 40w...
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
This is why Frank rightly persuaded me to remove the usb-werk from my bike. Because the ~7w it uses to charge my battery pack up, is a significant proportion of the little power I currently have. That 5w reduction (Dyno hub is still going to have 2w resistance when off), is relevant when your power is so damn low.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ep9JWm0W4AIbW-d?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
I'm not sure how to ride up a 72% incline... I'm guessing I'll walk that bit...
That's veloviewer's take on CP3. I think there are some mapping errors in there.
J
* Apologies if this is insultingly low. It's based on the number I've seen a couple of other TCR riders produce in recent FTP tests they put out on twitter.
Post by: Davef on 24 January, 2021, 11:34:14 am
When an effort is that long, then FTP does come into it, as by definition you're basically doing your FTP. For hours on end.I thought the definition of ftp as the maximum power you can sustain for 1 hour and no more. So I don’t think you will be doing your ftp for hours on end.
Post by: Davef on 24 January, 2021, 11:59:39 am
Edit - re : 1300m of ascent, 5 hours is optimistic.When an effort is that long, then FTP does come into it, as by definition you're basically doing your FTP. For hours on end.I thought the definition of ftp as the maximum power you can sustain for 1 hour and no more. So I don’t think you will be doing your ftp for hours on end.
Re: 72% surely an error, that is roping up territory.
Edit again. 100% means 45 degrees, so maybe overly cautious with the roping up comment.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 24 January, 2021, 12:14:27 pm
Post by: grams on 24 January, 2021, 01:17:46 pm
When an effort is that long, then FTP does come into it, as by definition you're basically doing your FTP. For hours on end. If your FTP is low that is. Frank may have an FTP of 350w*, and may do this climb at 120w. That's about 1/3rd of his ftp pre race. If mine is 120w, and I do that climb at 1/3rd of my pre ride FTP, then that's 40w...
I'd expect very high FTPs to be much less sustainable than more mundane ones, so the ratios won't be constant. I think my numbers are something like 180 vs 90.
You'd do well to invest in a power meter if you want to keep track of this stuff.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 24 January, 2021, 01:26:11 pm
It depends on the hill. 2w/kg for a 70kg person is 140w. A 70kg rider on a 15kg bike, going up a 5% hill at 10.7kph is 150w.
Up that gradient to 10% is 5.44kph at 140w.
Except. last time I did an FTP test it was about 120w. And I am a long way off 70kg.
Given those numbers, it seems to me you would be better off prioritising losing weight, over doing hill training at this stage. There is a long way to go between now and TCR, and if you can lose a kg a week between now and April, then you will be in a much better place to train effectively, with still plenty of time to do things properly.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 24 January, 2021, 01:58:42 pm
Don’t be silly, of course you can go up hills at 2W/kg. You just go up at half the speed of 4W/kg, so perhaps doing 10km/h compared to someone else doing 20km/h.
I don't quite recognise your numbers... I do hill climb races, typically anything between 5.5 and 6.5 W/kg depending on the length (2-10 minute climbs). The only race where i climbed at over 20 km/h was Walbury hill, it probably averages 6%...
At 2W/Kg you'll struggle to keep balance on anything over 7-8%
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 January, 2021, 03:12:13 pm
At 2W/Kg you'll struggle to keep balance on anything over 7-8%
Rubbish! It's very hard to fall off a bike from going too slowly.
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 January, 2021, 03:31:48 pm
How much did you weigh tho? how fast were you going up the climbs? A lot of it also depends on the gradient. The Italian Parcour in TCRNo7 had some 30% gradients, I don't know how many people actually rode up that bit.
... Apologies if this is insultingly low.
I was about 72kg and went slowly up the climbs. The reason I was doing 120W rather than 100 is because I needed to put in a bit more effort to keep moving and stay on. Lots of climbs might include some short ramps that are very steep but the duration is important. The Grosse Scheidegg and Giau both had about 10km at slightly under 10%. They are steep climbs, but not stupid.
The hardest thing I have ridden up is Hardknott. It has two short sections which are 30% but the average is 14%. It is in the UK so it isn't very long, maybe 3km. I don't know if the TCR one was like that. If it was, I would have certainly been walking. When Mike was running the TCR, everything was rideable - it didn't have the crazy parcours which have now become a feature.
My FTP at the time would have been around 230W. 50-60% of FTP is what most people can generally manage on an ultrarace.
If you can do your FTP for much more than an hour, it's not your FTP! There are well-established power curves which show, for an FTP of X, what your power should be as % of X, for durations from a few seconds upwards. If you are significantly below your curve at any point it generally shows a lack of training for that duration.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 24 January, 2021, 03:47:24 pm
The hardest thing I have ridden up is Hardknott. It has two short sections which are 30% but the average is 14%. It is in the UK so it isn't very long, maybe 3km. I don't know if the TCR one was like that. If it was, I would have certainly been walking. When Mike was running the TCR, everything was rideable - it didn't have the crazy parcours which have now become a feature.
I did Hardknott as part of the Fred Whitton, it comes after about 90 miles and after Kirkstone, Honister and Whinlatter, among others. I did go up only because I had a 1:1 gear ratio (34 x 34)... very hard to keep the balance at ridiculously low speed... majority of riders got off and walked and I am not talking about folks with 1.5 W/Kg FTP, more like 3, which you need if you want to finish the event before they close down the HQ.
Before that, I had never seen anything similar, and even after... maybe Bushcome lane in the Cotswolds briefly matches it... but no Wrynose, no Bwlch-Y-Groes are that brutal
Post by: Davef on 24 January, 2021, 04:03:52 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210124/e94f9614f9ea039549a7d64132a76a57.jpg)
The hardest thing I have ridden up is Hardknott. It has two short sections which are 30% but the average is 14%. It is in the UK so it isn't very long, maybe 3km. I don't know if the TCR one was like that. If it was, I would have certainly been walking. When Mike was running the TCR, everything was rideable - it didn't have the crazy parcours which have now become a feature.
I did Hardknott as part of the Fred Whitton, it comes after about 90 miles and after Kirkstone, Honister and Whinlatter, among others. I did go up only because I had a 1:1 gear ratio (34 x 34)... very hard to keep the balance at ridiculously low speed... majority of riders got off and walked and I am not talking about folks with 1.5 W/Kg FTP, more like 3, which you need if you want to finish the event before they close down the HQ.
Before that, I had never seen anything similar, and even after... maybe Bushcome lane in the Cotswolds briefly matches it... but no Wrynose, no Bwlch-Y-Groes are that brutal
Post by: Davef on 24 January, 2021, 04:12:10 pm
I completely agree. If your gears are low enough to keep the wheels turning bikes balance themselves at very low speeds, way slower than walking pace. Balance goes when you don’t have gears low enough to keep turning.At 2W/Kg you'll struggle to keep balance on anything over 7-8%
Rubbish! It's very hard to fall off a bike from going too slowly.
I have a comedy 20 tooth small chaining I sometimes fit to my CX bike for silliness.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 24 January, 2021, 04:17:31 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210124/e94f9614f9ea039549a7d64132a76a57.jpg)
The hardest thing I have ridden up is Hardknott. It has two short sections which are 30% but the average is 14%. It is in the UK so it isn't very long, maybe 3km. I don't know if the TCR one was like that. If it was, I would have certainly been walking. When Mike was running the TCR, everything was rideable - it didn't have the crazy parcours which have now become a feature.
I did Hardknott as part of the Fred Whitton, it comes after about 90 miles and after Kirkstone, Honister and Whinlatter, among others. I did go up only because I had a 1:1 gear ratio (34 x 34)... very hard to keep the balance at ridiculously low speed... majority of riders got off and walked and I am not talking about folks with 1.5 W/Kg FTP, more like 3, which you need if you want to finish the event before they close down the HQ.
Before that, I had never seen anything similar, and even after... maybe Bushcome lane in the Cotswolds briefly matches it... but no Wrynose, no Bwlch-Y-Groes are that brutal
Yes, but that is a hundred yard long, it's not even a climb, it's a very steep bump... and if you take the bend on the opposite side is not 40%... besides, it's one way going down. IMO Hardknott is unparallelled, because of sustained gradient and the gradient comes in the form of vicious bends, whereas other steep climbs are easier to deal with because they are straight (Bwlch-Y-Groes, Wrynose for instance)
Post by: Davef on 24 January, 2021, 04:22:51 pm
If you go up a 6% hill at 20km/h using 6W/kg then you would go up a 4% hill at 20km/h using 4W/kg. Using 2W/kg would go up at 10km/h.
Don’t be silly, of course you can go up hills at 2W/kg. You just go up at half the speed of 4W/kg, so perhaps doing 10km/h compared to someone else doing 20km/h.
I don't quite recognise your numbers... I do hill climb races, typically anything between 5.5 and 6.5 W/kg depending on the length (2-10 minute climbs). The only race where i climbed at over 20 km/h was Walbury hill, it probably averages 6%...
At 2W/Kg you'll struggle to keep balance on anything over 7-8%
It is difficult to know how much power is being lost but in terms of vertical m gained it takes 9.8W to raise 1kg by 1m in 1 second (on earth, other planets are available)
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 24 January, 2021, 04:55:13 pm
If you go up a 6% hill at 20km/h using 6W/kg then you would go up a 4% hill at 20km/h using 4W/kg. Using 2W/kg would go up at 10km/h.
Don’t be silly, of course you can go up hills at 2W/kg. You just go up at half the speed of 4W/kg, so perhaps doing 10km/h compared to someone else doing 20km/h.
I don't quite recognise your numbers... I do hill climb races, typically anything between 5.5 and 6.5 W/kg depending on the length (2-10 minute climbs). The only race where i climbed at over 20 km/h was Walbury hill, it probably averages 6%...
At 2W/Kg you'll struggle to keep balance on anything over 7-8%
It is difficult to know how much power is being lost but in terms of vertical m gained it takes 9.8W to raise 1kg by 1m in 1 second (on earth, other planets are available)
Yes, possibly, but is 4% even a climb?
Post by: morbihan on 24 January, 2021, 04:57:26 pm
Fatigue, heat, injuries, state of mind, riding style, perhaps age, the terrain and conditions that you regularly train in.
My ballpark power figs are 3.5 w/kg or there about.
On first TCR I had gearing of just over 1:1
Second one exactly 1:1 and it wasn't enough! Cue multiple ugly incidents of a destroyed rider trying to clip in on super steep slopes wasting precious energy.
The new set up is 0.72 and shorter cranks and flat pedals.
My power figures suggest that 1:1 would be sufficient, but its not. I like riding up hills, but perhaps Im not very good at it.
Post by: Davef on 24 January, 2021, 05:20:13 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 January, 2021, 05:45:15 pm
Given those numbers, it seems to me you would be better off prioritising losing weight, over doing hill training at this stage. There is a long way to go between now and TCR, and if you can lose a kg a week between now and April, then you will be in a much better place to train effectively, with still plenty of time to do things properly.
I am prioritising the advice I get from my coach over everything else. They know more about this than me, and more than many people on this forum. Which is why I am happy giving her a large chunk of money each month.
As for losing 1kg per week. That would mean a deficit over the week of 9000kcal. or 1286kcal per day. With a recommended daily intake for a woman of 2000kcal. That would mean living on 700kcal per day. Which is about 3 mars bars. or 15 apples, depending on which unit of energy you prefer to use.
Or, I could just go for some bike rides. 9000kcal is only about 360km. Which is not too high an amount for a week's training...
Today's ride was 1291kcal...
J
Post by: Davef on 24 January, 2021, 06:06:06 pm
That seems very sensible. It also avoids the body going into starvation panic mode. It is always a combination of exercise and sensible eating that works for me.
Given those numbers, it seems to me you would be better off prioritising losing weight, over doing hill training at this stage. There is a long way to go between now and TCR, and if you can lose a kg a week between now and April, then you will be in a much better place to train effectively, with still plenty of time to do things properly.
I am prioritising the advice I get from my coach over everything else. They know more about this than me, and more than many people on this forum. Which is why I am happy giving her a large chunk of money each month.
As for losing 1kg per week. That would mean a deficit over the week of 9000kcal. or 1286kcal per day. With a recommended daily intake for a woman of 2000kcal. That would mean living on 700kcal per day. Which is about 3 mars bars. or 15 apples, depending on which unit of energy you prefer to use.
Or, I could just go for some bike rides. 9000kcal is only about 360km. Which is not too high an amount for a week's training...
Today's ride was 1291kcal...
J
Post by: morbihan on 24 January, 2021, 06:10:46 pm
Shorter cranks make it a little bit harder.
Gentler on the knees though.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 24 January, 2021, 06:47:27 pm
Shorter cranks make it a little bit harder.
Gentler on the knees though.
Not so sure about that. Sure angle of knee is less at top of stroke (assuming you keep bottom of stroke angle the same) but you need to put more force through the knee to generate the same torque. Mind unless the cranks are significantly shorter, the difference isn’t that great.
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 January, 2021, 07:04:30 pm
Shorter cranks make it a little bit harder.
Gentler on the knees though.
Not so sure about that. Sure angle of knee is less at top of stroke (assuming you keep bottom of stroke angle the same) but you need to put more force through the knee to generate the same torque. Mind unless the cranks are significantly shorter, the difference isn’t that great.
The physics is correct so what you normally do is have lower gearing to compensate.
It then becomes easier on your knees as the angle at the top of the pedal stroke is a bit less acute.
Post by: Davef on 24 January, 2021, 07:09:07 pm
I am sure Archimedes said something similar in αρχές του στροφαλοθάλαμου in 340bcShorter cranks make it a little bit harder.
Gentler on the knees though.
Not so sure about that. Sure angle of knee is less at top of stroke (assuming you keep bottom of stroke angle the same) but you need to put more force through the knee to generate the same torque. Mind unless the cranks are significantly shorter, the difference isn’t that great.
The physics is correct so what you normally do is have lower gearing to compensate.
It then becomes easier on your knees as the angle at the top of the pedal stroke is a bit less acute.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 24 January, 2021, 07:23:13 pm
I am sure Archimedes said something similar in αρχές του στροφαλοθάλαμου in 340bcShorter cranks make it a little bit harder.
Gentler on the knees though.
Not so sure about that. Sure angle of knee is less at top of stroke (assuming you keep bottom of stroke angle the same) but you need to put more force through the knee to generate the same torque. Mind unless the cranks are significantly shorter, the difference isn’t that great.
The physics is correct so what you normally do is have lower gearing to compensate.
It then becomes easier on your knees as the angle at the top of the pedal stroke is a bit less acute.
His bikes used to rust though as he was always in the bath. Plus his cranks moving in water involved different force dynamics.
Post by: morbihan on 24 January, 2021, 10:09:23 pm
I am sure Archimedes said something similar in αρχές του στροφαλοθάλαμου in 340bcShorter cranks make it a little bit harder.
Gentler on the knees though.
Not so sure about that. Sure angle of knee is less at top of stroke (assuming you keep bottom of stroke angle the same) but you need to put more force through the knee to generate the same torque. Mind unless the cranks are significantly shorter, the difference isn’t that great.
The physics is correct so what you normally do is have lower gearing to compensate.
It then becomes easier on your knees as the angle at the top of the pedal stroke is a bit less acute.
His bikes used to rust though as he was always in the bath. Plus his cranks moving in water involved different force dynamics.
Don't listen to him. He had a screw loose.
Post by: Paul H on 24 January, 2021, 10:25:35 pm
Or, I could just go for some bike rides. 9000kcal is only about 360km. Which is not too high an amount for a week's training...I really do wish you every success with that, though you would be the first and I hope it isn't a plan you're relying on.
Today's ride was 1291kcal...
J
Post by: quixoticgeek on 24 January, 2021, 11:17:37 pm
I really do wish you every success with that, though you would be the first and I hope it isn't a plan you're relying on.
I lost 15kg in 9 months without changing my diet. Just by cycling more.
I only put some of the weight back on when I got ill.
Weight loss is simple, eat less, move more. If you're struggling to eat less, move even more... That's what I did.
My challenge now is not over training.
Yes, possibly, but is 4% even a climb?
Yes. Yes it is. Anything above 0% is a climb. It's kinda implicit in the fact that a positive gradient is used.
Is it a big climb? not for some people, for others it is.
A complete newbie who's got a stock bike from the local bike shop, or decathlon may well find a 4% incline a challenge. Esp if it goes on for a really long time.
To say "Pah, is that even a hill?" is hardly the best attitude.
You'd do well to invest in a power meter if you want to keep track of this stuff.
There are no dual sided power meters that work with my setup. I have Shimano M8000 2x11 drive train with 28/38 at the front. I have yet to find a dual sided power meter that will do this. Not to mention just how expensive a power meter is.
I'd love to have one, but currently budget says no.
Next big purchase is upgrading the brakes.
I was about 72kg and went slowly up the climbs. The reason I was doing 120W rather than 100 is because I needed to put in a bit more effort to keep moving and stay on. Lots of climbs might include some short ramps that are very steep but the duration is important. The Grosse Scheidegg and Giau both had about 10km at slightly under 10%. They are steep climbs, but not stupid.
Yeah, it's how long the ramp lasts for that can be key. Some of the hills in limburg look benign on paper, until you realised the 15%+ ramps in the middle.
Quote
The hardest thing I have ridden up is Hardknott. It has two short sections which are 30% but the average is 14%. It is in the UK so it isn't very long, maybe 3km. I don't know if the TCR one was like that. If it was, I would have certainly been walking. When Mike was running the TCR, everything was rideable - it didn't have the crazy parcours which have now become a feature.
The parcours in the earlier editions certainly seem to be more suitable for actual humans. That's for sure.
Quote
My FTP at the time would have been around 230W. 50-60% of FTP is what most people can generally manage on an ultrarace.
Unfortunately 50-60% of my FTP (tho I've not measured it recently, but doubt it's grown significiantly), would be about 60-70 watts. Not enough to get up any significant rise...
Quote
If you can do your FTP for much more than an hour, it's not your FTP! There are well-established power curves which show, for an FTP of X, what your power should be as % of X, for durations from a few seconds upwards. If you are significantly below your curve at any point it generally shows a lack of training for that duration.
Yeah, it think I've misinterpreted how FTP works. Not having a power meter it's largely been abstract to me.
This does make me wonder how things like the Super Randonnee rides work. To complete 10000m of climbing in 600km in 60 hours, climbing must be done at a really significant proportion of FTP.
Yes, but that is a hundred yard long, it's not even a climb, it's a very steep bump... and if you take the bend on the opposite side is not 40%... besides, it's one way going down. IMO Hardknott is unparallelled, because of sustained gradient and the gradient comes in the form of vicious bends, whereas other steep climbs are easier to deal with because they are straight (Bwlch-Y-Groes, Wrynose for instance)
Nope, it's a climb... The fact that nearly all of us would have to get off and walk it, is a good indication that it's not just a bump.
I think you can get bogged down on power data in general and particularly for the ultra events where so many other factors can affect how you are moving forward.
Fatigue, heat, injuries, state of mind, riding style, perhaps age, the terrain and conditions that you regularly train in.
My ballpark power figs are 3.5 w/kg or there about.
On first TCR I had gearing of just over 1:1
Second one exactly 1:1 and it wasn't enough! Cue multiple ugly incidents of a destroyed rider trying to clip in on super steep slopes wasting precious energy.
The new set up is 0.72 and shorter cranks and flat pedals.
My power figures suggest that 1:1 would be sufficient, but its not. I like riding up hills, but perhaps Im not very good at it.
Exactly, this is part of what really annoys me when people say things like "A 1:1 gear is enough for anyone!" or "with a 30:34 you'll be spinning up those hills".
I stand by my belief that pretty much all off the shelf bikes have gearing that is just too high.
We're not Marriana Vos, we're not Anna van de Bregen, I wish they'd stop selling bikes like we all are.
J
Post by: Paul H on 24 January, 2021, 11:31:25 pm
OK, I'll be in the queue to get the book signed. I do like the idea that weight loss is simple :thumbsup:
I really do wish you every success with that, though you would be the first and I hope it isn't a plan you're relying on.
I lost 15kg in 9 months without changing my diet. Just by cycling more.
I only put some of the weight back on when I got ill.
Weight loss is simple, eat less, move more. If you're struggling to eat less, move even more... That's what I did.
My challenge now is not over training.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 January, 2021, 12:08:36 am
OK, I'll be in the queue to get the book signed. I do like the idea that weight loss is simple :thumbsup:
It really is. The equation is easy. If energy in is less than energy out, the reserves will be used. When reserves are used, weight goes down.
Making that work in practice can be difficult for some, but that's how it works. If you had a steady weight, and started cycling 20km per day (say to work and back), you'd burn an additional ~500kcal per day. 3500kcal a week.
That's at a level you probably won't feel too hungry by, and it's quite a sustainable weight loss.
If you're an idiot (which according to popular opinion on yacf, I am), then you can do other crazy energy expenditure things.
Get up in the morning skip breakfast. Get on the bike. Ride 75km. Your body is going to hate you for it. It won't be pleasant. You won't enjoy it, you won't be quick. But if you're stubborn enough, your body will do it. You have about 2000kcal of glycogen in your body you should be able to do 80km without needing to fuel. But we're not used to it, and you won't enjoy the process.
A couple of years ago in Belgium 150km into a 300k ride, I was riding along singing. A fly decided to sacrifice itself to the cause of silence, and hit me in the back of the throat. I puked. Lost all of my lunch. And then my stomach refused to accept any more food. I did the remaining 150km through the Ardennes, I finished an hour over time, but until 20km from the end when my body would accept a KitKat, i was unable to put any food in. I did 150km on an empty stomach. It was horrible, I would not recommend it. I hit the wall and went through it. But I did finish. I am 30kg over weight. In theory I could do 10000km without needing to eat, just water and some vitamin pills. It just would not be a pleasant experience to do so and would have other annoying side effects. There was a experiment done where an overweight subject was given water and vitamin tablets, and nothing else for several months. He lost lots of weight, but was otherwise unharmed.
Eat less, move more. If you can't eat less, move a whole lot more. If you're not racing, if you're not chasing the clock, you'd be surprised how little you actually need to eat for a given distance.
The challenge with losing weight is to do it in such a way you don't lay in bed unable to sleep cos you're hungry... The rest is just simple maths.
J
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 25 January, 2021, 08:25:37 am
As for losing 1kg per week. That would mean a deficit over the week of 9000kcal. or 1286kcal per day. With a recommended daily intake for a woman of 2000kcal. That would mean living on 700kcal per day. Which is about 3 mars bars. or 15 apples, depending on which unit of energy you prefer to use.
Simplistic...
You don't need a 9K calorie deficit to lose a kg, simply because when you lose 1kg, only some of it is fat, you also lose water, probably around half of it is going to be water, since you are made up of 60% water or thereabout, maybe less in your case, let's say 50. Then of course no process is 100% efficient... whilst in theory there are 9K calories in a kg of fat, that doesn't mean you can extract them all with zero loss.
1-2 pounds a week seems to be the guideline for weight loss and even I, when I had a BMI of 25, managed to lose a pound a week for about 3 months without starving myself. It shouldn't be difficult at all to double that, if you are much higher in BMI.
With that in mind, if your coach thinks it is more important to prioritise your climbing, then I agree you should follow the advice you pay for. At the end of the day, in some races I have been beaten by folks that I would call "fat", so it is possible to climb fast even with a few extra kg... it just makes it harder.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 January, 2021, 10:55:50 am
Simplistic...
Well yes, it's a forum post, not a peer reviewed journal article. What are you expecting?
Quote
You don't need a 9K calorie deficit to lose a kg, simply because when you lose 1kg, only some of it is fat, you also lose water, probably around half of it is going to be water, since you are made up of 60% water or thereabout, maybe less in your case, let's say 50. Then of course no process is 100% efficient... whilst in theory there are 9K calories in a kg of fat, that doesn't mean you can extract them all with zero loss.
Um, no. To lose 1kg of body fat, you need to burn 1kg of body fat. That means 9000kcal. Water loss is something that is so variable that it should not be factored into weight loss. Being dehydrated one day vs the next. This is why I don't weigh myself in the few days after a long ride, as it takes a couple of days for the body to stabilise.
Quote
1-2 pounds a week seems to be the guideline for weight loss and even I, when I had a BMI of 25, managed to lose a pound a week for about 3 months without starving myself. It shouldn't be difficult at all to double that, if you are much higher in BMI.
Um, why would I be losing pounds? If I wanted to lose 1-2 euros, I'd buy some fries...
Yes. It is the guidance from pretty much everyone seems to be to try to lose 500-1000g per week for safe, sustained weight loss. 500g of body fat is 4500kcal or 642kcal per day over 7 days. Which is about 26km of cycling.
I'm sure someone here suggested cycling about 20km per day as a way to lose weight... who was that?
Quote
With that in mind, if your coach thinks it is more important to prioritise your climbing, then I agree you should follow the advice you pay for. At the end of the day, in some races I have been beaten by folks that I would call "fat", so it is possible to climb fast even with a few extra kg... it just makes it harder.
"You don't look like a cyclist" I am often told.
I saw a doctor a couple of years back.
"Do you exercise?"
"I ride my bike"
"Do that more"
8 Weeks later, I walk into his office.
"You told me I need to cycle more. Since our last appointment I've done 2072km, which is less than the 2500km I did in the 8 weeks before the last appointment. I'm worried I am not able to cycle more than I already am"
The look on his face was priceless.
No doubt I'd struggle a lot more if I lived somewhere that wasn't pancake flat.
I have about 26 weeks until the race. Any weight loss will help me. Full on starvation will not help me either with training, or with keeping the weight off.
My biggest concern is over training. Cos I know I've done that in the past, which is why I have a coach, to guide me through this, so I don't fuck it up.
J
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 25 January, 2021, 12:05:17 pm
Um, why would I be losing pounds? If I wanted to lose 1-2 euros, I'd buy some fries...
I must have lost track of how the conversation ended up with you wanting to improve your climbing... but typically one comes to a forum to ask for advice. If then said person (look at me avoiding the use of pronouns!) is not prepared to accept advice and pays a coach who has already devised a personalised training program, then I wonder why are we here discussing things that need no discussion?
Do what your coach says, you'll be fine, you'll be in peak condition for TCR and you'll fly up those mountains, 100kg and all
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 25 January, 2021, 12:11:16 pm
Post by: fimm on 25 January, 2021, 01:29:25 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 January, 2021, 02:33:21 pm
I must have lost track of how the conversation ended up with you wanting to improve your climbing... but typically one comes to a forum to ask for advice. If then said person (look at me avoiding the use of pronouns!) is not prepared to accept advice and pays a coach who has already devised a personalised training program, then I wonder why are we here discussing things that need no discussion?
Do what your coach says, you'll be fine, you'll be in peak condition for TCR and you'll fly up those mountains, 100kg and all
You see, if you'd been on the forum longer than 5 months, you would know that I am forever banging on about how barbaric it is that people still use Imperial units. You'd know that I also live in the Eurozone. Thus the opportunity to make a joke about metric vs imperial, with a little bit of a EU reference for added measure, is too good to pass up.
Afterall, who in their right mind wouldn't use the metric system?
Fimm is quite right. In this thread, I didn't come for advice. You can tell when I do, as the thread has probably reached double digit pages, and resulted in at least 4 different misunderstandings, three topic shifts, and yet more reinforcement of the popular opinion of yacfers that I am infact, a complete idiot.
Why are we discussing things that need no discussing? Because to the closest approximation, we are all human, we all have relatively similar interests, and we're making small talk. You'll notice we have discussed bears, road quality, route ideas, who should or should not race, if anyone other than the pointy end are actually racing.
Now I did ask for some advice on climbing, back in November 2019:
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=114141.msg2446370#msg2446370
In the immediate few posts after that, there was lots of really good stuff from very experienced riders who's opinion I value. People who have completed the TCR as well as other ultraraces.
But having reread the whole thread, that's the only point I've come close to asking for advice, and you weren't even in the forum then.
I come to the forum cos it's lockdown, its my day off, and a lot of the people on the forum say things I want to hear. I might not agree with everyone, I may not like everyone, but I do value the opinion of many of them.
J
Post by: DuncanM on 25 January, 2021, 02:50:23 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 January, 2021, 02:51:56 pm
This may not be the thread, but how does your coach set your training zones if you do not have a power meter? HR? (And is that how you are calculating your calorie burn?) Unless you have some known issue regarding imbalances I would suggest that a single sided power meter is better than no PM, and there are pedal power meters available for all major pedal systems except speedplay now. There's no such thing as a cheap accurate PM though - you know your budget and how well what you do is working better than anyone else.
I pedal on flats...
We are using a HRM.
J
Post by: Zed43 on 25 January, 2021, 06:31:13 pm
Post by: Davef on 27 January, 2021, 11:51:19 am
At 2W/Kg you'll struggle to keep balance on anything over 7-8%Thinking about this, at 6W/kg do you struggle to keep balance on anything over 21-24% ?
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 27 January, 2021, 11:54:02 am
At 2W/Kg you'll struggle to keep balance on anything over 7-8%Thinking about this, at 6W/kg do you struggle to keep balance on anything over 21-24% ?
yes, if it keeps going, I do... as I said earlier, Hardknott is difficult mainly because of low speed and balance issues. There aren't many climbs which have a long section at that kind of gradient
Post by: Karla on 27 January, 2021, 12:07:02 pm
PowerTap G3 hub (https://www.ebay.nl/itm/NIB-PowerTap-G3-Rear-Disc-Hub-32-Hole-160mm-Rotor-ANT-Shimano-HG-NEW-IN-BOX/184511509424), but it's 527 euro and then you still need to build a wheel with it.Powertaps frequently come up on eBay for much less than that. Greenbank was selling a Powertap wheel on here for a couple of hundred quid not so long ago, I think. Needing disc brakes will thin the field a bit, but I'd definitely look out for one if I wanted a cheap PM.
Post by: Frank9755 on 27 January, 2021, 01:57:02 pm
Not much use for short duration sprint intervals but pretty good for pacing longer efforts.
https://www.cyclepowermeters.com/powertap/powertap-powercal.html (https://www.cyclepowermeters.com/powertap/powertap-powercal.html)
I've had one for a few years (they cost a lot less when I got mine) and it's not bad. Mine measures much lower than other PMs - although most people don't get that - and it's fine as long as I don't try to make direct comparisions with other data.
Post by: DuncanM on 27 January, 2021, 02:53:32 pm
However, if QG is happy with their current training regime, I think we're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. :)
Post by: Frank9755 on 04 February, 2021, 06:04:07 pm
It looks like people who lost out in the ballot will get places, plus there is an opportunity for others from underrepresented minorities to apply.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 04 February, 2021, 08:41:07 pm
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2012/11/cycleops-powercal-in-depth-review.html
Post by: morbihan on 16 February, 2021, 12:09:16 pm
On previous TCR's its the mountains that have beaten me up. The Mangart/Visric on TCRno6 looms large in the memory. At 80 odd kilos I'm never going to fly up the hills but figured some solid base training would set the climbing legs in good stead. Previously I have chosen a local bump outside and done repeats, but I don't think it really simulates a long climb in the same way. Too much resting on the way down every five mins. The turbo however...really drains the batteries. Ive resisted adding 10 kilos to my weight profile to account for the bike weight because erm...I can't face the thought of it right now! Maybe a loaded simulation or two next month after recovery.
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 18 February, 2021, 02:29:56 pm
There is a momentum gathering around the necessity of having a vaccine to cross borders and the average TCR punter won't get a jab by the summer, making things exceedingly complicated.
Second best is to have a PCR test, which again is not compatible with racing across nations
Post by: quixoticgeek on 18 February, 2021, 02:48:09 pm
My guess is that it won't happen again...
There is a momentum gathering around the necessity of having a vaccine to cross borders and the average TCR punter won't get a jab by the summer, making things exceedingly complicated.
Second best is to have a PCR test, which again is not compatible with racing across nations
I'm having similar fears. On the plus side, it'll mean more time to train, but I guess that also means a 3rd set of controls...
J
Post by: morbihan on 18 February, 2021, 05:28:57 pm
My guess is that it won't happen again...
There is a momentum gathering around the necessity of having a vaccine to cross borders and the average TCR punter won't get a jab by the summer, making things exceedingly complicated.
Second best is to have a PCR test, which again is not compatible with racing across nations
Yup thats certainly conceivable, but I will continue to train on the assumption that its going ahead. If it doesn't then ahh well.
It seems a little other worldly out here on the Island. After a nasty flare up before Christmas we are now down to 4 active cases, two of which were imported and diagnosed quickly.
The vaccination programme is forging ahead, though not at the rate it is in the UK that seems to be leading the field.
I would have thought that with the vaccinations moving quickly herd immunity or at least approaching it would be possible by the Summer?
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 18 February, 2021, 06:01:48 pm
I would have thought that with the vaccinations moving quickly herd immunity or at least approaching it would be possible by the Summer?
Herd immunity simply means that mathematically the virus is prevented from having an Rt>1. If on average, without restrictions, you infect 3 others, if two are vaccinated, then you only infect one. However, the vaccine doesn't fully prevent infection and transmission, so the level of vaccinations required for an effective herd immunity might be well over 80%, which will never realistically be achieved, unless you start vaccinating kids too.
Also, apparently the new mutations have a higher R0, hence on average you might infect 5 without restrictions, meaning you need 4 of them (80%) to be vaccinated... and to that you need to add the fraction of immunised who still pass the virus, so maybe 90% is the safe level?
More to the point, even in the UK was to achieve something close to herd immunity, that will not be the case in continental Europe for some time.
And then of course there is the paranoia of new mutations being imported, which will inevitably lead to borders being hard to pass for the all of 2021
Post by: Lightning Phil on 18 February, 2021, 07:04:32 pm
Succumbed to life on the turbo this month to mimic hill climbing for TCR. A mountain climb every day on the taxc neo app. The plan is to ride at least 30 to 35 k vertical which is, I think, about the height ridden in the event, all be it in a month rather than a week.
On previous TCR's its the mountains that have beaten me up. The Mangart/Visric on TCRno6 looms large in the memory. At 80 odd kilos I'm never going to fly up the hills but figured some solid base training would set the climbing legs in good stead. Previously I have chosen a local bump outside and done repeats, but I don't think it really simulates a long climb in the same way. Too much resting on the way down every five mins. The turbo however...really drains the batteries. Ive resisted adding 10 kilos to my weight profile to account for the bike weight because erm...I can't face the thought of it right now! Maybe a loaded simulation or two next month after recovery.
I’ve done Mt Ventoux on the turbo and it’s certainly a tired set of legs that climb off. Are you trying to do the sessions at a constant effort that replicates the pacing you might do up an alpine scale pass in the race?
Post by: morbihan on 18 February, 2021, 08:48:38 pm
Succumbed to life on the turbo this month to mimic hill climbing for TCR. A mountain climb every day on the taxc neo app. The plan is to ride at least 30 to 35 k vertical which is, I think, about the height ridden in the event, all be it in a month rather than a week.
On previous TCR's its the mountains that have beaten me up. The Mangart/Visric on TCRno6 looms large in the memory. At 80 odd kilos I'm never going to fly up the hills but figured some solid base training would set the climbing legs in good stead. Previously I have chosen a local bump outside and done repeats, but I don't think it really simulates a long climb in the same way. Too much resting on the way down every five mins. The turbo however...really drains the batteries. Ive resisted adding 10 kilos to my weight profile to account for the bike weight because erm...I can't face the thought of it right now! Maybe a loaded simulation or two next month after recovery.
I’ve done Mt Ventoux on the turbo and it’s certainly a tired set of legs that climb off. Are you trying to do the sessions at a constant effort that replicates the pacing you might do up an alpine scale pass in the race?
That was the plan, but I have ended up selectively doing interval training on various segments so its kind of all over the place. It will help with the local road race season here that starts next month I suppose but galloping up a climb at 250 watts certainly isn't in my playbook for TCR! I figured that if I do a ton of climbing even at varying intensities its got to set up a good base. 18 days in and Im certainly feeling the effects in the fatigue department about now. A couple of all-day climbs is probably prudent too. We have a new turbo arriving some time in the near future that should be a better fit than the current setup so I think Ill wait for that before attempting a 6 hour horror show.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 04 March, 2021, 05:36:31 pm
Not sure how to quantify how training is going. But I'm down about 2kg on the body mass.
Just another 30 to go...
J
Post by: morbihan on 04 March, 2021, 06:04:23 pm
good effort. Im sure you will be fine even if you don't shed another 30.
Not sure how to quantify how training is going. But I'm down about 2kg on the body mass.
Just another 30 to go...
J
Still tapping out the virtual climbs at this end with the goal of being less shit in the mountains. Really loving the scenery on the films.
Ive given up on the prospect of shedding weight on the grounds that my new bike is fooking heavy anyway.
Im a little freaked by the new variants leaping around in covid world and not so sure if the race will have to be pulled. Too early to gauge, but concerning.'
Post by: Ajax Bay on 02 May, 2021, 11:29:00 pm
I think you might like to listen to Helen Murray's 'Inside Tri Show':
https://www.insidetrishow.com/episode/fiona-kolbinger
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 May, 2021, 11:41:23 pm
@quixoticgeek
I think you might like to listen to Helen Murray's 'Inside Tri Show':
https://www.insidetrishow.com/episode/fiona-kolbinger
Already did. Thank you. A very interesting interview.
Lake Tahoe.
J
Post by: morbihan on 03 May, 2021, 12:34:03 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 03 May, 2021, 01:23:39 pm
Id say with the new EU travel directives for the Summer. TCR is almost certainly a go. Best dial in the tapering QG. Hopefully see you in Brest.
I wonder how it's going to work. I'm not expecting to be fully vaccinated in time. I'm hoping for 1 dose at least. Will we need a PCR to cross each border?
J
Post by: Davef on 03 May, 2021, 04:45:20 pm
Post by: morbihan on 03 May, 2021, 07:29:38 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/03/eu-plans-to-reopen-to-fully-covid-vaccinated-foreign-tourists-from-june
Post by: PeterB on 04 May, 2021, 03:52:19 pm
Post by: Davef on 04 May, 2021, 05:28:31 pm
This is very encouraging. I wonder if there will still be any sort of quarantine? Would be good to know soon to organise, travel, etc.According to the eu green certificate thingy is you have your qr code showing vaccination or testing status there will not normally be any quarantine.
https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/safe-covid-19-vaccines-europeans/covid-19-digital-green-certificates_en
Post by: PeterB on 04 May, 2021, 05:55:44 pm
Post by: Davef on 04 May, 2021, 09:35:12 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 11 May, 2021, 06:20:33 pm
Sat down for an hour of route fettling. I now have three routes for the ports to the finish. Each with varying degrees of climbing involved. Also rather pleased to reduce the climb on my route from CP3 to CP4 by nearly 2700m. While reducing the distance by 5km too.
It's all starting to get very real.
J
Post by: mattc on 11 May, 2021, 06:56:47 pm
:thumbsup:
Post by: morbihan on 11 May, 2021, 07:16:10 pm
Sat down for an hour of route fettling. I now have three routes for the ports to the finish. Each with varying degrees of climbing involved. Also rather pleased to reduce the climb on my route from CP3 to CP4 by nearly 2700m. While reducing the distance by 5km too.
It's all starting to get very real.
J
Yup Greece there is bumpy AF. Also that Appenine part of Italy seems bumpy AF. The trip East through hthe Alps to the goat tracks above Stelvio appears to be bumpy AF. I will inevitably get horribly lost at some point in a gravel strewn area that's bumpy AF
Ah well, all good training for TPR later in the year that's.......
Thank goodness for the sub compact this time round.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 12 May, 2021, 10:14:23 pm
This may make things interesting for none EU residents
https://www.demarches.interieur.gouv.fr/particuliers/attestation-accueil
J
Post by: quixoticgeek on 12 May, 2021, 10:19:06 pm
https://twitter.com/jamesmb/status/1392170998104043521
Twitter thread summarising it.
J
Post by: Davef on 13 May, 2021, 08:11:57 am
Most countries of the world have requirements to prove you have a return ticket, accommodation and financial means for your stay. It is only if they think you are dodgy do they ever ask.
This may make things interesting for none EU residents
https://www.demarches.interieur.gouv.fr/particuliers/attestation-accueil
J
If France decide to start being silly then fully refundable hotel bookings are available and much easier than the paperwork providing proof you are staying with friends.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 13 May, 2021, 08:44:18 am
https://twitter.com/jamesmb/status/1392170998104043521
Twitter thread summarising it.
J
He was doing ever so well till he went beyond the basic facts.
Post by: morbihan on 14 May, 2021, 01:56:24 pm
The diabolical mountain weather was also a great advert for fitting mudguards.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 May, 2021, 02:01:04 pm
yesterdays Giro stage took some likely possible routing for the journey from the Stelvio to CP4 in the Appenines.
The diabolical mountain weather was also a great advert for fitting mudguards.
Todays route has some of my planned route to CP4... The bit along the coast.
J
Post by: Karla on 14 May, 2021, 02:22:56 pm
https://twitter.com/jamesmb/status/1392170998104043521
Twitter thread summarising it.
J
He was doing ever so well till he went beyond the basic facts.
Having travelled to a couple of dozen non-EU countries, most of them on a bike and without a definite agenda, it's worth saying that countries requiring confirmed accommodation for every night, proof of itinerary etc is
1) Pretty common
2) Nowhere near universal
3) Observed with widely varying levels of strenuousness.
There are lots of countries that will let you in without a hotel booking for every night, so it's not an inevitable consequence of leaving the EU, though the Schengen zone does have harsh border checks at its borders, in exchange for allowing you to travel between 26 countries visa-free once you're in. Of countries that do require this sort of thing, some don't really care, some want you to make some tokenistic effort (e.g. in Japan, mentioning a friend's house at the border and being evasive as to quite how long I intended to stay there), and some (e.g. China if you want to cycle) require you to make an entire fake itinerary using refundable bookings sites.
If France want to behave like China, it's up to them but it isn't a good look. I highly doubt it'll turn out like that though.
Post by: morbihan on 14 May, 2021, 05:47:54 pm
yesterdays Giro stage took some likely possible routing for the journey from the Stelvio to CP4 in the Appenines.
The diabolical mountain weather was also a great advert for fitting mudguards.
Todays route has some of my planned route to CP4... The bit along the coast.
J
if you have access to taxc films. This is a fun recce I stumbled across today.
https://www.strava.com/activities/5295731007
Post by: quixoticgeek on 20 May, 2021, 05:08:54 pm
Well, today's email makes me think the needle on the "Will it happen this year" o-meter, has just swang towards the negative slightly...
But we'll know for sure by next Friday
J
Post by: JamieO on 20 May, 2021, 09:50:24 pm
I agree Anna's email today left me a bit less confident but the Covid testing should hopefully not be a major issue:
France: PCR test will be completed before the start so no race delay
Italy: from what I understand Italy accepts rapid lateral flow tests which are free and fast https://www.medicspot.co.uk/covid-test/italy
Greece: it looks like you can get PCR tests in Bari 7 days/week for €62 with results in a few hours https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g187874-i799-k13395860-Covid_test_in_Bari_for_traveling_to_Greece-Bari_Province_of_Bari_Puglia.html
I've not yet been vaccinated so will need testing but I don't mind losing a few hours in Bari (or a day, or whatever it takes) if that means the race can go ahead this year, rather than staring at maps trying to find another underwhelming backup plan for the summer.
Stay safe, hope to see you all in Brest
Jamie
Post by: quixoticgeek on 20 May, 2021, 09:57:25 pm
Hi all - longtime reader here, first time poster :)
I agree Anna's email today left me a bit less confident but the Covid testing should hopefully not be a major issue:
France: PCR test will be completed before the start so no race delay
Italy: from what I understand Italy accepts rapid lateral flow tests which are free and fast https://www.medicspot.co.uk/covid-test/italy
Greece: it looks like you can get PCR tests in Bari 7 days/week for €62 with results in a few hours https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g187874-i799-k13395860-Covid_test_in_Bari_for_traveling_to_Greece-Bari_Province_of_Bari_Puglia.html
I've not yet been vaccinated so will need testing but I don't mind losing a few hours in Bari (or a day, or whatever it takes) if that means the race can go ahead this year, rather than staring at maps trying to find another underwhelming backup plan for the summer.
Stay safe, hope to see you all in Brest
Jamie
Have you let Anna know of this? That changes the game a lot of it's that easy.
J
Post by: JamieO on 20 May, 2021, 10:30:04 pm
Hi all - longtime reader here, first time poster :)
I agree Anna's email today left me a bit less confident but the Covid testing should hopefully not be a major issue:
France: PCR test will be completed before the start so no race delay
Italy: from what I understand Italy accepts rapid lateral flow tests which are free and fast https://www.medicspot.co.uk/covid-test/italy
Greece: it looks like you can get PCR tests in Bari 7 days/week for €62 with results in a few hours https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g187874-i799-k13395860-Covid_test_in_Bari_for_traveling_to_Greece-Bari_Province_of_Bari_Puglia.html
I've not yet been vaccinated so will need testing but I don't mind losing a few hours in Bari (or a day, or whatever it takes) if that means the race can go ahead this year, rather than staring at maps trying to find another underwhelming backup plan for the summer.
Stay safe, hope to see you all in Brest
Jamie
Have you let Anna know of this? That changes the game a lot of it's that easy.
J
Yeah I submitted her feedback form with comments
Fingers crossed ;D
Post by: morbihan on 21 May, 2021, 01:20:51 am
I must confess that when the email arrived today I started reading it thinking that the event would be a "go" with the opening up of Europe that's been announced in the press recently. I was a little taken aback when reading on. I'm a little out of the loop on events over in Europe while living on this small rock the last 2 years in the Truman Show part 2.
I can see Anna's conundrum though. She is the very epitome of "fair" and its a minefield that she has to negotiate.. I trust her implicitly to make the hard calls and will respect whatever that decision may be.
I have been double vaxed and would happily race under whatever the regs are. I also appreciate, though, that others haven't and in a race that guides itself on the fundamental principles of fair play and equality it may be deemed to be unsolvable.
What will be will be. Heres hoping that we all meet in Brest, and if not then at a place and time yet TBC.
Jonah. x
Post by: mattc on 21 May, 2021, 07:27:48 am
Denmark are still the winners of the Euro footy when Yugoslavia were excluded.
This is a bike ride first, isn't it?
Post by: Frank9755 on 21 May, 2021, 09:49:00 am
That's a good point about fairness. These things are never completely fair. Some people get injured and can't start, get hit by cars or bitten by dogs. Some can't get time off and some can't afford to take part, and so on. The Greek ferry being so long and late in the race already introduced a significant level of unfairness, and the test for Greece sounds like it just adds a bit more to it rather than creating a new problem where there wasn't a bit of a one already.
Probably a bit late now but, if they moved the finish to Sicily instead of Greece, it would get rid of the main issue, and be a lot more scenic too.
I think the NC4000 is more likely to go ahead as I get the feeling the organisers are desperate to make it happen and I suspect they won't have the same fairness concerns. They said a couple of weeks ago that they thought it was 99% likely to happen, which I thought was over-optimistic but indicative of intent. I put it at about 60% then.
If it does happen, with 9 border crossings, testing could become a real chore. And it's not clear (to me at least) that Brits are going to be able to go to Europe given the Indian variant issue currently blowing up in our faces. With 10 countries, it only takes one to say no for me to have to DNS.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 21 May, 2021, 02:09:02 pm
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1395723427600900098
Quote
The EU has put off a decision to exempt vaccinated UK travellers from travel restrictions into the EU due to concerns about the prevalence of the Indian Covid variant, sources have said.
That could change things...
J
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 May, 2021, 07:58:34 pm
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57256859
That swings things further...
J
Post by: JamieO on 27 May, 2021, 07:57:23 am
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57256859
That swings things further...
J
The article says "Last week, the EU agreed on a pass to allow travel across the bloc's 27 countries for all those who have been fully vaccinated with an approved vaccine, recently tested negative or recovered from an infection. It is expected to launch by July."
I wonder if this travel pass would override the 7 day quarantine rule?
Post by: Ivo on 27 May, 2021, 08:58:48 am
Post by: quixoticgeek on 27 May, 2021, 09:55:33 am
Email from Lost dot, race suspended to 2022. Cost will go up by 75gbp to cover extra costs to lost dot.
Seems very reasonable and sensible. It's a shame, but I understand why they have done it.
I guess new route time.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 27 May, 2021, 12:37:47 pm
I wonder if they will flip back to the 2020 route for next year?
Post by: postrestant on 27 May, 2021, 12:40:16 pm
25% think possible
38% not possible
rest unsure
I'm a bit surprised at the low percentage of possible -- I imagined it would be more evenly split (but then I suppose one could say it is quite evenly split, excluding the don't knows)
Post by: morbihan on 30 May, 2021, 01:19:43 pm
I thought things were heading in the right direction and convinced myself that the race would likely go ahead and then the new variant seemed to throw a spanner in the works.
I have a spot on TPR which is still a few months away so at least something on the horizon.
We have flights booked to get off the Island July. Plan to head to our place in France and do some casual riding instead together now the race is off. If the quarantine rules are still in place then likely stay in UK and perhaps do the King Alfred Way or something else low key and fun.
Back to TCR I would imagine they will revert to the original route via the Balkans next year. If so I won't be sorry to see the ferry go, Im with ranks on the issues there. The route planning for the new route at least put the Appenines on the radar. Something to add to the mental calendar for a future tour, it looked super interesting.
See you in 2022 :-(. Or in the Pyrenees if any of you switch out your entries.
Post by: JasonWSM on 01 October, 2021, 03:01:52 am
I’ve swapped my backup lights since 2018 but sticking to my dynamo and power pack backup. Also opting for 28mm tyres and a secure kit lock down for the Roubaix preparation. I can see the first 4/5 days being reasonably flat before the Alps and fun ascents truly begin if previous route is reintroduced? Anyone else
Lucky enough to have got a place in the race?
Post by: morbihan on 30 October, 2021, 12:47:02 pm
https://www.rouleur.cc/pages/rouleur-live
Post by: morbihan on 04 November, 2021, 05:45:59 pm
https://www.transcontinental.cc
Post by: quixoticgeek on 04 November, 2021, 06:44:13 pm
I need to spend some time plotting routes to work out what it all means tho. Getting over the alps is going to be a fun challenge.
Edit:
Now I've had a bit more of a look, it appears that going by the min distances from Lost Dot, total distance is 4100km. Which may explain the 16 days for the finish control closure, rather than the more typical 15.
J
Post by: Ivo on 04 November, 2021, 08:50:23 pm
Post by: Frank9755 on 05 November, 2021, 06:36:36 am
I think it's a better route than the original 2020 version. G'bergen is a much better place to start than Brest, and the cobbles didn't do anything for me. The ride across Germany will have far more routing options than there were for the one across northern France, as it was constrained by the coast. Burgas is a lovely place for the finish.
CP2 - CP3 is very similar to the 2016 race so the same routing decisions will need to be made. I took the coastal option then, before I'd heard of the Bora wind! But, again, there are multiple options here so interesting. And there are options for the CP3-4 section - this was the bit that I did most work on two years ago.
I expect the rules on which roads in Romania are allowed might evolve as time goes by.
So an interesting route and one for those who enjoy route-planning!
Post by: morbihan on 05 November, 2021, 02:35:37 pm
Post by: Ivo on 05 November, 2021, 07:25:23 pm
The D4 Radveg looks to be a pretty direct W to E. if lumpy.
And certainly won't be via the fastest roads.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 22 November, 2021, 07:15:48 pm
Austria has changed the law to require covid vaccinations. No idea how that is going to work for tourists, but might be something to be aware of.
J
Post by: rogerzilla on 23 November, 2021, 08:08:46 am
Post by: Frank9755 on 17 January, 2022, 08:01:46 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 January, 2022, 08:05:16 pm
I'm in :)
Welcome back!
J
Post by: morbihan on 18 January, 2022, 02:53:10 pm
I'm in :)
:) :) :)
Armed with some great local knowledge to get expediently across Germany.
See you in G.berg.
Post by: morbihan on 14 February, 2022, 02:19:13 pm
Do you think the off road transalpine parcour may not be a game changer?
https://www.komoot.com/highlight/3902003
Ive got the tires and the gearing, but possibly not the ideal bb clearance.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 February, 2022, 02:21:40 pm
Frank, with the brief back and forth about bike weight & set up where we diverge on opinion.
Do you think the off road transalpine parcour may not be a game changer?
https://www.komoot.com/highlight/3902003
The big decision point for me is: do i go down it, or up it...
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 14 February, 2022, 03:15:42 pm
We need clarification if it is up, down or either.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 February, 2022, 03:21:40 pm
I think, first of all, it's a decision for Anna!
We need clarification if it is up, down or either.
It can be done in either direction.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 14 February, 2022, 03:23:14 pm
Frank, with the brief back and forth about bike weight & set up where we diverge on opinion.
Do you think the off road transalpine parcour may not be a game changer?
https://www.komoot.com/highlight/3902003
Ive got the tires and the gearing, but possibly not the ideal bb clearance.
I think these parcours are a bit of a red herring. It's about 1% of the total distance. OK a bit more as a % of total time, but I'd rather have the optimal setup for the other 99% (or 97%)of the race, then just get by with what I've got on the crazy bit. I will walk the harder bits anyway as its better and faster not to crash than to save a few minutes, so even less to be gained.
I'd be surprised if anyone rode the whole Serbian weather station parcours last time - the steepest bits were too hard going up and too risky coming down.
Post by: Frank9755 on 14 February, 2022, 03:24:13 pm
I think, first of all, it's a decision for Anna!
We need clarification if it is up, down or either.
It can be done in either direction.
J
Is that confirmed now? I was going on the discussion on the Facebook group, but not looked at it for a few days.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 14 February, 2022, 03:32:07 pm
I think, first of all, it's a decision for Anna!
We need clarification if it is up, down or either.
It can be done in either direction.
J
Is that confirmed now? I was going on the discussion on the Facebook group, but not looked at it for a few days.
Ooh. Hadn't noticed that the following text is on the version of the manual for 2020, but not for 2022
"*The parcours can be approached from either direction, starting in the West (A) or in the East (B)"
I can't imagine why they would change that.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 14 February, 2022, 03:48:14 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 May, 2022, 06:20:06 pm
Clarification has happened. It's either direction.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 03 May, 2022, 01:22:55 pm
The positioning of the control (down the other side of the pass for those who've not seen the manual) makes it a more interesting question than I had previously thought!
Post by: morbihan on 03 June, 2022, 07:49:04 pm
We will watch all your dots and cheer you on from the sidelines. Sorry not to be part of the adventure.
Post by: Frank9755 on 07 June, 2022, 10:09:51 am
I hope all goes well and look forward to meeting you one day!
Post by: morbihan on 21 June, 2022, 03:39:19 pm
Out of Transpyrenees too unfortunately as there are 5 months of treatments ahead taking us through the year. We will get through it though.
Meantime its been revealed that Richard Strasser is entered into this years edition of TCR. That will be interesting to watch.
Post by: Frank9755 on 22 June, 2022, 11:23:08 am
Thanks Frank.
Out of Transpyrenees too unfortunately as there are 5 months of treatments ahead taking us through the year. We will get through it though.
Meantime its been revealed that Richard Strasser is entered into this years edition of TCR. That will be interesting to watch.
Oh dear, these things do have a nasty habit of taking over your diary!
Christoph - but yes, very interesting. I read his book earlier this year and if there is one thing I am sure of it's that he will be well prepared.
He's a professional so he must have got his sponsors comfortable with it. Maybe it shows that the unsupported scene is getting bigger than supported racing now.
It's hard to imagine that he won't win it, maybe by good margin, with Ulrich Bartolameus pretty certain for second. I don't know who else fast has entered but they can only be fighting for
[EDIT] I do now know of someone else pretty quick likely to be on the start sheet - will be an exciting race!
I might not make it to Geraadsbergen either. My mother in law has some health issues which might mean I need to stay to look after my daughter during July. I won't know for sure for a couple of weeks, but I'm down with a bit of summer flu at the moment, so training is definitely suspended for a few days at least!
Post by: quixoticgeek on 22 June, 2022, 11:57:27 am
Went to GP this morning to get my doctors letter.
Law has changed since 2019 and my family doctor is not allowed to do it anymore. So now I have now made an appointment with a specialist sports doctor on Monday. Which means another €120...
J
Post by: Lightning Phil on 22 June, 2022, 12:44:34 pm
Meantime its been revealed that Richard Strasser is entered into this years edition of TCR. That will be interesting to watch.
I know of Christoph Strasser from RAAM and 24hr records. But I assume Richard Strasser is not related, and from what I can see he is a pro cyclist.
Post by: Frank9755 on 23 June, 2022, 04:09:46 pm
Post by: Frank9755 on 23 June, 2022, 04:12:40 pm
Went to GP this morning to get my doctors letter.
Law has changed since 2019 and my family doctor is not allowed to do it anymore. So now I have now made an appointment with a specialist sports doctor on Monday. Which means another €120...
J
These things are a real pain. Why do they need them, I wonder?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 23 June, 2022, 04:30:39 pm
These things are a real pain. Why do they need them, I wonder?
Italian Law.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 23 June, 2022, 09:02:05 pm
I'd like to know what law actually requires what, and how TCR falls under it. The original route for 2020 didn't pass through Italy.
Post by: Karla on 23 June, 2022, 09:18:01 pm
Strasser though? Wow :o
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 23 June, 2022, 09:21:46 pm
“To participate in an Italian event, it is compulsory to have a sporting medical certificate which certifies that you are fit to practise the sport of cycling at a competitive level.”
Post by: morbihan on 24 June, 2022, 11:48:33 am
Thanks Frank.
Out of Transpyrenees too unfortunately as there are 5 months of treatments ahead taking us through the year. We will get through it though.
Meantime its been revealed that Richard Strasser is entered into this years edition of TCR. That will be interesting to watch.
Oh dear, these things do have a nasty habit of taking over your diary!
Christoph - but yes, very interesting. I read his book earlier this year and if there is one thing I am sure of it's that he will be well prepared.
He's a professional so he must have got his sponsors comfortable with it. Maybe it shows that the unsupported scene is getting bigger than supported racing now.
It's hard to imagine that he won't win it, maybe by good margin, with Ulrich Bartolameus pretty certain for second. I don't know who else fast has entered but they can only be fighting for third place - barring injuries and 'events', that is!
I might not make it to Geraadsbergen either. My mother in law has some health issues which might mean I need to stay to look after my daughter during July. I won't know for sure for a couple of weeks, but I'm down with a bit of summer flu at the moment, so training is definitely suspended for a few days at least!
Sorry to hear Frank. Family first of course. Maybe you can find an alternate event or challenge that fits round the unfolding events.
I'll likely look ahead to TPR next year for a race. Next Summer will be prioritised towards having a big cycling trip with my partner after all the shit they will be going through in the next few months.
Meantime Ive ordered 1000 small panels and will be switching to an ultra painting project to keep me occupied. Shelter in place Groundhog Day.
Post by: Byronius Maximus on 24 June, 2022, 12:33:37 pm
These things are a real pain. Why do they need them, I wonder?
Italian Law.
J
It is also required for Trans Pyrenees (same organiser) and that goes nowhere near Italy (obviously). My guess is that it's a requirement of their insurer.
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 24 June, 2022, 12:47:29 pm
"A medical certificate is required for competitive races in France.
This certificate has to comply with the following criteria.
The medical certificate is valid for one year. That means that your certificate can't be older than one year on the date of the race.
Example of a valid medical certificate: The Trail du Grand Ballon will take place on the 2nd of May, 2020. Your medical certificate is established by a physician on the 2nd of May, 2019 or later.
Example of a non-valid medical certificate: The Trail du Grand Ballon will take place on the 2nd of May, 2020. Your medical certificate is established by a physician on the 1st of May, 2019 or earlier.
The medical certificate is established by a general practitioner or a physician and must contains his/her stamp.
A medical certificate without stamp is a non-valid medical certificate wich means you can't participate in the race.
The medical certificate must be understandable by the organizer. A medical certificate in a language other than French or English is probably not understandable for the organizer and is consequently not valid. We recommend a medical certificate in French or in English.
You can download an example below on this page.
The medical certificate must contains the next phrase in the language in wich the certificate is established: "...establishes that there are no contraindications to the practice of competitive sport."
A valid FFA licence or a valid Pass J'aime courir can replace the medical certificate."
I can't think of other countries where a medical certificate is a legal requirement but some organisers still request one for insurance purposes.
Post by: morbihan on 24 June, 2022, 03:05:37 pm
Christoph Strasser has entered TCR. I assumed 'Richard' was a typo.
oops yes. I must have been listening to the Space Odyssea music score when I typed that! :)
Another rider to watch, I think, would be Cara Dickinson. Puts in incredible amount of hilly km's and can ride fast too.
Post by: Notfromrugby on 24 June, 2022, 03:11:10 pm
Christoph Strasser has entered TCR. I assumed 'Richard' was a typo.
oops yes. I must have been listening to the Space Odyssea music score when I typed that! :)
Another rider to watch, I think, would be Cara Dickinson. Puts in incredible amount of hilly km's and can ride fast too.
How about the 2019 winner? No longer competitive/racing?
Post by: morbihan on 24 June, 2022, 03:22:44 pm
Christoph Strasser has entered TCR. I assumed 'Richard' was a typo.
oops yes. I must have been listening to the Space Odyssea music score when I typed that! :)
Another rider to watch, I think, would be Cara Dickinson. Puts in incredible amount of hilly km's and can ride fast too.
How about the 2019 winner? No longer competitive/racing?
Oh yes, good point, very much in the frame too. Fiona is still putting in loads of mileage. Super fast climber like Ulrich. Im sure she will be even stronger 3 years down the road, and she knows how to win!
Then there is Pawel. I think Ian To is racing as well, possibly with Igebord...or perhaps solo, not sure.
It looks to have the potential to be the toughest race yet to make the GC cut off. Longer and so much climbing.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 26 June, 2022, 06:49:40 pm
It looks to have the potential to be the toughest race yet to make the GC cut off. Longer and so much climbing.
I've got 4300km and 50000m of climbing. And that's with a route optimised for less climbing.
I think the number making the cut off is going to be the lowest yet.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 June, 2022, 09:04:29 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 27 June, 2022, 01:48:33 pm
Medical passed. And as I was paying they said I should forward the invoice to my health insurance who normally cover these things. Which is useful.
J
Post by: felstedrider on 28 June, 2022, 09:27:01 am
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 June, 2022, 10:18:30 am
I assume there's a start list somewhere given the chat on here but I'm finding it a bit difficult to track down.
Not yet. Sometime after the 8th or July. As there's still admin hoops to jump through before then.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 28 June, 2022, 11:07:18 am
Post by: felstedrider on 28 June, 2022, 11:12:54 am
It will be interesting. I keep hearing lots of rumours. They can't all be false!
:)
Post by: morbihan on 28 June, 2022, 12:26:10 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 28 June, 2022, 05:02:25 pm
And another edition of the race manual. And I've had to change my route in Bulgaria. Doh.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 30 June, 2022, 02:41:15 pm
I'm now at 4,160 / 44,700.
Don't fancy your route, QG!
Apparently Ulrich B is at sub 4,000km, which I think sounds optimistic.
Post by: morbihan on 30 June, 2022, 10:03:15 pm
No secrets to give away there as its not happening.
Post by: Ivo on 01 July, 2022, 06:12:50 am
I was tanking straight East South of Brussels to Bonn over the Rhine and then across country to CP1 on my projected route. Loads of up and down on bike paths and back roads as I didn't want to take on the Essen Dortmund Metropolis. I also routed to cut way inland rounding the corner from Italy into the Balkans, steering clear of the coast and hitting the quieter hills. I didn't refine and tally up a final Vert meter total. Just as well.
No secrets to give away there as its not happening.
North of Brussels is the faster route, especially if you take the long bikepaths along canals. Then cross the Netherlands north of Sittard and stay east of the big open pit mines. Best is to enter the Rhinevally south of the Ahr river.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 July, 2022, 03:21:05 pm
The race manual did change things a bit, and my total climbing came down a bit when I merged all my files into one.
I'm now at 4,160 / 44,700.
Don't fancy your route, QG!
Apparently Ulrich B is at sub 4,000km, which I think sounds optimistic.
Another afternoon spent fettling routes. 4342km 46230m climb. Still not happy with CP3->CP4. There's a round about I share with an E road. There's a pavement, so I can walk round it. But that's going to be a pain.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 02 July, 2022, 11:29:50 pm
I assume there's a start list somewhere given the chat on here but I'm finding it a bit difficult to track down.
Actually there is a list! It's to do with tracker hire, and linked from the V1 manual so may have been around for a couple of months.
It has all the names I'd heard, plus a few other interesting ones. Will be a strong field at the front.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14TQMh5qdE92X7V1GHMCdciF8w4BplaI9FlnmT6ua4P0/edit#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14TQMh5qdE92X7V1GHMCdciF8w4BplaI9FlnmT6ua4P0/edit#gid=0)
Post by: morbihan on 03 July, 2022, 02:20:26 am
That list doesn't differentiate between TPR and TCR though no?
While my partner is on the chemo train these next few months and we navigate through those particular challenging checkpoints Ive had an inkling of the worry our significant others are subjected to. To that end I may not reapply for the TCR in the foreseeable. While she is the first person to be bellowing at me to get up and get cracking during the race, I know that the big roads, the traffic etc weigh heavily. I'll likely consider switching to something less road orientated such as the French Divide to remove that issue. TPR will still not the bill though.
While the pointy end appears to be loaded with horsepower, the beauty of the TCR is the fact that there are multiple races within races all through the entries.
Mike Hall really was a genius.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 03 July, 2022, 10:34:39 am
Post by: Frank9755 on 03 July, 2022, 11:29:30 am
Post by: Frank9755 on 03 July, 2022, 11:31:27 am
That list doesn't differentiate between TPR and TCR though no?
Separate tabs for each.
I understand what you are saying, these kind of life events put everything else in perspective. I hope all goes well with you both.
Post by: felstedrider on 06 July, 2022, 08:42:53 pm
I assume there's a start list somewhere given the chat on here but I'm finding it a bit difficult to track down.
Actually there is a list! It's to do with tracker hire, and linked from the V1 manual so may have been around for a couple of months.
It has all the names I'd heard, plus a few other interesting ones. Will be a strong field at the front.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14TQMh5qdE92X7V1GHMCdciF8w4BplaI9FlnmT6ua4P0/edit#gid=0 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14TQMh5qdE92X7V1GHMCdciF8w4BplaI9FlnmT6ua4P0/edit#gid=0)
At least that confirms our other discussion.
*edit* and he’s admitted to it now anyway…..
Post by: quixoticgeek on 06 July, 2022, 08:51:36 pm
Cap numbers are out.
I get 67 again.
J
Post by: Frank9755 on 07 July, 2022, 09:45:10 am
Post by: Karla on 07 July, 2022, 11:06:49 am
Post by: morbihan on 07 July, 2022, 11:57:33 am
Post by: morbihan on 07 July, 2022, 12:32:49 pm
Bunny hopping each other through the Alpine valleys with Jason S and Malte.
Doug M, the slower paced rarely stopping dynamo popping up all through the Alpine section.
Sharing a coffee and a bite with Gianluca on the Austrian/czech border before heading our separate ways.
Meeting Alister D, first on the France/Switzerland transition, then later on in Albania as he came down out of the hills above lake Ohid after taking a bad road and having a rough night.
Racing against Nico C, the man mountain, all through the night coming back down through Czech after CP3, then meeting up again at the 4th parcour in Bosnia, before I went off piste and got lost.
You guys are in for one heck of an adventure.
Post by: Notfromrugby on 07 July, 2022, 01:05:11 pm
Well this is exciting, we have another forumite riding: 24hourmaths!
Is that Broadwith?
Post by: morbihan on 07 July, 2022, 01:13:06 pm
Likewise Pawel who has done a nuts number of races this year also in.
Two for the pointy end.
Then Bjorn is having another crack.
Thats a lot of firepower.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 07 July, 2022, 01:42:11 pm
Post by: Lightning Phil on 07 July, 2022, 01:44:34 pm
Post by: Lightning Phil on 07 July, 2022, 01:46:04 pm
Post by: Frank9755 on 07 July, 2022, 09:03:39 pm
I see Parky is on the list.
And his clubmate Paul Alderson, who has had at least one go at this before
Post by: Diesel on 07 July, 2022, 09:19:16 pm
Well this is exciting, we have another forumite riding: 24hourmaths!
Is that Broadwith?
Yes
Post by: morbihan on 24 July, 2022, 10:26:08 am
Ride safe and have one heck of an adventure.
Post by: Frank9755 on 24 July, 2022, 05:28:58 pm
We've just had the briefing where I bumped into QG and carrots others. Not long to go now....
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 24 July, 2022, 07:25:00 pm
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 24 July, 2022, 07:27:11 pm
Post by: Karla on 24 July, 2022, 08:31:37 pm
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 24 July, 2022, 09:01:52 pm
??? Why can I not see the tracking map in Safari even though I do have WebGL enabled?
The answer to that is that you need Safari technology preview to use WebGL and hence see the map. To use Safari TP, you need Safari 16. To get Safari 16, you need OS Monterey 12.5. So that’s where I’ve been for the last hour.
Post by: mattc on 24 July, 2022, 10:47:38 pm
212 is Vilas Silverton, veteran of numerous v long Audaxes. Rarely at the sharp end, but highly tenacious!
Post by: morbihan on 25 July, 2022, 11:32:31 am
I'm struggling to understand the data on the new tracker site. The speeds at the front seem impossible. Its either glitchy or there is a whole new level of pace from previous editions.
Interesting to see how disparate the routes were right from the get go. Two distinct streams now. One North then E through the Industrial corridor and one South then E over the hills via Bonn. I had actually selected a route on the Southern axis and thought I'd be the odd rider out. Apparently not.
Post by: JonBuoy on 25 July, 2022, 11:47:27 am
Post by: farfetched on 25 July, 2022, 02:38:07 pm
Fiona Kolbinger, who is doing well again, only 14mins for example. Amazing!!
Post by: morbihan on 25 July, 2022, 04:34:55 pm
Ulrich has a purported moving speed well over 35 kph. I can't fathom this.
It took me 2 days to bang out 700km on #5. he's going to be through that and beyond on day 1. Holy cow.
Strasser seems to have started fairly sedately for his pedigree.
A lot of very aero TT type set ups out there at the front. it will be interesting to see how that plays out when the rough stuff arrives.
Fiona has a super minimal set up. She looks very aero with the bars set low and is motoring.
Post by: morbihan on 25 July, 2022, 04:36:36 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 July, 2022, 04:59:24 pm
Post by: Lightning Phil on 25 July, 2022, 07:55:53 pm
Post by: Lightning Phil on 25 July, 2022, 08:05:18 pm
Post by: Lightning Phil on 25 July, 2022, 09:48:17 pm
Post by: morbihan on 26 July, 2022, 01:22:00 am
Post by: Ivo on 26 July, 2022, 06:15:08 am
Fiona is taking a very Southerly route. Its her back yard though, I wonder if she is using local knowledge for a more expeditious path?
Certainly not for my area. She went straight through Aachen city centre, located in an old volcano. The shorter and flatter routeskirtst he crater edge and doesn't dive deep into the crater. Besides Aachen has very bad bikepaths (I haven't seen one yet which conforms to German laws and regulations)
Post by: Lightning Phil on 26 July, 2022, 08:28:22 am
Post by: Tim Hall on 26 July, 2022, 12:24:11 pm
Frank is shown as 136th having covered 769km
quixoticgeek is shown as 62nd with 294km
Is it just gremlins in the works? I quioxoticgeek is OK.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 26 July, 2022, 12:32:59 pm
I'm having trouble understading the live tracker.
Frank is shown as 136th having covered 769km
quixoticgeek is shown as 62nd with 294km
Is it just gremlins in the works? I quioxoticgeek is OK.
Different classifications, men and women?
Post by: Zed43 on 26 July, 2022, 12:39:58 pm
Post by: akin on 26 July, 2022, 12:42:08 pm
You can click on the distance tab to reorder them in terms of distance ridden for a rough gauge of positions at present. Although as its free routing you can be further ahead with less distance and vice versa.
Post by: JonBuoy on 26 July, 2022, 12:44:38 pm
I'm having trouble understading the live tracker.
Frank is shown as 136th having covered 769km
quixoticgeek is shown as 62nd with 294km
Is it just gremlins in the works? I quioxoticgeek is OK.
Different classifications, men and women?
Nope. Definitely not.
The positions are impossible to calculate until people reach CP1 as it is not a fixed course. The quoted positions for the people who are yet to reach a CP are merely in order of cap number (ignoring any DNS and DNF).
At the moment seven people have reached CP1 and they have positions 1 to 7 based on arrival time. Fiona is 8th as she is cap001, Ben is 9th as he is cap002 etc.
Post by: akin on 26 July, 2022, 12:57:30 pm
24hourmaths seemed to take a more decent rest stop and was still holding a 30km/h moving average which is pretty solid for 32 hours of riding.
Post by: telstarbox on 26 July, 2022, 03:30:27 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2022/jul/26/bike-transcontinental-cycle-race-tcr-in-pictures
Post by: Nuncio on 27 July, 2022, 06:48:34 am
Post by: Lightning Phil on 27 July, 2022, 09:29:24 am
Post by: psyclist on 27 July, 2022, 09:40:02 am
Fiona had her tracker and wallet stolen whilst sleeping. Wallet recovered and cards stopped, tracker not recovered. She’s still riding.
That explains why her dot was not where I expected it to be. Not a nice experience I am sure.
Hopefully the theft was just a chance occurrence, and not somebody using her tracked position, which is a risk that has been highlighted by James Hayden.
Post by: morbihan on 27 July, 2022, 11:25:48 am
I love her attitude that she is going to crack on regardless.
She's in stealth mode now like the invisible power up on zwift racing.
I wouldn't put it past her to pop up somewhere along CP2 parcour at the head of the race.
One of the guys racing in this one had his bike pinched on V2V while dozing. He did manage to get it back a few hours later though.
Its early days yet but so far Im getting the distinct feeling that this race is far and away the fastest and strongest pretty much throughout the entire field.
Looking at some of the previous mid packing and up contenders, they are down the field relatively to prior editions.
Lots of data to crunch there for a more accurate summary. Im looking to see Chris Whites (ride far) report once he has dug in to it.
With regards to that early split from the Rhine and East I feel vindicated in my choice when route planning to take the hillier Southern route rather than the metropolis to the North. A good few reports on SM about painstaking compulsory bike paths and traffic lights while weaving through all the sprawl.
Post by: morbihan on 27 July, 2022, 11:41:47 am
Its a shame he didn't start a few days earlier as he would have been intersecting the stream of TCR riders around the Rhine valley.
He will be crossing their wakes between Cologne and Bonn.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 27 July, 2022, 12:50:04 pm
Fiona had her tracker and wallet stolen whilst sleeping. Wallet recovered and cards stopped, tracker not recovered. She’s still riding.
That explains why her dot was not where I expected it to be. Not a nice experience I am sure.
Hopefully the theft was just a chance occurrence, and not somebody using her tracked position, which is a risk that has been highlighted by James Hayden.
Kristof used to turn his tracker off a little while before he slept. Why is why people watching thought he never slept when winning, but on his blog he explains he used to sleep about 4 hours most nights of TCR.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 27 July, 2022, 12:58:30 pm
Post by: Notfromrugby on 27 July, 2022, 01:17:46 pm
Angus Young who is solo TT'ing the Europe Divide is already in Hamburg.
Its a shame he didn't start a few days earlier as he would have been intersecting the stream of TCR riders around the Rhine valley.
He will be crossing their wakes between Cologne and Bonn.
Is he riding in a schoolboy uniform? ;D
Post by: Basil on 27 July, 2022, 01:48:24 pm
Is he riding in a schoolboy uniform? ;D
;D
Post by: Karla on 27 July, 2022, 02:52:00 pm
Angus Young who is solo TT'ing the Europe Divide is already in Hamburg.
Its a shame he didn't start a few days earlier as he would have been intersecting the stream of TCR riders around the Rhine valley.
He will be crossing their wakes between Cologne and Bonn.
Is he riding in a schoolboy uniform? ;D
More importantly, is he riding all night long?
Post by: morbihan on 27 July, 2022, 03:49:12 pm
If he is I hope he has tucked his tie into his bibs!Angus Young who is solo TT'ing the Europe Divide is already in Hamburg.
Its a shame he didn't start a few days earlier as he would have been intersecting the stream of TCR riders around the Rhine valley.
He will be crossing their wakes between Cologne and Bonn.
Is he riding in a schoolboy uniform? ;D
He could lean over on those aero Bars a Touch Too Much and catch it in the front wheel. Yup stow it away safe If you (don't) Want Blood, Get Shot Down In Flames, bounce off The Highway To hell and end up Beating around The Bush.
Post by: Shugg McGraw on 27 July, 2022, 04:00:35 pm
I'm having trouble understading the live tracker.
Frank is shown as 136th having covered 769km
quixoticgeek is shown as 62nd with 294km
Is it just gremlins in the works? I quioxoticgeek is OK.
Different classifications, men and women?
If you tap on Distance it reorders into something you can understand.
Post by: morbihan on 27 July, 2022, 05:01:57 pm
I also had a crappy experience on TCR05 thereabouts. After leaving Reutte I took a trail across lake Plansee that was beautiful but unrideable. Through Garmish and down the way that Ulrich is headed. It was a pretty minor road but it was jammers with weekend traffic. Caravans, campers etc giving me no room. I bottled out and found a trail running along a stream parallel to the road and followed that instead, ultimately having to scale fences etc to crack on. Urgh!
I dropped down to Zwirl to get to Innsbruck and the Brenner. A real steep ramp down to the valley. I bumped into Peter Wohler trudging up the other way walking his bike up the 16% .He was doing North Cape 4000.
There is another route further east via Bad Tolz we did a few years back on the Munich to Venice bike path that's lovely and would be a good option to land up east of Innsbruck but is probably a bit agricultural for the racing snakes up front.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 27 July, 2022, 05:15:07 pm
Post by: Lightning Phil on 27 July, 2022, 05:16:30 pm
Post by: Edd on 27 July, 2022, 10:18:51 pm
Having ridden the parcours already does he have to ride the whole thing again and get the stamp along the way, or can he go get his stamp and exit on the easiest route?
Post by: StuAff on 27 July, 2022, 11:04:21 pm
Just seen 165 didn't stamp his brevet card on CP1 :facepalm:He has to backtrack to CP1, not the beginning of the parcours, whether he can then detour, pass. I'd guess not though.
Having ridden the parcours already does he have to ride the whole thing again and get the stamp along the way, or can he go get his stamp and exit on the easiest route?
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 28 July, 2022, 08:11:41 am
James Houston going well on his Brompton, nearly 1000km done, despite needing to get a new rear triangle after finding a crack in what I think was a ti triangle.
Post by: Notfromrugby on 28 July, 2022, 10:56:19 am
Frank9755 going pretty well - 95th, daily average 377km. Gulp.
James Houston going well on his Brompton, nearly 1000km done, despite needing to get a new rear triangle after finding a crack in what I think was a ti triangle.
Wasn't Fiona doing 400km a day last time and that was good enough for a win... has the field got so strong that now 377km is only good enough for top 100? Unless this is the fast part of the route...
Post by: mzjo on 28 July, 2022, 11:24:40 am
Post by: Tim Hall on 28 July, 2022, 12:02:59 pm
Frank's twitter feed said he's going to reroute the leg towards checkpoint 2 as the combination of narrow A roads, lorries and night riding didn't seem particularly life enhancing. He said this would probably slow him down.Frank9755 going pretty well - 95th, daily average 377km. Gulp.
James Houston going well on his Brompton, nearly 1000km done, despite needing to get a new rear triangle after finding a crack in what I think was a ti triangle.
Wasn't Fiona doing 400km a day last time and that was good enough for a win... has the field got so strong that now 377km is only good enough for top 100? Unless this is the fast part of the route...
Post by: morbihan on 28 July, 2022, 01:49:40 pm
Frank's twitter feed said he's going to reroute the leg towards checkpoint 2 as the combination of narrow A roads, lorries and night riding didn't seem particularly life enhancing. He said this would probably slow him down.Frank9755 going pretty well - 95th, daily average 377km. Gulp.
James Houston going well on his Brompton, nearly 1000km done, despite needing to get a new rear triangle after finding a crack in what I think was a ti triangle.
Wasn't Fiona doing 400km a day last time and that was good enough for a win... has the field got so strong that now 377km is only good enough for top 100? Unless this is the fast part of the route...
Smart move.
I pulled the pin on TCR 05 half way round in Slovakia. Coming out of Nitra on a Monday morning in rain with huge trucks bearing down on me, I was out of my comfort zone and bottled it. I didn't have the requisite knowledge to reroute on the fly and bailed.
I made sure to bone up on komoot and routing with the phone app the following year for #6. still got lost to sh*t but at least I could reroute.
Lesson well learned.
Post by: morbihan on 28 July, 2022, 01:54:53 pm
I had routed up through Bolzano Lienz on familiar routing with cool scenery and Nice bike paths. Im curios to see if anyway else makes that call
Post by: Lightning Phil on 28 July, 2022, 09:38:00 pm
Post by: psyclist on 29 July, 2022, 08:29:14 am
"Cap #116, Jason Smith, was hit by a driver at dusk last night and managed to make it out with only some broken bones and bruising. He’s back on the road and continuing his ride with an iron will and some minor damage to the bike. Go Jason!"
Obviously feel sorry for Jason to be in that situation, but have they got this right ... some broken bones and still riding?
https://dotwatcher.cc/race/tcr-no8 (https://dotwatcher.cc/race/tcr-no8)
Post by: JonBuoy on 29 July, 2022, 08:41:06 am
From the horse's mouth:
Quote
24 hours ago I woke up in hospital feeling very lucky despite my bruises, aches & pains, driver charged, thankfully I have the urge to carry on in the race despite losing so much.
https://twitter.com/ChallengerWSM/status/1552884461292982273
Post by: Tim Hall on 29 July, 2022, 08:44:56 am
Quote
Since the start of the race, I've listened to 1.2GB of podcasts, two audio books, and a season of Cabin pressure... If anyone's wondering what's on the headphones while I'm riding along...(my bold)
Post by: PeterM on 29 July, 2022, 11:29:25 am
Richard Lake fallen right back for reasons unknown
He seems to be podcasting as he goes, which must be a bit of a distraction and time sink
Post by: morbihan on 29 July, 2022, 02:59:49 pm
I had routed via there but without going down on the the Po valley at all, selecting to stay on those lovely bike paths in the Dolomites.
I would wager that Frank may choose a similar route now he has opted to steer clear of the busy roads.
From Ljubljana you can strike out for Banja Luka and use the well ridden TCRno6 route down to the Bosnian Montenegrin border.
The Balkans is a coming, where prices get cheaper, hotels and food tend to be readily available but dog chases and other trip hazards spice things up!
Post by: Ivo on 29 July, 2022, 03:14:50 pm
Interesting to note that Pawel has cut East earlier than the others in the leading charge to head for Ljubljana
I had routed via there but without going down on the the Po valley at all, selecting to stay on those lovely bike paths in the Dolomites.
I would wager that Frank may choose a similar route now he has opted to steer clear of the busy roads.
From Ljubljana you can strike out for Banja Luka and use the well ridden TCRno6 route down to the Bosnian Montenegrin border.
The Balkans is a coming, where prices get cheaper, hotels and food tend to be readily available but dog chases and other trip hazards spice things up!
Adam now also cuts left but via the mountains between the coast and Bihac.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 29 July, 2022, 03:35:27 pm
Richard Lake fallen right back for reasons unknown
He seems to be podcasting as he goes, which must be a bit of a distraction and time sink
The Brompton rider is only 140km behind him. Agree faff and time sink podcasting as you go.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 29 July, 2022, 08:35:19 pm
Post by: Nuncio on 29 July, 2022, 10:04:30 pm
Robin Gemperle, 1st rider out of CP2, seems to have stalled or stopped. I wonder if this, posted by him somewhere, is related: 'arsch fleischwunde no joke.'
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 29 July, 2022, 10:12:51 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 29 July, 2022, 11:06:35 pm
Where are the cut offs listed for the control points ?
Cp1 - 1300 CEST today
Cp2 - 1800 CEST 31st
Cp3 - 0100 CEST 5th
Cp4 - 0300 CEST 8th
Finish - 2200 CEST 9th.
J
Post by: Lightning Phil on 30 July, 2022, 08:42:24 am
Post by: mzjo on 30 July, 2022, 09:33:22 am
The earlier controls seem to have compulsary routing both sides of the control but these seem to mainly follow the flow of the course.
Post by: JonBuoy on 30 July, 2022, 09:45:21 am
Quote
...the route from Pluzine to Zabljak
So it is after the control.
Post by: Ivo on 30 July, 2022, 10:28:49 am
A routing question given that I'm new to following this: for CP3 do they have to follow the compulsary route to the control (ie east-west) or is the compulsary route after the control (control then towards Zabljak)? I would presume it's the first option otherwise there would be no point in cutting inland so early but nice to know. Ulrich would appear to have a good option for the lead!
The earlier controls seem to have compulsary routing both sides of the control but these seem to mainly follow the flow of the course.
Cutting deep inland as Pawel and Fiona do gives you a fast route around Zagreb and down to Banja Luka. Nice well maintained flat roads through a river valley. The route cutting from the coast to Bosnia leads during a long time through a former war zone and has some very nasty hills. OK, around Okucani there's also a former warzone but you cut through the less nasty part of that former warzone.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 30 July, 2022, 10:52:24 am
I've scratched. It's not safe for me to continue riding.
Re the routes: the CP4 parkour can be done in either direction. The rest have a fixed direction.
As Ivo points out. The coastal route I such much hillier. The inland route much flatter. Coastal route runs risk of the Bora winds. The actual difference in terms of distance is not that great. The difference in climbing I a couple of thousand meters or more.
J
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 30 July, 2022, 11:38:48 am
If at some point sharing would help to reflect or you are willing , then I think many of us would like to hear your experience
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 30 July, 2022, 11:51:09 am
Post by: morbihan on 30 July, 2022, 01:45:35 pm
Post by: morbihan on 30 July, 2022, 01:58:06 pm
The guys that cut inland are making gains and Ulrich will have to dog leg back at Brod to get onto the M20. Once past Sarajevo its a smoking fast down hill run to the border. I see AB arriving first and then Strasser who seems to be getting into the swing and is looking menacing. Then I think a toss up between Ulrich and Pawel for 3rd to the parcour.
The ride from the border up the valley to Pluzine shouldn't be too tricky for the strong TT riders like CS. I seem to remember it being no more than 7% (I grovelled up it) I "think" UB probably excels in the steeper stuff. Maybe up Dormitor he will reel the front runners back in?
Who knows...they all have 2500km in their legs on bugger all sleep.
Im routing for Pawel because he is such a beautiful person and has such an incredibly positive attitude.
Post by: rr on 30 July, 2022, 02:31:34 pm
There appears to be a road/trail/path/mountain bike route from Ulinje to C3 that would cut a huge corner, I wonder if anyone will try it?
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Post by: Lightning Phil on 30 July, 2022, 04:56:25 pm
Post by: Pickled Onion on 30 July, 2022, 05:07:57 pm
There appears to be a road/trail/path/mountain bike route from Ulinje to C3 that would cut a huge corner, I wonder if anyone will try it?
OSM seems to think it is a viable (drivable) road with unpaved sections, and there is a border post. Google maps does not agree.
Post by: morbihan on 30 July, 2022, 05:31:31 pm
In the company of Malte and Mathieu. Nice guys.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 30 July, 2022, 06:05:31 pm
Post by: StuAff on 30 July, 2022, 09:32:45 pm
Post by: mzjo on 30 July, 2022, 11:53:47 pm
Is that the trail that Krystian Jakubek has followed? He looks to have cut an enormous corner off. Not far to CP3 for him now. The trail looks to have followed contours pretty closely, at least at the finish so not such a bad option.
There appears to be a road/trail/path/mountain bike route from Ulinje to C3 that would cut a huge corner, I wonder if anyone will try it?
OSM seems to think it is a viable (drivable) road with unpaved sections, and there is a border post. Google maps does not agree.
Post by: rr on 31 July, 2022, 12:55:37 am
Yes that was the one I saw on the map, had no idea of its rideability, judging by his speed it must be pretty good. Makes the route through Mostar competitive.Is that the trail that Krystian Jakubek has followed? He looks to have cut an enormous corner off. Not far to CP3 for him now. The trail looks to have followed contours pretty closely, at least at the finish so not such a bad option.
There appears to be a road/trail/path/mountain bike route from Ulinje to C3 that would cut a huge corner, I wonder if anyone will try it?
OSM seems to think it is a viable (drivable) road with unpaved sections, and there is a border post. Google maps does not agree.
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Post by: Ivo on 31 July, 2022, 02:20:31 am
Post by: Nuncio on 31 July, 2022, 10:02:27 am
Post by: rr on 31 July, 2022, 10:40:59 am
And the 4 following have also taken the short-cut, or variations of it (Robin Gemperle's 's track looks slightly different). Only Ulrich Bartholmoes so far of those choosing the more western route has gone the longer way up to Brod.There are now three versions of the short cut. I expect most people will use it, I'm not sure that the western route makes sense without it.
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Post by: StuAff on 31 July, 2022, 11:48:33 am
Post by: Lightning Phil on 31 July, 2022, 05:14:18 pm
Post by: Lightning Phil on 31 July, 2022, 06:17:23 pm
Post by: Nuncio on 01 August, 2022, 09:58:10 am
Post by: rr on 01 August, 2022, 12:44:19 pm
And the 4 following have also taken the short-cut, or variations of it (Robin Gemperle's 's track looks slightly different). Only Ulrich Bartholmoes so far of those choosing the more western route has gone the longer way up to Brod.Described in the race report as newly tarmaced.
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Post by: rr on 01 August, 2022, 01:16:02 pm
Sent from my motorola edge 20 using Tapatalk
Post by: grams on 01 August, 2022, 02:13:55 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 01 August, 2022, 04:23:11 pm
There’s an alternative possibly easier route to approach the control first by turning north a bit earlier. Which none of the leaders have taken.
Remember: all E roads in Romania are banned. This severely limits routing choices.
J
Post by: morbihan on 01 August, 2022, 04:57:48 pm
There’s an alternative possibly easier route to approach the control first by turning north a bit earlier. Which none of the leaders have taken.
Remember: all E roads in Romania are banned. This severely limits routing choices.
J
I'm hoping that all the racers get it right. It's easy to stray onto a banned road inadvertently. The winner could come down to a penalty corrected time with the leaders all so close.
I got pinged along with a few others on a banned road in Albania. Easily done.
Post by: slugbait on 01 August, 2022, 06:56:55 pm
Remember: all E roads in Romania are banned. This severely limits routing choices.
I've cycled on E-roads in Romania, in particular the E60 from Predeal to Sinaia. There were no alternatives to travel between those two villages. And, you know, it wasn't too bad. Lots of traffic, but the drivers are expecting horse carts and Roma selling stuff in the middle of the road. Their speed was surprisingly sensible. A blanket ban on E-roads seems lazy of the organizers.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 01 August, 2022, 07:21:22 pm
I'm hoping that all the racers get it right. It's easy to stray onto a banned road inadvertently. The winner could come down to a penalty corrected time with the leaders all so close.
I got pinged along with a few others on a banned road in Albania. Easily done.
Me too. From the tracker it looks like 75 and 50 took approx 200m of E road today in the town of Targa jui. 100 shows as taking the small roads parallel. It's an easy mistake to make. I spent several hours checking and double checking e roads in that area to avoid them.
It would suck I'd first across the line was demoted due to a penalty. But it is clear in the race manual that all E roads except for 3 sections (one by the bridge they took acros the Danube, one just east of the CP4 parkour. And one west of the CP that is needed if you take the ferry across the Danube at Ram.
First edition of the manual only permitted the section needed on the route from RAM. The later e]ditions permitted two extra bits. Which make for a route choice. Else we'd have all taken the same route.
I've cycled on E-roads in Romania, in particular the E60 from Predeal to Sinaia. There were no alternatives to travel between those two villages. And, you know, it wasn't too bad. Lots of traffic, but the drivers are expecting horse carts and Roma selling stuff in the middle of the road. Their speed was surprisingly sensible. A blanket ban on E-roads seems lazy of the organizers.
Yes and no. We have 241 riders starting in Geraardsbergen and whilst some are going to be OK on e roads in Romania. Some may not. It's just easier to do the blanket ban. It should make for safer routing. And at least with the known check points, and the parcour, there are route options.
J
Post by: slugbait on 01 August, 2022, 07:38:53 pm
Post by: Nuncio on 01 August, 2022, 07:52:14 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 01 August, 2022, 08:14:47 pm
Personally, I find it a bit strange that they are this concerned about rider safety in Romania and Bulgaria while they have no issue with riders descending Passo di Gavia at 3am in bad weather (I know, I should sleep and not check dots at that time) or riders barely sleeping for several nights in a row. But that's their choice. I'm still enjoying a cracking race. My money's on Strasser.
I have strong opinions on the parcour choices that are best voiced over a beer and not on an online forum.
Lost dot have a big map of banned roads, prohibited roads, and roads with warnings across Europe. The route Fiona took from the Croatian border to Sarajevo has a road warning on it. No idea what the warning means. But it has one.
J
Post by: StuAff on 01 August, 2022, 11:18:27 pm
I'm sure all the riders have strong opinions on those sections. Ulrich's will probably involve lots of Teutonic profanity after a 'slightly broken' Lightweight Meilenstein rim (those wheels are only £5500 a pair after all) and making leg warmers from a survival blanket. Octave Lapize after the Tourmalet springs to mind....
I have strong opinions on the parcour choices that are best voiced over a beer and not on an online forum.
Post by: morbihan on 02 August, 2022, 12:48:14 am
I really enjoyed this (https://www.transcontinental.cc/podcast/2022/8/1/kc2fcl1r8hde09gwr28sch47e3p5ikthis) TCR podcast, from CP2. Off-the-cuff interviews with the first three through, a long one with a chirpy sounding Fiona Kolbinger about her theft travails, one with an Italian who's imagination had been captured by dotwatching and who just turned up at the CP to put some flesh to it ('And maybe one day you would like to do the ride yourself?' 'Maybe let me learn to ride a bike first'). Oh, and the seriously bickering French pair was very funny. At least, I think they were serious. And many more stories behind the dots, and not just from the front-runners.
thanks for the tip
Post by: Notfromrugby on 02 August, 2022, 07:14:00 am
I'm sure all the riders have strong opinions on those sections. Ulrich's will probably involve lots of Teutonic profanity after a 'slightly broken' Lightweight Meilenstein rim (those wheels are only £5500 a pair after all)
I have strong opinions on the parcour choices that are best voiced over a beer and not on an online forum.
Wrong choice of equipment, I'm afraid...
Post by: mzjo on 02 August, 2022, 08:08:19 am
He'll know better next time. Get a better warranty agreement!I'm sure all the riders have strong opinions on those sections. Ulrich's will probably involve lots of Teutonic profanity after a 'slightly broken' Lightweight Meilenstein rim (those wheels are only £5500 a pair after all)
I have strong opinions on the parcour choices that are best voiced over a beer and not on an online forum.
Wrong choice of equipment, I'm afraid...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 August, 2022, 09:06:17 am
Woke up to find some interesting controversy posted by James Hayden on Instagram.
Apparently Ulrich's card did not work at the gas station in Romania. Christoph gave him some money.
This is by the letter of the rules. Not Allowed. Technically that should be a DSQ. *IF* it happened. Ulrich posted on Instagram stories about it. Ulrich has since deleted this. Ultimately it's going to be for Anna to decide upon. Given how big a name Ulrich is within the race this year. It doesn't do the race any good to have the controversy. It doesn't look good for a top 3 riders to get a DSQ over something that is both so minor. Yet also so very much against the rules.
James rightly points out this is about lack of planning on Ulrich's part. Only having one type of payment card (v-pay is known to not work in most Romanian terminals). For not having cash (why did he not raid a cash point as soon as he crossed the border so he had some cash).
Christoph should have known not to help Ulrich. I don't think there will be any penalty for him tho.
James also mentions that Fiona's cash method could be dubious too. Since having her purse stolen in Czechia, she has been buying cash from people by paypaling them money, and then giving her cash. If this is not pre arranged. And no done with other racers. I don't see how this is against the rules. In fact I'd say this is a rather genius solution to the how to get cash when things have been stolen problem. She may have to share her PayPal history with race control at the finish to show that it's only been strangers (or volunteers at CPs). Who have done this.
Anyway. Christoph has a huge lead and is heading for a ferry. We'll see what happens about the gas station cash controversy in due course.
J
Post by: Nuncio on 02 August, 2022, 09:26:04 am
I read something cryptic about 'Money' last night and imagined something a lot less 'innocent' than that. Sounds like it might get messy, which would be a shame.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 August, 2022, 09:31:20 am
Oh dear.
I read something cryptic about 'Money' last night and imagined something a lot less 'innocent' than that. Sounds like it might get messy, which would be a shame.
Ulrich has now dropped back to 3rd. And has been static for 3 hours. It's plausible this is yet more tracker issues. Or he could have realised he's fucked up and decided to ease off.
J
Post by: StuAff on 02 August, 2022, 09:32:32 am
Endless amounts of whataboutery could result from those discussions. He posted on Instagram about the wheels pre-raceI'm sure all the riders have strong opinions on those sections. Ulrich's will probably involve lots of Teutonic profanity after a 'slightly broken' Lightweight Meilenstein rim (those wheels are only £5500 a pair after all)
I have strong opinions on the parcour choices that are best voiced over a beer and not on an online forum.
Wrong choice of equipment, I'm afraid...
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cf_-4owIuRn/
with a (well-reasoned) defence of his choice. But yeah, he'd have probably have been better off going for more spokes…
Post by: mzjo on 02 August, 2022, 12:54:15 pm
Endless amounts of whataboutery could result from those discussions. He posted on Instagram about the wheels pre-raceI'm sure all the riders have strong opinions on those sections. Ulrich's will probably involve lots of Teutonic profanity after a 'slightly broken' Lightweight Meilenstein rim (those wheels are only £5500 a pair after all)
I have strong opinions on the parcour choices that are best voiced over a beer and not on an online forum.
Wrong choice of equipment, I'm afraid...
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cf_-4owIuRn/
with a (well-reasoned) defence of his choice. But yeah, he'd have probably have been better off going for more spokes…
Having read that Insta link I would have to suggest that he watched the Jumbo team at the Paris-Roubaix this year and factored that into his calculations along with the expression "total autonomy". Pros have wagon loads of kit following just behind, not so TCR racers.
On the money issue, I feel that it's rather sad that there should be no occasional emergency aid between riders. Obviously I would never have been an ultraracer, it's in the rules and someone of his experience should have known better and have planned for that contingency - but all the same, somewhere simple humanity has to trump competition. Would I pass a cable, a tyre, the use of my chain tool etc to another competitor to allow them to continue? Undoubtedly I would (there we are, I could never be a competitor!)
Post by: Notfromrugby on 02 August, 2022, 01:35:48 pm
I have done the Cyclo version of Paris-Roubaix twice and it really tests the rider as much as the equipment... I would never use a pair of Lightweights on anything other that decent tarmac... not much because they are or aren't more fragile (I honestly have no idea), but mostly because any damage cannot be fixed at the shop down the road. So then you need a new pair of wheels. Ultimately and maybe controversially, TCR is a very long reliability ride, you set off to do it in 10 days or whatever and try to stick to the plan as much as possible... the name suggests it is about reliability.
Post by: Nuncio on 02 August, 2022, 02:04:56 pm
Oh dear.
I read something cryptic about 'Money' last night and imagined something a lot less 'innocent' than that. Sounds like it might get messy, which would be a shame.
Ulrich has now dropped back to 3rd. And has been static for 3 hours. It's plausible this is yet more tracker issues. Or he could have realised he's fucked up and decided to ease off.
J
He's not that far behind Adam Bialek now. But AB seems to be heading further east for a ferry between Giurgiu and Ruse, which today's report on the TCR site doesn't mention. If the TCR site timetable and my time zone calculations are correct then Strasser has quite a long wait for the ferry now at Turnu Magurele. I can't find the timetable for the Guirgiu/Ruse ferry.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 August, 2022, 02:07:33 pm
Strasser should make the 1600 local time ferry. Or worst case the 1930 local time ferry. What the other two do on the other hand...
He's not that far behind Adam Bialek now. But AB seems to be heading further east for a ferry between Giurgiu and Ruse, which today's report on the TCR site doesn't mention. If the TCR site timetable and my time zone calculations are correct then Strasser has quite a long wait for the ferry now at Turnu Magurele. I can't find the timetable for the Guirgiu/Ruse ferry.
Rumour has it the Bechett ferry isn't running due to not enough water in the river.
J
Post by: Nuncio on 02 August, 2022, 02:12:57 pm
Oh yes. My calculations were incorrect. I knew there was a good reason why I hadn't entered.Strasser should make the 1600 local time ferry.
He's not that far behind Adam Bialek now. But AB seems to be heading further east for a ferry between Giurgiu and Ruse, which today's report on the TCR site doesn't mention. If the TCR site timetable and my time zone calculations are correct then Strasser has quite a long wait for the ferry now at Turnu Magurele. I can't find the timetable for the Guirgiu/Ruse ferry.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 02 August, 2022, 02:17:57 pm
On the money issue, I feel that it's rather sad that there should be no occasional emergency aid between riders. Obviously I would never have been an ultraracer, it's in the rules and someone of his experience should have known better and have planned for that contingency - but all the same, somewhere simple humanity has to trump competition. Would I pass a cable, a tyre, the use of my chain tool etc to another competitor to allow them to continue? Undoubtedly I would (there we are, I could never be a competitor!)I agree totally. But meh, it's a sport, and the whole thing about sport is to take a simple activity (running, jumping, kicking, etc) and invent intricate rules around it.
Post by: JonBuoy on 02 August, 2022, 02:21:37 pm
TV give you a skewed idea of Paris Roubaix... you only see those who "survive", you typically don't see what happens at the back of the race and you only see a broken wheel if it happens to Van Aert & Co.
I have done the Cyclo version of Paris-Roubaix twice and it really tests the rider as much as the equipment... I would never use a pair of Lightweights on anything other that decent tarmac... not much because they are or aren't more fragile (I honestly have no idea), but mostly because any damage cannot be fixed at the shop down the road. So then you need a new pair of wheels. Ultimately and maybe controversially, TCR is a very long reliability ride, you set off to do it in 10 days or whatever and try to stick to the plan as much as possible... the name suggests it is about reliability.
Maybe you would if you were sponsored by Lightweight - as Ulrich is.
Post by: Notfromrugby on 02 August, 2022, 02:29:24 pm
TV give you a skewed idea of Paris Roubaix... you only see those who "survive", you typically don't see what happens at the back of the race and you only see a broken wheel if it happens to Van Aert & Co.
I have done the Cyclo version of Paris-Roubaix twice and it really tests the rider as much as the equipment... I would never use a pair of Lightweights on anything other that decent tarmac... not much because they are or aren't more fragile (I honestly have no idea), but mostly because any damage cannot be fixed at the shop down the road. So then you need a new pair of wheels. Ultimately and maybe controversially, TCR is a very long reliability ride, you set off to do it in 10 days or whatever and try to stick to the plan as much as possible... the name suggests it is about reliability.
Maybe you would if you were sponsored by Lightweight - as Ulrich is.
I guess...
Post by: Notfromrugby on 02 August, 2022, 02:35:52 pm
Post by: Solocle on 02 August, 2022, 03:37:25 pm
It's really becoming a big event with a lot of press coverage. I was reading the very short list of rules and there is no mention of doping violations. I would assume the use of drugs to keep alert at night is widespread? And seeing at the top end some riders come from the murky Granfondo scene, it would probably be time to take a stand maybe...Lots of caffeine for sure!
Post by: Lightning Phil on 02 August, 2022, 03:50:46 pm
Post by: Ivo on 02 August, 2022, 07:04:38 pm
On the money issue, I feel that it's rather sad that there should be no occasional emergency aid between riders. Obviously I would never have been an ultraracer, it's in the rules and someone of his experience should have known better and have planned for that contingency - but all the same, somewhere simple humanity has to trump competition. Would I pass a cable, a tyre, the use of my chain tool etc to another competitor to allow them to continue? Undoubtedly I would (there we are, I could never be a competitor!)
Totally agree. The TCR (and races with a similar approach to this) are outside of my interest zone as a participant. I might consider those, however, which have a more humane approach and of course venture more into less hot area's.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 August, 2022, 07:33:06 pm
There's a lot of speculation on twitter that the Ferry at Bechet is not running due to a lack of water in the river. Ulrich is about to arrive there hoping for a 2300 EEST ferry. Which noone is certain will be running.
Meanwhile Adam is about 50km down river and finding he's missed all the ferries for the night. Chances are both will ride to the ferry in the middle where Christoph crossed. They can then sleep until the first ferry and have a sprint for the finish. I wonder how many of those in 4-8th will catch up with them in time for the first ferry. It's gonna be very close for those in 2-8.
J
Post by: Lightning Phil on 02 August, 2022, 07:38:11 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 August, 2022, 07:57:31 pm
We will find out soon enough as crew car at ferry and Ulrich almost there
He's there...
J
Post by: morbihan on 02 August, 2022, 08:44:42 pm
there's another story for the ages in the book of TCR.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 August, 2022, 09:02:42 pm
Now the big question. How many people. Behind know that the ferry at Beshett is OOO?
J
Post by: Ivo on 02 August, 2022, 09:27:33 pm
Krystian and Pawel follow a more eastern course so they are heading for the other ferries.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 02 August, 2022, 10:17:43 pm
Marin is following the Olt river so he might be a candidate
Krystian and Pawel follow a more eastern course so they are heading for the other ferries.
That’s the route Christoph took, so hopefully aiming for same ferry,
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 August, 2022, 10:36:34 pm
Meanwhile 197 has taken the aqueduct across the river. This is allowed... But...
Well to get down on the east side of the river looks like:
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZL18wGWYAElkyJ.jpg)
Courageous choice of route...
J
Post by: StuAff on 02 August, 2022, 11:25:21 pm
I stopped the bike and discovered an open crack running almost the full circumference of the downtube. I was extremely lucky to notice it when I did, as one more switchback would have caused the frame to fold in half beneath me.". Eek!!
Post by: Mr Larrington on 02 August, 2022, 11:56:16 pm
Post by: morbihan on 03 August, 2022, 01:18:57 am
Meanwhile 197 has taken the aqueduct across the river. This is allowed... But...
Well to get down on the east side of the river looks like:
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZL18wGWYAElkyJ.jpg)
Courageous choice of route...
J
woah.
well I guess he's a mountain biker so used to taking headers down a drop.
I guess at the pointy end he's carrying bugger all too so that should help with the portage.
My rig....not happening.
Or you could play "how did the frog, the dingo and the giraffe all get across the river" and strip all the bags off.
Post by: StuAff on 03 August, 2022, 11:53:25 am
Post by: Notfromrugby on 03 August, 2022, 12:02:47 pm
Christoph has done it. 9 days, 14 hours, 4578.62 km. Wow.
That's not far off 500km a day... he clearly has a superior pace... if he managed to ride 42.5 km/h in his 24h record, he can probably cruise at 30km/h without much effort on normal roads, which leaves quite a lot of time for sleep and faff.
Post by: Edd on 03 August, 2022, 12:18:18 pm
I thought he might take more rest last night seeing as his nearest competitors were stuck the other side of the Danube
Post by: Karla on 03 August, 2022, 01:07:07 pm
Post by: orraloon on 03 August, 2022, 02:03:41 pm
Post by: morbihan on 03 August, 2022, 02:23:43 pm
He pre recced the unknown parcour in TransAlpina. Rode within his considerable abilities in the early stages but stayed in touch with the leaders, and learned new unsupported skills on the fly. Put the hammer down in the final quarter and no one had the horsepower to stay his pace.
Anything can happen on a big complex event like TCR, but barring major mechanicals/injury I can't see anyone out there who could compete with that power and focus.
Perhaps Abdul Zeinab.
Its early days but so far it appears to have been a very well thought out and smoothly run edition, Im so glad about that after the previous cancellations.
It will be interesting to hear the stories and reports from the road once all the riders are in and have had time to digest.
The extreme parcour in Romania has caused some online consternation, but poersonaly I like the added spice and mental challenge it adds to the race.
I'm not too thrilled with the ferry lottery, but I imagine its a necessary encumbrance to keep the race within safety margins and also run it way down to that neck of the woods.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 03 August, 2022, 03:50:06 pm
Very smartly raced.
He pre recced the unknown parcour in TransAlpina. Rode within his considerable abilities in the early stages but stayed in touch with the leaders, and learned new unsupported skills on the fly. Put the hammer down in the final quarter and no one had the horsepower to stay his pace.
Anything can happen on a big complex event like TCR, but barring major mechanicals/injury I can't see anyone out there who could compete with that power and focus.
Perhaps Abdul Zeinab.
My only slightly negative thought is that the race has been one by a professional cyclist. When it started the race was all about the maths teacher racing the bike courier. Now we have riders who do this for their profession. Sponsored sufficient that they can take time to go across Europe to reccy parts of the course. None of its against the rules. And when we look at it James was sponsored by a private equity firm so he could focus on riding full time. So it's been going that way for years. What always appealed to me with ultra racing was it was normal people competing. A maths teacher from Belgium, a computer geek from Helsinki, a cycle courier from London. Normal people taking on a most extraordinary feet. And whilst further back down the pack there are the Brompton, and the fixie, and the Romanian with an oma fiets and panniers (no really). The pointy end is now professional riders. I fully expect Lachlan Morton to be on the start sometime soon.
What Christoph has done is an awesome achievement. There is no denying that. I just wonder how fast some of the rest of the pack would be if they didn't have to worry about a day job.
Quote
Its early days but so far it appears to have been a very well thought out and smoothly run edition, Im so glad about that after the previous cancellations.
It will be interesting to hear the stories and reports from the road once all the riders are in and have had time to digest.
It will be interesting to see how the 9th edition changes. Given Anna is stepping back from running the race.
Quote
The extreme parcour in Romania has caused some online consternation, but poersonaly I like the added spice and mental challenge it adds to the race.
I'm not too thrilled with the ferry lottery, but I imagine its a necessary encumbrance to keep the race within safety margins and also run it way down to that neck of the woods.
Given the choice of the ferries or that parcour. I'll take the ferries please. Lost dot sent out an email today saying there is no expectation to be able to ride the parcour. Which IMHO on a road cydli race is just ridiculous. If the majori of riders can't ride the parcour, then it has no place in the race. We've seen this in the past couple of editions, the bonkers parcours in Serbia on the previous two editions come to mind. On number 6 one rider even left his bike at the bottom, walked up with the tracker, and walked back down again. In one edition Mike ran they had the military road in Italy, but the whole thing was ridable in road tyres. The last two Serbian parcours, and this Romanian one. Not so much.
Oh. And several riders at the pointy end crashed in the cp4 parcour. Not good.
J
Post by: Notfromrugby on 03 August, 2022, 04:10:16 pm
My only slightly negative thought is that the race has been one by a professional cyclist. When it started the race was all about the maths teacher racing the bike courier. Now we have riders who do this for their profession. Sponsored sufficient that they can take time to go across Europe to reccy parts of the course. None of its against the rules. And when we look at it James was sponsored by a private equity firm so he could focus on riding full time. So it's been going that way for years. What always appealed to me with ultra racing was it was normal people competing. A maths teacher from Belgium, a computer geek from Helsinki, a cycle courier from London. Normal people taking on a most extraordinary feet. And whilst further back down the pack there are the Brompton, and the fixie, and the Romanian with an oma fiets and panniers (no really). The pointy end is now professional riders. I fully expect Lachlan Morton to be on the start sometime soon.
What Christoph has done is an awesome achievement. There is no denying that. I just wonder how fast some of the rest of the pack would be if they didn't have to worry about a day job.
That is always the case... every sport starts as a bunch of amateurs and develops into some kind of professionalism. If you look at the time trial scene in the UK, Alf Engers was banned for many years from competing because at one point he had turned professional for a month or so... fast forward to these days and organisers are all excited if they can have Alex Dowsett entering their race... I wonder what poor old Alf thinks of this U-turn.
There is no way back, especially because the winner is not a professional in the classic sense, he doesn't have a contract as such, just a number of sponsors... maybe the all ultra racing field should be regulated or maybe not...
Post by: hatler on 03 August, 2022, 04:28:10 pm
The crowd I sail with are struggling to keep numbers up, for a dinghy that is wildly expensive new, and older models are less than competitive.
How do you keep the back of the fleet engaged when they're getting slaughtered by people who are effectively professionals ?
This is what they've come up with.
Platinum
Considered to be a professional sailor
Finished top 10 in a national championship (with an entry of more than 60)
Have finished in the top 5 of any national championship
Finishes in the top 8 at Salcombe Merlin Rocket Week
Gold
Does not qualify for Platinum
Has finished between 11- 25 of any National Championships (with an entry of more than 60)
Has finished between 6-15 of any National Championship (with an entry of less than 60)
Has finished between 9-30 at Salcombe Merlin week
Has finished in the top 10 of an Inland Championships
Automatic promotion if you win Silver Fleet at the National Championships or the overall Silver Tiller (season before)
Silver
Does not qualify for Gold
Has finished between 26-40 of any National Championships (with an entry of more than 60)
Has finished between 16-35 of any National Championships (with an entry of less than 60)
Has finished between 31-70 at Salcombe Merlin week
Automatic promotion if you win Bronze Fleet at the National Championships or the overall Silver Tiller (season before)
Bronze
Does not qualify for Platinum, Gold, or Silver
Post by: StuAff on 04 August, 2022, 09:26:22 am
Post by: Lightning Phil on 04 August, 2022, 11:21:11 am
Post by: Lightning Phil on 04 August, 2022, 11:23:39 am
Post by: PeterM on 04 August, 2022, 01:22:48 pm
Michael Broadwith now closing in on Danube
…Though not on a working ferry
Post by: PeterM on 04 August, 2022, 01:28:38 pm
Michael Broadwith now closing in on Danube
…Though not on a working ferry
He’s now heading in the right direction. Phew!
Post by: Lightning Phil on 04 August, 2022, 09:31:01 pm
Post by: morbihan on 05 August, 2022, 11:15:39 am
His tracker has his moving time at 76%, much higher than most.
The reported distance p/d is 327 km. Im pretty sure that in past editions that would have you very much towards the front half of the race.
Im not sure on the validity of this new tracker info though. It all seems very high.
It may simply be that the quality of the racers has gone up a couple of notches.
400 and up to 500 km a day for the racers that have finished. Unthinkable over that hilly terrain. Phenomenal.
Post by: Notfromrugby on 05 August, 2022, 11:29:41 am
400 and up to 500 km a day for the racers that have finished. Unthinkable over that hilly terrain. Phenomenal.
The proliferation of these events has created a new beast, the ultra racer... realistically, it is now a "race" for 5% of the field... for the others it's about getting to the finish within the time limits... so a very long audax.
I remember reading about Mike's idea of unsupported racing and how this goes back to the pure spirit of it... reality is as far as I can tell, bicycle races were always supported, maybe not to the degree they are now, but there was never a time where races looked like TCR and the tales of men forging their forks at the bottom of the Tourmalet were not the norm.
Post by: Solocle on 05 August, 2022, 02:10:10 pm
It is very pure racing - "who can get from A to B as fast as possible"! I do think the self-supported bit might be slightly overblown when it comes to riders giving each other a pump or some money, as we all know that if you're by the side of the road passing riders often offer assistance. But the rules do avoid things like domestiques, and certainly support cars.
400 and up to 500 km a day for the racers that have finished. Unthinkable over that hilly terrain. Phenomenal.
The proliferation of these events has created a new beast, the ultra racer... realistically, it is now a "race" for 5% of the field... for the others it's about getting to the finish within the time limits... so a very long audax.
I remember reading about Mike's idea of unsupported racing and how this goes back to the pure spirit of it... reality is as far as I can tell, bicycle races were always supported, maybe not to the degree they are now, but there was never a time where races looked like TCR and the tales of men forging their forks at the bottom of the Tourmalet were not the norm.
Post by: morbihan on 05 August, 2022, 03:18:32 pm
400 and up to 500 km a day for the racers that have finished. Unthinkable over that hilly terrain. Phenomenal.
The proliferation of these events has created a new beast, the ultra racer... realistically, it is now a "race" for 5% of the field... for the others it's about getting to the finish within the time limits... so a very long audax.
I remember reading about Mike's idea of unsupported racing and how this goes back to the pure spirit of it... reality is as far as I can tell, bicycle races were always supported, maybe not to the degree they are now, but there was never a time where races looked like TCR and the tales of men forging their forks at the bottom of the Tourmalet were not the norm.
Oh no its very competitive right through the field. The time cut off is admittedly the goal for most agreed, but don't underestimate how much the races check the dots around them and try to get ahead of them.
Post by: morbihan on 05 August, 2022, 03:44:28 pm
Fiona rode the final leg after the gravel parcours (that she rode at over 11 kph so patently rideable for the most part)
a 640 km effort at 25 kph with 4,650 m of climb in 29 hours. Stop time was a mere 3.5 hours including the weight for and ferry crossing.
..........Stuck in her 50/15 chainring! Other worldly.
If she hadn't had her money pinched way back in Czech and lost at least half a day I think she would have been up there fighting it out with the front 6.
Post by: Notfromrugby on 05 August, 2022, 04:12:17 pm
It is very pure racing - "who can get from A to B as fast as possible"! I do think the self-supported bit might be slightly overblown when it comes to riders giving each other a pump or some money, as we all know that if you're by the side of the road passing riders often offer assistance. But the rules do avoid things like domestiques, and certainly support cars.
400 and up to 500 km a day for the racers that have finished. Unthinkable over that hilly terrain. Phenomenal.
The proliferation of these events has created a new beast, the ultra racer... realistically, it is now a "race" for 5% of the field... for the others it's about getting to the finish within the time limits... so a very long audax.
I remember reading about Mike's idea of unsupported racing and how this goes back to the pure spirit of it... reality is as far as I can tell, bicycle races were always supported, maybe not to the degree they are now, but there was never a time where races looked like TCR and the tales of men forging their forks at the bottom of the Tourmalet were not the norm.
That is fair enough, but I don't think it is any more "pure racing" than a bunch of blokes battling it out on a Sunday morning doing laps of a 6 miles course. In fact, the shortest the event, the more pure the racing is, in my opinion. Crit racing, a well as track disciplines like the Madison or Keirin are in my humble opinion the purest form of racing. Ultra racing throws in far too many variables to be a credible race. It's a very long reliability ride with a competitive element thrown in. It's a bit of fun and certainly a massive physicial and logistical challenge... as for "pure racing"... meh :(
Post by: Notfromrugby on 05 August, 2022, 05:08:31 pm
The demographic of TCR is by necessity closer to 50 than it is to 20... you need a lot of time and a lot of money to be in it... in some respect, you buy your way into it, by being fortunate enough to live a comfortable life... of course there will be exceptions: deranged bike couriers, who eat of out of tins for 350 days, so that they can do TCR, but it's not an example for anyone, I think.
School age riders are pretty much excluded from the event, although they represent the talent to nurture, not some 40 something it manager with an appetite for adventure. A club race is 5 quid, a BC cat 2/3/4 race is 10-20 quid and they are local... that's where you spot racing talent, not in some kind of exotic adventure cycling across a continent.
For all these reasons, I don't believe it is "pure racing"...
Post by: morbihan on 05 August, 2022, 07:14:49 pm
I'll try to answer though.
Perhaps sign up and do the event and then come back and tell us it's not a race?
There is a cost involved but at the bare bones end, in a Western sense, its not cost prohibitive and there is always the chance to apply for the bursary positions.
What may be a barrier for many is the time it takes.
It's been raced on Supermarket bikes with home made bike packing gear. Racers have ridden to the start. taken a ferry etc.many bevy out and eat out of gas stations.
Lots of racers are in their 20's (time perhaps, less likely to have family responsibilities, students etc)
Paris Dakar costs tens of thousands, that's not an appropriate analogy.
I don't get the pure racing concept either.
A marathon is a race, a 100m dash is a race. A criterium is a race, an ultra is a race.
I will concur that TCR is not purely a race; its a much deeper concept than that.
Post by: Notfromrugby on 05 August, 2022, 07:24:52 pm
I will concur that TCR is not purely a race; its a much deeper concept than that.
My grudge is against this widely diffuse and wildly misplaced notion that professional cycling has somewhat lost its soul, because there are support vehicles, radios and domestiques and that somehow is supposed to diminish the value of the race, whereas unsupported racing has some kind of halo of purity, the true spirit of a bicycle competition... well, it's all bollox... bicycle races were always supported, there was never a time when one had to carry a map and a bivvy bag... it's fantasy, it's a romantic idea of a racing that never existed. Bicycle races have always been about who is the fastest across the finish line. There is no extra value if you can win by a quantity that you can be measured with a calendar, rather than by seconds or milliseconds. In my opinion, the best racing is the shortest, not the longest. The longer the race, the more factors, other than speed and talent become prevalent, hence the less of a race it becomes.
Post by: felstedrider on 05 August, 2022, 07:32:46 pm
Post by: morbihan on 05 August, 2022, 07:50:54 pm
I will concur that TCR is not purely a race; its a much deeper concept than that.
My grudge is against this widely diffuse and wildly misplaced notion that professional cycling has somewhat lost its soul, because there are support vehicles, radios and domestiques and that somehow is supposed to diminish the value of the race, whereas unsupported racing has some kind of halo of purity, the true spirit of a bicycle competition... well, it's all bollox... bicycle races were always supported, there was never a time when one had to carry a map and a bivvy bag... it's fantasy, it's a romantic idea of a racing that never existed. Bicycle races have always been about who is the fastest across the finish line. There is no extra value if you can win by a quantity that you can be measured with a calendar, rather than by seconds or milliseconds. In my opinion, the best racing is the shortest, not the longest. The longer the race, the more factors, other than speed and talent become prevalent, hence the less of a race it becomes.
I enjoy it all, and don't particularly judge.
Ultra racing and the texture of the discipline holds a special place though.
Happy riding/viewing.
Post by: Notfromrugby on 05 August, 2022, 07:54:54 pm
Look up the ‘Touriste Routier’ category from editions of the Tour in the 30s.
Exactly, basically they were not in the race... allowed to take part, but ultimately excluded from the action.
Personally, I think that Henry Desgrange was more of a butcher than a race organiser... he had a sadistic view of bicycle racing, which wasn't really that helpful... thankfully things moved on swiftly
Post by: Zed43 on 05 August, 2022, 08:14:08 pm
I would say that this notion about professional road racing that you talk about is not shared by many.
There have always been and always will be people who don't care (anymore) for things in the mainstream. And thus we have audax, bmx, mtb, battle mountain,TCR, etc etc. Cool ain't it?
As for the TCR, in the "Kristof era" I was often glued to the screen but nowadays I only take a passing interest. Feeling it has become too racy, too serious, too extreme, too risky. Changes in my mental makeup have probably more to do with this assessment than changes in the event itself (though not entirely?)
Still, Fiona playing the piano in one of the later controls has become my benchmark of awesomeness in endurance cycling.
(sorry for rambling, being bored in a hotel room
)
Post by: morbihan on 06 August, 2022, 12:48:46 pm
Post by: Notfromrugby on 06 August, 2022, 02:06:14 pm
There have always been and always will be people who don't care (anymore) for things in the mainstream. And thus we have audax, bmx, mtb, battle mountain,TCR, etc etc. Cool ain't it?
They do become mainstream very quickly though... MTBikes have been the best selling bikes for quite some time and with the current hangover of "adventure bike" offerings, it won't be long before road cycling becomes the niche discipline.
The funny thing is that all these trends start with the same basic idea of going back to a simpler way of having fun on the bike... it was the same with MTBikes... simple bangers to get out of the traffic and tarmac... now you look at the current Specialized range and wonder what is so simple about them.
Post by: Tim Hall on 07 August, 2022, 06:30:12 pm
Quote
My shoes have disintegrated on cp4 parcours. I can't now unclip, so can't ride safely. No chance of getting other pedals / shoes up here so can't make it to Burgas, at least not for another few days.
20 km to walk down to end of track. No water. I've had better days.
https://twitter.com/frank9755/status/1555904530008735745?cxt=HHwWgoC8-aW715crAAAA (https://twitter.com/frank9755/status/1555904530008735745?cxt=HHwWgoC8-aW715crAAAA)
However he then said, 40 minutes later
Quote
Riding again. Had a couple of ideas. Might be ok, might not...https://twitter.com/frank9755/status/1555914098482847744?cxt=HHwWgIC90aDo25crAAAA (https://twitter.com/frank9755/status/1555914098482847744?cxt=HHwWgIC90aDo25crAAAA)
Tracking now shows him just over the Danube. Hurrah. Come on my son.
Post by: morbihan on 07 August, 2022, 08:13:26 pm
Well done Frank.
Join the flat pedal society mate!
Post by: Tim Hall on 07 August, 2022, 09:14:12 pm
Yikes he's been through the wringer.Ironically (or annoyingly) he did loads of long distance rides on flat pedals in the past. I'm not sure why he changed this time round.
Well done Frank.
Join the flat pedal society mate!
Post by: quixoticgeek on 07 August, 2022, 09:56:44 pm
Ironically (or annoyingly) he did loads of long distance rides on flat pedals in the past. I'm not sure why he changed this time round.
That would all be Hippy's fault.
https://twitter.com/frank9755/status/1556264697183232005
J
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 August, 2022, 08:47:53 am
Post by: FifeingEejit on 08 August, 2022, 09:32:25 am
The purest motor sport is go-kart, that's where you go and look for the next Ayrton Senna.... that's proper racing!
PMSL
Seriously, you can spend a couple of grand on a kart and still be at the back of the field because some fat lump with no skill has spent twenty.
We got to the point where we were pushing fuel to the limit, and my mate was eating and drinking nothing at lunchtime to make up for the fact we had a heavier kart and weaker engine.
And then there were the various incidents I've mentioned before.
The closest to a concept of purity in a form of racing you're going to get is bare foot running starkers in the desert where all you're allowed to eat for the week before and during the race is raisins.
Post by: Tim Hall on 08 August, 2022, 11:59:13 am
Post by: morbihan on 08 August, 2022, 12:36:15 pm
Frank is now in 71st position according to the tracker website. He's about 2km behind Oscar Shortt. Very different moving/stopped profiles. Frank is 73% 27% while Oscar is 60% 40%.
He's pretty much on the home straight and will make the party. Top Effort.
Im looking forward to hearing his debrief and how this compared to previous ultras, in particular earlier editions of TCR.
From the reports filtering through, the dog chases seem to have been a little more prevalent this year, and the CP4 parcour with mixed weather for different riders, was a real challenge.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 August, 2022, 12:39:37 pm
He's pretty much on the home straight and will make the party. Top Effort.
Im looking forward to hearing his debrief and how this compared to previous ultras, in particular earlier editions of TCR.
From the reports filtering through, the dog chases seem to have been a little more prevalent this year, and the CP4 parcour with mixed weather for different riders, was a real challenge.
I've seen two riders have actually been bitten this year. Dog chases have been reported every year, but this is the first time I've seen reports of people being bitten on the TCR.
J
Post by: Notfromrugby on 08 August, 2022, 02:36:52 pm
He's pretty much on the home straight and will make the party. Top Effort.
Im looking forward to hearing his debrief and how this compared to previous ultras, in particular earlier editions of TCR.
From the reports filtering through, the dog chases seem to have been a little more prevalent this year, and the CP4 parcour with mixed weather for different riders, was a real challenge.
I've seen two riders have actually been bitten this year. Dog chases have been reported every year, but this is the first time I've seen reports of people being bitten on the TCR.
J
All in the spirit of this kind of "racing", I suppose
Post by: morbihan on 08 August, 2022, 03:38:06 pm
He's pretty much on the home straight and will make the party. Top Effort.
Im looking forward to hearing his debrief and how this compared to previous ultras, in particular earlier editions of TCR.
From the reports filtering through, the dog chases seem to have been a little more prevalent this year, and the CP4 parcour with mixed weather for different riders, was a real challenge.
I've seen two riders have actually been bitten this year. Dog chases have been reported every year, but this is the first time I've seen reports of people being bitten on the TCR.
J
Yes I don't recall anyone having teef marks before. Its certainly happened on TABR in Kentucky a few times.
I have a mess of dogs here at home and am used to dogs in general, but it didn't stop me shyteing myself a few times in Bosnia/Albania.
One close one just over the Albanian border in the pitch black where 4 red eyes appeared out of nowhere had my heart rate at zone 9. The only situation where I was truly probably in a dodgy situation though was the day lost on the plateau below Blejnica. I got between a huge sarplaninac and his heard of cows. Hairy.
I always remind myself that loads of cyclist tour the back country around there, some even with their own pet, and manage to deal with it.
Still get the shiver down the neck though!
Post by: morbihan on 08 August, 2022, 03:40:20 pm
He's pretty much on the home straight and will make the party. Top Effort.
Im looking forward to hearing his debrief and how this compared to previous ultras, in particular earlier editions of TCR.
From the reports filtering through, the dog chases seem to have been a little more prevalent this year, and the CP4 parcour with mixed weather for different riders, was a real challenge.
I've seen two riders have actually been bitten this year. Dog chases have been reported every year, but this is the first time I've seen reports of people being bitten on the TCR.
J
All in the spirit of this kind of "racing", I suppose
In this type of racing yeah. Comes with the territory. You supposed correctly.
Post by: Tim Hall on 08 August, 2022, 04:13:22 pm
Frank is now in 71st position according to the tracker website. He's about 2km behind Oscar Shortt. Very different moving/stopped profiles. Frank is 73% 27% while Oscar is 60% 40%.
He's pretty much on the home straight and will make the party. Top Effort.
Im looking forward to hearing his debrief and how this compared to previous ultras, in particular earlier editions of TCR.
From the reports filtering through, the dog chases seem to have been a little more prevalent this year, and the CP4 parcour with mixed weather for different riders, was a real challenge.
He's pulled quite a way ahead of Oscar now. About an hour ago the tracker was suggesting that Oscar may have taken a wrong turn. But then it also showed his speed at 80kmh-1, so I suspect it Might Not Be Trustworthy. Oscar is shown as stationary at the moment.
Post by: Pickled Onion on 08 August, 2022, 08:52:08 pm
Yes I don't recall anyone having teef marks before. Its certainly happened on TABR in Kentucky a few times.
I have a mess of dogs here at home and am used to dogs in general, but it didn't stop me shyteing myself a few times in Bosnia/Albania.
One close one just over the Albanian border in the pitch black where 4 red eyes appeared out of nowhere had my heart rate at zone 9. The only situation where I was truly probably in a dodgy situation though was the day lost on the plateau below Blejnica. I got between a huge sarplaninac and his heard of cows. Hairy.
I always remind myself that loads of cyclist tour the back country around there, some even with their own pet, and manage to deal with it.
Still get the shiver down the neck though!
I'm not a fan of dogs and have cycled extensively in the area. Generally they don't clock you're a bike until you've passed, then chase you up to the next property, where the dog there sees them off, then chases the bike. Never been attacked, until this year in Bosnia. In a group, a dog saw us ahead of time and ran at me from the side, leapt but misjudged and bounced off my pannier. It came back and did the same with the cyclist behind me, who wobbled and took down the guy next to him, who managed to pick up his bike and fend the dog off with it. Nearly as scary as the time I was chased by a bear in the Carpathians.
Post by: Nuncio on 08 August, 2022, 08:56:00 pm
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 08 August, 2022, 09:00:41 pm
Post by: Pickled Onion on 08 August, 2022, 09:23:20 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 August, 2022, 09:46:26 pm
Frank got the black jersey for being the rider arriving at the party closest to midnight
J
Post by: morbihan on 09 August, 2022, 01:09:16 am
Well done Frank.
So pleased for you and looking forward to the debrief.
Enjoy the satisfaction of what you have accomplished and rest up well.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 August, 2022, 08:35:02 am
They probably don't ride much at night though.He's pretty much on the home straight and will make the party. Top Effort.
Im looking forward to hearing his debrief and how this compared to previous ultras, in particular earlier editions of TCR.
From the reports filtering through, the dog chases seem to have been a little more prevalent this year, and the CP4 parcour with mixed weather for different riders, was a real challenge.
I've seen two riders have actually been bitten this year. Dog chases have been reported every year, but this is the first time I've seen reports of people being bitten on the TCR.
J
Yes I don't recall anyone having teef marks before. Its certainly happened on TABR in Kentucky a few times.
I have a mess of dogs here at home and am used to dogs in general, but it didn't stop me shyteing myself a few times in Bosnia/Albania.
One close one just over the Albanian border in the pitch black where 4 red eyes appeared out of nowhere had my heart rate at zone 9. The only situation where I was truly probably in a dodgy situation though was the day lost on the plateau below Blejnica. I got between a huge sarplaninac and his heard of cows. Hairy.
I always remind myself that loads of cyclist tour the back country around there, some even with their own pet, and manage to deal with it.
Still get the shiver down the neck though!
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 09 August, 2022, 08:57:46 am
Post by: morbihan on 09 August, 2022, 10:19:18 am
I'm enjoying following James Houston who is plugging along on his Brompton. His Instagram posts give a really good idea of the landscape.
Is it public? If so do you have a link?
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 09 August, 2022, 11:42:02 am
Post by: morbihan on 09 August, 2022, 12:49:31 pm
Post by: Frank9755 on 09 August, 2022, 08:43:12 pm
I really enjoyed it. It's a wonderful adventure with great company.
My ride went well. Legs were good right through and my racing strategy was mostly solid. My equipment was good, but I could have done with a better back-up front light after I broke my main one. I lost focus twice: on the 23 road in the Czech Republic and on the crazy CP4 parcours, which cost me time and hence my place at the finishers' party.
Seeing all the things I saw was like 20 holidays one after the other. For example I've always wanted to tour East Germany, and now I have: thirty years after reunification it still feels more like CZ or Croatia than w Germany. The next day it was a tour of the Sudetenland. Seeing how the hills on the border form a massive barrier between Germany and Bohemia and tower over the Bohemian countryside made me think of Munich and the run up to WW2. If the Czechs had been able to get Chamberlain up there to see that with his own eyes, maybe history would have been different? And so on - experiences it would take years to compile otherwise.
Everyone agreed the route was a step up in difficulty. In part this is because the standard of riders and riding also gets higher, but this was a higher step than usual. I do wonder if they decided to beef it up when Christoph Strasser entered to avoid a really quick finish.
The off road parcours was shite, all riders I've spoken to hated it and felt it detracted from the event. The main problem was not that it was too technical, although lots of us were wandering around at the finish comparing arm, leg and hip grazes. But that it was too long. It took me 8.5 hours to do it, after climbing the Transalpina from each side. I started the climb at 3:30 am with good food supplies, but I ran out of food by mid afternoon and didn't pass an open shop until 9:30pm, 18 hours later, when I was able to restock. By then I'd then not eaten for six hours. If I'd been half an hour later I may not have found food until the next morning. I'd previously run out of water, having to go for 3-4 hours in the middle of the day with none before finding a spring. I really needed to have better mountain biking skills to get through quicker - others were doing it in close to six hours - but I'm far from the slowest rider.
On the more negative side, I now have doubts over the viability of this format with free route between controls. Others have been saying for a while that it is dangerous as it forces riders to use the busiest roads to be competitive, and I now agree.
Compared to 2016 and 2019 there was much more use of the main roads of Eastern Europe, which is where the main issues lie.
Four riders knocked off out of 270ish starters is a lot. I got spooked by the 23 in the Czech Republic. I didn't have any near misses there but felt my presence was causing danger for others by leading to dangerous overtakes. The last straw was a quarry truck which overtook me on a blind bend, using a single continuous blast on its horn, in the absence of line of sight, to ensure the road was clear of oncoming traffic. So I got off the road. However, by the end of the ride, I was much more accustomed to drivers relying on their horn to facilitate overtaking
The main road I followed in Serbia was crazy in places and one of the tunnels - unlit, curved and too big/black for my lights to reflect off the sides - was very scary. In Romania the roads were worst. In my first hour in the country I had my closest ever pass, maybe five inches from my bars. The road north of Targu Jiu was particularly awful. This is three lanes with the side going uphill having two and one for down. And it has concrete blocks between the two sides, so when going downhill you either have to take primary or allow cars to squeeze past. It was on this bit of road that one of the riders was knocked off.
For me it's the width of the road that matters. Po Valley and Bulgaria seem to be wider, Cz and Ro narrowest, but it varies by road. I got run off the road by articulated lorries in Bosnia and Bulgaria.
Although I loved the event, I don't think I'd ride it again in its current format as I just don't think it's safe.
Post by: Tim Hall on 09 August, 2022, 10:01:48 pm
2. Can someone explain the finishers' party? QG posted earlier that the finish closes/closed at 2200 CEST 09/08/22, ie this evening. However from Frank's post up there ^ the CP4 parcour was a time sink and cost him his place at the finishers' party. This suggests that the finishers' party cut off and the finish closing time aren't the same. Is that right?
Post by: Nuncio on 09 August, 2022, 10:08:55 pm
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 09 August, 2022, 10:24:50 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 09 August, 2022, 10:34:15 pm
1. Chapeau Frank. Gruelling stuff.
2. Can someone explain the finishers' party? QG posted earlier that the finish closes/closed at 2200 CEST 09/08/22, ie this evening. However from Frank's post up there ^ the CP4 parcour was a time sink and cost him his place at the finishers' party. This suggests that the finishers' party cut off and the finish closing time aren't the same. Is that right?
Finishers party was yesterday (Monday) 1900-0000. Black jersey was awarded for the last rider to arrive before midnight (Frank).
The finish (for GC) closed today at 2200 CEST (2100 local time). Exactly 16 days after the start. Anyone who finished before that time is GC. Anyone after that is a finished, but not GC.
J
Post by: StuAff on 09 August, 2022, 11:00:14 pm
Post by: morbihan on 10 August, 2022, 01:29:07 am
Thanks for the report too.
In my experience, TCR will take on board all feedback and adjust the event for the future as best they can while keeping the spirit of the event intact.
it really is in its infancy and has to work its way through the growing pains of the early years.
Rest up mate,
Chapeau.
Post by: Frank9755 on 11 August, 2022, 12:11:34 pm
Yikes he's been through the wringer.Ironically (or annoyingly) he did loads of long distance rides on flat pedals in the past. I'm not sure why he changed this time round.
Well done Frank.
Join the flat pedal society mate!
True. I thought I started the flat pedal society as the only person to use them in 2019.
Since then I've had an ongoing knee issue which has needed a 6mm shim on my left foot to stabilise it. I can't get more than 3-4mm with flat pedals so have been forced back to speedplay. I hope that, now my knee is largely fixed, I can go back to flats for events like this. Certainly for this parcours, they would have been great.
What happened was that the plastic shim started to break up at the front and the two front cleat bolts lost engagement. After my initial shock I was able to stabilise the cleat by doing the back two bolts up bastard tight. I could get one of the front screws in but there wasn't much thread engagement and it always came undone again after a few hours. I could feel when it had done as the cleat became more 'floppy'.
If the cleat had deteriorated further my plan was to take the spring out so it was just like a placeholder and I wouldn't have to unclip, but it didn't get any worse until walking around after the finish.
Post by: Frank9755 on 11 August, 2022, 12:13:32 pm
Frank is now in 71st position according to the tracker website. He's about 2km behind Oscar Shortt. Very different moving/stopped profiles. Frank is 73% 27% while Oscar is 60% 40%.
I don't think those percentages mean much, unfortunately. My hunch is they don't include time when the tracker was turned off. I turned mine off every night when I slept while some didn't.
Similarly, I'm not sure what the distance figures are based on. I didn't ride as many km as it thinks I did.
Post by: Frank9755 on 11 August, 2022, 12:16:19 pm
Frank is now in 71st position according to the tracker website. He's about 2km behind Oscar Shortt. Very different moving/stopped profiles. Frank is 73% 27% while Oscar is 60% 40%.
He's pretty much on the home straight and will make the party. Top Effort.
Im looking forward to hearing his debrief and how this compared to previous ultras, in particular earlier editions of TCR.
From the reports filtering through, the dog chases seem to have been a little more prevalent this year, and the CP4 parcour with mixed weather for different riders, was a real challenge.
He's pulled quite a way ahead of Oscar now. About an hour ago the tracker was suggesting that Oscar may have taken a wrong turn. But then it also showed his speed at 80kmh-1, so I suspect it Might Not Be Trustworthy. Oscar is shown as stationary at the moment.
Oscar suffered major problems with punctures. I passed him and he stopped me for a tube. I felt sorry for him as he said he had been stuck on the side of this busy main road for 4 hours trying to fix. He had more tyre problems later. He said that the tube I gave him punctured on the finish parcours.
Post by: Frank9755 on 11 August, 2022, 12:19:55 pm
Remember: all E roads in Romania are banned. This severely limits routing choices.
I've cycled on E-roads in Romania, in particular the E60 from Predeal to Sinaia. There were no alternatives to travel between those two villages. And, you know, it wasn't too bad. Lots of traffic, but the drivers are expecting horse carts and Roma selling stuff in the middle of the road. Their speed was surprisingly sensible. A blanket ban on E-roads seems lazy of the organizers.
The worst roads are the narrower ones with heavier traffic. I went on two permitted E-roads in RO and they were both fine as plenty of room to pass. However, the one north of Targu Jiu, where a rider was knocked off, was incredibly dangerous, and I had my closest ever pass (a few inches) just north of Severin.
Post by: morbihan on 14 August, 2022, 01:40:43 pm
Mid 60's and never failed to finish.
Thats some proper style belligerence and a heap of tenacity right there.
Post by: Frank9755 on 15 August, 2022, 06:26:53 am
Oh boy, well done Frank.
Thanks for the report too.
In my experience, TCR will take on board all feedback and adjust the event for the future as best they can while keeping the spirit of the event intact.
it really is in its infancy and has to work its way through the growing pains of the early years.
Rest up mate,
Chapeau.
At the time I thought about replying to this and saying that I thought that Lost Dot wasn't very interested in feedback and operated on a 'we know best' basis. I thought I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but Anna's comment from the Facebook group suggests my hunch was right.
(https://photos.app.goo.gl/zRhBrp5NqhdxR58W7)
Anna Haslock
It's not actually up for debate Neil. You signed up to a race with a clearly described off road parcours. There have been off road parcours on the Transcontinental Race since 2014...
I think the biggest threat to the race is this attitude, combined with a fundamental misunderstanding of the duty of care that rests with Lost Dot, legally as well as morally, when it sends riders into potentially hazardous compulsory mountain sections. If it ever came to it, their position would be shredded by, most likely, an insurance company's barrister, and it would be the end of the race.
I have massive admiration for what Anna has done, but I do think a bit more willingness to learn would help. I hope that Andrew is able to bring this.
Post by: JonBuoy on 15 August, 2022, 07:22:07 am
Oh boy, well done Frank.
Thanks for the report too.
In my experience, TCR will take on board all feedback and adjust the event for the future as best they can while keeping the spirit of the event intact.
it really is in its infancy and has to work its way through the growing pains of the early years.
Rest up mate,
Chapeau.
At the time I thought about replying to this and saying that I thought that Lost Dot wasn't very interested in feedback and operated on a 'we know best' basis. I thought I'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but Anna's comment from the Facebook group suggests my hunch was right.
(https://photos.app.goo.gl/zRhBrp5NqhdxR58W7)
Anna Haslock
It's not actually up for debate Neil. You signed up to a race with a clearly described off road parcours. There have been off road parcours on the Transcontinental Race since 2014...
I think the biggest threat to the race is this attitude, combined with a fundamental misunderstanding of the duty of care that rests with Lost Dot, legally as well as morally, when it sends riders into potentially hazardous compulsory mountain sections. If it ever came to it, their position would be shredded by, most likely, an insurance company's barrister, and it would be the end of the race.
I have massive admiration for what Anna has done, but I do think a bit more willingness to learn would help. I hope that Andrew is able to bring this.
I went onto Facebook to understand the context and was greeted by this:
Quote
An admin turned off commenting for this post.
Post by: Frank9755 on 15 August, 2022, 09:21:54 am
Anna's final comment before closing it down seems to confirm that she doesn't understand the duty of care regarding a compulsory section. Saying other bits of the event are also dangerous due to cars doesn't take away the need for there to be a risk assessment carried out and plans out in place for identified risks.
On a factual point, there are not adequate resupply options immediately before the parcours. Also you can research the track as much as you want but all you will get is accounts / videos of people doing it on mountain bikes, which really doesn't tell you much. Hence at least two of the top riders (Christoph Strasser and Ian To) went out to ride it themselves beforehand.
Post by: Notfromrugby on 15 August, 2022, 12:46:05 pm
I think the biggest threat to the race is this attitude, combined with a fundamental misunderstanding of the duty of care that rests with Lost Dot, legally as well as morally, when it sends riders into potentially hazardous compulsory mountain sections. If it ever came to it, their position would be shredded by, most likely, an insurance company's barrister, and it would be the end of the race.
Yep, I think you are right.
Post by: Nuncio on 15 August, 2022, 12:51:34 pm
There are still a handful or riders plugging along. Richard Lake has just crossed the Danube. His latest YouTube offering describes his nightmares on-and-around the CP4 parcours, which he did east-west (which he acknowledges was a bad decision, while also saying the other way wouldn't have been much better): drowned phone, routing problems, dogs, heavy rain, punctures etc. It sounds as if he's done a lot of walking after CP4, not just on the parcours but to get to somewhere for bike repairs. But he's still going...
Post by: Frank9755 on 15 August, 2022, 04:09:55 pm
Doing that parcours uphill would be very hard. Probably take a full day. Lots of it would need to be walked, given diminished power.
I don't know anything about Richard and why he's so far behind. Has he had problems, riding slowly, or just doing short days?
Post by: L CC on 15 August, 2022, 04:19:55 pm
I don't know anything about Richard and why he's so far behind. Has he had problems, riding slowly, or just doing short days?Everything you could ever need or want to know (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Sn5BSyeebQdMJtQ4jVqsw)
Post by: Nuncio on 15 August, 2022, 04:40:10 pm
Thanks! I think the main thing with interviews like that is not to try to say anything really clever, but to avoid making a fool of yourself by saying something really stupid! If I managed that, I'm happy!If it was conducted within hours of your having cycled 4,200km+ and your probably still being 'a bit tired', then anything other than an incoherent blabbering would be an achievement in my book. Your point about the differences between your last attempt and this one re- preparation and experience was cogently made.
The emotion of some of the 'just finished' interviews comes through clearly and is quite affecting; the ones 'recollected in tranquility', like Strasser's, less so, but still facinating.
Post by: Frank9755 on 15 August, 2022, 05:17:11 pm
I don't know anything about Richard and why he's so far behind. Has he had problems, riding slowly, or just doing short days?Everything you could ever need or want to know (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Sn5BSyeebQdMJtQ4jVqsw)
Thanks. Unfortunately my life is too short and my curiosity not deep enough to watch multiple videos! I know I'm getting old but I have such nostalgia for the days when people just wrote things down!
Post by: Frank9755 on 15 August, 2022, 05:20:19 pm
Thanks! I think the main thing with interviews like that is not to try to say anything really clever, but to avoid making a fool of yourself by saying something really stupid! If I managed that, I'm happy!If it was conducted within hours of your having cycled 4,200km+ and your probably still being 'a bit tired', then anything other than an incoherent blabbering would be an achievement in my book. Your point about the differences between your last attempt and this one re- preparation and experience was cogently made.
The emotion of some of the 'just finished' interviews comes through clearly and is quite affecting; the ones 'recollected in tranquility', like Strasser's, less so, but still facinating.
It was about an hour after I had finished and just at the end of my second beer, I recall.
If they had tried to interview me after the finish in 2016, I expect I might have been far less coherent!
Post by: markcjagar on 15 August, 2022, 05:38:11 pm
Anna Haslock
It's not actually up for debate Neil. You signed up to a race with a clearly described off road parcours. There have been off road parcours on the Transcontinental Race since 2014...
I had been considering applying for next years race but that has made me a lot more hesitant
Post by: L CC on 15 August, 2022, 05:46:00 pm
Same!I don't know anything about Richard and why he's so far behind. Has he had problems, riding slowly, or just doing short days?Everything you could ever need or want to know (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Sn5BSyeebQdMJtQ4jVqsw)
Thanks. Unfortunately my life is too short and my curiosity not deep enough to watch multiple videos! I know I'm getting old but I have such nostalgia for the days when people just wrote things down!
Post by: αdαmsκι on 15 August, 2022, 06:21:29 pm
After LEL I was chatting with some Dutch and German riders about tcr. It's never been something I have fancied because to be competitive would seem to mean riding fast main roads. And if not trying to at least finish for the party then why bother? You say as much below:
On the more negative side, I now have doubts over the viability of this format with free route between controls. Others have been saying for a while that it is dangerous as it forces riders to use the busiest roads to be competitive, and I now agree.
Compared to 2016 and 2019 there was much more use of the main roads of Eastern Europe, which is where the main issues lie.
Years ago (2014) I did a solo lightweight tour from Brussels to kefalonia (Greece) and had lots of 200+ km days. It wasn't TCR but was great. Riding some crazy small roads in Serbia, for instance, was brilliant. Smashing down main roads would have been a different experience.
Post by: Frank9755 on 15 August, 2022, 07:08:45 pm
For all my misgivings about aspects of it, I still think the TCR is the most fabulous event, and just about the most exciting thing I've ever done. And it's a fabulous community to feel part of. However, this edition has persuaded me that, having been lucky enough to complete it twice, I should rest on my laurels and leave it to younger, braver and faster riders!
I think the future is defined route events, which can take those back roads through Serbia and elsewhere, which are wonderful to ride. People like James Hayden have been saying this for a while, but it took my experience on this one for me to realise.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 15 August, 2022, 09:15:47 pm
Post by: Nuncio on 15 August, 2022, 09:33:05 pm
I don't know anything about Richard and why he's so far behind. Has he had problems, riding slowly, or just doing short days?I think I read that he did the Stelvio, which might not mean a lot in the scheme of things but might give an indication of one aspect of his approach to the race. As might the existence of all those YouTube audio logs.
Post by: Frank9755 on 16 August, 2022, 01:07:22 pm
Is the last parcours off road?
Virtually all on road
Post by: Frank9755 on 16 August, 2022, 01:09:49 pm
I don't know anything about Richard and why he's so far behind. Has he had problems, riding slowly, or just doing short days?I think I read that he did the Stelvio, which might not mean a lot in the scheme of things but might give an indication of one aspect of his approach to the race. As might the existence of all those YouTube audio logs.
The Stelvio would probably add an hour vs the Umbrail, so filming and faffing more likely explanations, or maybe he was riding 9 to 5. It looks like he put in a big last day, so could most likely have finished a few days quicker if he had wanted to.
Post by: jdsnape on 16 August, 2022, 01:12:09 pm
I think the future is defined route events, which can take those back roads through Serbia and elsewhere, which are wonderful to ride. People like James Hayden have been saying this for a while, but it took my experience on this one for me to realise.
I can totally understand this, but would loosing the ability to plan the route take away a large part of the fun? I say this as someone who has never attempted a ride this long, but a huge part of what I enjoy about DIY audax is the route planning, and then the achievement of finishing a route I've designed and seeing where it matched up to expectations and where it fell short.
As someone tentatively thinking of applying some time, I feel like if they made it mandatory route it would change what it is quite significantly. Perhaps there's a compromise about what roads are allowed, but I think guess that gets very complicated
Post by: arabella on 16 August, 2022, 01:43:34 pm
All aim to arrive at <finish> by data/time.
Must go through certain locations
Plan your own route
Leave yourself enough time to ride safely
Bonus "points" for the CP bits (optional)
chapeau to all those who completed, regardless of how long it took.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 16 August, 2022, 02:28:33 pm
Anna Haslock
It's not actually up for debate Neil. You signed up to a race with a clearly described off road parcours. There have been off road parcours on the Transcontinental Race since 2014...
I think mostly this shows ignorance of cycling. Yes. Under Mike there was unpaved sections of parcour. But they are (at least this is my understanding) best described as "fast rolling gravel roads". It may slow you slightly if you have 25mm slicks. But you'll still make good progress and it won't be dangerous.
Then we get 2018 edition. The first one without Mike. That parcour in Serbia. I don't think anyone managed to ride all the way up it. In the race. One guy left his bike at the bottom and just walked up with his tracker. When it was suggested it was a bit extreme. I was told Juliana and Emily had ridden up it just fine. Sure. But that wasn't with a 3000km run up...
Then we go to 2019. CP2 parcour, again in Serbia. Again did anyone actually manage to ride the whole boulder field. I mean route? I've only seen pictures of people carrying bikes over large rocks.
And then 2022. CP4. Given the number of incredibly skilled riders who crashed. The fact that the fastest time of anyone was about 4 hours. And most were 6+. Shows that it was inappropriate for an event like this. Esp with such a long run up.
There is a wider issue among the cycling industry/community that we haven't actually worked out what gravel actually means. And it covers everything from the white roads of the Strada bianci, up to what ever the fuck that road in Serbia in 2017 was, and more.
One of the reasons I don't think I'll take another go at the TCR (aside from the massive time commitment it requires to train) is this attitude that all off road is the same. It's always had off road. So fuck it lets give you a section straight out of the silk road mountain race, hike abike with 3000k run up!
I hope the new race director will have a better understanding of what gravel is and isn't. What makes a good parcour. And what doesn't.
The distance is the challenge. There's no need to make it even harder by throwing in gratuitously hard sections.
J
Post by: αdαmsκι on 16 August, 2022, 05:03:46 pm
Post by: JonBuoy on 16 August, 2022, 05:22:10 pm
Post by: Frank9755 on 16 August, 2022, 05:47:00 pm
Fastest guy did it in 3:15. It took me 8 hours as I walked a fair bit of it. Average of people I spoke to was about 6 hours.
Post by: Frank9755 on 16 August, 2022, 05:50:04 pm
I think the future is defined route events, which can take those back roads through Serbia and elsewhere, which are wonderful to ride. People like James Hayden have been saying this for a while, but it took my experience on this one for me to realise.
I can totally understand this, but would loosing the ability to plan the route take away a large part of the fun? I say this as someone who has never attempted a ride this long, but a huge part of what I enjoy about DIY audax is the route planning, and then the achievement of finishing a route I've designed and seeing where it matched up to expectations and where it fell short.
As someone tentatively thinking of applying some time, I feel like if they made it mandatory route it would change what it is quite significantly. Perhaps there's a compromise about what roads are allowed, but I think guess that gets very complicated
Yes, that's why, until two weeks ago, I was in favour of the current format! I don't think it's likely to change just yet though. It will probably take an incident or two. However, some people really hate the route planning aspect and would be glad to see the end of it. It certainly is a massive time sink.
Where we are now is some roads are allowed, some are not.
Post by: 24hourmaths on 16 August, 2022, 09:39:20 pm
How many km was the off road section this year? I'm curious what sort of average speed people were riding that section at.
https://www.strava.com/segments/32564598 (https://www.strava.com/segments/32564598)
Post by: 24hourmaths on 16 August, 2022, 09:42:12 pm
There is also a massive vertical altitude change downhill - the final 25km or so is nearly all free-wheeling (also all pretty much continual braking)
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 19 August, 2022, 10:31:26 am
I'm enjoying following James Houston who is plugging along on his Brompton. His Instagram posts give a really good idea of the landscape.
Is it public? If so do you have a link?
He finished about 10 hours ago :thumbsup:
Post by: morbihan on 19 August, 2022, 12:38:56 pm
Christophe Strasser did it at 8.3 kph and he had already ridden it on a recce.
There is also a massive vertical altitude change downhill - the final 25km or so is nearly all free-wheeling (also all pretty much continual braking)
I peeked at Fiona's strava, and it looks like she covered the parcour at about 11.5 kph.
Interestingly Christoph, pre rode the section and still selected 28mm tires for this "adventure" race. Im not sure what Fiona was using.
I guess he deemed it sufficiently short and built his set up on what he was confident with for the other sections of the race. All in the game in my view and part of those decisions to made prior to starting.
I strongly disagree with your views on the parlours inclusion Frank & others.
Admittedly I didn't ride it, but it would have concerned me far far less than, for example, busy roads. (I had routed wherever possible on minor roads/bike paths etc)
I was looking forward to that section, to add texture to the experience, though with some trepidation about the sheepdogs.
The closest I can compare it to personally would be the "lost in the gravel" experience after Blejnica. That was about 90 odd km and much of unrideable.
I was pretty desperate at the time but more from frustration that I was off course and Jo was waiting for me at the finish, so I felt I had let her down. It likely cost me a GC finish too
Looking back though, it was a life enriching experience that won't be forgotten.
https://www.strava.com/activities/1769728752
Post by: αdαmsκι on 19 August, 2022, 02:38:30 pm
https://www.strava.com/segments/32564598 (https://www.strava.com/segments/32564598)
Jezz. "Only" 44.3 km so 2.1 km more than a marathon. I realize running on road is different to riding on boulders but my marathon PB is 2:34!
Post by: Frank9755 on 22 August, 2022, 09:44:30 am
Christophe Strasser did it at 8.3 kph and he had already ridden it on a recce.
There is also a massive vertical altitude change downhill - the final 25km or so is nearly all free-wheeling (also all pretty much continual braking)
I peeked at Fiona's strava, and it looks like she covered the parcour at about 11.5 kph.
Interestingly Christoph, pre rode the section and still selected 28mm tires for this "adventure" race. Im not sure what Fiona was using.
I guess he deemed it sufficiently short and built his set up on what he was confident with for the other sections of the race. All in the game in my view and part of those decisions to made prior to starting.
I strongly disagree with your views on the parlours inclusion Frank & others.
Admittedly I didn't ride it, but it would have concerned me far far less than, for example, busy roads. (I had routed wherever possible on minor roads/bike paths etc)
I was looking forward to that section, to add texture to the experience, though with some trepidation about the sheepdogs.
The closest I can compare it to personally would be the "lost in the gravel" experience after Blejnica. That was about 90 odd km and much of unrideable.
I was pretty desperate at the time but more from frustration that I was off course and Jo was waiting for me at the finish, so I felt I had let her down. It likely cost me a GC finish too
Looking back though, it was a life enriching experience that won't be forgotten.
https://www.strava.com/activities/1769728752
The batshit parcours and dangerous main roads are not either/or, they are part of the same problem which is that the event isn't safe. Further, it is unsafe by design. Anna doesn't see this as a problem, so nothing will happen until someone gets badly hurt, again. It's a wonderful event, I have loved my involvement with it and I believe Anna did an amazing job to keep it going after Mike's death. But it needs to be made safe.
By far the biggest danger is the use of main roads in Eastern Europe, which is implicitly necessary to be competitive and hit the time windows. Some, not all, are unsafe to cycle on by design. I think it was six people were knocked off their bikes on those roads. In addition, loads of us were forced off, multiple times, by overtaking trucks or cars driving into the space that we had expected to occupy. When you get forced off a main road there is no guarantee there is anywhere safe for you to end up, let alone when you get knocked off. Each one of these incidents could have been a death or serious injury.
The batshit parcours are also unsafe but in a different way. For a 4,000km road ride it is not sensible to use equipment designed for a 40km mountain bike section so everyone is riding them on a road bike with road tyres, which means they are not able to control their bike safely. They also have luggage which makes the bike harder to control. And it happens at 2000m altitude where weather conditions can change quickly and become very nasty. And riders have equipment appropriate for summer in Europe, not bad weather in mountains. In the UK we hear frequently about people getting themselves into trouble in mountain conditions by going up without the right equipment and without appreciating that conditions can and do change suddenly at altitude. The point is made that such people are not only stupid but selfish because they put the people who have to come and rescue them in danger as well as themselves. Some local mountain bikers saw my bike and basically told me off for being up there with unsuitable equipment, and I couldn't defend my actions because they were right.
What Anna and her apologists do not recognise is that, in setting a compulsory section, the TCR owes a duty of care to the riders. When I organise a 100km reliability ride in the Chilterns, I have to do a risk assessment and say what I have done to manage each of the risks. I don't know if the TCR did a risk assessment of the parcours but Anna certainly didn't mention it when I asked, no-one has ever seen it, and things that would be obvious mitigations to obvious risks - such as passing on info on water availability - were not done, so it seems unilikely to me.
Virtually every rider I met shared these concerns similarly about the parcours and the merits of its inclusion. Most don't want to say anthing controversial in their blogs or instagram posts, but Ulrich Bartholomeus, Pawel Pulawski and Christoph Strasser all said it was not appropriate for it to be included and I have not seen anyone who rode it say they thought it was a good idea. Even Anna said that people projecting their own past adventures onto this parcours was inappropriate as this was very different.
Post by: JonBuoy on 25 August, 2022, 08:16:49 am
I like the funky river basin maps!
Post by: felstedrider on 31 August, 2022, 11:51:46 am
https://www.insidetrishow.com/episode/michaelbroadwith
Post by: teethgrinder on 31 August, 2022, 04:18:04 pm
Christophe Strasser did it at 8.3 kph and he had already ridden it on a recce.
There is also a massive vertical altitude change downhill - the final 25km or so is nearly all free-wheeling (also all pretty much continual braking)
I peeked at Fiona's strava, and it looks like she covered the parcour at about 11.5 kph.
Interestingly Christoph, pre rode the section and still selected 28mm tires for this "adventure" race. Im not sure what Fiona was using.
I guess he deemed it sufficiently short and built his set up on what he was confident with for the other sections of the race. All in the game in my view and part of those decisions to made prior to starting.
I strongly disagree with your views on the parlours inclusion Frank & others.
Admittedly I didn't ride it, but it would have concerned me far far less than, for example, busy roads. (I had routed wherever possible on minor roads/bike paths etc)
I was looking forward to that section, to add texture to the experience, though with some trepidation about the sheepdogs.
The closest I can compare it to personally would be the "lost in the gravel" experience after Blejnica. That was about 90 odd km and much of unrideable.
I was pretty desperate at the time but more from frustration that I was off course and Jo was waiting for me at the finish, so I felt I had let her down. It likely cost me a GC finish too
Looking back though, it was a life enriching experience that won't be forgotten.
https://www.strava.com/activities/1769728752
The batshit parcours and dangerous main roads are not either/or, they are part of the same problem which is that the event isn't safe. Further, it is unsafe by design. Anna doesn't see this as a problem, so nothing will happen until someone gets badly hurt, again. It's a wonderful event, I have loved my involvement with it and I believe Anna did an amazing job to keep it going after Mike's death. But it needs to be made safe.
By far the biggest danger is the use of main roads in Eastern Europe, which is implicitly necessary to be competitive and hit the time windows. Some, not all, are unsafe to cycle on by design. I think it was six people were knocked off their bikes on those roads. In addition, loads of us were forced off, multiple times, by overtaking trucks or cars driving into the space that we had expected to occupy. When you get forced off a main road there is no guarantee there is anywhere safe for you to end up, let alone when you get knocked off. Each one of these incidents could have been a death or serious injury.
The batshit parcours are also unsafe but in a different way. For a 4,000km road ride it is not sensible to use equipment designed for a 40km mountain bike section so everyone is riding them on a road bike with road tyres, which means they are not able to control their bike safely. They also have luggage which makes the bike harder to control. And it happens at 2000m altitude where weather conditions can change quickly and become very nasty. And riders have equipment appropriate for summer in Europe, not bad weather in mountains. In the UK we hear frequently about people getting themselves into trouble in mountain conditions by going up without the right equipment and without appreciating that conditions can and do change suddenly at altitude. The point is made that such people are not only stupid but selfish because they put the people who have to come and rescue them in danger as well as themselves. Some local mountain bikers saw my bike and basically told me off for being up there with unsuitable equipment, and I couldn't defend my actions because they were right.
What Anna and her apologists do not recognise is that, in setting a compulsory section, the TCR owes a duty of care to the riders. When I organise a 100km reliability ride in the Chilterns, I have to do a risk assessment and say what I have done to manage each of the risks. I don't know if the TCR did a risk assessment of the parcours but Anna certainly didn't mention it when I asked, no-one has ever seen it, and things that would be obvious mitigations to obvious risks - such as passing on info on water availability - were not done, so it seems unilikely to me.
Virtually every rider I met shared these concerns similarly about the parcours and the merits of its inclusion. Most don't want to say anthing controversial in their blogs or instagram posts, but Ulrich Bartholomeus, Pawel Pulawski and Christoph Strasser all said it was not appropriate for it to be included and I have not seen anyone who rode it say they thought it was a good idea. Even Anna said that people projecting their own past adventures onto this parcours was inappropriate as this was very different.
:thumbsup:
Partly why I won't ride. Plenty of events with mandatory routes that are nice, so I don't see any need to enter an event where using horrible roads gives an advantage. Mandatory parcours just seems gratuotous on an otherwise open route.
Post by: Ivo on 31 August, 2022, 07:38:40 pm